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cdroloisms · 11 months

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c!Dream and early aid for Pogtopia

(i promised this post so long ago rip)

There is a lot to say about c!Dream and the Pogtopia/Manberg era, especially because so many events in this period of time define the future of his character in very long-lasting ways. Much discussion has been focused particularly on the Vassal discussion and c!Dream's loyalties after--today, though, I want to focus on c!Dream's priorities before that discussion and what they might reveal about his goals.

First, I want to quickly link my post I made on c!Dream during the L'manburg Revolution, which establishes a few of the key c!Dreamisms that influence my read of him particularly pre-November 16th. Second, I want to point to a clip in the drodcast that emphasizes that the reason why c!Dream switched sides to Manberg was for the story's sake and in-universe therefore only happened because of the revive book deal, further indicating that the character had no prior intentions to turn against Pogtopia.

All that being said, there are a couple main points I want to make about (how I interpret) c!Dream in early Pogtopia.

c!Dream was already pretty obviously acting alone/isolated at the beginning of this arc

c!Dream was always genuine in his support for Pogtopia

There is more reason to believe in c!Dream's assertion that he wanted "L'manburg to be something" than the opposite

Starting wth point one, I think it's important to acknowledge how c!Dream emphasizes the idea of secrecy repeatedly during the beginnng of the Manberg/Pogtopia arc. He talks about how he has to provide support "from the shadows" in the Tyrant book, and he expresses similar sentiments when he gives supplies to c!Techno around this time as well. At the very least, when he was supplying aid at this point in time, he was pretty damn obviously acting alone--we see this as the arc progresses as well, when c!Dream helps c!Tommy in the Battle of the Lake and when he meets with Pogtopia during Vassal, for example.

Of course, acting alone doesn't necessarily mean isolation, although taking on a big + potentially dangerous task alone can lead to feelings of isolation regardless of that fact, but if we take a look at c!Dream at this time...sure he has friends, and people he's friendly with. But in terms of actual allies, he's kinda been on his own? c!George was decidedly part of Manberg due to the coalition at the start of the arc, and as far back as the Elections we see him claiming that he was "under Dream's rule" to explain that the decisions weren't his own in the Revolution.

Even though c!George obviously does not have high opinions of Wilbur and Tommy and their whole deal re: independence, we also see that no one really protests when c!Dream is called the "leader of tyranny."

And outside of this one debate, when we look at the actual events of the server...c!Dream enters into a few conflicts after the Revolution, all of which were not initiated by him. In these conflicts, he repeatedly has his items used as blackmail against him w/ the discs being the cited justification in a lot of cases (discs that were, once again, legally traded to him). And as far as these conflicts go, in terms of actual allies? There's really no one consistent at all? c!Sapnap outright teams with c!Tommy to get Dream's stuff until he turns on c!Tommy when he realizes opposing Dream isn't a good idea for him. c!Dream gets pulled into c!Sapnap's mess with the Pet Wars and therefore helps him hide their pets when the fight escalates--but at no point does c!Sapnap really outright support c!Dream in a conflict that involves him. c!Skeppy is also out here mostly in it for his own gain and was the one to steal Spirit's leather (from his. grave 😭) in the first place, like. Consistently, when c!Dream is involved in an actual conflict, he acts alone--before the Manberg/Pogtopia arc even begins. Mix in the fact that L'manburg was largely seen as an independent entity despite its technically being a part of the Dream SMP (and therefore Dream having to act accordingly) and the way that like the fandom, the L'manburg Revolution's aftermath brought in a lot of new members that further solidified the narrative in-universe (just like how a lot of new fans joined after the L'manburg Revolution, especially bc of the SAD-ist animation, which all served to solidify the l'manburg = heroes connection in the fandom as well) and the idea of c!Dream as the "bad guy" of the Revolution went relatively unchallenged (along with c!Eret, who obviously never shook the title of traitor.)

c!Dream was lacking in consistent allies and largely dealt with conflicts involving himself alone pre-Manberg/Pogtopia (gestures at how it's me and you against Dream was reiterated repeatedly), and when Manberg/Pogtopia began he had even more reason to act by himself. He was acting against the peace treaty by helping Wilbur and Tommy in Pogtopia, and a lot of the people he knew were friendly with or outright were a part of Manberg (George was a literal part of the government at the beginning, Karl was looking for wherever he could get an advantage, Sapnap is. Sapnap and shit was happening like the Battle of the Lake which literally involved kidnapping Niki, as well as other things)--c!Dream, at this point, is already used to working alone and had many reasons to continue doing so.

Onto point two: c!Dream was genuine in his support of Pogtopia throughout the arc until the point of the revive book deal. I want to point to the clip again from the drodcast, specifically how Dream says that before the conception of the revive book, c!Dream "literally switched for no reason we had no reason for me to switch [outside of the revive book]." This, plus the fact that what canonically does end up driving the decision to "switch sides" by publicly supporting c!Schlatt on November 16th is the literal revive book, all points to how c!Dream wasn't exactly going to side with c!Schlatt easily. It literally takes the whole ass revive book, the item that shatters his view of reality with its implications and was one of the central reasons why he had a paranoid spiral that involved him cooking up the prison for him to consider being on Schlatt's side.

Oftentimes, the arguments around c!Dream in this era and how he was manipulating the situation for his own gain boil down to two main moments where an assertion is made that c!Dream was playing both sides to make them destroy each other, those being Vassal and his speech to c!Eret on November 16th.

The first excerpt, Vassal, happened in early October, and the latter comes from the famous conversation c!Dream has with c!Eret on November 16th. And from these two excerpts, it can seem reasonable to believe that c!Dream's intentions were in the realm of helping both sides destroy each other, especially considering his saying that his plan is "there is no Manberg, there's no L'manburg, there's no Pogtopia, there's just Dream SMP an there's Dream SMP everywhere." But--regardless of whether or not you believe this statement, regardless of whether or not he wanted L'manburg gone from the beginning of this arc, it's undeniable that his actions do not support the claim that he was always planning to help Manberg to sabotage both sides.

The only reason why c!Dream helps c!Schlatt, and by extension Manberg, was the revive book. And this is made quite explicit both in and out of character. This man was calling Manberg L'manburg to Manberg's goddamn cabinet, for god's sake. As soon as the deal with the Election results go down, c!Dream aligns himself with Pogtopia. He supplies Manberg no aid until after the revive book deal and literally warns Pogtopia when he switches sides???? Even the claim that he wanted the two entities to destroy each other doesn't reflect the reality of him knowing that destruction would come at c!Wilbur's hands from the TNT, not from the fight between Manberg/Pogtopia in itself.

Even if you proceed with the reading that c!Dream wanted L'manburg dead and gone and wanted that from the beginning, he quite clearly was helping Pogtopia against Manberg in order to facilitate his goals and was not helping c!Schlatt until the revive book forced his hand.

The third point is the one most up for debate/based on interpretation, but I believe that, based on the information we have, it is more reasonable to believe that at the beginning of Manberg/Pogtopia c!Dream had no plans for the total destruction of L'manburg and didn't necessarily see that as one of his end goals for the server than to say that the opposite is true.

For one, going back to the revolution, c!Dream--even then--didn't have total annihilation of L'manburg as his end goal. He goes into that war knowing that he would give them "technical independence"--allowing them to exist as an entity, hell, allowing them to have 'independence' in some form (although obviously he finds the whole "we are our own server now actually" situation ridiculous). If there was ever any time to pursue the total destruction of L'manburg as an entity, it would've been then, before L'manburg was ever firmly established.

If we take c!Dream purely at his word (a dubious thing to do for sure, obviously, mans is a liar--but at the same time, c!Dream at that time was also a man that was known to generally keep his end of the deal) then c!Dream's motives at the beginning of Pogtopia are quite clear: the Tyrant book establishes the reasons why he opposes c!Schlatt, that he was able to maintain peace with L'manburg but did not feel that the same could be true as long as c!Schlatt was leader, and that "Schlatt is no Wilbur."

Later on, in Vassal, he reiterates these points, openly mocking c!Schlatt in connection with democracy and once again stating that he doesn't see Pogtopia as the bad guys + stating that c!Schlatt, unlike c!Wilbur, is unfit as a ruler because of his ambition.

Later on, when outright questioned about why he supports L'manburg now when he was the one that famously opposed them in the Revolution, he says this:

and obviously, right, he could be lying. I'm not discounting that. But it's rather notable, I think, that when it comes to c!Dream agreeing to give c!Wilibur TNT, that's in response to "I want to rig the city"--a city that, at that minute, was in enemy hands and a force that they were planning on fighting. c!Dream had pledged his allegiance to Pogtopia and specifically set a precedent of himself as an ally that would provide military aid and items (see: the gear he gives c!Techno and c!Tommy, Battle of the Lake, hell, he gives c!Tommy TNT literal minutes before Vassal while all but guarding him when c!Tommy is trying to antagonize Manberg in order to bring them back and keep them from discovering Pogtopia)--his support in this area does not, in my opinion, show clear support for the actual ideological reasons behind why c!Wilbur concludes he has to blow up L'manburg (and in Vassal, we actually see him push against those reasons several times, as shown below.)

And again, whether or not you think his disagreement is genuine or if you believe he was just fishing for information/how serious c!Wilbur actually was, I'd say that his words and action in this scene do, repeatedly, indicate a level of hesitance. He is not jumping the gun as soon as the opportunity presents itself for him to get rid of L'manburg once and for all--he's being cautious. Assessing. So much so that c!Wilbur picks up on it and outright threatens him, which is also the point in the conversation where c!Dream stops arguing back against any of the points that he makes:

And the point I'm making here isn't that c!Dream didn't want L'manburg to be destroyed when he agreed to give c!Wilbur the TNT. I think there does exist proof for this point, including whatever the hell Dream knew that Plan B had to happen...I'm so proud was supposed to mean, but that's not the point I'm specifically trying to make here. Rather, I think that until L'manburg's destruction is specifically brought up by c!Wilbur, there is little proof that shows c!Dream as specifically pursuing it/planning to get rid of it for the sake of a factionless server.

Sure, you can say that c!Dream's ideal server would've been a server without L'manburg on it. You could also say that c!Dream's ideal server at the time was a server where c!Tommy shut up abt the damn discs alread and a server where c!Sapnap stopped rampaging through the pet population on the server--there's a difference between "the ideal" and what he was specifically working towards. And the fact of the matter is, after the Revolution, c!Dream really doesn't have any conflicts with L'manburg itself. c!Tommy? Certainly--largely initiated by c!Tommy for the discs that he literally traded c!Dream during the revolutionary war. But c!Dream is hardly entering into faction conflict--he even says, in Tyrant, that they had peace between their two nations, and that it was C!SCHLATT'S election that disrupted that peace.

And c!Dream's particular dislike of factions is also something that I think has a tendency to get...overexaggerated? Especially because it's one of the foundational tenets of the L'manburg mythos--c!Dream is a control freak that opposed the idea of people getting together to make a "country" without him, etc etc. This is even something that is addressed in the Mexican L'manburg debates:

c!Dream doesn't like factions, true. He'd prefer a united server without them, true. But c!Dream being pushed into taking action against any particular faction really didn't start from him just, hating factions in the first place? There always was some kind of inciting incident. By the time of post-Nov 16th, he quite evidently recognizes that factions are going to continue to be a Thing--he never has any outright conflict with the Badlands, for example, because they don't really engage in conflict with him--and later he practically ignores El Rapids even after the whole debacle that was Mexican L'manburg. When c!Dream says "look you guys were fine because you were just existing" in the Tyrant book and in Vassal, that fits the pattern of how he deals with faction conflict on this server? (See, also, how he generally doesn't go after factions post-prison, despite making some implicit threats: the only faction that he goes after is LN, and even if you consider the fact that he probably had bigger fish to fry with the whole, world reset thing, once again factions don't really matter to him until he's registering them as an explicit threat.)

The Revolution was meant to prove a point, the point being don't fuck with me--a point that c!Wilbur clearly understood and abided by. And after the Revolution, c!Dream really never shows any inclinations of wanting conflict with L'manburg or wanting it gone the way that we see that as more consistent trait later on by the time we get to things like the revive book deal, and Nov. 16th, and especially in his dealings with NLM leading up to Doomsday the unfinished symphony, right?

And, you know, all of this makes sense. c!Dream knows that L'manburg isn't just about L'manburg itself, considering the damn story of L'manburg was established by c!Wilbur in like, what, a day? c!Dream and the Americans (tm) were established as the Enemy even though half of them literally weren't involved at all in the drug van conflict (and members of L'manburg had. Literally fought with c!Sapnap in said conflict??) and L'manburg grew out of that story in almost no time at all. c!Dream has zero reason to believe that the destruction of L'manburg in entirety is even possible--he literally didn't think it was possible in the Revolution! c!Dream's priorities for the server isn't a factionless server, it's a peaceful server--not to mention how he literally saw L'manburg as part of the Dream SMP anyway? As long as L'manburg the entity wasn't starting shit (which they weren't, not until Schlatt got elected and everything went to hell) c!Dream really doesn't have a motive to try and Start A Conflict against them (which is antithetical to the whole peaceful coexistence schtick that he was trying to get at) and really doesn't have much of a reason to think that any of that would even work either, considering how he was quite confident that the L'manburgians would never give up when L'manburg was like. A week old.

Of course, with Vassal and with c!Wilbur going "let me destroy it all" it's obviously perfectly possible that c!Dream was thinking hey, the guy that all of L'manburg respects and sees as leader wants L'manburg gone, this could possibly lead to L'manburg being fully dissolved and the server going back to being factionless and united and for that to motivate his later actions in the arc and his support of c!Wilbur. But Vassal still has to happen first. There really isn't any reason to believe that c!Dream was gunning for L'manburg's destruction at the start of the arc, and c!Dream really had every reason to believe that that wouldn't even be possible (and I mean, NLM had rebuilt itself literally like. In the span of a week? So.) Based on what we see, the most that can really be said imo about c!Dream here is that he's being opportunistic, and even then he expresses a level of hesitance throughout Vassal.

Considering how c!Dream supported Pogtopia from the beginning and only ends that alliance because of the revive book deal and considering how he acted in the time period between the Revolution and Manberg/Pogtopia, I think it's fair to state that c!Dream's statements of his end goal being to return to the "peace" that had existed pre-Manberg through the coexistence of L'manburg and DreamSMP, one side believing themselves independent and the other side believing that they're all part of the same server, was. His original end goal when Manberg/Pogtopia began. He had every reason to support Pogtopia over Manberg (and by extension, Wilbur over Schlatt) when you consider how Wilbur generally was willing to play nice with c!Dream post-revolution, a sentiment rather clearly not shared by c!Schlatt and his expansionist ideals. Even if c!Dream would've preferred a server without L'manburg, his actions as far back as the Revolution indicate to me that the likelihood of his actually creating any plans in that direction is rather small and that his sentiments of returning the server back to how it was in its pre-Manberg state are close to the truth. c!Dream isn't stupid enough to think that destroying L'manburg outright would've suddenly resulted in server peace--destabilizing shit by making everyone mad at him at that point in time really seems antithetical to his goals? It seems more likely to me that c!Dream, in alignment with his goals, at this point would prioritize a peaceful server over a factionless one, especially at a time pre-Manberg nonsense when the whole "L'manburg is an independent nation that Matters A Lot To Everyone" is just so deeply entrenched.

And obviously quite a few important changes happen to his character around this time, especially due to 1) Vassal and 2) the Revive Book Deal. I think that these two in particular have a lot to do with the character that we see in November 16th (when c!Dream is already acting quite a lot more like how he will continue to act over the next two months up until staged finale, and when he's already a little bit more, uh. Unhinged than we've seen him, looks at his laughter when c!Wilbur detonates the TNT.) And obviously a lot of the important development that happens at this time (such as his spending time with c!Wilbur in Pogtopia + the. Everything with c!Schlatt, the book deal, shakes everyone about the book deal again) happens off-screen, so we have to speculate a bit. But at the end of the day, when c!Dream is considered in the context of who he was before Manberg/Pogtopia began as well as who he ends up being at the end of the arc, it definitely feels to me that these early moments shouldn't be as wholly dismissed as an act/front/lies what have you as they commonly are.

#oh GOD this ended up so long. ummm . rip #long post #c!dreamisms #c!dream #dreblr #i promised this post literal months ago rippp #also disclaimer lmao a lot of this is abt interpretation and a lot of how people see pogtopia is commonly disputed #this is just how i see the events 👍#i try to give my reasoning for why as thoroughly as i can but yeahghhgh ...

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