#daemon's characterization

[horizon-verizon]

Now I did not watch the new S2 episode. I'm hearing abt it from people who have. And pretty much all the leaks were authentic regarding B&C.

I wrote abt the Sophie's Choice of bk!Helaena in the bk!B&C HERE, when someone asked me abt it. The other unserious things abt Blood & Cheese of HotD is that in the bk:

the psychological torture Helaena goes thru could either be Cheese trying to have fun (unlikely, they were on a "timer") OR it is Daemon reverting, perverting, etc. Rhaenyra's loss--Rhaenyra was not there to witness Lucerys or even be able to have his remains....Helaena will participate in her own son's murder, so to speak

bk!Cheese was very knowledgesble abt where to go and how, which tunnels to use...which is why he was chosen in the first place and why his "job "profession" (ratcatcher) is so important, bc these guys know where to lay traps in hidden places for rats -> to make as if Cheese is ignorant as to how to lead Blood into the castle makes as if Daemon was more incompetent and careless than either have been canonically shown to be, even when they are angry or aggrieved

also, regarding show!Helaena giving offering her necklace and very quickly pointing out which kid was a boy as if she could not wait to abandon Jaehaerys while bk!Helaena offered her very life before she was forced to choose any kid is just disrespectful not only to her intelligence but neurodivergent people. Esp since if we argue she had some sort of autism or what have you. To rely on one's neurodivergence to explain why they--compared to the book where she was more active--didn't take that action is a cop out and is almost a generalization. Please. Again, she's supposedly a dreamer and has had access to such dreams since her preteen yrs in the show, so it's likely she had known what was going to happen in this moment if she also had known abt "beast beneath the boards", "spiders (the war)", etc. No HotD didn't show us more moments exactly proving that, but since they also had her do absolutely nothing with those visions like the original Cassandra actually tried to do, no one can tell me it didn't happen. In fact, I can say it's bc she never actually does anything with her dreams (and therefore we'll never really know if she had B&C "dreams" so I can cont with this hypothetical, as its likelihood is stronger than it should have been) that I can say that even her own kids dying doesn't seem to faze her enough to make a plan of sorts to herself? Or to be able to think as she tried in the bk when they forced her to choose. Show!Helaena has "dreams" (they aren't even dragon dreams) but unlike Cassandra, she does nothing with them. Again, it very likely B&C appeared to her in her so-called "dreams", she does what she always does--nothing...but not only does she finally decide to do something, she thought a fucking necklace would help her or her kids and this is as much as we get for her in this show? We had the opp to display a fuller character apart from her emotional remove and suggestion of prophecy, and when we do, we only see her like this? They traveled all this way, risked getting caught and viciously executed, to kill ONE mutherfucking child, and these writers really thought that it was a good idea to have Helaena do this, think this would work even an iota? No, all this was such lazy, cheap writing bc the writers decided that her just having visions made up for her small character in the orig tale and that they didn't have to do else for her--they started and left her half done, it seems. Let's say the B&C dream never appeared to her; this is till the writers taking away the agency I already described above in the link---Helaena is a nothing character whose dreams still mean nothing to no one expect people who want to feel smart the way it exists in the show itself. Helaena has always been a victim, but they made her more abominably victimized...as I already said they do HERE & HERE. She's just around, waiting to be abused by the script and those around her for plot convenience's sake. There is no substance or personhood to her, she is only a purpose.

So, love that for Ryan. Seemed lukewarm.

But what did anyone expect, seeing as the same writers responsible for Aemond's "accident" (having tried for months to convince us that this was exusable even with it not being his intention to kill), for Alicent sincerely forgiving Rhaenyra after she had been on her ass and abusing her and her kids (and threatening their lives) for years and almost stabbing out Luke's eye, for Rhaenyra somehow being so affected by a stupid ass page of Nymeria (of all people!, you made Alicent pull out this page of a woman who lead armies to conquest as a consummate leader in her own right, who lead said armies to make sure her people survived, in order to dissuade Rhaenyra from fighting for what she sees as her birthright/designated seat of power and to also make sure her family/unit survives?!) to derail her from really confronting any of them in battle...🤷🏿‍♂️

[horizon-verizon]

Quote referred to:

("The Blacks and the Greens"--Fire and Blood)

Daemon: War is bad. Unlike many of the men of the realm itching for combat, I actually have been to war and I really don't feel like doing it again. I think we should do our best to end this conflict with diplomacy, and possibly a little assassination, in order to avoid a war. Especially a war pitting dragons against dragons. I've read extensive histories of the wars of Valyria and I'm saying right now, we should do our very best to avoid outright combat both on land and in the sky.

HBO: Ahh... so he's a warmonger!

[ceriseo]

i dont think otto and daemon had an actual serious relationship but i do think that as a part of daemon's pyschosexual fixation on his brother he drunkenly hit on otto and when otto reacted homophobically daemon got offended because?? wym you dont want to fuck me im literally daemon targaryen?? and otto was like. im not a filthy degenerate (same tone as 'or you, her childhood companion'). and daemon was like. clearly. whatever loser im too cool and hot for you and then went to his chambers and stared at the wall for twenty hours. the next day he met mysaria.

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

[alicentalicent]

Watching episode 1x01 of House of the Dragon is a delight because you can find a lot of foreshadowing and nods to what will happen later. This part stood out for me because while Corlys is swearing fealty to Rhaenyra as Viserys' heir, the shot cuts to Alicent in a very pointed way.

We can see her with an expression that could be read as jealousy, perhaps, or being worried about what this means to Rhaenyra (Alicent is very smart, and the precedent in this respect does NOT bode well for Rhaenyra. Though maybe she's just being anxious (as per usual) about losing her friend to duty and responsibility soon idk Emily's acting is superb and this expression can be interpreted in many ways.)

That's the surface layer of the scene, but I find it interesting that Corlys, the one swearing fealty to Rhaenyra, betrays her at the end. Whereas Alicent, the one being shown at this moment, ends up walking a very complicated path where fealty and good faith are questioned, but we know now she chooses Rhaenyra at the end. Beautiful.

Followed by a quick interlude of Rhaenyra enveloped in flames, because of course she is.

And now we have the next Lord swearing fealty, Hobert Hightower, which we know will stop supporting Rhaenyra's claim from the very moment Aegon II draws his first breath.

The scene cuts to Daemon, who is at his lowest point because Viserys chose Rhaenyra as his heir in part to spite him and as a punishment for being an absolute prick about Baelon dying.

But we know that he ends up marrying Rhaenyra and supporting her claim. However, I would argue that his arc also questions "good faith and without deceit."

And finally, the scene cuts to none other than Mysaria, who we know will play an important part in Rhaenyra's cause.

It's fun that the focus is on her while Lord Hobert is swearing by the old gods and the new, especially if we think of the role she will play in advising Rhaenyra about the dragonseeds and thus leaning into the divine aspect of being a Targaryen, closer to the gods thanks to the dragons etc etc.

Heh, that's Mysaria on the stairs. (Young Rhaenyra would be like: "may the gods bless you wtf???")

Anyways I like finding scenes that on first watch are saying something and on rewatch you can notice maybe there's some more stuff hidden there.

Also I looooove noticing parallels between Alicent/Daemon on one side and Alicent/Mysaria on the other. Delicious food.

[horizon-verizon]

Similar arguments for the Velaryon boys, this one put up by @kataraavatara on TikTok!:

I don't understand the position that even without Dotd, Daemon would've killed Alicent’s kids to ensure Rhaenyra got the throne bc like... if he was going to do that, don't you think he would have done it before Viserys died?

Like Aemond beat up and threatened to kill his daughters and claimed his dead wife's dragon at her funeral. If Aemond lived through that then it's pretty obvious Daemon wasn't rubbing his hands together waiting for an opportunity to kill the Hightower kids. Not everything has to be b&c, assassinations would've been easy and relatively inconspicuous compared to if he did it after Viserys died. He obviously had contacts in the keep and greater KL. Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron were sitting ducks they could've been poisoned, pushed through a window, etc. And just like with Rhea Royce, people wouldn't obviously know it was him. If Daemon wanted Alicent Hightower's sons dead, they would've been dead. Especially if he's the villain yall make him out to be.

[ladyofchroyane]

i think most people would hate him if the showrunners decided to stick with canon

let’s not forget Bitterbridge and Tumbleton

daeron the war criminal deserved his pathetic death

[horizon-verizon]

We already knew HOTD was HELLBENT on making Daemon the toxic and abusive villain but this is a new low

https://x.com/daenerysim/status/1793840855914320068

Oh HELL NO!!! [first in a series of links and posts abt the trailers people, inclu me, went mad for]

Pack it up. The nightmare is here.

[lemonhemlock]

The truth about Alicent Hightower: why is she so disliked?

https://youtu.be/t9HjamrAMfU?si=QpoUMPQQSuTWmovz

I found this video on YouTube. I didn't watch the video, but I did read the comments, and many of them were negative toward Alicent. I want to know your thoughts on this video.

The comments are negative towards Alicent because the creator's request for engagement consisted of asking her audience to share why they disliked Alicent. Though I do feel inclined to enquire myself: why are you asking me to react to this video if you haven't even watched it?

Many of these talking points I have already addressed in my lengthy meta posts over time:

There is a conflation of Alicent from the books and Alicent from the show. Show!Alicent was not sent to comfort Jaehaerys and is more innocent and trusting that book!Alicent because she is younger.

Alicent is hated by many viewers for "seducing" Viserys. The creator says she doesn't and denies that people blame her for that, but they do. It's an easily-verified, observable reality and, thus, a strange thing to even say.

Jace/Helaena is not an advantageous marriage for the greens.

"Why was Otto spying on Rhaenyra?" It's literally his job. "He deserved to be fired". It's literally his job to be spying on everyone and report the information back to the King.

The Hightowers are faced with the fait accompli that Aegon will not be named heir. They went into the marriage fully believing that Alicent's sons would overtake Rhaenyra in the line of succession, as was the social norm.

It ultimately comes back to what I was talking about these last few days. This is the result of a conflation of several factors:

ignorance about what medieval social and economic arrangements actually were (what is feudalism? what is manorialism?);

stubbornly clinging to the notion that Westeros is an absolutist monarchy and that "the King's word is law";

downplaying the bastard issue, i.e. refusing to acknowledge how concerning the division of the marital estate was to inheritors and blaming it entirely on misogyny-fueled sex-negativism;

having no concept of what common law is or how it functions.

People can't let go of this image that Westeros is a capitalist modern state with an authoritarian leader (the King). And dragons. (It's Russia, basically. The dragons are bears).

Most of TB's discourse contains some combination of the above, which is why, honestly, at this point, if people are so invested in still talking about this, I would truly suggest a primer in medieval history, because this is getting ridiculous. These reasonings are just not rooted in a tangible basis of reality and trying to engage with them is like fighting windmills.

In the same vein, I wish people would stop bringing up the point of Alicent misunderstanding that Viserys changed his mind on his death bed. I get it, you think it's a dumb argument, but, lo' and behold, it's actually lifted straight from real history and, to the shock of thousands of Twitter users, it worked. What now? Stephen of Blois truly is crying in the afterlife because you think this little trick of his lacks realism. 🤦‍♀️

[darklinaforever]

Ryan Condal is really stupid and doesn't understand anything about the character of Daemon and then he has the audacity to complain that it's the audience that doesn't understand, precisely because the majority found that what he did was to shit ?! No one ever said Daemon was Ned Stark. Daemon is a gray character whose line of conduct is obviously family. Daemon was a good father. A good brother. A good husband. And he didn't kill his first wife either. Daemon is a gray character, who can be the greatest hero (probably for his family) or the greatest villain. And Ryan Condal refuses to show it and continues to demonize the character. I swear reading this crap gives me a headache. In any case, I no longer expect anything from people incapable of understanding that the Greens are the antagonists / villains of history who usurped the throne solely out of greed for power and misogyny, to instead try to make people believe that bullshit about the two camps being equal. Oh, and who also thinks their version of Alicent is more feminist than Fire and Blood. What a sinister fucking joke.

Book readers, probably... at the writers:

[americanprometheuss]

i love it when the voices start speaking to me and they make me realize that the reason i sympathize and feel bad for alicent’s children is because i AM alicent’s children.

i’m the child being overlooked in favor of someone else, the ones who have to watch their mother beg for their father to realize that his inactions are harming me. the one being scorned and sneered upon while being told that my father figure isn’t my father, he’s my authority figure, the one who holds the rod instead of being my nurturer.

i’m aemond after he loses his eye, and is watching alicent beg for viserys to do something to help him. i’m aegon slowly wasting away as he tries to live up to the mantle of king that was forced on his head. i’m heleana who speaks of the misfortunes of her family but is ignored and pitied.

i feel like every person who has been emotionally, physically, mentally, etc. abused in their childhood can find pieces of themselves within each of the green children because they’re just the beacon and poster child of how the same abuse can make so many different types of adults.

[kangaroo-literacy]

I feel like a daemon au for the pitt would go hard

[thesilverlady]

I think many people just like Ewan in blonde wig instead of genuinely liking Aemond's character

this is usually the case for lots of characters but I'm not sure if it works with Ewan, because his social media presence is non existent so ppl don't really know anything. about him beyond what he allows to share.

i do think for all hotd characters ppl love the headcanons they've made up for them. And even in discourses they come into play.

character wise, Aemond had the most work in the show and his aesthetic (eyepatch, tall hight, soft voice, long blond wig) works un his favor

[bohemian-nights]

I'm talking about Book! Daemon:

As someone who is not Daemon Stan I say that book! Daemon really and genuinely loved Nettles; I don't buy it Nettles was her daughter. why in the hell he would choose a bastard over his true born children.

Their goodbye didn't seem platonic at all, it looked like two lovers separating because of the circumstances.

In real life, some men tend to choose their second wives instead of their children and that is Daemon.

Was he selfish? Yes, a selfish husband and father; yet we can see he is capable of genuine care and love and that is the beauty of morally grey characters.

I did know nothing of Fire and Blood and honestly I thought Daemon died for Nyra, but I was wrong, he died because he saw no reason to live and his reason to live was Nettles...

I believe his reason to live used to be Laena and by re-reading your Daemon and Laena fic, Daelaena's conversation and how vulnerable Daemon sounds: he couldn't live without Laena and I remember in another fic( A Baela and Aegon fic) where the authors have made a interesting analysis of book! Daemon and I remember they used to describe Daemon as a cruel man, darkness and stuff but with Laena and his daughters.

Within the sanctuary of their home, Daemon was a simple man, a happy man and if the writers hadn't been cowards(and racists) we would have seen Daemon as happy and content.

He was away from politcs, he couldn't have the throne, but at least he could choose a wife.

then that happy man died when Laena died and shit went down.

With Nettles he was happy and stuff but soon reality hit and Daemon realized he was tired to fight.To live

“why in the hell he would choose a bastard over his true born children.”

That right there is one of the many reasons why she’s not his kid.

That’s not even getting into how someone can read a man bathing with a fully grown woman and think that it’s his daughter. Like do I need to retroactively call CPS for y’all?🚔 Even for Targaryens that is not normal father-daughter behavior👏🏽

It is supper messed up, but when Daemon loves he is just that type of man who prioritizes certain people and says screw the rest. He had that at first with Laena(the showrunners were so wrong for what they did and that’s why I had to write that fix-it fic). Lost that and found it again with Nettles and then lost that(and yes it broke him; leaving poor ugly little ole Nettles broke him).

Again it’s messed up how he eventually ghosted his family because he had to leave Nettles, but at the same time, it’s what in large part makes him morally gray.

Funnily enough, this same dynamic happens with another famous Targaryen man(except he was a total flop who got both his wife and his mistress killed), yet he’s praised for it and people worship that ship…

So people do not mind the grayness. People want Daemon to be gray, but they just don’t like the people(if Nettles looked like Lyanna…) and circumstances that make him gray. They'd rather lie than admit what actually happens.

(Which is stupid because this is all fictional. It's supposed to be fun, none of this should matter, but you guys are really killing the mood when you bring in your real-life biases).

[horizon-verizon]

"all the other men in the room were so eager to question and negate Rhaenyra's every command" --- that was only Corlys and Daemon, and neither actually did this in the original, which goes back to how the show shoehorns unnecessary abuse or psychological overwhelming against their female characters while totally taking out interesting events like Daemon being the one to actually suggest they write to the other houses and not to just go balls to the walls against the greens…Rhaenys was the one who actually said they should take their dragons and go into open war w/the greens--Daemon's protecting Rhaenyra and their own kids (bc Rhaenyra's) vs Rhaenys seeing another usurpation of a woman (something that happened to her) and her showing her eagerness to reclaim that power not only to protect her grandkids but also showing the sort of pride being able to fight some might attribute to men alone...the need to protect or being militantly competent, however, is not an inherently masculine trait, that is a sexist idea

which goes into a critique of how the show dealt w/Daemon: once more, he, of all people, decided he would not override a woman and her claim and rather followed Rhaenyra's wishes and instructions until the last when he couldn't. There is meaning behind this. Daemon is older than Aemond by much and has gone through the experience of being a "spare" yet being a prince, having privilege and power while not being the supreme authority when one's brother is, etc. in a world where masculinity is defined by being the "strongest" or "one of the strongest", conquest, controlling others. Daemon was a wild child who nonetheless found a masculine identity outside of the brazen violence for self-aggrandizement sake encouraged in this society, while Aemond & Aegon both hate their sister so much they usurped her, and by Alicent's instilling in them that their maleness = their deserving of the throne. It also drives Aemond to not help out his own brothers (later in the war) when he really should have. Both go on to actually rape people vs Daemon cheating on his wife. Daemon never ever chooses to really rebel against Viserys either, instead, he raised a band of soldiers to protect Viserys' claim before the Great Council of 101. Aemond would never do something like this w/o someone pressing him or convincing him just right. This tells us that Daemon is much more inspired by a real love of family AND Rhaenyra than Aemond ever was or has been. But instead, the show said, "he's a hotheaded evil man who doesn't try to think of ANYONE, not even his own family's needs when that has never been the case". It's therefore just lazy and reductive, giving more credence to the idea that a man should/does not care about anything other than his own social-political advancement. It's important to point out these differing characters as the foils that they are, bc it emphasizes the gender center that this entire story is made from.

Here is a video of GRRM explaining Daemon as his self and for Rhaenyra.

Let me just get straight to the point since yall are getting on my last nerve:

Fire and Blood is a BIASED IN UNIVERSE HISTORICAL ACCOUNT OF THE DANCE OF THE DRAGONS. COMPARING IT TO THE TV SHOW IS STUPID. "Oh Alicent/Daemon/Rhaenyra/everyone else is supposed to be like this cus in the book—" SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU'RE FUCKING ANNOYING

Daemon is an asshole and a sociopath, and yall are shocked he choked Rhaenyra out of frustration? The guy who mercilessly killed his 1st wife? The guy who lured his young niece to a brothel to ruin her reputation then bailed halfway? I'm sorry but nobody told you to put this guy on any moral high ground. He can love his family AND still be as toxic as a nuclear plant

Aemond is all bravado and pent up childhood rage. He has never known real fucking battle. Of course he loses control of his dragon and accidentally kills someone! That's what happens when you give a teenager a seasoned sentient weapon of mass destruction!!! The way yall paint him as this merciless killer aren't getting the nuance this show wants to present! These kids were not MADE FOR WAR

Rhaenyra is weak for not attacking first? EVEN AEGON DIDN'T WANT WAR. NOBODY WANTED THE WAR THAT IS THE BOTTOMLINE. WAR WOULD RUIN EVERYTHING AND THEY ALL KNEW THAT. Yall are playing into the same damn pattern of misogyny when Daemon and all the other men in the room were so eager to question and negate Rhaenyra's every command

The show has genuine flaws but these are just so annoying to hear over and fucking over. The whole goddamn point of the show is that the Dance was fucking avoidable. If only Rhaenys was crowned instead of Viserys. If only Viserys didn't marry a child. If only he actually loved and cared for his children w/ Alicent. If only he stood firm and faced the internal conflicts brewing in the family head on. If only both sides didn't sow the seeds of animosity between their children. If only Otto didn't poison Alicent's mind with paranoia and a false sense of moral righteousness.

The Dance was avoidable. That's why it's a tragedy. Both sides genuinely believe in the justification of their actions. Everyone's mistakes built on each other until they were too big to fix.

[americanprometheuss]

uhhh is aegon ii literally a piece of shit in hotd (the show)??? yeah but can i relate to him on a spiritual and metaphysical level??? also yes. can i also make him the most mitski coded fictional man known to team green? also yes. in this essay i will…

i literally can do the same with aemond and daemon and literally any other AWFUL AND HORRIBLE AND TERRIBLE character in hotd. it’s my world and i get to decide how to yassify it