#Greek Rhetoric

[sarafangirlart]

What is your opinion about the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus?

Someone told me once that the idea of Achilles and Patroclus being together is what happens when you let women read a book about war. I tried to explain to him that even ancient greeks had different views on Achilles and Patroclus and that some of them (Aeschylus, Plato, Pindar, Aeschines) portrayed them as having a same-sex love relationship, so the idea that they two might have been lovers isn't a modern one. He then told me that all of these sources are inconsequential, and that I'm a fujoshi who likes to entertain herself with an unorthodox view on Ancient Greece.

They were most definitely gay why is this still a debate?

[sailforvalinor]

*taps mic* This is a highly specific thing that irks me, but here we go: stop using the terms “canon” or “original” to refer to mythology, folklore, and fairytales. Canonicity is a modern concept (as in, the past several hundred years) that only applies to modern novels, films, and other such works. Stories like mythology, folklore, and fairytales that belong to large people groups, while different tellings may share certain fundamental details, by their nature will vary in their details great and small simply due their being told over and over again by different people over great swaths of time, and looking for the “original” is most often pointless, as these stories are usually so old that their first telling is lost to time, and calling the oldest source we have the “canon” version is incorrect, as in all likelihood the true “oldest” version has not been and never will be discovered, and doing this is a gross misunderstanding of how cultural storytelling functions—thus, mythology, folklore, and fairytales fundamentally cannot have a conclusive canon. *leaves stage*

[jeannereames]

Did Christianity change the perception of Alexander in a meaningful way?

Perhaps a bit surprisingly, the rise of Christianity didn’t really alter perceptions of Alexander that much, largely for two reasons.

First, imperial authors (both Greek and Latin) had already shaped those perceptions according to popular philosophic virtues—using Alexander as either an exempla of Bad Behavior or of Proper Restraint (or both, depending on the writer).

Second, in an attempt to gain acceptance, or at least tolerance, for Christianity among the larger Roman imperial public, some early Christian theologians began presenting Christianity as a form of philosophy (Justin Martyr and Origen are good examples, as well as Augustine later). Some non-Christian philosophers fought back directly (Celsus and Plotinus, most notably), and some Christian authors actively resisted this “philosophizing” of Christianity (Tertullian). Yet several philosophic ideas (and ideals) seeped into early Christian thought in ways that might have surprised Jesus.

Probably the most influential were Neoplatonism (thank you, Origen), and Stoicism. Notions of self-control, ataraxia (equilibrium), and asceticism folded into Christianity as early as Paul, but certainly by Justin Martyr (early/middle first century CE) and Origen (early second century CE). These then became part of Christian discourse. Christian Gnosticism, after all, is just a particular flavor of gnostic thought found throughout the Mediterranean and ancient near east. Gnosticism owes to Neoplatonism mixing with an influx of Persian and Hindu notions that had floated west even before Alexander but certainly accelerated after. (One could even debate to what degree Plato himself was influenced by eastern ideas; after all, philosophy was born in Asia Minor with Thales & Friends, then bypassed mainland Greece for a bit to land in Sicily and south Italy. Athens was a johnny-come-lately to the party.)

In any case, “Alexander” had already been firmly situated in philosophic and rhetorical discourse in ways that were easily adopted and adapted by Church theologians. He remained a negative example of anger and worldly ambition, and a positive one of (military) leadership and physical (especially sexual) restraint.

One might point to the elimination of Alexander’s bisexual interests as Christianizing, but that’s too simple. We already find Roman literature headed that way. Romans had mixed receptions of “Greek love,” even when expressed “properly” between older men and younger boys/male slaves. It’s Roman Curtius who gives us the very negative impact of the eunuch Bagoas as part of the larger depiction of Alexander corrupted by Eastern (Asian) influence. It’s also Curtius, however, who gives us clues to other (freeborn) boys who may have been Alexander’s beloveds, but always presented in coded language as “favorites.” There’s more to say about that, but it depicts pretty well, imo, the Roman mixed mind on the matter. Also, Plutarch’s presentation of Alexander’s indignation when offered pretty boys is, even now, used by those who want to deny Alexander’s interest in males. While we can quibble over exactly what Plutarch meant Alexander to object to (it’s important to contextualize where this anecdote appears), it’s certainly not the open praise of beautiful boys found in, say, the poetry of Solon.

None of that is Christian.

Also—and conversely—we find several Renaissance-and-later paintings that depict Hephaistion and Alexander, some homoeroticized, such as the tapestry made from LeBrun’s sketch of Alexander taking leave of Hephaistion (by kissing him). Yes, kissing was a normal hello and goodbye, but the overtones are, imo, intentional.

It’s really not until the latter 1800s that Hephaistion starts to disappear from ATG discourse as heightened homophobic fears require him to be excised from Alexander’s narrative to protect the conqueror from THOSE allegations. Yes, that’s related to Christianity, but I’d argue it’s more about rising homophobia in Europe, even if Christianity is used as the excuse—just as slavery pre-existed Christianity, but Christianity was later employed to justify its continuation.

So, perhaps surprisingly, no, Christianity didn’t significantly alter popular consciousness of Alexander.

I’m not a specialist on the Alexander Romance, but it’s here you’d find more obvious Christianizing, and Islamizing, as well. Look up the work of Richard Stoneman on the Romance. Also checkout Ken Moore’s Brill's Companion to the Reception of Alexander the Great.

[memoriesofthingspast]

💃sweet-bitter songz 🌈

[imminent-danger-came]

Like I knew the twitter anti crisis was bad. But the twitter anti crisis is

b a d

[dootznbootz]

The fact that when most people hear the name, Hermione, they think of TERF JKR's character, instead of the Cool OG Greek Mythology Figure, Hermione of Sparta, daughter of Helen and Menelaus of Sparta, fills me with an ungodly amount of rage :)

[finelythreadedsky]

"a Roman orator must have looked more like a hula dancer than like a television anchorman"...........

[wingsofhcpe]

Every few years the tumblr queer community decides that we clearly don't have enough problems as is with real bigots, and they pick a sub-category of other queer people to convince us that "actually these are the True Oppressors, Guys, I Promise, they're too loud and privileged and stealing our rights as we speak!" while also mostly using recycled terf rhetoric but Woke This Time to support these accusations. At some point it was bi people (especially bi sapphics), then ace and aro people. Now it seems it's the turn of trans men & transmasc people in general.

And of course, if you as a member of the targeted demographic try to speak up, you're labelled as proof of the accusations. "See? They're loud and annoying and are oppressing us by not letting us target them, instead of shutting up and taking it like good little victims!".

And I, for one, I'm not having it.

[randomnameless]

Faerghus is based on Russia and Adrestia on Rome right? I can't tell why they made the agarthan language Russian. Is it some kinda big brain move to connect them like Ancient Greece and Rome are connected, or was that just a coincidence?

On another note, some nabatean names (among other things) are inspired by Celtic/Irish mythology so their language can even be old Irish.

In the end it depends on who you attribute Ancient Greece to. It could be the original of both of their cultures and they split off and did their own thing? Idk, we just don't know enough...

Eh...

I don't remember where I saw that post (maybe the dev interview from 2020?) but Faerghus's real life inspirations was a mix match between various "northern" "european" countries, idk, Fr-england-ssia or something like this.

While Adrestia has a coliseum and used to rule over "the world" a long time ago, Enbarr's current architecture is closer to the eastern part of the roman empire (that'd later be called the byzantine empire!) who... used way more greek than latin! IIRC in that same interview the devs said Adrestia was inspired by Germany and Italy? Italian inspirations (historical at least) are evident with the coliseum and Enbarr's palace (it has a crapton of mosaics in Nopes!) while the German ones can be spot through names of Adrestian characters and particles, and how squads are called.

I think the first historical nonsense that pissed me was about someone trying to fit ancient greece/rome in the Nabatean/Agarthan conflict - but reading too much about languages and irl parallels, while fun to honeypot, is ultimately a sterile debate when Japan has been known to use several languages/names in various video games because they sounded cool/exotic enough (Jugdral's Sigurd and Deirdre and Chulainn come to mind, but then Granvalle's knight squads made me learn the name of some colors in german!) - even if Agarthan units being named after ancient sages, and their titans - i mean giant robots - having an arte called "titanomachy" is pretty revealing on the aesthetic the devs wanted to give them, which is also all kinds of interesting when you take into account that Rhea is the only one of Sothis's kids who is named in this fashion - from her name we could guess she's an Agarthan, but no, Sothis named her youngest kid the Agarthan way?

Anyways, I thought about it for funsies in the original language post (rather, tags) to be something like aramaic, with an alphabet that would be so different from modern day Fodlan's alphabet that randoms who never thought those symbols might be letters would just, ignore it - but it's basically headcanon land.

If nabatean language came from Sothis, is it like "the blue sea star's language", or are they even communicating in "Nabatean" through words, can this language be vocalised by humans, is it like entish, or was it kept secret and only used between Nabateans like Tolkien's khuzdul?

Or, about Agarthans - maybe they used a certain language before being wiped out and shared it with those lizards and some other random humans, Sothis confined them underground, Enbarrians kept on using the Agarthan language and through centuries of usage it eventually branched to become the Enbarr language - and pissed to speak something even similar to the language of those beasts, Agarthans evolved their original language to the one we can now spot in Shambala?

[empressalvaranova-vt]

Things I've said to my girlfriend that I think were absolute unmatched poetry, inspired by the divine:

(Context; she called my love an endless ocean)

"My love, if I am an endless ocean, then you are a great and infinite cosmic expanse. Your beauty is peerless in all the world, and should you become even more resplendent you may yet outshine the very goddess of beauty to whom you are successor. I believe Arachne and Helen of Troy may have wisdom regarding the dangers of surpassing a goddess, but their tragedy lies not in their transgression; rather, it lies in the fact they did not have me there to protect them from any and all danger no matter how mighty. Because for you, my love, I would do anything~"

[dylanlila]

i love to say things and i love to say them in front of a large group of people... let me teachhhhhh......

[sbnkalny]

But then I took a class in greek rhetoric

[blueheartbookclub]

Delving into Poetic Wisdom: A Review of "On the Art of Poetry" by Aristotle

Aristotle's "On the Art of Poetry," translated by Ingram Bywater, stands as a seminal work in literary criticism, offering profound insights into the nature and function of poetry that continue to resonate with readers and scholars alike. Written in the 4th century BCE, this treatise serves as a comprehensive examination of the principles and techniques that underlie the creation of poetry, providing valuable guidance for poets and readers alike.

At its core, "On the Art of Poetry" is a testament to Aristotle's keen intellect and analytical prowess. In this work, Aristotle explores the various elements that contribute to the effectiveness of poetry, including plot, character, diction, and spectacle. Through his systematic analysis, Aristotle seeks to uncover the universal principles that govern the art of poetry, shedding light on its essential nature and its role in human society.

One of the most compelling aspects of "On the Art of Poetry" is Aristotle's emphasis on the importance of mimesis, or imitation, in poetry. According to Aristotle, poetry is a form of imitation that seeks to represent the actions, emotions, and experiences of human life. Through the skillful use of language and imagery, poets are able to create a vivid and lifelike portrayal of the world, inviting readers to engage with their work on a profound emotional and intellectual level.

Moreover, "On the Art of Poetry" offers valuable insights into the principles of dramatic structure and the role of catharsis in tragedy. Aristotle argues that tragedy is a form of poetry that evokes feelings of pity and fear in the audience, leading to a purgation or cleansing of these emotions. Through the depiction of the fall of a tragic hero, tragedy allows audiences to confront their own mortality and the fragility of human existence, ultimately leading to a deeper understanding of the human condition.

In addition to its exploration of tragedy, "On the Art of Poetry" also examines the principles of comedy and epic poetry, providing valuable guidance for poets working in these genres. Aristotle discusses the importance of unity of plot, character, and theme in epic poetry, as well as the role of humor and satire in comedy. Through his analysis, Aristotle highlights the diversity of poetic forms and the unique challenges and opportunities that each genre presents to the poet.

In conclusion, "On the Art of Poetry" by Aristotle is a timeless classic that continues to inspire and enlighten readers with its profound insights into the nature of poetry. Aristotle's systematic approach to literary criticism, coupled with his keen observations and analytical rigor, make this work an indispensable resource for anyone interested in the art of poetry. With its timeless wisdom and enduring relevance, "On the Art of Poetry" remains a cornerstone of literary theory and a testament to the enduring power of poetic expression.

Aristotle's "On the Art of Poetry," is available in Amazon in paperback 12.99$ and hardcover 18.99$ editions.

Number of pages: 116

Language: English

Rating: 10/10                                           

Link of the book!

Review By: King's Cat

[passionsofthegods]

"Tell me Hephaestus, is our mother a slave to Zeus? Yes, our father may yell and beat his chest for us all to see, but behind closed doors, he tiptoes around his wife." -Ares

Passions of the Gods Available NOW on Amazon & KU!

[aboutanancientenquiry]

In The Shape of Herodotean Rhetoric, Vasiliki Zali offers a fresh assessment of Herodotus’ rhetorical awareness. Redressing the usual view that considers Thucydides as a significant jump from earlier authors in the rhetorical tradition, Zali attempts to find a place for Herodotus. The volume explores the direct and indirect speeches in Herodotus’ fifth to ninth books, focusing in particular on the ways in which they highlight two major narrative themes: the fragility of Greek unity and the problematic Greco-Persian polarity. Through discussion of case studies and Herodotus’ literary background, Zali brings Herodotus’ sophisticated rhetorical system to life, examines the ways in which this system affects Herodotus’ authority, and demonstrates that Herodotus occupies a crucial place in the development of rhetoric.

Source: https://brill.com/display/title/26536

Dr. Vasiliki Zali is lecturer of Ancient Greek Culture and Language at the University of Liverpool (Department of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology).

[memoriesofthingspast]