#there are probably some grammar errors here I'll edit it later

[wonder-worker]

Hey, sorry if you've already a similar question, but I wanted to know if the relationship of Edward III and Alice Perrers was known during the lifetime of Philippa of Hainault? I've read different things across sites and now don't know what to think

Yes, I've answered a similar question on the topic, it should be in my "Alice Perrers" tag. But my opinion about this has changed a bit over the past few months, and I haven't really spoken about that yet, so I'll do it here.

My opinion of Alice's visibility as royal mistress before 1369 is similar to James Bothwell’s conclusion on Edward III’s patronage to Alice during that time. I think it was well-known enough "to excite notice but not public criticism”.

Alice before & after 1369:

I think historians tend to follow a too-rigid binary when they discuss Alice's position as Edward's mistress. They generally divide her tenure into two phases: before and after Philippa's death. To an extent, this is understandable - 1369 was a watershed year not just for Alice but for England in general, as their queen of 40+ years died. Certainly, the physical absence of the queen meant that Alice could promote herself as the "female presence at Edward III's side, both in public and in private" (Tompkins). She would not have been able to do this - at least, not to the extent that she did - if Philippa had been alive.

But by overemphasizing 1369 as a critical year for Alice, historians and commentators generally downplay how her relationship and influence with Edward III seems to have evolved and strengthened across the 1360s itself, before Philippa died. I think this is pretty clear if we look at the surviving royal records.

We lack Edward III’s chamber records, which would probably have given us a clear idea of when the relationship started. As Tompkins said, this was almost definitely a way in which Edward was rewarding or looking after Alice in the beginning; it would have presumably included gifts and perhaps money. The chamber, however, is generally associated with the private expenditure of the monarch. It wasn't completely private - the monarchy was an inherently public institution - but regardless, it had the ability of being personal and discreet in a way that other records could not.

It's true that Alice had an official position as a damsel at court during this time, so even in the most discreet scenario, a relationship between her and king couldn't have been completely hidden. Certainly, Edward was willing to associate with her in a public and formal way: in 1364, he made an "exceptional" order to Richard Lyons "not to interfere with her [Alice's] going where she wished on the king's business or her own". I believe this should be seen as a form of reverse intercession: Alice was not interceding to the king on behalf of others, but instead interceding with others on behalf of the king. I find it likely that at least some people in the court and city must have wondered why Edward III was suddenly so invested in the wellbeing and actions of one young, random commoner, in a way that he clearly doesn't seem to have been for anyone else. Still, it was just one order, and Edward's patronage to Alice remained private and limited to the chamber.

It was in 1366 that things started to change, with Alice beginning to appear in central government records. The nature of these grants also evolved over the years.

The first official grant Edward gave her was relatively conventional: a life grant of two tuns of Gaston wine for service to Queen Philippa. This was, generally speaking, a common and acceptable form of appreciation from royalty to their household members and servants.

However, it didn't stop there. Edward's rewards to Alice from 1377 began to include land grants. This was extremely unusual; during Edward's reign, only one other damsel, Stephanetta de Olneye, had received land grants from him, and even then, it was just one time.

Edward's patronage to Alice far surpassed that. His first gift of land to her was a wardship in May 1367, which included all the lands and marriage rights of the heir of Tobert of Tilliol. In theory, this was "a minor northern gentry power block" (Bothwell). Later that year, Alice was also granted "the lawn of Morton with the covert of Mortonscogh in the forest of Inglewode". Strikingly, this was granted to her for life rather than in wardship.

Even more extraordinarily, Edward went a step further in 1368 by granting Alice two-thirds of the manor of Monylaws, in Northumberland, in fee with the reversion of the third part. This marked his first permanent land alienation for her.

Obviously, we shouldn't necessarily exaggerate the list of grants here. Alice was conducting independent land transactions in the 1360s, and what Edward gave her was simply one part of that. Moreover, there were external factors that lessened the practical usage of these lands - the wardship cost Edward little in terms of permanent capital loss, and profits from the other territories were somewhat diminished due to their remote location. They were undoubtedly more limited compared to the ones Alice got from 1369-77.

However, they were still important, contributing significantly to Alice's profits. They were also very much out of the ordinary for Edward III's reign. It was simply unprecedented for someone of Alice's rank receive what she did - it doesn't seem to have ever happened before in the 14th century. I think it was also more than any other king's mistress in medieval England formally received during his queen's lifetime.

In short - even in the 1360s, Alice's position was already unusual. Edward was already going beyond precedent for her.

More importantly, the records of 1360s show a very clear evolution in Edward III and Alice's relationship. We know that the nature of his patronage went from private and discreet (via his chamber) to public and official (via patent rolls and grants). The nature of the grants themselves changed significantly: they went from conventional and standard (wine) to increasingly unusual (land alienation). If this was simply a short-term relationship - if it lasted for, say, 3 years, only for the grants to abruptly stop - it would be one thing. But we are looking at a long-term, ongoing affair across the 1360s, where the level of rewards became more public and exceptional in scope as the years went by.

I think it's reasonable to assume that these grants mirrored the intensifying closeness of Alice and Edward's relationship as well as the rise of Alice's influence with him. Either she was increasingly comfortable making requests/demands, or he was increasingly besotted/indulgent in giving them to her, or both (In my opinion, it was probably both).

So I find it impossible to support the "Before Philippa / After Philippa" binary historians keep trying to shove down our throats. Yes, her death in 1369 did mark a watershed in Alice's career and propel her to unprecedented heights. But changes in Edward and Alice's relationship (and in his patronage to her) were clearly happening during Philippa's own life.

This is also why I'm very unconvinced by the narrative that "their relationship was very discreet during Philippa's life and only became public after her death". Edward III's own actions clearly contradict this idea: if he wanted to keep their affair private, he could have simply continued rewarding Alice through his private chamber expenditure and continued using his influence to help her indirectly, as he did in the John Cobham case (among others). His 1364 order aside, those actions can be reasonably categorized as discreet.

But Edward obviously did not stop at private, indirect association with Alice. Officially, their relationship went from private to public, from conventional to exceptional. Their relationship was becoming more open and public across the 1360s. That's not a matter of opinion or interpretation; it's a matter of formal record.

Personally, I don't believe that we "need" explicit evidence to prove that Edward and Alice's affair was widely known by the 1360s. Instead, I believe that their affair should automatically be assumed to be widely known unless and until we specifically find evidence that proves otherwise. Edward's increasingly public actions towards Alice cannot be attributed to someone who was genuinely invested in keeping the affair primarily hidden or under wraps. After all, the formal title of "king's mistress" never existed in medieval England or France - the grants Edward bestowed to Alice were in fact exactly how royal mistresses of the 14th and 15th century, including Agnes Sorel, were "officially" acknowledged by their lovers. The grants in themselves were regarded as public marks of favor. For example, John of Gaunt gave Katherine Swynford many such grants (probably following his father's example) in the 1370s, and their affair certainly does seem to have been widely known. Likewise, historians regularly use royal grants to lords/courtiers/factions to prove that they were publicly favored by the king, regardless of whether or not said favor was mentioned in chronicles. There's also no question of the king's favor being "discreet" in those cases, because the grants were official and public by nature. I don't know why people are so reluctant to believe the same with Alice (apart from misogynistic double standards, that is), whose status as a widowed commoner would have only made these grants more notable and shocking. Unless you believe that Edward's court was comprised entirely of dunderheads, these grants would have inevitably made it obvious that the king was favoring Alice and was doing so in an official manner. There is really no reason to believe otherwise.

The Philippa/Alice binary:

I admire Laura Tompkins and her thesis on Alice a lot, but I disagree with this incredibly presumptive statement of hers:

"Before Philippa died Alice was no more scandalous than any other late medieval mistress who, if the queen had lived, would have no doubt enjoyed a limited period of patronage and status before slipping back into obscurity."

I have plenty of doubts, actually. Also, I think that the English king whom this quote actually applies to is Edward IV, not Edward III, but that's another matter*.

Firstly, this scenario is wildly assumptive on Tompkins' part. I might be biased here - I hate when historians act as though their imagination qualifies as a valid historical source. I hate when historians create historical "what ifs" and then use their personal predictions to analyze historical figures. I hate when historians ignore actual evidence in favor of their own wish-fulfilling theories. It's ridiculous and unprofessional behavior that leads to incredibly flawed historical analyses. Tomkins generally doesn't do this (I think she's a fantastic historian and I liked her thesis a lot), which is why this statement of hers annoyed me so much.

I also think it's ... interesting how Alice's relationship with Edward III is often regarded with a level of skepticism and dismissiveness in a way that no other relationship of that time ever is. Would we apply the same quote to Katherine Swynford if Constance of Castile had lived past 1394? Would we say that Hugh le Despenser's influence would "no doubt" subside and that he would "slip back into obscurity" if Isabella of France had stayed or returned to England? Would we say that Edward III and Philippa of Hainault's relationship would have "no doubt" worsened in the 1370s had Philippa continued to live? All of these are pure speculations - we do not know if any of these can be true, and they seem rather insulting to the historical relationships in question. So why are historians and commentators so willing to make such presumptions for Alice? I think it's extremely illogical and unfair.

Most importantly, there is no historical basis for Tompkins to be making such a claim in the first place. The idea that Alice would "slip back into obscurity" if Philippa had lived is directly contradicted by the evidence I mentioned above. Alice's position before 1369 was not stagnant, only to suddenly transform upon Philippa's death - instead, her influence was already rising during Philippa's life. It was already becoming more official and more unusual. Philippa's death clearly resulted in a significant boost of Edward's patronage to Alice, but it did not change the nature of said patronage, as it was already public and already exceptional. So I don't understand how Tompkins can claim that Alice would have "no doubt" become irrelevant if Philippa lived when records and historical evidence clearly point in the opposite direction. We should also remember that Edward did not have to remain with Alice and after Philippa died. He could have remained celibate, or remarried, or begun an affair with someone else. Nor did he have to give Alice the degree of prominence, influence and patronage that he did (ie: that of an "uncrowned queen"). He was very clearly committed to their relationship and had become so during Philippa's life, so I fail to understand why that would have changed if Philippa lived past 1369. If we have to speculate what would have happened in that alternate scenario, records from the `1360s and evidence from the 1370s both logically suggest that Edward's official favor to Alice would have continued to increase and intensity. That's not really up for debate - what is up for debate is simply the extent of Alice's rise**. We don't know what exactly could have happened - but the one option that must be disregarded based on evidence is the idea that Alice would have "slipped back into obscurity". Everything we know suggests the opposite.

There's also Walsingham's account to consider:

"Blind fortune elevated this woman [Alice] to such heights and promoted her to a greater intimacy with the king than was proper...And while the queen was still alive, the king loved this woman more than he loved the queen.”

I've said before that this statement should be taken with a grain of salt and is not necessarily reliable. However, on the flip side, that does not mean it should be considered unreliable and automatically disregarded. Walsingham may have written this after Philippa's death, but it was nonetheless during Edward III's life, and he was a contemporary witness to the events of the 1360s. Moreover, whatever you think of Walsingham, most other contemporary sources echoed his view of Alice. Walsingham was not unique in his hostility to her, nor was he unique in his belief that Edward was very attached to her, nor was he unique in his assertion that Alice enjoyed unparalleled influence with the king. It's also worth pointing out that Walsingham did not actually need to claim that Edward apparently loved Alice more than Philippa during the 1360s. Even if he was trying to heighten outrage, there were other ways he could have gone about it - he could have simply claimed that Alice tried to seduce Edward during Philippa's life, or took advantage of him after Philippa's death, or contrasted his "virtuous"/marital love for Philippa and "improper"/adulterous love for Alice. For him to point-blank state that Edward loved Alice more than Phillippa is noteworthy, whether you believe his comment is reliable or not.

It's also ... odd that the possibility of Edward truly loving Alice more seems to make a lot of academic historians and commentators very uncomfortable. Of course, I believe we do not and cannot know what Edward felt - if I was writing a novel about the 1360s, I would approach this by emphasizing that he loved them both in similar/different ways, without creating any sort of romance hierarchy. But at the end of the day, Edward loving Alice more is a genuine possibility, and it's odd how most people can't even accept the existence of that possibility. Either it's viewed as outrageous, or it's dismissed as impossible. It's equally ridiculous how Edward's affection for Philippa is often used as "proof" that he couldn't have cared for Alice as much during Philippa's life, even though neither cancels out the other. Even historians who are sympathetic to Alice, like Laura Tompkins and Gemma Hollman, are keener to prioritize Edward's relationship with Philippa over his one with Alice and seem reluctant to put too much emphasis on their affair in the 1360s. Instead, they are truly willing to emphasize Alice's influence and importance to Edward only after Philippa is dead - even though both were already well-established during Philippa's life and had already become unusual by the time she died.

In any case, my main point is that I find it absurd how Tompkins has disregarded Walsingham's quote, yet claimed that the exact opposite would "no doubt" be true, with no justification to back up her claim. I don't think that's a fair or logical conclusion in any capacity - quite the opposite.

Also, I want to be clear that my frustration with this is not based on shipping. I generally don't get the point of shipping historical figures, certainly not royals, and certainly not Alice and Edward III (If I had to actively ship him with anyone from a fandom-esque perspective, it would be with Philippa). What frustrates me here is the fact that there is clearly still a great deal of historical discomfort when it comes to Alice's relationship to Edward, especially in the 1360s. It may be because of their adultery. It may be because of the misassumptions I mentioned above. It may be because Edward III, Philippa, and their marriage have all been very idealized across English history, and Alice represents a crack in that narrative. I don't really know.

But the end result is the same: it upholds the age-old binary between Philippa and Alice, where Alice is repeatedly degraded for Philippa's sake. Either she is framed as the bad woman and grasping mistress to Philippa's beloved and benevolent queen ... or she is romantically diminished in comparison to Philippa to render her more palatable and less threatening. If this is the only way “defend” or "reassess" Alice, I don’t want it.

Visibility VS Controversy:

Most historians and commentators tend to conflate the two or assume that one automatically leads to the other, even though they are very different things and must be analyzed differently.

Namely, most believe that because Alice was probably uncontroversial before Philippa died, it must automatically mean that she was obscure and unknown during that time as well***. But Alice could have been widely known as the king's mistress in the 1360s while also remaining unproblematic. It doesn't matter if she was a topic of intrigue or a figure of scandal - it just matters if her romantic connection to Edward was known to the court and the public (imho, it has to have been, given his public grants to her).

For example, Tompkins clearly believes that Edward's relationship with Alice was well-known during Philippa's life:

"The affair became more widely known about at court, as it must have been by the mid 1360s."

This...sort of answers the question, doesn't it? The issue is that Tompkins tends to use the words "widely discussed" and "point of intrigue" simultaneously when talking about Alice's affair with Edward, even though they mean completely different things. It could have been widely known without being a point of intrigue, it could have been a point of intrigue within court but not outside, etc.

This is another example: “If [Alice's] relationship with Edward III was known outside court it was the stuff of harmless gossip rather than a dangerous scandal”. The problem is that Tompkins was not discussing if the relationship was scandalous. She was merely discussing if it was known outside court, and if it was the "stuff of harmless gossip", that means that it would have been known.

Very simply, I think we should avoid conflating visibility and controversy when discussing Alice and Edward's relationship in the 1360s, and should instead look at them as two separate topics of discussion. I think we should also avoid judging Alice's position in the 1360s purely in comparison to her future position in the 1370s, which is entirely dependent on hindsight. It also ends up downplaying that Edward's actions wrt Alice were exceptional in the 1360s itself and would have remained so regardless of what happened in the following decade.

*Tompkins has said “from Edward I through to Henry VII it is only Edward IV and Edward III himself who had a known mistress”. This is incorrect – while contemporaries did state that Edward IV had extramarital affairs, no extant contemporary source or government record links him with any specific woman during his marriage the way Edward III was linked with Alice. (Contemporaries also emphasized that he was known to only have specifically short-term affairs, while no one can characterize Edward III's relationship with Alice in such a way). We do not explicitly know the names of any mistresses during his marriage as of yet. We also do not know if Edward IV truly had an affair with Elizabeth “Jane” Shore, as there is no contemporary proof of said affair's existence. But regardless, even if it did occur, it cannot be compared to Edward III's relationship with Alice. Shore was never honored with formal/official grants during Elizabeth Woodville's queenship the way Alice was during Philippa of Hainault's (and the way French and Breton mistresses were in the 15th century). Unlike Alice, who was known to have conducted "king's business" in the 1360s, there is no evidence of Shore having the influence or ability to do anything of the sort - she is absent from all known cases of intercession during Edward IV's reign, and there are cases where contemporaries sought help from multiple people known to be influential at court while making no mention of Shore. Finally, even if Edward IV and Elizabeth Shore did have an affair, it's extremely doubtful that it was long-term the way Thomas More (a post-contemporary source who was the first and only one to link them together) claimed it was. Mancini, interacting with courtiers or Londoners in 1483, specifically emphasized that Edward was known to have short-term affairs during his life (an odd thing to say if he had been in a years-long relationship with Shore) and More straight-up contradicted his own account of Shore by stating that Edward IV stopped having affairs in his last years ("his fleshly wantonness ... in his latter days, it lessened and well left"). So based on what we currently know, I don't think Edward III and Edward IV can be compared much in this aspect.

In any case, we know that Henry IV had an affair and illegitimate son by an unknown woman around 1401. There's also Henry V's alleged "wild youth", although that was before he became king. Of course, neither were married at the time, so they weren't having extramarital affairs, but they (at least Henry IV) certainly weren't remaining chaste, either. And while neither John of Gaunt nor Humphrey of Gloucester were kings, both were princes of England known for their controversial extramarital affairs and for marrying their mistresses. So while I somewhat agree with Tompkins's statement that "royal mistresses were not a common feature of political life in England during the later middle ages", I don't think it's anywhere near as straightforward as that, because sexual scandal was still memorably prevalent in the reigns of several other English kings (including Edward II and Richard II). **Obviously, I think it's improbable that Alice would have or could have presented herself as an uncrowned queen or been regarded as Edward's "wife" had Philippa lived. But I think quasi-queenship and increased localized influence (which she was already exercising in the 1360s), along with rising notoriety, are all likely. ***There was a distinct lack of contemporary narrative sources in the 1360s, so Alice's absence from the sparse chronicles during that time doesn't really say much. According to Tompkins, the fullest account of the decade was "the well-informed Westminster monk John of Reading [who] makes no mention of Alice or the king’s infidelity before the end of his chronicle". However, as the chronicle ends in 1367, exactly the year Edward began to bestow official grants to Alice, it is obviously not a valid or reliable source when it comes to their affair specifically. It's possible Alice would have featured in contemporary sources if more of them existed. But even if she didn't, the truth is that her absence can't be relied upon as any sort of evidence. It's possible that Alice's position as mistress was viewed as more "acceptable" and easier to overlook when Philippa was alive. Considering the explosion of hostility towards her immediately after 1369, sources could have been actively holding back from criticizing her to keep up appearances, only to unleash their anger after Philippa's death as Alice's prominence continued to rise. It's also possible they were deliberately avoiding any mention of Alice out of hostility to her and respect for Philippa - after all, even at the peak of Alice's power in the 1370s, the Good Parliament sought to remove her from court and symbolically re-associate Edward with the memory of Philippa. Again, Edward's grants to Alice across the late 1360s is the key thing to remember - if he had restrained himself to private chamber rewards, Alice's absence from narrative sources would be a reasonable indication of discreetness, perhaps even obscurity. But as Edward did not restrain himself, and his grants to Alice were public and official by nature, the situation was obviously a lot more complicated and requires alternate explanations.

[a-most-beloved-fool]

(now also on AO3)

Spock knew he was dying. It was, he supposed, quite inevitable. In truth, he was surprised that death had not claimed him much sooner; there had been many instances throughout his life and career when it had seemed inescapable.

Now, however, it would be time that would claim him.

All told, it was a significant improvement upon his last death, trapped within the Enterprise's warp core. Though his bones ached with age, his flesh did not burn with radiation, and his vision remained quite clear. He hurt, yes, and was cold, but he was not in agony.

However...

The last time he had died, pressed up against the glass, he had not had to face it alone. Jim had been with him, as had Doctor McCoy and Mr. Scott. He had been unable to touch them - and indeed he had wanted to, had wished quite illogically for the glass to fall away and allow him to tumble into Jim's arms - but they had still been there, at his side.

He was a Vulcan, and so perhaps it should have been inconsequential, but he was old now, and sentimental.

He could not help but want.

And then, as though a breath had passed through the room, Spock sensed a change.

Suddenly, without any fanfare at all, Jim stood at his side, smiling warmly down at him. He looked just as young as he did when Spock had seen him last, before he had been swept away by the Nexus and held away from him for so many long decades. He was, thought Spock, so beautiful.

If this was an illusion, it was a welcome one.

When Jim's hands clasped his own, they felt real, somehow, soft and warm against his chilled flesh, and Spock gripped back with all the strength he could muster. Illusion though it may be, Spock would savor it.

Jim, he wanted to say, how I have missed you, but his voice was well beyond him. To even try would be an exercise in futility. Kaiidth. Perhaps it was for the best. It would not do to frighten his doctors by speaking to a hallucination.

Still, he allowed himself to look, drinking in Jim's appearance like a man parched. It had been so very long since they had been together, and Spock could find no shame in taking advantage of his situation. He was dying, and if an illusion was the only way he could have the company of his husband, he would accept it without question. It felt like Jim, and it looked like Jim, and that was enough for him.

To his other side, a light began to bloom. Sunrise. He had not expected to make it to this sunrise. Memories, long cherished, of watching alien sunrises with Jim bubbled up in his mind, and a sigh fell from his lips.

Oh, how he had missed him! And now, at his very last sunrise, Jim was back with him, hands holding his.

Yes, this was by far an improvement on his previous death.

With some effort, he turned his head towards the sun. Jim, too, turned to face it, and together they watched, as they had so very many times before. It was peaceful. Wonderful.

He did not know how long he lay there, gazing at the rising sun, Jim's hand still in his, before the change became apparent to him: breath no longer stirred in his chest, and his heart no longer beat in his side. Gone, too, was the ache of time that had so suffused him these last years.

And yet, the sun still shone before him, and Jim's hands were still warm against his own.

He blinked, wondering.

"Jim," he whispered, and the name fell with shocking ease from his lips. Cautiously, he pulled himself to a sitting position, and his form moved more smoothly than it had in many years as he turned to meet Jim's eyes once more. "Jim."

"Hello, Mister," Jim replied.

Jim beamed at him, that beloved face warm with affection. The barest hint of sadness lingered at the edges of his eyes, and Spock's hand raised almost of its own accord, brushing lightly over his cheek.

"You grieve," he murmured. "Why?"

Jim just smiled, leaning into Spock's touch. "Illogical, I know," he said, a light puff of laughter escaping his chest. "I only - well. It isn't pleasant to watch you die, peaceful though it was. And, while I'm terribly pleased to see you again, I can't help but feel sorry. Death is - quite permanent, most of the time. I'm afraid no strange Vulcan rituals will be bringing you back, this time around."

Spock understood. Gently, he threaded his fingers into Jim's hair. "I confess that I am relieved by that," he admitted, cherishing the feeling of Jim beneath his touch. "I would not wish to be taken from you once again, so soon after arriving."

Something honey-warm softened in Jim at that, his eyes alight with a deep fondness.

"You sweet talker, you," he said, squeezing gently at the hand still within his grasp. Then, something almost tentative crept into his face. "Spock," he started, eyeing him cautiously, "I know it's been... quite some time, for you. But - to say it bluntly, I still love you. If you've moved on, I'll never mention it again, but-"

Illogical, Spock thought, silencing Jim's words quite suddenly with his lips. Jim melted against him easily, and for a long moment they did nothing but kiss, breathing into one another as they traded touches. When Spock finally pulled away, Jim looked almost kiss-drunk, lips swollen and eyes besotted.

"I suppose that's my answer, then," Jim chuckled, squeezing Spock's hands again.

"Indeed," Spock replied, allowing his eyes to crinkle with some of the delight which pumped through his veins. Gently, he rubbed his nose against Jim's, then pulled back again.

"I'm glad." Jim looked at Spock for a moment, and then glanced down at the bed he still sat upon. "I'll admit, I expected you to have more questions."

"I have surmised that I am dead, and that you are here," Spock said. "Anything further seemed unimportant, for time time being."

Another huff of laughter escaped Jim. "Imminently logical, Mister Spock," he teased. Spock merely inclined his head in response.

Jim stood, and pulled Spock with him, rising from the bed. Disconcertingly, he could see his own body laid out beneath him, eyes closed in death, but then Jim leaned in to press a brief kiss to his cheek, and it was forgotten.

"Well, suffice to say, it seems there's some kind of afterlife. It might be a part of the Nexus, believe it or not." Gently, he tugged Spock along as he started walking, linking their arms together "I'm not the only one who's been waiting for you, I'll have you know," he said, an almost impish smile playing at his lips. "You'll have quite the greeting party, I'm sure. I think Bones has been saving up gripes just for you."

A smile found its way to Spock's face, and he did not try to stop it. He had Jim in his arms once again, and soon he would see their friends. But, before they could continue, Spock pulled lightly at Jim's arm, stopping him.

"Jim?" he said. "I am glad you were with me."

For a moment, Jim looked at him, clearly surprised. Then, an expression which shone like the sun spread across his face. He stepped forwards, enclosing Spock in a hug. Spock went willingly, tucking his face into the crook of Jim's neck.

"I am, too."

[cripplecharacters]

oh yeah another question abt intellectual disability: what do people with moderate id speak like? i assume they wouldnt be perfectly articulate but i know making them talk like cavemen would be bad too. i do want it to be clear that they have language difficulties, but im not sure how to do that realistically. so what kinds of grammar errors are actually common? would it make sense to have them mix up words with similar pronunciation, or have difficulty discerning the differences in implications between words with similar meanings (like "pretty" vs "attractive")? do people with id ever 'imagine context' the way people(well, me) do when half-asleep where the brain mishears a statement as something completely unrelated? would spatial and situational awareness be impaired? also this is kind of a different question but if you can give advice on what to do with game mechanics for an id character in an rpg, that would be nice! i already have the stats figured out for every character and theres no stat that i think would be strongly affected by id but in terms of depicted fighting style and other mechanics maybe thered be some stuff informed by it (i cant do anything too complex though, im using rpg maker vx ace). idk! im spitballing here. main thing i need to know is how to write dialogue for a character with id ^_^

Hey, we have a post somewhat about this that you might find useful, I'll try to go over the other questions below.

Keep in mind my ID is mild (and on the milder side of that) so my answer will be all second-hand knowledge from talking to people with moderate ID in my SPED years.

A lot of it will depend on what condition causes they have. People with Williams syndrome have very “normal” verbal skills majority of the time, and you can't really tell in my experience. On the other hand if they're autistic you can potentially guess from the tone of the voice e.g. they speak in a very loud and monotone way. People with Down syndrome are very likely to have a speech disorder, someone with cerebral palsy might slur their words, etc.

A lot of people with ID might be less talkative than your average person (there's definitely exceptions). So your character could use shorter sentences, simple sentences (in the grammar sense), prefer to use other forms of communication for things that don't require speech (e.g., nodding instead of saying “Yes, I agree”, or doing a thumbs up, etc.), or have to be prompted to actually answer/take part in the conversation.

I personally don't recall ever hearing the “mixing words with similar pronunciation” in someone's actual speech, maybe unless they learned the language from reading rather than hearing it. If that's the case, then ID could affect their speech more than if they didn't have it, otherwise I'd assume that the character might have brain damage or is maybe hard of hearing and simply mixes them up because they can't recognize/hear the difference between them.

Mixing words based on specific meaning makes much more sense in my opinion (probably because I do that myself). Synonyms or words that might make sense in one context but not the other are the worst. Your example here is great. When someone has ID they might take away the wrong meaning out of a word and use it incorrectly because of that. E.g., their parents used to take them camping to a forest with lots of bugs, they don't like bugs, they can later call something “foresty” to mean “with lots of bugs” even if it doesn't have much to do with an actual forest. This might make more sense for a character with more severe ID (or if they're just young) but using “attractive” when you'd normally say “pretty” makes sense for someone with moderate ID in my opinion.

Something that can also affect speech of someone with ID is word repetition. Not really in the echolalia sense (though it can be that too) but just using stock phrases that get repetitive over time. I try to edit it out from my posts, but you can still kinda see it. For some people it will be ending most sentences with the same word, for someone else it will be starting two paragraphs with the same three words without realizing even though they're right next to each other or overusing “maybe” and “if” to start sentences.

As for the “imagining context” while mishearing something, I'm not sure if I know what you mean by it, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't do it.

Situational awareness is definitely impacted for all people with ID but to different degrees. I don't know if it's part of the diagnostic criteria, but it might as well be. When the person's ID is mild it might look like someone who's just kinda unaware of what goes around them, maybe don't recognize that they're doing something that could end up badly. The more severe the intellectual disability the more obvious it is, the person might elope (wander off) and not be able to find their way back, not be able to use cooking utensils safely because they don't recognize the risks in real time (not really in the “not realizing that the knife is sharp” way if they have moderate ID, more like “not realizing that you need to be careful when putting things on hot oil, or you can get burned”), assuming that people are automatically safe to be around, things like that.

Spatial awareness doesn't affect everyone, but one of the biggest comorbidities of ID is dyspraxia, which does affect it a lot. There are people with mild ID with severe dyspraxia, and severely ID people with no dyspraxia. It varies.

Unfortunately I have never played any RPGS, and I'm not really familiar with the mechanics. Here's an old ask about intellectually disabled characters engaged in combat, hopefully it's useful?

If you want some real-life resources for hearing how intellectually disabled people talk, I really recommend this playlist. It's a bunch of interviews with people with Down syndrome and you can see that they're all very different from each other despite having the same disability.

I hope this helps,

mod Sasza

[zephfair]

More Fic Writer asks! #1, 3, 11, 12, 17 annnddd 30 for a story of your choice ^_^ Enjoy!

Thank you so much the ask! I appreciate you!!!

the last sentence you wrote

This is from my Raven Cycle Hallmark Christmas movie fic that will probably never be posted but like I said in a previous ask, it's my holiday emotional support fic.🤣

“Dick,” a low, gravelly voice growled down at him. Gansey hid his wince from the cold voice as well as the chill of lukewarm coffee soaking through his cashmere, and most probably, the black shirt of the brick wall/man he ran into.

“There’s no need to resort to name-calling. I was about to apologize for spilling on you,” Gansey said, pulling himself straighter but it only brought the man’s stubbly Adam’s apple and chin into focus.

“Fuck, no, that’s not...” then a softer voice—a tone that brought back memories of green fields, the smell of hay and cattle, the tug of a boyish hand in his, days filled with laughter—warmed him in an instant when it said, “Gansey? Is that really you?”

3. how you feel about your current WIP

Oops, this is the one I answered here about that holiday fic that I am trying to work every single Hallmark Christmas movie trope into.🤣

11. a WIP you’d like to finish someday

I have one more Bleach fic that's been halfway done for years. I'd like to finish it just for completion's sake. And I have a bunch of Raven Cycle fics that I still open, read, and then close because the magic fic fairy has not visited me and finished them. Unfortunately. 🥲The two that haunt me are the Mr. and Mrs. Smith AU and the Sugar Daddy AU. I want them to just be exported directly from my brain onto the page without me having to actually type, you know?

12. a trope you’re really into right now

My bedtime ritual includes curling up in bed with my iPad and rereading some of my favorite Ronan/Adam fics. I am always in the mood for a good AU that's either romantic comedy or just romantic with always a happy ending. No dark themes or angst for me please.

17. talk about your writing and editing process

I wish I had more of a writing process tbh. I don't have any energy these days. I plan fics and get all this great dialog and plot while I'm driving on Saturdays, but when I get home, I'm too wiped out to even write a word. Sometimes I scribble down an idea or a phrase that will hopefully jog my memory about the witty conversation I'd imagined. (Spoiler: my memory doesn't like to jog anymore than the rest of me so much of my imaginings are lost.😂)

But when I'm actually writing for real, I try to just keep the flow going. If I get bogged down in a scene or want to add something that I'll need to check on, I just put a placeholder. I don't want to interrupt myself when I'm in the zone, so to speak, and I can always come back and look up or fix that section later.

When I first get a fic idea, I do try to write down the outline as it comes to me and those snippets of conversation that I can hear clearly.

I'm guilty of only performing minimal editing. I know my stuff could definitely benefit from a beta reader, but it's been years since I've had one. I'm always on the lookout for basic spelling, grammar and punctuation errors but gah, they still sneak past me. I know I tend to be verbose so I do try to cut when I can. I keep a file with some of the things I cut, if I really like a passage or a phrase, maybe I can use it again someday where it will fit better.

But in the end, writing fanfic is mostly for me. I adore and crave the validation, for sure, and I'm sure with a beta and much care, I could create a better story. But right now, I don't edit as strictly as I should because I might really love that paragraph, and I'm going to leave it there anyway. For me.

30. share a fic you’re especially proud of

I answered this before and said my Bleach tentacle smut fic lol, but I'm actually proudest of my earliest Da Vinci's Demons stuff. Nobody outside the minuscule fandom has even seen the show, but I was in a strangely good writing mode those couple years, and I think I wrote my best "writing," with pretty turns of phrase and actual plotting and pacing. And smut, always smut.

Thank you so much for the ask, lovely! 😘💖💖💖💖💖

[on-sinkingships]

Fic Writer Interview

Thank you for the tag @formulaocean I really appreciate it <3

How many works do you have on ao3?

6 works! 5 are F1 related and the other is SoC.

What’s your total word count?

61,690 words. Which...I did not know it was that many bc I feel like I don't write a ton lol!

What are your top 5 fics by kudos?

and you understand now why they lost their minds (and fought the wars) - 817

fate (in slow motion) - 334

stranger skin - 310

call it conditioning - 172

what i create is chaos - 140

Do you respond to comments? Why/ why not?

I do my best to! Sometimes it's pretty difficult though. On wips I try to respond to old comments before posting the next chapter but sometimes I forget.

What's the fic you've written with the angstiest ending?

So ignore the fact that I wrote a sequel but probably What I Create Is Chaos. I toyed with just leaving it there with the angst but decided against it. In my drafts, though, I have some really angsty fics, but I don't know if I will post them.

What's the fic you've written with the happiest ending?

and you understand now... but literally everything I write is a happy ending I feel. I love to read angst and whump but then when it comes to writing I feel like I need to have it all end up happy.

Do you write crossovers?

I haven't yet, but I have considered it! The hard thing is I don't know what I would do for a crossover. I have had ideas (legally blonde lestappen) but I haven't taken the time to write them yet.

Have you ever received hate on a fic?

I don't think I'd call it hate? But there are people who have commented and just pointed out grammar errors or misspellings which like I get...but also it just kind of ruined my day and demotivated me? I know I need to do a better job editing, but also if you see something just send me a dm!

Do you write smut? If so, what kind?

Not that I have posted. I honestly don't think I'm very good at writing it and if I ever do end up trying it out, it will probably go on anon.

Have you ever had a fic stolen?

No. I don't know why anyone would want to steal my fics lol.

Have you ever had a fic translated?

Nope!

Have you ever co-written a fic before?

Like YEARS ago. I started writing fics in middle-school and I collaborated a lot then.

What's your all-time favourite ship?

It is so hard to decide. Like, Lestappen was what got me to start writing fanfic again in college so they're definitely up there! But I was also a zutara girlie and would read anything that put Sansa Stark in a good light.

What's a WIP that you want to finish but don't think you ever will?

Here We Go Kentucky. It was a Loscar angst fic that I just can't find inspiration for. I really adored Loscar, but with Logan losing the seat mid-season, it's kind of hard to write this now because it followed until the end, and I can't get the timeline to work.

I had an F1 mythology AU too that I never got around to finishing! The general concept was kind of a character study looking at drivers that refuse gifts from the gods to earn their achievements on merit versus those who make deals to get ahead. There were some that started on merit and then cut deals later on and paid the price and those that became really disillusioned with it all...

There's also an Olympics AU lol. Charles is a diver, and Max is a cyclist, and they keep running into each other every 4 years. They hook up every time. Charles is obsessed with Max's thighs.

What are your writing strengths?

I don't know! All of my writing is self-indulgent, so I'm not sure what my strengths really are! I just like to write and get the ideas out. I'm sure when I have more time, I'll focus more on my technique but for now it's a fun hobby.

What are your writing weaknesses?

Time management, for sure. I should not do multichapter yet I keep doing multichapter. Also, there are grammar errors (see above, lol).

What are your thoughts on writing dialogue in other languages in a fic?

It depends on the fic and the context. I think pet names are cute and easy to do! But full conversations can be a bit cumbersome. I think it works best when certain phrases are interspersed throughout, so it's not a full conversation in a different language, but you can still derive the meaning.

What was the first fandom you wrote for?

It was Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. I was 12 and impressionable. To be fair though, there are fics from both of those that I still love to this day.

What's a fandom/ship you haven't written for yet but want to?

I've got some galex drafts going! I really love them as a ship, so I wanted to explore it a bit. They're kind of on the backburner though until Stranger Skin is finished :)

What's your favourite fic you've written?

I really liked fate (in slow motion), even if it isn't my best! There were some lines in it that I really enjoyed writing and it came together pretty quickly and felt cohesive. I like the vignette style too! I have to see if I can bring it back at some point.

tagging @mossistyping @13834 if you haven't already done it!