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Pod Save America - Episode 80

9.18.2017 “Sean Spicer is good now.”

“The GOP makes one last run at repealing ObamaCare, Democrats look for a message that works, and Trump delivers his first United Nations speech. Then HuffPost editor-in-chief Lydia Polgreen joins Jon, Jon, and Tommy to talk about the state of American democracy and the media, and DeRay McKesson discusses the protest against police violence in St. Louis.” (01:10:11)

[MUSIC]

Jon Favreau: The presenting sponsor of Pod Save America is Blue Apron.

Jon Lovett: Blue Apron.

Tommy Vietor: Blue Apron.

JF: They now offer 30 minute meals, which are meals every week that take 30 minutes or less to cook.

TV: Oh, I was confused by that.

JF: Designed with your busy schedule in mind and made with the same flavor and farm fresh ingredients you know and love.

JL: I thought it was 30 tiny meals.

[Laughter]

TV: Oh no, you thought it was ‘minute’ meals?

JL: I thought it was 30 ‘minute’ meals.

[Laughter]

JF: Get 30 dollars off your first meal free with free shipping by going to blueapron.com/crooked. I think I threw an extra ‘free’ in there. Blue Apron, a better way to…

JL: Sean Spicer is good now.

JF: Cook.

0:00:35

[MUSIC]

0:00:43

TV: [Quietly] We are still in Hillary Clinton’s basement.

[Laughter]

TV: If someone could send some food and water.

JF: Welcome to Pod Save America. I’m Jon Favreau.

JL: I’m Jon Lovett.

TV: I’m Tommy Vietor.

JF: On the pod today, in studio, we’ll talk to the editor-in-chief of the Huffington Post, Lydia Polgreen. And later we’ll call the host of Crooked Media’s Pod Save the People, DeRay McKesson. Lovett, how was Lovett or Leave It on Friday? Good?

JL: It was a great episode.

JF: Should people download it, or no?

JL: People should download it.

JF: Great.

JL: We had Guy Branum. We had Erin Ryan, who was hilarious. We had Julissa Arce. We had Cyrus Habib-

JF: All the Crooked Media friends.

JL: Lieutenant Governor of Washington.

TV: He’s really funny.

JL: He is really funny, I like Cyrus a lot. He’s a friend of mine and I was excited for people to hear what he’s like.

JF: Cool. Tommy, who’s on Pod Save the World this week?

TV: I do an episode on some pretty horrible things going on in Myanmar. There is in fact what’s been called an ethnic cleansing, or potentially genocide, of a group of people called the Rohingya who are a Muslim minority group. It is one of those issues that is, the more you read about it, the more brutally hard it is to comprehend that this is actually happen. But I do think it’s important not to look away from this stuff and see if you can bring attention to it and maybe get the international community to do something. So, tune in.

JF: Great. Glad you’re bringing some attention to that. Okay, so before we get into real stuff. A lot of people on Twitter have been asking for a quick Lovett rant on Sean Spicer at the Emmys last night.

JL: Well I almost- I almost didn’t make it in today cause I’m still laughing so hard.

[Laughter]

JL: Cause it’s so funny. Sean Spicer. Remember when he lied? He’s hilarious.

TV: Colbert is so well equipped to have Sean Spicer on and rake him over the coals for being a guy who had no morals and for being a huge liar. Just to like, have him come out and joke about lying at the podium from day one. I didn’t think- I don’t think it’s funny. I don’t think he should get, like, that glossed over on his resume going forward.

JF: Yeah, what’s weird about it to me is that Colbert was on Kimmel last week and Kimmel brought up Spicer, cause Kimmel had Spicer on, and Colbert was very tough on him.

TV: Yeah.

JF: And said he doesn’t seem to want redemption. He doesn’t want it, he didn’t seem to want to apologize.

TV: That’s exactly right.

JF: So, I figured that, you know, that Colbert would- would not do that. But, it’s just weird. Like we’re gonna- like there’s gonna be no penalty now.

TV: We have some agency in this whole penalty question so let’s keep at it.

JF: Yeah.

JL: Oh, by the way, I booked Sean.

[Laughter]

JL: But, no, but it’s like, honestly you know, an anti-Trump Emmys where Spicer comes on stage. I don’t- doesn’t really care. I don’t think it’s funny. What bothered me more was the deluge of selfies, kind of, coming over the Twitter all night, of like, “Here’s Sean Spicer at the Governor’s Ball! And here he is here and here he is there! What a good time he’s having! Getting-” All these sel- you know-

TV: I didn’t look at a single one of those.

JL: I didn’t care for it.

TV: Enough about this.

JF: No, it’s- you know, it’s, one more thing about that. Because everyone’s like “Spicer lied about crowd size and that’s why he’s bad.” Spicer lied about crowd size and that was the joke. That wasn’t, let’s remember, that’s not the biggest lie. Like, the worse- the more damaging lie is, he defended Trump’s lie about 3 million people voting illegally in this country. He defended Trump saying that Barack Obama committed a felony by-

JF and TV: wiretapping him.

JF: Like we just, we forget these things and now we’re just like, you know.

TV: Well, yeah, and he also-

JF: These aren’t small lies.

TV: He thought Donald Trump was a disgusting person until he was in charge, then he went and worked for him. He’s the worst of D.C.

JF: He told all the reporters in D.C. before he worked for Trump how awful Trump was. Every reporter knows it, every reporter’s told the stories about it. And then he went to work for him anyway.

JL: Sean Spicer doesn’t get to be in on the fucking joke.

TV: He’s gross.

JL: That’s it.

TV: He is the joke.

JF: Alright. Okay, so now, Graham-Cassidy. The Republicans in the Senate are making one last ditch effort on making health insurance unaffordable for tens of millions of Americans. They have until September 30th to pass a bill through the reconciliation process, which means they only need 50 votes. After that date, they need 60. The bill is Graham-Cassidy. I am wearing my ‘repeal and go fuck yourself’ t-shirt today to show how…

JL: Your resolve.

JF: My resolve.

[Laughter]

JF: And how dangerous this is.

TV: That’s leadership.

JF: We talked a little bit about what the bill would do on Thursday. But just to review: eliminates the individual mandate -- which would immediately drive up premiums, send the individual insurance market into a death spiral. It would allow states to eliminate essential benefits like chemo coverage, maternity coverage, prescription drugs. Eliminate protections for preexisting conditions. And then basically, it eliminates the Affordable Care Act subsidies and the Medicaid expansion, gives that money to states minus 400 billion dollars over the next 10 years. And then eliminates all funding by 2026. That’s the deal.

JL: So, it’s radical.

JF: Radical.

JL: It’s radical.

JF: It is full- it is a full repeal effort.

JL: It is a full repeal. It’s certainly not a compromise. We’re protected a little bit by the fact that this is kind of their fall back, third, final attempt at something because we were dealing with ultimately a repeal effort that was rooted in the structure of Obamacare this entire time, right. All the different versions we saw, but for skinny repeal which was that crazy last-ditch effort just to get to the House bill three months ago -- or two months ago, the last time we were dealing with this -- but this is a fundamentally different thing and, had they actually done this through a regular process, could’ve been something that they could’ve really rallied people behind in this significant way because it basically takes Obamacare and it turns it into less generous block grants. And basically puts it on the states to figure out what they do with healthcare. The many problems with this are, one, the way they deal with the Medicaid expansion is fucking nuts. So basically, 30 states expanded Medicaid and 20 states didn’t. Those were a lot of rural states and conservative states that refused to do it even though the money was basically free, which punished a lot of their voters. Well, what happens in this bill? Well, it takes all the money that went to Medicaid expansion that went to states that expanded and states that doesn’t- didn’t and just divides it up evenly as if no expansion had ever taken place. Which is just a giant wealth transfer from states like California and New York and even Kentucky, states that did the right thing, and transfers it to all the states where their governors and legislatures didn’t care enough about their poor and minority population to do anything about it to get their healthcare. It would be devastating.

TV: That is awful. Right now, we’re short of 50 votes, right? But I think the thing that makes a lot of people nervous is that this is a bill sponsored by Lindsay Graham in part. McCain’s waffling about it. Dean Heller’s already on board. What I don’t get is, McCain’s whole argument against the last round is that it didn’t go through regular order. There were no amendments, there were no committee process. There was nothing done the way it’s supposed to be done in the Senate. I don’t get how he could make that big, bold stand and then jump on board this thing.

JF: So if you listen to him on Sunday -- he was on Face the Nation -- and John Dickerson asked him about this, and he said on Face the Nation, “We should have a bill go through regular order- “

TV: I heard that.

JF: “There should be a bipartisan process. And I think the bipartisan effort being undertaken by Lamar Alexander and Patti Murray should come to the floor for a vote.” That’s what- he just said that yesterday, on Sunday. Now in other statements he said he likes Graham-Cassidy and he said ultimately, he’ll do what his governor tells him to do, Governor Ducey of Arizona. You should note that, after what Lovett was just saying, under this plan Arizona loses about a billion dollars. Arizona’s another state that would get hurt. You wouldn’t imagine that Ducey would do it unless of course they pay him off. But –

[Laughter]

JF: There’s a lot of focus on McCain here. [TV: Yeah] But here’s the deal, Cassidy’s running around saying they have 49 votes. That’s one short of 50 so that’s very scary. Rand Paul seems like a hard no. You never wanna count on Rand Paul because he’s upset from the right. But he’s now, over the last couple days, tweeted nine times about this proposal. Including one where he says it’s bad because it keeps Obamacare and redistributes money from Democratic states to Republican states. Which is an argument that people from the left are making, too and it’s a correct argument.

JL: Yeah! Correct.

JF: But it’s like, if Rand Paul was gonna flip, you wouldn’t imagine that he’d just keep tweeting every day about horrible this is. But of course, we all remember Rand Paul was a hard no last time around and then McConnell promised him a vote on clean repeal, so that’s why he voted for skinny repeal.

JL: Yeah, I mean we have seen Republican Senators say things that should make it impossible for them to flip, and then they flip.

JF: And they do.

JL: I mean, that’s what Dean Hiller- Dean Heller did. Rand Paul’s done that in the past. Ted Cruz. All these guys make these grand statements to try to help them in the negosiatio- negotiation and then- I almost said ‘negosiation.”

TV: I know. I think you also left out Dean’s honorific.

JL: Oh, Dirty Dean Heller?

JF: Yeah, what’s going on?

JL: He’s a dirty politician.

TV: He’s Dirty Dean Heller.

JL: He’s a dirty politician, Dean Heller.

JF: But basically, we need- if Collins and- Collins and Murkowski have been very quiet. It’s hard to imagine that they’d say yes. But if we have Collins and Murkowski and Paul, it doesn’t matter what McCain does. We need three ‘no’s. So- and Alaska’s also one of the states that loses a bunch of money over the next 10 years. And nothing has really changed for the two of them since when they stood against the last proposal, which was on substance not on process, like McCain. So, you would hope that Collins and Murkowski are in there. We need one more, Paul’s a possibility. But that’s- basically is this is all to say, it’s scary again and everyone’s got to get to the phones. I know that’s annoying to hear, but it’s true.

JL: It is. But it’s, you know-

JF: We have to do it.

TV: We hate ourselves for saying it.

JF: It’s a constant struggle, people. So, what’s gonna happen here. McConnell will not call this for a vote unless he’s got 50. They’ve- he has pressed the CBO to give a score for this thing, even though the CBO was busy was working on extending Children’s Health Insurance Program.

JL: [Laughing] The CBO, man. There’s some guy deep within the CBO who is exhausted, he’s got an ashtray with tons of cigarettes, like every- every month he gets a call from McConnell who says, “You need to do six months of analysis in two fucking days.”

JF: Well, here’s what- here’s what’s truly scary about it. They think that- the CBO only is required to come up with a score about how much it costs. And they may not have time to figure out what the coverage loss is for this bill. So, they might give a CBO score that’s just about how much it costs without any coverage numbers. Which is truly fucked up and if you are voting-

TV: It’s unconscionable to vote for this.

JF: If you are voting for a bill- especially for McCain, talking about regular order. You’re gonna vote for a bill where you don’t know the impact?

JL: He can’t! He just can’t. Once again- it’s the same fucking- like, the bill is bad. It’s a bad bill. It’s yet another bad replacement bill. Once again, it’s like, they can’t- they don’t care about their conservative principles to even put something together that achieves some kind of an end while being- you wanna turn it into a block grant, you want the states to be in charge? You come up with this crazy, jury rigged, dumb fucking way to do it that’ll- that could never become law. Fine. The bill is bad. But once again, reforming a sixth of the economy, tens of millions of people’s lives, and they’re like, “We think we can get it done the last week of September. We got two days! We got two days!”

JF: Well it shows that they’re trying to-

JL: Ride or die!

JF: They’re trying to sneak it through because they know that if they had a public debate about it, they would lose. Which, again, this is a reminder, you know, Trump’s bad. We all- everything’s about Trump. This is not about Trump. This is a bunch of, you know, Republicans who’ve even called out Trump, like Lindsay Graham. And they are doing this very bad thing. So, when you go vote, it’s not all about Trump. It’s about these fucking Republicans in Congress.

JL: One story as a proof point for how serious this effort was, I think it was the Politico story, it said that Trump was asking about the bill at Bedminster. Which I just think is like, the lowest- he’s like, what’s happening? I think there might be some kind of a health care thing.

TV: He’s seized with this. He’s seized with this challenge to the point where he’s just first inquiring about it while on- while playing golf.

JF: Yeah, so, anyway. Indivisibleguide.com. You can go there and find ways you can help. Most of it’s gonna be phone calls, but there are gonna be some events as well. Also follow Ben Wikler from moveon.org on Twitter. He’s got a couple long threads on everything you can do and steps you can take. So, everybody make a few phone calls and then- here’s the thing, once we get to September 30th, if this doesn’t pass, then we can finally celebrate in a way we couldn’t even celebrate in the summer.

TV: Until McConnell changes the rules.

JL: Yeah, until they change the rules and do it anyway. [crosstalk] Look killing this thing, it’s harder than killing the clown from fucking It and it’s gonna keep crawling out of that well until-

TV: I will not be watching the remake of that movie. It ruined my life as a child.

JF: Nor will I. Nor will I watch mother! Which sounds really fucking awful. Lovett’s excited.

JL: I’m gonna go see it.

JF: Emily wants to see it, too.

JL: Emily and I are gonna go see it- oh we talk- Emily and I have already been texting. Don’t even worry about it.

JF: Great. Alright, let’s talk about what the fuck’s going on with Donald Trump. Over the weekend our bipartisan, independent, deal making president had quite a Sunday morning tweetstorm. Which culminated in him retweeting a gif [dear god he pronounced it with a soft G how DARE HE BETRAY ME LIKE THIS] of Trump’s golf ball hitting Hillary Clinton [this literally feels like it happened a million years ago and it was only?? Two weeks?? WTH.] which was originally tweeted by someone who’s tweeted racist and anti-Semitic garbage in the past. Of course.

TV: What a surprise! Course it is.

JF: I just- I wanted to bring this up because…it’s like, no one’s talking about it today. We’re all sort of moved past it. I mean, that is a crazy thing to do. It is- it is like fantasizing about political violence by the President of the United States against his former female political opponent. What?

TV: He’s a moron.

JL: It’s just like, the kind of thing that makes the dumbest person laugh. Like, “Hahaha a golf ball hit her. Hah.”

JF: But it’s the kind of thing that makes the dumbest person laugh if it’s like, shared on Facebook by your crazy uncle.

JL: Yeah, it’s a crazy uncle thing.

JF: You know, it’s just - there’s just no thought that this is the President of the United States and that there’s all kinds of other implications. Right.

JL: Yeah, I mean what else is there to say-

JF: I know there’s nothing else to say.

JL: Like it’s not even – it’s not a new low. Like, he’s joked about her being fucking killed during the election. He does this all the time. He- you know, this is who he is. Like it’s now- yeah, he tweeted about her getting hit in the back with a golf ball and falling down cause he thinks it’s hilarious cause he’s a dumb, mean spirited, fucking dotty old racist. What do you want? That’s what he is. He thinks it’s funny! He doesn’t- we’ve never even seen him fucking laugh! He’s never laughed! He’s never laughed! The one thing, maybe he chuckled to himself.

JF: He laughs. Yeah, he laughs when he like mocks people and he laughs about it.

TV: When Sessions cries.

JF: This brings up a Politico piece from last week that we didn’t have time to cover, but it’s relevant. It’s called “Teflon Don confounds Democrats.” It basically digs into a series of private focus groups and internal polls conducted by Democratic strategists in campaigns. Polls of swing voters, independents. So, there’s good news and bad news in this poll, start with the bad news. Bad news is, Trump is still viewed as an outsider shaking up the system. They think he’s bringing about change. He’s getting some credit on the economy. People are unimpressed about the fact that he lies. They’re not so much into the Russia investigation. They don’t think Charlottesville is as big of a problem as we think. And there’s some bad news in the Democratic policies that people have been proposing: free college didn’t poll so well, 15-dollar minimum wage didn’t poll great. Medicare for all tests better, but there’s some skepticism. What do we think about this?

JL: You know, I-

JF: It’s a good level set because we all-

JL: Yeah, I think a dose of skepticism is needed. Like I think that’s important. You know, the piece makes this point that like, if Democrats think they’re on a walk because of Trump to, like, taking back the House and making these big gains, then they should think otherwise. The truth is, I don’t think a lot of Democrats think that. I don’t think we’re all feeling super great in how easy it’s gonna be to win the House. I think everybody recognizes that it’s really hard. And at the same time, it is one of those Politico pieces that you can just feel a conclusion searching for evidence as it goes along, to kind of tell a story about how Donald Trump is, is- you know, “Teflon Don” is usually- isn’t really what you would call somebody who has a 35% approval rating, right? It’s sort of- that’s somebody to whom everything has stuck. That’s a cast iron pot with a lot of stuff grilled to it. You made a grilled cheese and didn’t flip it early enough.

TV: That was my take too, like I think that, I think that was Bill Burton’s quote in- the final quote of the piece was Bill Burton being like, “The guy’s at 38%. It’s not going well.”

JF: He said everything’s working.

TV: Yeah, taking back the House is not gonna be won or lost just based on Donald Trump’s approval rating. Like, that is the mood music that will allow us to fundraise, to recruit great candidates, and to put together a message to counter Trump and tie all these other Republicans to it. So, it’s a piece of a puzzle. I feel pretty good about Donald Trump being at like, 38, 40%. Like, that’s not good. And he has not done anything to get him out of this hole, including with this short-term debt ceiling debate. But it is a reminder that politics are- it’s all about choices and we need to put forward an alternative to Donald Trump that people like more than him, or like more than the Republican that’s running on his party. So, we have a lot of work to do.

JF: Yeah, I do think that we have to also decide, what is the message that we go out with? Not just on our side, but what we wanna say about Donald Trump. And, we always say this here, but there’s like- he gives us 50 targets a day and you call him a liar, you call him this. So, some of the good news was, the voters did seem exhausted about the chaos surrounding Trump and there was a lot of interest in electing a Congress that can act as a check on him. And then the other message that seemed to really work with a lot of these people in the focus groups and polls were, Trump is out to make his rich friends richer at your expense. This is about stripping regulations, corporate tax breaks, the healthcare- like him trying to repeal Obamacare was effective too. And on ‘fights for people like me,’ Democrats have now pulled ahead of Trump. They were even with him in February.

JL: By a lot, too.

JF: By a lot.

JL: Yeah, I think because Trump scrambles so many of the rules and he does give us so many different directions to go, we kind of forget some of the basics. And even though he’s gonna do so many different and disparate crazy things over the next year, we do need to start getting behind a sentence, like, I don’t know if rich friends richer- fine, whatever it is, but it’s like, you know, “Donald Trump is out for himself and making his rich friends richer. That’s why he’s trying to distract you with a golf ball hitting Hillary Clinton” or all this other stuff. Whatever it is, we need to get to some place where the first part of the sentence is the same. And that’s been really hard and that didn’t happen in 2016.

TV: Yeah, there needs to be a core criticism that is repeated every day.

JF: It’s funny I heard someone- Bernie Sanders was interviewed the other day and someone interviewed about, what do you think about Donald Trump so far and everything he’s done? And he’s like, “Not only is he someone that wants to give tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires.” Like, first thing out of his mouth. And then he went talk about Charlottesville and racism and everything else. But that’s- there is a message discipline going forward and I think this piece is good for that.

TV: Especially as the Mueller stuff continues to leak out every day.

JF: Exactly.

JL: And winning the House is gonna be really hard. Donald Trump being unique doesn’t make the race to win the House unique. It’s not- it may look like a Bush thing, you know, we may be able to pick up a bunch of seats. But it’s not gonna be easy and we’re gonna have to fight for every seat, that’s all.

JF: I wanna talk about what’s going on this week. On Tuesday Donald Trump will deliver his first speech to the annual United Nations general assembly in New York. Which brings together the leaders of the 193 members nations for a week of meetings and speeches. Major topics will be Iran, Syria, terrorism, and maybe the most pressing, North Korea. Tommy, you went to all of these when Obama was president. They’re called UNGA. It’s called UNGA for short, that’s the acronym.

TV: UNGA. UN General Assembly.

JF: Yeah, what can we expect there? What usually happens there?

TV: So- I mean it’s a place for the member nations to convene for a week. There’s a lot of speeches, there’s meeting to discuss global security challenges. The focus changes every year, but it’s been, you know, the Middle East, Syria, Iran -- like some of the hot button issues. I think the focus this year is gonna be figuring out Donald Trump. They wanna figure out what ‘America First’ really means. We’re coming off previous visits that were defined by Trump refusing to reaffirm the most important part of NATO, shoving the Prime Minister of Montenegro for no reason-

JF: I forgot about that.

JL: Leader of the free world!

TV: Driving around by himself in a golf cart while all the other leaders hang out. He’s also described the UN as quote, a club for people to get together, talk, and have a good time that’s sort of useless. So I do think, like, North Korea is gonna be front a center and trying to figure out the next steps as they continue to flaunt [I think he means ‘flout?’] the international community. This’ll be made harder by the fact that Chinese leader Xi Jinping won’t be there, so there’s- it’s hard to see where real progress will come from. Trump has been making a lot of noise about pulling out of the Iran deal. A whole bunch of people are gonna lobby him not to do that, including François Hollande, leader of France. They also are really gonna be focused on Venezuela, Myanmar, like why did you pull out of the Paris climate accords. I think U.S. journalists are also gonna be really focused on Rex Tillerson, because he has been about as irrelevant a Secretary of State as we’ve ever had. And people are also gonna focus on Nikki Haley because she’s sort of stepped into the breach and some of the leadership void that he’s created. So, you know, we’ll see what happens. You know, Trump’s there for like three or four days. It is like the worst kind of diplomatic speed dating you could ever imagine. You have major speeches, you have to like, know what say in the bi-lat with Qatar and the lunch with the Japanese PM and the South Korean PM about North Korea’s nuclear program. So-

JL: Okay, quick question.

TV: Not up for it.

JL: Yeah, he’s not gonna do that. So, then what happens?

TV: I mean I don’t know that there’s like- the expectations game has gotten run down so low. But I do think-

JF: I’ve noticed that with the- they’re like, what is he gonna get up there and scream at everyone in his speech and say that he hates the world? It’s like, no, he’s probably gonna give a normal fucking speech.

TV: Right.

JF: I mean, let’s not-

TV: I mean, it’s just hard because summits like this where all the leaders are together, usually you do a whole ton of work leading up to it to try to get to some deliverable. Some big accomplishment. Something to announce. And when you have a State Department that is essentially not staffed it’s very hard to have the team in place to do that and to, like, get to the place where we have accomplishments so we can say, “You know what? Venezuela is a disaster and we’re gonna ratchet up political pressure on them until they stop doing x, y, or z.” Or like, “There is an ethnic cleansing in Burma. We are focused on it. This is the money that’s going towards helping refugees who are fleeing to Bangladesh.” It’s just like, I have no confidence that any of that is prepped. [Phone dings]

JF: It really feels like they’re, [TV: Sorry] they’re so reactive. Like they don’t- like you never- like, what is Rex Tillerson’s agenda? Like they’ve pulled out of Paris, they’re dealing with North Korea, they’re trying to seem as though they’re competent. It seems like everything about what Nikki Haley does, what Rex Tillerson does, is about doing this first level thing of just demonstrating that we have a competent and working, functioning diplomatic effort in place. Which is the threshold entry for actually doing- doing something in those jobs.

TV: Rex Tillerson has spent nine months reviewing the staffing levels of the State Department for some reorg that he wants to put forward. Meanwhile, like he has no assistant secretaries of state. Like, there’s no management reorg where you’re gonna say, “You know what? We don’t need someone in charge of Europe [Laughter] or the Middle East.” Like there’s some things he’s done that, yeah, actually kind of make sense. Like he’s gotten rid of these special envoys that deal with challenges that kind of aren’t really a big deal anymore. So, that’s fine. The State Department could be shrunk down a bit and made more efficient. But, it’s just- I don’t think there’s a single Cabinet member that is more of a disappointment than Rex Tillerson. Like, even Rick Perry found religion and was like, “Oh god, the energy department. Like, we should have that around.”

JF: “Oh, I will take guarding our nation’s nukes seriously.”

TV: [Laughs] Yeah, right!

JL: “I’m gonna show up to work.”

JF: So, I’m a little scared about North Korea.

JL: Oh, you’re the one.

JF: I was reading Axios last night, they had some reporting on this, that the Trump administration is down to basically two paths. One, continue to put more pressure on China, economic pressure, particularly. And like, two, preparing for a preemptive ground war. I mean, what. What’s gonna happen here?

JL: Seems great.

TV: Hell if I know. I mean it does- I mean hopefully what they’re doing is posturing [JF: Okay] and trying to fix Steve Bannon coming out [JF: Yeah] and telling some progressive journalist that-

JF: We’re in checkmate.

TV: That we’re in checkmate, that we’re screwed, that there is no military solution. They want to get the Chinese to ratchet down on imports of fuel, they’re- David Sanger of the New York Times did a big piece today about there’s very specific deadly rocket fuel that China’s allowing the North Koreans to purchase that’s fueling their missile programs. So there’s all these- there’s a lot of things you can do on the pressure track in terms of sanctions, but it requires support from places like Russia and China, members of the UN Security Council. Actually- it also requires them to actually enforce things that are going on in their own country. Like, Chinese companies selling fuel.

JL: Yeah, I saw McMaster talking about this over the weekend. And it is true that as part of this negotiation, it seems like they need to convey that they have a reasonable military option. [TV: Yes] That that part of their messaging and part of what they’re doing with their press office at Axios is to try to convey that they actually believe they have a military option to give them a stronger negotiating hand. Cause McMaster was like, “There are people that are saying we don’t have a military option and that’s not true.” Maybe pushing back at Bannon kind of giving away the game in that interview he gave that we forgot about cause it’s two weeks ago.

TV: I mean it is a different situation but it is analogous to what we did to Iran, which was say, we will blow the shit out of your military facilities [JF: Yeah] and your nuclear program unless you take these steps we demanding you do, and in the interim we increased sanctions. Speaking of Iran, it is very frightening that Trump has previewed that he might pull out of the Iran deal as early as October. That has in place a diplomatic process to oversee, to monitor their nuclear program. It’s not perfect. There’s- we need access to military sites that we’re not getting, like, enforcement could be improved. But, it’s just when you look at North Korea and you see this program just spiraling out of control versus Iran where it feels managed by the international community to a great extent. I cannot fathom why they would do that.

JF: Also, this is a choice between, like you just said, enforcement could be improved or, if you pull out of the deal, no enforcement. Right?

TV: And the Europeans will just roll on without us. We’ll be more isolated.

JF: That’s so- tt’s like, if we pull out of this deal Iran’s gonna go- of course they’re gonna go pursue nuclear weapons again and they’re gonna have an easier time doing it than they right now.

TV: It’s just like, think of the things we’re not even talking about. Like, right now. The only story I read about Middle East peace, he’s gonna meet with Netanyahu.

JF: He just tweeted about it.

TV: Yeah, I mean it’s just, there’s no real process in place to push them forward. Not that there’s an easy solution on the table, or even a hard solution on the table. There’s just no work getting done there. There’s ethnic cleansing in Myanmar. There’s all these issues and areas- there’s all these global development and, like, food security goals that are really important to places where people are struggling, that don’t even seem to be on the agenda.

JF: Yeah, I mean, I was asking about North Korea because over the weekend he tweeted, he called the- Kim Jong Un “rocket man.”

JL: What was that?

JF: And then all the stories were about, “He’s got a nickname for Kim Jong Un, it’s rocket man, blah, blah, blah." And I’m just sitting there like, oh, this is a funny little topic, you know. And then last night I read the Axios report about the actual military options that they’re considering. I was like, this seems like the bigger deal right here. Not so much the rocket man nickname. It’s- this is the stuff you wanna pay attention to.

TV: Calling- why are we calling Kim Jong Un rocket man? Is that an insult, first of all? That was a fine movie from the 90 or, early 2000s. And we’re calling terrorists losers. He’s really stuck with that one. It’s just childish.

JL: He thinks that one’s good messaging point. He thinks that one’s a good messaging point. I’m not totally, totally against that one. It’s- the rocket man one is silly.

JF: He’s also, like, ruined two Elton john songs. Rocket man.

TV: That’s probably it.

JF: Tiny Dancers always at the- he plays that at his rallies.

JL: When we went to NASA at the White House and Buzz Aldrin almost punched me in the face, before that he handed me his business card and it says, “Buzz Aldrin: Rocket Hero.”

TV: That’s awesome.

JL: Which is cool.

JF: That’s great.

[Quiet laughter]

JL: But, even like just, you know, Trump tweets that he’s rocket man… what? What’s so funny?

JF: Quick story about me and Buzz Aldrin-

TV: Yeah, yeah, and then if Lovett or Leave It gets televised, you’ll probably have the same card.

JF: Very good- very good friend.

JL: Close personal friend, Buzz Aldrin, and I were at the Palm- the-

TV: And then Charlie Rose came up.

JF: Then I took a selfie with Spicer.

JL: Spicer, Buzz Aldrin, and I getting a quick lobster cob at the Ivy.

[Laughter]

JL: But no, but that- even just people reacting to it is exhausting. Like, he calls him rocket man. Like it’s not funny, it’s not appropriate, it’s strange. It’s not even worth your outrage, like, “Uh Trump thinks he’s gonna solve this with a nickname.” No- like who knows why Trump does what he does? It’s just.

JF: It’s frustrating.

TV: He’s just…it’s a very hard problem. It’s not his fault. It does seem like Tillerson, to a lesser extent H.R. McMaster, Mattis, Nikki Haley, are seized with the challenge. They get it. They’re focused on it. The rest of the world is wondering what the hell Donald Trump’s gonna do and if he’s gonna make things worse instead of better. And that’s not a great place to be.

JL: Well, look-

JF: Yeah. I always wanna check in with you from time to time on this cause I try to think to myself, is this something that’s a uniquely Trump administration strategy, or what would be- what would we be doing if it was the Obama administration right now? Knowing that it is a really hard challenge, no matter who’s president. That’s always the tough thing reading this stuff about North Korea.

TV: Yeah. We would be pushing for more sanctions, for more enforcement. We’d probably be doing a lot more to reassure the South Koreans. We’d probably be thinking long and hard about increasing our missile defense systems in the region, which I think they’re also doing.

JL: But it doesn’t look that different.

TV: It doesn’t look that different except for the fact that the North Korean strategy is to try to divide the alliance.

JL: Right.

TV: To try to divide the Japanese and the- and South Koreans from us.

JL: And Trump is into that.

TV: And he’s- he’s leaning into it without really realizing he’s doing that.

JF: He’s also trying to divide the alliance.

TV: Yeah.

JL: Finally, though, it’ll be okay because Stephen Miller is at that computer figuring out the perfect words for Donald Trump to say at UNGA.

JF: C+ Santa Monica fascist.

TV: Yeah, I mean- can you imagine?

JF: Stephen Miller.

TV: I guess the funny thing is, he does give this big speech to the UN General Assembly on Tuesday. It will be very weird and jarring, I think even now, for us to watch that and see him in that role-

JF: I won’t be watching.

TV: But he will be reading from a teleprompter. It will probably go fine. The thing that I really worry about is like, what’s he gonna say in the meeting with the King of Jordan or the PA -- Palestinian authority -- or the leaders of Egypt? Or his working lunch with the African leaders? It’s like, you know- these are- he doesn’t know-

JF: At his Bedminster hotel?

TV: A thing about what’s gonna be discussed.

JL: I would say a full 75% about what Donald Trump will know on foreign policy on Friday, he does not currently know. He will learn it in these meetings and he’s gonna be fascinated. He’s gonna say something like, “You know many people didn’t know that there were more than five countries in Africa. More and more people are finding this out.”

JF: So, this is basically an international relations course for Donald Trump.

JL: Oh, yeah, it’s-

JF: Crash course.

TV: And they’re doing a long version. I mean Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday? Like by the end of the Obama administration, we were out of there in 36 hours.

JL: The great courses: UNGA.

[Laughter]

JF: He gets to chill out in New York for a couple days, that’s what- he doesn’t want- he hates Washington. He’s doing most of it from Bedminster.

TV: I gotta say, I’m with him on that one.

JF: Oh, that’s fun. Okay, when we come back we will be talking to the editor-in-chief of HuffPo, Lydia Polgreen.

0:31:00

[MUSIC]

0:31:06

JF: Pod Save America is brought to you by Sonos.

TV and JL: Sonos.

JF: Speak freely about your love of Sonos.

JL: Okay.

TV: I went down to Orange County yesterday to visit a friend of all of ours, Nikki, who lives there. We saw her amazing puppy Stanley, who Lovett yelled at during Game of Thrones several times.

JF: Yeah, Lovett’s very anti-Stanley.

TV: And we’re getting her a house warming gift-

JL: I’m not anti-Stanley.

TV: And we’re gonna get her a Sonos.

JF: Does she know that or is this, like- did we just…?

JL: I’m not anti-Stanley.

TV: She’s learning about it right now.

JF: Oh ho!

TV: The reason we’re doing it is because it’s a great way to listen to music.

JF: You know how long it’s gonna take Nikki to set up that Sonos?

TV: 11 seconds.

JF: That’s right. I was gonna-

TV: I counted.

JF: Yeah that’s right. Exactly 11 seconds.

JL: I like it.

[Laughter]

JL: I have one set up in my dining room. We play music during game night.

TV: By the way, it’s nice down there.

JL: Sonos!

JF: Kick out some Republican representatives down there.

TV: Yeah! You’re out!

JF: Sonos! For the first time-

JL: Yeah, maybe Darrell Issa can listen to some music, beautifully crisp, on the veranda when he’s not a Congress person anymore. Or the roof.

JF: Yeah, when he’s- becomes a lobbyist. For the first time ever, Sonos is offering the listeners of Pod Save America 10% off one order of 1,000 dollars or less on any product on sonos.com. This offer is available for a limited time only and cannot be combined with other discounts or promotions. Use the promo code PSA10. That’s capital “P-S-A” one zero at sonos.com to receive this exclusive offer.

TV: Exclusive.

JL: Do you know who else might enjoy some crisp, lifelike sound on their Sonos? Ted Cruz. End of thought.

[Laughter]

JF: Like.

[Laughter]

0:32:26

JF: Pod Save America is also brought to you by Texture. We’ve been telling you about Texture for months.

TV: Months.

JF: It’s a great app giving you unlimited access to over 200 premium magazines. They have content that is fresh and new each month, unlike the same script they’ve asked us to read over and over and over again.

TV: Ohhh!

JL: Fresh content.

JF: This is meta.

JL: What?

JF: That was in the script.

TV: That was in the script?

JF: The funny script line was in the usually boring script.

JL: What’s happening?

TV: The call is coming from inside the house.

JF: Texture’s amazing.

TV: They’re listening.

JF: We love you Texture. So they took away the script and asked us to tell you about a story we read on the Texture app.

TV: Ooh.

JF: So, one of the magazines that’s on texture is the Atlantic.

TV: Yes.

JF: We haven’t talked about this on the pod yet, because hopefully we’ll talk to him about it at some point, but Ta-Nehisi Coates’ “First White President.” Incredible piece.

JL: Yeah. We talked about it on Lovett or Leave It the other day.

TV: That whole- that whole issue of that magazine is amazing.

JL: Yeah.

TV: Elliot Cohen has an entire article about Trump’s foreign policy so far and all the things he’s fallen short on. And he’s a right-wing Republican writing this, criticizing Trump.

JF: The Atlantic does great work.

TV: Yeah. And you know what-

JL: Yeah.

JF: Little highlight of the Atlantic here.

TV: I don’t know the last time I saw a hard copy of almost any magazine. That’s why you need Texture.

JF: You can access all your favorite magazines and their back issues in a single app so you can enjoy them any time, anywhere. Tommy, we’re just crushing the segues there. That was great.

TV: Crushing.

JF: Texture is normally 15 dollars a month. But our listeners can get Texture for just 6.99 a month.

JL: The Atlantic is very old.

[Laughter]

JL: It’s been around for a long time. I think that it’s been around since, like, Lincoln. Or maybe before.

JF: Listen- yeah.

TV: 6.99 a month! That’s amazing! That’s over 50% off their standard price!

JF: You also get a free-

JL: It probably used to have an old timey type.

JF: You also get a free trial so you can try Texture first. Get over 200 top magazines such as People, Vanity Fair, Time, Cosmo, and the Atlantic for just- we just did an ad for the Atlantic today.

JL: Yeah, what the hell.

JF: Jeff Goldberg, come see us.

TV: Yeah. The invoice is in the mail, Jeff.

[Laughter]

JF: Go to texture.com/crooked. That’s texture.com/crooked. Texture, a better way to read magazines. That’s-

TV: Also in the copy.

JF: That’s them, yeah, sorry.

JL: Okay, cool.

JF: You guys can have it out with each other.

0:34:16

[MUSIC]

0:34:20

JF: We’re very fortunate to have, in studio, the editor-in-chief of the Huffington Post, Lydia Polgreen.

Lydia Polgreen: We’re HuffPost now.

JF: HuffPost- I said it earlier in the program correctly.

LP: It’s okay.

[Laughter]

TV: We can do it again.

JF: Yeah, let’s do it again.

LP: No, no, no!

JL: No, I think-

LP: I want-

JL: I think it should stay in, guys.

JF: Okay.

LP: Yeah.

TV: It’s a learning- it’s a learning moment.

LP: I think so, too. I think so, too.

JF: Now we’re gonna remember.

JL: It’ll stick with people.

LP: I’m a big believer in transparency and showing your work, so, there we go.

JF: We’re- that’s perfect then.

[Laughter]

TV: Before you were the editor-in-chief of HuffPost, you were also a foreign correspondent for the New York Times focused on Africa. The UN General Assembly’s this week. How do you sense the world is viewing Donald Trump nine months into this adventure we’re all on? Have people started to figure him out? Or is he still this big question mark that is creating anxiety?

LP: Well, I think both, right? I mean, they’ve figured- they’ve started to figure him out and that is provoking even more anxiety.

JF: Okay.

TV: Great.

LP: You know, it’s been a really interesting- I mean I spent most of my career covering, you know, developing nations that…were sort of transitioning to democracy, but often in a deeply complicated way. They were not necessarily, you know, ideally representative or, you know, perfect in their expression of democracy. And, you know, when I was in places like Zimbabwe or Congo or Nigeria or India, you know, the U.S. for many democracy advocates was seen as a kind of beacon. And you know, when I talk to my friends in those places now, they- they see things very differently. I had a conversation, this is like such a Tom Friedman thing to say, but, you know, I was- we’ve been going around the country on our Listen to America Tour that HuffPost is doing, visiting 25 cities. And I was in St. Louis for the kick off and I had this conversation with a Lyft driver going back to my hotel, who’s originally from Uganda. And he’s lived in the St. Louis area for 13 years, he’s a nurse and, you know, drives Lyft on the weekends. And he said- we had a, you know, pretty in-depth conversation about the situation in Uganda. They’ve had a strong man president, you know, for the past 30 years. And he said, “You know, I used to call Uganda to check up on people there and now people are calling to check up on me.”

TV: Great.

LP: And that, to me, really encapsulates how a lot people, you know, from the- the world that I used to spend most of my time covering, feel about what’s unfolding in the United States right now. It’s a mix of horror, you know, but also, you know, it feels very familiar. You know, having a leader who’s using fear, antipathy- I mean in Uganda for example, it wasn’t Muslims, but it was actually gays who were used as a kind of- a way to whip up antipathy to the opponents of the president. So, you know, I think it’s really useful to look and see how the rest of the world is digesting and seeing you know, the Trump presidency. And you’re seeing, you know, don’t forget that Trump is part of a wave, you know. I covered India and, you know, Trump is of a piece with figures like Narendra Modi. So you know, I think the global lens is really important in thinking about what’s unfolding in America right now.

JF: So you were covering countries transitioning into democracy and now you’re covering one transitioning out.

[Laughter]

JF: So, you- you became editor-in-chief of one of the largest left-leaning media organizations right as Trump was elected president. We’re now eight months in. What’s been the biggest challenge of journalism in the Trump era? What’s surprised you?

LP: Yeah, I mean, it’s really interesting. I mean, I think, you know, HuffPost has traditionally been described as a left-leaning news organization and I suppose there are some ways in which it’s true. I’d like to think of us as progressive. But I think, like, this is a moment where the traditional poles of left and right feel so scrambled. And, you know, you’ve got these two giant forces, you know, globalization on the one hand and technological on the other, converging to really, to really re-architect how power works in the world. And so, I think of us- the best way to describe our identity is, you know, we’re for people who earn a paycheck and live on that paycheck. And that’s actually not an ideological point of view.

JF: What does that mean in practice?

LP: Well it means that, you know, we’re pretty critical of everyone. You know, who’s powerful.

JF: Would you say it’s more populism than ideology now?

LP: Yeah, and I think populism has become a dirty word in our, in our current political climate because it’s been used in so many negative ways. And the history of populism in the United States is not a happy one. But it’s hard to ignore the fact that there, you know, huge parts of the country, and frankly the world, that feel alienated from the most powerful institutions that govern our lives. Whether it’s, you know, politics, whether it’s media, you know, technology. There’re just so many things that fell, I think, fundamentally alien. And I think you know, one of the things we’re trying to accomplish with this listening tour is sort of get beyond the divisive tactics that have divided people, and help people, particularly working people, see the things that they share and that they have in common. And, you know, once you get past, you know, the kind of Fox News framing around political correctness and, you know, transgender bathrooms and things like that, and get people having a real conversation, I think they often find that- that they share much more than divides them.

JL: I just wanna follow up. You say- so taking on both sides, right? Or sort of viewing- not being easy on the liberal side, right, and that would be a difference than what, say a more liberal publication would do. Where do you think more liberal leaning places are falling down on the job in holding Democrats and progressives accountable?

LP: It’s a great question. I mean, I think, you know, we’re- you know, Democrats love nothing more than a circular firing squad. So, you know, there’s- there’s a lot of kind of interlacing battles going on right now. It feels like we’re gonna replay the 2016 primary, you know, probably well into our grandchildren’s, you know, lives. But you know I think that, you know, the relationship of the Democratic party in particular to big institutions, financial institutions, to the technology industry, I actually think that, you know, you’re seeing an emerging set of voices that are asking really, really hard questions around these issues. So we’re definitely not alone in that. You know, I’ve been super encouraged to see a huge emphasis on the questions around technological monopolies. I think that, you know, the battle over identity politics is pretty uninteresting to me. But, it’s good that it’s a conversation that we’re having. So, I’m not gonna criticize any sort of left leaning publication for doing this or not doing that, but I do think that anybody who cares about these issues needs to be putting real pressure on the political leadership. And also the sort of big institutions like unions, you know, as much as they remain a force, to really be kind of like foot soldiers in this battle. And putting that pressure on and continuing to advocate for these issues is extremely important.

JL: I guess, yeah, I just- it seems like, to me, that those are critiques and access points from the left as well, right?

LP: Sure.

JL: That like, a desire for a stronger, you know, union force, a desire to take on big technology companies that are monopolistic. I guess I just- to me I ,like, see MSNBC at a moment where there’s incredible liberal activism, kind of going out and trying to find conservatives to kind of level the playing field and I- I guess I wonder why this would be a moment to come at these issues.

LP: Oh, I totally agree and I think like, you know, to me the thing that’s dismaying is that the conservatives that you see, you know, rising up in places like MSNBC and, like the, you know, opinion pages of the New York Times, actually represent, like, exactly the same world view as the liberals. You know, they may have differences on policy issues and things like that, but they represent, you know, upper middle class elites consensus-

JF: Establishment.

LP: Establishment, you know. I mean, you know, Brett Stevens is an incredibly stylish writer and I think, you know, an interesting thinker. But, you know, there’s not that much difference in terms of the broader, kind of, poles that we’re seeing in our world right now, between him and Tom Friedman. Or him and Nick Kristof, you know. They essentially come out of the same milieu and they go to the same cocktail parties. They have had the same lived experience and, so to me it’s less of a critique about ideology and to me it feels like, weirdly more like a sorta cover your ass than a genuine attempt to grapple with ideological diversity.

TV: Yeah, I mean, and Hugh Hewitt is an intellectually dishonest individual who came to support Trump when it became economically and socially acceptable, or viable for him to do so. And low and behold, he’s rewarded with a show on MSNBC.

LP: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s right. I think we’re seeing people- it’s very comfortable for establishment institutions to embrace never-Trump conservatives. It’s- that’s like a gimme. It’s so easy.

TV: Shout out to Miller.

[Laughter]

LP: On, I mean, exactly. It’s like, it’s, you know, so nobody gets any points for ideological diversity from my- in my book from embracing a GOP never-Trumper. It’s like, yawn.

JF: I was thinking about this last night and you were tweeting about it as well, with Spicer on the Emmys. Which is, like, so supposedly liberal Hollywood, Harvard now, is like embracing these former Trump figures like Spicer and Corey Lewandowski, you know my mind-

LP: But not Chelsea Manning, God forbid.

JF: Well it’s like, in my mind I’m like, this is ironically one of the points that Trump’s campaign was making, which is there’s this clubby elitism and it really doesn’t matter which, whether you’re a Democrat or Republican, because all these people end up together.

LP: No, of course-

JF: Cause it’s the money and fame that sort of drives it.

LP: No, that’s exactly right. And I think like, you know, it’s been kind of a rough time for Harvard. I didn’t go to Harvard, I don’t know if any of you guys did.

JF: No.

JL: Boo hoo.

[Laughter]

JL: When’s the vigil.

[Laughter]

LP: I mean, I’ll- look it’s not like I went to a state school. I actually went to a small liberal arts college in Maryland that had a lot of conservatives at it. You know, I think that this ability of establishment institutions to re-assimilate noxious figures is a very old story, you know? I mean,

JF: You pointed out Kissinger last night.

LP: Exactly. I mean Henry Kissinger, you know, is- remains hailed by statesmen. Including like, people like Hillary Clinton. So, you know. I think this has been a factor in our public life and really says something, like, deeply troubling about Washington. That there’s essentially nothing-

JF: Absolutely.

LP: There’s nothing you can do that makes you a persona non-grata.

JL: Yeah, well I found myself thinking of it. That it’s even worse. Which is, it’s about the enemies you’re allowed to have. You know, because had Sean Spicer stood up there and defended things like a Muslim ban, but had Trump done something anti-gay in a way that led Spicer to forgive it at the podium, he’d be much less forgiven by people at the Emmys.

LP: I think that’s absolutely right. I mean, and that goes to, like, the kinda hierarchy of otherness, you know. And, look, you know, you look at things like the transgender ban -- and look I don’t remember if Sean Spicer specifically stood up and defended the transgender ban -- but like, you know we’ve seen this, like, change sweeping through Hollywood but it remains somewhat on the fringe. And you know, I think that the question of, like, who it’s okay to bash and who it’s not remains like a really important one.

TV: Yeah. So you’re leading a media company at a time of massive change in media.

JL: We are, too.

TV: We are, as well. So I was actually just gonna get some advice.

[Laughter]

LP: Oh, wait. I’m here to ask the questions.

TV: So, Ben Smith- Advice -- put your office in a soundproof studio on La Cienaga. You’ll never hear a motorcycle go by. Ben Smith at Buzzfeed wrote a piece about Facebook and how it’s time for big technology companies to sort of have their time in the barrel. And they’re starting to get attacked. You’re hearing about anti-trust. Media companies have long viewed Facebook as a frenemy. They give you extraordinary reach, but they cut into revenues. Like, what do you think the future is for these massive technology companies, like Facebook, like Twitter, that are so important to the way the news is disseminated and consumed now.

LP: I think they’re in trouble. I mean, I think that you’re seeing on the left and in certain parts of the right, a consensus around the overwhelming power that these platforms have. You know, the New York Times story about what happened at their New America foundation with the Open Markets Institute I think was a real wake up call. And you know it remains unclear if that’s actually what Google wanted or if it was, you know, the overzealous reaction of the people that run New America. But, you know, it’s clear to me that news organizations, you know, really let themselves be dealt a bad hand. And I think about the way in which you know, for example, Taylor Swift has neg- managed her relationship with Spotify, you know. I take it away, I give it back and, you know. I remember right before her- right before her album came out, there was a massive advertisement that Spotify paid for as kind of a takeover on the New York Times home page and it was clear that she had extracted, like, extraordinary concessions from Spotify and said, you as a platform, you need to have this album. Now, can news do that, I think is a really interesting question. And the fact is, like, we trained our readers to expect our content to be free and- but that, in a way, is like not nearly as bad as the second sin, which was training platforms to expect that we would just give them our content and let them build their businesses on the back of it. I mean this is particularly poignant for HuffPost, right. Because, you know, one of the most powerful critiques of HuffPost was that we destroyed the journalism industry by having unpaid bloggers and by aggregating people’s stories and things like that. I mean, we are all unpaid workers, you know, toiling in the mines of the- in the data mines of Facebook, right?

TV: Yeah.

LP: We really are!

JF: Yeah.

TV: Yeah.

JL: We’re all Twitter interns.

TV: A lot of nice houses in San Francisco have been built on the- on your labor.

LP: Yeah, exactly. And so I think like, you know, now running, like, a small scrappy, I mean, not that small but, you know, scrappy newsroom that’s really devoted to creating- it’s sort of ironic that, you know, there was a time when people to us and thought of us as, you know, the enemy of journalism. I mean, my God.

JF: Yeah. I mean it seems like the other thing that Facebook touches on is this dissemination of propaganda during the 2016 race, which I don’t- I don’t think we’ve had a good enough or serious enough discussion in this country about how to counter propaganda.

TV: Yeah, or even a full accounting of what happened.

JF: Or a full accounting of what happened. But I was- I kept looking at this- these studies after the 2016 election that shows the media coverage, you know, mainstream media was overwhelmingly negative on- for both candidates.

LP: Yep.

JF: And there was remarkably little about policy for both candidates among the mainstream media coverage. But Trump benefits from these right-wing media outlets – Breitbart, Fox, everything – that were actually talking a lot about his policy positions-

LP: Yep.

JF: And so his policy broke through in a favorable way on the right. Hillary never had anything like that on the left.

LP: And not just broke through in a favorable way on the right, but they- they broke through without any interference, right?

JF: Right. No filters.

LP: I mean without any scrutiny. And so I think, like, you know, I think that a lot of the anger that you’re seeing from President Clinton, from Hillary Clinton on the- against the media is really kind of like, speaking to this in that, you know, you had these big institutions that saw it as their job to do their job as they’ve always done their job. And meanwhile, kind of off to the side, there was this other media that was much more savvy and plugged in to how people are actually getting information, that was telling a really different story. And, look, you know, I mean, one of the basic things- I mean, there’s absolutely like, you know, progressive, you know, I wouldn’t quite call it fake news, but there’s progressive, you know, kind of manipulative media. I know because my mother bombards me with it every single day on Facebook. But, you know, there also doesn’t seem to be the receptiveness to that-

JF: Right.

LP: Among- you know, on the left. I think that there is a more questioning, less likely to sort of accept this kind of simplistic framing that we were seeing on the right. And so, you know, so I think that you’re seeing efforts on the left to try and replicate the Breitbarts and others. I don’t think they’ll succeed.

TV: No,

JF: I don’t think we want to.

LP: No!

JF: I mean, it’s always bothered me because people- when people bring up fox and breitbart, they’ll say, oh and then on the left you have MSNBC and HuffPost.

LP: There’s just- no.

TV: Not equivalent.

JF: It’s not like that, there’s no comparison.

JL: We would be- we would be in much better shape if there was a Rachel Maddow of the right. If that’s who people were tuning into on Fox News it’d be like, you know, it’d be great.

LP: Yeah.

JF: My question- I don’t think we want to replicate that. But so what do we do on the left? I mean, like, you know, you guys must struggle with that, right?

LP: We do all the time. And I think like, you know, I mean it’s not to say that, I mean if you read Breitbart on any given day, which I do read every single day. They are absolutely writing about divisions within the right, you know, so it’s not like a, you know, a kind of aim and corner for the GOP. And so I think, like, our kind of fratricidal coverage of the left is- is not dissimilar from what you see.

TV: Yes, certainly now with Bannon back.

LP: Certainly now with Bannon back, you’re seeing that. But I think that there has been this like really skillful kind of transmission of memes on the right, that just would never work on the left.

TV: I agree. And you know I’ve been thinking about this a lot as we learn more and more about Russian propaganda at first because, it’s not like they were more technologically effective, or better funded than say Hillary Clinton’s team or the DNC’s team. There had to have been something about the content that people were more willing to believe. And I think it’s because they’re willing to lie. They’re willing to say, “Hillary Clinton murdered people and here’s the list.” And like when that shit gets in your head, it’s hard to get it out. And I don’t think that’s something we ever wanna replicate on the left. At least I hope not. But on the right, it’s like, we saw this about Obama from day one. The birther garbage was exactly that.

LP: Right. I mean I think it really has to do with, like, your relationship to truth and fact, right? I mean if you have any sense of decency and care about, you know, the actual world in which we live. I mean, that’s why I think, you know, people who are shocked that, you know, Trump and Schumer- that you know, Chuck and Nancy and Donald Trump are, you know, making deals. I mean, you know, at the end of the day I think that for the Democrats, saving DACA is like, not a joke, you know. They’re not gonna sell out, you know, 800 thousand people who came to America as children for the sake of not giving Donald Trump a win. I mean agree or disagree with the Democrats, like, you know, that was not the case with the Republicans under Obama, right. I mean they were- they were willing to do almost anything to prevent him from getting almost anything and- and what we’re seeing right now is the Democratic party that’s, you know, behaving like adults. And I think that’s…that’s just the reality that we need to live with. That at the end of the day, people like Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are- are gonna make deals with Trump because, you know, it’s just too important.

JF: Yeah. So, last question and then we’ll let you go. Because you’ve covered so many countries transitioning into democracy, how do you think that our institutions are holding up so far under the Trump presidency? Or how concerned are you that he’s doing lasting damage?

LP: I mean, I think that our institutions are holding up, actually, pretty well. I think, you know, for all the criticism of the media, like, you know, there’s so much great journalism out there right now and you know, people are not intimidated. And I think that that’s really powerful. I worry a lot about the courts. I think that, you know, something that people are probably not paying enough attention to is just how much power the President has to shape the courts and given ort current you know, our current set up in the Senate, this is gonna have profound and lasting impact. If the Republicans achieved only one thing, denying a Supreme Court justice to President Obama and handing a seat to Neil Gorsuch-

TV: Yeah.

LP: Is a generational win that will not soon be undone. You know, and so- so you know, I think that’s one area where we have to be like, really, really be watching closely. You know, I’m an optimist by nature and I think that, you know, particularly traveling around the country on tis bus tour, I’m going to Birmingham from here. You know, I just have to believe that you know, the sort of the real stuff of the country, which is people in their communities, like making changes in their lives and in their political institutions and their civic institutions. That that’s the thing that’s going to keep us from going off the rails.

TV: Yeah.

LP: I mean, look, there are countries that have perfect elections under the, the auspices of the United Nations like, for example I covered one of the first elections in Congo after the civil war. And that was a beautiful election. Everyone, you know, cast their ballots peacefully, the ballots were counted correctly. That country has no institutions, you know, and so it’s just been a mess ever since. In Nigeria, they can’t hold an election to save their lives. You know, there’s like open ballot stuffing, you know, all kinds of shenanigans that go on, but it’s judiciary almost always gets it right. And it’s institutions, you know, sort of hold the country in place and that’s why, despite everyone thinking Nigeria’s a mess, it’s actually held together all these years. And so when I think about the United States I think about us as being, you know, there are parts of our- of the mechanics and the furniture of our democracy that are vulnerable. But they’re are sort of deep, institutional reasons why I think we have reasons to be optimistic.

TV: We also need Trump’s lawyer to keep going to steak lunches and just talking loudly about their strategies.

[Laughter]

JF: Next to Ken Vogel.

JL: Getting a pop over and talking about a safe with secret documents. Keep it up, Matt.

[Laughter]

LP: Read about it in the New York Times.

JF: Yeah. Lydia Polgreen, thank you so much for joining us. And please come back again soon.

TV: Yeah.

LP: It’s a pleasure. Thanks, guys.

TV: Good luck on the bus tour.

JF: Yeah.

LP: Thank you.

JF: It’ll be fun.

0:57:06

[MUSIC]

0:57:11

JF: Pod Save America is brought to you by Movement.

TV: Movement.

JL: Guys, I want to put some content in the ad. This comes from the Emmys, about Sean Spicer. Friend of mine says, “The reaction in our section was very negative, people all around us were angry he was there and afterwards when we were leaving, he was up ahead of us so my husband went up and shook his hand and told him to go fuck himself.”

[Laughter]

TV: Where’s that- which ad is that going in?

JL: This is going in Movement!

TV: Okay!

[Laughter]

JL: Join the movement! Tell Sean Spicer to go fuck himself with a lovely watch on your wrist.

[Laughter]

JF: If you don’t want to see who you are, you can wear sunglasses!

TV: If Sean asks you what time it is, say it’s time to go-

TV and JL: fuck yourself!

TV: Then look at your Movement watch.

JF: Put on your movement shades and walk right away.

JL: I may be too- you think I’m too stylish to say this to you at the Emmys? Incorrect.

JF: Do you guys know how Movement was started?

JL: I do, Jon.

JF: The company was started by two broke college kids who wanted to wear stylish watches, but couldn’t afford them. So they started their own watch company.

TV: Cool.

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JL: Just like we started.

[Laughter]

JF: That’s what it says in the copy.

JL: Just like we started!

JF: Says, “Talk about how it’s just like you started.”

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JF: So Movement watches start at just 95 dollars, at a department store you’re looking at 4 to 500 bucks. Movement found that by selling online, they were able to cut out the middleman and retail markup, providing the best possible price. Get 15% off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt.com/crooked. This watch has a really clean design. Now’s the time to step up your watch game. Go to mvmt.com/crooked and join the movement.

0:58:41

JF: Pod Save America is also brought to you by the Cash app.

TV and JL: The Cash app!

JF: Anyone have anything interesting to say about the Cash app.

JL: You know, I did.

[Laughter]

JF: I paid someone just this weekend with the Cash app.

JL: Oh! I was just thinking that, I can’t remember what it was about, but it had to do with an escape room and paying Spencer for something. And I was thinking, I’m gonna do this with the Cash app. Oh! You know what it was, I went to see It last night and-

TV: Oh, too scary.

JL: No, it was great. But, like, we bought movie tickets, then we went for conveyor belt sushi, then we saw the movie, we got candy, then we got a pizza after. It was a great night.

JF: Oh, I know, I-

JL: It was a great night, but it was hard to settle up!

JF: Saturday morning, Tommy and Emily and Hannah and I all went to Cantor’s Deli and-

TV: Oh, yeah.

JF: And Tommy- instead of splitting the check, Tommy paid for it and I paid him with the Cash app and then I said, this is so that we have content for the ad on Monday. And here’s the content.

TV: I was full until the next day cause Cantor’s is delicious.

JF: Cantor’s deli.

JL: I ate alone.

[Laughter]

TV: Any details about the Cash app that we should share?

JL: So, now uh…

JF: Yeah, if you download it and you put in the code PODSAVE-

JL: Now I’m mad about something new.

[Laughter]

JF: That’s five dollars for you. That’s five dollars for hurricane relief efforts. And it’s the fastest way to send and receive money.

JL: Guess you guys are cool with going back to Cantor’s even though they had like a D on the health inspection like half an hour ago.

TV: I was- I was hanging out with a new friend on Saturday who is also a friend of the pod and she said, “Was Lovett really mad about that bottle of wine?” And I said, “Yes, he’s a fucking lunatic. He was very, very angry.”

JL That’s what we’re saying now? You wanna bring that back up? You wanna say that I’m crazy?

TV: Total lunatic.

JL: You know what I really like? When-

JF: The grievances are back on the Cash app ad! More grievances!

JL: Everyone likes when the straight white guy tells them that they’re crazy.

TV: Calm down!

JL: You’re so crazy!

TV: Calm down.

JF: Oh, okay, yeah. Feminist over here. Feminist Jon Lovett.

TV: [Laughing] Yeah.

JF: Come at me with that.

TV: Why don’t you read me another anecdote from your friend at the Emmys, you fucking populist hero!

JF: [Laughing]

JL: I’m not gonna be talked to in this way. It’s my show!

[Laughter]

TV: Revealing.

JF: Revealing!

[Laughter]

JL: Cash app! It’s the simplest and easy way to pay people back who you thought were your friends.

[Laughter]

JF: The Cash app.

1:00:34

JF: Pod Save America is also brought to you by Postmates.

JL: Postmates.

JF: Postmates is a way to get food delivered to your house.

JL: Things to your house.

TV: Yeah, look, if your friends went out to breakfast without you and you’re by yourself and looking for something to eat-

JL: Is it that hard to fucking text me?

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JL: I did something on Saturday. I was social.

JF: Hundred-dollar free delivery credit if you download Postmates.

JL: A barbeque.

JF: You download it, that’s a hundred dollars in free delivery credit you use that-

JL: I went to a barbeque.

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JL: You weren’t there.

TV: Code CROOKED.

JF: You get all kinds of food delivered.

TV: Postmates is basically the only way we can eat here at Crooked Media, cause they closed down everything.

JF: Yeah.

JL: You guys wanna hear what my most recent Postmates orders were? I will read them without exception.

JF: [Laughs] Yes.

TV: Yes.

JL: It’s pretty healthy. I got a cob salad, before that I got a poke bowl-

JF: Cool.

JL: On kelp noodles, which I’ve become an evangelist for.

TV: Not a fan.

JL: You didn’t like them?

TV: Gross.

JL: Oh! And then you find I got buffalo wings and a cheeseburger and fries.

TV: What day was that?

JL: That was in August because it was before I started my new contest with Spencer.

TV: Are you winning?

JL: It’s not winning. It’s like the Pairs climate accords. You can’t really lose, it’s not really binding, it’s just about transparency

TV: Got it.

JF: Postmates!

1:01:35

[MUSIC]

1:01:39

JF: On the pod today, we have the host of Pod Save the People, DeRay McKesson. DeRay, how are you?

DeRay McKesson: I’m good, I’m good. How are you guys doing?

JF: Pretty good.

JL: Great!

JF: Who’s on the show this week?

DM: We have Tennessee state legislator Lee Harris talking about drug free school zones. There’s so much you don’t know that I didn’t know about drug free school zones. And then we have Tom Dart, the sheriff of the Cook County jail, the largest jail in America.

JF: What did you talk to him about?

DM: You know, actually- ye- you know today? On Monday, Monday of this week, which is, today.

[Laughter]

DM: Today is Monday?

JF: I know, man, it’s hard.

TV: I know the feeling.

DM: Today is Monday, right? Yeah. My podcast’s on Tuesday. Ah, today! Today there is an order that goes into effect by the chief judge in Chicago that should fundamentally change money bail there. So we talk about that and we talk about, like what does it look- what does it mean to lead a jail, the biggest jail in this country. You know, people don’t realize that the three largest mental health facilities in America are jails. So we talk about that and what is wrong with it and what’s on the horizon. So, that was interesting. And then the conversation about what’s happening in Tennessee to the drug-free school zones are something that, like, I thought was sort of an issue until we talked and I, like, understood it so much better afterwards.

TV: DeRay, in the course of your activism, I think you’ve probably become, unfortunately, you know, an expert on the St. Louis police force and all its…challenges. What did you think about the verdict that came down recently and the protests that have reemerged over the last several days.

DM: You know, we talk about this a little bit on Pod Save the People. But you know, he- the officer, Jason Stockley yelled “I’m gonna kill this mother-f***er” and shot Anthony Lamar Smith five times. And his lawyer dismissed his statement as sort of like a small matter. And you see that he got acquitted and people in the street. And, you know, it’s a reminder that like we have no seen justice in so many places in this country, definitely not in St. Louis where the police kill citizens at a rate unlike any other place in America. People are still in the streets and they should be in the streets. What is sort of wild is last night, the police chanted “Who’s streets? Our streets” as they arrested like 80 people. And it’s that sort of like, gang mentality from the police that leads people to protest. Like, when have you seen the police yell “Whose streets? Our streets.” They don’t own the streets. They’re supposed to be public servants. But we’ve seen that not be true time and time again.

TV: Literally taunting activists from Black Lives Matter, right? Who would- they’re reprising a chant that they had heard previously.

DM: Yeah, a chant that we made popular- all of us made popular in the street in Ferguson in 2014. And there’s a movie that just came out about the protests in Ferguson. So I’m sure they have seen that, or heard of it, and they definitely know the chant and they were trying to use it to show that they own the streets. That its’s theirs. And it’s like, that’s not what democracy is, that’s not what is should be.

TV: No, it’s not.

JF: DeRay, as an organizer, how do you shape the way these protests are covered? So, it’s- it seems like it’s a constant struggle between getting out information like what we were just talking about when you were saying, you know, the police chanting that and the police antagonizing protestors, and people who’ll cover, you know, a couple protestors, you know, throwing something at a house or something. So, like, how do you- is that something that’s on your mind when you’re organizing these protests? Is it just, you know- it’s beyond your control, so what are you gonna do? Or, what are your thoughts on that?

DM: Yeah, so, that’s also what’s interesting about what’s happening in St. Louis is that they’re using social media as a way to sort of put out propaganda in a way that we’ve not seen and that the city did- and then those police officers definitely didn’t do that three years ago.

JF: Yeah.

DM: And as an organizer, you know I had 800 followers in 2014, I have 900 thousand now. And try to be really thoughtful by using the platform to help people like, feel and see and smell what was happening. And you know, in the digital space that’s really important because most of the people that care are not physically with you so the more that you can help people like understand how many people, what’s the mood like, what does it feel like, in a consistent way, that goes a long way.

JF: What else do you think has changed with regards to police violence and resulting protests since, you know, you first went to Ferguson three years ago?

DM: Yeah, you know, people thought there was a crisis in Ferguson, they didn’t think there was a crisis in America in 2014. And now that has completely changed. Like people understand that there’s a crisis all across the country. I think now, like with most issues, people are like what can we do, right? They’re looking for what the solutions are. And there’s some places that have been more resistant than others. I think where we’ve not seen change is the FOP. That the police unions, have almost wholly been against any change at the national level, for sure. And with this administration we don’t see the DOJ any longer pushing for reform or any substantive change in the system.

TV: DeRay one of the most outspoken protests against police violence and the treatment of African Americans in the country was Colin Kaepernick and his refusal to stand during the national anthem. It has been interesting to me to watch the way his leadership has been covered over the course of the last several years and I think anyone who read Rembert Browne’s piece in Bleacher Report recently, you know, have seen the way he’s brought people along with him. I’m wondering what- what you think about Kaepernick’s stand against police violence and where- where that effort is.

DM: Yeah, I just- I was just with Colin the other day. We were together for a couple hours and, and then Jack joined, Jack here at Twitter who’s great and a friend. And then they were together for the rest of the morning. You know, Colin is very kind. He’s kinder than I think people sort of get the impression of on, with, you know when they see him on TV. He’s really dedicated to these issues both here and globally. And the reality is that nothing that Colin is saying about race and justice is controversial, right? He’s saying the police shouldn’t be killing people. And like that is true.

TV: Yes.

DM: And he’s saying that this country was founded on racism. That is true. Like, these aren’t controversial things. You know, he still trains five days a week. He’s ready at any moment if he gets signed by a team. It’s also wild to see the owners almost seemingly joined together to block him. And that, you know, isn’t fair, isn’t right. So hopefully we’ll see an owner step up and not bow down to the peer pressure of the rest of the owners and do what’s right.

TV: 32 owners who are old, wealthy, white men, I believe.

JL: Many Trump donors.

TV: Yeah, many Trump donors.

JF: Yeah.

DM: Yeah, do you guys have any idea of who is a strong owner who won’t- isn’t susceptible to peer pressure?

TV: Lovett? Lovett?

JL: Yeah, you know DeRay, as you know I sort of- I’m a encyclopedia of knowledge around- about the National Football League.

[Laughter]

JL: I have no idea.

TV: Yeah, to be honest I don’t either but he’s obviously good enough to play on a lot of teams. It- I mean the question early on was, whether he was holding out for a starting job and didn’t wanna be a backup. Well clearly that was not the case and that it was other issues that kept teams from picking him up, so hopefully a team will show some courage and bring on a very good player.

JF: DeRay, thanks for joining us. I know you gotta run. But everyone, download Pod Save the People. It’ll be out tomorrow. And, thanks for calling in.

DM: Awesome. Talk to you guys later.

JF: Alright, man. Take care.

TV: Bye, DeRay.

JL: Bye.

DM: Okay, goodbye.

1:09:00

[MUSIC]

JF: Okay, that’s all the time we have for today. Thanks to Lydia Polgreen and DeRay for stopping by. I think we’ve hit- we’ve hit it all.

JL: We’ve talked about Spicer, healthcare, UNGA…

JF: A little index

TV: I would like to come back at some time to the fact that the entire Trump legal defense team despises one another and are openly fighting-

JL: We didn’t talk about that at all!

TV: And screaming in public places.

JF: Ty Cobb…

TV: [Laughing] Ty Cobb

JF: Versus Donn McGahn.

TV: Absurd.

JF: Over-

JL: Well, Don McGahn wasn’t at the BLT lunch.

JF: No, you’re right, right, right.

TV: Right.

JL: He just heard about it later. He just got a call about it.

JF: He wasn’t able to enjoy their delicious popover.

JL: If- I just would love to have had a camera on McGahn, the White House counsel, when he gets a call from the New York Times that said “Hi, I just got lunch at BLT and the two other lawyers were talking about the whole strategy-”

JF: “I heard you have documents locked up in a safe.”

TV: Imagine if Kathy Ruemmler had gotten that call. She would’ve slit his throat.

[Laughter]

JF: Yes. Yes, that’s true. Okay, everyone.

TV: Great episode, bye!

JF: Great episode, see you later.

JL: End of podcast.

[MUSIC]

1:10:11

#podsa #September 2017 #podsa transcripts

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abassi-okoro · 6 years ago

Text

WHEN DID YOU FIRST REALIZE YOU WERE BLACK?

By Abassi Okoro

Strange question isn't it? Well, it's not like black babies come into the world knowing their color and ethnicity. Someone at some point has to tell them. Now if you're not black then you're probably thinking to yourself right now, "Why would you have to tell a kid that he or she is black? Isn't that obvious?" Well it might be obvious to you that you're white but being white in America isn't accompanied by a disclaimer and parental advisory. White parents never have to pull their kid to the side and say, "Jimmy, you're white!" There's no reason to allude him to that fact because society will do it for him through advantages and privileges. Black parents, we don't have the luxury of just saying to our children, "You're black" without telling them why it's important to know that, how we got here in America, why we're here in America in the first place, and the dangers of still being in America.

The revelation of you being black is usually a negative one. The revelation of you being white is usually a pleasant one. I'll give you an example; you might realize you're white when you live in a big house, your mommy drives you to school, you have no chores, everything comes easy to you, you get everything you ask for and all of your friends look like you. Even if you’re not from a wealthy white family and your mother is a single white parent or your parents are low to middle class whites, you still reap from the benefit of the doubt that you will turn out at least better than the average negro. For blacks, you might realize you're black when you're the only one who looks different in class, when you’re bused to a school way across town or when a little white ask you to dance only for it to turn out to be a group prank. Or as in my case, you're called a "Nigger" in 2nd grade. Pretty rough beginnings I admit. Being called a nigger was when I realized that I was black. I remember running home and telling my mom that a white kid called me a nigger and my mother tried her best. She said, "You ain't the nigger - HE'S the nigger." Well, that didn't make much sense either. I needed a REAL explanation - not an emotional reaction.

When you’re a young child, you don't think about yourself being anything but a child, let alone a black child. At least the white kids had that luxury of knowing they were a white child. When I was a kid, my mother would say, "Don't you go out there and embarrass me in front of all these white people." That was another realization; why was it so important to make white folks happy and comfortable? I imagine that no white parent ever carried the burden of telling their white kid to be on their best behavior in the company of minorities or immigrants. White parents were also proud of their kids no matter what but with black parents, us black kids had a hell of a time invoking unconditional pride from our parents and you can forget it ever being vocalized. It's just not in our culture to praise our children in that aspect and if you know anything about Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome, you’d understand the reason behind why black parents do not praise their children. One of the reasons is that black parents feel that somehow that praise sets us up for failure and so parents stay stern and serious while playing the role "Constant reminder" that they have to put in “work” and push twice as hard for half as much. It makes sense from a survival standpoint but positive reinforcement an unconditional love is also a survival tactic. Black kids need to hear adulation just as much, if not more than white kids. We’re the ones at a social disadvantage.

SUMMER OF 1983

It was the summer of 1983, school was out and I was boarding the school bus. A white girl in the front of the bus was eyeing me and whispering to her group of white female friends and giggling. I could hear some of the girl says, "Go up to him, go ask him." Obviously I was thinking that the girl had a crush on me and wanted to ask me to be her boyfriend. As the group of girls made their way to the back of the bus where I was sitting, one of the girls said, "She wanted to know if, there's birds living in your hair?" The three girls giggled and ran off. I had an Afro. I was embarrassed and devastated. I wanted to cut my hair that night and I was certainly black THAT day. Being black had a tendency of catching me off guard. You become baffled about why store shop owners are following you around in the store. You're confused why a bad grade in English translates as you having a, "Learning Disability" while a bad grade by a white kid translates as, "He just needs a tutor." You’re confused on why a police officer is asking an 11 year old if he has any weapons while white kids are given a ride home in the police car (front seat). You can't figure out why being involved in a fight with another black kid, you're asked if you're in a gang.

SPRING OF 1988

It was spring of 1988, my friend Travis, Christian and I were sitting in Travis’ car in a parking lot trying to figure out directions to Chantilly High School. We were going there to meet up with some other friends for a flag football tournament. Travis had just bought his first car, a royal blue 1975 Chevy Nova SS, muscle car. We were both equally confident and cocky (even though I was the passenger, I thought the car did wonders for my teenage sex appeal.) Within minutes we heard the, “Woop Woop” of a police siren. A police car had pulled up behind us with flashing lights. The officer got out of the car and walk up to my window, he leaned down and said, “What are you boys doing here sitting in the car?” Travis replied, “We’re reading a map printout.” The police said, “You know this looks suspicious.” Travis and I looked at one another and he replied, “Sitting in my own car looks suspicious?” The officer asked for ID and registration which was provided for him but he also made Travis take the keys out of the ignition and give them to him. The officer walked back to his car with Travis’ keys as we sat there for over 20 minutes.

The officer returned and immediately said, “Everyone step out of the vehicle.” So obviously at this point, we’re expecting the worse. We all got out of the car and sat on the ground. Within minutes, police back up arrived. There were now two police officers and Travis looks at me and whispers, “Now they’re going to fuck with us.” The first officer says, “You guys are sitting in a parked car in front of a bank.” We hadn’t realized that a First Union Bank was 20 feet away and we were not sitting “in front” of it. The officer says, “How do we know you’re not casing the joint and you’re planning to rob it?” Travis fires back with attitude, “Yeah, we’re going to rob a closed bank with no tools, no weapons, no masks and in broad daylight with a supped-up blue muscle car.” The officer then turns to our friend Christian and says, “Why are you with these two jokers?” Christian replied, “We’re friends, we’re just trying to get to Chantilly High School for a football game.” What the police officer said next was an incredible example of my blackness. The officer said to Christian, “Don’t hang with these guys, I can tell they’re trouble. If you want a future, leave these guys alone. Go ahead and get outta here. Go home now!” Christian was white! Travis and I stood for another 10 minutes as the cops tried their best to find something to pin on us. The car was searched by both officers, we were questioned if we had drugs or contraband, we were chastised, ridiculed and we were even asked if we were “gang bangers.” Eventually we were allowed to leave. The entire ordeal was an hour.

I was furious, angry, and extremely angry. I was also angry with Christian for being white and privileged. It wasn’t his fault but I was angry with him nonetheless. We never made the football tournament. Realizing you’re black is more than just looking in the mirror. It involves the realization of unfair and unequal treatment, of bigotry and pure hate. I have spoken to African immigrants who only knew that they were black in the context of skin color but didn’t know that they were BLACK in status until they arrived here in America and was treated less than human. Many of these revelations put me on the path of where I am today. I wanted to know why black folks was such a big deal in white America. Why were we so hated? My mother would often reassure me that, “One day our ship will come.” I wanted to know where that ship was coming from and where it was going but more importantly, why “One Day?” My parents indoctrinated me to believe that our time was a matter of patience, that one day we shall overcome – not that we HAVE overcome. The tide will turn, the pendulum will eventually swing to the other side, what goes around comes around, you reap what you sow and so on and so on. Cop Out! I don’t have mixed feelings about my parent’s teachings, that’s what they were taught as well. If you listen to the old Negro spirituals, all of those old songs were about “One Day” and never “Today.” That’s how blacks in America were conditioned, to WAIT for that one special day or that special savior who will come, “One day.” This type of conditioning takes away our natural desire to win. No one waits for a victory – you get out there and claim that victory. Those old Negro spirituals are a lie!

My parents didn’t explicitly teach me about my blackness or how to navigate in the anti-black racist society. Perhaps they were protecting me or perhaps they weren’t wise in their articulation of the black struggle. I had no real reason to acknowledge my race and I didn’t understand the impact that my blackness had on the society and the people around me, positive or negative. I was the first to be picked for the basketball team and the last to be chosen for the debate team. I grew up with a myriad of different friends, black, white, Asian, Arab, Hispanic. My very first best friend, Ankush - he was Indian and from New Delhi. My second best friend – Katie was a white girl from Virginia, my third best friends were two Native American twin brothers – Ricky and Nester from North Carolina and despite that diversity of friendship, my friends were more intrigued by MY blackness. When you’re young you don’t realize the significance of your skin tone. Society hits you in the face with proverbial bricks of blackness. Whiteness seems like a very subtle and smooth realization accompanied by smiles, entitlements and privileged white culture.

I grew up in a household where blackness wasn’t necessarily celebrated. We didn’t celebrate Kwanzaa, we didn’t worship a black Jesus, and we didn’t honor Black leaders, not even during Black History month. My parents kept their noses clean, heads down and they did their best not to rock the boat. Neither one of my parents were social activists or black extremists. They grew up in a Southern Baptist environment and my parents still carried some residual obedience to white folks. My mother worked for a wealthy white woman as a caregiver. I can still recall the first time I witnessed my mother address another woman her same age as “Yes maam” and “No Maam,” something I grew up believing was attributed to elders only. My father worked for a commercial insulation company for over 40 years. The company was owned by a board of racists whites who would hire blacks and Hispanics to work 60+ hours a week for pennies. With no marketable skill set, no post high school education, no real working knowledge of economics, my father’s options were limited and that put him at the mercy of being employed by whites who would otherwise work him to the bone and pay him chump change. Because of this, I was brought up to behave myself in front of white people or else I wouldn’t be given great opportunities. It took me several years to realize that my parents were still operating as free slaves. My mother always reminded me of how intelligent and talented I was but ironically she put that reminder in the context of using that intelligence and talent to assist white folks so that they can pay me well. She would often say, “Boy, that brain of yours is something else. If you can get you a job in a big company you will be rich. You are so smart!” She never said, “Boy, that brain of yours is something else. If you can start your own company and hire your own people, you will be rich.”

It’s not her fault, it’s how she was conditioned. It’s how most of us were conditioned. I think I resented the fact that I wasn’t raised like the black kids in San Francisco who had the Black Panther Party down the block or like the kids in Harlem in the 60’s who could just walk down to Mosque no. 7 and listen to Malcolm speak. I had parents who took me to church to look upward to a white God. I wanted to know why my parents weren’t angry like me. I was angry stepping out of the 75 Chevy Nova SS and my parents went to work each day serving white folks and never had a cross word for their bigot boss.

So I went through my phases (Black Militant, Ansaarullah, Moorish Science Temple of America, The Five Percent Nation, Nubian Islamic Hebrews, Nuwaupian Nation of Moors, The Universal Zulu Nation, Pan Africanist, All-African People's Revolutionary Party), I joined them all looking for my purpose. If my parents weren’t going to teach me blackness, I was going to teach myself. I’m grateful for all of this because it gave me an opportunity to define myself and not just accept prescribed definitions (African American, Christian, Non-Violent). I identified myself and I came to realize that I’m not just one thing or three things. I am black, I am African, I am Cameroonian/Congo, I am a black militant, I’m an Ansaar, I’m a Moor, a Five Percenter, I am a Nubian Islamic Hebrew, a Nuwaubian, a Zulu, a Pan-Africanist, and I am a revolutionary. More importantly, I am Black.

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foursprout-blog · 7 years ago

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A Tarot Reading Can Be the Therapy Session You Never Knew You Needed

New Post has been published on http://foursprout.com/health/a-tarot-reading-can-be-the-therapy-session-you-never-knew-you-needed/

A Tarot Reading Can Be the Therapy Session You Never Knew You Needed

When I was a girl, I learned to read cards from my Romani grandmother in her charmingly cramped trailer. A diasporic ethnic group originally from India, Roma—more commonly known by the racial slur “gypsy”—were historically limited to performance, fortune telling, or other handicraft work, due to persecution.

My grandmother taught me how to divine the traditional way, using a deck of playing cards. But over the years, I have fallen in love with tarot, which are the predecessors of today’s playing cards, first appearing in Europe in the 1500s. My grandmother wanted to teach me to read cards so I could carry on the family trade (which I have), but also because there is something intrinsically healing about gathering together to solve life’s problems.

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Reading cards, my grandmother and I learned about each other’s hopes and fears, discussed our dreams, and sat quietly together concentrating on candle flames and asking our ancestors for help. I think it’s one of the best ways to understand a loved one. Romani fortune telling, at its best, is therapeutic in nature and seeks to heal the past self and better navigate the present. By the end of a good session, you should feel like you understand yourself and your world better. Readings aren’t meant to reveal the future because the future is always being written, but a good reading should reveal the person.

Read tarot with a friend.

I’m not saying to go seek out a professional tarot reader, unless that’s an experience you would like to have (in which case, go forth and enjoy!), but it is a good idea to have someone else read for you. If you want to have a more intimate (and affordable) experience with fortune telling, you can do a free tarot reading with a trusted, open-hearted friend.

In the Romani tradition, it’s often frowned upon to read for yourself. My grandmother explained it to me this way: “Reading for yourself can never truly be accurate because your hopes and fears will cloud your vision.” It’s too easy to slip down a bad introspection spiral or to become intoxicated by fantasy. However, when you swap readings with a friend, their outside point of view can help you see yourself and your situation more objectively.

Even if you and your friend have absolutely zero tarot experience, that’s OK. They will likely see the symbols on the cards differently than you will, which can lead to fresh perspectives on even the oldest problems. Also, they likely know you pretty well already, so they have a context for the advice they give you. This is especially helpful if you’re the type of person who secretly wishes to talk about your feelings but needs a tool to help facilitate actually expressing them with another human (which, yes, can be scary).

At the very least, you will have an open discussion about what’s been on your minds, and best case scenario, the cards will turn up some synchronicity—and your friend might tell you exactly what you needed to hear.

Select the right tools.

Tarot cards offer symbols of the major and minor arcana, as well as the four suites, and the numbers that accompany each card. There’s an old belief that you shouldn’t buy your own tarot cards; they should be gifted to you. There’s an easy way around that. Just ask a friend to get you a deck (or the deck of your choosing) and then take them out to lunch or something in exchange—or you and the friend who you plan to read with could also each buy a deck and then swap.

There are so many different types of decks that it can be overwhelming to choose the ‘right’ one, so keep it simple and choose a deck that you feel drawn to—or that you just like, for whatever reason. Any deck you pick should have a guide to help you interpret the cards and learn different spreads (ways of laying out the cards and reading them), and that can be a very helpful resource.

There are also many books about tarot reading if you want to go a bit deeper. However, I’ve been reading professionally for many years now, and I find that more often than not, my clients will have their own feelings and connections to the cards, and those personal resonances are just as relevant.

Care for your tarot cards.

Make sure you treat your cards well. In the Romani tradition, always use a handkerchief or scarf to lay the cards on. They should never touch a table or any other surface without a cloth between them, because as my grandmother says, “They need to be babied. Speak to them lovingly, shuffle them gently, and apologize if you drop them.” Likewise, after you finish reading with them, you should thank them before you put them away. She also insists that they like to be kept in silk or satin bags, or wrapped in silk scarves, or another soft material. She says they prefer light, airy colors, naturally. Your cards are fancy babies.

It’s an excellent idea to also treat your body well before you read cards. Make sure you’ve eaten and are hydrated. Readings are a way to care about yourself and take interest in your well-being, and also to allow yourself access to your deepest dreams and possibilities you might not otherwise let yourself consider.

The author, Jezmina von Thiele / photo credit: Aurora Rose of Auroraandjohn.com

Open with a ritual.

Before a reading, it’s important to start with a ritual (big or small) to relax you and open yourself up to your own insight and intuition. Before we read for each other, my grandmother would always have me meditate with her first, though she wouldn’t have called it meditation.

We usually sat in front of her ancestor altar, a common fixture in Romani households, often consisting of photos of deceased family members and a single white candle, and during holidays, little offerings of food and alcohol. Here she would ask me to breathe deeply and evenly, and to empty my mind, imagining its spaciousness. We were making room for it to be filled with messages from ancestors and spirits of goodwill. Then we would ask these ancestors and spirits to help guide us in helping the client (in this case, each other) as much as possible.

Setting an intention like this, to help each other, or to see clearly and compassionately, is a great idea. It sets the tone for your work. You may also consider setting the intention to invite yourself to be open to what the cards have to say, and also hold the knowledge that what the cards may suggest isn’t set in stone—that you always have control over your choices.

The ancestor altar meditation with a candle is my grandmother’s ritual, but over time, I’ve added elements that make me feel more relaxed, open, and ready to sift through universal symbols. Before you read, you may like to take a bath with rose petals, salts, or oils; burn sage, copal, or incense; conjure a circle, witch-style; stretch; or pray. You might only set a ritual for a minute or two, or you may want to luxuriate in preparations for longer.

The possibilities are endless, and the point of it is three-fold: A ritual will signify to your brain that you are about to enter a certain mindset, one of openness and intuition. It will relax you and make it easier to read for yourself with more accuracy, or be more open to someone else’s reading. And lastly, it will show you what kinds of self-care you are craving and give you a perfect excuse to take some time for yourself and care for that mind and body of yours.

Engage in the reading.

Once you’ve set your stage with a nice scarf and a little opening ritual (whether that’s a few deep breaths with a candle or an elaborate sage-burning affair), it’s time to get down to the reading. If you are reading for your friend, ask them to shuffle the cards while thinking of their question.

Questions might include the following: “What should I be doing with my life? Is this the right partner/career/decision for me? What should I do to be happy? How can I heal? How can I find the right partner/career? Should I change my job/go freelance/start a family?”

Generally, it’s best to try to focus on one issue at a time—for instance, do one reading for career and another for love. Sometimes, though, especially in longer readings, they overlap anyway. If your friend doesn’t have a specific question, then they can ask the cards to please tell them what they need to know.

The deck you’re using may have suggested spreads (arrangements of the cards) with instructions for how to read in their prescribed style. You can use any of those if you like, though if this is your first time reading, I suggest picking the simplest version: a “three-card spread,” which is exactly what it sounds like.

Start with the three-card spread.

Once your friend is done shuffling and asking their question, ask them to pick three cards from the deck (without peeking!) and lay them on their cloth, one after the other, face-up.

Reading from left to right, the first card is the past. The second card is the present. And the third card is the possible future. A lot of how you read these depends on what the cards mean, but a good general approach is to think of the first card representing what the person has recently conquered or let go of, or what it was that got them to where they are right now. The second card almost always represents the person in the present, and/or their present situation. If it’s a love reading, it might even symbolize their love interest. And then the third card often represents what the future might look like if things continue as they are.

If it’s a negative card outcome, then the present and future cards usually have some wisdom to avoid or neutralize any negative qualities the future card has. If it’s a positive outcome, the present and future cards often have some tips to help you get to that good place.

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You might want to do a couple of three-card readings for each other on different topics; the more you practice, the easier it gets. The most important part is that you two are talking about what the cards bring up for both of you, how they relate to the question, and how you feel about it. The discussion is where the real magic is born.

Practice “first thought, best thought.”

My grandmother insists that you should always look at the cards first without looking up the meanings in the book, and draw your own conclusions. You can interpret a tarot card like any other work of art, starting with questions like, How does each card make you feel? Why? Are there symbols that stand out to you, or that feel familiar?

You can think about color use, drawing style, negative space, numbers… anything that touches you. Depending on the spread you use, whether it’s the three-card spread or one you choose from your book, the cards will represent certain things about you or your situation, and that will color your interpretation too.

You may also notice a theme, like you may have a lot of one suite: cups, coins, swords, or wands. Each suite represents an element—water, earth, air, and fire, respectively. Perhaps you might identify with the elements that appear on a basic level. The beat poet Allen Ginsberg advised, “first thought, best thought” while editing one’s own work, and the same goes for fortune telling.

Your first impressions are generally the closest to the bones of a situation, and free-association is more likely to show you exactly what is troubling you, and open up wisdom you already have but may be repressing for any number of reasons. Then you can look up the meanings in the book that comes with your tarot deck for more ideas, if you feel so inclined.

My grandmother strongly believes all fortune telling books are garbage and that intuition and interpretation are skills that can only be honed through self-discovery and/or a family tradition passed down orally. That’s the old-school approach though, so go ahead and read about it if you want to.

Come at it from the side.

My grandmother conceded that reading in a response to a specific, impersonal question like, “What do I need to know about this upcoming project at work?” is much less emotionally risky than sitting down with a deck of cards and asking, “What’s wrong with me?” and proceeding to pull card after card, obsessing over every one of your perceived card flaws, until you’ve pulled the whole deck.

If I’m feeling a little emotionally vulnerable, I steer away from more personal topics, like family and love, and do three-card-spreads for my various projects. Asking for advice for my book or an upcoming dance performance feels a lot more objective than a more personal reading, and yet, often when I ask about the work I’m doing, I get some good advice for my mental health too.

If I have writer’s block, for instance, there’s probably something lingering in my heart that I resolutely decided not to feel—for instance, to write effectively about my childhood, I actually need to feel some feelings about the hard things that happened back then. It might not hurt to work on trusting my love interest too, and letting go of those old fears born of early life trauma. Coming at a problem from the side, like “How can I focus better at work?” is likely to reveal answers that might have felt too intimidating to really see when looking at them head-on.

If this approach feels like it would suit you, then you might enjoy a book by Jessa Crispin called The Creative Tarot, which offers a number of mini-spreads with different representations for each card, depending on what you’re asking about. The book mainly deals with questions you have about creative work, although her methods could apply to other queries too.

Remember that moderation is key.

While it’s absolutely lovely to do these readings with friends whenever the mood strikes, it might also be beneficial to make these readings a ritual, like a standing coffee and tarot date. Maybe you could make time to read each other monthly or bi-weekly. You might even like to use markers, like reading at the full moon or at the turn of the seasons (solstice and equinox readings are fun).

Regularity offers structure to your self-discovery, and you’re more likely to see themes in your thoughts and behavior that you can either nourish or let go of, depending on what you need. I don’t recommend reading for each other more than once a week, though. Give yourself time to live your life without overly examining it too.

In the spirit of moderation, it’s probably best that you don’t ask the cards the same questions over and over again, because according to my grandmother, that insults them and makes them cranky, rendering them much less likely to help you out. This also keeps you focusing on moving your life forward, and while you and your friend might rehash some familiar themes, particularly as patterns in your behavior and/or the cards you deal emerge, ultimately you’ll be exploring new interests and thoughts with your friend.

Just like any conversation, you want to keep it fresh and authentic. Your mutual curiosity about each other’s lives and well-being might also spur you both to positive action, breaking unhelpful patterns, and trying new things. But if it’s been a few months since you’ve asked about something and you want to check in again, that’s fine. Or if a situation you’ve already asked about has dramatically changed—like your partner breaks up with you a week after you do a love reading—then it’s cool to check-in again.

Even on the most basic level, you are creating a good support system by nurturing this relationship with a friend in which you can thoughtfully and productively listen to each other and work through some big feelings. Any wisdom that the cards spark in you two is the cherry on top.

Opt for a one-a-day practice.

If you really want to read for yourself, here’s a little something you can do: You can practice card reading more often without fear of self-obsession or pissing off the cards if you only pull one card a day. This isn’t something my grandmother would ever do, but a lot of different fortune-telling traditions include this card-a-day practice.

It’s a daily excuse to ground yourself and meditate for a few minutes, maybe adding in any other ritual embellishments you like, before you even start. I have quite a few friends who will draw a single card without asking for anything specific and use the card as a theme for the day. Other friends ask the card to give them advice for the day ahead. You could spend a few minutes meditating on this in a quiet space, at an altar, or over your daily cup of tea or coffee. This technique, at its essence, provides a helpful moment to take a few deep breaths and set an intention for the day ahead, giving you focus, and perhaps a sense of purpose or confidence.

Practice loving detachment.

Grandma insists that to read from yourself, you must be detached from the outcome, because wishing for a certain outcome is what skews your readings and the way you see the world, yourself, and those around you. Practicing loving detachment is what Buddhists recommend we do to get through life’s trials and tribulations and maintain a relaxed and blissful composure.

This is why it’s not always a great idea to get a reading when you’re in the throes of passion or despair. If you want to read for each other, but you’re feeling like you’re falling to pieces, maybe take a walk first, talk, do some breathing exercises together or a calming activity like coloring to bring your energy down to a more neutral place. If you’re still really upset, maybe save the question about that topic for another day. It’s likely that coming at the heart of the matter from a different direction will be helpful, anyway.

Start a dream journal.

Journaling is such a helpful tool for many people, and dreams, for Roma and other cultures, are taken very seriously and are often seen as another reality or world connected to this one. Part of my training with my grandmother was dream analysis. We would often check in with each other’s dreaming and discuss what knowledge our own spirits, ancestors, and deities were trying to share with us.

You can start interpreting your dreams the same way you would the cards, by focusing on feelings, sensory stimuli, symbols, and narrative, which creates a direct line for self-analysis. Part of your well-being get-togethers might be sharing dreams with each other and discussing what they might represent and how they relate to your readings. Your friend will likely spot patterns in both if they’ve been reading you for a while already. This is a lovely way to connect your waking and dreaming worlds and share that everyday magic with someone you care about.

Prepare a closing ritual.

It’s a good idea to have a little closing ritual just to tie everything up at the end, and let your mind and body know that you’re returning to the world and leaving this heightened state of intuition and reflection. This can be simple. My grandmother and I, after thanking each other, would then thank the cards, shuffle them gently to “shake off” the reading, wrap them up in their scarves, and store them safely.

I also like smudging the room by burning some sage, palo santo, or incense. If you are burning out candles that you set with an intention, before you blow them out, you can say this incantation I learned from a Pagan coven I studied with years ago: “Though the flame goes away, the magic does stay.”

The most important thing is to begin, sustain, and close the reading with an open, honest, and compassionate heart. Dedicate yourself to creating a safe and nonjudgmental space, listening deeply to each other, following your intuition, and using the tools (the cards and guidebook) with the best intention to each other know yourselves better and pursue your own happiness. Your reading ritual can become a part of your bond and is a wonderful way to strengthen your relationship and support each other.

Resources

If you would like to learn the general meanings and history behind each card, with interpretations from a number of decks, as well as spreads and techniques, then you can try Rachel Pollack’s Tarot Wisdom: Spiritual Teachings and Deeper Meanings by Rachel Pollack.

If you love history, then you might enjoy A Wicked Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult and Tarot by Ronald Decker, Thierry Depaulis, and Michael Dummett.

If you want to learn more about dream interpretation, you can check out this keystone text, The Undiscovered Self: With Symbols and the Interpretation of Dreams by Carl Jung.

If you love learning about symbols and mythology, as well as ancient magical practices, then peruse Alchemy and Mysticism by Alexander Roob.

If you’re a creative type, or wish to be, and you want to get into journaling and other intuitive practices to support your work, then I recommend The Artist’s Way Workbook by Julia Cameron.

If you’re curious about Romani culture, then you can read We Are the Romani People by Ian Hancock.

#Health

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