#and it's just A Lot of allonormativity i think

[gregorygerwitz]

am I the only one who thinks Buck and Tommy didn't immediately go off and have sex after the episode?

I don't even think they went home together

they kissed again before they went their separate ways, of course, but I don't think Buck would go off and get laid right after coming out to his entire family

in my head, Tommy said his congratulations, had cake, kissed Buck goodbye (privately, to not take attention away from the happy couple) and got an Uber back to harbor (because he's not going to pull Buck away from celebrating with his sister just because Tommy had a long shift and he wants to get his car and go home and shower and sleep)

idk. I'm seeing a lot of posts about them going off and fucking immediately (and I'm reading the fics, I'm having a great time, it's not about the fic and all that), and I'm wondering if my thoughts are logical at all or if I'm just ace and my brain doesn't automatically jump to sex as the defining moment in making a relationship more official or whatever

[redysetdare]

I always find it interesting that homosexual coded main characters don't really get shipped with every single side character of the opposite gender. And people get told off for shipping lesbian coded characters with men or gay coded characters with women by the rest of the fandom. But it's always aroace coded main characters getting shipped with every single side character that exists. And aroace fans getting told to "not generalise the entire aspec community" and "let people ship whomever they want!! It's just fiction!!!" as if we don't deserve to see characters living happy lives not being in relationships. And my biggest pet peeve is the trope of an aroace coded character "growing up and maturing" by... getting in a romantic/sexual relationship. Really shows what these people think about non-partnering aspec people irl. It's not just about fictional characters but they'll never admit it 🤷

I will say that there are some idiots out there who do ship gay characters with the opposite sex because they believe in people being able to ship whatever they want (which can lead to some disturbing places but I digress) But those kinds of ships do get a lot more push back and the same people who get after people for changing characters from gay to straight do not have the same energy when it happens to aro /aroace characters.

These same people are the ones calling for representation and how we treat characters identities in fiction does reflect how we view those identities in the real world EXCEPT when it comes to aspec characters. Suddenly then it's "fiction doesn't effect reality!!!" there's some double standards happening and it's beyond frustrating that no one seems to even notice and get mad at us for pointing it out.

Not to mention it's incredibly funny to hear them cry "Don't generalize the community" while they generalize the community by acting like every aro/ace/aroace person can date and have sex - which like you said ignored the existence of non-partnering identities and I'd like to add it also erases repulsed identities.

None of these people actually care about the aspecs who date or have sex. they don't actually care how those identities work or those experiences at all. they're using them as a get out of jail free card. a loop hole. a "I can't be homophobic because I have a gay best friend" card. They don't care about QPRs and how those relationships can be experience in wildly different ways. All they care about is if they get to have two characters kiss without having to genuinely look at themselves and their biases and possibly have the revelation that they might hold bigoted beliefs about aspec people.

And at this point I'd rather them admit that they don't actually care about aspec identities or experiences instead of tying themselves into knots to try and prove "I'm not aphobic!!!!" because they actively tried to find a loop hole to make it so that they could feel superior and in the right for being able to erase an entire identity of people.

[nico-moist-moses]

Ignoring the stupid concept of virginity-

Why do people get suprised I'm a virgin? People be asking me this question when I'm in the most nerdiest get-up: flannel, Camp Half-Blood shirt, carrying MTG cards and D&D dice at all times, watching anime, etc. Like look at me. I dont "get bitches." Im actually actively trying to not get bitches! I'm gray aroace over here!

[the-delta-quadrant]

as a sometimes sex-favourable, zero sexual attraction asexual, it really does bother me how many people think that being sex-favourable inherently means being grey-asexual, regardless of whether we actually experience attraction.

i've seen this from aces and allox people alike. it's like people are still holding on to this allonormative idea that the only reason to enjoy sex or want to have sex is attraction, and if someone is sex-favourable they must be allox or at least grey-asexual. you all are STILL perpetuating the "asexuality means no interest in sex ever" and every ace who does have some interested in sex must be grey-ace.

like, nah.

the fact that i sometimes want sex doesn't change that i never experience sexual attraction. it doesn't make me less asexual. it doesn't make me more allox.

sexual attraction and sex-favouribility stances aren't the same thing. sex-favourable aces without any sexual attraction exist. sex-averse allosexuals exist. it's annoying to see how many acespecs still don't understand the difference and perpetuate the same shit allosexuals do. action does not equal attraction.

this is not to say that someone can't label themself grey-ace based on sex-favourability, it's just really annoying to see sex-favourability included under grey-asexuality by default when lots of us are strictly asexual.

as a mainly sex-indifferent ace, i also wonder where they'd put us in this fucked up system? we can't be easily put in a "interested in sex" or "not interested in sex" box. are we grey-ace because we're not clearly saying no to sex as a whole? are we strictly ace because we're not clearly saying yes to sex as a whole?

iwish allox and ace people alike wouldn't disregard my lack of sexual attraction and only focus on sex-favourability. you're literally just trying to focus on the thing that makes me most similar to allos. stop

[museumofferedophelia]

A lot of "queer" culture is deeply intertwined with the emergent "what about me?" culture, which is centred around people believing that every single conversation and post on the internet has to relate to them or reflect them in some measure- and if something doesn't, it's exclusionist, or exposes some deep-seeded issue in society.

I'll give you some examples:

There'll be a post talking about enjoying intimacy with a partner, how sex can be so special and sensual. And it'll get flooded with asexuals talking about "allonormativity" and asking why society "revolves around icky sex," and how "we need to cultivate a culture that isn't so centred around sex, asexuals exist too."

Someone will post about how special it is to find "the one" and share your life with them. And a bunch of "polyamorous" people will insert themselves, complaining about how "you can share your life with more than one person," and "just people forgetting polyam people exist," and "mononormativity and polyam ersaure."

A lesbian will post about how she's happy that she'll never have a pregnancy scare, and will jokingly talk about how doctors are always confused when she tells them that. And a bunch of "trans lesbians" or women dating "trans lesbians" chime in being like "well, about that..." or "trans lesbians are valid" or "cisnormative terf, lesbians like girldick."

I think people are too immature and narcissistic to realise that people are talking about their own experiences. Not everything is meant FOR YOU. If it doesn't reflect you, ignore it and move on.

And if you want to see more representation that reflects you, go create your own rather than harassing people whose life experiences are vastly different to yours.

Not everything has to be about you.

[pigidin]

OKAY. Am I the only one fascinated by how much Alastor in s1 has interacted with other demons and built a potential for considerable amount of different, broad and unique relationships? With All of them being non-romantic/sexual?

I really don't wanna dive into the discourse of shipping coz honestly, I do think that erasing Al's aroaceness is not cool at all. Personally, I don't see him wishing any romance/sex at all, and well. Considering how platonic he actually is throughout the season, it kinda seems like people forget that friendship (or basically anything non rom-sex) exists in the first place.

Coz, like, let's see what we got::

Vox -- probably one-sided (psychosexual) crush from Vox with possible past friendship between them, them hating on each other yet having (used to have) some respect as well. The ANGST, the drama (for both of sides). Insert aroace troubles (possible aphobia from Vox? Or not? He may be biggest ally as well!) and Vox's petty feelings that are insanely interesting to explore (and laugh at).

Lucifer -- immediate hate that (with a course of events) can turn into forced bonding. The potential of queerplatonic parenting of Charlie is HUGE here. Insecurities from Al? Forced care? Banters? SHENANIGANS? Luci patching up Al after battle, prolly discovering his deal and them slowly bonding on shared interests? Hey.

Rosie -- literal established queerplatonic partners, married for tax benefits, spending their evenings gossiping, hating on Susan and Al rolling his eyes on another romance-rel drama Rosie was trying to help sb with. Rosie can have insane influence on him whether it is understanding modern things or just being with him when he needs it. It also gives off mom/son to me.

Husk -- fucked up master-pet not-friendship with probable care rooted since they were closer in past. Is it toxic? Yes. Is it giving off some problematic dynamic? Sure. Yet it's fucking complex on its core considering pilot, bits and pieces of their interaction and how easily Husk used to insult Al until he overstepped. Them two are quite similar if you think about it and if Al got over his ego it could benefit him a lot.

Niffty -- daugther/father dynamic with them sharing one sadistic-psycho braincell and genuinely enjoying each other's quirks. Protective Al? I just need more Niff and them two being partners in the most outrageous crimes.

Mimzy -- friendship going since they were humans, with them having an amazing (potential) backstory of sharing evenings on two. Al enjoying her company as well as being protective and helpful to her with nothing in return.

Charlie -- manipulated into trusting you as a dad figure? Don't tell me there is nothing below Al's creepy plans or that he wouldn't grow to care for her. He already is proud of her and finds amusement in her inspiration-skills (also, performance is his thing for a reason)

Angel -- I was honestly kinda upset we didn't see any interactions between them except one sex joke, coz my past era of Hunicasts was a fuel to their duo. Them bonding over how different they are is the best description of their dynamic. Also banters and body-puns.

You can't just erase Alastor from interacting with people, but putting him inside boxes of allonormative relationships while he has such a fucking huge potential for everything beyond just that - is quite.. disappointing. People turning a blind eye to a wide variety of relationships he can have (potential to which is set in canon) for the sake of just romance/sex is low key sad.

It's AWESOME to see ppl actually understanding it and.. damn THANKS to everyone who explores Al's relationship with others without it involving final wish to stick tongues into places. Dynamics can be interesting and exciting without it.

I really don't wanna project my romance-aversion onto Al, but when romance and sex is one thing you see everywhere.. it's hard to just let it slip.

You are allowed to do whatever you want, exploring physical intimacy is fun as well, and having Al, well, there are bunch of ways to show it with respecting his orientation and the fact that IT AFFECTS RELATIONSHIPS/ATTRACTIONS but please just don't make it the center of your attention, the one thing relationship revolves around, coz sadly it's just exactly how it looks like from some folks.

[scretladyspider]

I want to talk about the definition of demisexuality and why I think in an allocentric world it leads to misunderstandings like this.

Quoted by Cluffalo tweet is about demisexuality. Tweet reads: “Can we stop making everything into an “orientation"?This is normal, healthy, female sexualityWanting to immediately sleep with someone because they're hot is not the default for women.”

Okay, so… demisexuality is “not experiencing sexual attraction unless a close bond is formed”. It was invented over a few years of discussions on AVEN forums about a sort of in-between ace experience, between asexual and allosexual. Graysexual came about around the same time.

The most common criticisms of demisexuality include that it was invented for a role play, that it’s “just normal”, that it’s “just how women are”, or that its especially puritan, assigning superiority to not liking or not having casual sex. And while all of these are worth a deep dive… I want to talk about how we define demisexuality, and why I think it’s both helpful but also leaves some pretty big holes in understanding that leads to posts like that original tweet.

When you’re explaining anything under the asexual spectrum, you generally have to assume that they’ve never heard of asexuality. It doesn’t matter if they are or aren’t ace and don’t know it when we’re told our whole lives that asexuality isn’t a possibility. As much as I don’t want to center the allosexual experience when discussing demisexuality (or anything ace), and I really, really don’t, it ends up being the inevitable reference point when talking about anything ace.

Actually, really understanding the definition of demisexuality requires understanding and accepting asexuality, the asexual spectrum, action not necessarily equating with attraction, arousal VS attraction, libido, and unpacking what we’re taught sexuality is or could be. Demisexuality requires all kinds of knowledge about asexuality to even begin to understand that there IS a difference between waiting to have sex with your partner and not experiencing any sexual attraction at all, to anyone, ever, until and unless a close bond forms, IF then.

The way the “no sexual attraction until a close bond is formed” definition of demisexuality is set up currently sounds like it’s describing building trust with someone before engaging in sex from an allosexual perspective.

In my experience, people can more easily accept that some people don’t experience sexual attraction than they can that some people might experience it, maybe, under select circumstances. That takes more unpacking allonormativity and amatanormativity.

But if you know about and understand asexuality, it’s not difficult to go from the “little to no sexual attraction” that we usually think of as “no sexual attraction” when we talk about asexuality to understanding where and how the “little to” specifically comes into that.

However! If you know what asexuality is, then the definition of demisexuality as we currently write it, as in the OP’s post, is perfectly adequate and can even be liberating, especially if you’ve been trying to figure out why you usually but don’t *always fit into “no sexual attraction”.

I’m tired of explaining over and over the same thing, trying to find new ways to do that. If I can be vulnerable a second, a lot of the time it feels pointless, like, “why am I even doing this?”

And I’m sure I’m not the only person talking about asexuality that feels that way.

Also a lot of the “demisexuality is just being a woman” narrative typically overlaps with transphobia, and folks who say this tend to attribute who they’re referring to as “just being a woman” to whiteness, which again circles everything back to purity culture.

I haven’t yet found a way to explain demisexuality without basically writing a book. Tbh I don’t know that there is a way to briefly and adequately explain demisexuality, as it rests on understanding asexuality, which I know from experience I can’t just assume is the audience. And I don’t really have any solutions or answers to this. I don’t have a new and quick demisexuality definition ready to go. As is, if you understand asexuality, it’s fine, but if you don’t, it’s like… yeah, I understand why people get confused. I used to too. Demisexuality is a real thing. But I am frustrated and tired by how it takes a PowerPoint or dissertation to explain— not just for myself, but any demisexual, because there’s so much around it you have to explain first.

So… those are just some thoughts. I don’t have a solution? I’ve been just thinking about all this for… a long time actually. I wish more people knew about and understood asexuality. it would help. Not just with this, but, this would be something it helped with.

But, yeah! Those were thoughts. I don’t know how to end this thread. Uhm. Okay bye thanks for reading have a nice day

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[prince-liest]

Don't mind me getting on my soapbox for a moment... a lot of this musing is admittedly for the sake of my own processing of this topic, re: aroaceness. Read at your own peril! <3

I'm generally a very "ship and let ship" kind of person, but I think I would definitely append a little caveat of, like, "As long as you're not being actively invalidating and detrimental to others" to that. Which is a delightfully vague statement that can be interpreted practically any way, I know, hahaha.

In the case of this particular post I've just been thinking about how, like... seeing an aroace character like Alastor get written into dozens upon dozens of PWPs (including ones that don't even touch on the subject of his aceness at all) is really not something that I personally find to be hurtful or offensive. It's just smut for the sake of smut, of a character people want to see awful, sexy things done to (or doing). Valid! I vibe with you! More people should just write the PWPs they want to see in the world!

But on the other hand, I've several times seen this very particular type of art (usually it's a comic, but admittedly I haven't been reading very many Hazbin Hotel fics so maybe it's there, too) where Alastor is slotted into the "methinks the lady doth protest too much" trope. As in, he's expressing strong feelings about a character (usually Vox or Lucifer, sometimes Angel Dust) to someone, probably Rosie, and the person he's confiding to is some variant of, "Oh, silly Alastor, you're obviously in love!" And then he denies it, says that the very idea disgusts him, and the character titters to themselves about how he's so naive in the matters of romance or whatever.

And it's, like.

The "strong feelings" in question are almost always frustration/annoyance/disgust, and him being like, "Nnnno, I just hate his person" is treated like a silly and naive misunderstanding of his own feelings because obviously he's in love. Please imagine that Alastor was a female character who was established to be a lesbian. Now examine how that suddenly makes this scene feel.

(Also, Rosie being the go-to for this is a little frustrating when she's the one who, in canon, explicitly says that she wouldn't make that assumption of him.)

There's such a chasm of difference between how I see people wanting to ship Alastor for reasons of "I just want to!" vs folks who engage with him being aroace in ways that are infantilizing and invalidating. There are so many people out there - not just aro/ace people, but anyone who's not exclusively into the standard type of person they should be into at the time society deems they should be into them, which is most queer people and even many cishet folks - that have been told that exact kind of thing in real life. It reads like something out of a compulsory heterosexuality guidebook, and it actively makes it harder to leave the closet or even realize that you're in one at all.

So I guess it just feels frustrating to see it get made into a punchline, especially by folks who are shipping queer ships. I genuinely can't wait until fandom society advances to the point of consistently treating aro/acespec folks as queer instead of Queer Lite (TM), because let me tell you, ime the comphet experience and the amato/allonormativity experience are in fact nigh-identical except for how they're treated within online communities. There's a reason the pan -> gay -> ace pipeline is a thing.

But, hey! We're already doing way better than we were in 2012!

[prototypesteve]

Sent.

Just told the last remaining “I’ve known this guy forever” friend that I’m aromantic and asexual. This friend watched me recover from the first fake relationship (late 90s), and watched me go through the second fake relationship¹ (2005-2008). He’s only known me as someone who assumed they’re allosexual and alloromantic, but who was just really, really bad at it.

The send button used to take me about an hour to tap. And I’d often hesitate and delete the message, and wait a few more days. But with each person, it gets a little easier. It used to be terrifying, but now it’s just really scary.

Anyway, all that to say, it gets easier, but I don’t know if it ever gets easy. Don’t feel bad if there are people you just can’t (or won’t) ever tell. This isn’t something you owe them. This is something they earn.

Whether it’s your sexuality, or an invisible disability, or the special way your family formed, or even just your secret carrot cake recipe, you don’t owe anyone anything you feel they haven’t earned the privilege of knowing.

Invitation Only.

Some friends of mine like to replace the idea of coming out with a different way of seeing it: “Inviting in.”

Sometimes, with certain people and to certain audiences, using the term “coming out” can feel like you’ve kept a secret and you’re admitting to it. It has a lot of cultural baggage. It can feel like confessing to something bad. And fuck that.

“Inviting in” changes the dynamic. Now it’s about exclusivity and qualification. It’s members-only clique or an invitation-only club, and there are standards to be met. You must be this emotionally mature to ride.

For something like asexuality and aromanticism I even use the term “clarifying”. I have friends who’ve only even known me as single, or other friends (like the one I just came out to / invited in) who’ve seen me damaged by a failed relationship, then in a really unsuccessful and loveless one for a few years, then apparently happily single for 15 years. So they know something’s different. Maybe gay? Maybe I’m just traumatized? Maybe I think people of our faith aren’t allowed to remarry? They see the stuff. They just don’t know what’s causing the stuff. So I’m mostly just clarifying.

But whatever you do—come out, invite in, clarify—do it when it’s safe, when you’re ready, and only to people who’ve demonstrated they deserve to know you that well. There’s no timetable, no cutoff age, no obligation to your community.

Footnotes:

¹ “fake relationship” is a slightly harsh way to put what happened. This was when I didn’t know what aroace was, so even though I was aroace I had been raised to assume that as someone who felt male, I was were either straight, gay, or bi, and that everyone needed someone. (Extreme allonormativity, amatonormativity and compulsory sexuality.) The most I ever felt was what we would call Platonic Love, but at the time I assumed what I felt was just my broken version of romance. I wanted to be like everyone else (even my gay friends felt love, FFS, what was my excuse?). So I tried. I really, really tried. And I couldn’t. I could be enjoyable, but I couldn’t enjoy, and that hurt the people I was with. It made them feel undesirable even though really it was me who couldn’t desire anyone. And I hate how that happened. I don’t hate why it happened, but I hate that it had to happen because words like aromantic and asexual were hidden away back then. And my way of dealing with how that hurt is to incorrectly call them fake relationships, for now. I hope there’s a better term out there.

[physalian]

I think being an ace writer lets me write sex and romance with less of my own biases/wants/what-I-think-is-sexy getting in the way, to better incorporate these scenes into the story as a method of plot and character development instead of just gratuitous, among other things. In the same way being atheist lets me write real and fantasy religions without my own beliefs interfering, because I can respect religion academically and objectively, as a tool, not a given.

I write my characters in tons of situations that I myself would never enjoy, anything from bathing together or having kinks or even making out. I know why people enjoy these things and I’ve read enough romances to know how to write the proper buildup and the right tone to strike and all that jazz and I do enjoy reading romance.

There’s absolutely other factors at play here and I can’t speak from experience for a lot of the situations I put my characters into (nor do I write smut, I’ve tried, I’m bad at it because I’m ace) but I’ll beta read sex scenes for original authors, especially cis/het authors, and while “writing to satisfy yourself or your readers” is different than straight up just writing a story that includes romance, I seem to keep finding myself stuck with a constant stream of author wish fulfilment, a lot of newbie original authors seem… narrow-minded when it comes to sex.

Like they can only imagine what they find kinky or romantic or sexy, like the subtext is saying “this is sexy because I think it’s sexy and if you don’t think it’s sexy something’s wrong with you”. Which isn’t at all a problem in fanfic for whatever reason (probably because these authors also tend to think sex=romance thus smut=character development).

So I have a character with a medical kink, for example. I haven’t had readers gushing over him or that scene (haven’t had that many readers period, mind you), but I haven’t had any complaints, either. Heck, my protagonist in ENNS is a frustrated virgin in a vampire romance who at one point realizes “hm yeah I definitely don’t hate teeth anymore pls do it again” meanwhile I’m sitting back with my metaphorical coffee going “you have fun now, enjoy”. Maybe because it’s not just an 111k word fantasy smutfest but his self-discovery is part of his arc.

But I think the difference is, either in just skill at my craft or being on the outside looking in, is that I think “what would he think is sexy? And how would I go about writing that?” vs “what do I think is sexy? And how do I go about contorting my characters to fit that?” I spend the time making sure he’s in character, it makes sense for his character, and that he’s acting authentically.

Or at the very least, I think aceness (and possibly aro-ness we are undecided in that department) gives you a baseline of 0, clean slate, not that aces can’t enjoy the idea of sex, the idea is that sexuality is self-contained. But when your whole life is sex-favorable/allonormative I think it puts blinders up.

Or, I just keep reading heterosexual romances that leave something to be desired. Not just beta-reading, the romances in like, Maas books, for example—no kinkier or more wish-fulfilling than a fanfic with the same tags, but there’s something so cheap and artificial about those sex scenes. The first time I read… I think it was book 3 or 4 of the TOG series and I realized just how much sex there was, I legit got bored and scanned ahead until I could get back to the story—and I have sat through fanfics that surpass 100k words with as much smut and I am fine and entertained. Is it because she’s not a great author, or because she’s a cis/het author with blinders up, or some mix between the two? I have enjoyed poorly written but sincerely written smut in fanfic, so it can’t be that, either. If this was a science experiment and I’m controlling for all other variables except the sexuality of the authors and/or characters, I’d have my answer.

That’s not at all to say allonormative authors cannot write beautiful romances and hot sex scenes. There is only one (1) romantic scene in Maas's books that I used to go back specifically to reread, and it was just two characters finally tossing decorum aside to make out. She lost me completely after that.

Just in my experience, inexeperienced allonormative authors vs queer of any kind tend to be worse at making it compelling and sincere and my theory is that they can’t escape their own ideas of what sexiness is, because they've never had to, and can't get in the minds of characters and readers who don’t all think like they do.

—

Interested in a queer vampire fantasy novel? Eternal Night of the Northern Sky is out now!

[laurenfoxmakesthings]

I'm seeing too many fellow aces not believing there's a problem when they say 'I'm not into rap because it's too sexual'. So I'm going to say, as an ace, yes there is.

The problem wasn't 'people overreacting to your sex repulsion'. The problem was you all honed in on rap having this allonormativity as your reason to not listen, especially when a lot of black culture gets accused of being too sexual. And there's a whole can of baggage of worms there I'm not qualified to get into as someone who's pasty white myself.

1. Rap is NOT all about sex. I prefer jazz more than rap, but even I know there's bops for us out there. Check out the ones about politics for instance or maybe check out some Childish Gambino, hell kid rappers exist, you think they rap about sex?

2. Literally every music genre has allonormativity (except I guess instrumental jazz, so there's a start, but jazz overall has this too...I love you, Ella Fitzgerald, but why all the love=sex songs?) and I'm pretty damn sure the rest of you don't exclude every other music genre in your lives. I don't see anyone saying this stuff about, say, rock from white guys in the '80s? No controversy about that, I guess.

It's one thing to avoid specific songs, it's just plain disengenous to avoid whole genres based on assumptions that don't apply to literally every song.

The thing is the ace community does have a racism problem, even though I know a lot of you don't mean it maliciously. You're not immune to biases, especially when the community becomes smaller white cliques on social media. I've seen more black aces on TWITTER, for crying out loud.

To fix this, you need to acknowledge the problem and not deny it as some 'touch grass' issue. It's really not and it's a bad look. It'll make the problem worse.

And expand your musical horizons, not avoid a genre based on an assumption from osmosis or mainstream radio. Hell, I've stopped listening to mainstream radio long ago since none of it plays jazz. Check out community and college radio stations, way more expansive and international tastes, with every song as a surprise.

I'm not trying to go 'rah rah you'll all bad people'. That's what gets people to not examine their biases, thinking racism only happens out of the mouths of the worst people. The systems we live in try to normalise racism. It's background radiation and you need to use your Geiger counter.

I'm getting this off my chest because I know you all can do better. If you get your denial out of the way and realise maybe there's something more unconscious going on than just consciously tending to your orientation's needs.

Now, I'm going to leave this here and trust you all to read it. I'm not going to respond, especially if anyone turns this into an argument.

[cukrkandl]

rosekiller microfic

— ace evan (my most beloved) | 821 words | cws: internalized acephobia, allonormativity, forcing yourself to have sex (nothing actually happens), very mild suggestive content

Evan stares at the tiny vial in his hands, the ever-present anxiety in his stomach growing again.

Six months of waiting for it to brew, of making excuses, of letting Barty down. And now Evan can finally be normal.

It takes him hours to find the courage to actually drink it. His brain, as always, works against him, because he doesn't want to have sex. He never had. Never will, he knows that now. That's why he had it brewing in an abandoned classroom for all those months, spending more time just staring at it than being with his actual boyfriend.

He drinks the potion thinking about Barty, how happy he'll be that Evan's finally ready. No matter how patient he's been, Evan knows he's frustrated. And horny.

The liquid makes him feel strange, and for a second, he thinks maybe he brewed it wrong, but then the feeling in his stomach just—disappears. His mind clears, and yeah, let's go find Barty. Let's do this thing.

Feeling like he has no control over his body, Evan walks to their dorm, and finds Barty sprawled in his bed. Immediately, his face brightens up, but he's not given a chance to speak before Evan kisses him.

If Barty's surprised, he recovers in record time, pulling Evan closer until he's straddling him. Evan likes this part; he knows it makes Barty want to have sex even more, but Evan enjoys this feeling. Like he's going to get consumed by it all, and he would let Barty eat him up, no questions asked. It's a different sort of closeness, and Evan craves it more than anything.

As if he could hear his thoughts, Barty breaks the kiss and bites the sensitive skin on his neck. Nothing hot about it at all, though Evan can't really be the judge of that, just something primal.

Eventually, though, it always gets uncomfortable. It stops feeling good. Barty's hands start wandering, his fingers start getting itchy, and Evan's brain makes it feel bad. It's all wrong.

Not anymore.

As Barty plants both of his hands on Evan's ass, he pulls away. Barty wants to have sex, it's easy to tell. Evan doesn't know why he's been waiting for him. He deserves better.

For just a brief second, Evan mourns his own wishes for nothing but a lot of this, for getting lost in the kisses, and then maybe cuddling, and closes his eyes, letting the Felix Felicis do the work for him.

If he has to drink it for the rest of his life to have sex—well. Maybe he'll get used to it.

But instead of giving him an answer to one of the biggest mysteries of the universe and forcing him to finally do it, the potion makes him say, "I don't want to have sex with you." And if that wasn't bad enough: "Like, ever."

Barty freezes. He looks up at Evan, carefully removing his hands from his ass, slow like he's scared Evan will implode. Honestly, he might. He was supposed to take this to his grave.

He wants to take it back, but the potion won't let him. No words come out, nothing happens, and fuck, what is Evan supposed to do now?

He can't even cry.

"Okay," Barty says.

What?

"What?"

"I said okay," Barty repeats. "I don't care."

"But you—you want to," Evan says, whining. Why isn't the potion working?

Except it is, he can feel it inside of him, but how is this luck? Disappointing your boyfriend? Denying him something he has every right to want?

But Barty just shrugs. "Can I still jerk off?"

"Wha—yeah?"

"Can I still touch you? Like what we were just doing."

"Yeah?"

"Can we still cuddle?"

"Yeah," Evan whispers, his secret wish coming back with so much force it nearly knocks him over. "You really don't mind?"

"I don't think so? I mean, I thought I couldn't live without sex, but look at me, we've been together for what, eight months now? And I'm fine. I didn't die. My hand might fall off one day, and then we'll have a problem, but I'm fine."

He looks like he's telling the truth, too, just lying there, his fingers drawing tiny circles on the back of Evan's hand. Calming him down.

Oh. Oh.

"I love you," Evan blurts out, and it's all him, no liquid luck.

Barty smirks. "You'd better."

And then he just resumes the kissing, putting his hands back on Evan's ass, except that's all there is. Evan's still trained to make himself feel bad about it, but it doesn't—it feels fine. It's just touching, nothing more looming over it, and that makes it okay.

He loses himself in the kiss, feeling so incredibly lucky.

Barty bites down on his lip, hard, and Evan lets himself be consumed. The potion inside of him stays silent. He doesn't need any more luck.

[not-poignant]

Can I ask, why do you love BL romance better than het romance? What makes them better? I did not mean anything negative, and I know everyone have their own like and dislike but I want to know your thoughts....

Also what do you think that made Asian MLM (BL manga/manhwa/manhua/ danmei) romances better than western MLM romances?

Can I ask, why do you love BL romance better than het romance?

Because I had no choice for many years.

Because that choice was taken away from me by a homophobic, transphobic, queerphobic, acephobic society. So all the romances I read had to be heterosexual, all the romances I watched had to be heterosexual, all the romances I heard of had to be heterosexual.

Because I'm not heterosexual.

Because I never saw myself represented in any stories ever, for over about 20 years (queer stuff existed, but where I was situated in Perth, Western Australia, meant that I was not seeing it).

Because I was force-fed allonormative, heteronormative, heterosexual tropes, bullshit, toxicity, misogyny, patriarchal culture, rape culture and more, and because everyone assumed that was normal, which made me feel isolated, marginalised, alone, and bereft, and cut me out of knowing what a life could look like for myself, and made relationships harder, when you don't have the words or stories to latch onto.

People like me couldn't even be erased out of the media, we hardly existed in the media, and if we did, almost never under our real identities, and almost always having to pretend to be something we weren't, for many people who hated us, or wished we were dead, or simply didn't care about us at all.

So, when I finally got a choice, I made a choice.

And I do not want to read heterosexual content anymore, unless it's queer (like T4T). The only place I actually willingly consume heterosexual romantic content these days is like 80s and 90s and early 00s romantic comedies. It's the only thing I allow through my filter, because so many of them have a really strong bent of hurt/comfort in them, and it's rare to find movies that have this in general.

But yeah otherwise het is just not a thing I look for in fiction. Literally a squick. Literally reminds me of 20 years of oppression in the mass media. It's not inherently bad, it just wasn't good for me personally, to never have a choice.

So I made one :D And my life has been so much better for it. I'm never going back.

Also what do you think that made Asian MLM (BL manga/manhwa/manhua/ danmei) romances better than western MLM romances?

It's just better for me, anon! I find a lot of western published m/m (so not like m/m fanfiction which I still read) often feels stifled and too short for me, and the characterisation doesn't get as deep as I want it to get. I often can feel the rigidity of the novel structure on authors who are trying to rapid release, and the depth I'm looking for is rarely there. Sometimes that's what people want! Sometimes they don't know there's other options!

Sometimes that's true of some BL manga/manhua/manhwa etc. as well. Tbh it's probably true of a lot of it! Serial format doesn't always allow for depth either. But I find the visual format easier to read as well. If I reread western m/m it's almost always fanfiction. And tbh, I'm sure some amazing m/m was published last year, I just get tired of having to wade through it all to find something I like. It got to the point where I was reading like 60+ titles just to find one average read, and I gave up.

The recommendation systems for BL tend to be better and more on point for me, I find most people who recommend published m/m to me generally always miss the mark (which isn't their fault - I'm particular, there's a reason I write what I write - because I can't find it to read!!), but close friends like @morbidlizard who recommend BL to me almost always hit the mark!

I don't actually read much danmei, but mostly because I haven't had time to really sink my teeth into it. Aside from MXTX, I haven't explored much further.

But yeah, hope that helps! :D

[growling]

due to being both aromantic and aplatonic i feel pretty "eh" to both concepts of friendships and relationships/couples in media (and in real life too but i'm more. discreet about it) which makes interacting with fandom works and such.. pretty frustrating at times

im more averse to romance in real life than in fiction ill have to admit, like, most ships i don't mind. im still more able to engage in shipping in my free time, but that might be because, like, when i ship characters i don't really... do it in a romantic sense i just mash them together, i like deeper bonds/relations/connections like that, and "ship" is a pretty easy term to apply to it as and kinda accurate, i don't know, hard to explain. but when theyre depicted to do traditionally romantic things together or just put emphasis on looooove and go all dovey-eyes in fanart then i must leave. i had enough i have assessed the situation and im leaving

but. i also don't like friendships in fanworks. which sucks so much because this is what, like, most other people that don't like romance gravitate to too!! and they put.. so much, like, moral stuff into liking it too like, saying that if you dont appreciate platonic relationships enough then that means allonormativity rotted your brain or something. many other aro & non-aplatonic people just go "romantic ships are so overdone so heres more art and works where characters are just allowed to stay friends, maybe even friendships are just superior anyway" and like i am happy for you don't get me wrong go enjoy what you like but.... friendships just always make me go "ewww". and unfortunately i cannot just choose not to see it either, platonic relationships are never tagged or anything except on ao3 or something. a lot of media/content (god i hate that term for fanworks..) by aros for aros just focuses on platonic love & relationships instead and sorry i cannot relate and the growler feels a bit alienated. not many people even know that aplatonic people exist anyway and if they do then they dont have the best opinion of us.

so like, god i hate clarifying this i feel like it goes without saying but whatever i don't want to get accused of hurting peoples feelings by saying this: i am not saying to stop making fanfics of platonic relationships or that if you like friends in fiction then i think ur lame or something. im just saying that this is one part of fandom i just, cannot really like. not just fandom either. friendships are everywhere i swear and there is no way for me to avoid those either, and if i ever voice that it repulses me, i get treated like a freak even by spaces that are supposedly aroace & sex/romance-repulsed friendly and yeah it kinda sucks .

anyway friendships are overrated i don't want friends i want evil advisors, loyal goons and homoerotic rivals and fucked up hero-villain and whumper-whumpee pairs and even more fucked up guys with their fates forever entwined and bonded for life close in the way rats tied at their tails are even as they desperately pull and scratch and bite to get away is that too much to ask

[moonssugar]

keep forgetting to ask but a while back when i was thinking of the weird way i experience romance and romantic feelings and how thats probably influenced by a lot of things about me i made a connection to how similar to the aro spectrum those feelings are.

does anyone else feel they have a atypical experience with romance thats marked by having a hard time distinguishing between strictly "platonic" and "romantic" feelings, experience both of them at the same time often and often with fluctuating intensities, have fluctuating romantic feelings for people in where one day you love them in a romantic way and the next you're not feeling it that much or less than before but not in a way to call yourself strictly aro, suspect that being neurodivergent changes your perception and experience of romance and heternorm/allonorm social structures and expectations in a way that you feel alienated and exhausted from what society expects from a relationship etc

i don't have a name for this but ive been jokingly calling myself Orange after the use of grey in greyromantic. not quite grey (aro) not quite red (alloromantic) but a secret third thing? 🍊❓️i hesitate to ask publicly, i don't want a definitive answer to be applied to me like a diagnosis or anything or to be told "youre just normal!" because it doesnt feel normal especially not next to whats accepted as normal. i do want to know if anyone else experiences these things and the only community to ask is the ace and aro communities! so im asking yall :3

[sincerelyhannahx]

To celebrate Asexual Visibility Week (which Happy Asexual Visibility Week by the way omg), here is a list of characters who are now asexual because I said so:

Crowley and Aziraphale (Good Omens) I mean, this is basically canon for me already but their relationship genuinely means so much to me because it's not inherently romantic or sexual or even strictly platonic, they just have such a strong emotional bond and love each other in a way that I think could only be asexual. And being fairly new to my sexuality (not even a year yet) I really needed that. Maybe I don't want an allonormative relationship - maybe I just want what they have. Idk they're just really special to me.

Belle (Beauty and the Beast) Belle being ace removes the beastiality aspect of the story so I think this is best for everyone involved. (This goes for Tiana too, actually - ace!Tiana, let's go). But she literally fell in love with the Beast because of his personality alone after spending a long time getting to know him (and because of a library but ykw me too girlie). And it helps that I've had a strong attachment to Belle since like forever (I actually played her in a school production when I was 6).

Peter Pettigrew (Harry Potter) Right, so I do hate Peter and I wouldn't do this if I didn't have to, but omg he is so asexual. And definitely not saying that asexual people are going to betray and murder their best friends but I feel like not fitting in with his very allonormative group and maybe not even knowing what the term asexual means could be an interesting motivation for his actions. Peter feeling like he's broken somehow for not feeling what the others are feeling, thinking there must be something wrong with him since everyone else is falling in love, viewing himself as unloveable because platonic love isn't enough when everyone else has a brilliant romance, turning to the Dark Lord because he's been left behind but maybe this will fix him... and then losing that platonic love too and realising he didn't need fixing after all and his friends were enough, but now it's too late. So, anyway, ace!Peter makes me sad.

Katniss Everdeen (The Hunger Games) "There's never been anything romantic between Gale and me." This is 100% because Gale is a walking red flag but I'll take it as an aroace thing too. “Remember, we’re madly in love, so it’s all right to kiss me any time you feel like it.” The fact she didn't fall head-over-heels in love with Peeta as soon as he said this is honestly all the evidence I need. Also trying to act like you're madly in love with someone? I know it was for survival but, again, I'll take what I can get. "What I need is the dandelion in the spring... And only Peeta can give me that." This is not an allosexual relationship, I will not change my mind. Personally, I think Katniss is probably demisexual and I love her for that.

The Doctor (Doctor Who) If I had a nickel for every time David Tennant played an 'immortal' genderfluid asexual non-human who loves the stars and humanity, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice. But, yeah, the Doctor is asexual, that's just canon for me (and David Tennant said it too soooooooo).

Zoe Nightshade (Percy Jackson) The Hunters of Artemis are a sisterhood that requires you to swear off love and relations with men. Oh no, what a sacrifice! Come to think of it, she also has a connection to the stars - this is becoming a recurring thing.

Artemis, Athena, and Hestia (Greek Mythology) The fact there is a trio of asexual goddesses will never not make me so happy. In the Homeric Hymns, 5, To Aphrodite, Aphrodite is described as having "no power" over these three, which basically just confirms what everyone was already thinking. Artemis is quite literally the Maiden Goddess, who asks her father, Zeus, to forever remain a virgin and protect those who wish the same. Athena never took on any lovers (and in the Percy Jackson series, her children are conceived through her thoughts and born in the same way she was). And Hestia just wanted to be left alone with her hearth, also never marrying or having children.

Barbie (Barbie) "To do what?" Girlie literally has nothing going on down there (for the majority of the movie, idk what happened at the end) and doesn't understand why Ken wants to stay over because they're girlfriend boyfriend. The point of the Barbies is that they show women can be everything so, legally, no one can stop me saying she's an asexual icon.

Regulus Black (Harry Potter) I apologise to all the Jegulus stans out there but you can pry Regulus from my cold, dead hands. Asexual and Bi/Pan friendships are my absolute favourite (shout out to me and my bestie <3) and that is exactly what he's got with Pandora. Also, after Sirius was disowned, the responsibility of continuing the Black family line would fall to Regulus and that aroace pressure makes for some beautiful angst. And it means he's okay with sacrificing himself because at least he won't have to force a life he doesn't want. Why does the Marauders era always turn so sad so quickly?

Inej Ghafa (Six of Crows) Again with the Asexual and Bi/Pan friendships - I'm really just projecting myself and my best friend onto Inej and Nina, but who's going to stop me?

Elsa (Frozen) and Merida (Brave) Watch out, Disney; I'm coming for all of your princesses. I'm putting these two together because they could be asexual but I could also see them as lesbians - or maybe they're both.

Charlie Weasley (Harry Potter) He is the blueprint. Mum wants me to get married and settle down? Yeah, okay, but have you heard about dragons?

Newt Scamander (Fantastic Beasts) He is also the blueprint. Yeah, okay, but have you heard about every beast to ever exist ever?

I could keep going but I won't (for now). But honestly, we need more asexual characters in media because we're so underrepresented and it's such a serotonin boost. Like in S4 of Sex Education, I actively gasped and had such a big smile on my face when O came out as ace (at the representation, not the being forced to come out). Anyway, Happy Asexual Visibility Week!