#i'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here and be proven wrong later

[whatwouldeddiedo]

i do think there's a reason buck hasn't said the word bisexual yet, btw, and that's that he *hasn't* sorted through all of his feelings. i think he liked tommy and, to him, that's all that mattered. i think the idea that queer people need to experiment a lot IS problematic when speaking on the whole but also queer people, like anyone else, aren't all the same and sometimes you do need more time to reflect and think about who you are and how you define yourself. especially a character like buck, who has always struggled with his sense of self (defining himself by his job and how useful he is, changing himself to suit romantic partners, etc).

buck hasn't really sat in his feelings about his sexuality yet because at the time and all this time, all that mattered was that he's into tommy. he saw a future with tommy, and so thinking about it further probably didn't really (and likely still doesn't) matter a lot to him. he just knew, hey, all this time i thought i was straight, but actually i guess i'm not!

but i think we might get there, and i think it's really strange that so many people have just...decided they know where the story is going. we still have all of 8b and a couple of episodes of 8a to go, and the story is definitely still coming into itself. saying that it's bad representation of bisexuality to me is premature because we just don't know where it's going.

we just don't know. could it end up being really awful? sure. but it also could end up being a great story of someone who has always been searching to find themselves and learning to define themselves in their own terms. which may not end up being on your terms, or my terms, but it will be on buck's terms.

and i think that's what's ultimately going to be important. i still think, regardless of some of the things he's said that may not have been perfectly well thought out, oliver cares about telling this story. i think he's wanted to do this for a long time, and i think he really enjoys getting to play this version of buck, and he doesn't know what's going to happen anymore than we do.

maybe i'm being naive and maybe i'm being a little too hopeful but i've loved this show since i watched the first episode, even though that wasn't only about 6 months ago. I've loved Evan Buckley since the moment I saw him. I think it just needs time.

[proxissima]

I originally didn't want to talk about the Mark/Cecil conflict in the new season, but going into the Cecil tag incited me enough to put in my own two cents.

First things first, I don't think Cecil was necessarily wrong for having a backup plan or using any resource available just to be able to have some sort of defence against an insurmountable alien power.

My issue is a different one.

I personally think the entire conflict felt extremely contrived as it had been presented in the story.

You're telling me that the man who has a backup plan to a backup plan, has seen through Omni-Man's lies in their first meeting (though the reveal of Nolan turning out to having been such an incompetent liar is another complaint I have with this season), has been manipulating/deceiving Debbie, Mark, basically all of the guardians for years, would be dumb enough to outright attack Mark in front of EVERYONE - which also was completely out of the blue from the guardians' POV - and expect them to remain on his side??

Cecil's more than proven himself to be a capable strategist in the past and you seriously want to tell me that he couldn't have thought to appease Mark's doubts and just de-escalate the whole situation instead of springing all that "you're scaring me, so by the way, here are all the methods I've concocted behind your back to hurt/kill you" on Mark?

This was the same guy who went to face Omni-Man directly just to buy time and he was a hairs-breadth away from getting turned into paste, but now he lost his nerves immediately and thought that was the ideal moment to demonstrate to Mark just how little he trusts him?

Mark had simply been upset at the revelation that two ex-criminals were working for Cecil and wanted to confront him about it, but that was just a hero's outrage over grey morals. I'd still argue that that was nothing that couldn't have been smoothed over ultimately (not that there wouldn't be any negative consequences for the relationship between them in the long run), but this Cecil saw an insect and decided that nuking the entire town was a perfectly proportional response.

You can't tell me he had no clue about Mark's character because 1) he was witness to how Mark reacted to his father's rampage, 2) he'd continuously kept tabs on his entire family, friends & love interests via observation AND via the nanny. From all those terabytes of data, any basic AI would've told Cecil that Mark wouldn't suddenly go rogue and murder Cecil on the spot because he was a little angry in that moment.

It would've made somewhat more sense if Cecil had attacked Mark because he genuinely wanted to be rid of the potential threat Mark as a Viltrumite posed (which would, overall, still be incredibly fucking stupid in the given circumstances) and then actually go through with it from start to finish, no half measures garbage.

But instead, this Cecil - while he was sicking the Reanimen on Mark and ADDITIONALLY dropping the bomb on him that he'd had a self-destruct button implanted into Mark's brain against the latter's will or knowledge - for some ungodly reason was STILL acting like Mark was being the drama queen here and expected Mark to be open to dialogue at that point. And after all of this, Cecil was somehow surprised when Mark refused to listen and was defending himself because he was fearing for his life.

Not to mention that Cecil provoked Mark to flee to the guardians, where Cecil, entirely unprompted, continued to escalate, all in front of the gathered team, who had had no clue about the nature of the Reanimen and had previously clearly been willing to give Cecil the benefit of the doubt OVER Mark. The team had also been completely uninvolved in the conflict between them, which meant that Cecil, had he not attacked Mark first, still possibly could've spun the story like Mark was actually the one in the wrong, when they did get involved. (I'm gonna say that it undoubtedly would've been difficult since Cecil had already told Mark about the bomb prior, so atp the split up might've still happened in the end, albeit without the actual fight)

I'd argue legit none of this would've happened, however, had Cecil only turned his brain on, played his cards right and, most importantly, KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT ABOUT THE COUNTERMEASURES. At the worst, Mark might've left the group, but Cecil could've just told the guardians about Sinclair and Darkwing, and they most likely would've seen reason, shrugged, and continued working for Cecil. They only split up, after all, when the question of Cecil only viewing them as weapons to be used and discarded at will came up, which, again, would never have happened had Cecil just not told Mark shit about plans B & C.

Tl;dr so yeah, my issue isn't about Mark or Cecil being right or wrong, it's about Cecil being a fucking dumbass who revealed all his trump cards in a mustache-twirling villain fashion for no reason at all. This felt like a weak-point to the story itself, because Cecil's decisions were just mind-bogglingly stupid and uncharacteristically reckless (OOC).

[enchantedbyhiddles]

Hello! Same anon as last night here! Firstly, I did take slight offense to being called "utterly selfish, ignorant, and very naive," since I'm not fond of name-calling and think it counterproductive, but it's your prerogative to call me what you like and I understand where you're coming from when you say that (: But thanks for being super nice otherwise! It's nice being able to have a calm and rational conversation with someone about politics! I tried to keep my response shorter this time but...

[again very long]

Anyway, you said that Trumphas not given a stance on the economy or foreign relations, which is untrue; Iresearched it before I voted. Yes, it’s vague in some places, but it’s concretein others and his vague direction is one I approved of more than Clinton’s concreteone. And yes, Trump pulled out of a couple treaties. One of them I disagreedwith anyway, so I was pleased with that. You then go on to say“probably” and “might” a few times, which is fair…

It MIGHT go terribly wrongand our economy will collapse… or PERHAPS it will improve! It’s hard foranyone to say at this stage, to be quite honest, when it comes to the economy.He’s been president for four days, haha. I’ll be giving him the benefit of thedoubt, for now. The wall idea is stupid, I agree. As anything he does with theenvironment, just throwing that out there. As for me, I’m far from rich – andI’m not registered Republican, I’m registered as an independent (:

I’m lower middle class. My family has been hit very hard bythe state of the economy (health insurance costs going up after the ACA didn’thelp either). The No.1 priority for me when voting was the economy. I don’twant to see my mom crying over bills again, or hear that my dad skips mealswhen his kids aren’t at his house to save money to feed us when we’re there(they’re divorced). I voted for the candidate I believed, after research, wouldbest help with this.

Is Trump sexist? Yes. RacistHighly likely, or at least deeply prejudiced. The chance that he may passpolicy through Congress AND the Supreme Court that removes the rights ofAmericans (unlikely, imo) was a chance I was willing to take in the hope thathe’d make changes to the economy, foreign relations, national debt, etc. forlong-lasting prosperity for myself and my future children. Perhaps if eitherparty had come up with less shitty candidates… but alas, they didn’t.

end, I voted for a candidatethat I hoped would take the country in a direction I’d prefer, based on theissues that mattered most to me, rather than the candidate I KNEW would not.What I’ve learned from this election is that the more politics polarizespeople, through name-calling and demonizing, the more we’re going to getcandidates like Trump and Clinton. It’s sad that neither side even tries to compromiseanymore.

I wasn’t name-callingyou. It shows again utter selfishness and ignorance that you are more concernedwith me describing you based on your behaviour and views than you are withother people losing rights or the candidate you voted for accusing others ofcrimes, encouraging others to commit crimes, and actually defaming a large partof the people. I have to say as a European seeing parts of your utterly disgusting campaign made me lose a lot of hope in humanity and also showed me that for big parts there won’t be the ability to compromise, because a lot of words can’t ever be taken back. Not that Trump tries.

You can disagree withClinton’s economic views and put your hope on Trump, but it doesn’t add up andit doesn’t take an economist to see that. He will spend more on military, spentbillions on a wall, will take less taxes from companies. The only thing thisadds up to is a huge national debt. When asked how he wants to avoid that hedeflected. That has to bring up all red flags. I’ve yet to read an independenteconomist that says there is a way this can work out. It looks like he tries tocreate a tax haven, but that only works for small, non-producing countries thatare working together with countries that are economically more powerful.

What you totally ignoreis that even if this tax haven idea helps a few economies that won’t help youor your family at all. Unregulated capitalism never favours economically disadvantagedpersons. Take a look to Russia. Inform yourself of what happened with the oligarchyafter the collapse of the Soviet Republic. That’s what you are looking forwardto. A few rich people getting richer and the rest suffering. (or read “Capital:Critique of a Political Economy” by Karl Marx – it’s still one of the bestreadings on capitalism and how it works)

The ACA has nothing todo with the economy of the country. I can understand if it left you personallyin a less financial stable situation (which I don’t know in detail), but theeconomy of the USA won’t help you reduce those costs. Totally unrelated.  

Again you are ignorantand make up your own facts by blocking out a what is happening already. Youfavour your hopes over facts. Look around you what bills he first introducedthe last days and which rights he already abolished. Freedom of the Press?Gone. Freedom of the Speech? Gone in big parts. Freedom of information? Replaced with alternative facts LIES. Safety? Gone if you are NativeAmerican and now get a high-risk project build on sacred ground. Gone if youare in need of health care provided by the ACA and/or PP. Not even talkingabout the environment, which is the biggest issue to even have a future. Etc.Etc. Etc.

I can’t even keep upwith all the highly frightening propositions he makes left and right.

Getting rid of TTIP, whichI hate myself, because it would have given the USA a huge advantage over Europeand would have introduced high-risk, unregulated capitalistic practices here,doesn’t even come close to being worthy of all the other shit that happens. Andthat shit doesn’t even affect me right now, while TTIP would have.

Do you look at the workhe does now and think: well done! That’s what I voted for?

Do you believe Trump? Doyou believe in lies? 

I’m really unable to fathom that people look at him and think “yeah, great”. Not because of his politics, but because he is a disgusting person and a horrible liar. That’s not an opinion, but those are proven facts. Even by that I’m putting it mildly, what I really feel.

Again, I’m thankful thatyou are respectful towards me. That doesn’t make up though for the things yousay. While you are not offensive and ignorant towards me, your views are toothers that will get harmed from the things you did. I don’t know what youexpect. Sympathy or understanding for your voting? I can’t and don’t want togive you that. You said why you voted and explained yourself, but in my opinionthat doesn’t justify this ignorance or support of a horrible person at all.

I have to say that Ithink that this dialogue is somewhat running in circles here. You said what youwanted to say and I don’t think I can add anything useful but throwing articlesand facts at you, that I’m quite sure you wouldn’t give a damn about anyway.Articles that are in-depths analysis why you are heading towards fascism, etc.Feel free to message me again, if feel you have anything more to add. I thank youfor coming to me and opening-up like this. It was interesting and insightfulfor me, even if you might feel that I was rude towards you.