#anti vassian

[azrielsfavoriteshadow]

Feyre's "Ship Names" for Elain/Az & Vassa/Lucien

This post will explain why I believe "Death & his Lovely Fawn" and "Bird of Flame & Lord of Fire" are ill suited ship names for these characters and were never intended to be perceived as romantic.

Death & His Lovely Fawn

This comes from when Azriel gives Elain truth teller and Feyre describes a painting she envisions in her head.

The first issue I have with this alleged ship name is the fandom throwing in the possessive noun and romanticizing it. Death & HIS lovely Fawn makes the Fawn, which is Elain, an object of Death's, who is Azriel.

A Fawn in literature represents a gentle but fragile animal. We have it standing before death with terrors lurking behind him. In the series, there is an abundance of Fawn imagery with Elain and we see Elain struggling with the exact stereotypes a Fawn is used to represent - being weak, naive, needing protection, etc. We see the IC, including Azriel, projecting these Fawn stereotypes onto Elain. Knowing how they view Elain and use fawn imagery to project those stereotypes onto her, it further paints the picture of an imbalance of power between the Fawn and Death.

Next, in this ship name, Azriel is personified as Death. We are aware of the issues Azriel has with himself. There is a deep self-loathing there. In the BC, he thinks of himself as tainted and unworthy of touching Elain. He talks about how she does not even know the things his hands have done. So to describe this man who feels so tainted as Death in contrast to Elain's Fawn seems like the embodiment of the exact negative thoughts Azriel has about himself in relation to Elain. I personally feel that if Azriel were to hear this is the ship name for him and Elain, it would only further contribute to his feelings of unworthiness.

Lastly, the personification of a character as Death has already been done with Nesta. Nesta is Lady Death. She and Cassian are Lady Death & the Lord of Bloodshed. The below quote is Cassian himself personifying Nesta as death. This usage of Death in a couple has already been used with Nessian and it better suits them given who Nesta is and what her powers are.

This point is just an interesting parallel: Feyre imagines a similar painting with Lucien and Rhysand. She imagines Lucien as a Clever Fox staring down Winged Death who is Rhysand. Elain as the Fawn and Lucien as the Fox is just another example of the complementary imagery SJM has between the two of them. She has them both facing death represented by two different men from the NC to create this juxtaposition that is not romantic. It actually furthers the complimentary imagery of Elain and Lucien. I also want to call out how Feyre creates the imbalance of power between the Fawn and Death while she has the Fox staring Death down. This reaffirms that Feyre uses Fawn imagery to undermine Elain and her strength. The use of Fawn imagery by Feyre and the IC with Elain is not a positive thing. It is further proof of their infantilizing and underestimating her. Lastly, if Feyre's painting ideas are representations of 'ships', is she a Lucien x Rhysand shipper? Is this Feyre's Lucien x Rhysand ship name then?

Bird of Flame & Lord of Fire

This comes from the scene where Feyre realizes Lucien's true parentage and is conversing with Rhysand about him being Helion's son, not Beron's. She then thinks of Lucien who is currently looking for Vassa after following one of Elain's visions.

My issue with Bird of Flame & Lord of Fire is that both titles are rooted in parts of Lucien and Vassa that they actively do not like about themselves. Being a Bird of Flame or Firebird is literally Vassa's curse. It is her curse and she wants it broken. It is a curse from a villain who took away part of her bodily autonomy through the curse and she wants to be freed from it. We know Vassa desires to return to being human and to continue to be a human queen. It has never sat right with me that people romanticize her curse to fit her into a ship. SJM writes happy endings. Vassa will not be permanently confined to her curse.

Lord of Fire alludes to Lucien's Autumn Court heritage. Just before the "Bird of Flame and Lord of Fire" line, Feyre and Rhys have a whole conversation about Lucien's fire powers being what connects him to the AC and ultimately disguises him as Beron's son when in truth, he is Helion's son and those powers actually come from LoA. Lord of Fire limits Lucien to Beron and the AC who he has actively distanced himself for decades at this point. Beron and Lucien's brothers (minus Eris) do not care for Lucien either. They murdered the woman he loved in front of him, hunted Lucien down to kill him since he was a potential candidate for AC HL, and even attacked Lucien when he was traveling through the AC with Feyre. Calling Lucien Lord of Fire is not a true representation of who Lucien is and minimizes him to the part of his story he has separated himself from when we as readers know the entirety of his truth. It is not an accurate representation of Lucien's truth and identity as the heir to the Day Court as the son of LoA and Helion.

This part is also another interesting parallel between Elain and Lucien. I find it interesting how they are both associated with seasonal courts. Elain with Spring and Lucien with Autumn. My theory is that this is done on purpose. They are both mistakenly associated with a seasonal court. Nesta and Feyre speak about how Elain would love the Spring Court. Feyre looks at Lucien and describes him with AC imagery. However, they do not see the true depths of Elain and Lucien. They are mistakenly associated with the seasonal Spring and Autumn Courts, when their truth and destiny lies with a solar court, the Day Court.

[shadowqueenjude]

[yennas-stuff]

Guys, maybe something very easy with not too many words will help E/riels out. I'm not the best at maths, but...

3 happy couples are better than one.

3 couples > one couple

1 couple 🥲

3 couples 😄

Gwynriel, Vassian, Elucien >>> E/riel

🧜‍♀️🦇, 👸🤴, 🌻🌷 = 👍

🦇🥀 = 👎

Hope this helps.

[yaralulu]

Sjm had the chance to show us that something was happening between vassa and lucien when cassian visited them in acosf but instead we got jurian teasing vassa and lucien literally playing third wheel.Sjm could’ve veryyy easily made it so lucien was the one doing the teasing but she didn’t.She had her shot and she most definitely did not shoot it.Not a single indication of vassien in that scene,just proof of what lucien has been telling us since acofas—vassa and jurian want to smash 🤷.

[ennawrite]

In a world where Jurian & Vassa are at each other’s throats “as they LIKE to be” how does the idea of Lucien & Vassa being endgame make any sort of sense???

Please get a grip, people

[goldenivy0]

It's VASSIAN not VassiEN! (Meant to be read as if you're Hermione Granger)

"Lucien and Vassa are my favourite couple, they're so cute in the few scenes we got of them and they already have chemistry." Ummm... what can I say about this? Let's not get too excited shall we?

Vassien shippers often use the following scenes to prove that Lucien and Vassa are going to be a thing in future books:

Lord have mercy! They read that Lucien blushed and they were like "Yup!! Endgaaaaame!". Guys please... Let's really look at this first scene. Don't you understand the reason why Lucien blushed? This man blushed LOOKING AT ELAIN because Feyre made a comment that could be interpreted as Lucien having some interest in Vassa and this man was there thinking like "Feyre I can't believe you just said this in front of my mate. Vassa has a foul mouth but it seems like you have one too, if you say something silly like this.. you'll get along just fine.." hence why him cutting her a wry look. It's not that hard to understand this, c'mon!!

As for the second scene, an animated conversation between two characters doesn't prove that a romantic relationship between them exists or will exist. At best it proves that a friendship exists there or that one is being built. In my humble opinion, this second scene was written for two reasons, to create doubt and division within the fandom (adding Vassien to the ship wars, even if they're just a red herring) and to make the following scene less surprising.

In this scene Lucien reveals to Feyre that he's been living with Jurian and Vassa in the human lands. If we didn't have the knowledge that Lucien was friends with any of them we'd be like "wait... why in the world are you living with them? You're not that close like... what?" but thanks to scenes like the 2nd one, we know that Lucien is familiar enough with at least one of them to have decided to share a house with them. And let's be honest.. after being ignored by people he considered his friends (Feyre I'm looking at you) for months in the NC, why wouldn't he? After seeing that his mate didn't react to his presence the same way he reacted to hers, why wouldn't he?

People seem to forget that this was Lucien at the begining of ACOWAR:

Before he met Vassa, he didn't care about other females at all because he knows he has a mate now. This man is one of the most loyal people in this series. If he wasn't looking for female attention or interested in any female other than his mate before meeting Vassa, why would that have changed after meeting her? This is Lucien in ACOSF (after living with Jurian and Vassa for months):

After all this time, this man is still LONGING for Elain. Why would he long for Elain if he had feelings for Vassa? Again, in my humble opinion, it's because he doesn't have those feelings for her at all.

Now THIIIIS might be an indication of a possible future match 👇🏼:

Vassa and Jurian share the same vision for the future of the human territories. Maybe, just maybe, they'll rule them together. Vassa and Jurian are at each others throats as they like to be? SJM once used this same expression with another couple, Nessian, and they ended up together didn't they?

So yeah... just like it is leviOsa and not levioSA it is also VassiAN and not VassiEN!! 😂🤭

[oristian]

i know theres speculation about narben in the fandom and i think koschei is probably going to find it in someway. a death god and a death sword, it only makes sense. do you have a theory on what’ll happen to narben?

I try to stray away from posting theories on my pages for a few reasons—namely, because I do not want to seem like I am thinking too deeply into a book of the same caliber as ACOTAR. However, I have been thinking about Narben and about the folklore surrounding Koschei the Deathless. If SJM truly is planning on following as close as possible to his mythology, here are my thoughts —

I believe that Narben will be found as it was spoken about more than once. Another Made death sword, connected to the Dread Trove? Seemingly lost at sea due to Amarantha? Considering that SJM is consistent with using similar number patterns across her series—three, four, seven, et cetera—collecting Narben would equate to three Made swords: Ataraxia, Gwydion, and Narben. I personally would be curious as to how those swords would sing to one another, especially used in proximity in battle.

I want to touch on a little folklore about Koschei the Deathless before I touch on Narben. Previously, my thoughts had been on Gwyn wielding Narben, as it had been thrown into the sea and there have been connections to her being half-nymph. After reading HOFAS, my new conclusion will be that Gwyn wields Gwydion, Nesta wields Ataraxia, and Jurian wields Narben.

Koschei the Deathless is an ancient wizard carved from dark magic who is neither alive, nor dead. His immortality is locked within an egg, that is locked within something larger, and so forth—essentially, a Russian nest doll. He is cunning and is known to steal beautiful women and trap them within his palace. In the case of ACOTAR, Koschei is a Death God, brother to the Bone Carver and The Weaver (Stryga), and entraps beautiful women in his lake on the mortal continent. In folklore, he is bested by a man named Ivan Tsarevich.

I have heard the tale of Koschei being used consistently to support the idea of three brothers and three sisters, however I believe that Koschei the Deathless supports the tale of Jurian and Vassa—The Gray Wolf and the Firebird.

Ivan’s fate had been very similar to Jurian in that they were both cut up and were revived by the “water of life.” In the original tale, Ivan’s wife, Marya Morevna, had been captured by Koschei and Ivan had followed behind—the following confrontation is what had led to Ivan being cut up. This reads very similar to Jurian’s fate after Clythia. Ivan had three wives, one being named Vasillia the Wise—the Firebird. Giving the language associated with Jurian and Vassa currently, it appears that SJM is taking a romantic route for their relationship.

On to why I believe Jurian may wield Narben. In the folktale, Ivan Tsarevich wielded a blade called Sword Kladenets.

Sword Kladenets is said to have been a “hidden sword,” and was powerful enough to destroy the enemy with a single swipe—similarly to how Ataraxia worked against Lanthys and the Asteri. Now, if SJM is going down the route where she is pulling bits and pieces from Koschei’s actual lore, this would be the most fitting piece, especially if she plans on bringing Narben into the story again.

I have always seen Vassa being taken by Koschei again and Jurian going to rescue her. I have also always seen Elain and Lucien on a journey to find Koschei’s box that holds his immortality, which, according to lore, is scattered in different places. Elain’s visions have already allowed her to see the onyx box that holds his fate.

Could Koschei have Narben? I do not believe that he has it at this current moment. In the case that he does come into possession of such a sword, I see that being a major plot point in one of the next books—possibly even being the reason why he is freed from his lake and able to come and retrieve Vassa. There could very well be a possibility that Narben being in the sea could ultimately connect to his lake in some capacity—especially in ACOSF when Nesta released her power and it drew back the water.

At the end of the day, everything is up to SJM. I personally love diving into lore and theories, because I am so interested in seeing how others perceive the same things that I do.

[pan-withnoplan]

"I don't ship vassien because I'm an elriel, I think they would be hot"

Tamcien has more ao3 works than vassien.

Tamcien has more ao3 works than vassien

Normally I wouldn't say that fans need to create content to be valid in their shipping, but at some point you have to wonder, if vassien is such a hot ship and has potential, then why, since Vassa was introduced in 2016/2017 (I'm not sure), there are only 69 vassien works? And why, of these, only 36 are tagged together with elriel?

Let's make a few comparisons.

Out of 1450 elriel works, 131 are also tagged elucien, and 57 gwynriel.

Out of 1464 elucien works, 226 are also gwynriel, and 131 elriel.

The numbers match with 1141 gwynriel works, 226 confirmed with elucien, and 58 with elriel.

My readings told me that gwynriels don't like to write about elriel, preferring to have that not-relationship fade and focus on developing gwynriel. Which is to be expected, and I bet elriels think the same of gwynriel. Eluciens tend to use elriel as a side ship to add tension to elucien, and elriels tend to use elucien because they have a canon bond, however "fake" they think it is. All three are rival ships after all.

What stand out though, is how even rival ships have more relevance in each tag, rather than the frankly puny number of works elriels popped out for a ship that they call "interesting, hot, endgame, true mates etc."

So yeah, I do not believe you.

"the fire lord and the firebird" or whatever they call it. If you shipped less based on Feyre's art dumping and paid more attention on actual romantic chemistry you'd realize vassien has none.

[hopelesslyhopeful11]

It’s VassIAN, not VassIEN: The Correct SJM Ship

I’ve seen the argument that Vassa and Lucien (VassIEN) will end up together and it makes no sense from an SJM standpoint. Not when Vassa and Jurian (Vassian) are right there!!

1. I present to you, honorable citizens, the evidence as told by text and SJM herself:

Exhibit A. Vassa was able to see through Jurian immediately (Chapter 54 of ACOWAR)

From Feyre with Rhysand; Cassian with Nesta; Rowan with Aelin, SJM notoriously writes about how her endgame couples are able to see through one another clearly. And Jurian has a history of being unreadable and even his best friend of years, Mor, wasn’t able to see through him, but this mortal queen he just met can? Seems more than a coin-winky-dink to me

Exhibit B. They are at each others throats just as SJM likes to write for many other endgame couples.

As you can see here, SJM loves writing couples (top images is from bottom left image is from Chapter 17 of ACOWAR) who are constantly at each others throats in a good way. She even admits so in this interview and her Facebook comment back in 2016 but the specific quote is “As soon as Nesta sat down at the table with Cassian, it was DONE for both of them—I literally could not keep them from each others throats (in the best way possible)”

Exhibit C. The banter is classic SJM endgame material.

The teasing and tension is screaming from the page. SJM says that banter is a clue for her endgame couples. What more do we need?

Exhibit D. They are two people working together to build the same vision for the future of their kingdom and people and honestly the same reactions to things

To mortals who are already working well together to build their kingdom in a good balance and have shown that they have endgame potential? Yeah it just makes sense

Exhibit E. Unreadable faces making pretty damning cases.

Across the maasiverse, people have unreadable faces when they are trying to mask emotions, I.e. Rhys all of ACOMAF and Nesta in ACOWAR—ACOSF. So what is Jurian hiding? Given everything else, one could safely bet his true feelings for the Firebird Mortal Queen.

In conclusion,

creds to @acourtdelaluna for her help with these points!!

[stargirlie25]

I believe this might be the reason anti gwynriels think targwyn has foreshadowing:

´´as if Gwyn had been a summer storm´´

´´And when Gwyn reached the finish line, bloody and panting and grinning so wildly her teal eyes glowed like a sunlit sea,´´

(IMO seas are in the NC)

Im going to tell you why this is not foreshadowing.

´´Nesta couldn’t stop it then. The answering smile that bloomed through her at last, stealing across her face, bright as the dawn´´

Does nesta belong in the Dawn court?

´´A glance at Az revealed his brother stone-faced, cold fury in his eyes.´´

´´But from the instant he’d met Nesta, the cold fire in her eyes had been a temptation of a different sort´´ Nesta and Azriel belong in the Winter court?

´´But Kallias smiled at his wife and mate, warm and bright enough that despite his icy coloring, he should have been the High Lord of Day´´ The literal Lord of the Winter court with pale coloring can smile as bright to be in the day court. That does not mean he is going to!

´´Mor’s answering grin was brighter than the entirety of the Day Court.´´ So mor belongs in the day court?

The answer to all of these are no. What you are spiritually matter. Not what you look like! I really don´t want to be mean......just pointing it out! All love ofc

[azrielsfavoriteshadow]

The way E/riels romanticize Vassa’s curse will never sit right with me.

Being a Bird of Flame is Vassa’s curse... From Koschei… An evil villain who has a flock of kidnapped women on his island... Who modified Vassa’s body without her consent… Hello??

Bird of Flame is not romantic. Vassa wants this curse broken and wants to continue to be a human queen (canon). Basing a romantic pairing solely off of a traumatic event of one of the characters is so odd.

But we all know you guys don’t truly care about Vassa.

[shadowqueenjude]

Ok so Elriels want Jurian to die now? Great great. They want Lucien to get rejected by his mate and then lose one of his best friends. Some romance. We'll be too busy crying in despair for Lucien to focus on the romance. PLUS Vassa is still human as far as we know, so she'll die soon. Triple tragedy for Lucien. Super romantic. Also what do you MEAN Jurian is not love interest worthy???? He's a freedom fighter???? He rizzed one of the High Fae to save his cause???? He outsmarted Hybern twice???? He's Lucien's bestie??? That last one alone makes him hotness personified, because Lucien only associates with hotties. Just saying.

[gwyns]

How can people “ship” Vassien when it’s stated that Jurian and Vassa are at each other’s throats? Sounds like they wanna fuck, but that’s just me.

how can people ship e/riel? it's a strange world out there, anon

i'm kidding ok i've been in fandoms long enough to know that anything can be shipped lol

it's true! jurian and vassa have insane sexual tension and want to fuck it out (or have already started? who knows!) but they ignore that because they understand that sjm is going to have everyone paired up by the end and if lucien can't be with vassa, then that just leaves one option and well... they don't like that option very much

[elrielffs]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not a huge Vassien shipper.

But contrary to popular belief I don't think they are gonna get together just because I ship Elriel.

It's because Lucien laugh's around Vassa, relaxes.

It's because Feyre describes Lucien talking about Vassa like an acolyte aka like he WORSHIPS her.

It's the fact that in Russian folklore, there is literally A Firebird and the Fox fairytale.

It's Feyre giving them their own moniker like Feysand, Elriel, Nessian:

“A bird of flame … and a lord of fire. I wondered if they’d found each other yet.”

The fact that Lucien was retconned to be the son of a Curse breaker.

It's the fact that when Koschei's curse on Vassa is brought up, this is mentioned:

Which is more of a reaction then he has EVER had for Elain, btw.

But the most damning of all to me is this:

"His mate. She was nothing like Jesminda. Jesminda had been all laughter and mischief, too wild and free to be contained by the country life that she’d been born into. She had teased him, taunted him—seduced him so thoroughly that he hadn’t wanted anything but her."

Lucien literally thought Jesminda was his mate before he met Elain, even after her death. Look at how he describes her, who does that description match? Elain or Vassa?

Antis try to say Elriels just ship Vassien cause we want Lucien out of the way and Vassian has no evidence but it has more than Gwynriel and Elucien combined.

[itselriel]

Elucien’s wanting everything for Lucien at the expense of Elain and not even considering how she feel about Azriel is so funny because imagine if Nesta and Lucien were a couple like Sarah intended and Nesta just left Lucien for Eris like Lucien stans would probably be singing a different tune because Nesta is “strong willed” and it’d be “justified” but Elain is just a “push over” and “needs to give ~poor little baby Lulu~ a chance” practically spelling out their misogyny and lack of empathy for softer women who people please to spare themselves confrontation for the whole fandom to see like if you take the basic Elriel + Elucien “throuple/love triangle” thing or whatever people call it and apply it to someone else it’s so obvious they just don’t like Elain but won’t say it, just ship Vassian and give those two happiness that’s not at the expense of another characters comfortability same sentiment applies to Gwynriel- ships at the expense of another character (usually females) comfortability is just plain gross like yes it’s a crackship, yes they’re fictional, yes it’s not real it’s about the way some people in this fandom impose they’re views on not giving women a choice or a voice and heaven forbid, they have an opinion (coincidentally those people are usually anti Feysand and the pregnancy trope and people love to argue if that was Feyre and Rhys’s choice but I digress, I guess forcing women into chairs they didn’t make for themselves only applies to fmc’s you already hate- furthering my point)

I agree with everything you said, however I do believe that if Nesta ignored Lucien for Eris, Lucien stans would most definitely hate Nesta. Have you seen how intense they are about “poor Lulu 🥺”. It’s obnoxious.