#*even if i don't see it that way or disagree* bc you know different analysis and solid building

[cumbiazevran]

I know I’m batting at the hornet nest, and please know that if you like this character, it’s nothing personal bc we interpret things as they make more sense to us that being said, I cannot stand the Solas gang who paint him as nothing BUT someone who has the interest of elves at heart and was their liberator, who is just kind and thoughtful and does his best to help people. I do not have a problem with people who like Solas bc this isn’t a morality competition about who has the most correct opinions, nor I care about people who do that, but did we play the same game?

Destroying the world is not the revolutionary move of liberation you think it is. I think we have seen enough movies that deal with that ecofascist narrative (bc even if the character isn’t, the narrative is). People still live in the world, and anyone who would genuinely suggest this would be destroyed in an argument by people who do actual mutual aid and left-based activism. What is or isn’t revolutionary doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and the devs being terminally Canadian/USAmerican don’t get to redefine things that exist beyond and over them

Solas isn’t a particularly helpful person. Not even to elves. Thinking pitifully of city elves and as the Dalish as savages, without any will to recognise the culture that flourished among them is also not the solidarity move you think it is

Solas isn’t particularly kind. Being soft spoken isn’t the same as being kind

For a fandom that usually has a lot of issues with other characters being used as BioWare mouth pieces (which is honestly understandable and I’m not jabbing at bc me too bestie), a lot of people in this fandom seem to be okay with Solas being one of the most blatant mouth-pieces there is

A person who laments hurting you, and saying he doesn’t want to hurt you, and how he wish he wasn’t hurting you, and who has the space to STOP and DOESN’T is you know. not someone who’s particularly interested in listening to other people

This is the guy who killed his best friend because he had the audacity to believe that a city elf could actually better the conditions of elves who are currently alive. Which is the revolutionary thing to do

The Elvhenan being destroyed is literally Solas’ doing. Organise unions and commit regicide like a normal person if it bothers you so much

“But they were enslavers” gee listen, I’m not saying the ancient elvhen empire should be pristine and perfect and a happy utopia, but you’ve never stopped to think how it’s at least a little racist that they modelled a people after several indigenous cultures and cultures of colour and then decided that the guy who wanted to fix them was a white looking king and fallen god who thinks people who are lesser than him are underdeveloped and savage? Not only that but that BioWare decided that that very culture was going to be based on slavery like a wildly inaccurate, racist, methodologically questionable global north high school text talking about Mesoamerican cultures? That they took the ancient practice of face tattoos and decided they were slave markings? How white are you???

Once again he constantly distances himself from modern elves, and the only one he speaks kindly of is a high approval Dalish Inquisitor.

He is one of the biggest “all faith in anything at all is subjugation if you disagree with me you are committing an attack on the very concept of freedom" characters in the franchise. I fully see going that route when you’re playing with Andrastianism, because of the narrative around it in the game and the influences it has. But with other minority religions and Otherised cultures in the game? It is straight up racist to me, and sounds too close to white atheism for my comfort. This isn’t just a Solas thing, but a Bioware thing in general. Even if Andrastianism is criticised or portrayed as genuinely damaging, every single person who isn’t a human andrastian is portrayed as being Oppressed Without Knowing It. every single dialogue and investigation option is framed like this.

Also foreign liberators don’t really tend to be liberators. People who seek to free other people because they know better should be met with resistance. It is with the people or not at all, and Solas actually fits in this category. He sees himself as the granter of Freedom. Where I come from, we call these people gringos or conquistadores, so you choose.

I’m not saying you can’t find entertainment, enjoyment, pathos or whatever else in this particular character. On the contrary, as different narratives and different narrative devices satisfy different things. That, however, doesn’t mean the narrative they use is extremely skewed and can be interpreted as extremely infective in terms of what people pretend it is aka a story about Liberation.

In my personal opinion, Bioware doesn’t have stories about liberation because it does not have the range for it in Dragon Age, which leaves us with a lot of half assed attempts, but I digress. My point is I’m not claiming to know what you see in this character just because I don’t enjoy him, or that you can’t at all. I’m not the boss of you. I am, however, proposing that perhaps people should stop ignoring Solas’ negative traits and the actual text material to pretend he’s some benevolent, lost, elvhen King Arthur come to fix things while being willing to kill everyone else in the process. Again.

[thatonesongyouretryingtoremember]

(I loved your dead boy detectives game!)

Hey just read your tags and I totally agree with you with you— in every fandom I have been in, there’s at least one major fanon character interpretation that feels like a misinterpretation to me. So that being said, I don’t think it’s inherently bad to make a post with different evidence, because that’s what makes fandom fun! It also might be a relief to other people who also weren’t into the earlier meta analysis. I think where it gets hairy are the little comments like “everyone who disagrees with me is bad/dumb/stupid” that get tacked on at the end, or direct references to people who like other characters or ships all being malicious. There’s just no need for that, and I’ve seen it a lot in the past few days from some folks. :/

Games and general analysis spread a lot of positivity though! That’s what keeps fandom alive and makes people feel like they’re part of the fun. Thanks again for starting that ask game.

Actually, I started that ask game specifically to meet people!

Big fandoms are usually riddled with ppl who annoy one another, so my strategy is usually to *start* in the tag so I can block any blogs that would stop me from having fun with fandom, and whittle it down to a mutuals group so I can eventuality just use my dash instead.

I decided to use a mixture of surface, deep, and canon-irrelevant questions in order for others who use it to see multiple types of answers that blogs might not post otherwise, and realize which blogs they like. I think asking questions someone might not think to make a post on otherwise can be very revealing. Ask engagement is a really fun way to make friends here!

I think there are definitely points where mischaracterization can be malintended or even just accidentally harmful- reducing characters to either just their actions or just their circumstance runs the risk of stereotyping them or romanticizing/demonizing their behaviors, neither of which makes fandom a fun or accommodating form of socializing. Personally I take a non-confrontational approach and try to narrow my interaction, but I really don't know how to make fandom safer in general. I don't want to waste time on people who don't care, but it is hard to tell the difference between people who will and won't listen until you spend time asking!

Part of why it is difficult (for me) to make that distinction is fandom language. "ship" is a big one! When people "ship" a pairing, I don't know whether they mean it is interesting, whether they want it to be canon, whether or not they think it is healthy, whether they think it is already implied, or some other meaning, all of which change how and if I'd interact with them- and making fandom friends is part of why I'm here! I don't really have a solution here either, but it is pretty hard to navigate and pretty easy to get lost 'round these parts.

It's also hard to tell with popular fanon if people *know* it's fanon

Anyways, half of that was totally irrelevant to the ask bc I got into a tangent, but basically thanks for visiting my blog, even if you don't stay long! Have fun with fandom ! <2

(And one last hot tip! I mentioned going into the main tag before finding the blogs y'all like, but character tags, art/fic/meta-specific tags, and ship tags will tailor more to your taste!)

[ghostlynimbus]

This is long and ramble and I'm still sick idk how coherent it is.

I keep seeing fandom wank revolving around people comparing Jonathan and Billy and

Like. Obv I disagree with the people that are arguing that Billy is bad bc Jonathan also has a shitty dad and he doesn't abuse Will.

But I also Very Strongly disagree with the arguments I've seen against the above argument that basically boil down to it's not comparable bc Joyce kicked Lonnie out.

This is because of a variety of reasons, including but not limited to

- I think comparisons between Jonathan and Billy are great, and can be a valuable part of character/media analysis.

- Though Lonnie is out of the picture and that is a key difference between Jonathan and Billy, Jonathan is still (as of s4) actively being abused (and in a way very much comparable to Billy's abuse).

One of the key differences between Jonathan and Billy as abuse victims (imo) isn't a difference between Neil and Lonnie. It's not even a difference between Billy's mom and Joyce, or Joyce and Neil.

The difference isn't that Jonathan has people/friends and Billy doesn't (it is repeatedly established that Jonathan doesn't have friends).

A very key difference between Jonathan and Billy as abuse victims, that imo is often not given the weight in these discussions that I think it deserves,

Is a difference between Will and Max.

Will and Max are objects in Jonathan and Billy's abuse.

If Neil could have made Billy love Max to the point that he'd be willing to give up his future to continue taking care of her, I think he would have.

If Joyce had brought another kid in to the house, and accepted that kid as her own, I don't think she would have ever considered Jonathan's feelings on the subject or even consulted him at all before just expecting him to start co-parenting that kid the way she expects with Will (in fact, it kind of seems like that's what happened with El).

It isn't easy to love someone who was used as a tool in your abuse. It's not easy to let go of the resentment for the wrongs you have suffered because of them, even if you know that they are not at fault.

Jonathan and Will had some sort of relationship before/beyond the one forced on to them by Jonathan's abuse.

Billy and Max do not.

Both Billy and Jonathan lash out at people as a result of their situations. Jonathan just doesn't lash out at Will in that way. Billy isn't a worse person for not having as deep of a connection to max as Jonathan has with will.

Jonathan isn't better than Billy just because he's accepted the abuse that Billy died angry about.

[boysplanetrecaps]

on scheming, popularity, confidence, and skill -- responding to a cool ask!

I got a great ask from someone and I wanted to publish it, but it would be a spoiler to anyone who hasn't seen ep9, or is behind on who has or hasn't been eliminated, so I'm putting it here behind a read more. They're responding to my theory as to why a certain trainees was kicked out of Over Me and make some good points! It's all behind the read more.

fallindomino asked:

heyy just read your ep 9 post and i found what you said abt Keita getting kicked out of over me really interesting, both bc he’s my one pick lol but also bc i both agree and disagree. i think he’s closer with the other trainees than mnet seemingly wants viewers to think, in dance practice behind the scenes vids and other content that not everyone who watches the show probably watches you can see other contestants being more physically affectionate with him and vice versa. this confuses me solely bc he’s the japanese trainee with the best shot at making it into the final line-up, and you’d think mnet wants at least one to keep up the perception of this show producing a “global” boy group. then again, trying to understand what mnet is thinking is a fruitless endeavor in itself.

I see what you mean about Keita certainly having friends among the trainees -- I think that a lot of the trainees feel close to him, especially the Japanese trainees, I'd guess. But remember when Park Gunwook shook Keita's hand at the ep8 ranking ceremony? He shook his hand warmly, with a huge smile on his face, but he didn't HUG him. Now maybe Gunwook just isn't a hugger, but still. I just think Keita isn't quite as "in" with the cool kids clique as he could be. Everyone likes and respects him but I don't sense that bond, that "stay up all night talking, crying on each other's shoulders, telling each other stuff you've never told anyone before" kind of bond. But maybe I'm wrong! I should watch some more of the behind the scenes content -- let me know if there's a specific video that you think I should check out.

And yeah, you'd think for sure they'd want at least one Japanese trainee, but who knows what goes through MNET's single collective brain cell. It's like searching for meaning in a Pauly Shore movie.

buttt abt the threat bit i completely agree. i think the other trainees see him as a threat in a way he doesn’t view anyone else at all. i remember you said smth like “Keita sets a high standard even among the other previously debuted idols on this show” in one of ur posts, and i think this is a contributing factor. Keita simply has less to prove. he knows he’s good enough to be in the group, the judges know, the other trainees know, the viewers know, even people who don’t LIKE him know.

this is why he was so completely unafraid to make a super stacked team for Kill this Love even though he definitely wanted the killing part, and in ep 6 when they chose for the second mission, though they don’t show Keita choosing Zoom, in background shots you can see that Krystian, who he kicked out, was simply standing on the bottom row, closest to the walkway, and that is most likely the reason keita kicked him out.

Oh, I love this kind of close analysis! Nice work. I think Krystian was better suited for Limousine anyway so it worked out.

comparing this line of thinking to Ricky, who kicked Jongwoo out of Love Killa because it meant he would be more likely to get the killing part, to Jiwoong who did the exact same thing to ricky two minutes later, and the differences in their thinking become clear.

Aaaannnd we ended up with an underwhelming performance of Love Killa, so thanks, everyone!

this isn’t me hating on any of them ofc, it’s a good strategy. but it’s a strategy that Keita isn’t using, partially because he is literally just that kind, but also because he doesn’t feel that pressure to prove everything he has the way most of the other trainees do.

Totally agree. It's kind of like what I was saying about how Matthew leads from a place of anxiety, while Keita leads from a place of confidence. It doesn't enter Keita's mind to scheme because he knows he has the goods. I think that this might contribute to his comparative lack of super close, emotionally bound friends -- you bond with people who you feel a connection to, and maybe it's hard for people to feel that connection with someone who doesn't seem to experience the same frustrations and difficulties that they do. But again, maybe I'm wrong.

and yeah, considering that there were two yuehuas on over me team as well, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that they made a plan to vote out the members they felt would be the biggest threats to them, position-wise, and any friendships made on the show def pale in comparison to years spent training tgt. i just thought it was rlly interesting cause all last week i was curious to see how ppl ended on their new teams (i did get spoiled lol) and after watching and thinking it over, it makes tons of sense. your recaps are always interesting reads, and i look forward to the performance specific ones !!

Thanks so much! Back atcha, friendo!

[fantomette22]

(Do not respond if it makes you uncomfy, reading is enough) I am late for the party but IMO it is really hypocritical when people say you can't ship ghrmria if traditionally mourning dolls were made for children and then turn around and ship mria with a woman who addresses her as her superior and is a victim of nasty experiments mria is covering up. Everyone only bothers with nuance instead of just letting people enjoy things when it is the ship they dislike.

Hello anon! Ah I know what post you read hehe (it resume really well the situation!) Thanks for the support as well ! Some people (one person in that case, can really be hypocrite yes).

I want to talk about this. I mean it's been a part of the harassment I got but you understand I don't wanna scream it out loud everything either. I don't wanna discuss some stuff publicly either so I will keep it to the essential. And well I hope I won't get bother bc of this again. (putting the rest undercut it's a big long sorry 😅)

Alright so I never actually show the ask in question I got. Only in dm to some mutuals & friends. Idk if I should share it publicly so if you want just ask me privately there's no problem I will show it. I got tons of other dumb things too but I won't share them publicly. I'm not playing that game. I'm not answering to hate with hate.

Basically, like you read before the person "ask me" more details on my view on their relationship if I think the Doll is a mourning doll (that parents made for their children) (see my essay/analysis I made a few months ago on the Doll. I will need to update it one day XD so this person might have read it). I mean yeah I think she's similar/have a similar purpose as a mourning doll but she's special. She's not your typically victorian child morning doll TM. Then, they wanted to know more about my different interprets, AUs etc

Love when people disagree bc they don’t like you but then agree with people they like who said the same thing as you… genuine evolution ? Hm…

For real I would love to talk about my many interpretations /stories about this 2 characters (with multiple interprets contradicting each others) but I want a genuine question from someone I know / someone I can put a name one. (even sending the ask on anon but telling in dm who is it is ok too! 👍)

Not someone hiding being anon and with vicious intend. Not someone who's stalking my blog (not a follower), previously (and after) fake approval of my ship content* and harassed me repetitiously for weeks if not months because I interact some times to times with someone they don't like.

*before that I got a "backhanded fake approval" over some drawings I did. Telling me "oh it's cute and all. You're doing it the right way" but then twisting it in a disgusting way with some awful sexist comments... trying to pass the fans of the pairing (and myself?) for bad people I guess? I did answer to it but call them out a bit too. It's on private now. I might have a link somewhere (because well I did spend some times writing cool ideas I want to keep for later)

At first I wasn't sure it was the same person (the fake approval, thoughts about the morning dolls and the harassing asks). But I had doubt so I never answer it. I'm glad I did because surprise ! IT WAS THE SAME PERSON all along ! (when I block ip address it was all deleted) Like wow harassing me, trolling me and trying to fake a genuine question before harassing me more? wow people are sure fascinating. (I really want do believe in you bud ! hope you become a better person !)

I took some precautions as well after all of this. That would be a shame to go private or disable anon ask for 1 bad behaved person. I hope it will be alright now and that I won't get bother anymore.

So about the other ship you mention... at first I was positive toward it but because of a few persons well I tend to be way neutral towards it now (and it's still the main thing in a minor AU of mine lol). Personally, I think, because of my view of Blood.borne world, the healing church, the research hall... that after the experiments began on her it doesn't really work/make sense for me anymore... But I won't go bother people who imagine/interpret a softer version just to be happy and have fun ! got for it guys!

But for real the wort ship experience I had so far was in Kingdom H/earts fandom XD (love this series too) imagined you follow smn cool (twi.tter) and they indirectly punch you? "oh I know the difference between who's a friend and not if you ship characters a&b or not" 💀 like wtf sure you prefer them being friends but don't insult people liking the paring ? specially when there's clues about it idk??

I feel it's more a problem of respecting other people (& their thoughts) than proving they're not canon/ accurate or not. it's not even analysis against facts it's just how I think your ideas (and you) sucks because it's my ideas are not the same.

It’s impossible to 100% agree with everyone about everything. But if it’s not hurting anyone/ dangerous ideas just minimum respect pls. That already hurt enough people throw history and still today (but well the internet..)

I would love to talk more about the characters I love really but all this is making me exhaust mentally. Even when people are nice and calm about it I'm still concerned smn is gonna understand things wrong and just decide to go bother instead of just ignoring it.

[ronweasleys-world]

your analysis are fun, thank u for answering! sorry if i keep sparring, i just like talking abt it and i liked ur take, even if i kinda disagree. that analysis of remus' "blind devotion" is completely fanmade —for example, remus had no trouble refusing a teacher's position until dumbles offered him wolfsbane in exchange, sth that shows more how desperate remus was for a respite of his condition than anything else— and it's set upon a flawed premise: remus isn't blind to his friends' flaws. he does see them and he knows they're wrong, and it's implied that he even called them out sometimes and he did reign them in a bit. i doubt he'd do the same to dumbledore, but that's not out of blindness, but out of respect for dumbledore and an intimate knowledge of what blind mistrust (which is what harry tends to do and what remus is answering to when he talks about trusting snape bc dumbledore trusts him) can lead to in a war. ultimately, people tend to criticize remus for not going against dumbledore when there was no reason for him to do so (he didn't know of dumbledore's more questionable plans and people's dislike of dumbledore tends to get in the way of how he'd be perceived in-universe without that book 7 reveal), especially in the context of a war that dumbledore's leading. how he acts regarding dumbledore is no different from slughorn, the weasleys, the guests at the wedding in book 7 or any other character, regardless of his personal history with the man. not to say it wouldnt be interesting to explore, but it's not something that defines his character or the choices he makes (as shown in the fact that remus only being allowed to attend hogwarts bc of dumbles is barely mentioned in the books while we have hagrid to exemplify what blind devotion towards dumbledore because of what he did for someone looks like).

Nah keep sparring I love it.

I suppose fanon does have a way of influencing, I guess i've read too much fan-fiction. I can see how I have mixed up respect and blindness, respect makes more sense. Whereas with Hagrid, who is shown through to have a massive amount of respect and nothing bad to say about Dumbledore because he let him stay at Hogwarts.

The friends thing, he knew what they were doing was bad, I did not mean to imply otherwise, more that it would make it harder for him to speak against them. I cannot remember how much in canon Remus reigned them in, but I think it is stated somewhere that Remus couldn't or didn't want to do much in regards to it? Like the Sirius thing, he didn't want to admit about him being a animgus (or whatever) because that would have broken the trust Dumbledore gave him.

The Dumbledore hate train seems to have a way on twisting things, and it is true that Remus would have had no way of evening know about some of his, let's say dubious, plans.

The emphasis on letting Remus join Hogwarts is definitely explored more in fanon, but I still think it holds weight. Remus would have respected him a lot more for it, and I think it would have meant a whole lot to him and influenced him.

It is true that others opinions and thoughts may have influenced my opinions and how I remember the books, so thank you for bringing actual factual evidence from the books, it's been awhile.

I do think that Dumbledore would have had influence on Remus, but not at all negative or to slight him against. As you said, everyone trusted Dumbledore, held him in high regards.

I think it is the Dumbledore hate that emphasis's these flaws that people like to talk about, and maybe exaggerate them.

Please keep asking, i love talking about my interests, i get way too fixated and often don't have a way to explore/discuss them. Even if we are differing in opinion!

[petphantoms]

the abusive flower husbands thing does actually just come across as homophobic at some point. interpreting things in your own way is all well and good but as a gay man seeing people who are not gay men (from a lot of what I've seen anyway, not saying it's true for everyone), bending over backwards to say "no really they're abusive because I'm going to take these jokes and bits completely literally" it feels bad actually. I'm also not cool with the way people also tie this into scott being aro, bc I'm also aro and implying that he's abusive because he is aro is bad actually! sorry i really don't want to start anything this has just really been bothering me and you're the first to actually bring it up. it just has uncomfortable ties to the way people treat scott (as a character and as a real life person) as a gay man, and i think people should be more critical of these patterns

i had no idea scott was aro? huh! so i wont be able to comment on that fully because i havent seen it personally used as a point of discussion but that's really interesting..and im sure ur telling the truth i just. i havent seen it so i cant say much about my experience with it

other than that, yeah! like i said in my rb response, people dont tend to give the way that joel and grian and etc all bully jimmy the same treatment, where theyre Also horrible and abusive to jimmy etc, it just. it strikes me?

i know not EVERYONE who is interpreting FH as abusive hates scott or is even homophobic but it does just come off weird when people just don't seem to like... enjoy. the people involved at all. ... i enjoy some problematic ships because im interested in the dynamic and how things happened and the outcome, um. .. not because i hate this other guy??

idk if that makes any sense. id love to talk about the nuance and importance of media analysis and interpretation/representation of problematic relationships whether they be intentional or not but thats not rly what ur here for.

personally i do love discussion so if you have more shipping takes i am literally all ears, even if i disagree i really enjoy trying to understand different perspectives, which is a huge reason why i even made that post in the first place. it was a cry of frustration and confusion with what i was seeing because i had no context.

anyways everyone please remember we love eachother and to be civil and that im just here for discussion and understanding. i dont think FH is abusive personally, to me it reads as very just messing around and rough housing in a bad and unfamiliar situation (the life series is not like. a kind game, and 3l was the first! ofc theyre gonna be less comfortable).

i dont think its actually indicative of anyones personal beliefs unless theyre being freaks but i would implore everyone regardless of what you do or dont like both CCs and ships and etc to like. ask yourself why you dont like it, and where you're getting that information from, ykwim?

ok ty for the ask nonnie xx -🍄

[bookofmirth]

Hi

I'm not up to date with all the drama in this fandom bc i tend to scroll past it. But being a reader of the books before I landed in these fandoms, I'm utterly shocked about how people treat eachother.

I'm very neutral on this stupid ship war going on. I tend to fall more for Elriel. But I understand everyone's opinion. I used to read all the book analysis, but now it just seems so exhausting. I get that people love books and ship different people. That's normal, everyone has different taste etc i'm just here trying to understand why we need to bring other human beings down in order to push our own narrative.

Since when is it okay to do that???? Can't we have a normal conversation without sending death treats?

I normally don't really respond to anything that involves drama. But these last couples of months have gotten me to dislike the books more and more solely because of these, may I call them blandly, horrible people.

And i'm very sad to have to admit that i'm also getting sick of the art of the multiple ships. Which that's horrible because I love what all these amazing artists create. But the hate they receive and the comments just make me hate it all more,this whole fandom with all these toxic people ruining it for me personally.

Can't we all just agree that we like these books, and respect eachother as human beings, no matter what everyone else thinks? And maybe wait and see what the author writes? In the end it are still her books and she will have the final say in everything.

I wish SJM would release the next book sooner so all this hate would stop, then again i don't know if it will stop. They will likely continue and probably bother SJM too...

Thank you for listening to me ranting, you always seem very nice to people with different opinions, so I thought i might as well rant a bit too.

Have a lovely day!!

Hello! Thank you for this message! I think it's really helpful for people to see because they can see the impact of the things they are doing and saying in the fandom. There are a lot of people who feel comfortable being vocal in the fandom, but I gotta say, if I were just joining now, I'm not sure that would be me. I wonder how many people walk in, take a look around, and walk the fuck back out. I probably would.

I got on my soap box a little bit because I was thinking about some of the things you've said!

I was just talking with some friends, some of whom I've been in the fandom with since 2017, some who are newer. And we all 1000% agree with you. It's so, so frustrating that the fandom has gotten so nasty to the point where we've become so separated from each other that we can't have a single civil conversation. Where people of color don't feel safe, and where a lot of the fandom doesn't even seem to care about that.

When I first joined the fandom, there were definitely people who shipped one way and people who shipped another, but we were still able to have conversations with each other. There would be these really, really long posts that were chains of people commenting on posts and reblogging, then someone adding on their thoughts, then op would respond, etc. Yeah, the posts were super long to scroll through, but there was so much engagement, ya know? And it was genuine, too. We could disagree or say "hey OP I like this point, but have you thought of X?" And it was great! (I even have a tag for it, #long post tag, because I once got an anon who was annoyed at how long my conversations with people would be 💀so I made that tag for people who wanted to block those posts.)

I'm not going to pretend it was perfect - there were definitely people I didn't get along with. But that wasn't a fandom thing, that was just a personality thing. And I never in a million years expected those people to fly off the handle and start attacking me anon, or to ss my posts to make fun of elsewhere. Now, that's a constant fear hanging over everyone's heads.

It has created an extreme echo chamber. I would genuinely like having those old fandom discussions where people would comment - in the open, on reblogs - and then we could all engage in that discussion in public. Now, all of that discussion happens in private, in groupchats and Discord. And don't get me wrong, Discord is super fun. But it also means that 1) people who aren't in those groups have no idea wtf is going on when we vague, although I try not to do that anyway, and 2) when people are in those groups they egg each other on to be worse and worse. Worse than they would have been if they were on their own and didn't feel like they had a group of people there to support their asshole behavior. tbh, I have to check myself sometimes and think, "would I do this if I hadn't just gotten into a rant conversation with friends on Discord?"

And what you said about fan art, it's so frustrating!!! Since when did fan art become a battle ground??? Since when did the appearance of fan art = a win for one ship or the other?? Why can't the comments of those arts ever just be nice and appreciative of the work someone has put into it? Honestly, it makes me paranoid to write fanfic, too! I mean, is that next???

I totally agree with you that we should be able to respect each other as people. We used to be able to do that. I hate to admit it, but I have so many people blocked now because I just don't trust them. I don't trust them to be civil, I don't trust them to be able to see my posts, I don't trust them to even read what I've written without misconstruing everything I've said.

I'm not sure if people realize that there is a big difference between this:

I don't like X ship

And this:

People who like X ship are delusional

The first one is okay! It's normal! Like you said, we all have feelings and interpretations and stuff we would prefer to see or not see!

The second one, not okay! Stop insulting people, people!!!!

The idea of engaging in a normal, healthy debate with a huge portion of the fandom is such a foreign concept to me at this point, and it never used to be. There could be a lot of reasons for this. And I always try to avoid pointing fingers because I know that not everyone is like that, though I'm sure I have slipped into that from time to time.

I think it would help if we stop seeing each other as a gwynriel or an elucien or an elriel, and start seeing each other as individuals. When acosf first came out, I started noticing a trend where people would send me asks and write them as if they were writing to every single person who ships elucien, or as if they were writing to every single person who holds a certain opinion about Azriel. It was really confusing at first, and I'm gonna request that the fandom stop doing that altogether, to everyone. If you want to engage with someone, engage with that person, not your idea of who they are and what they think.

I'm down for conversations where we talk about the series and what might come next as possibilities, because that's all this is, so far. Anyone who says that "X thing will never happen" is making some bold claims, and it's really off-putting to people who know that that's not why we are here. It's not a contest where we "win" canon. It's fandom, where we talk about what we like and what we don't like and what we want and cross our fingers and hope.

EDIT I wanted to add on one thing - a lot of this behavior is incredibly shocking and disgusting and I think that we, as a fandom, need to be better at 1) calling it out, and 2) not assuming that whoever did X horrible thing represents all people from that corner of the fandom.

I hope that you have a lovely day as well! And that the fandom doesn't get you too down. @heleencollier

[shaymiens]

long saige and fandom take under the cut oh boy

imma be real, i haven't watched a sm/osh video in like a year and a half so i barely know anything about saige. but the moment she stepped on screen i knew people would make it weird, specifically with courtney, because like.... one outgoing pretty white girl is one thing, but a second one is a threat to the ecosystem, right? maybe people don't think they view it that way, but i think that urge to protect/defend the norm can subconsciously trickle into the over-critical analysis of newer members. it happened with boze, and hell, it happened with the traditional squad when they first popped on the scene.

but of course there are people who dislike saige for other "more valid" reasons (none of which i would know or have an opinion on bc again. i haven't watched a sm/osh vid in a hot sec), or for no reason at all. and that's fine! people are allowed to dislike whoever and whatever they want. they don't need to have ~valid~ reasons for disliking someone. they don't even need to have correct/factual reasons for disliking someone. you can try to make someone more informed or more empathetic towards some other person, but ultimately you can't make them like them. that's smthn they gotta work to do themselves if they're invested in it. and i think that's where some of the saige-defenders get a little off-kilter, bc while yes, there is a lot of misogyny and needless hate towards newer (female) members, you can't assume that the people who dislike your faves are inherently and intentionally problematic, nor can you attack them for having differing opinions.

i think the fault lies in both sides of this weird argument. main tagging hate (for a lack of a better word) is sorta rude and corny, and i don't think you can be surprised when smoshblr calls you out on it. likewise, attacking people and being passive aggressive towards those who dislike your faves in an attempt to defend them and cast away "bad fans" probably does more harm than good. (though again, on the other hand, if you're gonna publicly dish it out, you should probably be able to take it, right? lmao)

not to hit yall with the aS i GeT oLdEr cliche, but really, as i drift along the boundaries of the smo/sh fandom and distance myself from my Peak Discourse Days, i realize that sometimes the best thing to do when it comes to smo/sh and most online fandoms is to just... disagree in silence? it feels good to get things off your chest, and yeah, in an ideal youtuber-viewer relationship, maybe sm/osh would listen to our concerns about questionable members and shady business practices. sometimes they do. but most of the time they don't. it is a symbiotic relationship, but smo/sh doesn’t necessarily see it that way.

ultimately smo/sh owes us nothing. they're not gonna change how they run their shit bc you said you dislike one of their members. they're also not gonna thank you for defending them in a petty argument on the internet. no matter how long we've been in the fandom or how loud we've made ourselves heard... sm/osh isn't gonna fuck you! and i've learned that if there's something about sm/osh that you dislike or you want changed or acknowledged, you'd be better off quietly distancing yourself from the content and silently judging certain people and decisions, instead of loudly and publicly advocating for any legitimate change. *shrug*

those are my two cents. tldr: stop being assholes in the main tags and at least learn to be a judgemental asshole in private lmao

[kaypeace21]

i LOVE your analysis especially byler ones so please don't take this as hate, it's the last thing i want to do. but while i love the byler theories do you actually think the duffers are smart enough to realize the potential/brave enough to follow through on the relationship. bc tbh i think our viewpoint is skewed i don't think anyone but byler shippers see the canon possibility. and also it really seems like m/leven is going to be endgame? just wanted to know more of your thought process

Even if byler never happens- I’m 100% sure mileven won’t be endgame XD. Regardless of byler, Mike and El are just not going to happen. (Even if they’re ‘dating’ in s4). I could try to explain the reasons why I think byler will be endgame though. I’ll give the cliffnotes version. This will probably be a mess- because focusing on all the reasons isn’t as good as analyzing , each reason as it’s own separate post, in depth). 

Why mileven isn’t endgame

- The duffers said, while filming ST, El was supposed to die in s1 (glad that didn’t happen). And this was also their plan when pitching their show ‘Montauk’ (later retitled ST), saying that the hypothetical  s2 sequel would be about the boys returning to their town 10 years later. Mileven was never ‘planned end-game’. They also describe mileven kissing but never mention the word ‘love’ like how Jancy was described in the Montauk pitch. Nancy’s bio says “ she will experience love for the first time.”  But when they describe mileven, they say, “If Mike is the Elliot of our show, Eleven is our “E.T.” Like that’s … not romantic, Duffers. And if it was supposed to be … WTF did you guys watch the same film? 0-O

- In the byler centric s2, the Duffers kept mileven separated. And the mileven kiss wasn’t written in the show. Millie pretty much said “they had to do it.” Much to Matt’s confusion but then the Duffers agreed. And used ‘every breath you take’ (a song about divorce), and just by coincidence their 2nd back-up  song was also a song about a divorce? Nah, they were trolling.

- Most of the women (Nancy & Max) in the show critique Mileven saying Mike treats her as if she’s stupid, can’t take care of herself, or as she is a possession. 

-in the first ep of s3 almost all the guys (who had/have gfs) Hopper, Lucas, and Dustin all criticize the mileven relationship and think it’s unhealthy.

Hopper says “ They’re spending entirely too much time together… It is constant.It is constant! Okay? That is not normal, that is not healthy! ”

Lucas mocks Mike, saying “ Oh El, I wish we could make out forever and never hang out with any of our friends.”

Dustin says when they flake on him, “It’s bullshit, I just got home!” (insert Nancy calling Stancy ‘bullshit’)

and before this  Dustin talks about Romeo & Juliet (while mileven is out of frame). R&J is all about the dangers of not knowing the difference between love and infatuation. Juliet after Romeo is banished just complains about how in love/sad she is but never pursues looking for him (sound familiar)? R&J claimed that they were in love with each other after knowing each for a few days and deciding to get married-sabotaging the closest relationships they had with their friends/family (all in the name of ‘true love’) . Similarly Mileven thought they were in love after only a week of knowing each other, and the second they are reunited they start dating and spend all their time with each other. El is allowed out of the house (and her friends are allowed to visit), but El hasn’t interacted with Max nor Will? They spend almost everyday in her room just making out. Mike puts very little effort into integrating her into his life or as part of the group. The only time they go out- is for Mike to show off El to Dustin like a possession- then before El can even do the boding activity with the group (with the radio tower)- Mike convinces her to leave to make out. They are both complicit in this and they both bring out the worst in each other and they make each other blinded to their loved ones’ feelings.

- El literally asks Max “How do I know what I like?” Do I have to explain why this could be problematic? She even says “I don’t know”, when Max asks if Mike is a good kisser.You can call me ‘ableist’ my abused-autistic ass will disagree. But El is not ready for a romantic relationship! it makes perfect sense for El to be confused by the distinctions of romantic, platonic, and familial love- when the first 12 years of her life she didn’t receive any form of love , PERIOD! And she is not like normal abuse victims (she has never had proper socialization with peers her own age or even adults).All she had was television. She latches herself on to anyone who is kind to her (something I used to do). Without Mike she used Max as a replacement almost immediately, and even starts repeating/mirroring the things she says (specifically coping phrases from her …over 6 times!). She’s also susceptible to doing what others say or want her to do, “dumping his ass” (with Max’s validation and encouragement). El might love Mike but I don’t think it’s romantic, she latched on to the first person that was kind to her. Before their first kiss she asked Mike “Will you be like my brother?” And she’s hurt when he says “no”, asking “Why not?”. He then kisses her (she watches a lot of soap operas and she assumes it must be ‘romantic love’). You’re telling me that if she was ‘in love’ with Mike she would have been that happy over dumping him? I’m not saying El is dumb for not being able to discern these things (I think people without such backgrounds may still struggle with this concept). But it makes perfect sense for El to be confused by the distinctions of various loves or even the differences between ‘crushes’ , ‘physical attraction’ and ‘romantic love’ 

- In the last ep El asks about what he said at the cabin to Max, specifying “you talked about your feelings?”. He says and I QUOTE “Oh! Oh, yeah that.Man, that was so long ago. Um…”  and starts to scratch his head. Then he excuses what he said at the cabin, saying it was “in the heat of the moment stuff and we were arguing… I don’t actually remember. What did I say exactly?”  

Now either he legitimately forgot! Or he lied! You know the thing that broke them up in the first place! The one thing that El holds as her most important value in life- honesty. And he lied- about something as important as his romantic feelings?!  Make up any excuse (about being shy/character flaws all you want), but this isn’t real life- it’s fiction (everything is done for a narrative purpose). That wasn’t an accident ( mileven wasn’t “written out of character”- like milevens claim,  the duffers were criticizing the ship on purpose) .And the fact he lied again! Wouldn’t bode well for a long term relation with each other. The whole season, criticized their romantic relationship ! That wasn’t a coincidence neither was the fact he looked confused by her confession, and kept his eyes open the whole time and didn’t kiss her back . 

And as she smiled and walked away, he looked confused. That wasn’t a directing mistake, like so many milevens are claiming! You really think they wouldn’t make sure their ‘fav ship’ didn’t have a good final kiss? 

 Especially since it was right after a romantic Jancy scene (which was directed amazingly)- where Nancy even mentions Mileven- to make us compare the 2 pairings romantic scenes even more. 

* I know I sound like an assh*le but I’m just annoyed. I’ve always censored my byler posts trying not to offend/criticize mileven. I never cross tagged my byler meta with the hashtag mileven (never will, cause it’s rude). But (without sounding pompous) my byler posts generally gets reblogged a lot- and now the milevens have seen my posts (and are sending lots of hate my way) and worst of all they’ve invaded the byler tag. Today I saw 2 posts in the byler tag saying. “We’re delusional” and “stupid”- and also in the same posts they say they “feel attacked” by us.Um… there’s a difference between byler shippers privately criticizing a ship without bothering mileven shippers (and only tagging it byler) . Versus Mileven shippers  tagging things byler (and ranting about the ship and it’s shippers). Loved the comment about how Mike can’t be bi cause “he loves El too much”.I think Mike is probably gay and in denial. But, um that’s not how being bi works- didn’t know  bi people love women and men ½ as much as the gays/straights. Thanks for informing me (rolls eyes for eternity).So kid-gloves off, nothing left to lose! Time to compare the ships.

‘The breakup’ vs ‘fight’ parallel

comedic vs dramatic! The casual sunny day vs the dramatic framing of the storm (a romantic trope) . The ‘break-up’ being a scene with multiple onlookers vs the fight being with Will and Mike only (making it more personal/intimate).  ‘Cold as ice’ playing after the mileven breakup vs the sad instrumentals playing during the byler fight. The comedic after-math at the mall. El and Max laughing, and another joke being made as the bus leaves.El’s happiness vs Will’s heartbreak.

Mike’s drastically different expressions after their fights. He looks regretful with Will, and almost annoyed with El dumping him.  The fact Mike apologized right away more than once to Will, and ran into a storm to apologize a 2nd time. But with El he just lies to cover up the first lie, and then after the break-up he just complains/lounges on the couch (not taking any responsibility). He literally says about El “Why is she treating me this way? What did I do to deserve this? What did I do wrong?”.( He lied and made her feel “like garbage”!) Then he burps and laughs about chips- and makes sexist comments. Neither EL nor Mike are heartbroken by the breakup.

But when he angers Will (by him trying to finish the game early), he immediately tries to de-escalate saying softly “I was just joking- c’mon, let’s finish the game”. But when Will just yells back (much to Mike’s confusion) he doesn’t dismiss his feelings as irrational (like he wrongfully did to El) but chases him to the garage-  and begs him to stay since it’s raining.

In the garage, Mike immediately apologizes saying “I said I was sorry, alright. It was a cool campaign.” But after this, they fight and Mike runs into a storm to apologize a second time , and says to Will’s door “ WILL! I’m sorry I was being an asshole. Can you just come outside and we’ll talk? WILL!” He immediately takes responsibility and apologizes. And he’s desperate to resolve things. And when they find him outside castle Byers he just asks  (Mike’s catchphrase) “Will, Are you ok?”

Shed scene ( “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “the most important thing in the world to me”) parallel

When Mike says to El  “you’re most important thing to me” in the pool shed. El doesn’t even acknowledge the comment (and neither should the audience- cause the words were empty). She completely ignores his words, and responds by asking him about his previous comments. Asking whether Hopper was right about them spending too much time together.

I didn’t edit (or delete any scene after his proclamation) this is how fast it was delivered ! The framing of this mileven scene was not cinematic or heartfelt, and neither was the delivery from Mike. He’s not crying, trying to reach her with proclamations of his genuine feelings. There’s no dramatic music, framing, lighting or shot composition. And El just responds and cuts his supposed ‘true feelings’ off- only to agree with Hopper and says “ she should spend time with her own species.” And if this ‘romantic moment’ wasn’t already undermined enough. This is when Mike realizes she was spying on him , and feels wrongfully violated (something she doesn’t apologize for,  saying “I make my own rules” . He even brings this up in a later episode (this clearly bothered him)!

Juxtaposed to the MUCH longer byler scene. A literal single tear falling down his cheek as Mike , recounts the first day they met. Mike being in the back drop of darkness only his face being illuminated (having him appear like a guiding light to Will). Saying “ I felt so alone and  so scared… but you were alone too” (alone together/crazy together) .  He then talks about asking Will to be his friend, and then he pauses and breaks eye contact , before looking him in the eye and smiling (lost in the memory) saying softly “you said yes, you said yes.” (cough like saying yes at a wedding).

So, after he says “you said yes, you said yes.” It’s important to mention that he takes a deep breath and breaks eye contact again, (looking down and to the side) as he says this line. Subconsciously, I believe he knows this line is romantic and he’s too afraid to say it to his face. Only flicking his eyes up to look at Will  after he finishes the entire sentence, and to gauge Will’s reaction.

This whole monologue is only of tight shots of just their faces (their bodies aren’t shown like in the pool shed scene). This is a personal moment between them and them alone- and the fact we zoom in on their faces (expresses this to be important emotionally) . And when we see Will’s reaction to Mike saying “it was the best thing I’ve ever done”. We just see Will’s face only- no music is playing and all we hear is  Will’s whimpers and Mike crying in the background.

“ Blank makes you Crazy” vs “ Crazy Together parallel

When Mike tries to confess his “love” to El he says “Well they do say it makes you crazy”… much to El’s confusion.He has to try to explain it a second time to El- who just gets even more confused, by his ‘confession’. Saying “you never heard that expression? Like blank makes you crazy … like the word (love)?”

But when Mike says he “feels like he’s going crazy” Will immediately responds with “Me too”. Mike even smiles at the comment. So that moment in s2 means more than we think, when Mike (with tears in his eyes) smiles at Will’s comment and asks them to go “crazy together”.And when Will responds back “yeah, crazy together” (who also has tears in his eyes). They even linger on the moment as they just smile and stare at each other.

Mike is in denial, and may not even realize he loves Will, but he knows subconsciously that he does. He heard the phrase “love makes you crazy and that damn stupid”, 100′s of times and that’s why he said that phrase to Will. And why it made him so happy when Will reciprocated , by saying “ yeah. crazy together.” In addition to why we see them both go from happy, to immediately upset over the conversation.The scene was already romantically coded in s2 (but the scene in s3 re-contextualizes the whole thing) . Mike thinks “love makes you crazy” , and he asked Will to go ‘crazy together’ with him. And When Will is at castle byers looking at the Halloween pic of the 2 the day Mike said that, Will cries and calls himself “stupid” (4x). Can’t get more obvious… Like look what the duffers did! 

El and Will’s opinions on Mike (Parallels)

-When asked if Mike was a good kisser,  she just said “I don’t know he’s my 1st boyfriend.” (implying she’s thinking, at least subconsciously, of having other boyfriends ,who are not Mike in the future).  But when Mike pretty much asks’ if Will thought they’d never get girlfriends, and spend the rest of their lives with each other’.Will just sadly responds “yeah, I guess I did. I really did!” Unlike, El, Will always saw Mike as his future, his forever.

-And when Mike says “it’s just a break” , Max says “No it’s not!”, and we see El laugh along with Max’s comment. She is not heartbroken at the idea of never getting back together with him, romantically. Right after they break up she was laughing, reading comics, and playing games with Max.

But Will is devastated over the fight! And out of all the memories in Castle Byers it’s the Ghostbusters photo from Halloween that causes Will to pick up the bat and start destroying everything. That was the night that Mike agreed to go “crazy together” with him. He tears it in ½ right in the center where Mike and Will are. He was so stupid to think it meant anything. The “crazy together” scene, that Mike initiated in s2 was always meant to be romantic. Not only because of Will’s reaction to the photo in s3, but because Mike in s3 says “They do say it makes you crazy…blank makes you crazy.”  Which is exactly what happens to Will, as he has his breakdown.Castle byers was built on a rainy night , the same day Will’s dad left, when Will was 5 (the same age he met Mike). And lonnie called him a “queer” and a “f*g” and forced him to do “normal things” like baseball to have him “be more of a man”. And then on a rainy night, after Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls”… what does Will destroy castle byers with? A baseball bat! The fact Will has a baseball bat (despite in s1 saying he does not like baseball) in Castle Byers, surrounded by things he loves: drawings, d&d, art supplies, a microscope, comics- just shows what an impact Lonnie’s problematic conditioning and abandonment had on him. He used a baseball bat to destroy something he loves -castle Byers, and symbolically he was trying to reject his feelings for Mike using Lonnie’s old tactics of fixing him.

- Also, El doesn’t even seem to appreciate when Mike acts like his true self (goofy/like a kid). She laughs when Max complains he talks too much. Rolls his at his jokes with the cpr-dummy, covers his mouth and tells him to stop when he tries to joke and sing, ignores him when he gets excited about talking about dinosaurs. Which relates to my next point

The only characters who’s character bios focus on ‘escaping’ through d&d is Mike and Will.

Will in the Montauk pitch was described as having “sexual identity issues… LIKE MIKE , Will ESCAPES through fantasy gaming where he can be himself, uninhibited.” Like what is Mike escaping from… being a nerd? Because they could of said ‘like his friends’. And no it’s not because they’re best friends- they even specifIed in Lucas bio he’s “ Mike’s best friend” (which was even mentioned in s1).

.In Mike’s character description it says “ bullying and near-crippling insecurity. He has never had a first kiss, much less a girlfriend.He ESCAPES his insecurities through reading fantasy novels … retreating into his own vivid imagination. The Dungeon Master of his Dungeons and Dragons group, he writes sprawling adventures with fantastical monsters.When he finds himself on a real adventure, facing real monsters, he will discover a courage he didn’t know he had. By the end, he will even kiss a girl.”

*Interesting that Mike uses D&D  to escape his insecurities about not having a gf (retreating into his imagination). While Will (who is somewhat aware of his sexuality) uses d&d to escape and be himself uninhibited. They’re foils in a sense- using d&d for opposing reasons.

So the s3 fight about d&d games has a lot more meaning 

Mike equates heterosexual romance with ‘growing up’ and his feeling for Will as something childish he has to grow out of.When they fight over d&d. Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!”, then he tries to ½ apologize only to say, “I’m not trying to be a jerk. Ok? But We’re not kids anymore.” He pretty much explains, this is just the way things are-boys fall in love with girls, get girlfriends, and that’s just a part of growing up (heteronormativity).  And tells Will “I mean, what did you think, really? That we were never gonna get girlfriends? We were just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?” And poor Will who is probably more aware of his feelings just responds. “Yeah. I guess I did. I really did.” And after this Mike rushes to Will’s house and apologizes saying he was an “asshole.”When he tries to say he loves El . It was very forced. He can’t even use the world love or explain his feelings, “A feeling … yeah, like, something… like OLD PEOPLE say it sometimes”.

He can’t even describe love and what his “feelings” entail for El , he then says  “Yeah, like something , like old people say it some times. He doesn’t even say it back in the last ep, when she confesses. It’s all talk, but no feeling, it’s just a part of becoming an adult in Mike’s mind.

In the last ep before the mileven kiss, he even invites both El and Will over for Christmas saying “ And Will too… we could all have new presents to play with and… *scoffs* Sorry, that made me sound like a 7 year old...  ”

And it’s implied in the last ep (before the mileven kiss),  because of the 3 month breakup Mike is back to liking d &d. When Mike sees Will put his own d&d book in the donation box he stops him.

Mike: “WHOA, dude that’s the donation box.”

Will: “ I know, I’ll just use yours,  when I come back. (pause) if WE still want to play?”

So then Mike asks, shyly …

Mike : “Yeah, but what if you want to join another party?” (cough- girls , the other ‘species’, or just someone else: girl, guy or otherwise)

Will: “Not possible.” (Will will always love Mike- insert Mikes immediate heart-eye reaction to this comment).

I think people don’t notice what the subtext is here- regardless of his intentions, Mike broke Will’s heart. He made him feel “stupid” for ever thinking he ever had a chance with Mike. He always saw Mike as his forever, but Mike shot any hopes of that down in the garage. Will doesn’t trust his own instincts. Mike could straight up flirt with him in s4/5- and Will would dismiss it as his imagination. He essentially said ‘he’ll always love Mike- but if something is going to happen. It’s up to Mike to initiate it’.

Mike was queer coded since ep 1 (and he’s more queer coded than Will)!

 I LITERALLY thought (in s1) Mike was queer before Will!

- 3 rainbow references. Mike in s1 in his basement has a red heart being propelled by a rainbow sign. We see this again in s3 as a drawing. Mike also stands next to Will behind a rainbow apple poster in s2. Forbidden fruit + rainbow = queer forbidden romance. Also the apple poster was in the AV Club and at that time the rainbow apple-mac sign was suspected to be in reference to for Alan Turning (the gay ‘father of computers’).

In s1:

- 4 separate characters said El looked like a boy, but Mike doesn’t care! Even one of the men thought El might be the missing ‘Byers boy’. When El loses her wig , Troy said “she doesn’t even look like a girl” to the cops. But Mike just calls her “really pretty”

-Nancy says “I thought you were acting weird, but I thought it was because of Will” And Mike responds “I thought you were acting weird too I thought it was because of Steve … Do you like Jonathan now”?” Nancy: “No, do you like Eleven?”. They literally compared the explicit love triangle between Steve/Nancy/Jonathan to the Will-Mike-El dynamic!

- Mike literally uses gender inclusive pronouns when talking about crushes using the word “someone” (3 times), and embarrassing himself because he can’t articulate the difference between friendship and romance. When he could of simply given the 80s heteronormative  answer of ‘when a boy likes a girl’.

Mike: “ you go to school dances with someone.

You know someone that you like”

El: “a friend?”

Mike: ‘not a friend uh … uh someone like a” (gives up and kisses her)

-Mike’s mom said “ What’s been going on with Will, I can’t imagine what it’s been like for you. I just … want you to feel like you can talk to me. I never want you to feel like you have to HIDE anything from me” (she even emphasizes the word ‘hide”  (which is heavily queer coded)

- when Will ‘dies’, “we can be heroes” by David bowie (a bisexual singer) plays,   “And we kiss as though nothing could fall and the shame” is the lyric that plays when Mike returns to his house and cries in his mother’s arms over the ‘death’ of Will. Do I have to explain how ‘kissing and shame’ are queer-coded . And how such a lyric is oddly romantic- if we’re supposed to see their bond as nothing but platonic XD

-his dad jokes “Absolutely not” *turns to wife* “our son with a girl?”.

- when Lucas makes fun of his crush on EL, Lucas gets down on one knee  and says “ I love you so much, will you marry me?” and literally 1s later, we’re introduced to the bullies and the idea (for the first time) that Will is ‘gay’, and Mike is in the forefront of the scene and unlike his friends he is THE ONLY ONE physically assaulted as they cause him to fall face first into a rock (like a gay-bashing) .  They leave Lucas and Dustin unharmed. Even though Lucas just proposed to another guy- which should have gotten him a beating by the homophobic bullies.

It’s supposed to subconsciously hint Mike is queer like Will, and likes Will. The first interaction with the bullies, they mention Will being ‘gay’ right after they mention Mike’s crush on androgynous El and have a guy propose to Mike. Mike says to “ignore them” ( the homophobic remarks) but is assaulted anyways. And when asked what happed he doesn’t want to tell El the details cause he’s ashamed .

2nd time the bullies talk about Will, Mike is once again in the forefront, unlike his straight friends who are in the background . But this time Mike initiates the confrontation), as the bullies say Will is “flying in fairyland with all the other little fairies. All happy and gay”. Mike was literally on the verge or tears at this comment (despite being happy a few moments earlier , telling the others to ‘act sad’ because they’d look suspicious other wise). But this is the comment where Mike snaps and pushes Troy back (because he took it personally/wanted to defend Will).

The framing of Mike once again being in the front and snapping at the homophobic remarks ( gifs don’t do it justice, just rewatch the scene -Mike eyes water at the remarks). Then the last time the bullies appear , Mike jumps off the cliff and “flies like a fairy” (like Troy said) thanks to El . Troy at the police station even uses the word “fly” not levitate.

-Mike sneaking out to find Will, as Steve sneaks in to Nancy’s. They both even make eye contact (and pretend not to have seen each other).

- they share dinosaur toys , in s1 and 2 they appear to be the only ones with dinosaur toys.

- The s1 mom hug scene where Mike feels he lost Will is paralleled in s3 - signifying how he lost him a 2nd time.

- Mike in the 1st ep being the one to insist on looking for Will in the rain (callback to s3). But he never went looking for El when he saw her through his window? Even when Mike saw Will’s dead body, the second he heard his voice he convinced his friends to help rescue him!

- You remember the binder (from s1) that Mike keeps, filled with 100s of Will’s drawings, and how he caresses the drawing after thinking Will was dead. That’s totes platonic.

- Mike in s1 proclaiming “I’m the only one who cares about Will!” Seems like something a kid with a crush might say ( because obviously his other friends care about Will). But he thinks he cares the most. He was even the first to worry about Will not showing up to school, the first to suggest looking for him while speaking to Hopper, and when Hopper and his parents say ‘no’ he sneaks out anyway (and is the first to suggest forming a search party). The first to believe he was alive after seeing his dead body.The only boy to have a scene dedicated solely to him mourning Will.  Mike being the only boy to stay awake at the hospital, and the first boy to see and hug Will. The only one to have a private one on one talk before Will goes missing. The only one who was literally given 100s of Will’s drawings. And yet Dustin says Lucas’ is Mike’s best friend? So what does that make Mike and Will?

In s2:

- Will in all 3 seasons identifies as a wizard. But in s2 Mike (the paladin) says Will is a cleric. Meaning this reflects how Mike actually feels about Will. In d&d, they have similar moral values, powers, and generally need and depend on each other in the lore of d&d. Paladins have similar healing powers to clerics, but clerics have stronger healing abilities - which is interesting since Mike has always been viewed as the protector. But to Mike Will has helped him (maybe deal with the loss of El and other trauma) , just by being there. And if Mike says Will is a cleric,despite Will still identifying as a wizard in s3, it shows how deeply Mike actually feels about Will. It shows he views Will as one of the only people who understands him and views him as a healing presence and his moral compass.

“ strength of conviction gave many paladins a sense of common fellowship but did not always endear them to others. In many cases, paladins did not get along quite as well with other non-paladin adventurers, with the exception of clerics with similar beliefs.”

“A Paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous Paladin is fallible. Sometimes the heat of emotion causes a Paladin to transgress his or her oath (of honesty, courage, compassion, honor ,and duty). A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.”

This proves Mike knows he treats Will special/different than his other friends- and unlike a relationship with El (they are still individuals who are not dependent on each other). And Mike thinks being with Will quite literally makes him a better person. Juxtaposed with how him being in a romantic relationship with El made him blind and apathetic to those closest to him .

- All the mileven s1 parallels vs byler s2 parallels were ALL initiated by Mike. If the parallels were meant to show a one sided love triangle (on Mike’s end). They would of made Will the instigator not Mike! Parallels can be watched here , start at 6:50)

-Mike initiated the “crazy together’ line- and in s3 he said ‘blank makes you crazy’. So subconsciously he knew the line had romantic connotations.

-Mike initiating the hand hold (with a zoom in shot) and in the show this is only done for romantic pairings. Also Mike being the one to initiate the ‘arm thing’ which is generally romantic. But in s3 , Lucas also does this, saying “I am spending quality time with my girlfriend’

-Mike saying, asking him to be his friend was the “best thing I’ve ever done”

-Mike constantly following Will around, asking if he’s okay or biking to his house to check on him in s2 . In s3 running out to chase Will to the garage and apologizing, and running into a storm to apologize a 2nd time.

YOU SEE A PATTERN! Mike is whipped! And is the one constantly chasing and pursuing Will, not the other way around! Before s3, people always portrayed Will as the (stereotypical- problematic trope of a) sad-pinning-gay in a one sided love with Mike. It’s like people didn’t even watch the show (and just assigned tropes/stereotypes they wanted, that weren’t actually there). Will (probably too shy or scared to- because of homophobic taunts) never initiated a single byler moment- it was ALWAYS Mike!!! If people were actually objective, they would of thought it was Mike who was the one pinning!

- Which brings me to Mike literally pinning! Mike forcing Will to dance with a girl (who has a rainbow hairclip), but you literally see Mike’s shocked expression like  ‘what,why’d I do that ?’ And after this, they show Dustin looking sad about Max/Lucas dancing and then they have Mike get into the frame (next to Dustin) and look sad when Will/girl are dancing in the same exact frame as Max/Lucas. As they switch between these last 2 shots.

the cannon Spotify playlists-called ‘Mike’s basement beats’- These are character playlists that Spotify and St worked on together after s2.

-his first song is “small town boy” an 80s LGBT anthem about living in a small town and being queer and bullied. Every band member was openly gay.

-his 11th song is ‘don’t you want me’ from a “celebrate your gay pride” album

* But queer people are “delusional” for thinking Mike isn’t straight? And are told to “open your eyes and watch the show” (that was an actual quote in the byler tag). Ok? Take your own advice, then! XD

One of the Duffers cited inspirations for ST is SUPER GAY (and what they based the byler dynamic off of).

In the Will comic, Will throws an old 1970s book called “house of stairs” at the demorgorgan. And in a later chapter Mike and Will just read together at the library (just silently reading together, enjoying each others’ company-totally not a romantic cliche).And Mike warns Will the book ‘could have spoilers’ for the d&d campaign. Also look at this byler-centric cover :)

  Peter (Will) is shy, quiet ,initially a pushover, and gay-coded.  And as a coping mechanism he has psychological-breaks with reality where he thinks of his best friend from the orphanage, Jasper (Mike) . Another kidnapped boy, named Oliver (who looks just like Jasper/Mike) is also queer-coded (but a violent-sociopath). And, unlike Jasper who actually wanted to protect/take care of Peter -Oliver starts to gets a sick thrill out of making Peter dependent on him (which Peter catches on to pretty quickly). Oliver was insistent on being the only one to ‘wake’ Peter from his episodes (just like how Mike did for Will, in s2), except Oliver calls him pet-names like “sweetheart, baby, etc.” 

And again to prove it’s queer-coded I’ll read some of the (shortened) quotes, in the order they were written. These are quotes from Peter (Will’s) pov talking about his childhood best-friend Jasper (Mike) .  

-“his room. His and jaspers room.  Jasper looking up from his desk, smiling glad to see him. Jasper saying . Something very important. The most important message, the secret message.  He couldn’t hear him . But jasper keeps smiling , keeps talking . What was the message, jasper? What was the message? The dream had been beautiful at the beginning, terrible at the end, but he longed  to be in it again. If only he hadn’t awakened.”  

-“Jasper sitting on the bed and taking off his shoes ,smiling, ‘you’re okay pete, you’re better than a hundered of those slobs put together. Tomorrow I’ll tell them so myself‘ jasper’s strong, hard body as he got into bed ,so different from peter’s. Strong, to protect him to take care of him. Jasper, who always took care of him”.

-“He wanted to think about oliver it  it was like having Jasper back again. It would disturb him to see Oliver go off with Abigail… the rejection quite painful. It had never been like that with Jasper…jasper.

-The room they shared with rainbow colors, murmuring comforting words to him , enclosing and protecting him. He let himself drift into it, the rainbow hues dimness.”

-“No one ever depended on him. It was he who always depended on others, on Jasper. jasper, who had always taken care of him. Jasper…”

later he admits his feelings for Jasper to Lola/el. Lola and Pete are plantonic soulmates. The only reason why they survive and don’t succumb to their dark and violent urges/psychological brainwashing is because of each other. Lola has  brown hair and eyes and has a buzzcut and is heavily implied to be a lesbian (as she is the only girl in the group who is not fooled by Oliver’s ‘nice guy act’. Which makes the other girls ‘suspicious’ and alienate her). Also this was written in the 70s… she has a buzzcut and is said to “look like a boy”. It’s not that subtle! There was a reason that the author whose first name was WILLIAM (was suspected to be gay/bi when he was alive)!  XD

-Peter says “ he was my friend we were always together . Jasper his name was jasper .in the dream he’s taking care of me’. Now he was beginning to cry, his throat constricting and tears welling up in his eyes .’taking care of me … he always took care of me… taking care of me, and , and … and loving me’. ‘”It was the best time in your life’ she murmured’. ‘Yes’ “

* cough protective childhood friend, rainbows, ‘best time of your life = best thing I ever did.

S3 ending (byler centric ending)

When we first see Mike during the Hopper mologue, the moving truck leaves. “Like you’re pulling away from me or something. I miss playing board games every night (d &d)”…  (the last thing they talked about was Will visiting to play d&d and their fight this season started because of a disagreement about d&d.)

Then Mike looks back at the Byers house (just lingers there and looks back as his friends leave) like how Will did seeing Mike hold hands with El and leave .  “But I know you’re getting older, growing, changing. I guess, if I’m being really honest, that’s what scares me. I don’t want things to change.”Mike , like Will “doesn’t want things things to change”. He doesn’t want his  his feelings of friendship to become romantic in regards to Will,  it “scares” him (especially in rural 80s Indiana). Right after Will cries,  it immediately switches to Mike hugging his mom- to mirror the time he thought Will died in s1 “So I think maybe that’s why I came in here, to try and maybe stop that change. To turn back the clock. To make things go back to how they were.” He goes back to his mother for comfort, like he did the 1st time he lost Will. But also to reverse back time, to s1, before he realized his feelings for Will were romantic.  When things were simpler. 

“But I know that’s naive. It’s just not how life works. It’s moving, always moving, whether you like it or not. And yeah, sometimes it’s painful. Sometimes it’s sad. And sometimes, it’s surprising. Happy.” (byler endgame)

Will (in s2) even says everyone treats him like ‘freak/ that something is wrong with him’ (purposely leaving out Mike from the discussion). And then when Will disparages himself as a freak,and Jonathan agrees but asks Will, ‘who would he rather be friends with-  David Bowie (who was openly bi since the 70s) or Kenny Rogers’? And when Will says Bowie, Jonathan agrees saying “see, it’s no contest”.

So,  it’s just another coincidence that when Will ‘dies’ (in s1) a David Bowie song (‘we can be heroes’) plays. And as Mike hugs his mom, mourning Will -  a romantic lyric from the song plays during the hug?“And we kiss, as though nothing could fall. And the shame”  (which is heavily queer coded)?

And then in the last ep (in s3) Mike mirrors this scene in s1, hugging his mom, since he feels like he’s losing Will all over again. And right after the hug (‘we can be heroes’) plays again!?  I’m not saying byler is endgame. But- WAIT THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I’M SAYING! XD

These men literally invented ‘hetero-baiting’ (with Robin & Steve) and you think they’re going to queer bait?!

Also, if Will was a girl named ‘Willow” no one would call byler ‘delusional’ ! Even the most casual viewer would say it’s obvious they’d end up together in the end!

If the witness said about El in s1 , “ same height… it could be the Byers girl”, instead of ‘boy’ (pointing out the resemblance).  Mike only meeting El cause he was looking for Willow. Proclaiming “i’m the only one who cares about Willow!” . Mike getting into fights and getting upset (almost crying) about the bullies insulting Willow. Mike only getting angry at El when he thinks she lied about Willow being alive. Mike being the only boy who has a scene dedicated to his loss of her (with the same romantic lyrics playing). Mike having a whole binder of her drawings and caressing one of the drawings, after he thinks she died.  Mike being the only one of her friends to stay awake at the hospital, waiting for her to wake up- so he can see her and hug her first. People probably would of started shipping it the second Willow stared at him and was the only one who didn’t lie to him, in the first ep! Another parallel to El!

If Will was Willow, the majority of the fandom would be byler shippers. Think about it! . Mike having s2 byler scenes that are identical to s1 mileven scenes, and then additional unique byler scenes. Mike staying by Willow’s side 24 hours a day for several days (not even changing clothes), carrying her out of the hospital, grabbing her hand (with a zoom in shot),constantly asking her if she’s okay at least 5-7 times, putting his arm around her twice, being the only one who could tell something was off with her (and it wasn’t her normal type of quiet). Calling and running all the way to her house and banging on the door to check on her, desperate. Watching her sleep cause he’s so worried. That shed scene reminiscing about how they first met in perfect detail, saying “I asked, I asked if you wanted to be my friend. You said yes, you said yes. It was the best thing I’ve ever done. (like a marriage proposal)”  The “crazy together” scene. Them being close since they were 5 vs the girl he knew for a week (but is somehow in love with?). In s2 if Mike sadly watched Willow dance with another guy , while Dustin does the same to Max. Forget it- everyone would already know mileven would be doomed to fail.

And again think about s3 if Will was a girl.They parallel the (comedic) mileven breakup vs (the sad/serious) byler breakup. Then Mike just complains and burps on the couch vs apologizing to Willlow multiple times/even going into a storm to apologize a 2nd time (and to ‘talk’). Willow having a breakdown over the fight vs El laughing and high five-ing Max after.The shed vs the pool shed scene- “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “you’re the most important thing in the world to me”, “blank makes you crazy’ (as El stares confused) vs “crazy together’ (where Willow says ‘yeah, crazy together’). Mike going on ‘movie dates with Willlow all the time’ right after making out with El. The last mileven kiss where Mike has his eyes open the whole time,  and doesn’t kiss back. And saying he doesn’t remember saying  “I love” you to El (and doesn’t say ‘I love you’ back). Right after having a talk with Willow about playing games when she comes back (the crux of their fight). Mike getting excited that he’ll be able to visit El and Willow on Thanksgiving and them visiting him on Christmas (those are holidays where family usually introduces their S.O.) Having the last scene of Mike,  be him looking back at Willow’s house, and have that whole monologue about “feelings changing”, and then he goes to hug his mom like the s1 byler scene where he thought Willow was dead, signifying he lost her again. And that’s not even all the scenes- and every time byler won by a landslide. If Will was a girl, we wouldn’t be ‘delusional’! It would be obvious writing on the wall, that Mike would eventually choose Willow over El by the end of the series.

But since they are 2 boys, we’re delusional, because queer kids don’t exist … apparently.

*S3-I’m not repeating my literal essays but they’re probably better than this post so here are the links to pretty much all my s3 byler meta.  (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x)

gif credit: 1st few have the name stark in the gifs, 2nd byler gif (found on wheheart.com- user dream_daisy, not sure if they also have a Tumblr , 3rd livelovecaliforniadreams, 4th &10th Cath-avery, 5& 6th unknown, 7-9 eggogorgon . Tell me if you know the unknown one so I can give credit , please.

[flyingcatstiel]

Hey I'm the anon who used the phrase "positive about cas's death" and uh, I probably should've explained better. I've been a fan approx. two years, I am not very good at analysis, and I don't claim to be reasonable about where the character arcs will actually go. I am positive about cas's death because I see that it is an opportunity (not saying they will take it!!!) for cas to confront himself and maybe, maybe really figureout where he belongs and who he is, truly. Outside of influences

Same anon pt 2) also, your response was a bit hurtful to me because I am over sensitive! My own issues make me feel very insecure when people, especially people who like the same things I do with the same amount of passion, have wildly contrasting opinions. It was unfair for me to pin that on you. This is stupid, it just honestly felt like I couldn’t love cas ~enough~ if I didn’t feel the same way about what his death will mean.

(Same anon pt 3) forgive me if this is annoying, asking three questions in a row lmao. I just want to clarify that I am also sad and mad about cas’s death and I’m not trying to suggest that you shouldn’t express that. This is your space to speak your feelings abt spn just as much as it is mine. However, it’s frustrating to see this kind of conflict, especially when it deals with how much somebody loves a character Bc that often isn’t the most straightforward thing to tell abt someone. Thanks

Thank you for coming back! 

Well, see, we are looking at Cas’ death from different angles. Now, after 12x23, I agree with you that (hopefully) Cas death will bring some positive changes to him as a character and won’t be used solely for the purpose of keeping Cas away from the main plot.(Lol, new spoilers came out today) This is how we reason after the fact and when we know that Cas is coming back. 

But we have been here before, you know? He had died already 4 times. Cas was mind controlled (s8), human (s9), seriously sick (s10), depressed (s11), suicidal (S12). Every single time Cas’ fans hoped to get some kind of resolution to his issues, and all we got was 12x23. When I say that I’m not positive about Cas death, I mean it was not necessary for him to achieve some change. I look at everything that happened to him before and don’t trust the show to do better this time. And talking about the opportunity for Cas to confront himself - it could have been done in any other way? Without killing Cas and plunging his fans in 5 month of sadness and possibly more Cas less episodes of s13. 

Imagine if after 12x12 when Cas almost died there’s an episode with Cas in the bunker, the Winchesters being nice to him. Then, one day, suddenly there’s a some magic thingy and the Winchesters are frozen in time - Dean while watching porn, Sam Skyping to Eileen, Mary with a cup of coffee and typing report to BMOL. Only Cas can move around, so he switches of Dean’s porn to save him money, tries to calm down Eileen, reads Mary’s report to BMOL. Then Cas confronts whatever magic there’s was, gets help from Eileen (more ASL on the show!). During this case Cas is alone, and scared, and confronting his deepest fears. Maybe he is offered something that is hard to refuse. Maybe he’s showed a future that looks terrible. All I’m saying is, IF the show wanted to explore Cas’ state of mind, it could be done in many ways without killing him. Instead, it seams that we will be getting some scenes of Cas in other realm while Dean makes PB&J for Jack. 

As a fan, I’m allowed to criticize the show even when there are fans who think that everything is great. SPN is originally scripted show, they’re not bound by a book like Game of Throne or say True Blood. And even in those cases, if the show hit jackpot with perfect actor for the role, they kept the character instead of killing him like in the book (Lafayette in True Blood). So, when TPTB say that their original character Cas is great but too powerful to be involved in more eps, they’re lying liars who lie. Cas has been human, sick, seriously damaged and he was kept away from the main story every time. The show writers have full control over Cas’ power levels and it is up to them to keep him in the story or to chuck him away. This is why I think Cas’ death happened for the convenience of the show and not Cas’ personal story. 

Speaking about being positive about Cas death. I think the divide is among fans who have been in fandom longer and have their hopes crushed every season, and more recent fans like you, who still have hope that Cas will be treated right by the show. And you know what? You may be right! If the show ends soon, they may give Cas something nice. Maybe a friend in other realm?

Anon, I understand that you’re over sensitive! So am I, and many other fans. The best cure is to keep talking to each other. And I absolutely understand what you mean by wishing that all people who love Cas could also have the same opinions about him. I was in your shoes when I was new to fandom! I thought that all destiel shippers want the same because we agreed on so many things. With time, I’ve came to realize that that is not the case. It’s a learning curve, my dear anon. Every year, with each new season I found out that some of my favorite blogs didn’t react to major Cas’ scenes the same way I do. It always hurt. Every time I felt that I went deeper and deeper into a bitter Cas girl territory. And even here, a lot of Cas’ fans have wildly different opinions about Cas as a character! Even now, my closest friends and bitter Cas fans just like me can have wildly different opinions about angel Cas vs human Cas, bamf Cas or softer Cas, top or bottom Cas. The key here is to respect your friends and not talk to them about issues you disagree with. 

Our love of Cas does not depend on agreeing on everything. 

/I reblogged Cas’ death positive meta just before this post, check it out!/

[doberbutts]

I just want you to know that there do exist radical feminists who don't think you're a "gender traitor" or whatever else. I for one have no personal stake in your gender identity; there's a difference between class analysis and refusing to allow people to be themselves in individual ways. I've been following you for a while on my current blog and my previous blog before that because I respect and appreciate your views on dog training. I don't let my politics interfere with how people see themse-

Themselves. That’s a very personal thing that, again, I have no stake in. But it does hurt when people make assumptions about my opinions/views about others without thinking to ask me what I really think and engaging me in conversation about it. I would never assume someone is a certain way just because of a label that other people had imposed on them; that’s just not fair. So now that I’ve outed myself as a radfem follower of yours, feel free to block me if you must. But just know that I -

Have nothing but respect for you as a human being and as a dog trainer and handler. From one dog nerd to another, I hope that I can bridge the gap between “terf”/“anti terf” and show you that there are in fact people who have radfem views that do not engage in the extremist discourse that tumblr is so infamous for, and also can respect people on an individual level and do not wish harm on others just because of how they may identify.

terf =/= radfem. Terfs are specifically Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists, meaning that they specifically are intentional evil shits to trans people under the guise of “feminism”. There are radical feminists who are not trans exclusionary, and thus they are not terfs. Radfems can stay. Terfs cannot. You’re not really showing me anything I didn’t already know. You are, however, taking the term “terf” a little personally if you are not trans exclusionary, considering that’s what the acronym means.

Also, terfs have existed long before tumblr and will continue to exist long after tumblr. I was just discussing with a tumblr oldie about email chains and early forum attempts in the feminist parts of the internets in the 80s and 90s and how terfs were a problem even there- this is not something that is specifically a tumblr problem nor was it ever, it’s just something that tumblr called a lot of attention to because it’s really good at picking up groups of people with similar interests/views and throwing them together.

Of course, tumblr likes to call any person who disagrees with them the worst possible thing they can think of- considering the times I’ve been accused of being a KKK member (for having a service dog), a nazi (also for having a service dog), a terf (bc I am not a fan of those animal-self pronouns), and a zoophile (bc I’m a furry) myself… and there also was that one time when I was like 16 and I liked a videogame anime character that was 17 and someone called me a pedophile on that forum and I had to be like I AM LITERALLY A MINOR  AND THIS CHARACTER IS OLDER THAN ME but w/e the point is that people like to start screaming accusations without proof on social media and like to really upscale the accusation to the point of ridiculousness when that’s absolutely not necessary, which may be why that radfem/terf line is so blurred on this site nowadays.