#specifically with. my friend. who isn't talking to me

[holoska]

after debating for weeks whether to stay very far away from the deltarune soriel discourse or let myself ramble about my faves like I want to, the latter has finally won out

I've had time to properly absorb the weight of all that happens at the end of chapter 4, and obviously I do feel for both kris and susie. that is The Point of the scenes being from their perspectives; after everything they just went through and all the worry they had for toriel's safety (for the second time in 24 hours!), the scene they come home to is maybe the most uncomfortable slap in the face possible. it sticks out to me that the last thing susie talks about before the dark fountain is sealed is her wanting tomorrow to be the same as yesterday and for everything to always be able to go back to how it was, and that's what greets them - a blatant, obnoxious sign that things are changing. even though the scene has a lighthearted side, its overall tone adds to the downcast feeling the chapter ends on.

having said that, as someone who has spent the past 9 and a half years being normal about sans and toriel, I'm still very very happy that this is a canon scene we got 💜

the fandom may be largely not considering their perspectives in the slightest (or worse, only viewing their perspectives from the most bad faith angles possible), but I for one love this for them!! as other very good posts have pointed out, toriel has been sorely in need of someone who's there for her - an awful lot of people in town saw the divorce play out and have something to say about it, the holiday family are closer to asgore than toriel, kris is her child and stuck in the middle of their parents' issues, and while she's friends with alphys, them being coworkers and alphys being kris' teacher likely puts a distance of sorts between them. but sans is new in town, someone she immediately connects with, who has no pre-existing opinions about her family and has seen firsthand what toriel has to put up with from asgore. in every universe, sans is exactly the kind of person toriel needs in her life.

there's less to work with from sans' perspective given how little we know about him, and I'm not all-in on sans being from deltarune just yet (more specifically I do love the theory, I'm just giving myself room to not be too disappointed if it doesn't happen), but the new version of it's raining somewhere else being named 'the place where it rained' emotionally destroys me forever. either way it drives home just how happy toriel makes sans in both worlds and I love that so so much :']

to be clear I'm not saying they did nothing wrong, their choices negatively impacted kris and susie and they were objectively disruptive and inconsiderate after kris went to bed. but I like that they're being messy and flawed, because it means this isn't just "my faves are getting closer in the background yippee" but that their relationship is potentially an actual part of the story, and that's how you get The Good Stuff!! we wouldn't have had meaningful character moments like noelle finally standing up to queen if queen hadn't tried to control noelle and just listened to her from the start, or susie comforting ralsei with her bloodied hand if he'd told her and kris every detail of the full prophecy the moment he met them and never kept any secrets. if all the hints towards a flower shop dark world turn out to be true then it's pretty clear the story is building things up to make those future character moments hit, and considering we still don't know what happened with the dreemurr divorce at this point, chapter 5 seems like a perfect opportunity to dive into all of that.

plus, as sweet as susie's bond with toriel is, I honestly think susie seeing this side of toriel needed to happen. a lot of the fandom's complaints about toriel right now boil down to her not being the "perfect mother" they thought she was, and what bothers me about that is toriel was never meant to be that kind of character. toby has said that she's not the classic video game protagonist's mother who sees you off on your journey and you can come home and visit any time, and nothing changes and she never has any substantial character of her own. in undertale she literally handholds frisk through the tutorial, she becomes the first boss in her attempt to protect them when every other human left her care, and once they leave she won't let them come back or even call her phone because she can't face seeing them knowing they'll leave again and likely be killed. she's more than just the mother figure of the game, she's her own person with likes and dislikes, hobbies and flaws, and a past and trauma she can't overcome until the best ending.

we've only seen the tip of the iceberg of her history in deltarune, but that same principle holds true: she isn't the perfect parent you return to after each day's adventure, who gives you butterscotch pancakes every morning and never has any real part in the story because that isn't the intent behind her character. she mentioned her loneliness back in chapter 1, kris has secrets and problems they aren't letting her in on, asgore is being relentlessly inconsiderate of her boundaries, and for all susie's praise of toriel being a good mother, I think that house of cards was going to fall eventually. my hope is that, like her blowing up at ralsei ultimately bringing them closer, susie being able to see toriel as the imperfect adult she is but one who does genuinely care might help them build a stronger bond in the end too.

I think I always knew that if soriel ever inched closer to being canon there'd be discourse about it, and toriel slander is unfortunately nothing new. people are just being annoying about it currently and it sucks when I genuinely love what's being built up here!!

anyway crossing my fingers for a scene where toriel invites sans to the festival before she gets thrown in the bunker/he gets sent to undertale/the roaring happens/all of the above 🤞

[panfroggy]

Thunderbolts, Thunderbugs!

(Thunderbolts as bugs time here we go)

So I took my best friends to see this movie. After making them cry a few times, my bug loving friend and I discussed what bug each Thunderbolt would be. So, here we go this is gonna be a long post. It’s me talking about bugs and over analyzing things

Cut for any creeped out by bugs! For the rest, read away.

Yelena Belova - Paper Wasp

First one we decided on so let's talk about our queen Yelena first. Yelena is a wasp, for sure, and a lot of wasp species act generally the same so that doesn't matter a ton. However, paper wasps in particular are a lot nicer then other species. Unlike yellow jackets (hate those guys), paper wasps typically only attack if their homes are threatened. I think this shows Yelena's practical approach to violence, everything she does she does for a reason. Also, on a sadder note, female wasps are typically not the 'fighters' of their groups. They stay and take care of the brood. I think this could match the fact that Yelena was forced into a life that she wasn't 'made for' or at least a life she had no choice in. Beautiful, dangerous, and amazing team player; Yelena is a wasp.

Ava Starr - Ghost Mantis

Okay that one's pretty obvious on name alone but I have more reasons. One being the nature of mantises. Many mantis species move so quickly you can hardly see them, corrosponding with Ava's powers. Mantis are also deceptively strong bugs and the ghost mantis had this sort of weird beauty to it that I really enjoy and think matches Ava. Ghost mantis are also on the smallest side of the mantis family and females particularly will play dead as to help their camoflauge better hide them. I think this fits Ava's tendency to hide literaly and metaphorically.

John Walker - Ant-Mimicking Spider

Originally I said Walker was a fire ant. Incredibly strong, annoying and mean as hell, and a great team player. Then, my wonderful and intelligent friend brought up the ant-mimicking spider. Not only does this allow me to keep my ant reasonings, it also highlights another part of Walker's character. He adopts a persona that isn't his own, we see this majorly in TFATWS and it carries through into Thunderbolts*. Walker is trying to be something he isn't, at first Captain America and then he tries to project the image of a happy father to Yelena, Bob, and Ava in the Vault. Walker is a mimic of things prior and he struggles heavily trying to be someone he isnt, but by the end of the movie we see him become who he's supposed to be. That being, U.S Agent. Also, these spiders put up their front two legs when mimicking an ant and that could move into how Walker is the one to put his shield up and dive into action first.

Bob Reynolds - Miyama Stag Beetle

Or just a stag beetle if you dont wanna be too specific. Bob was second hardest and I went back and forth on this but I like a stag beetle for a few reasons. One, Miyama stags are one of the smaller stag beetle species. Not the smallest or the largest, but compared to those MASSIVE ones you can find they're littler. Still, these are crazy strong bugs and that corelates with Bob's weak looking appearence compared to the power he posseses as the Sentry. Smaller reason I chose this specific stag beetle, it's black to match the Void. Also, all beetles start at meek little grubs and become the tanks that they are. To me this matches how Bob was just a troubled young adult that got turned into something greater. Also, I think they're cute.

Honorable mention to the Mole Cricket, solely because they have the same face.

Alexei Shostakov - Elephant Beetle

Okay this ones easy. Look at the SIZE of him. Big and powerful creature, yet they look terribly friendly. This one wasn't even a debate with the afformentioned bug friend, I was shown the elephant beetle and instantly agreed. I don't have as many story or character related reasons for this one. Purely based on shape and vibe. Big ass beetle, take it or leave it. If you want a little bit of character, while not done by elephant beetles, some species of beetle (mostly burying beetles) are good parents! So there you go.

Bucky Barnes - Buck Moth

This is another one where the name is doing some heavy lifting but stay with me! One, the color scheme. Two, the name. Three, the caterpillars of buck moths are hella venomous and just touching them can cause you some major ouch. Bucky is a pretty prickly guy. Also, buck moths are endangered and Bucky is a pretty endagered species seing that he's of a dead generation and made by a (thankfully) dead orginization. I also like a moth for him because, despite all the terrible things that this man has put up with, he's still attracted to the light. To being a good guy.

So Yeah. ThunderBugs! If some big old bug nerds want to tell me how this is all wrong uh.. do or don't man I'm going off vibes and wikipedia articles and prior knowledge. im doing my best.

:]

[violenteconomics]

there's this theory i was talking about with my friend last night where everything that happens in starlight express is just one big allegory for stuff that happens in control's actual, real life.

which honestly devastates me, because real life isn't like a musical. not everyone who deserves it gets a happy ending, or any kind of resolution at all. so this is basically like this kid who wants the people around him to be happy so badly that he dreams about it (and also can come up with banger original songs on the spot in his subconscious, which is pretty impressive if kinda weird).

specifically, we were talking about greaseball and dinah, and how dinah's probably control's big sister or smth, which means that greaseball is her girlfriend irl.

and so if that's true, that probably means irl dinah and irl greaseball are broken up. it probably means control's heard dinah crying about it from his bedroom late at night. it probably means that he knows greaseball did something wrong and he desperately wants her to apologize for it, but she likely just... hasn't yet.

control wants irl dinah to be happy so badly that he literally dreams about her having a happy ending where it all turns out well, even though that's definietely not how real life works.

or maybe i'm just being delulu rn who knows.

[fishparasite]

i wanna talk about nate and david :(

[katsigian]

Idk I think that if a person never reblogs anyone else's creations/posts, never talks to anyone, never even extends a simple friendly gesture to anyone, and never even likes anyone else's posts/creations

Then maybe they don't have a reason to complain about not finding any connection to anyone online and don't have a reason to complain about how 'cold' fandom is. Pot, meet kettle.

They're part of the reason why fandom feels unwelcoming. It takes zero effort to just like someone's post they made. It takes zero effort to hit the reblog button - you don't even have to put tags! - and let someone know that their posts are being acknowledged. Maybe then these people who complain about having no connection would indeed find connection

[batsplat]

It actually kills me that Pecco is Valentino’s #1 protege bc I kinda feel like had they both met in like…2000 (let’s say they were the same age somehow) I feel like the mutual vibe between them would’ve been kinda like…“hm this guy SUCKS”.

Do u agree? I can see younger Vale being a little intrigued by Pecco, & Pecco being a little starstuck (like younger Casey) but I just think their vibes are so incompatible. Particularly compared w the other academy boys, who I think are slightly better fits…(except, hilariously, I would also say Luca is another kind of outlier).

IDK. Anyway thank u for all your amazing answers & historical knowledge batsplat <3 I so appreciate all the time you take to answer these questions & lay out the full surrounding context to things <3

first off, thank you!! that's really lovely!! secondly. hm this is a fun one I hadn't really thought about. the thing about the young casey comparison + what his relationship with valentino looked like is that he is six and a half-ish years younger than valentino... which feeds into why he's so starstruck. that's a very different dynamic from being valentino's direct peer, I feel. I kinda think the problem you have for any italian in vaguely that same age bracket is that it's just going to be tough to handle being so completely outshone by valentino. like, let's not speculate about results here because that's a fool's errand - in terms of actual popularity, there just isn't really any rider you could put alongside young valentino for that to be a remotely equal contest. and that inequity is worse if you're italian... you're not even going to have your home crowd rooting for you, right. the media attention will be 98% focused on the other guy. melandri's a good case study here, as a guy who's just a bit younger than valentino and highly rated in his junior years, but whose own relationship with valentino seemed to kinda sour over the years for various reasons. melandri is admittedly a bit of an odd bloke in his own right and is also a bit odd in the way he talks about valentino, but he's spoken a fair bit about how tough it was feeling like nobody in italy gave a shit about him with valentino around. which must be tough! there's 'working in silence' and then there's being 'practically invisible'... and that does also inevitably affect the relationship I reckon. you have to have an ego at pecco's level - and that kind of ego would always take some bruising if you have to come up against valentino in his full pomp

in terms of their actual interpersonal dynamic, it's always important to remember valentino got on pretty well with basically almost everyone!! especially in those early years, you don't even really have the same wariness of potential rivals. like, once he gets to the premier class it's more or less 'biaggi' and 'not biaggi'. he never has any issues with his title rival in 2000, kenny roberts jr. he's always gotten on very well with countryman and 1998 title rival capirossi, who he remained good friends with even when they were kinda *hand wiggles* title rivals in 2006. capirossi should have been more of a title contender that season and could well have gone on to win that title, but he got taken out in catalunya through no fault of his own - so not really any time for tensions to develop, which makes it a bit tricky to judge what that might have done to the relationship. when valentino and him have a tight duel in sepang later that season and valentino puts on a rather stern last lap defence to win that race (got to be one of his most underappreciated rides, he has like three classic race wins in 2006 I never see anyone discuss), capirossi climbs on his lap during the podium ceremony. so, y'know. capirossi is admittedly a way milder character than pecco, but it is notable how fond he remains of valentino throughout. though unlike pecco he does play into one of valentino's core weaknesses - valentino's fondness for having a little guy around. if you shave off ten centimetres from pecco then he'd basically be set for life

that being said, I agree they probably wouldn't be particularly close lol. prime valentino is probably a little too much for pecco, like you imagine they'd be cordial but pecco's just a tad reserved and wants to assert a bit of autonomy. which actually places him in a pretty decent position for that relationship to not blow up completely in his face - you kinda feel like he'd straddle the line between not being as abrasive as biaggi and not having *gestures vaguely* whatever that was between valentino and sete. the nicky hayden principle, right - who got through two teammate stints with valentino and actually beating him to a title with that relationship completely intact. cf hayden saying that valentino never played any mind games with him, that valentino didn't change his behaviour towards hayden depending on the points gap etc. valentino might "know how to play people", but he's not doing it with just anyone

some of this does inevitably depend on how much of a competitive threat pecco is in this hypothetical timeline. and if you actually put him in the dani/casey/jorge age bracket then all bets are off. it's basically the opposite of what I was saying with casey and jorge, where you'd imagine valentino-the-mentor-figure would have been an incredibly helpful presence for those two guys specifically. the thing about valentino is that he's very adept at being both valentino-the-rival and valentino-the-mentor-figure, but those two roles just look completely different. decent mentor all things considered, considerably less fun to have as a rival. and with pecco... I mean, you're basically dealing with a less prickly less neurotic casey-type, aren't you. pecco has the edge over casey in that he's not quite as... you know. how do I say this diplomatically. I don't think pecco would spend half the season complaining about valentino 'moaning and whinging' and then feature valentino's name on his title-winning shirt, let's put it that way. even with the italian factor, I reckon he'd manage to be at least 2% more normal about valentino, which probably would also help make the dynamic with valentino a bit more normal. and I'm sure valentino would come up with some horribly inventive ways of tormenting pecco and I do reckon he's absolutely up to that task, but I don't think something like laguna 2008 specifically would be the way to go about it. doesn't feel like you could quite blow up that relationship with a single race. the thing about laguna 2008 is that it's very bespoke casey torture, like that does not hit nearly as well against any other rival. ... I just realised I spent a good five minutes daydreaming about what advice I'd give valentino to crack pecco, which. anyways. let's cut it off there. but yeah, that would've been quite a fun match-up actually - specifically because pecco is such an annoyingly excellent defensive rider. arguably better at that than any of valentino's major rivals, which given valentino's MO you'd think would throw up its own distinct challenge

where the casey example IS instructive is in reminding you what an annoyingly charismatic bastard valentino is. I kind of feel like if you can have that kind of an effect on baby casey, you probably can make any of these undersocialised brats fall head over heels for you if you have a good swing at it. there's also the interesting question of what happens to pecco if you take away the vr46 support structure (obviously we're assuming he's still making it to motogp). my sense is you take away a little bit of... not his self-belief, exactly, or even his confidence necessarily - just a sense of security, of comfort in his own skin. I do reckon it makes him a bit more casey-ish in some aspects, just a touch more brittle and likely to take things personally... but, well, obviously we are now in the realm of very far-flung speculation. idk! whatever the exact age permutations between him and valentino would be, my sense is that valentino is charming enough and pecco is susceptible enough to being charmed that it's not like. open revulsion from day one. and to some extent, pecco's canonical willingness to let valentino hog the spotlight would stand him in good stead - it's like when casey said he didn't want to be the next valentino... these aren't necessarily guys who would even want that kind of attention on them. which does feel like a different dynamic to melandri doing his own showy celebrations. they DO want to be liked, maybe more than either of them are willing to admit, they both have a similarly pronounced sensitivity to being misinterpreted - but I don't feel like pecco would be killing himself with envy over valentino's reach in italy. maybe just a little bit, because that is probably normal in that situation... but I reckon he'd work through it

anyway, yeah. my thing is I don't actually give anyone a particularly high chance of surviving valentino's initial charm onslaught unscathed and I... don't feel like pecco would be an exception to that? the closest exception is jorge, but valentino never tried to charm him - and also jorge was still aggressively deeply weird about valentino so I'm not sure that's the template. cf how jorge still not managing to shut up about how fantastic valentino's celebrations were even when they were in an actual title fight. so yeah, idk. I don't see any reason why valentino would react that negatively towards pecco, who definitely comes across more like casey than he does like jorge and wouldn't immediately register as an active nuisance to valentino. I don't think they'd be FRIENDS and maybe they wouldn't match each other's vibe particularly well... interesting question actually if they'd have better or worse interpersonal chemistry than casey and valentino. maybe a bit worse? pecco's perhaps somewhat more guarded and world-weary from day one, so maybe a tad better at just keeping his distance and playing things by ear. pecco's natural wariness would probably do him quite a lot of good there and just make sure things... maybe get a bit unpleasant between him and valentino but never actively terrible. maybe the closest analogue would be a snippier, slightly brittler version of dovi, actually. two guys who get on pretty well but just move in different circles - with relatively restrained open animosity unless the competitive situation demands otherwise

[liquidstar]

a friend who'd wait :)

[benetnvsch]

trusting people's words is not enough , I need to be able to read their minds -

[maddy-ferguson]

i have a crush on someone i met a month and a half ago who i only saw for a week then that i'm seeing again for a week now and that i'm gonna see for four more weeks from now until june this is what life is all about

[gu6chan]

most cathartic moment of my life was last night when me and my sister were yapping to each other about our least favourite pieces of media ever and i showed her ONE scene from DOD3 after bitching about it for like a million hours and she was just "okay i see why you think every dod3 fan is a horrible person what the fuck is this"

[snepfeathers]

I need some good advice.

About 2 and a half year ago. I had a close friend ghost me on a lot of platforms.

But Recently I found them on ticktok with a discord link.

What sude I do.. ask them way they ghosted me or just let it go and realized that friendship die a long time ago.

you have received.... a trick!

your emoji kitchen combination is: ghost and alarm clock!

happy halloween!

[jangyeevns]

sometimes it's nice to just let others decide if you're worth their time versus constantly wondering if you're imposing

[subjectsix]

I don't know I'm not done talking about it. It's insane that I can't just uninstall Edge or Copilot. That websites require my phone number to sign up. That people share their contacts to find their friends on social media.

I wouldn't use an adblocker if ads were just banners on the side funding a website I enjoy using and want to support. Ads pop up invasively and fill my whole screen, I misclick and get warped away to another page just for trying to read an article or get a recipe.

Every app shouldn't be like every other app. Instagram didn't need reels and a shop. TikTok doesn't need a store. Instagram doesn't need to be connected to Facebook. I don't want my apps to do everything, I want a hub for a specific thing, and I'll go to that place accordingly.

I love discord, but so much information gets lost to it. I don't want to join to view things. I want to lurk on forums. I want to be a user who can log in and join a conversation by replying to a thread, even if that conversation was two days ago. I know discord has threads, it's not the same. I don't want to have to verify my account with a phone number. I understand safety and digital concerns, but I'm concerned about information like that with leaks everywhere, even with password managers.

I shouldn't have to pay subscriptions to use services and get locked out of old versions. My old disk copy of photoshop should work. I should want to upgrade eventually because I like photoshop and supporting the business. Adobe is a whole other can of worms here.

Streaming is so splintered across everything. Shows release so fast. Things don't get physical releases. I can't stream a movie I own digitally to friends because the share-screen blocks it, even though I own two digital copies, even though I own a physical copy.

I have an iPod, and I had to install a third party OS to easily put my music on it without having to tangle with iTunes. Spotify bricked hardware I purchased because they were unwillingly to upkeep it. They don't pay their artists. iTunes isn't even iTunes anymore and Apple struggles to upkeep it.

My TV shows me ads on the home screen. My dad lost access to eBook he purchased because they were digital and got revoked by the company distributing them. Hitman 1-3 only runs online most of the time. Flash died and is staying alive because people love it and made efforts to keep it up.

I have to click "not now" and can't click "no". I don't just get emails, they want to text me to purchase things online too. My windows start search bar searches online, not just my computer. Everything is blindly called an app now. Everything wants me to upload to the cloud. These are good tools! But why am I forced to use them! Why am I not allowed to own or control them?

No more!!!!! I love my iPod with so much storage and FLAC files. I love having all my fics on my harddrive. I love having USBs and backups. I love running scripts to gut suck stuff out of my Windows computer I don't want that spies on me. I love having forums. I love sending letters. I love neocities and webpages and webrings. I will not be scanning QR codes. Please hand me a physical menu. If I didn't need a smartphone for work I'd get a "dumb" phone so fast. I want things to have buttons. I want to use a mouse. I want replaceable batteries. I want the right to repair. I grew up online and I won't forget how it was!

[suiana]

80s yandere bully and reader who's more than eager to show him what it means to be a student in the current age.

it starts out like any normal day. you're at your locker, scrolling social media because you have nothing better to do while your friend yaps to you. all seems well, until it isn't. why? because there, in the middle of the corridor, stands a guy that looks like he belongs in some Disney movie. to be specific, he would most likely be casted as the jock bully.

pale skin, blond hair, blue eyes that look like they're staring into your soul, and that red varsity jacket that shouts peaking at high school...

"hey nerd! why don't you hand me all your lunch money?"

pause.

you look up, one eyebrow raised. wow, even his voice sounds like some stereotypical disney bully. you look around, trying to find the hidden camera. none. this... this youtube prank is kinda well made, you've got to admit.

"uh... double it and give it to the next person."

yeah, that should do it. you go back to scrolling your phone, feeling satisfied in your answer. mhm, that's right, it's probably just some stupid prank anyway.

but all you got was a mocking laugh and a hand coming up to cage you by the locker.

"what? what nonsense are you spouting dummy? I'm asking for lunch money! why don't you hand it over?"

oh... it, uh, sounds like he's serious huh? you awkwardly scratch at your neck, placing your phone into your pocket. hm...

seeing him closely, he does have some scratches and bruises. ah, you see.

"look man, I don't have any cash on me right now. do you accept cashapp? paypal? apple pay? i can send some money over. i know times are tough right now, with the economy and stuff."

he must be poor, that's what you deducted obviously. i mean, lunch money? you feel bad for him, he seems to be suffering more than you.

but if anything, he looks almost offended?

"what?" he gets into your personal space, teeth bared at you. "are you taking me for some joke, nerd?"

"aren't you like, asking for money? I'll give it to you. gotta hit my daily good person quota for the month."

"you-!" he hisses at you, cheeks turning a light pink. you're confused, lips pursing. well, he seems... that he doesn't need money?

"well since you're so smart... why don't you do my homework for me?"

he then shoves a stack of papers at you, face desperately trying to hide the nervous quiver of his lip. damn it...! what's going on?! he knows he travelled into the future but... but he didn't expect this! this... this arrogance! no one would've stood up to him back in his time! what on earth is this?!

unfortunately it's only getting worse.

"dude just use chatgpt, I don't have the answers to these. matter of fact, I don't even take this class."

his jaw tightens.

"so? do it for me! if you don't... well I'll just publicly humiliate you tomorrow!"

a snort.

"kinky, I'm into that just so you know."

he lets out a frustrated groan. what the hell? just... just what is going on?! he's trying his best to intimidate this... this awfully adorable looking nerd but it's not working at all! not in the slightest!

he's using all his best tactics but it's no use in the face of you. just what the hell do you want him to do?

"you're lowkey kinda a loser and that's my type. you wanna date?"

he swears he feels his heart stop. a... loser? him? this 80s bully quickly looks around, trying to figure out if you're talking to someone else or him. no one. he feels that tight knot in his stomach relax. just... something about hearing you date someone else makes him uncomfortable. jealous.

isn't that weird? he just met you. is this love at first sight?

"don't you dare call me a loser you nerd!"

"sorry my man, you just act like one."

he shoots a glare at you, hands fisting. calm down, don't show them how much they affect you. he pushes away after clicking his tongue.

"urgh! just you wait! I'll be back to show you who's in charge, nerd!"

and then he stomps off, leaving a trail of papers in his wake. damn, did he even realize he was doing this in a public server? there's so many people around.

meanwhile you're just left there with one question.

"so are we dating?"

[earlgraytay]

So, you've probably all seen this post going around, about how The Chuds Want Gentleman's Clubs (but can't afford to go to the things called "gentlemen's clubs" today, so wouldn't have been able to in the past either). And I hate to say it, but that post isn't accurate.

The things we call "gentlemen's clubs" today and the things that were called "gentleman's clubs" in the past are not the same thing; the one is descended from the other, but they used to be a lot more common and served a purpose that they don't really serve anymore.

The modern equivalent of the historical gentleman's club isn't the thing currently called a gentleman's club; it's the premium airport lounge. And by losing the concept for all but the turbo-rich, I think we genuinely have lost something! Let me explain.

(NOTA BENE: This is mostly about England and from about 1880-1930, and most of my experience with this is from fiction written in that era. I know enough to know what I don't know, but I also know menswear guy is wrong about this.)

So- gentlemen's clubs started in *wiggles hands* the late 1700s, and mostly served a particular purpose: they were places you could stay in a city if you mostly lived in the country, instead of staying in lodgings or owning your own place. Finding a place to stay in London was kind of a misery at the best of times, and owning your own house in Town wasn't practical for a lot of people, even rich people. If you were, say, a young man, just starting out in life, and you hadn't inherited your father's wealth but also weren't set up to live on your own? Having a place you were guaranteed to be able to stay was a fucking godsend. And as time went on, even people who lived in London most of the time started joining clubs, because they served another important purpose- they were a place you could go if you didn't particularly want to be at home, for whatever reason.

The way that historical gentlemen's clubs worked is, you got recommended to the club by a friend who was a member, you paid dues to the club, and in exchange, you'd get to use the club's facilities. * Most gentlemen's clubs had, at minimum, a dining room (with waitstaff, natch), a library, a couple of nice places to sit and hang out, a game room, and a bar. Many of them also had rooms you could sleep in overnight, fitness equipment, or stuff related to the club members' interests. Most of them had a room or two where you could invite friends who weren't part of your club and spend time with them. In the era where phones were a thing, a lot of them had a phone. You could write letters there and get your mail sent there.

Here's the thing: in the period I know best, gentlemen's clubs weren't just for the turbo-rich. They were the province of rich guys, yes- you had to be a 'gentleman' and know the right people to get in. But men who were doctor/lawyer/software-developer rich were most likely members of a gentlemen's club. Anyone who was rich enough to travel regularly was part of at least one club, because having somewhere to crash when you were going between (say) London and Delhi and back again was worth the cost.

Most gentlemen's clubs were owned by their members- not an outside corporate body. The club leaders were elected, usually by a small committee.

And a lot of gentlemen's clubs founded around specific interests, as time went on. There were gentlemen's clubs specifically for Guys Who Were Really Into Radio. There were clubs specifically for men who spent a lot of time traveling. There were clubs specifically for dudes who wanted to talk your ear off and clubs for old dudes who mostly wanted to nod off in their chairs and talk about The War and clubs for dudes who did not want to be percieved at all.

There were clubs for men who were really into science, or the arts, or sports. And one perk of being in a club like this is that you had access to equipment that you might not have been able to buy on your own. You didn't have to shell out for an entire library of scientific and medical books; you could go to your club and read in the library there. If your club had, say, an art studio, you could go paint at your club and not have to keep a studio space of your own.

There were gentlemen's clubs specifically oriented around specific political or social views. There were socialist clubs. (And a lot of them admitted women, which was !!!SCANDALOUS!!!) Like, they were still the province of goddamn rich people, there were a lot of trust fund baby socialists and not many working people, but there were socialist social clubs.

...I don't want to pretend that gentlemen's clubs were some kind of idyllic haven. 99% of these clubs were For Men, and For The Right Sort Of Men at that; if you didn't have a friend who was a member, or you weren't "respectable" enough, you didn't get to join. There's a reason that most of these clubs are gone now. Part of the point was excluding the Wrong Sort of People, and that became gauche over time. After a certain point, being part of a club became a thing for stodgy, out-of-touch rich men- not just "men who happened to have enough money to be part of a club"- and so most of the men who could join one didn't, and people stopped forming new ones. Only Old Money assholes (who will continue to do what they've always done, current trends be damned) keep the concept alive.

But like... the thing that replaced gentlemen's clubs for 99% of the people who would have had one a hundred years ago... is the premium airport lounge, and the premium gym membership, and the ~coworking hub~.** Anyone can join, yeah, as long as they're able to pay. You pay a corporation a chunk of money for similar amenities, and the amenities are ... fine? But because the entity is driven by profit, most of the money you're paying them goes into running their other business concerns and paying their CEOs a fat paycheck.

I think... as exclusionary as gentlemen's clubs were back in the day, there's the seed of a good idea there. I think the guys who wish they were still an attainable thing for a middle-class person have a point, and I wish we could inject some fucking nuance into this conversation.

A community-owned space that gives you a place to crash when you need one, has community-owned resources for its members, and isn't beholden to a corporation is a good thing. Third spaces that don't have to turn a profit are a damn good thing.

At the end of the day, my politics are 'everyone should get to have the kind of luxuries that were historically reserved for the rich'. Everyone should get to have the best life has to offer- leisure, beauty, good craftsmanship, and community. And so, you know, if this kind of community space sounds like a thing you'd like to have, maybe it's something you could work towards creating, too.

*TBF, this is still how they work today! But the networks are much smaller.

**I do find it very funny that apparently one of the biggest problems facing the few remaining Actual Gentlemen's Clubs (TM) is that people are trying to use their space to telework-- a lot of them are trying to ban laptops and business talk to "keep the club's character" (read: "we're too rich to have to work here").