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The Rey movie keeps getting placed on hold so many times that at this point. I won’t be surprised if they end up recycling Scarlet Witch’s storyline and have Rey go to the dark side, rip a hole in the multiverse, and try snatching up an alternate universe Ben. Killing her in the process. At least the dudebros would love it. Probably.

I feel like that is a wildly optimistic suggestion for a plot. That would require them completely walking back the 'cinematic universe' avatar Rey Star Wars™ characterisation (using the word loosely).

A Rey who goes nuclear to bring Ben back is a Rey who has flaws and human desires and actually cares about Ben, and DLF buried that Rey in 3 metres of concrete with a stake through her heart.

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The Love Hypothesis is officially about to begin shooting in Canada. Complete with a director, producer, a script and Lili Reinhart as the lead. Yet Disney can’t get one project out of pre pre production hell. This is poetic justice.

It is objectively hilarious and we all deserve to point and laugh.

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Where division is concerned, I’ve seen a few people refer to Ben as “The son of Luke’s best friend” which struck me as bizarre. A very roundabout way of describing his relationship to Luke that puts a good deal of distance between them (while also erasing Leia from the equation entirely). It’s like…that is is nephew plain and simple, literally what else could he be? He’s family!

Anyways, the salt is eternal.

Yeah, that is so ass-backward, I would assume the person saying it has either a total disconnect in their own mind or a rhetorical agenda.

Because, yeah, sure, he is the son of Luke's best friend, but mentioning that can only be trying to manufacture steps of removal when the far more relevant thing to say is that he is Luke's nephew. We don't need a third person at stake to define their relationship, we have a word for what it is.

Ben is his literal blood family as well as being a child who was directly in his care for half his life.

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Does it ever feel like Ben is singled out as the lone “bad apple” of the Skywalker family to exonerate the three original heroes of Star Wars?

No, because Ben is always in Anakin's shadow and both his arc and the arcs of Luke and Leia in the ST are precipitated by that shadow. Anakin's legacy as the Skywalker gone wrong defines the entire plot and dominates Ben's entire life, so to say he's singled out as the only problem Skywalker just couldn't really be farther from the truth. He was targetted by Snoke because of Anakin, Leia failed him as a parent because she never reconciled with Anakin, Han was afraid of him because of Anakin, Luke's catastrophic moment of weakness/betrayal was because of fear of Vader, Ben's own fatalism is because of finding out the truth about Anakin, etc.

The real problem is the way he is divided from his family and his plot is kept fully sequestered from everything else as if it's separate, making it seem like he is not, in fact, the last Skywalker and the emotional centre of the narrative, which might be the feeling you're trying to describe here. Like he is a 'fanboy' and not literally Anakin's grandson and, especially, Luke's nephew, for whom Luke is responsible.

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I don't know about that specific person, anon, but definitely it's a general issue. I've seen some real breathtaking shit here and there.

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So a couple of days ago an interview with J*hn B*y*ga was released and he was asked how he felt about Reylo. You would think after almost 6 years he’d be over it by now, but NOPE!

He still thinks Rey should have got with Finn and claimed that Kylo chased Rey around the galaxy with the intention to, get this… kill her. 🤣😂

Some have argued that he doesn’t understand the themes or story of the sequel trilogy, but personally I think he does. Shitting on Reylo is just a sure fire way for him to get attention. He also thinks that all Reylos are straight and female. 🙃

Just when I thought that he had done some growing up and soul searching. Turns out he just got even more immature and misogynistic. Because he would never in a million years say any of this to AD’s face. In fact he’d scurry away the moment AD looked in his direction if he had an inkling that a confrontation was afoot.

I could not possibly care less about that man's opinion. He's a misogynist manchild and I don't want to hear him speak on anything, never mind reylo or Rey.

It's ironic he doesn't realise that JJ is the one who treated him and his character like shit, but I struggle to have a lot of sympathy for him when he's been nothing but unprofessional and lashing out at either the wrong people or people who have no power (the fans).

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that's so funny... I always read Kylo Ren's line as his saying that where Rey comes from doesn't matter to him at all, which is a line that has extra metatextual meaning that to him she doesn't need to be a Skywalker to be important in this story. It's a very on the nose line that way. "They threw you away like garbage" is important and gets left out of this discussion all the time; he doesn't agree with her parents' assessment, and it's really important for her to know, that to him, her parents were wrong about her, the same as his were about him (that there's still light in him), that it was right for him to strike his dad down, so it's doing a lot of important character work; like earlier we already had Rey jealous of Kylo's relationship with Han, now we have Kylo trying to soothe her in the reverse, and also self-soothe by extension.

It also tickles me because Rey is a scavenger, so he's speaking her language. He's found treasure. And she's found a treasure in Kylo that has been abandoned and besmirched. It feels oddly cute to me. And all of this dialogue is special because it is setting up earnest understanding, but also still expounding upon Kylo's self-wounding villainy here, like you point out in the linked post, he still doesn't think that he alone could be worth the commitment. And Rey can't go with him.

The weirdest thing about the Reylo romance is he's bare-faced and honest. There's not any duplicity. We get closest to him as a real character through her and vice versa. They expect it to be a dark villainous liar-liar-pants-on-fire romance with the expectation that the truth-telling only happens later. Personally I think it's far more interesting and exciting for it.

I do get anon was trying to say! But I think the Austenian comedy-of-manners doesn't quite fit here! Mr. Darcy is proposing to her and insulting her rank - how could he (of higher birth) want to marry a woman beneath him? And then Elizabeth rejects him! It's tangled up in Austen's social context, whereas SW has the magic-mythic stuff; Rey's perfectly spiritually equal to Kylo. Actually, Kylo thinks they were in exactly the same situation. He's also rejected Snoke desiring to kill the one who was rising in the light side of the Force. Kylo is practically egalitarian by comparison. Remember, evil space wizards, people.

I actually find 'you have no place in this story' too meta and therefore awkward (said this at the time, but I don't know how to find that post lol), but the idea being expressed is very important. Ben is acknowledging that she is not Destined, not a chosen one, not a legacy, but that that isn't important. Her choices define her, her power is her own, her future is unwritten. He wants her to understand that the infinite value she has doesn't come from anyone else.

He knows what he's talking about because he is the last Skywalker, the scion, the legacy, and he was trapped in a prison of fatalism by everyone around him from the moment he was conceived. His family feared and mistrusted him because of the blood in his veins, they failed to protect him, they abandoned him. He was hounded into an acceptance rooted in despair, that there was no possible escape for him from the shadow of Vader and he could not avoid his destiny. He wants the pain to stop, so he stopped fighting this 'inevitability'.

But Ben is a deeply loving, compassionate person who has no conviction in the dark side, so it is a constant struggle for him. He prays to Vader for help, he needs Han's assistance to sever the lifeline of Han's call to come home. Trying to be something he is not weakens him. We see, when he acts from conviction to save Rey and kill Snoke, how powerful he actually is when he is not conflicted. He is strengthened immeasurably by doing the right thing, as is his natural inclination.

The weirdest thing about the Reylo romance is he's bare-faced and honest. There's not any duplicity.

Yes, exactly! This is absolutely crucial to their dynamic. Ben is never intentionally trying to seduce her and he is never lying to her. There is no manipulation coming from him, ever. He is sincerely and earnestly seeking connection with her, trying to help her. He is her foil and her mirror. He is the only character in the story who is confronting her with the truth about herself, he is the only one challenging her and he is challenging her from a place of empathy. That's why their relationship is the central crux of her arc. He is right about her and wrong about himself.

Ben has the opposite problem that Darcy has. If Ben believed in his own inherent value and had self-worth, he would not be trapped by his maladaptive world-view and would be able to offer Rey strictly himself, which she would have accepted. The entire temptation for Rey in this scene is to be selfish and accept him anyway even though it would hurt him.

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'Old times'

May the 4th Be With You!

Thank you so much for your coffees!

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I hadn’t finished reading that!

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The line “You’re nothing, but not to me” is unfortunately one of the most misunderstood lines in The Last Jedi, and reading Pride and Prejudice has strengthened that perspective for me. The comparisons people made between Mr. Darcy and Kylo’s botched proposals were not unwarranted. They fail to win over the heroine in a similar way, and both insult her lower status with a combination of arrogance and awkwardness.

People are entitled to their interpretations of that scene, but it’s my view that calling Kylo’s proposal “negging” or “manipulative” is a bit surface-level. It’s missing the context of his prideful attitude and attributing to him a level of deceit that I don’t think is substantiated by the film. Yes, he’s insulting her humble beginnings, but he’s also being sincere about how he cares for Rey (even if he’s communicating it poorly). The word “nobody” and “nothing” pertain more to her status as a non-legacy character/peasant as opposed her worth as a person.

Apologies for the rambling! I love your posts and I just wanted to shout into the void.

He's not being prideful or arrogant or manipulative at all, he is earnestly and sincerely trying to express to her that where she came from doesn't matter, her family abandoning her etc. doesn't matter, he values her entirely for her own sake.

Ben is terrible at communicating, so he fucks this up, but what he is trying to tell her is beautiful, romantic, and exactly what she needs to hear. He is being incredibly honest, calling for her to realise that she's lying to herself about her family, telling her she is not anyone's legacy, but she doesn't need to be and he loves her anyway. He wants her to see the truth and be free, he is not negging her. This is a gorgeous sentiment being expressed by a damaged person doing his best.

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On the subject of Ben’s redemption, I find it genuinely baffling that anyone ever thought that his arc would end in villainy and darkness. Even before TROS, I saw commentators that I generally agreed with predicting that Ben would reject the light and embrace the dark side once and for all. Their evidence? The fact that he “rejected redemption” twice before. I’m paraphrasing a bit, but you’d think that these people had never seen a single redemption arc in their entire lives. I think the notion that he would become the ultimate villain, (despite the specific framing of his story that pushes him towards the light) reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of Star Wars’s themes.

His redemption is very important to the themes of love and compassion that define Star Wars. Returning to the light would validate the sacrifices that his family made to push him towards that point. Rejecting redemption and doing a retread of Anakin’s arc would render those sacrifices meaningless and be uncharacteristically depressing for a Star Wars film. There is a time and place for the “subversion” of redemption arcs (even though they aren’t nearly common enough in Western media to warrant them) and Star Wars is really not the franchise to try it out.

It’s just so confusing to me that people could miss something so fundamental of the story and misunderstand a core feature of a franchise they supposedly love.

People who thought he wasn't going to be redeemed don't understand Star Wars at all. I'm not going to hedge, because it's just a fact. I've written four billion rants about this topic, so I won't go off, but like, this was the most obvious thing in the universe. Even a writer as shallow and vacuous as JJ Abrams understood this was totally non-negotiable. Ben Solo was always going to come home.

The fact that he “rejected redemption” twice before.

What they're missing here is that he doesn't reject it, his problem is that he doesn't believe it's possible. There is a reason both he and Anakin say ‘it’s too late’ when confronted by a loved one who is trying to save them and not ‘I don’t want to be saved’.

Hot take, but imo there is no time and place for subversion of a redemption arc because redemption itself is a narrative irruption and not having one happen is simply maintaining the status quo. That's not a subversion. Even in the case where it is a subversion, even if it's as well executed as it can be, it's always the most boring option.

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The Silence Of The Lambs, 1991

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Clarifying addendum to the Finn ask: I agree that Rian gets made a scapegoat for things that are not his fault when it's clear that he tried to do right by the character within the constraints he had. Although I think he should have used the alternate version of the Finn v Phasma fight. It's much stronger and does more for Finn's arc. He could have cut something else.

Totally fair. TLJ definitely has some pacing problems and things could have been trimmed to make room for more punch on the substance.

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TFA marketing is the reason why so many (including me) are hung up on the Jedi Finn thing. It is beyond callous and tonedeaf to tease a black central protagonist in a franchise that has never had one, only for it to be a bait and switch. I will never forgive JJ for this. Rian giving Finn his own arc was a needed corrective but for better or worse the Jedi/Force are the center of Star Wars so it still feels like a downgrade compared to what could have been. And then JJ blew it again and destroyed the consolation prize arc too, because his nostalgia boner is the root of every problem in the ST. Finn often gets used as a shield by reactionaries/grifters and there's a lot of disingenuous concern trolling going on. But between the botching of Finn's character and the Acolyte being canceled, black fans have real reasons to be bitter at Disney Star Wars. And until they produce a black protagonist that they don't muck up, it'll stay that way. For all its faults, the MCU is miles better than SW in this singular regard.

I do not mean to suggest for one moment people shouldn't be pissed at DLF, because they absolutely should. TFA had weak characterisation in general and was particularly piecemeal and poorly thought out for Finn, who was obviously some kind of composite of two ideas or two characters from previous drafts which were mutually exclusive. The Everyman and the ex-Stormtrooper are two things that can't be the same person unless you really put in the work. Which they didn't.

And then, of course, tros completely ruined and shit on both Finn's arc from the first two films and the qualities which had made him heroic and admirable by making him FS and using that to explain why he could break free of the FO indoctrination. Because why would compassion be important for a main character in a Star War?

It's just very frustrating that so much anger is misdirected at TLJ/Rian when the things people have a problem with are from TFA or, indeed, the marketing for TFA.

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Sometimes I get the impression that people in the fandom believe that Finn becoming/being a Jedi would fix everything about his character arc. It’s an idea that’s treated like a healing balm that could soothe the irritation that his bungled arc elicits. Part of me understands the desire to buy in to that belief, but the rest of me knows that the problems with Finn’s character are far from skin-deep.

He doesn’t necessarily need to be force sensitive or be the main Jedi to be a great character. To me, the concept a rebel stormtrooper is more unique on its own than any of the Jedi we’ve seen. As we witnessed with TROS, Finn being revealed to be force sensitive felt like an attempt to appease certain fans, but diminished some of his more compelling moments in the process. All this to say, the issues with Finn’s arc didn’t start with TLJ and go beyond force sensitivity.

He very much doesn't need to be and, in fact, making him Force sensitive does a huge disservice to his character and is actively counter-productive.

And as I also get into in that post, pretty much everything his stans complain about in his arc and blame on TLJ are factors of what TFA establishes.

TLJ is the only film which lets Finn be his own person and treats him as the protagonist of his own plot. It is both comic and depressing that so many of his fans heap abuse on Rian for being the only writer to actually treat their fave like a SW hero and one of three pillars of a narrative trio rather than a sidekick.

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I hear and agree with all you've got to say (I've been following you for six years this year and check your blogs like the newspaper), but one does wonder if like-- if "this", that is, video game EUification SW, is what SW is in its perception, its cultural status, can one make appeals to Lucas' Original Trilogy (and to some degree, Prequel Trilogy) ethos? At a certain point, once a work becomes canonical, it becomes more than itself, and I guess I just wonder if I'm beating my head against a brick wall with this, lol.

But on the other hand, it's that very ethos that gave it that cultural canonicity. Being able to identify it is the only way you can make SW a property which regenerates, otherwise you end up with the slag that is CGI Luke. Maybe I've answered my own question, but I'd love to hear what you think.

I really think that if SW were solely what the video gameifying fans wanted to make of it, it would not have the indelible cultural impact that is has. The reason it is so huge and enduring is because of its bold and deathless narrative. It's very basic, but it's mythic storytelling with emotional verisimilitude and that's something that taps into the human psyche in a very profound way. The challenge it presents with its unconditional idealism, the defiant hope it proffers in the face of popular cynicism, these are the things that make it so distinctive and memorable. Pop culture is not offering stories like this for a general audience any more.

The reason why the EU type stuff can keep proliferating and expanding in esoteric directions is because they have that solid archetypal foundation to build on. If the foundation weren't there, these would be niche nerd things for a niche nerd audience. And as the foundation has been damaged the tributary constructions have stagnated and withered. Lucas's fairytale gives people a universalist platform, a shared reference point, but inevitably a lot of that huge audience is going to latch on to incidental aspects or want to subvert the story. People who create transformative works are a tiny minority of the audience and it's important to remember that most people experience stories in a passive way without critically analysing or wanting to engage creatively. The EU type fans may be the majority of the fandom (not sure they are, but I don't know if there's really a way of judging that), but that doesn't in any way mean the majority of the audience doesn't read the story more or less in the way it was intended.

But like, any fandom is going to wear down the edges of the thing. They're going to apply the lens of their own preferred worldview to it and reshape it in their own image. They're going to simplify the characters and make the themes less challenging because that makes it easier to have the fun they want to have with their fanworks. It's not a conscious process, but a big group processing something is going to make that thing more generic in aggregate.

I don't think we should take what's popular in transformative fandom (and the old EU was simply a curated transformative fandom) as a comment on what a work means to its cumulative audience or what its cultural legacy is. Probably it's not really controversial to say that the most iconic single element of SW is the revelation of Vader's identity as Luke's father, and thus grappling with the implications of that will always be at the forefront of our collective perception of the story. No matter how much lorebros and Force kata people muddy the waters, the inescapable moral challenge at the heart of the saga remains THE thing everyone knows about it.

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A few years ago, I was discussing The Last Jedi with a classmate and he said something like “It was a good movie, just not a good Star Wars movie”. At the time, I chalked it up to the fact that he was a teenage boy who was probably parroting the vague and irritating criticism that the movie faced at the time. Years later, I began to think about that moment more and more. Despite hearing that critique so many times, hearing it from him made me reflect on the concept of “getting” Star Wars and what fans perceive as “getting” Star Wars.

What the last few years (and the stream of post-TROS shows) have taught me, is that a large portion of fans don’t actually get what Star Wars is. The same is true for those who are currently planning the future of the franchise. They don’t see the value in the mythical framework of the series or care to understand it, it seems like they overlook it entirely. They’re so consumed by the fidelity to “the lore” that they can’t take step back and see the (mythical) elements that drew them to the story in the first place. It feels a bit arrogant of me to say that, but it’s a feeling that’s been bothering me.

Yes, part of the core of the problem is that even the people who actually like SW that DLF hired seem to be mostly fans of the old EU who are fundamentally unconcerned with what SW is actually about. People who prioritise 'lore' and minutiae, who think trivia is worldbuilding or that 'worldbuilding' is what defines the GFFA.

Whereas what actually defines the GFFA is the themes ('love people, that's all Star Wars is' -George Lucas). The universe exists to tell the story and the story exists to communicate the themes. It is character-driven, not plot or setting driven. Things making emotional sense is the only thing that matters in the OT, the logistics are irrelevant and incidental. It's not sci-fi and never has been, there is no interest in explaining the rules of the technology or codifying the Force into a structured system. There is no exploration of the relationship of society with technology because this is an epic fantasy story focussing on the conflict going on in the human spirit between selfishness and love; it's about the coming of age of an individual where the entire setting is established to facilitate that. SW is a story about individuals and their journey to ethical adulthood.

TLJ is written to the mythic archetype and themes of SW, its basic narrative shape is absolutely textbook exactly what anyone who understands literary criticism should have expected. It is exactly what a SW sequel to TFA should and needed to be. Which is why so many people doing that kind of analysis were able to accurately predict its main story beats.

The lore fans who want 'realism', video game power system Force magic, and the kind of moral ambiguity which is foundationally incompatible with SW are not fans of the story, they are fans of the trappings. These are the people who dismiss Vader's redemption as a unforunate incidental that 'everyone' can ignore because the rest of RotJ is good (paraphrase of an actual post I saw).

THE moral victory, the protagonist's moment of vindication, the entire POINT of the story and this dude thinks it's like, an accidental blooper that just kinda snuck into the edit because he wants Luke to be a standard American hero and not to have his worldview challenged.

I am totally comfortable saying they don't get SW no matter how much trivia they've memorised and merch they've collected.