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enkephallic · 1 month ago

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Canto 2 Theory: Rodya's Sin, Sonya's Plan

After my re-read of Canto 2, I began to think that Rodya's sin might be more closely linked to Sonya than I thought. Also, Sonya may be worse than I initially thought. This will get long:

First, let's summarize Rodya's sins. Her original crime was killing the tax collector, ultimately resulting in the loss of many of her comrades' lives. It was a selfish act which cannot be excused by "I didn't know she was related to the Middle". I think her ongoing sin post-canto 2 is "continuing to cling to being special."

Rodya is not blameless, there's no doubt about that. But in canto 2, Rodya does face her sin - albeit partially - rather than running away from it. Although Sonya keenly points out her shortcomings, he himself is in an extremely morally gray position.

Sonya's attitude of disregard towards Ivan's death was what pushed Rodya into leaving the Yurodivy, and frankly she's well within reason to do so. Although he claims Rodya swung the axe because she wanted to be special, it's obvious that was hardly the only reason. Rodya's internal dialogue reveals that her anger and misery towards class inequality drove her to do this - it would make less sense for her primary drive to be "I want to be special". And even if it was, it's still hardly a remarkable sin in a City full of selfish actors.

More importantly, Rodya accuses Sonya of knowing what she was going to do. This feels extremely important - him knowingly letting Rodya go for the kill implicates him. And although Rodya likely doesn't think this way, I believe Sonya knew the middle would come and slaughter everyone. This is because Sonya is closely tied to Demian, who does the exact same thing with Sinclair.

Demian knew Sinclair's family would be brutally murdered because of what he did, but he didn't tell him that or bother stopping their deaths. He simply lets it happen, as if it's a pre-decided flow of events he won't bother stopping. If Sonya knew what would happen and still let Rodya carry out the kill, he's got just as much blood on his hands.

Rodya's journey in canto 2 ends preemptively. But is this genuinely all her fault? I don't really think so. She explicitly admits her sins and faces them, rejecting an easy way out that Sonya offered her. When shown a dream-like reality with no inequality, being told she can "start over as if nothing happened" - she refuses. She says she must stay in the cold for a little longer, not grow warm in an ideal world. This is her doing the exact opposite of "running away from her sins" - she's admitting how heavy her crime is, and choosing to stay on a painful path.

This can be interpreted as her being aware of her guilt and refusing half-hearted forgiveness, or conversely, as her choosing stagnation. However, I think it is unfair to say Rodya uniquely refused to face her sin. Although it is hard to say that she completely admitted her wrongdoing, the opportunities given to her were extremely limited, just like in Gregor's canto. The other Sinners were given large amounts of time, events and battles pushing them to slowly take a look at themselves. Rodya had Sonya breathing down her neck the whole third floor of the dungeon.

The final boss in Rodya's fathoms was a large Baba Yaga, which we never directly fight. All the Sinners look at each other and go "Oh fuck, we need to book it". From a surface level, Rodya continued fighting and facing the enemies until it became clear they couldn't anymore. If Baba Yaga was a fightable abnormality rather than a Canto 1-esque Crap Falling From the Sky, she would have likely held it out. This can be interpreted as Rodya's heart refusing to completely open up and face her sin, but it's hard to accuse Rodya of severely fucking up her dungeon compared to other Sinners. Ishmael, for instance, heads down a very tenuous path in Canto 5, and a lot of her actions add to her sins. However, she's given much more time and chances to truly look at herself and face her sin.

Sonya, despite clearly wanting the bough for his ideals, does not try to take it away once Rodya gives him her answer. He simply watches them take it, stating "They'll meet Demian soon, and next time they meet he won't be so nice". When told about this, Vergilius immediately raises the flag and tells us his actions don't match his supposed ideals - we should be wary of his intentions.

When Sonya talks to Hermann at the end, it's clear he anticipated failing to take in Rodya with his ideals. He focuses on Rodya's "pride" as to why she rejected it - "She won't be special in an equal world". Which sounds a little strange, but there is likely a reason why Sonya focuses on Rodya's sin of pride.

Judging from their actions, I think that Sonya and Demian's goal is to "make the right people commit crimes and resonate with the Golden Branch." Sonya desires the Golden Branch, but since their respective journeys have not yet ended, it is currently a lower priority.

Rodya's current sin is not her simply wanting to be special. But rather, it's her unhealthy attachment to being "special" - because if she wasn't special, she would have no excuses for her actions and decisions. Everything she did after abandoning Sonya could be rendered meaningless. And honestly, if Sonya planned it all from the start to get her to this point... I'm terrified.

Considering all of this, it is true that Rodya may seem like she didn't "face her sin". However, I cannot say that this is entirely her fault, and I think a big part of the reason is that, like Gregor, she was used as a pawn by other forces.

#limbus company #lcb rodya #limbus theory

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enkephallic · 2 months ago

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Oh, you hit a lot of points I forgot about lol. I think it's kind of sad and ironic that all my fanfiction I wrote pre-reading the book predicted far more aspects in the canto than any theories I made after my read. This kind of brings me to the whole "I think KJH just read a wikipedia summary" thing, because I watched the drama alongside the book and even a drama-only would not do the things they did in canto 8. I was waiting for the "truth becomes fiction when fiction becomes real" thing because it was so iconic and everything! I was really excited for it! but ... yeah.

I do think there was intentionality in how they created Baochai but honestly, it felt a little bit offputting anyhow. She could have easily been like "Baoyu, this is beneficial to both of us and our families. We need to marry. Now, snap out of your illusions." I don't really recall PJM characters doing over the top stereotyped femininity, and we don't see any of these gender roles being enforced in H Corp or otherwise... so it felt very abrupt.

I also think they did reference Jia Huan from the book because yeah, limbus Huan seems like an asshole abusive brother at first (god knows how much fanart I've seen where he's doing just that). I think the tea thing might be giving them too much credit - if they haven't included the likes of Wang Xifeng, the spanking scene, and all the other iconic scenes, I doubt they pinpointed the tea thing.

Independent of the whole adaptation thing, I really wish they at least told us what Jia Huan's name was before the Fuckening. God knows when we're gonna ever have lore drops of him again, so I wish we had just a little bit more. When Yuanchun was introduced I genuinely thought it was Xifeng - she'd work perfectly in her role. And when we had that Hunger Games Announcer I thought that surely had to be Xifeng. Ha. Haha. I'm taking a huge L here. Even if I read this in the best faith possible and say Maaaybe they'll cover the rest of the book, from the infamous scenes to Xifeng to Yingchun to the fake marriage plot.... Grandma's gone. H Corp has a Not Shit leader. The setup would be like mush.

To be honest, the whole Confucius thing made me head tilt but I also don't know much about that stuff to say much. But it did really confuse me that he was the deus ex machina Good Guy when the whole novel is like 'confucian influenced ideals in society is tearing me apart'. Thought there'd at least be some sort of commentary on feudalist and confucian society... but I didn't see it? It's frustrating because limbus has done decent adaptations with c1 and c3. I guess the books were short enough that they were actually read.

Canto 8 is very very well written compared to Canto 7, on a purely story level. I cared about the characters, the plot was fleshed out properly. C7 barely had the plot of Don Quixote at all. I think it's a bit crazy how KJH's response to a long text is to not adapt any plot elements at all, considering I was also too lazy to read the book but I decided to read an abridged children's book instead. And I still knew enough to know none of this was Cervantes' doing.

I wish I didn't have to go "I would have absolutely loved this canto if I were blissfully unaware of the book until now". But that is exactly how I'm feeling right now and it's really unfortunate.

Canto 8 thoughts now that I've finally reached Pass On.

To preface: I enjoyed the canto. Hong Lu is my favourite Sinner of all. I read the whole of dotrc and watched the drama. I loved it. Having said that...

I do not think kim jihoon read dream of the red chamber. Which... yeah, fair. He's probably on a schedule of 4 hours sleep every day. However, with parts of the canto it becomes very much obvious that he has not engaged with the book.

Reasoning:

The large amount of original NPCs in comparison to book characters. This is probably the biggest giveaway - I don't even mean the likes of Jia Qiu and Zilu, but moreso no-names from the Wang, Shi and Jia families scattered across the canto. Almost none of our part 2 opponents, bar Xue Pan, exist in the book at all. It is a slightly strange decision to make, given the absurd amount of named characters in the book.

There's also the lack of several major characters. I think that every single book reader truly believed Wang Xifeng would play a role in the canto. She plays a major role in running the Jia household, and several of the most dramatic scenes in the novel feature her. I love that they kept Xiren, but having so many multifaceted and beloved characters trimmed away is a little jarring. Yingchun and Tanchun are also nowhere to be seen, and there is zero reference to Zhen Baoyu. A good chunk of important book characters, themes and scenes are completely cut out.

On a similar note, the major altering of defining plot and character points. Daiyu's main trait is her sickliness and proneness to tears, as well as her unending love for Baoyu. Baoyu and Daiyu's relationship steadily develop over the years, until Daiyu sheds all her tears and dies of a broken heart the day of Baochai and Baoyu's wedding. While her tough cookie adaptation self has grown on me very much, she does not resemble book Daiyu. Limbus Cathy resembles book Daiyu much more. Daiyu and Hong Lu love each other, but are destined to not be together in this lifetime (hello canto 6). There is a recurring theme of limbus taking complex female characters and completely altering them.

While book Baoyu is spoiled and coddled by his grandma, limbus Baoyu's trauma is almost solely due to Evil Old Dowager. Book Baoyu is beaten by his father over a false accusation, while his mother sobs and loudly proclaims "a hundred Baoyus could die if her eldest son would come back to life". Book Grandma ran out to stop Baoyu from being beaten half to death. While definitely not innocent in the sense of classism and feudalism, she and Yuanchun are one of the kindest people to Baoyu, raising him and teaching him from childhood. Having two kind female characters turned cartoonishly evil is a questionable decision.

And Baochai. She bears zero resemblance to her book self - the leap is bigger than book cathy and limbus cathy by far. Book Baochai adheres to tradition, suppresses her emotions and pursues marriage to Baoyu as a practical rather than romantic choice. She is very aware of her position as an upper-class Woman, of the limitations cast upon her. Her open personality in limbus is the polar opposite of her book self, though her actions can be very much read as a survival tactic rather than genuine bubbliness. Knowing full well Baoyu's heart is not with her, she still acts as a model wife and urges Baoyu to study to fulfill his duties as a man. Limbus Baochai, although kind, is still painted as a somewhat jilted lover in the epilogue who genuinely loves Hong Lu beyond what's best for her wellbeing and safety. Writing her as a shojo-esque bubbly guro loving romantic girl does somewhat of a disservice to her original character.

I would not have minded cartoonishly evil Grandma or Yuanchun, had they shown evidence of them actually reading the book. There are several cartoonishly evil villains, men and women, in the book - who are all completely ignored in favour of turning kind side characters evil. As far as I know, none of the side characters in limbus bear any resemblance to their book counterparts. Xue Pan is a entitled, sleazy and corrupt man who routinely. abuses his power. Baoyu's father is a heavy-handed traditionalist who almost beat his son to permanent ass damage. Baoyu's mother harms the livelihoods of several of Baoyu's maids on multiple occasions, having a hand in destroying his friendship with the maids around him. Jia Huan is a mean younger brother who is jealous of him, and is generally disliked and mistreated by the household. Limbus' adaptation of Baoyu is pretty great, but that is unfortunately where it ends - none of the other characters act remotely like their book selves.

There's also distinct lack of novel easter eggs, scenes and themes compared to cantos such as 3 and 6. The most notable elements taken from the canon source material is the famous poem by Daiyu, Jia Zhen's search for immortality, and Baoyu's altered mental states after losing his jade mirroring Hong Lu's dissociation. This is also very loosely extracted -the poem by Daiyu laments her own fragile and short life, comparing it to the flowers that scatter. Jia Zhen ingests a bunch of metals to achieve immortality and dies. Baoyu's mental state fluctuates even after losing the jade, returning to near-normal when he's tricked into believing he's marrying Daiyu. Other notable scenes they never included - Baoyu being burned by Jia Huan, Baoyu almost being cursed to death by Jia Huan's mom, the formation of the Poetry Club, the false marriage, Baoyu visiting Land of Illusion.

Baoyu's Land of Illusion is never explained - in the Japanese/Korean version, Hong Lu's EGO is named 虚幻境 while the scenery in Canto 8 is clearly marked 太虚幻境. This distinction is never explained, and "Let's visit the land of illusion" is also never explained. It can be very loosely interpreted as an inner world where his inner child lives, but there is absolutely zero discernible importance within the story.

I know that the popular response to source material adaptation critique is "of course it won't be 1:1" - which I agree. I would not have minded a non-romantic Daiyu and Baoyu. I would not have minded every single side character being cartoonishly evil. I would have even tried looked past them ignoring all gendered oppression and converting it into familial violence and classism. Statistically, I doubt most players have read the massive novel, and perhaps they knew this and took so many liberties with the book. I cannot blame that - but it is very disappointing that the majority of dotrc readers are voicing disappointment, saying they would have gone into the canto blind and enjoyed it much more. I don't think it's a good adaptation if the source readers are largely disappointed.

To explain it in a different context, picture a Romeo and Juliet adaptation - except Romeo and Juliet don't ever love each other and survive till the end, Rosaline is head over heels with Romeo, Mercutio straight up doesn't exist, and the big bad villain of the whole canto is Friar Lawrence. Or picture a Little Women adaptation where half of the sisters are gone. Although liberties can and should be taken, there is a point where readers will go "If this is your take on this book, you probably didn't actually read it from start to finish".

While the canto has grown on me, canto 8 is better enjoyed as a totally original story rather than anything related to Dream of the Red Chamber. I still recommend reading the novel - it's an amazing story with many entertaining adaptations. It is just unfortunate that the limbus adaptation does not make the read worthwhile, and instead makes it less immersive for those who read the book prior.

#canto 8 #reply

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enkephallic · 2 months ago

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Canto 8 thoughts now that I've finally reached Pass On.

To preface: I enjoyed the canto. Hong Lu is my favourite Sinner of all. I read the whole of dotrc and watched the drama. I loved it. Having said that...

Reasoning:

#limbus company #canto 8 #hong lu #dream of the red chamber

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enkephallic · 2 months ago

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castrationcest

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enkephallic · 2 months ago

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I wrote R corp Heathlu suffering misery with a bit of fuck. Come and take a look

https://archiveofourown.org/works/65315782

#limbus company #heathlu #lcb hong lu #lcb heathcliff

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enkephallic · 3 months ago

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everyone. all of them

shitpost company

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enkephallic · 3 months ago

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wrote fucked up xichun character study fic. read the tags carefully. come take a look

https://archiveofourown.org/works/64877794

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enkephallic · 3 months ago

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shitpost company

#limbus company #lcb hong lu #jia xichun lcb

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enkephallic · 4 months ago

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Played the Nocturnal Sweeping Intervallo and one thing stuck out to me like a sore bellend. (Spoilers ahead!)

The narrative is suddenly scathingly mean to Heathcliff.

And not in a good way. The other Sinners continue to imply he's unintelligent, which has been repeatedly brought up in Canto 6 as a way to demean him. While there were also mean-spirited comments in LCB Check-up, I hoped that it was a one-off occurrence.

Nope. In Nocturnal Sweeping, they kick it up by having the Sinners collectively excuse physical violence to shut him up - after he spoke up indignantly on behalf of Vergilius. Several of them take the stance that Heathcliff should have kept his voice down, but it's so uncharacteristically mean that Dante comments on it inwardly.

Which means it's happening on purpose - possibly for a narrative later down the line. Of course, with how Limbus utilizes foreshadowing, I would argue that this is the case. Much like Timekilling Time delving deeper into Rodya's insecurities, a future Intervallo may have Heathcliff snap from the constant misunderstandings and prodding.

That is the best faith reading of all this sudden picking-on-Heathcliff business. And I still think it sucks.

Post-Canto 6 Heathcliff suffers from the exact same fate Canto 6 did. He suffers endlessly, with very little support from people around him - and the payoff is just not cathartic or satisfying relative to his suffering. Heathcliff is continuously mocked, berated, abused throughout his life. He leaves, comes back, and is subject to mistreatment once more. The Sinners don't back him up. He distorts. Still trudges on.

What does he get in return? No bough. His childhood butler betraying him. His lover deleted from existence. The Sinners, all witnesses to each other's trauma and healing, remembering jack fuck all about his trauma and stepping on his wounds constantly.

Canto 6 and its aftermath can hardly be called cathartic. Post-Intervallo Heathcliff suffers from this, but worse - he's come to love his colleagues, outright considering them a found family. What he gets in return is a mean-spirited comment every new event, and now actual violence.

The canonical victim of severe childhood abuse being subject to slapstick violence hardly leaves a pleasant aftertaste. But another crucial point remains - it reflects badly on the other Sinners. While Ishmael's shortness is not out of character, her most recent comments questionable at best, it still makes her look bad on a narrative level. Heathcliff pulls her out of her literal shell of despair, respecting her as a seafarer and teammate. What do they make her do in return? Continue to jab at him, miss every opportunity to parallel his symbolic action of "pulling her out of despair".

While Ryoshu's violent tendencies are hardly OOC, and Rodya's irritation at Heathcliff's loud ranting may be justified, it still serves the narrative purpose of several colleagues pinpointing Heathcliff as an issue that needs fixing. In a violent manner, no less. While several reasonings can be made to justify their individual actions (the memory wipe, misunderstandings of Canto 6 events, foreshadowing...), it does not change the simple facts of the matter. Heathcliff, forced to live on bare minimum for most of his life, is being mistreated by the closest people in his life.

I do not like seeing my favourite characters treat another favourite character in such manner.

I enjoyed Heathcliff and Ishmael beefing in SEA. I enjoyed Outis and Ishmael bitching at each other in Canto 5. I loved seeing Rodya crash out and lash out in TKT. I like character conflict and unlikeable personality clashes when it is written well.

Heathcliff's treatment feels like a one-sided beatdown, played for laughs rather than addressing Sinner conflicts. Instead of having two Sinners creating friction with one another (Much like Ishmael and Heathcliff up to Canto 5), it's several Sinners being written into scenes that end with Heathcliff as the punchline. I do not see the need for this. I do not see how all of these scenes will accumulate into a satisfying Intervallo where they are tied together. Rather, it feels like waiting for Heathcliff's inevitable Canto 6 distortion while nobody stood up to his abusers.

I genuinely hope that Canto 8 will lay off on Heathcliff - I love Sinner camaraderie, and everything in the Intervallo bar this issue has laid the groundwork for some amazing interactions.

#limbus company #lcb heathcliff #lcb hong lu #nocturnal sweeping

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enkephallic · 4 months ago

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https://archiveofourown.org/works/63744685

I wrote an ishrodya fic. Come and read it if you like mean lesbian action

#limbus company #lcb ishmael #lcb rodya

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enkephallic · 5 months ago

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I read Dream of the Red Chamber so you don't have to - feat. Canto 8 theories

Overview

Dream of the Red Chamber is the longest of the Sinners' original texts, and one of China's most famous classics. Jia Baoyu was born with a jade in his mouth, which he always carries as a necklace. His cousin of the same age, Lin Daiyu, has been orphaned and has to live with Baoyu and his family. Baoyu enjoys playing and writing poetry with his sisters, cousins and maids, but various factors lead to the downfall of the Jia family.

Characters, themes and predictions under the cut. Very, very long so be warned:

Characters

Jia Baoyu

The protagonist born with a jade in his mouth. The stone was originally in the Heavenly Realm, but was sent down to the profane world by a Taoist and a monk because it was interested in their stories.

In his previous life, he had a deep connection with his cousin Daiyu. When he first meets her, he says: "I've seen you before!" Surrounded by Daiyu, Baochai and the other girls, he enjoys life every day. Hates studying. Unlike Hong Lu, Baoyu is very emotive and cries and laughs a lot. Unfortunately he doesn't stay that way forever.

Baoyu is actually the second son. His older brother died after marrying and having a child - Baoyu has a nephew called Lan.

Lin Daiyu

Daiyu was a flower in her past life, watered by the stone that became Jia Baoyu. When she entered the human realm, she promises to dedicate all her tears to him. Crying for Baoyu becomes her fate, and she often bickers or fights with him and cries.

Daiyu comes to live with the Jia family after becoming orphaned. She often feels awkward and uncomfortable due to this, and sometimes cries from loneliness. Women without parents do not have much power in this era, which leaves her in a state of fragility. However, she does not spend all her days crying - sharp-tongued and witty, she excels at writing poetry.

Xue Baochai

Baoyu's cousin, two years older than him. Reliable and realistic, but rather cold to other people. Plump and obedient, she completely abides by social norms and does not question gender roles or servant/master dynamics.

Her surname is a homophone of "snow", and she is remarked to be as cold as such. Her necklace matches Baoyu's as gold and jade, which is believed to be good luck and factors into their eventual marriage. She is kind and amiable, but her conservative values differ greatly from Baoyu's.

Hua Xiren

Also called Aroma in some translations. Two or three years older than Baoyu, and the one to take his virginity. A reliable maid and Baoyu's unofficial chamber wife. She takes good care of him, but often pushes societal and family expectations onto him. Often pleading with him to study properly. Her name means "The aroma of flowers assails person", taken from a poem and given to her by Baoyu.

Wang Xifeng

Baoyu's cousin who married into the family. A sharp-tongued woman who excels at management and business, but once angered cannot be placated. Has killed several people indirectly. She is placed in charge of the family accounts, but her loan sharking gets the household into trouble towards the end. Her husband, Jia Lian, is a piece of shit cheater.

After her miscarriage, her health deteriorates and never fully gets better. She ends up dying from sheer stress worsening her illness. A strong woman, but a woman nonetheless as she cannot read and often suffers under gendered expectations. However, she is quite scummy, and is the mastermind behind Baoyu's deceptive wedding. Other examples of her cunning behaviour include leading an annoying flirtatious man on and shutting him out in the cold, starting a chain of events that lead to his death. When her scummy husband takes a concubine without her knowledge, she pretends to be friendly to her while spreading rumours behind the scenes and driving her to suicide.

Jia Yuanchun

Baoyu's older sister, quite a few years above him. She taught him how to read and write. The emperor chose her to be an imperial consort, which brought great honour to her family. However, she doesn't have much fun there and dies young.

Jia Yingchun

A quiet and rather dull cousin of Baoyu. Has nothing going for her, and is often called a dunce or "just kind of there". She doesn't speak up when things bother her, and cannot stand up to her maids and nanny even if their conduct is bad. Ends up married to an abusive man, and despite Baoyu wanting to save her, she dies from the stress of her abuse.

Jia Tanchun

The daughter of a concubine, directly related to Jia Huan. But her personality is much different to his, and she is very reliable. When Xifeng was ill, she took over household duties and ran the place. She can be cold and ruthless to people who look down on her, and is likened to a beautiful rose with thorns. Marries far away, but comes back to the capital towards the end and stays alive.

Jia Xichun

Baoyu's third cousin, and the youngest girl. Adept at painting, Grandmother Jia asks her to undertake a large project to paint the manor's garden. Her father Jia Jing is engrossed in his research of immortality, and ends up dying after repeatedly drinking cinnabar. She does not know much parental love, and her older brother Jia Zhen loves women a little too much. Disliking the Ningguo House her brother is in charge of due to this, she prefers staying over with Baoyu and the other girls.

When the household begins to fall from grace, her good friend and nun Miaoyu is kidnapped by bandits. Xichun decides to become a nun, abandoning her responsibilities as a woman and rejecting her family's pleas and opposition. She is the one who gets along with Baoyu the most at the end, and lives to see the end of the book.

Jia Huan

Hong Lu's half brother, the son of a concubine. Not treated with much regard, but has a horrible personality regardless. He knocks over a candle to burn Baoyu's face, and tells a lie that gets Baoyu severely beaten. His mother also conspires with Baoyu's godmother to curse Baoyu and Xifeng to death - that's likely where he got it from.

Not treated very well. When things go missing, he is questioned. When a maid tricks him over something minor, his mother goes into hysterics and makes his life harder. Not very close with his mother, either. His studies and poetry are also mediocre, and no one expects much from him. Towards the end, he becomes a drunkard who whores around with the other men. When Xifeng dies, he attempts to sell off her daughter to a Mongol prince for some money. Just a terrible guy by then.

Qingwen

Called Skybright in some translations. A rather prideful maid assigned to Baoyu who excels in sewing. She doesn't "know her place" as one of servitude and even argues with Baoyu, but Baoyu likes her and they always make up after a fight. She also sews Baoyu's coat after he accidentally damaged it, staying up all night despite being sick. When the child actors and an old maid begin arguing, she never makes a move to stop them and simply laughs at the entertainment. When Baoyu crams his studies, she yells at the other maids "don't you dare fall asleep". When she finds out another maid stole her bracelet, she stabs her hand with a needle in fury. A chaotic girl overall.

Her strong personality attracts the ire of some older women, who snitch on her to Baoyu's mother (Lady Wang). When she's called to meet Lady Wang, she heads over in unkempt attire because she was feeling unwell. Lady Wang heavily berates her, worsening her health. Eventually she is fired and forced to live at her cousin's disgusting house. Baoyu, knowing she's grown up in a lavish manor and not used to any of this, worries for her and sneaks out to visit her. He finds her dying of illness, rotting alone in a dirty house. Unable to prove her innocence, she laments "If I knew this would happen, I would have done things differently!". Her funeral is done very shoddily because her family only wants the money. Her death is one of the most miserable in the book.

Ping'er

Xifeng's maid and right hand. Trusted and relied on by everyone, she is deeply competent and helpful throughout the series. After the fall of the Jia family and death of Xifeng, she helps smuggle her daughter into a village so she doesn't get married off to a random Mongol Prince. Her loyalties lie with her master even after her death.

Elements Likely to be Touched on in Canto 8

Land of Illusion

Hong Lu's EGO. It is a world full of fairies (仙女) in the heavenly realm, and Baoyu first visits there when he is 8 years old. In the dream, he reads a register containing the fates of twelve women around him, but he is a child and does not understand any of it.

A fairy tells him that he is an "amorous profligate" - in other words, "the most lewd man of all". He claims he doesn't even know what that means, being a young child. She explains no, she's not calling him a lusty sex-crazed man, but someone who lusts for the company of women. And it would be fine in the celestial world, but in the real world, he will be ridiculed for it.

She then proceeds to show the boy how to have sex, and tells him he must also have sex in the real world with her 'sister'. This woman turns out to be Xiren, Baoyu's servant girl. After Baoyu wakes up from his wet dream, she has sex with him.

The Land of Illusion is not really touched upon until the end of the book. Some female characters who die in the book go to the Land of Illusion, and so it is something like a heavenly realm.

At the end of the book, Baoyu visits the realm again. After losing his jade for around ten chapters, a mysterious monk shows up with it and gives it back to him. Immediately after his jade is returned, he is taken to the Land of Illusion once more. There, he meets fairies who look just like his deceased maids, but none act as if they know him. When he is taken to a room where the deceased Daiyu resides, the others yell "You unmannerly thing!" and kick him out.

Baoyu reads the register containing the fates of the women around him again, and this time he's an adult so he understands everything.

"So everything was predestined..."

After peeking into the future of all the women around him, his affections cease and he stops obsessing over girls.

Ghosts and the Spiritual Realm

Ghosts often appear in Dream of the Red Chamber, with one example being You San-jie. When she is rejected by the man she wished to marry, she slices her own neck and kills herself. Her ghosts visits the man, tells him "I have thrown away my worldly desires now, and I reside in the Land of Illusion. We are strangers now."

Xifeng is also visited by the ghost of a woman who died early in the book, warning her that she "didn't heed her warnings" and continued to play dangerous with the family's money. Before her death, she is also visited by You Er-jie's ghost - she apologizes for driving her to suicide, and the two women make amends.

In one chapter, rumours that the Jia family's garden is haunted spreads. Many fall sick and some die due to these ghosts, and an exorcism is carried out to solve the hauntings. Ghosts are an established occurrence in the book, often leaving warnings or messages. Most ghosts are women who died and went to the Land of Illusion.

When Grandmother Jia's maid, Yuanyang, wishes to die after the former's disastrous funeral, a ghost from the Land of Illusion mimics hanging herself and teaches her which method to die with. After she completes her suicide, her spirit is taken to the Land of Illusion.

As well as the Land of the Illusion, the Underworld is also mentioned as a place where the dead go. Baoyu's friend and schoolmate Qin Zhong bargains with the demons in the underworld to prolong his death, so that he may speak to Baoyu one last time. Baoyu also visits the underworld once, looking for Daiyu after her death.

"Her soul is not a normal one, you won't find her here! She's in the Land of Illusion!"

Following that, the demons chuck him back into the real world.

Dream of the Red Chamber has its own view of life and death - some go to the underworld, some go to the Land of Illusion. Baoyu and Daiyu are both reincarnated from the heavenly realm, and are assigned a fixed role to fulfill throughout their lives.

Baoyu's Jade

Baoyu was born with a piece of jade in his mouth, and Hong Lu's eye is very likely to be just this. It is difficult to state what role the jade plays exactly, but when something happens to the jade, it also affects Baoyu. The servants recognize the jade as "just as important as Baoyu's life".

When Baoyu almost dies after a curse is placed on him, a Taoist and a monk come and purify his jade. "Though tainted by the profane world, you will eventually wake from the dream..." they say, and leave him to get well quickly.

Towards the end of the book, Baoyu suddenly loses his jade. The household looks everywhere in a panic to no avail. Baoyu becomes spaced out and idle after losing his jade, giggling and barely having a mind of his own. He stops eating and spends all his time laying down. He remains in a state where his own self is barely there.

In an attempt to fix this, his family plan a marriage for him. Baochai and Baoyu have matching necklaces, and they decide to marry them to turn around his luck. But some know that Baoyu only loves Daiyu. They decide to deceive him, telling him "You're gonna marry Daiyu!". This almost completely cures his condition, and he displays outward joy at the prospect. This brings to question how much the jade actually had an effect on his mental state - but that does not matter, because as soon as he realizes he's been tricked he completely loses it. They probably should have seen it coming.

Hong Lu's jade may also be there to stabilize his mental or physical state. Or rather, if his mental state is compromised it will probably reflect in his jade eye.

Jia Baoyu, Zhen Baoyu

In the novel, there exist two families with a Baoyu - Jia family and Zhen family. While Jia is a homophone of "false", Zhen is a homophone of "true". Everything about the two Baoyus are identical, from face to personality - except for Zhen Baoyu being a year younger. Jia Baoyu meets Zhen Baoyu in a dream once, but only meets him in person towards the end of the book.

Zhen Baoyu does not directly appear for most of the book, but descriptions of him echo Jia Baoyu's person:

Loves girls, hates studying. "The word girl is precious, so if you say it with a dirty mouth I'll yank those teeth out."

Falls sick and visits the Land of Illusions, hinted to have read the register about the girls' fates. Completely loses his interest girls, sticks to studying.

The Zhen family and the Jia family both get their assets seized.

When Baoyu meets Zhen Baoyu, he is happy at first but realizes this guy is just another career worm - "study hard" this, "filial piety" that. He complains to Baochai that Zhen Baoyu is just another fool, and he wishes he didn't look like him. Baochai rebukes him, upholding the traditions and expectations placed upon Baoyu.

Zhen Baoyu had already turned into "The Baoyu society expects". He acts as a sort of parallel to Baoyu, who has not yet reached enlightenment.

From this, it can be guessed that Hong Lu will also meet his alter ego and "the person people want him to be".

Sickness in Mind

Illness often comes up in Dream of the Red Chamber - Daiyu is sickly, and strong emotions cause her health to take a turn for the worse. When she hears Baoyu and Baochai are getting married, she vomits blood and dies of a broken heart. Sadness and helplessness end up killing her.

Many other characters also die of illness, which starts as something small and progresses into full-blown pneumonia or tuberculosis. Grandmother Jia's death starts with indigestion, and Qingwen catching a cold from being outside in harsh weather turns to tuberculosis. Yuanchun and Yingchun are also hinted to have died from stress eating at their bodies.

Granny Liu, a distant relative who lives as a peasant, remarks that poor folk never get sick. Indeed only the rich die from these diseases, but it does not act as an indicator of rich folk having fragile health.

Rather, characters who die from illness experience powerlessness. Daiyu is unable to change her fate - being orphaned, she has zero power or say in who she marries. She gives up everything and chooses death, wishing her body will kill her. Qingwen is fired from the manor and dies with her name tainted, despairing and crying out for her mother. Grandmother Jia witnesses the downfall of the family and dies. Xifeng, already quite sick, is hit with a combo of her loan sharking being exposed, being blamed for Grandmother's funeral going to absolute shit, and servants refusing to listen to her orders. She ends up vomiting blood and dying shortly after.

The characters in the novel, faced with unbearable despair, end up being killed by their own bodies. Utterly consumed by their helplessness and misery, they face something akin to a distortion or becoming a peccatula.

Mundane, Inescapable Horrors

Even considering the historical context, Dream of the Red Chamber is filled with mundane horrors. Women lose their status the moment they marry, and Baoyu often faces struggles he can do nothing about.

Maids lose their homes as soon as their employment is terminated - being fired can mean death. The relationships cultivated with their masters and ladies remain fundamentally unequal. When Baoyu disappears at the end of the book, Xiren is married off to someone of her own status despite serving him for all his life. Though her marriage is a happy one, the prospect of losing her employment almost drives her to suicide. Some characters do kill themselves or die of illness after being terminated.

Baoyu also faces unfairness he can do nothing about. Most of the time, it is witnessing the misfortunes of the women around him. Qingwen, chased out and slowly killed by her own body. Yingchun, who he pleaded with his mother many times "Let's save her, we need to bring him down" to no avail. The maids he loved, chased out of the manor because "they are nothing but distractions for him". His parents and those around him break apart his feminine utopia.

"We should all just die already! What's the point of living!" "Why do girls need to marry when they grow up, and suffer? We used to play and write poems together, but now everyone's married or gone back home! It's all ruined!"

After failing to convince his mother to save Yingchun, Baoyu rants to Daiyu while crying. Because he knows married women are dirtied by men or lose their authentic selves, he is drawn to young unmarried girls.

Baoyu himself faces unfair violence. His father, annoyed at him over minor things, hears Huan tell him "Baoyu attempted to rape a maid, and she killed herself". Though a complete lie, his father flies into a rage and screams "Beat him!". He beats him until the skin comes off his buttocks.

Baoyu's mother pleads, "Don't! Who cares if you kill Baoyu, but what if Grandmother gets sick from this?". His father responds with "I have committed filial impiety by bringing him into the world! I'll kill him, get the rope!". Baoyu's buttocks are flayed and bleeding profusely by then.

Once the beating is forcefully stopped, Baoyu's mother sees the wounds and bursts into tears. She cries for her dead eldest son, yelling "If only you were alive, I wouldn't have minded a hundred of my sons dead!". Only Grandmother Jia seems truly upset that Baoyu was beaten. Baochai tells him "It's because of how you always act", while Xiren tells his mother "It's good he was beaten, hopefully he'll straighten up." Though everyone is thinking about Baoyu's own good, it manifests as abuse apologia.

Though small compared to the beating, when Granny Liu comes to visit, she is given a large welcome and a feast. Everyone in the manor decide to make fun of her - making her drink, handing her heavy chopsticks, tricking her into making an embarrassing poem about herself. They all laugh so much they spit their food out. Though Granny Liu doesn't mind, the image of a disgustingly rich family making fun of a poor old women leaves a somewhat bitter taste. A maid is also seen complaining "I don't want to touch the bowl she touched", and Daiyu calls her a "Locust with a ravenous appetite" after she leaves.

The chapter where Xifeng discovers her husband's affair is also quite terrible. Hearing the words "Xifeng is a demonic hag who should die" and "Ping'er should be the official wife, not her", she flies into a demonic rage and first slaps Ping'er despite her being innocent. She then throws open the door, slaps the mistress, screams and cries. Her husband also flies into a rage, grabbing his sword and chasing her while threatening to kill her.

Xifeng escapes, crying to Grandmother Jia that her husband is trying to kill her. Grandmother ends the fight, rebuking her husband and reassuring her "Men are just like that, it's nothing serious". Though Xifeng gets an apology, the attempted murder is never touched upon again. The mistress ends up hanging herself.

There are also many descriptions of the poor folk struggling under feudalism. When a member of the Jia family discovers a poor man owns twenty fans they desperately want, they lie about him missing payments and forcibly seize the fans. When it is time for the collection of annual tributes, a farmer is yelled at for his produce not being enough. It is stressed that the Jia family's lifestyle is paid for by the common folk they exploit. Even so, the Jia family somehow spend beyond their means and end up in debt.

The worst horror of all would be Baoyu's sham marriage. After losing his jade, they decide to marry him to Baochai to turn around his luck. Everyone around him decide to deceive him, telling him he'll marry Daiyu while preparing Baochai as his bride. Even Xiren agrees to deceive him. Feeling like Baoyu chose Baochai over her, Daiyu burns all her poems and the handkerchief Baoyu wrote on. She dies of a broken heart in her room, while the marriage is being officiated. Baoyu takes off Baochai's head covering, realizes she's not Daiyu, loses it. Even after his marriage, Baochai constantly reminds him of his duties as a male and the need to study. He has absolutely no time for grieving all his losses.

The book ending also leaves a strange taste in one's mouth. Baochai's brother, convicted of murder, is released through bribes, a sham trial and an imperial pardon of the whole Jia family. The banished members of the family are allowed to return, and their assets are un-seized. This is all thanks to Baoyu scoring seventh in the examinations - he ends up saving his family. But was it a family worth being saved? This bittersweet ending will likely affect Canto 8.

Remaining Questions

Hong Lu's Family Structure

Though Huan is a little brother in the original source, he is introduced as Hong Lu's older brother. Xichun, his third cousin, is simply described as his sister. Due to the absurdly complex family tree, Limbus Company likely simplified it. Hong Lu does not have any other little brothers, but the little brother mentioned in Limbus Company may be Jia Lan (his nephew). This is because the need for a deceased older brother may disappear, due to Limbus Huan's existence.

The concubines will also likely be changed, due to Limbus Company's lack of outward gender separations. This means that Tanchun and Huan will likely not be children of concubines.

The grandfather Hong Lu mentions is a total mystery - from the start of the book, Grandmother Jia is widowed.

Both Daiyu and Baochai are Baoyu's cousins, leaving some issues around the love story plot. Since Hong Lu has never mentioned either, they may not even appear in the story as a human. However, making them strangers would not really fit with the themes - this is a mystery for when the canto comes out.

When did Hong Lu leave?

Hong Lu's attitude and personality seem close to "Baoyu after losing his jade" - however, towards the end of the book after this happens, Grandmother, Daiyu, Xifeng and Yingchun are all dead. It's unlikely they would host the Jia family head wars with half the cast dead. And more importantly, Hong Lu's jade eye is very much present.

Though Hong Lu could also be compared to "Baoyu at the very end, reaching enlightenment and realizing fate cannot be changed", the issue of the dead family members remain. Hong Lu has an air of learned helplessness, but not so much enlightened and ready to return to the heavenly realm.

Looking at the timeline may not help much either, considering that the grandfather may still be alive. One theory I have for when he left the family is "The transitional period in Baoyu's generation of children". Baoyu's life of fun and poetry begins to change slowly as they grow up - masculinity is pushed on him, while the girls are forced to marry or fired from their job. Though Baoyu has no lust, he is told that the girls are a distraction and that he must study as a boy.

Baoyu wishes very strongly for things to stay the same, for his place of belonging to remain untouched. When his sisters or maids face pain or misfortune, he expresses anger and sadness. I theorize that Hong Lu's wish is "To change his family and environment himself, not just watch it shatter". Baoyu's struggle against feudalist society and gender inequality may connect to the reason for Hong Lu joining the company.

Baoyu's Femininity

Baoyu cannot be spoken about without mentioning his female relations, but gender in Limbus Company is expressed quite differently than the source. This is a large point of mystery as I currently write this.

Baoyu envelops femininity from birth - as a toddler, when doing the traditional birthday grab, Baoyu goes for the objects associated with women. At age 8, he proclaims "Girls' bodies are made of water, boys' bodies are made of mud. When I see girls, I feel clean and refreshed. But when I see boys, I feel all disgusting!" From this, his worship for the feminine can be discerned. When he visits the Land of Illusion, the fairy tells him "You're not lustful in the sexual sense, but you desire deep friendships with women". Indeed, Baoyu is not flirtatious or easily swooned - he simply loves playing with his sisters and maids.

It is also not as simple as Baoyu loving all women. He dislikes old women who lecture him, and does not have much interest in married women. He also has close friendships with feminine men, such as an actor who plays female roles. When he heads to school with Qin Zhong, they are both attracted to pretty boys in their class. Homosexual attraction is also touched upon within the book a few times. The femininity Baoyu wishes for is "A woman who can live as herself, unburdened by the shackles of marriage".

Baoyu dislikes both men and women who lecture him about fame and success. He claims that "Old people of the past just said all this fancy stuff, so they could guide the dirty men that come after them. I am sadly born a man, but not even the women are spared from these impure ideologies!" Baoyu hates the male expectations placed upon him, to be successful and get a good career. It is one of the reasons why he is drawn to women.

There are also many who theorize Baoyu to be transgender, as he fixates on blending into the women rather than desiring them sexually or romantically. He always spends time with the girls, sitting with them during banquets and becoming part of the all-girls poetry club since its inception. Even after Xiren becomes his chamber maid, there are almost no implications that they have sex. Instead, he is consistently shown as wanting to be "one of the girls". Grandmother Jia remarks, "Perhaps you were a maid in your past life - perhaps you were meant to be born as a girl!"

After masculinity is pushed on Baoyu and he is dragged away from the girls, his emotional state begins to waver. He cries and wails every time someone gets married, saying they are all leaving him one by one. Baochai and Xiren often remind him he is not a child anymore, and he must act like the man he is.

Because of this, the rejection of societal roles will likely be a large theme in Canto 8.

#limbus company #lcb hong lu #dream of the red chamber #limbus theory

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