#Anti-Rumple

[themattress]

THE TOP 5 BEST AND WORST DEEDS OF ONCE UPON A TIME’S MAINSTAY VILLAINS

THE EVIL QUEEN (REGINA): 1. Confronting Tinker Bell - The first wholly altruistic, no-strings-attached deed Regina does in the show’s present-day narrative happens early into Season 3, where she splits from the rest of the “Nevengers” in Neverland in order to confront Tinker Bell, who plans to murder her. Regina risks her own life, fully accepting the fact that she might die and probably deserves to, in order to convince Tinker Bell to help the rest of her group save Henry. And afterwards, she even reconnects with Tinker Bell as a friend, in full honesty. It’s a legit great moment for her.

2. Atonement on the Town Line - In order to stop Peter Pan’s out-of-control Dark Curse from killing everyone, Regina reverses the effects of her original Dark Curse so that it cancels it out. This means that she and everyone else from the Enchanted Forest will return there, and she has to give up Henry, since he and Emma will stay behind and forget everything. She does so gracefully, and even gifts Emma and Henry with good memories of a life where Emma never gave Henry up for adoption. She even accepts that she was a villain and that this painful personal sacrifice is karma for her years of atrocities. Damn it, why couldn’t she have just stayed like this!? Her character regression did no-one any favors, least of all her.

3. Evil vs. Wicked - The writing for it may not have always been the best, but everything that Regina did in Season 3′s second story arc as she and the others struggled against Zelena was totally on the up and up. Splitting Snow White and Charming’s hearts so that the latter could survive, not succumbing to her obsession with Henry and being willing to forge a new type of relationship with him, training Emma in magic, opening herself up to a new romance with Robin Hood, defending Snow from Cora’s wrathful spirit, and ultimately saving the day while also sparing her half-sister’s life in order to give her the same kind of second chance she got....all of that was good and further showed a Regina that was capable of true nobility.

4. Saving “Maid Marian” - Yeah, I know she technically killed Marian in the original timeline. But in the present day, she saved her life three times: first from a snow monster, then from the freezing curse that Ingrid the Snow Queen put her over, and then insisting that Robin Hood take her across the town line when it looked like staying in Storybrooke was making her deathly ill. Being willing to give up the man she loved to save his other love interest is heroic no matter how you slice it. If only it really had been Marian and that last one not a total con...

5. Partaking in Operation Firebird - While this one certainly could have been better, with her taking an active role in confronting her dead victims and helping them move on, I will begrudgingly admit that her signing on to Operation Firebird in the Underworld and being in support of it at all shows some measure of decency, even if somewhat selfishly motivated. -----------

1. The Huntsman - She ripped the man’s heart out, used it to control him which included raping him, and when he finally defied her as Sheriff Graham in Storybrooke, she crushed his heart, murdering him. That she completely got away with this remains a sore spot for many.

2. Razing Villages - Men, women and children were murdered. Families were torn apart. Hearts were ripped out to create new slaves. And why did she do any of this? For the lolz.

3. Wedding Crasher - I don’t mean Snow and Charming’s wedding; no no, I’m talking about the time she encountered a random civilian wedding being held on her lands without her permission and when the groom tried to apologize for this, she ripped his heart out and crushed it. Killing him in front of his friends, family and now widowed bride. What. The. Hell!?

4. The Failsafe - In the case of the curse breaking and her losing her grip on Storybrooke, Regina prepared what amounts to a magical nuke that would wipe the town and its entire population off the face of the Earth. And she was fully ready and willing to use it, only helping to stop it once it was forcibly taken away from her and used in a way that endangered Henry.

5. Casting the Dark Curse - This one was a given. Killing her own father to enact a curse that would upend the lives of countless people and trap them in a never-ending day-to-day cycle of misery where she reigns supreme over them all, just to satisfy a petty grudge? It’s pretty damn heinous. The only thing worse would be enacting a curse that forcibly merged all realms together without their inhabitants’ consent and her getting to reign supreme over the whole magical universe. But no, that would be way too stupid, so I won’t bother considering it.

RUMPELSTILTSKIN (MR. GOLD): 1. His One Phone Call - When Gold is dying from Dreamshade poisoning inflicted by Hook in the middle of Season 2, he calls an amnesiac Belle on the phone and gives her a heartfelt speech about who she really is and what she meant to him, all for the purpose of providing her with comfort and the strength to carry on living a good life in spite of her memory loss.

2. Embracing his Father - In a deadly embrace. When Peter Pan is about to kill his loved ones, Gold makes the ultimate sacrifice, using his enchanted shadow to root his father to the spot while he thrusts the Dark One Dagger in his back. When Pan tries to tempt him to stop with promises of a happy ending, Gold simply replies that he’s a villain and that villains don’t get happy endings, right before literally twisting the knife and obliterating the both of them.

3. Choosing to Forget - When the Rumple of the past forces a time-traveling Emma to reveal that his son Baelfire dies in the future, he is tempted to alter time in order to prevent that from happening even though it could risk worse things occurring. But when Emma pleads with him to respect his son’s heroic sacrifice and not potentially condemn him all over again, Rumple gives in and drinks a memory potion to forget he ever heard anything of the future.

4. Doing the Right Thing - During the Final Battle, Gold is tempted by both his mother Fiona and the embodiment of the Darkness taking Rumple’s shape to do the wrong thing for the sake of power yet again. But finally realizing he can’t bypass the price of magic, Gold refuses to give in, doing the right thing and saving his son Gideon’s heart...and Emma’s life as well.

5. Unlikely Friendships - As Rumple and later as Weaver, he forges a tight bond of friendship with both Alice/Tilly and her father, Wish Realm Hook/Rogers, looking past the latter’s resemblance to his former nemesis. This friendship ultimately leads him to sacrifice his life to save Rogers from Wish Realm Rumple, even risking not reuniting with Belle in the afterlife because he now knows you do right for right’s sake, not for the sake of a reward. ----------- 1. Killing his wife twice - In a fit of entitled rage when he discovers his wife Mliah left him for a pirate, Rumple rips out her heart and crushes it.  Later, he actually reconciles with her in the Underworld as Gold, only to end up betraying her as part of a deal with Hades - throwing her into the River of Lost Souls which erases her individual personhood; basically re-killing her.

2. Abandoning his son - The act that drove Rumple into complete madness: letting go of his son’s hand and allowing him to fall through a portal to another world, all because he never got past childhood trauma and was too scared of the possibility of living without his power. So much pain and suffering followed for so many people, all because of this one cowardly deed.

3. The Sorcerer’s Hat - Everything that Rumple / Gold did in his quest to harness the power of the Sorcerer’s Hat in the first half of Season 4, both past and present, was an example of the great cruelty and selfishness he is capable of. It was particularly bad in the present, where Gold’s recent trauma at the hands of Zelena convinced him all he can ever be is a villain, and as a result there is no line he’s not willing to cross in his pursuit of absolute power.

4. Beauty and the Domestic Abuser - Yeah, from lying to her in his wedding proposal all the way to trying to force her pregnancy to speed up so that he can kidnap her baby, Gold was the definition of an emotionally and psychologically abusive husband to Belle. Then again, given what he did to his first wife, are we really all that surprised? Stopping short of killing Belle hardly lessens the myriad of other ways he harmed her throughout their marriage.

5  The Darkest Dark One - When there was a real chance to destroy the Darkness once and for all, Gold sabotaged it, betraying the heroes and re-absorbing the Darkness that was now fully charged by the souls of all past Dark Ones, becoming the most powerful Dark One ever. And he has no remorse for it, fully accepting it as proof of the kind of selfish man he truly is.

CAPTAIN HOOK (KILLIAN JONES): 1. Neverland - It was Hook that allowed the Nevengers to reach Neverland in order to save Henry by coming back with the magic bean in the Season 2 finale, Hook who provided the ship they sailed upon, Hook who guided them through the terrain he knew well, Hook who saved David’s life, Hook who was responsible for rescuing Neal, and Hook who followed Emma’s lead at all times to see the mission through to its success. He was excellent here.

2. Bringing Emma Home - Trading his beloved Jolly Roger and his career as a pirate for a magic bean, Hook travels to NYC to restore Emma’s memories so that she can return to Storybrooke and save her family, all for a love that he fully accepts may remain unrequited. 

3. Making Amends - Several times, Hook wrongs someone, only to later redeem himself by fixing his mistakes. Aurora, Belle, David, Neal, Ariel, Ursula, Nemo, Liam...the list goes on.

4. Sacrificing his life four times - First in the alternate reality that Isaac creates in order to buy Emma and Henry time to escape, then in Camelot in order to save Snow’s life, then as Dark Hook in order to vanquish the Darkness and save Emma and her family, and finally in the Underworld where he gives up on ever finding a way to return to the land of the living so that Emma can make it out on time. For Emma and her family, Hook will truly do anything.

5. Repairing the Broken Kingdom - In the Underworld, Hook teams up with the man who killed him, King Arthur, in order to help Emma. He shows Arthur his passionate dedication and nobility, making the king rethink how he lived his life. At one point, Hook even saves Arthur from being dragged into the River of Lost Souls. Together, the two of them play an pivotal role in Hades’ downfall, and because of Hook’s influence, King Arthur goes on to become the new ruler of the Underworld who restores all the lost souls and reshapes the whole despair-ridden realm into a place of hope and healing. Understandably, Zeus deems this proof that Hook is a True Hero, and thus restores him to life so that he may reunite with his True Love, Emma. ----------- 1. Taking Ursula’s Song - A meeting with the mermaid Ursula almost reforms Hook during his villainous years, but then in order to spite her father he steals her singing voice, the thing that brought her the most joy. This leads to Ursula finally snapping and becoming a villain.

2. Killing David’s Father - Hook killed David’s father....who was literally about to be killed anyway....so that he wouldn’t tell anyone he robbed a carriage belonging to King George and killed his soldiers...even though a pirate thrives off reputation and should want his crimes to be known. Yeah, I’m not sure what the Hell went on with this one. It was so fucking dumb.

3. Stealing Aurora’s Heart - In order to restore his alliance with Cora, Hook stole Aurora’s heart while she was sleeping then manipulated her into thinking he was on her side by setting her free. It was all a ruse so that he could give Cora her heart to control her with, allowing the two of them to set a trap for Emma, Snow and Mulan. His smug attitude about pulling it off and his vicious taunting of Emma once she fell into the trap only made this evil deed worse.

4. Shooting Belle - Aboard the deck of the Jolly Roger, Belle convinces Gold to spare Hook’s life, and how does he repay her for this? Shooting her in the back so that she falls across the town line, causing her to lose all her memories. To be fair, he did want to die...

5. Pawn of Darkness - When Emma turned Hook into a Dark One against his will and even attempted to control him with the Dagger, he regressed into his old depressed nihilism and became a willing servant to Nimue’s sinister agenda, crushing Merlin’s heart to enact the Dark Curse and, once back in Storybrooke, bringing the souls of Nimue and the other past Dark Ones to the land of the living in order to exact his revenge on both Gold and Emma.

THE WICKED WITCH OF THE WEST (ZELENA): 1. Aiding Belle - In the Underworld, Belle comes seeking Zelena’s aid when she wants to be put under a Sleeping Curse so that her baby isn’t born in the Underworld where Hades can take it. Zelena gives it to her out of an unexpected feeling of empathy toward the “bookworm”.

2. Killing Hades - After Hades kills Robin Hood, his Olympian Crystal winds up in Zelena’s hands. Defying his urges for her to kill her sister Regina so that they can “have everything”, Zelena stabs Hades with it, disintegrating him and finally putting an end to his reign of terror.

3. Giving Up Her Magic - When the Black Fairy tricks her into imbuing crystals with her magic that can then be used to produce the fairy dust needed to start the Final Battle, Zelena prevents this from happening by giving up her magic altogether. After having lived in her sister’s shadow for so long, she finally was able to do something Regina was never able to.

4. Crash Course - She hits the Black Fairy with a car. That is all.

5. Motherhood - Under the name of Kelly, Zelena ended up becoming a pretty great mother to Robin / Margot, putting her wicked ways behind her and raising her daughter to be a hero. --------- 1. Her Tyranny in Oz - An obvious one. She’s the Wicked Witch of the West. Duh.

2. The Death of Neal - Tricking Neal into signing his own death warrant in order to have Rumple resurrected was a truly nasty deed, one she never shows any kind of remorse for.

3. Caging Rumple - After killing Neal, Zelena used the Dark One Dagger to enslave the newly resurrected Rumple, keeping him locked up in a cage and doing everything she could to make him feel helpless and vulnerable out of pure sadistic spite, while also kind of forcing herself on him. The trauma this caused him directly led to Gold’s relapse into pure villainy.

4. The Maid Marian Switch - Traveling back in time, Zelena kills an unconscious Marina in order to absorb her appearance into a glamour charm, making herself appear to be her. Returning to the present with Emma and Hook, she then willfully kept Robin Hood and Regina apart and eventually getting herself impregnated by Robin....so, essentially, rape.

5. Helping to Create Dark Hook - In Camelot, Zelena betrayed the heroes and teamed up with King Arthur, which led to the scuffle where Arthur fatally wounded Hook, which led to Emma turning him into a Dark One. In Storybrooke, Zelena is the one who made Hook regain the lost memory of having become a Dark One in order to get back at Emma for kidnapping her and planning to kill her. She even takes advantage of the crisis Dark Hook creates to steal sole custody over her baby away from Regina and Robin Hood, who had previously been generous to allow her to even have a share of custody at all. It’s just all so...wicked.

[justmilah]

fun fact! the selkie motif in fairytales is classified under the swan-madien motif: a type of legend where a woman can shape-shift usually by putting on a coat of swan feathers (or in the case of selkies, a seal skin). just amusing to me because you can take the selkie milah headcannon & combine it with emma as a swan madien and have both of them robbed of their identity and autonomy by stilkskin men

Sorry if this went way off the rails from where you intended it to go...

Okay 1) that IS a fun fact and I want to know more! 2) I just woke up and thought 'stiltskin' was a term for a man who stole skin and thought it was a clever play on Rumple's name -- only to realize that it's...just Rumple's name and probably a coincidence...

Even if you don't give them the literal myths, the analogy (I am 75% sure this is the word I want, thanks @pirate-owl for dealing with my flail) of them and then that parallel between the two ladies is fun!

Part of me wants to defend Neal but I mean...yeah. He really did her dirty in the end of their relationship. (So did August, he needs more blame there, and I'd like to know if he kept that money or not.) Anything before that that might fit, I don't remember enough of those scenes to comment on them in regards to this motif. (And I'll be honest, my first thought was about the maiden who had to knit sweaters for her brothers, so I imagined Emma having to make her own coat again after it got stolen and she wasn't able to get it back. Basically a 'she found the power from within to be herself again after many years' sort of thing.)

Then there's Milah, who is happy at first (and in love), but then heartache falls on her and she is forced to stay somewhere she isn't happy with someone she isn't happy with. And he has control over her, with her son, with having no where else to go, and that's a good stand-in for her coat because she needs to take it back for herself years later when the pull is too much and she finally escapes to the sea. (Either the literal sea or Killian is the sea, I dunno. Whether Milah would have left if Killian wasn't there to take her is a whole other post that I need a lot more coffee for.)

I think that's all my brain has at the moment? I mean, there's obviously MORE, but gathering it up and molding it into something coherent is...not in the cards at the moment!

Thank you so much for the ask!

[piracytheorist]

Think he might need a bingo card of his own but Killian Jones for character opinion bingo, and as a bonus, anything on Rumple?

Aight, red for Killian and green for Rumpelstiltskin!

For Killian, I don't think I even need to explain. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

(In a way, I do find Rumpelstiltskin's appearance great as well. But I couldn't describe it as "cool" more like... idk, elegant and to the point. Yes, even as a scaly man)

Everyone but me is wrong about Killian, always, ever. No-one understands him the way I do <3

No but seriously, considering how many people were SO wrong when analyzing his character, and how almost criminally out of character he is in AU fics (which I get it's kinda the point to change some stuff, but when you're making a brand new character without any similarities to the original and just name him "Killian Jones"... and that happens a SHIT TON in the fandom... yeah) or even CANON fics... I don't doubt I'm in a greatly small minority for my own views about him. Especially since I was actually surrounded by people whom I agreed with regarding to his writing in s7 (and we were already few in the wider Hook fandom, and also hated by most because how dare we enjoy a version of Hook growing as a character without Emma amirite) and then my opinion and their opinion about the ending differed completely to the point I felt I was alone in the world.

And yes, only my opinion is right. No I will not elaborate.

(For practical reasons, I am joking about the "right" thing. But Killian and Gold reconciling the way they did in the last few episodes was a betrayal to Killian's character and arc and I will fucking die on this hill)

Rumpelstiltskin had wasted potential because again I will die on the hill that he shouldn't have been turned into a "hero" character. They should've let him stay a morally gray character and fucking stick to it. Instead they had him jump from good guy to bad guy because the plot wanted him to be to then good guy again because Belle begged him to. I could kinda understand his relapse in the first part of s4 but it got tiring very quickly after that, and I think even Robert Carlyle got tired of that too. I've got to say that the episode "Lacey", though I have some thoughts about the flashback parts, was one of my favourite episodes of s2 simply because Gold went like "Fuck it" and beat that Keith or what is name was because he'd pissed him off (I mean, I don't condone beating, much less because the guy kissed the woman you love. But it was interesting storytelling). And then Lacey was into it and he kept going and like, this was who Gold just was. His dynamic with Belle was stunted because even if Gold wanted to do good, he was the kind of guy who got too easily corrupted by power and simply kept going after it and Belle kept going like "I can fix him". I'd rather a couple like Gold and Lacey, where they're not the villains of the story, but will help the "good guys" because of their ties to them and will absolutely go to distances the "good guys" won't. But anti-heroes was too much for A&E to handle and the fandom to accept, gotta woobify Rumple Bumple any way we can.

If they were real, either Hook or Gold, yeah I'd be terrified of them. I think we all would, and we understand that as much great characters as they make, they have killed in cold blood without any remorse, so. Blorbos they may be, and they're fun. But real life is different.

As I said, Killian is blorbo. It's been seven years that I've been a certified HookerTM and I still fall asleep making up fanfic with him in center. He'll probably be my biggest blorbo to ever blorbo.

The thing with Killian, as is connected to "didn't get enough screentime" is that he is indeed deeper than he looks, but that was only an issue of limited screentime. Us Hookers had to pick up the scraps the writers gave us and the PRECIOUS bits Colin was kind, talented and devoted enough to give us. In order to understand why he makes remarks about his appearance all the time, you have to notice the moments when he focuses on what he hates about himself; but if you skip that or just miss it, you think he's just self-centered like that. And the writing and limited screentime - by himself at least, not when he was under Emma's shadow - didn't help with that.

I've projected so much of my own shit on Killian. My self doubt, my imposter syndrome, my loneliness, some other issues that I'm not ready to share here... yeah, a lot. He's a good receptor for that, I gotta give him that :D

Done dirty by fans?? Killian and Rumpelstiltskin?? More likely than you think! From both sides too. Hook fans adoring the version of Killian who was uwu and pure and only existed for Emma's story, and hating on Rumpelstiltskin because he did bad things I guess. And for being a misogynist, apparently. And Rumpelstiltskin fans woobifying him and turning him into only a victim who had no choice in the evil things he did (and s5 did not help with the whole Dark One manifestation feeding you bad thoughts thing) and hating Hook for making sex jokes and being provocative I guess. And for being a misogynist, apparently.

So you've got two morally gray characters with excellent dynamic both on their own and ESPECIALLY together (the rivalry between the two was my TOP favourite dynamic on the show, way above Captain Swan and KnightRook... that is, until 7x18) with fans who victimize them and turn them into lovesick caricatures of themselves and the other bad guy is a misogynist!! Because that's the only way for a character to be proven bad!! MISOGYNY I TELL YOU!!

... The ouat fandom was an experience. Years will go by, fandoms will come and go, but it's the ouat fandom wank that will stay with me.

Probably explained above why Killian didn't get enough screentime. Technically, he did. From s3 onward, he appeared in every single episode, had his fair share of centric episodes, but when so little of his screentime is focused on him as a character and most of it being the writers trying to pacify the haters and prove that he's not the monster they're making him out to be, everything falls apart. That was a big problem with ouat, in general. I feel it was mostly in s7 where that was dropped, where the writers simply said fuck it and didn't care to pander to audiences anymore and just wrote what they wanted to write. Grand example, the Ruby x Dorothy ship that came out of nowhere to placate the people who were asking for LGBTQ+ representation. Then in s7, they wrote Curious Archer and it just fit in so naturally into the story and theme because they weren't pressuring themselves. And so, considering they were constantly trying to prove Killian's honor and maturity in regards to his relationship to Emma, so much of his screentime was wasted when it could have been used more appropriately. Like, the crumbs I talked about above? Make them a whole package, and that would prove the point they wanted to make anyway. But A&E were too proud in their own abilities as writers to even consider that, I guess.

Gold was a horrible person and you can fight me on that. He was an interesting character that I loved seeing on my screen... at least until his characterization took the plunge. But he was a clear example of a bullied, humiliated victim who, once he took a position of power immediately began abusing it and holding onto it for dear life. People kept mentioning how he stopped the Ogre Wars but a) that wasn't important enough to his narrative to show on screen and that says something and b) he used it as an excuse to be an asshole and to keep abusing his power, so it doesn't help? Upon losing Baelfire, his one goal became to go find him - but only as long as he kept his power. The seer confirmed he will meet him again, so he waited as long as it took - literal centuries because he wanted to find the way that would ensure he'd have both his son and his power. That power being the very thing he lost his son for, by the way. If that isn't a sign about how weird his priorities were, Idk what else to tell you man.

Yes I am mentally ill about Killian, if my seven plus years of stanning that developed into a love for Colin that I have paid real money to see from up close didn't clue any of you in XD

I circled the "part of a dynamic" one cause as I said, for almost the entire duration of the show, the rivalry between Gold and Hook was my top favourite dynamic. Sadly I didn't get that much, and I got grossly disappointed by the end, but what little I got (minus the ending, yes I am still bitter) I loved and I treasure.

Gold got too much screentime in the manner of the whole ping-pong he did between "hero" and "villain". I mean, it wasn't like they would dare sideline Robert Carlyle, but he got too many and repeated arcs that it got tiring even for me, who enjoyed his presence on my screen. If he had gotten a bit less of it, or a bit more balanced between all characters (same for Emma and Regina, they both suffered from repeated storylines and development arcs), I think they could have handled his gray morality better.

ALMOST got three lines there, lmao. BING!

[naiariddle]

5x11: Don’t mess with Emma’s pirate. She will denounce, fight and punch for him.

[oautincorrectquotes]

Regina: Can I bother you for a second?

Rumple: You're always bothering me, but go ahead.

[piraterefrigerator]

It amazes me that Killian was kind of expected to forgive Rumple because they're both "redeemed" (in quotations only bc of Rumple, Killian ACTUALLY put forth the work to redeem himself) while?? NO? You don't just tell someone to forgive the man who murdered his true love and taunted him about it for 200 years bc its the new hot trend

I get him being kind of expected to forgive Regina and Zelena and ofc everyone was– but they didn't give him centuries of trauma so like- those relationships can be mended as long as Regina and Zelena put forth the effort

But Rumple

For one, besties why are we trusting him again. How many times do we have to do this before y'all LEARN? Killian's wary and he's got the right idea.

But they're just kinda like "Hey, we're forgiving Rumple again, get on board" NO👏🏻

All I'm saying is Killian should have petty privileges AND SNOW SHOULD ALSO HAVE PETTY PRIVILEGES WITH REGINA

Does Snow get on my nerves sometimes? Yes. But was she HUNTED LIKE AN ANIMAL BY REGINA?? YES!!

This isn't particularly anti Regina so evil regals don't come for me please

And Rumple MURDERED MILAH AND SHE DIED IN KILLIAN'S ARMS FOR PETTY REASONS ALONE so yes let Snow and Killian be petty with their abusers and stop forgiving Rumple pls and thanks guys <3

[moonbeamnights]

Ok but the chipped tea cup is actually so great as The Rumbelle Symbol (tm) because of how scared Belle was of what Rumple was going to do to her for breaking it and how it got played off as endearing and romantic and "oh he's so kind" when he didn't do anything. This cup is literally the physical representation of "Rumple gets to act like he treats Belle well because he could be worse but he isn't" and that is the perfect summary of their relationship.

[midgardianqueenreturns]

This is a very bizarre comparison since they’re from different genres (and mediums), but I have to say, My Hero Academia did “Most of the villains have a tragic backstory” a lot better than Once Upon a Time did.

[thelastevilregal]

Not to start a shipping war or anything but I don't understand people who call CS abusive but ship Rumbelle

[heddagab]

Not Emilie de Ravin giving more for memoryless Belle being terrified of Rumple than 7 seasons of regular Belle (pretending to be) in love with him 🤣

[chimerazodiac]

Devil Doesn't Bargain by Alec Benjamin represents Rumbelle PERFECTLY.

[themattress]

Leora W: Queen of Bad Takes

I won’t dignify this person with any links, only responses to her numerous fallacies.

On Season 5:

I had to suffer through what I would argue was not only the worst season of the show but the worst season of any show ever: Once Upon A Time Season 5.

Not only is there no way OUAT Season 5 could possibly be the worst of the show when Seasons 6 and 7 both exist and follow it, but the worst season of any show ever? Yeah, no. 

One of the major problems with Season 5 was they seemed to be bringing in characters or shiny toys for the sake of bringing them in without thinking about how they would affect the overarching plot. When that character or shiny toy didn't amount to anything, they would abandon it because they didn't think it through.

....Are you kidding me!?  You say that’s a problem with Season 5, and not the whole show!?  Where were you for the past three seasons or the next two? This isn’t a unique problem!

How come Killian wasn't haunted by former Dark One's in Storybrooke just because Emma wiped his memory? He was still the Dark One, wasn't he?

Apparently if there’s a mental block, the former Dark Ones can’t appear.

Or how come nobody tried true love's kiss on Emma in Camelot? And how come when she and Hook did kiss in Camelot, and she was actively trying to get rid of the darkness, it didn't work?

As wretched an episode as it is, “The Price” answered this already: by the time a kiss was attempted Emma was already thrilled by the power she wielded, which is why she waffled on getting rid of the Darkness afterward, like when she tried to justify potentially keeping it and using it for good. TLK won’t work when one party is enthralled with power; just ask Belle.

What on earth did that horse do to end up in The Underworld with unfinished business?

It wasn’t always there, it’s implied that Daniel sent it there from Heaven.

(Talks about lack of follow-through and dropped plotlines and ignoring established rules)

Again, what show have you been watching all this time!? This is sadly the norm for it.

Season 4 ended with Rumpelstiltskin's heart being scrubbed clean of the darkness and Emma Swan taking up the mantle of The Dark One. This provided many possibilities. More than anything, it seemed like an opportunity to redeem Rumpelstiltskin. He no longer had The Darkness inside him, and it allowed the heroes a chance to understand and sympathize with what made him so evil in the first place. Instead, the heroes adamantly advocate for Emma but disregard a newly pure and powerless Rumpelstiltskin worthy of their time or help. Rumple becomes a hero, pulling a sword from the stone, but he relapses to Darkness in the end.

The Darkness was never what made Rumple evil. Rumple made Rumple evil. That was the whole point being proven which was already proven in the Season 4 finale but I digress.

Killian Jones becomes a Dark One alongside Emma and embraces his newfound darkness rather quickly, despite all the character's progress throughout the series. Yet, once he is no longer The Dark One, he is forgiven, redeemed, and resurrected, despite all he did.

Because he “became a Dark One alongside Emma” because Emma forced it upon him against his will, and then tried to control him by force which naturally caused his progress to crumble and him to give in. He’s forgiven, redeemed and resurrected because of his own actions to rectify his evil actions, which are done without expecting any reward, I might add.

Worst of all, Zelena has a quickie redemption in The Underworld! So does King Arthur!

Zelena’s quickie redemption was no worse than Regina’s, and while I can see the criticism toward Arthur’s I felt it made perfect sense given his previously established character.

As for the Underworld, that plot was entirely underwhelming. Hades in the movie is a fun and charismatic villain, but his interpretation on the show was weak and meh.

No, he was still a fun and charismatic villain, just in a different way than in the movie. He’s actually a lot closer to the take Jack Nicholson, Disney’s first choice, likely would’ve given.

Megara, also, was a huge disappointment. In the movie, she was a badass. She didn't need a man, she had a complex backstory, and she was willing to sacrifice herself for love. On this show, she barely exists.

This wasn’t the Disney version of Megara, though! Unlike Hades, she and Hercules had no holdover from the Disney movie; they’re just versions of the old mythological characters.

(Complains about Rumbelle being toxic because “Rumple's story has always been about redemption” and Belle’s part in it is now ruined.)

You missed the point of Rumple and of “Skin Deep”, like so many did.

Emma, a character who we know has walls up to her head, went from not being ready for a relationship to crossing moral lines to save Killian and then literally dragging her family to hell to save him.

The line-crossing was dumb, but no, she didn’t drag anyone to Hell. It was the Underworld, not Hell, and her family volunteered to go with her, they weren’t remotely “dragged” there.

Basically, they wanted to make Captain Swan as epic as Snowing, even having Emma say, "I will always find you," the Snowing motto, on her way to the Underworld. Captain Swan didn't have the juice for that, and making them epic and tragic took away what was fun about them.

No, Captain Swan did have the juice for it. This was a fine idea, it just had bad execution.

Aside from taking away from every other aspect of the series and losing their fun side, many have described Hook's behavior toward's Emma as toxic.

It was! What these fans seldom focus on is how equally toxic her behavior toward him is. They just want a simple “bad man abuses good woman” narrative in order to condemn the Captain Swan ship, which ignores Dark Emma inflicting textbook domestic abuse upon Hook.

In the case of both Rumple and Emma, when they were the Dark One, their goals were usually to protect those they loved, even if it meant crossing lines to do so. Killian told Emma he wanted to hurt her and that she was a pretty blonde distraction from his true goals of revenge.

In the case of both Rumple and Emma, they actively chose to become the Dark One to start with. Killian literally begged for Emma not to make him the Dark One and she did it anyway. And again, no mention of what Emma did to him prior to him saying those terrible things.

(Talks about Robin’s needless death followed by an awful season finale)

.....Wait, why did I even list this? She’s got me there! :P

On Redemption Arcs:

The thing is, Arthur didn't really change. He deduces that the prophecy that he would rule over a "broken kingdom" refers to The Underworld and not Camelot as he always thought. It's the destiny he's been chasing forever, so of course, he would do it.

You misread that scene. Camelot was the broken kingdom that Merlin prophesized; Merlin himself confirmed this. Arthur’s flaw was that rather than just take heroic actions naturally so that the prophecy comes to pass, he fixates on the specifics of the prophecy, particularly Excalibur, and rather than actually repair the broken kingdom he just papers over the cracks with magic sand. Hook’s actions in the Underworld showed Arthur that you are capable of making your own destiny through your own deeds, and so he accepted the Underworld as a second chance to do something positive rather than accept any sort of heavenly reward.

Making Arthur a villain was a nice surprise, but his redemption was weak. The character wasn't likable, even as a guy you love to hate. Frankly, OUAT would have been better if the characters had never gone to Camelot, but that's a rant for another time.

I object; he was totally a “love to hate” type, the issue was that he became too incompetent to take seriously, and a villainous version of King Arthur is someone you absolutely should be able to take seriously. And OUAT would have actually been better if the characters just went to Camelot and never came back to Storybrooke within the same arc. That was the problem.

Rumple's redemption was seemingly written into the series from the beginning. For the first two and a half seasons of the show, Rumple's redemption arc was picture perfect.

It really wasn’t, and out of what you mentioned only that “a half” constituted an actual redemption arc for the character...and even then, it only ended well because his son was around to inspire him to die a sacrificial death. If he hadn’t done so, he would’ve relapsed.

By Season 6, not all viewers wanted Rumple to be redeemed. He had backslid so many times. His redemption was hard to trust when it happened. His final redemption was death, which kind of fit because he had lived so long and deserved to rest. Plus, after everything he did, seeing him live would have left us questioning if he was going to backslide again.

Thanks for pointing out precisely why he just should’ve bit the bullet (again) in Season 6.

Still, it would have been better if they had leaned into his initial redemption in 3x11 and let the character grow, instead of all the unnecessary back and forth.

No, the back and forth was fine since that was a core part of his character. It only became an issue when he went forth in a specific way he couldn’t feasibly come back from, and yet the show and other characters still acted as though back was a possibility, which wasn’t realistic.

One of the unusual and refreshing things about OUAT's redemption arcs, at least the ones they did well, was that instead of going for the familiar trope of person-redeems-themself-for-lover, they did the underrated and underused person-redeems-themself-for-their-child. Killian Jones is the exception to this. (*goes on to complain about this and then say Wish Hook had a better redemption since he did it for a child*)

1. I’ve seen this bullshit logic before, and I just have to ask that if Hook is an exception, shouldn’t he be considered the “unusual and refreshing” one here since the norm on this show is redemption-for-child rather than redemption-for-lover? Did you ever think of that?

2. Hook didn’t even redeem himself for Emma, he redeemed himself because he wanted to be better and Emma made him believe that it was possible for him to be so.

3. Wish Hook’s redemption arc wasn’t inherently better just because a ship wasn’t involved.

Later, when Killian becomes The Dark One, he gives in to the darkness entirely very quickly. He's willing to send the woman he loves and her friends to The Underworld. When he chickens out of his plan because he still loves Emma, he's called a hero. How is he a hero for sacrificing himself to stop an evil scheme that he was causing? If you want to kill someone but change your mind, you aren't a hero for saving that person's life. You're just not as bad as you were before. It's noble to turn yourself over to the cops afterward, but again, it doesn't make you a hero.

First off, notice how she’s once again ignoring how/why he “became the Dark One” and how that affected him giving in. And secondly, Regina is placed higher above Hook on this redemption ranking list, and her entire redemption was only possible because she was going to sacrifice herself to stop an evil scheme that she (and she alone, unlike with Dark Hook) was causing in 2x22! They even called her a hero for doing so! If you weren’t pissed off about that, you have no business being pissed off about this unless you have an irrational bias.

Regina's backstory was truly tragic. She was abused and manipulated by her mother her entire life, culminating in the murder of her boyfriend.

That’s a sympathetic backstory, not a tragic one. The rest of her backstory was tragic.

Regina's redemption arc was not rushed. It was drawn out as we watched the character grow, realistically backslide slightly, and then, with the support of her new family, find her way to proper redemption.

“Realistically backslide slightly”!? Did you just block out what she actually did / attempted to do in 2B? That’s why many people can’t get behind the whole “support of her new family” part; because she only got a place in that family after almost murdering them all and trying to force Henry to stay hers like a possession. This is why the whinging about what Dark Hook did that got forgiven rings false, especially when that had deeper context for why it happened whereas Regina’s only excuse for her turn is “those damn heroes dared suspect me, a known mass murderer, of murdering someone! I have no other choice but to murder them all now!”

Some have argued that her redemption is more about getting what she wants, i.e., a relationship with her son, than showing genuine remorse. She doesn't want to do better because she believes it's right. She wants to do better because if she doesn't, she loses Henry. Regina may have ostensibly switched sides, but she occasionally crosses the line, such as when she stole Belle's heart to manipulate Rumple. Whether or not Rumple deserved that is debatable, but did Belle? I should think not! There are also things she's never been held accountable for, such as raping and murdering Graham. In 5x23, Regina goes so far as to call her past evil self an alter-ego known as The Evil Queen; she attempts to split herself off from that part of herself. The Evil Queen was never an alter-ego. Regina only has one personality, and she needs to own her choices.

YES. That’s all correct! So you rank her redemption so highly why, exactly?

Say what you will about Hook and Rumple, but both of their redemption arcs had them deviating from their initial goals and giving up their ill-gotten gains in order to make things right for others. Regina kept all she gained from villainy and her mission statement from right before ripping her father’s heart out to enact the Dark Curse - “I just want to be happy” - never changed. It was still all for that goal; she merely changed her methods of achieving it.

On Rumple:

I'm not badmouthing Rumple. I actually think he's pretty great; I'm a Dearie, through and through.

And therein lies the problem - far too many Dearies accentuate the positives of the character and let that define their view of him; which is a stark contrast to Robert Carlyle’s own views.

The show had a family of protagonists and two big, scary antagonists. One was The Evil Queen, the main villain of the Snow White story. The other was Rumpelstiltskin, a wild-card that left the audience scratching their heads. He was a mystery. Both characters had the potential to be the great villain of the series. Then we learned the key differences between the two. (*proceeds to say Rumple was doing it all for his son while Regina was doing it for revenge*)   Given those two descriptions, if you had to pick someone for the big bad of the series, who would you pick? I think it was supposed to be The Evil Queen, and I think the show was written with that intent.

Um, no. Absolutely not. Rumple, no matter how sympathetic you found him compared to Regina, was clearly set up as the Big Bad of the series from the pilot and subsequent episode. He was the true mastermind behind the Dark Curse, and 1x02′s end scene screamed “this guy’s even worse than Regina”, something even Henry acknowledged in 1x08, an episode that officially revealed Rumple’s status as the Dark One. Why on Earth would some random evil queen with magic powers be a bigger villain than the Dark One?

He was willing to ruin and corrupt others to do so, but he also made David a prince, and helped him wake Snow White from a sleeping curse. He was always interfering in people's lives. Sometimes he did nasty things. Sometimes he helped. He was morally ambiguous, but the story could not unfold without him. He was deeply tied to all of their lives, and many of them might never have been born nor found love without his interference.

No. There is no “moral ambiguity” to Rumple. All of his helpful actions were motivated by his own self-interest that was ultimately going toward the evil objective of getting the Dark Curse cast, which would screw over all those characters he helped be born or fall in love. And while he was behind the Savior clause, this also came along with his plan to bring magic to Storybrooke, which further screwed everyone over just so that he could get what he wants.

Well, the rumor is, Regina was supposed to be the big evil on the show. She was meant to be sympathetic, but it had not been planned to give her a redemption arc. Then, the show got a lot of flack for being "anti-adoption." They didn't want to send that message.  Lana Parilla fought for Regina to get a redemption arc on Season 2, and the trajectory of the show was changed forever.

This rumor has been thoroughly debunked by now. Adam Horowitz and Edward Kitsis actually created the show through the viewpoint of the Evil Queen, and her getting her happy ending was the true core objective from the beginning. They even called making viewers forget about all of her crimes and be furious at the heroes for not easily accepting her redemption as they logically should a “victory” and “the greatest thing ever”. Lana Parilla fought for a better relationship between Henry and Regina in Season 2; the redemption arc was always planned regardless of that happening because Regina is A&E’s pet character.

Rumple prophesized this big, Final Battle to come when the curse breaks. This was more or less forgotten after the curse, until Season 6, when the battle is fought between Emma, Rumple's mother, and Rumple's son. Basically, the Final Battle comes back around to Rumpelstiltskin. And he gets redeemed! Yea! Except that this wasn't the first time he was redeemed, nor would it be the last.

It should’ve been the last, though.  Also, the Final Battle was a retcon; in its original context he was clearly talking about the final battle against the Evil Queen, which thanks to his own interference in bringing magic to town would also draw in him, her mother, and his father!

The fact that Rumple exited the show a hero, combined with what we know about his actions and motives from the beginning would imply his character was always expected to be redeemed. And if Zelena can be redeemed, why not Rumple?

This notion she has that Zelena is more heinous than Regina and Rumple is hilarious. 

Maybe because he was, in fact, redeemed. In 3x11, Rumple sacrificed himself to save the town. He'd found love with Belle, and he'd reconciled with his son. He gave his life for them, his grandson, and everybody else in Storybrooke. Yea! He's redeemed. But wait, he's dead? Noooo!!!!That was my reaction, and likely the reaction of many fans. Rumple was a very popular character, both for those who loved him and for those who loved to hate him. He was also very useful. He was powerful, and he was clever. He understood magic, and he had pertinent information about nearly every character the leads ever came across. The show couldn't function without the man who had been puppeteering things for 200 + years, and they knew it. They needed to bring him back.

All of this is true; just felt like throwing her another bone.

Prior to his death, it seemed that Kitsis and Horowitz were setting Neal up to be Emma's True Love. It made sense from a story perspective. However, Killian and his flirtation with Emma were very popular among the fans.  The fan theory is that due to that popularity, the idea was to get Neal out of the way so they could give fans what they wanted. They didn't think Emma could end up with Killian if Neal was alive, so Neal needed to die.

Again, a thoroughly debunked theory. Neal was never being set up as Emma’s True Love, just her old flame, and the decision to kill him off had nothing to do with Emma/Hook and everything to do with Rumple and how to bring him back and spark his relapse into villainy, plus the fact that Michael-Raymond James just wasn’t feeling the show and wanted out.

Rumple had Belle, but nobody else seemed to give a flying monkey about him. All the other leads were then heroes, and he was a man who had just lost nearly everything. As the story moved forward, Rumple had fewer and fewer reasons to be good.

Oh boy, here we go. Let the Draco in Leather Pantsing commence!

Hook chose to blackmail Rumple. He threatened to tell Belle that after months of being enslaved by Zelena, the woman who killed his son, Rumple didn't give up his freedom again. And he killed Zelena. Rumple struck back, and all hell broke loose because, of course, those children couldn't play nice for five minutes.

The blackmail choice happened because Rumple was already refusing to help his supposed family and their new friend Elsa out when they needed it, and Rumple easily could’ve avoided it by just being honest with Belle. Of course, then Hook got cocky and stupidly tried to garner a second, more personal sort of favor from the blackmail, and he rightly paid the price for it.

Once the truth came out, everyone conveniently forgot that Rumple died for them, lost his son, was a slave, and that he was "family." He was in mourning, suffering from PTSD, and he had almost no support. Hook goaded him, and Rumple backslid. Instead of hearing his side or considering there may be more to the story, the heroes cast him as the villain in their lives.

First off, Rumple had backslid before Hook blackmailed him - he already had sinister plans for the Sorcerer’s Hat, and was immediately willing to cooperate with the Snow Queen. Secondly, they did not forget about any of that; Emma brought it all up in 4x08 to show support and trust for Rumple - as he was in the process of tricking her into walking to her doom, mind you. It was Rumple who showed he didn’t care about them (aside from Henry purely due to the connection to Neal); there’s no “hearing his side of the story” after learning he colluded with someone out to kill them all and had responded to his PTSD from being enslaved by gleefully enslaving someone else, Hook, and ultimately trying to murder him on top of that, which is as disproportionate a response to Hook’s initial blackmail as you can get and is going back on the terms he had already set for the blackmail he put on Hook in turn. Rumple cast himself as the villain in their lives because Rumple chose to be a villain again.

As the show continued, they continued to take that attitude with him. When something went wrong, they either tried to blame him for the trouble, or they tried to bully him into fixing it because, after all, they're "family."

Lol, most of the time he was in fact responsible for the trouble, and it’s laughable to say they tried to “bully him” when he’s the one who had all the power...again, all by his own choice.

In the end, he sacrificed himself to save his former enemy and finally got to die. It's the ultimate redemption. And it was great to see. But you know what would have been better?  If he could have come back from his first redemption and been brought back to life without losing his son, one of his main reasons to try. Then we could have seen him try, and succeed, to be better, for more than just Season 7.They could have made that happen if they really wanted to.

Sure, but they didn’t because for most of the writers and for Robert Carlyle, that wasn’t in the nature of the character. They didn’t want him to try and succeed to be better. To them, it’s like if Walter White stopped breaking bad. Given all that he’s said about the character, I doubt Robert Carlyle was even personally on board with his Season 7 redemption arc. He still played it well since he’s a professional, but if were up to him it wouldn’t have happened.

They could also have left him dead. Let him die as a hero instead of backsliding as a villain.

Admittedly, that would have been great too. Alas, it was never to be.

Even when Rumple got his final redemption, it was in defeating a version of himself from the WishRealm. Rumple was still expected to play the villain, even when he was also the hero. This character, who was built for a redemption arc, deserved better than being tossed back into the villain pile because they needed a bad guy. Sadly, it seems like that is what happened.

No, that’s not what happened. He was not “built for a redemption arc”; that was you seeing what you wanted to see. He was always supposed to be the main Big Bad and ultimately the Final Boss, regardless of how that happened. A&E did, in fact, screw him up, but not in the ways that you’re positioning. They screwed him, and many other things, up by not having a solid plan and ending point in mind, not because they didn’t have him do what you wanted.

From this book:

And there you have it...dearie.

[dylanconrique]

do people really ship rumpbelle?? i have to know.

[just-an-enby-lemon]

Some random notes about an OUAT queer rewrite fic I will never write, but have been planning since I was ten:

- Everything is campy and dorky but also angst.

- SwanQueen is the main ship. Emma and Regina are destined for each other.

- Cora is the worst and main bad guy, spread the news.

- Instead of the weird plot twist we got the Dark Fairy is just Blue. She invented a foe so she could have control under the faries, she is the real main antagonist. Sorry, Cora.

- Snow and Charming are both trans. Snow is transfem and nb while Charming is transmasc. Charming was the one who was pregnant with Emma. He entered in the coma cause the attacks in the mist of having birth in a place with medieval medicine is hard. Snow never got pierced by a sword because she is an archer, she doesn't figth at a short distance.

- Charming's twin was not trans though. She just posed as a man because the king didn't want his heir to be a woman, the asshole also saw David as another girl playing pretend because he sucks. Jaimie may or may not be more relevant than just flashback evil twin sister and have a fake death and her own redemption arc instead.

- While most kingdoms in the Enchanted Florest are unfortunaly very bigoted, Snow's kingdom was part of the few who were very open minded and saw no problem with queerness.

- The reason why Snow's name is the only "weird" name in her kingdom is because when she came out as trans, she was ten and her dad let she choose the name, the kingdom was very prosperous and very bored so people sent her letters with name ideas. Unfortunally she was ten and as someone who went by Lemon when I was discovering myself as trans (and I was 15 at the time!) and still goes by it sometimes (though I mostly use Nico or my brithname cause names only have gender if you're a coward) I can atest thar transkids choose the most wild things.

- Zelena has a way different backstory. She is still Cora's lost daugther and still has an awfull adoptive dad that hates her 'cause she has magic. But everything after that is completly different. I didn't flash it all out yet, but she joins the four witches of directions, they became a family and Glinda and Zelena became lovers, even raising little princess Ozma.

- The problem is, there is something wrong with Oz. No one knows why, but the fate of every magic user in there has already been writen and they are forced to mantain it or Oz and everyone in it will ceasse to exist (the reason for it is because Oz was created by genie wish). And thanks to that Zelena has to be a villan and sacrifice her happines with Glinda and Ozma.

- She mets Rumple while looking for a way to solve her situacion and after discovering she is Cora's daugther Rumple promisses to help thinking he can manipulate and use her to cast the dark curse. But he soon realizes she won't accept to sacrifice the heart of her loved ones for the curse and, while he respects her for it, this means he has no use for her and therefore he breaks their partnership. She hates him because he promissed to help and never delivered. She was the second deal he broke and he doesn't even realize it at the time.

- She despises Regina because Regina choose to be a villan. In her partial vision of things, Regina is the cause of her own problems while Zelena literally had no choice on her own tragedy and "wickedness", Regina choose to be the Evil Queen. Will she realize that Regina have little choise between a selfish (desperated) imp and an abusive mother? Who knows?

- There is a prophesy in Oz that says a chosen savior will fix the land and bring back the free will and equilibrium to the realm. It is about Dorothy. But unfortunally missunderstandings lead to the people of Oz thinking it is about Emma and so instead of time travel, Zelena's evil plan is a ploy to bring Emma back to Storybrook and kidnap her so she can force her to solve a problem she literaly can't.

- Regina and Henry are the ones who save the day by discovering Dorothy and bringing her and her family to Oz. By saving Oz the realm is rebuild and now part of Storybrook. And that is how Zelena stays in the narrative. Except she has no other villan arcs nor rapey moments and instead is living her best life with her wife and kid, she still has her sarcastic personality and a slow build fixing of her relationship with her sister.

- Since I rewrote Zelena story (because I love Zelena's personality and Oz stories but hate her plots and the constant rapey vibes the writers give her) and by extension made Dorothy younger there is no Dorothy and Ruby. But there is Ruby and Belle and Dorothy and Ozma (who exists and can be her nb lesbian self who was totaly Dorothy love interest in the Oz books idc).

- Lastly, instead of developing a badly done enemies to lovers relationship with Regina, Robin Hood (played by a different actor in my mind for reasons) develops an enemies to brotops ship with both Mills sisters. In my universe Marian never died and they raised Roland together and are happily maried. Unfortunally both he and Marian end up dying in combat and Regina and Zelena (with help from Emma and Glinda and the Merry Man) have to raise Roland and Robin Jr. (who is not Zelena's daugther in this world). Robin Jr. and Alice will be a couple.

- Baefire and Neal aren't the same person. Neal is a magical clone, he doesn't know that and it's weird. I won't explain. Bae is still in Neverland and very traumatazed and now Rumple has two angry abandoned sons to deal with. He deserves the hardship.

- Since we are keeping the fixing villans who had potencial and a cool personality but were dragged on the mud. Let's go to dear old Rumple. Except for his mother being the Black Fairy (he had two fallen fairies spinisters aunts though and I will use the queercoded meaning of spinister here) his story is very similar until the point he abandons Baefire. More or less.

- Why more or less? You will see.

- I will change the Dark One origins cause I hate the Camelot Saga almost as much as the Black Fairy one.

- Anyway. Season one Rumple is almost perfect so the only change I'll make is Rumbelle. Because I'm a campy queer dork, I will keep my idea of Belle being lesbian and Rumple being gay.

- Basically thanks to an old book Belle discovered that an old necklace her mother gave her had strong magical porperties. So as her kingdon suffered against the ogers, she decided to make a deal with Rumplestiltskin. She would give him the necklace and in turn he would defeat the ogers, as her dad would object and the time it would take to convince him would cost lifes she opts for a deal made in secret. But while making the deal, Rumple shows interest in the book were she found the information about the necklace and tries to fish for another deal so he can have both. Now Avonela is one of the most bigoted kingdoms in the realm and Bella knows she will be forced to marry Gaston, a brute, she utterly dislikes, not only that but she will have to lie forever about being a lesbian (a thing Rumple gets cause before being the Dark One he too was a homosexual who lived in a bigoted comunity and was forced into conforming to the straight norm, marrying a woman and having a kid). So she decides to trade the book in exchage for a chance to escape. After a long discussion the two decide to fake a deal with Belle's dad where Rumple asks for her as the price, so they woudn't try to find her.

- After the deal, Belle has no place to go and after a inside battle with the sentient curse inside him, Rumple takes pity on Belle and decides to let her stay with him in the castle (he tries to find excuses about how that was not him being nice but Belle ignores them).

- Now Belle isn't a maid nor a prissioner. She can go whenever she wants and she does travel on her own sometimes looking for adventure(and that means she has way less conections when the show starts) but she always comes back (because the stability of having a home matters). She is a roomate. She does clean the place, but is more because she feels like she has to pay Rumple someway for letting her stay there. He thinks is completly ridiculous she is cleaning a magical castle that can do it by itself and accuses her of spoiling his house but the casttle clearly loves it.

- She and Rumple are not a couple. They aren't atracted to each other at all. She doesn't like man and he doesn't like woman. They are just two lonley people living together who understand each other and soon they are best friends. But they live in an heteronormative world and people assume they are a couple and are very shocked when they discover they aren't, specially because they are purposefully ambiguous and little shits about it for fun. Charming suffers the most.

- Charming and Rumple are kindda friends. Mostly becauee Charming and Rumple kindda bonded over David's quest to find Snow and he thinks Rumple has some good on him, specially whe he discovers the Dark One curse is sentient and speaks with Rumple, also because he is genuinally concern about this man mental health and thinks he needs someone to say "for god sake go to therapy" from time to time.

- My Rumple is less evil and more the neutral force he was on the first seasons. And after finding Bae he activally tries to be good to mend his relationship with his son (his sons since Bae got an adult magic clone). He also actually seeks help for his trauma and awfull mental health on general, though it is mostly cause David and Belle coerced him. David and Belle also coerced Emma, Regina, Zelena, Dorothy, Maleficent, Lily, Grumpy and honestly half of the town onto seeking mental health. They even found other therapists besides Archie (mostly normal peasants, though one of them was possibly Aladin's geenie) with different psycological main theory/area. Ironically, they had to be coerced into also seeking theraphy.

- Ruby and Belle are dating. They started as friends but them one day Rubby was drunk and said "if you weren't dating the Dark One, I would kiss you" and Belle said "I'm not" and at first Rubby was like "haha funny" and them she was "wait really?" and Belle said "Yep" and they kissed. That being said Ruby was sure Belle and Rumple were at least exes for a long time. And she was jealous of him since the two still lived together. Until one day she confronted them, Rumple just laughed and Belle explained the whole thing to her. Rumple - who is way older and should be the mature one - only added sarcastic comentary, giggled and made fun of the whole situacion. He also interrupted the explanation with random reasons he would never date Belle just to annoy her (Gold is the persona for non-friends, friends keep the annoying flamboyant dark one from the EF, good luck to them).

- Ruby joined David into the list people who had a weird friendship with Rumple after that. The list was them, Emma (who doesn't want to but has protagonist powers and is begrundgly friends with everyone in town) and Belle.

- On the other side of queer besties who aren't a couple we have the power bi duo: Hook and Emma. Though Killian had a crush on Emma in the begnning.

- But this Killian can take no as an answer. And he and Emma stay good friends. He is one of the biggest suporters of Emma's Evil Queen themed bi panics and later of their relationship.

- He and Rumple still hate each other, but they both have a truce, because they both are trying to be better and reconstruct their lifes. They will still insult each other ever chance they get.

- He and Regina start on the wrong foot, and for a while have an epic bi to bi hostility but they end up becoming friends.

- Neal doesn't die. Instead since they find Bae in Neverland he is having an existencial crisis in the background. The shock of unreality is a great motivator into not pursuing Emma and they keep a tense friendship that evolves into a real one. He is also close to Hook. Henry is bent on helping him figure it all out.

- While Bae and Rumple recover their relationship. Neal and Rumple never really do. They are in a better place, but it's still complicated.

- He becomes a close friend of Bae. Since the other him also wants to discover what is going on, specially since in the begining they didn't know who was the real one.

- More than that, Neal is the babysitter of it all. And ends up having to keep an eye and deal with the shennanigans of Henry, Ozma, Dorothy, and Bae. (And sometimes Gretel, Hansel and Grace)

- He ends up developing a big friendship with Snow. He is also close with Hook, Glinda, Zelena, Marian and Robin.

- Henry has more time to shinny as kid detective. Specially because thanks to my changes he actually gets friends close to his age.

- Henry is aroace. He is the author.

- Later there will he a bonus tale of adult Henry and teen Robin acting as an detective duo (Henry is a wanderring P.I who travels to magic realms solving important mysteries and them publishs his adventures in the Land Without Magic where he is known as a great fiction writer) find a realm created by a geenie wish with alternative versions of themselfs who are figthing to save their world as the gennie magic fades. Is there where Robin finds Alice.

- Regina did not have any relations with Graham. She stole his heart as a punishment but never used it for anything.

- There is a lot of other things but I'm tired so this is all for now.

[naiariddle]

4x11- 4x13:

In the second gif we have the real pirate swagger, not the fake imitation Rumple make Killian use (also in which universe Killian would have such a sinister face while going to see Emma?!)

(Reposting because I was clumsy enough to delete the original)

[justmilah]

For the ouat characters as mythical creatures thing I could also see Belle as a swan maiden 1) for much of the same reason Milah's a selkie but 2) it's different enough from a selkie that she's not just a copy of Milah and 3) it kinda fits her since swans are seen as very beautiful and elegant (and Belle is very beautiful (it's even mentioned in the name of her story - beauty and the beast) and has that kind of princess aesthetic and there kinda almost seems to be an aspect of some other characters treating her a little like a decoration (idk? it's subtle but I kinda see it?) which is what a lot of domestic swans are kept for) but swans in reality Can Fight You (and Belle is adventurous and not content being in a passive role all the time and actually is quite competent (at least... when the threat isn't coming from Rumple)). (And 4) one of my favorite Rumbelle songs (Writing on the Wall by Blackmore's Night) mentions swans (I mean what I'm not choosing this for superficial reasons not at all))

Okay so A) I'm used to getting anons and was having an existential crisis wondering how I was gonna tell someone I don't ship Rumbelle without coming across as 'SO DON'T SEND ME THESE' which isn't what I mean but 'I don't ship them so I hope I don't come across as hatey because I know how that feels please don't hate me' then I remembered how to read and saw your name and was all 'Omg good they already know how I feel! 8D' B) HI!! and C) I'm using letters since you used numbers :D

1) and 2) Oooo good points! (I know I told you how similar I find them, but yes, similar doesn't mean copy! So I like that idea.)

3) Ooo that IS fitting! (Yesss, I've always loved that, and that Belle means beauty, eee! Eight year old me's mind was BLOOOOWN when I was told that! It might have been the first time I actually thought about name meanings. I'd thought they were just sounds we called each other. Now I know better! For instance, apparently my name, Catherine, means pure! ...I was oddly offended when I found that out.) I can very much see where you're going with the comparrison and I can see it, too! Oh man, swans are scary. (One got aggressive with toddler me!) And sometimes Belle is scary. (Right?! (Right?!))

4) Oooo I haven't heard that song! I'll have to give it a listen to. (What I would never do such a thing either what do you mean.)

Thank you for your input!! And I agree, Belle is more suited to Swan Maiden than Selkie.