#Sherlock Holmes and John Watson were Queer

[yonpote]

i guess another thing is like. what about crackships. do people still crackship? just shipping characters or people who have no reason to ever be together? or like shipping pairings that arent canon and not really caring about them being canon? i think maybe... ok i have to word what im trying to articulate carefully... but sometimes i think that the height of discussion of queerbaiting ended up putting this massive emphasis of canon representation (which is undeniably important!!!) that fandom shipping culture has completely shifted and doesn't really leave a lot of room for imagination, at least in the mainstream. like, whether or not a pairing ends up together in the end has always been kinda important in fandoms, but since most of the popular ships have been m/m (and before queerbaiting became more commonplace as a term) there was just kind of a quiet understanding that yeahhh they're probably NOT gonna end up together at the end...

i'll give bbc sherlock as an example. actually sherlock might be the perfect example as it came out around the turn of the 00s-10s decade which is exactly when the conversation surrounding queerness in media began to shift. now i fell off sherlock after season two so my knowledge of the show after that is limited, but from my pov of that early fandom, i don't really remember anyone clamoring for johnlock to end up confirmed canon. i mean people wanted it to happen ofc but it felt like wishful thinking rather than something that could actually happen. it wasn't until fans had this direct communication with the creators of the show that they realized maybe they COULD have an impact on what happens, applying pressure on them as queer representation in media became more of a hot button issue. and ultimately i DO think that the chemistry of john and sherlock as a couple should have been something that the creators took more seriously, regardless if they became Canon. i mean people have been shipping holmes/watson and even holmes/moriarty since the books were first published probably. so the showrunners dropped the ball on that big time in the end, but imo it wasnt until queer representation became viewed as more than just a pipe dream that johnlock's Endgame Status became of utmost importance.

thats kinda what i mean by "i"d ship dnp even if they werent straight up a couple" and why i mentioned feeling a tiny bit bad for the frerardies in the shipping poll lol cuz like a ship being Real probably shouldn't be what makes a pairing good, and if we treat that with extreme importance then we lose out on the transformative side of fandom, the fact that we can make something "real" even if it's not word-of-god Canon.

[msclaritea]

Morris Chestnut To Star In ‘Watson’ As Drama Gets CBS Series Order – Deadline

Dear God. They just refuse to stop, don't they? I have nothing against Morris Chestnut but the Sherlock Holmes stories are Queered, Arthur Conan Doyle WAS racist and all I see is yet another black actor being used for propaganda.

Morris Chestnut

Diondre Jones

CBS has handed a straight-to-series order to Watson, from writer Craig Sweeny (Elementary), Aaron Kaplan’s Kapital Entertainment and CBS Studios, for the 2024-25 broadcast season. Morris Chestnut is set to play the title role and executive produce the medical drama inspired by the characters from Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes mysteries.

Last January, CBS ordered two drama pilots, Elsbeth starring Carrie Preston and Matlock starring Kathy Bates, as well as writers rooms for two medical drama projects, Watson and The Pact.

In anticipation of a series pickup, CBS and CBS Studios recently attached Chestnut as the lead and Larry Teng as director and executive producer of the first episode, paving the way to a formal greenlight.

The Pact, from the CBS/NAACP Production Venture, has been on a different timetable. It remains in development after attaching a supervising writer just before the start of the WGA strike and is on track to go to a writers room in the near future.

Watson is described as a medical show with a strong investigative spine, featuring a modern version of one of history’s greatest detectives as he turns his attention from solving crimes to solving medical mysteries. The series lives in a universe where Holmes has been killed off, something Conan Doyle reportedly intended to do with The Final Problem.

In Watson, a year after the death of his friend and partner Sherlock Holmes at the hands of Moriarty, Dr. John Watson (Chestnut) resumes his medical career as the head of a clinic dedicated to treating rare disorders. Watson’s old life isn’t done with him, though—Moriarty and Watson are set to write their own chapter of a story that has fascinated audiences for more than a century.

“We are thrilled to feature such a beloved character from the world of Sherlock Holmes at the center of this series and have it brought to life by Morris Chestnut in a fresh and unexpected take on the immortal doctor,” said Amy Reisenbach, President, CBS Entertainment. “Craig Sweeny’s bold new vision for the complex Dr. Watson deftly interweaves rich character storytelling with edge-of-your-seat medical mysteries.”

Sweeny, who spent five years on CBS’ Sherlock Holmes/Dr. Watson procedural Elementary, most of them as executive producer, wrote the pilot and will serve as showrunner on Watson. He executive produces the series alongside Chestnut, Kapital’s Kaplan and Brian Morewitz as well as Shäron Moalem MD, PhD.

Watson is CBS’ third new scripted series headed to the 2024-25 season, joining Matlock and comedy Poppa’s House, whose launches were pushed from this season due to strike-related production delays.

This marks Chestnut’s return to the medical arena after his series regular roles as doctors on Fox’s The Resident and Showtime’s Nurse Jackie. He also played the lead, a pathologist, on Fox’s crime drama Rosewood.

Chestnut is currently developing a movie at Netflix, which he is producing and set to star in, and a series for BET, which he is executive producing — both through his MC8 Entertainment banner.

In 2023, Chestnut won his second NAACP award for for Peacock’s The Best Man: The Final Chapters. (His first was for his work on Nurse Jackie.) Also last year, he was cast as a series regular in the upcoming second season of Onyx’s drama series Reasonable Doubt on Hulu and in the upcoming BET+ series Diarra from Detroit.

Chestnut is known for his memorable roles in films such as Boyz n the Hood, The Brothers, The Perfect Holiday, Think Like A Man, and most notably, The Best Man franchise, which he revisited with the Peacock limited series revival. In 2022, he received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Chestnut is repped by Verve and LINK Entertainment.

[starfruitsomething]

I don't care if they never kissed- Johnlock could not be more canon.

[mikasnazz]

Sometimes I can’t tell if I’m pushing my ‘gay agenda’ onto shows or if the shows are pushing their gay agenda onto me

Watching Sherlock holmes right now and .. I’m not going crazy am I???

[lokiiied]

i am a child of johnlock…and these idiots

[nyxshadowhawk]

...when we were sharing rooms as bachelors in Baker Street.

“This is my intimate friend and associate, Dr. Watson...”

THEY WERE ROOMMATES

[n0ts0surel0ck]

Just to put my two cents in on the whole no Johnlock in Podlock situation;

There’s no one correct way to interpret the Holmes/Watson relationship. It feels very clearly queer to me because I am a queer person who is attached to these stories. Others might not interpret it that way. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong or I’m wrong. Just ya know. Two different people interpreting a character in the public domain.

Something that encouraged me is that Joel said they had no plans for any of the main three to get together. I was nervous, especially after the Gloria Scott that we were heading for John/Mariana territory (which, to be clear, I do like them together. Marianna is just so cool. I know she’s a stand in for Mrs. Hudson of course, but I think she’s also a stand in for Mary Morsten and the best portrayal of her I’ve seen so far. I wouldn’t be upset, per se about these two being together, it’s just…. Another straight romance for John isn’t really breaking new ground).

I really hope that the Podlock team sticks to their guns here. I quite like the idea of a strictly serialized set of stories, with three characters who clearly share love for each other. Because they don’t have any intentions of giving any of them a romance, it means we as an audience can fill in the blanks for ourselves. Yes, we want clear explicit queer representation. But I don’t think Sherlock & Co. has to be that, ya know?

Me personally, I will be listening to the episodes and knowing that the three of them are doing it sloppy style in between cuts. You, other nebulous listener, can cast them as sexless crime solving creatures. You, other nebulous listener, can make Johnlock canon for you. Idk man. This isn’t BBC Sherlock. I don’t feel like the Podlock team is dangling a queer love story in front of us and snatching it away at the last second.

I think Joel and the team saying explicitly here at the beginning that Johnlock isn’t the plan is actually like… really nice. They could get a lot of listeners by going “ooo maybe John and Sherlock will kiss this episode you don’t know!!” Instead, they’re giving their queer audience the respect they deserve by saying “that isn’t the textual story we’re telling, but if you want to read it’s subtext that way, they belong to us as much as they do to us.”

I just really respect that, I guess.

[super-who-locked-me-in-here]

Pieces of media my mom has seen and the popular MLM ships in them that she doesn't think are gay:

MCU - Stucky (note that she does get a kick out of Stony stuff and she believes wholeheartedly that those two hate fucked in a not-filmed scene of Avengers 2012 so this is not about her thinking "oh Captain America is so straight-laced because he's the ideal American man" or anything)

MCU - Poolverine (she's fully aware and accepting of the fact that both Logan and Wade are canonically queer characters but she thinks all the flirting Wade did with Logan in the newest movie didn't necessarily mean anything because "he talks like that to everyone". Side note though: while she believes Wade should be with Vanessa, she does think that Logan can and should shoot his shot with Wade after Vanessa inevitably dies since he and Wade are both immortal. It's just that she thinks Wade should get his happy ending with Vanessa first.)

MCU - Lokius ("Mama have you ever seen a man fix another man's tie like that" "No but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen! I wouldn't know though; it's been like 15 years since I worked a corporate job.")

Sonyverse/Marvel - Symbrock ("They literally have a symbiotic relationship. That doesn't make them gay." So I showed her the comics where Eddie calls Venom "love" and gives birth to Venom's babies and she said "Fine you win but please never show me alien man birth ever again."

Supernatural - Destiel ("They're like Steve and Bucky! They're brothers in arms! They've been through hell and back together!" Note that she only watched through season 5 but she does know about a lot of their later interactions because I told her about them)

House M.D. - Hilson ("Dot I watched that whole show and they were never anything more than good friends" "What about when House admitted to thinking about Wilson during sex? What about that whole episode where they pretended to be gay for each other to prove a point to a neighbor and Wilson proposed? What about that whole episode where Wilson had to furnish the apartment and House told him not to let a woman tell him what to do but Wilson let House tell him what to do? What about the whole ending?" "Why can't two men just be close enough friends to joke about that stuff with each other?"

Real life - Me and my best friend of the same gender orientation who I've kissed multiple times and have had a requited crush on for years that neither of us have ever persued for logistical reasons (I literally used me and this friend to try and prove my mom wrong about Stucky and Destiel. I asked her if she thought me and this friend were like brothers and she said yes with a straight face)

Sherlock - Johnlock (to be fair this is the BBC ship name, but she doesn't think any iteration of Sherlock Holmes and John Watson are the slightest bit gay. "They're business partners and roommates.")

Our Flag Means Death - BlackHands (Should go ahead and say that I'm not really a BlackHands shipper myself; we both really enjoyed Stede and Ed's romance in the show. BUT it takes so much away from Izzy's character and his development if you don't acknowledge that he was jealous of Stede and in love with Ed, at least a little. My mom thought Izzy was just an extremely loyal first mate.)

Also, for the record, I'm not trying to call my mom out as homophobic. I'm queer and so are two of my siblings and she's very supportive of us. There are gay romcoms she enjoys like Our Flag Means Death and Red, White, and Royal Blue. The reason I'm making this list is because I think it's really funny how she doesn't understand the concept of queerbaiting (not that all of the above listed ships are queerbaiting). She thinks things are either explicitly straight or explicitly queer (whether it's gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc) and cannot comprehend the idea that some character relationships are deliberately pushing the boundaries of straight friendships into queer relationships to get more minority viewers and I think her explanations are funny.

[wheeloffortune-design]

'You need to understand,' I tell my brother with a manic look in my eyes, 'that, as a community, we were used to queerbaiting. We were used to crumbs. If a show had two semi-attractive male leads with a minimum of chemistry, we shipped them. Yeah, sure, it could be cringe, but it's not like we had a lot of queer characters to obsess over.

'And most of us were girls, right, or at least were subjected to media aimed at girls all our lives, and we were trained to recognize romance. We know the story beats, the dialogue, the framing, the language used in media that says this is a romantic scene. And then, there was a decade or two where all the stories were about male friendship (but let's be honest all the stories are about male friendship since bloody Gilgamesh and Enkidu, but don't get me started on that)-- and anyway, they kept using all those framing devices for romance to talk about friendship. The silences, the stares, the jokes, the sacrifices and promises and-- you get what I mean. So of course we shipped the hell out of these guys.

'And if they really wanted us to ship straight couples, maybe they should have given bigger roles to women, huh. But that was the scene: great shows with a male lead and his best friend, and they were all interesting and handsome and they faced adversity together, and overall had the most romantic story arcs without being romantically together. Yeah, I know you've seen the Winter Soldier.

'So we were pretty okay with crumbs. We made mountains out of crumbs. It was fine, relatively speaking.

'And then there was Sherlock,' I say, waving at the tv, where episode one is on pause on a frame of John Watson licking his lips while he asks Sherlock if he has a boyfriend. 'That show brought it all to eleven. The handsomeness, the chemistry, the drama, the stares. The jokes about them being a couple, so many jokes. You know that haha are you a married couple is a romance trope, right?

'The actors made acting choices that hinted at attraction, and the directors kept those choices and framed them in images and music and timing-- because everything in a show is a choice. Those are the choices they made.

'So of course we went crazy.

'And the people who made that show loved the attention. They had fun with us, until it was too much for them. And then they started making fun of us.

'I think it kinda broke us, as a community. Because we loved the show, and the characters, and the actors, and the writers. And the show kept framing the story in a way that said "You're right! This is a romance!"

'And then the interviews went from hinting at romance to plainly mocking us. Haha those silly fangirls, they see gay stuff, but Shelock Holmes isn't gay, what are they thinking, huh. Silly little girls.

'I'll be honest, it hurt. And it's not like there was a lot of queer media to focus on either, at least not mainstream, well produced shows like that. It took many years after that whole debacle to get canon queer characters. We're still all surprised that Our Flag Means Death had a real kiss.

'So yeah,' I sigh, looking at the paused tv, 'imagine, in an era where queerbaiting was the norm, to become the one show that became synonymous with queerbaiting.'

I unpause.

"It's fine, it's all fine," says the tv.

'Yeah right,' I scoff.

[lisbeth-kk]

Sherlock fandom. (TW: domestic violence)

Building Walls

Both had been scared as boys. John of the dark, Sherlock of the light. 

John’s vivid imagination made up monsters under the bed and kidnappers in the woods around the tent when the Watsons went camping. 

“Fear is a weakness,” John’s father growled when his son was shaking and sobbing, terrified of the horrors of the darkness around him.

The solution was to beat the fear out of John while using spite words like coward, squeamish, queer, faggot, weak.

It took some time before it worked. For every stroke from his father’s hand or belt, John’s protecting wall was reinforced with a new brick, until his father was satisfied, and John’s fear had dissipated. So it seemed anyway.

***

Sherlock was a night owl from an early age but was forced to live in the light where others could see his aberrant behaviour. His cousins, aunts and uncles all called him freak, queer, weak, abnormal.

He just wanted to be left alone with his experiments, which he preferred to conduct in the dark hours.

“Fearing the light is a sickness,” his mother told him, and caught him in an iron grip before he could abscond and ordered him to sit in the conservatory with her and his cousins for hours.

When he finally was released, his head throbbed, his eyes stung, and he felt bone tired. He cried when he woke in the morning, realising that he’d been too exhausted to escape sleep.

“You must not let them see your weakness, brother mine,” Mycroft advised him, so Sherlock built a wall around himself and called it his Mind Palace.

***

In the dark Afghan desert, John met many soldiers who were afraid of what they could not see, and with good reason. He knew he should be terrified, and deep down he was, but he had a responsibility as a captain. His wall was strong and didn’t crack until a bullet came out of the velvet night and found his shoulder.

Back in the radiant city that was London, John’s wall crumbled. His mind was a dark hole even if he was surrounded by light.

“Nothing ever happens to me,” became a mantra he lived by, until he met Mike Stamford, and later Sherlock Holmes.

The brief and totally ridiculous encounter in the lab at Barts, lifted a vail, and a glimpse of sunshine entered John’s mind.

***

For years Sherlock lived in the blissful darkness, but people still interfered and made his life miserable. His mother and brother in particular. So, he sought out company that at first was a relief, but later put him on the path towards addiction and destruction.

Stumbling over Greg Lestrade’s crime scene, high as a kite, but still capable of observing and deducing what had happened, saved Sherlock’s life. For the first time in years, someone was interested in the knowledge he possessed; signs that a victim had been poisoned, different traces of mud or ash. 

“Get clean, and I’ll call you when we’re out of our depths,” Lestrade said.

Mycroft probably ensured Lestrade’s promotion after that, when Sherlock explained, and begged Mycroft to take him to rehab.

The incongruous scale Sherlock used to categorise the crimes Lestrade called him about, wasn’t all about how interesting a case was, but had more to do with the time of day. Only a serial killer could make Sherlock attend a crime scene in broad daylight. The darkness was his friend, and his dramatic persona thrived and added mystery to it all when he whirled around in his beloved Belstaff and polished Italian shoes.

John was like the sun and should frighten Sherlock with his warmth and incandescence. Instead, Sherlock felt an instant calmness fall over him when his fingers brushed John’s as he took the phone John offered him the day they met. 

***

John’s fear of the dark night vanished when he saw Sherlock together with Jeff Hope, and his hand was steady when he shot the awful cabbie.

Sherlock’s case scale suddenly changed, and he and John turned up at crime scenes at all hours, even when the sun shone bright and clear.

The only fear they had left, was losing each other.

----------------------------------------------------------------

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[crayycrayon]

SHERLOCK & CO HOT TAKE WARNING

okay before i start this post i am going to clarify. i am gay (unlabelled) and i ship holmes/watson in practically every adaptation.

can you guys fucking shut up about sherlock & co "queerbaiting". can two men seriously just not be friends anymore?

some of you seriously need to take off your yaoi goggles off and learn what a male friendship is. NOTHING in sherlock & co so far between sherlock and john has been blatantly queer (nor do i believe it has been in subtext). "what about this scene!!!" i need you to understand this is your HEADCANON. this is you HEADCANONING what you see from a scene.

i love sherlock x john in sherlock & co a lot! but i recognise that nothing so far has been gay between them because their friendship is STILL DEVELOPING. i seriously cannot comprehend how people are ALREADY accusing this series of queerbaiting if it doesn't make them canon. YOU GUYS ARE THE REASON PEOPLE DONT TAKE QUEERBAITING CLAIMS SERIOUSLY ANYMORE!

adding onto my previous post about mariana, this exact reason is why people belittle her character down as a "threat" to a gay ship (even though she's ALSO only acted as a friend to sherlock and john)

it'd be nice if it became canon. id be super happy if it became canon. but i am not expecting it to be canon. i will not claim from what we have seen so far that we were queerbaited if it doesn't become canon. and if you do (from what we have seen so far, if the series seriously does queerbait us ovb this doesn't apply) i think you're a dumbass.

[supervisionx]

I keep seeing posts that Hannibal is queerbait (not necessarily on Tumblr but it's really prevalent on Twitter and tiktok) so I'm going to break down how it is NOT queerbait under 'keep reading' (long ass rant ahead)

I'm going to use Supernatural and Sherlock as an example because they are both pretty infamous for queerbaiting, but this isn't to make fun of those shows altogether.

In both Supernatural and Sherlock, the main 'ships' are between Sherlock Holmes / John Watson and Castiel / Dean Winchester. In their respective shows, there is almost nothing stopping them from getting together. In both cases, they are friends, have good chemistry, spend a frequent amount of time together, and do not have any significant others. The only thing stopping them from being in a relationship is that one or both of them are presumably straight or are simply not in love with each other.

In Hannibal, however, one is an FBI agent, and the other is a serial killer. There is an in-show reason that would stop (especially Will Graham) from wanting to be in a relationship with the other despite personal feelings. Even in earlier seasons, when Will Graham did not know Hannibal was a serial killer, Hannibal was still his therapist.

Next, what makes the queerbait stand out especially in Sherlock and Supernatural, is that every time anything is suggested between the two popular ships, it is often played off as a joke.

Think of the scene in Sherlock where John fumbles asking Sherlock if he has a boyfriend. The scene where Sherlock is about to kiss Moriarty is presented as a flashback by a crazy fan (making fun of the viewer for thinking Sherlock could be in a male/male relationship)

In Supernatural, there is a scene where castiel is alluded to being teleported naked on top of Dean's car, dialog such as "Get out of my ass" "I was never in your..." and an awkward pause. These are all one-off jokes, scenes, etc. Meant to allude to queerness without having to actually commit to it.

In Hannibal, however, no scene that alludes to queerness is played as a joke. Hannibal is genuine when he says he cares for Will, when he is worried the other man has died, the constant touches, and where he compares their relationship to Achilles and Patroclus. (Do I even have to mention the "Is Hannibal... In love with me?" Scene?)

"But Hannibal and Will never kissed / never had a relationship!"

Okay, it's fair to be upset that the pair never kissed or had a full relationship established, but you have to remember Hannibal was canceled. Sherlock and Supernatural both came to their conclusions naturally and decided to continue never establishing a proper relationship between their queerbaited characters.

(I'm not counting that scene where castiel says "I love you" to Dean and gets sent to Super Hell as a relationship. You could argue that this makes Castiel explicitly queer and therefore not queerbait, but it still feels more like executives doing the same thing as the joke part of this argument; not wanting to commit to making him queer and throwing in a one-off line. Plus, this does not excuse baiting Dean as queer and baiting the relationship between Dean and Castiel as more than friendship)

However, Hannibal never got to reach its natural conclusion. More seasons were planned, in which the creator of the show explicitly stated he wanted to explore the relationship between Hannibal and Will more in those seasons before being canceled. Being upset that they never kissed / had a relationship does NOT mean the show was queerbait.

[inevitably-johnlocked]

Five Fics Friday: June 21/24

Happy Friday everyone! I hope you all aren't as sweltering as I am, but even if you are, get comfy and cool and check out this week's selection of fics to get into the weekend! Enjoy!

RECENT MFLs

A Feverish Need by Lock_John_Silver (G, 1,305 w., 1 Ch. || Established Relationship, Lestrade Friendship, POV Greg, Sick Character, Worried John, Confessions) – John’s away on a conference and a phone call with Sherlock, makes him worried because Sherlock’s acting weird. Well, weirder than normal. John texts Greg and begs him to check on the madman. Greg’s in for quite a few surprises when he gets to Baker Street.

Two Dozen Kilometres North of Berlin by stopthat (T, 2,682 w., 1 Ch. || Post-TRF/Hiatus, Alternating POV, Angst with Happy Ending, Reunion, Bed Sharing, First Kiss) – “How am I meant to forgive you?” John whispers, the moment calling for quiet, the question heavy and harsh. Sherlock thinks of what they’ve both been through, each suffering in solitude, existing in a divided nightmare, several worlds apart. “Perhaps you’re not,” he says, closing his eyes against the inescapable dark.

The Future isn't Binary by topsyturvy_turtely (T, 4,570 w., 1 Ch. || Gender Confusion, Nonbinary Sherlock, Established Relationship, Feminine Sherlock, Shopping, Makeup, LGBTQ Themes, Gay Sherlock, Bisexual John, Anxiety Attacks, Mental Health Issues) Harry Watson, her fiancée and John help Sherlock exploring his gender: Harry is the queer expert, Nora is the expert for clothes and makeup. And John... well, John doesn't really do much but nearly drooling upon seeing Sherlock in feminine clothes. Part 20 of turtely's OTP challenge

The Years Keep Returning Me To You by helloliriels (T, 4,815 w., 2 Ch. || Sherlock's Birthday, Cake, Jealous John, Texting) – 58 Texts. John had counted. Before the woman died ... Now there were 77. Sherlock deserved to be happy. Why wouldn't he reply? It's not every day you get a second chance ...

The Disappointed Optimist's Guide to Sharing a Flat with a Madman by Calais_Reno (T, 9,339+ w., 4/8 Ch. || WIP || Alternate Universe || Fake / Pretend Relationship, Misunderstandings, Victor Trevor, Falling in Love, Couple For a Case, Strangers to Lovers) – Despairing over his horrible living situation, John Watson has a small bit of luck when he meets Victor Trevor, who is trying to get out of his lease. Taking over the lease will mean moving in with Sherlock Holmes, but compared with his current horrible flatmates... Seriously, how bad can it be? A couple of brats who mess up the flat, make fun of him, and eat his food. Or a bloke who doesn’t talk and sometimes plays the violin. He can stick it out for two months...

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

Regarding queerbaiting: Sherlock is one of the more famous examples, and the tumblr drama surrounding it is an... interesting story that I think is worth knowing if you want to understand the queerbait allegations.

The show, made and set in the 2010s, liked to poke fun at John Watson for being a straight man shacking up with another single dude. The show's creators -- one of whom is a gay man himself -- were born in 60s, so I see these jokes as two guys who were adults during the height of AIDS and Thatcherism taking delight in the fact they're now living in a world where queerness is largely accepted and somewhat normalized. A straight guy being forced to constantly defend himself from nonchalant assumptions that the man he's living with is his gay lover is funny when he's not in any danger of being hate-crimed over it, right?

(I'm not a fan of the joke personally, but I get it.)

They really liked this stupid joke though, so they used it again and again and again, to the point that young fans started to become convinced it was hinting at something. I can't blame them: there was even a lesbian character who fell for Sherlock and explicitly compared herself to John as someone who wasn't into men and yet was just so spellbound by this one special detective boi.

It was pretty lesbophobic imo, which should have been a massive red flag as to how the showrunners really felt about queer characters...

...But where the show went from annoying to actively hostile was the mystery of how Sherlock survived his apparent death at the end of season 2. The showrunners swore up and down it was solvable... and then when the next season aired, the "solution" was "lol who cares how he did it, this is a ~*character driven story*~ and only stupid obsessed idiots would want to solve the mystery. 🤣🤣🤣"

Make no mistake, they singled out the mlm shippers specifically for mockery -- there's a group of Sherlock Holmes conspiracy theorists in the show who argue over a theory that Holmes and Moriarty staged the death together and then kissed about it. (The viewer is clearly meant to laugh at this.)

Some of the Johnlockers on tumblr refused to believe this was happening to them and doubled down and convinced themselves there was going to be an amazing Johnlock plot twist at the end of season 4. My understanding (which might be wrong, I wasn't in the fandom) is that this contingent was largely composed of naive queer teenagers who blindly trusted a handful of influential adults who insisted that the show was deep and clever and didn't hate its fans.

So I can definitely sympathize with the folks who fear Byler is just queerbait. This too is a mlm fandom made up of naive teenagers trusting the adults who swear that the secret gay plot twist is totally gonna happen this time, trust me bro it's not called Surface Things.

And, look. I think it's very sensible to be skeptical of random strangers on the internet who insist they have the answers, no matter how authoritative they might sound. Keep on doing that, folks. 👍

But I think that principle applies just as much to the "this is just like Sherlock" doomers as it does to the "anyone who thinks Byler won't happen has no media literacy" lot. Yes, it's always possible that the Duffers were queerbaiting us all along... but the way Sherlock and Stranger Things approach queerness truly is like night and day.

Huh, well, if what you say is accurate, then it sounds like the Holmes writers were just jerks overall. I can see the joke, as you explain it. I may not think it appropriate to make it a running gag, but it's good for a chuckle or two. If it was truly presented as a joke, then it would be on the fans for misinterpreting it, but I don't know enough about how it was presented to know how easy it would be for fans to make that conclusion.

To me, it only makes it more apparent that things on Stranger Things are "night and day," as you put it. Will's feelings, and Robin's, for that matter, are not treated as jokes. They're treated as dramatic, emotional parts of their individual arcs. In Will's case, his happiness is linked to his relationship with Mike, which is complicated by the fact that he doesn't think he'll get to have a romantic relationship with him, or at all really.

I prefer to think the Duffers are better than whoever was responsible for what you described. While it all remains to be seen, they deserve the benefit of the doubt, for now.

[aveline-amelia]

So I literally just came across a dumb homophobic (actually anti gay men) post, so... a rant

So I ran across a post about the Original Holmes ACD canon - not BBC Sherlock. I was not even looking up Sherlock related stuff.

This is mainly a BBC Sherlock blog, so felt the need to make clear. Not about BBC Sherlock this time.

I have not read the ACD Canon. It is very hard for me to pay attention for more than 5 minutes. (It's not a TikTok thing, I promise). Also if anyone is a queer Holmes historian/academic, please feel free to join in. Or just if someone has better knowledge than me. This is all second hand information but I stand behind the message nonetheless. You decide how credible this makes me.

Arthur Conan Doyle couldn't have written Sherlock Holmes as gay even if he wanted to.

He couldn't have written Sherlock Holmes and Dr John Watson as a same sex couple even if he wanted to.

He would have gotten arrested. He would have been imprisoned or sent to a labor camp.

It's what happened to Oscar Wilde, who he was friends with. Wilde's writing was used as evidence against him. Namely, The Picture of Dorian Grey.

No, claiming Sherlock Holmes is gay and was in a relationship with Dr Watson is not erasing asexuality. If the books were written today and the author said Holmes is ace, then yes, that could be seen as erasure.

Claiming Sherlock Holmes is gay is not disrespectful to ACD.

Claming Holmes and Watson were a couple who were hiding the truth from the readers due to a fear of persecution in not disrespectful to ACD. It has actual backing in Canon (them fleeing the same year as Wilde's trial). It's about playing the Game and treating Watson as an unreliable narrator.

If you believe claiming a character of a certain an author is gay is disrespectful to them, ask yourself why. Check yourself.

ACD can't tell us what his intentions were is because he is deceased. He's passed away. Unfortunately that means he will never be able to tell us the truth. Now, if you believe in The Death of The Author, authorial intent might not matter to you anyway.

Also, the people claiming this are in large part queer women, not gay men. So no, gay men aren't making it all about themselves. But nice try. ;)

Also I really wish asexual people would stop using the same rethoric as right wing Christian conservatives (why does everything have to be GAY! Gays are everywhere and I am sick of hearing about them!!!). As a bi ace woman, stop using as a shield, and if you are ace yourself, you're making us all look bad. Just stop.

[anneangel]

A note on BBC John's silly behavior ⬇️

First, why does he care so much about what 'people might say'? It's the 21st century, it's not like someone can legally destroy them for it. The only thing that might break is John ego if he isn't called 'straight', it seems. A person who needs so much to ensure this, all the time, shows an insecure.

It's like any characteristic, whoever has and is sure of it doesn't need to reaffirm it to others and little is shaken when put to the test, whoever doesn't have it or is insecure about it will insist on reaffirming it all the time.

Where does John fit in with all the "people might talk", "I am not gay" and "we not a couple!" ???

Realize that Sherlock doesn't show the same insecurity as John, he doesn't need to reaffirm anything, whatever it is, he's sure of it and knows he doesn't owe anyone satisfaction, and little is shaken if someone doubts him, he doesn't cares about what 'they might talk', because he doesn't need other people's opinions to ensure what he is or isn't.

but John, having anything to talk about and joke about, chooses always to raise this.

Excerpt from the Canonical books:

I should recommend you also to send a note by the cabman to your wife to say that you have thrown in your lot with me" say Holmes to me.

It was difficult to refuse any of Sherlock Holmes’s requests, for were always so exceedingly definite, and put forward with such a quiet air of mastery. (...) I could not wish anything better than to be associated with my friend in one of those singular adventures which were the normal condition of his existence. (...)

"Now, Watson,” said Holmes (...). “You’ll come with me, won’t you?".

“If I can be of use.”

“Oh, a trusty comrade is always of use; and a chronicler still more so. My room at The Cedars is a double-bedded one.”

“The Cedars?”

“Yes; that is Mr St. Clair’s house. I am staying there while I conduct the inquiry.”

“Where is it, then?”

“Near Lee, in Kent. We have a seven-mile drive before us.”

“But I am all in the dark.”

“Of course you are. You’ll know all about it presently. Jump up here (...)".

And

(...) he was exceedingly loath to communicate his full plans to any other person until fulfilment. It came no doubt from his own masterful nature, which loved to dominate and surprise those who were around him. Partly also from his professional caution (...)".

Yes, Watson's first thought is to question the place, and wanting to know how Holmes is proceeding, although Holmes likes to have control over what to reveal and when.

Modern John's first thought would be: 'people might to talk'.

Oh, they seem so worried, john? And even if they did, they would have real reasons!

So, keep calm, John. It's not like you're going to be publicly rejected for 'committing a crime', go through a trial that exposes you and arrested by the police for it, you would not be killed by hanging, you would not be obliged to do forced labor, nor would you be forced to undergo chemical castration...

It's not like it's going to ruin your life if someone thinks you're gay and in a romantic relationship with Sherlock, John!

It shouldn't be a laughing and joker either, because what's the fucking problem with it?

Did you really think people wouldn't talk, john?

Oh, of course Sherlock acts like "I'm awesome" to the point of winking like a "nice guy", of course, did he do that to Anderson too? Donovan? Dimmock? For Greg? Sherlock wink at everyone he's just met. OK. He would wink to anyone who would share a room with him? Well, he seemed really desperate for a place on Baker Street! OK, I believe. Lmao.

But John is ALL the time like:

And if it's not for his ego or insecure then...

It's 'like fun' at first, but nasty when you think about 'what the show is mocking'. From the beginning this show laughed at the fans who would read "between the lines". ????

Oh, I like BBC Sherlock, I really like, but honestly; they mocked some fans of Canon (queer and shipping Watson/Holmes fans) so much.