#I was there for the Korrasami handhold

[swan2swan]

Yasammy: Reunited

[pandoratheprocrasticreator]

idk how to word this well but i feel like a lot of media critique is read as too personal to the author? obviously the intentions of the creator is important and the circumstances they made the thing in is important to discuss but i feel like that should be like. context. an explanation of why the story is like that but not a way to shut down further discussion.

like for example a lot of critique of tv shows is rebutted with "well the network cancelled it/forced it to keep going beyond its natural end/threw in a bunch of stuff to fuck up the creator's vision so it's not the writer's fault." and like. who was blaming the writers? yes maybe the network fucking with the creative team made the show turn out bad but that doesn't mean the show isn't still bad! it's just that now there's a conversation about network interference and how that affects the final product.

and i think outside factors that affect the story should be discussed!! i think networks are often unfair to its creatives hence why they're striking now. i think censorship is often limiting and prevents writers from telling the stories they want and (tumblr focuses more on this) having good representation. i think the identities of the creators and their beliefs and abilities have massive implications on a story and i think all of it should be discussed as the context the story was made in. i just don't think we should stop the discussion there. we still need to talk about what did and didn't work in the story itself.

when i say "the plot/rep/format of the story had X problem because it affected the story/audience interpretation of the story in X way" and someone says "well the writer's boss forced them to make the plot/rep/format like that," i think it's important to know as a part of media critique. but if they refuse to discuss my initial statement and just ends the discussion there because the problem wasn't caused by the writer, i don't find that interesting or useful to think about.

the only purpose of saying this and only this is to tell me that no, the creative team isn't at fault for this specific thing. i shouldn't get mad at these people that i will likely never meet whose only relationship i have with them is consuming their work. and like. you shouldn't harass people for writing bad stories regardless but if you need to be told that specific creators aren't to blame for a thing you disliked to stop you from doxxing them then that's one purpose of that.

but for that to be the only discussion point is ignoring the actual story. forgive me for assuming but i feel like most people would want to talk about the actual media when they do critique, not the personal/political drama involved in making the media. this is an online discussion about something published by strangers, not a writing workshop with your friends.

and i think talking about the problems that arise in a story because of outside influences can bring more awareness to those influences! if you say "the publisher told them to not make those two gay" and refuse to elaborate people just think "oh :( well i bet a hypothetical book where those two were gay would have been cool :)" if you say "these two have character arcs that would make more sense in X ways if they were gay but because the publisher told them not to make them gay it falls flat in X ways" people would think "holy shit! the publisher's prioritizing their homophobia over telling a good story! i hope next time they have a book like that they'll just let them be gay!"

pointing out exactly how outside influences hurt a story will show audiences not only how these factors fucked over the creatives career-wise, but also their own enjoyment of the story. most people won't affect the way creative teams of media they like are managed, but in the rare instance that they do, "it makes the story worse and therefore less profitable" is a better talking point than just "don't interfere with the writers because it'll make the writers sad."

basically if i point out a problem with a story and you reply "this problem was caused by X external factor," the next sentence should be "and here's how and why X external factor affected the story in these ways." it's shouldn't be "and you shouldn't blame the writers for it because it was someone else's fault." pointing out that capitalism and bigotry exists should not be the end of the conversation. you need to say something its effects on the story in tangible ways. otherwise the conversation has no value.

and i want to reiterate that i know a lot of limitations studios and publishers place on creators are frustrating to the creators themselves. it must feel horrible to see people be dissatisfied with your work, especially if some of the things they critique wasn't your fault. i cannot stress enough how much i dont think less of a creative team's skill unless i know for a fact that they chose to make something bad without any outside influences, which is incredibly rare. if i criticize something, i am not placing blame on anyone unless i outright say "i blame the writer/studio/publisher for this."

when i talk about my thoughts on a story, it's entirely for me. i'm not holding out hope that hollywood executives will see my opinions and tailor-make something for me so i'll stop complaining. i talk about and criticize media i like because it's fun. it's how i engage with media. i don't know the creators of 99% of the things i enjoy, and they will almost definitely never know me. while it's interesting to learn about the production process of a piece of media, even if i don't know who's "responsible" for a part of a story i don't like, i won't get angry at the creators for that. i don't connect the value of the writer to the value of the story in that way.

[jameszmaguire]

every time someone calls Night at the Museum, of all things, queerbaiting, I age ten years

[dukeofdelirium]

I still see byler shippers saying the duffers better not “pull a korrasami” and i don’t think y’all realize how annoying that is.

Korrasami was the first canonical gay pairing in a children’s show. It quite literally changed the way representation works for cartoons and children’s programming. This is a huge, huge reason you have gay rep in cartoons now.

The creative team and the cocreators of ATLA and TLOK fought hard against Nickelodeon to have this rep. Nickelodeon said “No, we can’t allow you to have a gay kiss, we can’t show this to kids”. They fought just to get a handhold on screen. Rep back then simply wasn’t allowed. This wasn’t a streaming service, it was cable TV.

This situation is completely different to what Byler and Netflix is. There is actually nothing preventing rep in Stranger Things, and nothing that would stop an onscreen kiss or more between Byler. There’s no need to try to diminish another canonical gay pairing to make comments about a completely diff show and creative team. Korrasami was not queerbait and the cocreators publicly said it was canon. This was a big deal for a lot of us. This was back before gay marriage was even legalized in America, and having them so openly support our community meant a lot to a LOT of people.

Yes, Byler means a lot to so many of us too, and yes it WILL be a huge deal if/when it becomes canon. But that doesn’t mean that this other ship wasn’t a big deal, too, or that it was somehow a slight against gay people because it definitely wasn’t at all

[bylerpolls]

Do you think there’s a chance they Korrasami us/Tyrus us? (making us canon and endgame by a romantic handhold or something like that but not giving us a kiss or anything more concrete)

A) There’s always a chance, and I wouldn’t be happy. I’m afraid of this, but at least Byler is endgame!

B) There’s always a chance, and I wouldn’t be happy, and I’d rather there be no Byler at all

C) I don’t think that’s possible. The Duffers would never do this. There’s too much romantic momentum. This would be homophobic too.

D) That’s what I genuinely believe will happen!

[smokestarrules]

I also thought they could had probably kissed in the handhold scene. But I think that alone was intense and intimate enough to satisfy. (Sidenote: I really hope if they end the show without them kissing people won't start calling it queer bait or things like that like they did with Korrasami back in the day. That shouldn't even be close to a concern with how unsubtle it is but you know how the internet is)

Oh for sure, I think the scene ending on them holding hands was perfect. And while I'm sure there'll still be people who claim queerbait in the end, even if there's no kiss, I mean--Suletta canonically daydreamed about buying wedding dresses. Like. You don't have to have characters make out onscreen for them to be canon. That's already pretty damn explicit.

[trashblogranbykelsi]

BRB I JUST REWATCHED THE LAST COUPLE OF EPISODES OF LEGEND OF KORRA WHILE DRINKING TWO BEERS AND NOW IM IN MY FEELINGS AND THAT ICONIC HAND HOLD IS HURTING ME AND MY FIANCÉE IS IN THE SHOWER UNABLE TO HOLD ME AT THIS MOMENT PLEASE SEND HELP!!!

[doubleca5t]

I feel like kids in middle an high school now have no concept of what it was like for queer people even 10 years ago and while that's obviously excellent on the one hand bc things are better, on the other hand WHAT.

Oh my god if you're in high school now you have no idea what things were like in the late 2000s to early 2010s. Gay marriage was still an open public debate and whether or not it would go through was legitimately up in the air. There were like... two gay characters on TV, both cis white gay guys. Modern Family was considered groundbreaking because it showed the hets that gay people could be "normal" as opposed to lisping stereotypes. Trans people were practically unheard of. If you saw a trans person in media it was a trans woman and the joke was that a woman with a penis is disgusting and no man would want to sleep with one. Tumblr was simping for the democrats and doing surface level buzzfeed feminism. Twitter was hailed as a positive force for democracy and justice. Socialism was still a dirty word both online and off. Black Lives Matter hadn't taken off yet but the violence it was created to fight was everywhere. There was no steven universe, no she ra, no kipo. There wasn't even anything on air resembling that!!! The most we had was Korrasami and that got censored so hard that it was limited to a single shot of handholding and they weren't even allowed to air it on TV (it was broadcast on an online streaming service that no one used)

Like don't get me wrong, a lot of shit has gotten worse since 2008 but the thing about polarization is that even though the right has gone much further right the left has also gone a LOT further left and that's something that I think it's worthwhile to step back and appreciate from time to time.

[takerfoxx]

When you think about it, Lumity is really quite remarkable.

I mean, yes! It is absolutely groundbreaking to see a queer relationship in a kid's show, one that is completely unambiguous, is 100% text, and is between the main characters as opposed to a couple of background characters that wander on screen every now and then. And it's on a Disney show no less! That is incredible!

But what also shouldn't be taken for granted is that it is also 100% a ship. And by that I mean that it has all of the dynamics of a classic ship that fans would be absolutely gaga for, with the whole enemies to friends with a lot of cute chemistry between an overenthusiastic ball of sunshine and a slowly thawing ice queen, both with their own respective damages and insecurities that warm up to each other over the course of the show. Had Dana not thrown down the gauntlet and made it abundantly clear that Lumity was absolutely the goal, people would be shipping them like mad anyway, content with subtext alone and dreaming of what could have been. They just have that kind of connection.

Furthermore, if tradition held and they did hook up, we would expect it to not happen until the end of the show, for a number of reasons. And I don't just mean like in cases of Catradora, Bubbline, and Korrasami, which were absolutely integral in busting down the door and deserve all the respect in the world for that. I mean even in hetero couples, it's rare that they end up together before the end of the show as well. Aang and Katara didn't hook up until the end, Robin and Raven didn't hook up until the end, Star and Marco didn't really hook up until the end, Kim and Ron did at least manage to hook up before the last episode but it was still pretty late in the game. And I know that there's exceptions, but those do tend to be exceptions.

Also, not throwing shade at any of those couples either, just pointing out the trend.

But here we have a ship that people were gaga for, one between two girls in a Disney kids' cartoon, one that was intended to be official and properly built up to (and no, it wasn't rushed, y'all just used to being blueballed), one that took the time to establish their relationship and let it grow, and made it 100%...in the MIDDLE of the series!

And that's what strikes me as extraordinary. We not only get this major, iconic, needle-moving ship become a canon relationship, we get to see them put in the work and make this feel like a real relationship that real people would have! These are clearly two young teens who have no experience in any of this and have no idea what they're doing and are scared out of their wits, but are still trying so hard to make it work because they love each other that much. We see all the adorable handholding, pet names, funny bantering, cheek kissing, cuddling, geeking out over their shared interests, wanting to do things for each other, making excuses to spend time together, and just being a pair of lovestruck dorks. We also see them struggle, see them make mistakes, see them unintentionally be driven by their insecurities to accidentally hurt the other, see them get frustrated with each other, see them get into little fights, see them get worried over misunderstandings, see them seek out advice on what to do.

And we see them work through it! They calm down and talk things out! They try to respect each other's privacy, but also apologize when they screw up! They open up over what's been bothering them, they work on having healthy communication and openness about their problems even when every instinct tells them not to, they forgive and grow stronger through it, become better people because of it, because they mean that much to each other.

Like, seeing this much effort and authenticity the leads' romantic relationship is rare in kid shows in general. Heck, it's not that common in adult shows either! But to also see it from an openly gay couple, have them be the leads, have it be in a Disney cartoon, and also have all of the best kind of dynamics that shippers go crazy for is just nuts. I honestly can't think of many comparable examples. Normally when couples get into a fight in shows I watch, I roll my eyes, turn off the volume, and wait for the scene to be over, because it just feels like drama for drama's sake and I DON'T CARE! IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE TO WATCH! But here it just feels like it's coming from a real place and is actually working towards something substantial and meaningful. I'm actually invested in this in a way that I don't think I've ever been.

It's all anyone could have wanted from having their favorite pairing become canon and so, so, so much more. Dana and her crew not only understood the assignment, they did all of the extra credit. And I am quite excited to not only see where it goes in the future, but also what it ends up inspiring in future shows.

[dgcatanisiri]

Owo inviting herself on Detmer’s planning of a vacation in Hawaii?

LET THEM LESBIAN ALREADY! Stop teasing us and confirm it already!

Also, on a similar subject, Tarka and Olos were definitely romantic partners and I’ll fight anyone who says otherwise. And I’m of two minds of how understated it is, but it’s clear in the performance, between the cuddling and the handholding (I’m gonna call it a Korrasami shoutout even if it’s not). So I like that it’s NOT a thing to outright say, that they’re a same-sex pairing. Same time, though... The fact that I had to put a “I’ll fight anyone who says otherwise” comment in there kinda says that it probably still needs to be said outright.

[illusory-torrent]

I say this as a blacksun fan that's slowly had my hopes crushed over the years. I wish I could congratulate the bees on their ship inching ever closer to canon but the "will or won't they" crap the writers keep pulling is seriously pissing me off. The smugness of the wasps and punching down on blacksun is uncalled for. CRWBY must thrive on ship wars. All their actions do nothing but fuel the fire.

bumbleby is gonna be like every other wlw ship in recent history that becomes canon within the last episode. 

believe me, i get it. other wlw ships (korrasami, bubbline, rupphire, catradora) all had big corporations trying to censor them and stop them from happening. rooster teeth, however, started out as a small indie company that didn’t have to answer to any big corporation. there was no reason they couldn’t have made explicit bumbleby happen in the early volumes. 

if three volumes was enough for arkos, then it was enough for bumbleby. blake and yang should have had explicit confirmation of some sort prior to blake leaving for menagerie in v4. have blake and yang hook up prior to the fall of beacon. that way, blacksun would have had no baiting at all in volumes 4 and 5. 

if bumbleby was the plan from the beginning, the explicit signs should’ve been there, just as they were for the other heterosexual ships. furthermore, blacksun shouldn’t have had a cheek kiss prior to blake leaving in volume 6. sun should’ve gotten a hug and nothing else. 

the “will they, won’t they?” shit with bumbleby is getting old. either have them kiss or stop pretending you’re gonna make the ship canon. but every week during v8′s airing, people on twitter and tumblr were like, “this is it, guys! we’ll finally get the bee kiss this week!” and when it doesn’t happen, the same people go, “oh it makes sense not to have it this week, too much was going on. we’ll get it next week!” 

like... do these people not realize they’re getting baited week after week, volume after volume. are blake and yang even officially dating at this point? forehead touches and handholding are not placeholders for an actual confirmation of a ship. 

they’re 100% holding off on confirming bumbleby because they want to create a love triangle dilemma and create more relationship drama. 

and of course crwby thrives on ship wars. ship wars drive popularity in fandom. see: makorra vs korrasami, zutara vs kataang, cloti vs clerith, makoharu vs rinharu, and so on. crwby was even on the ship-it show this week discussing ships. that’s all this show has going for it now: relationship drama. 

i can only hope these damn rwby in-fandom ship wars die once the show ends.

[queenangst]

as someone who watched LoK, you're right on the mark! there was an earlier moment in the final season where it looked like Korra blushed after Asami complimented her haircut and at the time there was excitement but it was with a major dose of "this won't go anywhere and someone on the animation team decided to do this as a subtle fanservice moment."

And the finale was like. the undercurrent was that somehow she'd get back together with Mako (see: the "popping bottles when [ship] is canon" meme origin) right up until the final moments when all of us was very "are they really doing this? are we doing this!!"

And yeah, there wasn't kissing, but there was handholding and the trip to the spirit world was highly regarded as First Date Ideas. It's why Korrasami becoming canon is a Huge Deal, since this had never happened before. So many of the current queer rep that has happened in kids animation since then is attributed to that moment when they're holding hands and about to go on a journey together. There was shock and any lingering disbelief lasted only the hours until bryke made the announcement that it really happened

bingo my internet knowledge strikes again!

yeah i always think about like... lok being simultaneously really recent but also having come quite a long way. like there were so many people i followed posting about korrasami etc, it was a super big deal in the context of the time, and it's still a super big deal understanding korrasami as a canon, queer couple in kids' animation and pushing forward. considering these days creators still have to struggle really hard to get what they want on screen !!

[chasingtheavatar]

Korrasami should have been explicitly canon in the show (I mean like actually showing they were attracted to each other/dating)

Yeah I would have loved to see more of their relationship and just for their relationship to have the amount of screen-time/moments that Mako and Korra, Mako and Asami, or even Korra and Bolin got. I think they deserved to at least have a canon confirmation of their relationship, like they have in the comics. For the other canon ships in the show, attraction is clearly noted in the animation and blatantly stated through the dialogue, along with scenes of handholding, kissing, dates, etc. I completely agree with anon and think that Korrasami should have had this as well. However, there are many scenes that really showed the depth of their relationship as well, that we didn't see as much with the other ships in the show. For example the ending of season 3 really started to develop a deeper aspect to their relationship for me as a viewer. Also Asami offering to go spend countless months with Korra while she recovered, Korra writing exclusively to Asami, etc. Despite all of this I really wanted to see their relationship take off officially as well. They are both great characters and the love they have doesn’t go unnoticed throughout the series, I just wish they got the official ending they deserved. Korrasami is such an important canon relationship, given that during the time TLOK first aired, representation of wlw relationships in kids media was rare. Growing up there weren’t many kids’ shows I can remember with distinctive, canon LGBTQ+ representation. I really think that Korrasami paved the way for so many future fictional relationships in children's cartoons and that makes me really happy for future generations who get to grow up alongside them. 

[incarnateirony]

An important message for Destiel fandom

For years, and I do mean years, this fandom has cautiously guarded itself against Destiel content. Every analysis post always comes attached with some disclaimer of “this isn’t a promise,” “guard your own feelings,” etc. Which, I mean-- fair and responsible.

I feel like there’s been a shift this year where the fandom yelling queerbait has fallen away, because they recognize at-large the efforts going on in the writing room. Whether you’re caught in the loop of “yeah there’s text but people will argue so we’ll call it subtext” or “because it isn’t affirmed we can’t accept it as a whole” or camp “go go team clowns this shit’s already canon but I see more on the horizon”, overall the base line has changed. Nobody actively engaged in the modern show, modern fandom is widely yelling queerbait in bulk like years past, because they recognize the queer efforts from queer creators for queer content under shitty circumstances.

The shitty circumstances is the point of this post. I’m sure someone’s gonna decontextualize this though and say I’m telling people to settle, but that ain’t it at all. Wanting more is always fair. I’m outright clowning for a whole bunch of shit this year. But if I don’t get that stuff? 

That’s fine.

We’re at the end. People have so guarded their feelings for so many years, trying to compartmentalize them perpetually, trying to wait for The Winning Argument which itself is a transitory goalpost if you check any other fandom (Shameless is still eating at me with the “Mickey isn’t REALLY gay” argument), or whatever. 

There’s this feeling beneath the surface, this low simmering thing under the skin of “I can’t allow myself to enjoy what is happening until X thing happens” (eg, kiss, Love You, sex on the map table, whatever the hell it is), but you’re here, you’re watching this content, you’re seeing what’s being given, and somewhere inside you’re habballooing like a goddamn clown but you’re afraid to breathe. Maybe your friends are bitter. Maybe you feel you’ll get shut down for getting someone’s “hopes up.” 

But regardless of if any given checkbox is hit, most of you are getting it. Seeing it.

I just want to make sure everybody’s letting themselves feel it too.

This is it, this is our final run. We can hope all our checkboxes, Destiel or otherwise, are hit. There’s also no guarantee that anyone’s stuff outside of Gay Stuff is going to come to pass either. But we still have about half a season left to enjoy the ride, to invest our feelings in these characters, to love the story for what it’s trying to tell us.

Please, don’t sit here refusing content you want to love, putting up some brick wall on your heart only to be upset if [Checkbox] doesn’t happen. It’s critically stripping you of enjoyment between here and there, between now and then, and most of all leaving high potential for you to skip the Fun Phase entirely and hop right into raging anger where the entire product is soiled for you.

And if you’re following blogs that keep telling you to Not Feel Feelings, that are making you put up this wall, please, for your sake. Get rid of it. You don’t need that in your life.

Is it fair to be disappointed if [Checkbox] doesn’t happen at the end, sure. But you’ve at least been able to live this ride as best it can be delivered to us, without spending your whole time fretting if [Checkbox] will be reached or not, or worse, making a miserable environment to people who don’t even care about [Checkbox]. 

It’s our last run guys. Live it. Love it. Clown it. Ignore the haters, laugh them off with the blatant transparency of what’s going on. After all, this is the year of antis screaming off about Destiel Glory Holes, the Destihellers writing the show, of arguing down established relationships as problematic -- yes, arguing it from the angle OF established relationship. Like if the haters can see it and spend their whole day raging at it, why are you worried about when they put on a fake mask and turn around to slap at you about it to take your joy away? Don’t just take your own away. As much as they hate it, you can love it.

Maybe it’s partially a generational thing, or a US thing (eg people in countries that had more progressive cinema origins like the UK may have trouble grokking US issues -- after all, the UK is the only reason the Hays Code was officially surrendered, because assbags couldn’t stop your gay films from coming in so it became pointless), but personally, I’m used to it. It sucks when it’s like that. If it’s Xena and the Energy Transfer Kiss or Korrasami and the handholding into the distance, if it’s exploiting the vagueries of the english language on Love, but ultimately built in an entire framework. Don’t sit waiting for how people will disingenuously steal your joy in their own misery. Love what you love, and enjoy what you have, because after this-- that’s it folks.

It’s okay to clown. Straight people clown for their OTPs all the time and don’t always get it the exact way they want either (Imagine if Detty had annoying heterophobic antis after the way the show ended with a vague ask-out to dinner and nothing else that we all, as humans, understand the meaning of with social codes). It’s okay to be disappointed if you don’t get X thing. But the danger is in setting yourself up only for guardedness, disappointment, and anger, rather than enjoying the stuff you want to enjoy. And generally, if you introspect, for goalposts that, while nice and we probably all want, someone else set out for you and defined and spread through circuits as What Must Be Checkboxed For You To Enjoy It.

It’s okay to clown loud and proud. And at this point, I use “clown” loosely, because the whole fandom is a circus and the ringmaster is writing the show.

[shortkingvi]

Like a love that we have She-ra and The Owl House breaking big barriers but like years before I had to subsist off the Korrasami handhold finale. Like I feel people forget how big of a deal that was. And it was in 2014! Before that I had to search youtube for gay scenes in obscure movies or tv shows.

yes!!! having to live off of crumbs for years means that i will ALWAYS make an effort to make as many queer pairings in the media i consume

if i am provided with even the barest hint of content that i can theorize and have fun with, i will do so because i know what it’s like to not have that opportunity

[fandomshatelgbtqpeople]

I'd like to add about the korrasami confirmed ending: it mirrors the kataang ending except for the kiss. ATLA ended with Aang going out alone to a balcony, soon followed by Katara. They share a look then hug then the scene shows the backdrop of the sun (Light) behind them then a closeup of them kissing, then after the camera zooms towards the light behind them. PART I

LoK ended w Korra taking a moment to herself (followed by a Tenzin talk) then Asami comes and Tenzin leaves them alone. Korra and Asami share a hug, talk about a "just the two of us vacation" then the scene shows a wider shot with the spirit portal (Light) behind them. They share a look, then there's a closeup of their handholding which mirrors the kataang kiss then zoom in towards the light. PART II

Good point! - mod a