#as hes always envied laios for that

[thirteen-tn]

Im not immune to the laishuro propaganda 😔

Also this panel is a gem

[bonebabbles]

Toshiro Dungeon Meshi really said "I am an autistic man and I've suffered quietly my whole life, the way I'm supposed to, the way that's expected of me. The way you're supposed to, the way that I expect of you. It infuriates me that you don't. It envies me that you don't. I've never expressed this before because I don't know how and I snapped and all of my emotions came tumbling out and I said it in a way I don't actually mean, just like how you never mean it."

And then he said, "And then we fought. And you won, of course you did, and now we're talking openly because you're someone I CAN talk to. I always COULD talk to you. I just never DID. Of course you're taking this seriously. And you know I take it all seriously. Why are you like this? Why do I RECOIL every time you speak to me, even when you aren't doing anything wrong? How can a person even be like this?? Why do I sometimes wish that I could be like you?"

AND THEN HE SAID, "Wait. Please. I need you to know I do care about you. I can't tell you that directly because I have been taught my whole life that to love someone is to lessen their burden, to BE less of a burden, shrink yourself, don't have demands, don't have needs, don't eat more than the bare minimum to sustain yourself. I'm working on that now, because of my family, because of her, and because of you, but I still can't bring myself to settle the full weight of my being onto another person. Here is a magic bell that will let you safely become my burden. I will not lose you too."

The magic bell rolls around in Laios' bag and rings constantly because Toshiro didn't think to stuff it with a piece of paper before giving it to the most physically active fighter in the group who does all the runnining aroundening.

The one he JUST brawled for being imperceptive.

Blurting out that he would help him escape the Elf Cops took priority. He NEEDED Laios to know this so bad. I just know he was thinking about putting that bell in his hand as soon as he started sharing how he wished that he'd told Falin how much she meant to him sooner but was trying to think of the right moment. He was absolutely BESIEGED by the autistic swagger of the Touden siblings. How can you not start scratching the furniture thinking about it

[listles-s]

man laios and toshiro's/shuro's dynamic is incredibly compelling to me on multiple levels

when you look at them, you can see the cultural and personal barriers that drive almost every single aspect of their relationship, both positively and negatively. laios is incredibly outspoken and driven by his passions, which he expresses freely even in the face of annoyance and/or criticism- he's allowed to be as authentically himself as he pleases, and it's this drive that allows him and the others to survive as long as they have, especially due to the fact that these passions and interests are intertwined with his skills as a dungeon diver. toshiro, in contrast, is incredibly reserved, not only due to his eastern upbringing but also his status as nobility- a combo of cultures that both demand that one save face, to avoid conflict at any cost, even at the expense of one's own feelings and individuality. this, in turn, has made toshiro the perfect samurai, as he's politely-spoken, agreeable, and an honorable, skilled man. both are also incredibly devoted to falin on different levels, having come to accomplish the same mission of her rescue despite drifting apart from the party.

on the flipside, it's these same strengths that cause them to clash- laios is outspoken but unable to truly decipher the emotions of others, leading to a lot of false assumptions and frustration from those who interact with him. toshiro is stoic but to the point of complacency, leading to a aggressively neutral disposition that's ushered by the needs and wants of others, rather than himself. neither man truly knows where they stand with the people important to them in their lives, and hold the ones that they do know how they feel with a fierce admiration expressed in ways that aren't always traditional.

in the end, they both share a growing feeling of isolation from other people that comes to a head when they meet again in the depths of the dungeon, and they both have different ways of coping with the frustrations that arise, seeing the other as only the things they have seen face to face.

it's laios' ability to express himself emotionally without consequence that sparks jealousy in toshiro, leading to a physical fight born out of miscommunication and envy. while toshiro is a driving force in the conflict, it should be noted that the actual fight is started by laios, breaking the dam of indirect communication through force. nothing is more direct than a slap to the face, and it's only after they start hitting each other that toshiro's true feelings come to light.

however, at the end of it all, toshiro is the one who stops torturing himself, listening to laios and giving him the bell, allowing laios and his party entrance into his homeland should they need it, and ultimately giving him support in his mission to defeat the dungeon mage, albeit in his own way. despite it all, they're still good friends with a conflict that boiled over, but came out the other end with a slightly better understanding of each other. the fight was painful for both of them, but it was a necessity for their dynamic to improve, and for them to be made aware of their faults and improve as individuals as well.

but also, if you think about it, their dynamic is literally just this

[ellaphnt]

Shuro’s status of nobility has been brought up a few times when discussing his fight with Laios. I’m sure there’s credibility to the argument but the way it’s been used makes me go, “huh??”

I’ve seen his upbringing used in a negative context, usually to flatten his reasons for fighting with Laios. “oh he’s used to people listening to him so he’s never met anyone who doesn’t do exactly what he says” or “he’s never been exposed to anyone new or any new perspectives and that’s why he hated Laios”. I don’t think these opinions are salient in fan spaces but I saw it enough times I wanted to talk about it.

I feel like we just, forgot that Toshiro is a foreigner? The only poc in the party? And never interacted with gnomes, dwarves, and halffoots since they don’t live in the east? (well, the last point depends on how much you’ve seen from the Adventurer’s Bible)

Compared to everyone else, he probably had the MOST exposure to new people and experiences. And yet he was able to, best he can, quickly assimilate and harmonize with everyone in his new party. Regardless of what he thought about them, it seemed everyone else thought he was amicable. As a poc (and East Asian specifically), that’s mission accomplished.

With all that effort into making himself culturally digestible, it’s no wonder he resented/envied Laios. He put in all this effort to learn their status quo, to not offend the new people he’s meeting, only for Laios to not give him the same consideration. Both of them were socially inept in some way, but only one of them felt the need to do something about it. It’s important to note that their fight was a turning point for Laios too - he realize he had to be more aware and present for his team.

So Toshiro didn’t want to say no outright because it might set back the bonds he’s trying to form. Confrontation is hard, confrontation in a new country is harder. He settles for “close enough” because hey, it’s not that big of a deal. Their opinion of me is way more important than obtaining respect for myself. I’m the foreigner. This has the consequence of making him a pushover, but I digress. He seems to identify himself more as a foreigner than nobility.

And that had to do with separating his identity! The identify he has at his house was kept VERY separate from the one he has with Laios and co. He doesn’t want Laios’ party to know that he is nobility. He doesn’t even care that they call him by “first name”, albeit butchered. He never mentioned the retainers to them (since Chilchuck had to ask who they were).

The retainers are people he’d rather keep at a distance due to their connection with his dad. This might be why he joined Laios’ party solo given the opportunity. But as we see in the image below, they followed him into the dungeon ANYWAYS. You can’t convince me he wanted them to do that. They watch from a distance, disregarding Toshiro’s independence. They don’t always listen to him, they do what they think is best for him, which means they actually follow MAIZURU. To her, his status as their young master is very important, and therefore he needs to be waited on hand and foot. It’s not that he’s used to people doing stuff for him, it’s moreso Maizuru does it regardless.

What drives both identities is an inability to assert himself. He don’t think highly of himself (living under his father’s shadow) and it shows in how people treat him. With Laios and others, he had the opportunity to shape a new identity, but because Laios was the one that introduced him, he and everyone else just accepted the misconceptions. I’m sure Toshiro noted his surprisingly strong influence on his team, something he hasn’t achieved.

With his retainers and Maizuru specifically, she doesn’t put faith in his decisions. She tsked at the fact they went to save Falin, but obeyed anyways because he’s never asserted himself before. (Reminder that assertion is him on his knees requesting their help - the hierarchy of his upbringing does not feel ingrained in him. Giving me overly respectful and considerate vibes, the silly guy)

So he CAN do it! He CAN shape how people see him if he is able to open up a bit more. Rather than his nobility, it’s moreso that he’s never trusted anyone to open up to in the first place. He doesn’t fit in back home. He’s distant from Maizuru, he’s distant from Hien. He’s distant from his brothers and parents. He basically never had friends until Laios. This is his first friend too!!!

He finally opened up to him, and that’s going to pave the way for his character development in the future. He now has someone he can trust, someone to put his faith in, and someone to teach him how to communicate better. By airing his resentment, now all that’s left is that envy/admiration. He’s going to learn from that.

Edit: just because I like keeping things together, here’s more discussion about this post :P

[chuckeroo777]

Laios got Eaten AU Chapters 53-85

Chapters 1-52 <- Be sure to read part 1. Falin being alive does cause some ripple effects which will continue in this part.

Welcome back! Today we continue where the anime cut off. We'll be going all the way to right before the final confrontation. (Mainly because I haven't figured out how to resolve that yet. I might do two versions, a good end, and a bad end.)

Let's get going! Massive spoiler warning for canon, if it wasn't obvious.

Chapter 53-54:

Same as canon.

Chapter 55:

Everything is mostly the same except Laios shows up instead of Falin. When escaping, Laios is much less gentle with Thistle.

Falin gets turned into a gnome by the giant changling. She is quite smitten by ogre Marcille, though she tries to hide it.

While Seshi and Chilchuck prepare the burgers, Falin assists with the ointment. With her healing expertise, it turns out even better, and she prevents Senshi from using it to cook.

Chapter 56:

Chilchuck has been noticeably grumpier than usual. Not only has Marcille been bugging him about his wife, but the tension between Marcille and Falin is really getting on his nerves. As before, he claims to have cheated to shut her up.

They spot the bicorn and Falin looks it up in the guide. They come up with the plan to be sinful.

When doing envy, Marcille can't help but be annoyed how Chilchuck has been giving her and Falin such judgemental looks, but then he goes and flirts with Senshi.

Without Laios, greed is a little tricky. Falin yoinks Ambrosia, and plays keep-away for a bit. She's giggling so much, she nearly forgets about the bicorn.

Then Lust gets brought up. Chilchuck and Izutsumi stare at Falin and Marcille, but before they can defend themselves, Senshi points out that it isn't lust when it's between two people who respect each other. Marcille then tentatively suggests that maybe Chilchuck's infidelity counts.

After Chilchuck gets attacked, Falin and Senshi rush into action. Falin can't body check it, but a mace to the face has the same effect. They manage to restrain it, then Senshi beheads it.

Falin is very impressed by Marcille's romantic acumen. Chilchuck is mostly left wondering why the romance expert is having such trouble admitting her feelings.

Chapter 57:

The dullahan is a type of ghost, so Falin has no trouble warding it off.

Much to Marcille's chagrin, Senshi decides to start with the head, since those parts don't preserve as well as the muscle.

Chapter 58-59:

When Senshi is discovered, it's Chilchuck who fills the party in about succubi. Unlike Laios, Falin doesn't rush off to grab milk, but she does start sweating profusely.

Thanks to there being three of them conscious in the room, they last a bit longer against the succubi, but when a succubus appears targeting Falin, things quickly break down.

Falin's succubus... is Marcille. But not merely Marcille. Due to a rather lonely childhood, Falin has a few fetishes she had been repressing. The succubus reflecting them for all to see. If she hadn't had her life force drained, she would probably have fainted from the shame and embarrassment.

Izutsumi saves the day, and everyone slowly recovers.

Marcille and Falin are mortified, and can barely even look at each other. Chilchuck finally reaches his breaking point and demands that the two of them talk about their feelings instead of continuing to bottle them up.

They end up having a heartwarming conversation where they confess their feelings. Marcille confesses that she always felt caring and protective of Falin, but the strangely fluctuating age gap made her way too uncomfortable to admit she was developing romantic feelings. But now that they are both adults, she wants to give this a try. Falin confesses that she always admired Marcille and wanted to get closer, but Marcille kept (unintentionally) rejecting her advances, so she just assumed she wasn't into her, which is why she stopped trying. Falin is so glad she was wrong. The two share a loving hug.

Chilchuck is happy for them to finally have these feelings out in the open, and they don't seem to be the sort that used to cause issues in his old groups. However, as the resident dad, he puts his foot down and insists that until this adventure is over, no sleeping together.

Speaking of sleeping together, that reminds Marcille of the dream she had while unconscious.

Chapter 60:

Marcille's dream with the Lion is similar to Laios', but with a few key differences.

Instead of appealing to Laios' care for the monsters and environment, the lion talks about how it IS the power of the dungeon. The power that the ancients discovered and misused. The very power that Marcille has desperately been looking for.

This is all very tempting for her, but she's still uncertain about becoming queen of the golden country, so the lion creates the hypothetical dream.

Marcille 'wakes' to find herself in bed with Falin. After changing out of their pajamas, they explore with the lion. Marcille's kingdom is a place where all the races are treated equally, with magic prolonging their lives to match hers.

She has also incorporated her ideas about a 'safe dungeon', expanding on the golden country's monster domestication to allow the harvesting of all sorts of useful things. Laios is in charge of this program.

Overall, it's all very nice and reasonable. As the audience, we know the lion will actually convince her to try and envelop the world, but for now the scope is realistic.

Marcille doesn't remember most of the dream, but relates that the lion is watching them through Falin's pearlipede. She talks a little about the 'safe dungeon' stuff, but keeps the whole age equalization thing close to her chest. And of course, beware the canaries.

Chapter 61:

Mostly the same, though Kabru's reaction to having to eat monsters is a little less severe. He hates it, but Falin and her group seemed sane enough. He isn't worried about going insane like Laios, he's just severely repulsed by it.

Kabru's nightmare is about the Laigon, stalking and hunting him down before eating him whole. Somehow, despite the massive changes, Kabru still manages to be disgusted yet intrigued about Laios.

Chapter 62:

The first half is identical, with Mithrun's story.

But when they start talking about Falin, that's when they get a bit confused. Despite Kabu's skill, he couldn't get a good read on Falin's desires. She is friendly and kind and thinks monsters are neat, but he's really unsure what would happen if she became lord of the dungeon. The only strong desire Kabru could identify was her unyielding determination to save her brother.

Mithrun begins to suspect that Falin isn't the one the demon is targeting, but unfortunately, Kabru doesn't know enough about the rest of the party to deduce who it could be.

Once the bell goes off, Kabru isn't worried about Falin, but with the demon involved, and so many unknown variables, he decides to go after them.

Chapter 63:

Falin's pearlipede leads them to Thistle's house, and they cautiously make their way in after shooting the bird.

The phoenix proves difficult, but Falin's flame wards buy them enough time to realize it's keeping its distance from the table with the bodies. They manage to weaponize Yaad and defeat and eat the bird.

Chapter 64-65:

Marcille wrenches open the book and they meet the lion. They begin thinking of a way to take down the Laigon.

Falin points out that if the Laigon is hanging out with Thistle, then it hasn't been sleeping or hunting, so her brother is probably really hungry. Senshi points out that flight is very energetically demanding too, and his mouth is real small.

They quickly get to work. The rest of this chapter and chapter 65 are skipped, since they still have plenty of bicorn meat. Notably, due to the Laigon being able to fly, they will arrive quicker, but the gang doesn't need to hunt, so it works out.

Chapter 66:

Between his panicking and self-harm, Thistle takes a bit longer to figure out what to do, since the Laigon doesn't comfort him like the Faligon did.

Chapter 67:

As they watch Thistle and the Laigon arrive, Falin is having second thoughts. Seeing him again is making her think about the plan to eat the dragon parts later. After all, isn't this exactly what Laios always wanted? But can he even survive on the surface like that? What if they save and restore him... and he's furious with her for ruining his dream.

The Laigon takes the bait and excitedly (and messily) devours the bicorn curry and rice. He then curls up and goes to sleep.

Unlike Laios, Falin doesn't consider that the chimera might have more than one brain. Tears in her eyes, she carefully approaches, and swings her mace-staff with all her might.

Falin breaks down crying. Marcille sees the results, and heals Laios' fractured head without reviving him. Now he's just sleeping. After a group hug to comfort her, Falin redoubles her determination, and they go to confront Thistle.

Chapter 68:

Identical, other than some slight name-drop changes.

Chapter 69:

Marcille has long term plans for being dungeon lord, but for now they plan to just use it to help Laios.

Falin isn't surprised to hear that Marcille is a half-elf. She suspected for a while. However, Thistle's callous taunting quickly pisses her off, and when he mentions the sterility, he nearly falls over as a stone spike erupts through the table and nearly impales him.

Infuriated, Thistle warps the room and unleashes the dragons.

The rest of the chapter plays out the same, with everyone getting separated. Falin escapes to the shelf, but everyone else gets got.

Chapter 70:

As the dragons begin fighting each other, Falin hides behind some bowls and starts chanting something while keeping an eye on Thistle.

Once he is distracted shouting orders at the dragons, she takes careful aim with her staff, and unleashes her spell, teleporting right behind Thistle, and disarming him. She may not be as burly as Laios, but Falin is a tough girl, and is easily able to overpower the elf twink.

Chapter 71:

She ties him up to her back and starts retrieving everyone's bodies.

Thistle cries fraud, and Falin explains that teleportation is actually a fairly recent invention. No wonder Thistle was terrified of Mithrun. This is the sort of magic not even the ancients were aware of.

Falin is still furious at Thistle, but decides to make a deal with him. He may choose. Either she kills him, and the party does as they please, or he may dispel the dragons and restore the room, and remain as their prisoner. If he does this, he has her word that they will do nothing to harm the people of the golden country.

Chapter 72:

Thistle, terrified what they may do to his people (An empty implied threat, but Thistle doesn't know that), reluctantly agrees. She lets him have his book just long enough to dispel his magic (Under threat that she'll teleport a rock into his head if he doesn't return it right away. Another empty threat), then she ties him up again, using proper rope, so he can't even move.

Falin revives the rest of the party. Marcille is very distraught that she died, and hugs Falin tightly. They are all very impressed that Falin managed to pull it off.

The lion is miffed that it can't feed on Thistle's desires while its current marks are watching. To make matters worse, Marcille is in no hurry to unseal the book, slamming it shut so she can rest after being revived.

Marcille and Falin talk about half-elves while Isutsumi and Chilchuck go grab drinks. Thistle continues to seethe.

Senshi prepares the tiny green dragon. He doesn't have the plant nectar, but it still turns out great. They feed some to the tied up Thistle. He reluctantly admits it's pretty good.

The gang take shifts over the night to watch the prisoner. As a curse of immortality person, Thistle doesn't need to sleep.

Chapter 73-74:

Marcille wakes up with a massive hangover. For a moment, she conflates a dream she had with last night, and panics that her first 'time' with Falin wasn't in her right mind.

Kabru arrives with the canaries. No one knows about Marcille's black magic, and Falin is pretty reasonable, so Kabru is optimistic about this meeting between them and the canaries.

Izutsumi and Marcille hide upstairs, Senshi prepares tea stuff, and Thistle sits in the corner, still seething.

Negotiations... go shockingly well! The canaries are impressed they were able to capture Thistle alive, and after a little questioning, it's clear Falin hasn't fallen under the dungeon's spell. They are a little grossed out by the bavarois, but most adventurers are a little weird.

When Falin mentions the lion, Kabru asks for permission to explain the danger. After all, the reason demon discussion is banned is to hide the existence of wish granting, and they already know about that part.

With Chilchuck and Kabru's help, Falin ends up coming to a very satisfactory deal with the elves. They will hand over Thistle and the books, on the condition that the canaries' forces provide all the assistance they can in preserving, transporting, and eating Laios. Falin is even able to cite the phoenix as evidence that this plan is viable.

Falin and Pattadol shake on it, and everyone is excited that the danger has passed.

Unfortunately, this premature happy ending is disrupted by something everyone forgot about.

Falin's pearlipede is privy to this entire conversation. And so is the lion. It manages to pop out of the unsealed half, and warns Marcille about the canaries, fueling her fear, and when Mithrun breaks into her room as the negotiations are being finalized, Marcille panics and unseals the lion.

Chapter 75:

Chaos erupts in the house as no one is quite sure what is going on. The canaries rush upstairs to help Mithrun, but they fail to stop Marcille before she declares her lordship.

The canaries are attacked by giant spiders while Marcille absconds. She vanishes before Falin or the others can see her. Falin's party heads upstairs to find Marcille, but only find dead spiders and wrapped up elves.

Chapter 76:

They help Lycion and Kabru carry everyone outside, including Thistle. Lycion fills Falin in on what happened upstairs and she is mortified. They leave Thistle with them, and head out into the remixed dungeon to try and find Marcille and talk her down.

Chapter 77-78:

Everyone receives word that Falin has taken down the lord of the dungeon.

When the chaos starts to unfold, Flamela receives an update from Lycion. Negotiations had been going well with Falin, but a member of her party went rogue, and is now the lord.

With Falin's party confirmed to be working to stop Marcille, the canaries do not attack them, instead focusing on finding Marcille.

Worried that the elves will kill Marcille, Namari, Toshiro, and the Orcs head out to try and find Marcille or Falin first.

Chapter 79-80:

Marcille has approximately 25% less longing in her eyes as she stares at Laios frozen in ice.

Not being in quite the same rush as canon, they don't accidentally fall in the water, instead running down the stairs.

They find the mushrooms and retrieve their stuff. The familiars are disconcerting, but at least they are ostensibly on their side.

They attempt to head in the direction the mushrooms were heading, but don't get far before hitting a dead end. As they try to figure out what to do, a massive flying snake pounces and gobbles them up.

The party panics as the long thin chamber begins to slowly fill with fluid. With the mouth clamped shut, they decide to run as far back as they can. Falin is pretty sure intestines don't have acid, right?

After a harrowing few minutes, they are pooped out in Marcille's front yard.

After reuniting and bathing, Falin tells Marcille about their deal with the canaries, and implores Marcille to reconsider.

Marcille refuses and reveals her dream. Falin doesn't laugh at her, but is concerned. She remembers how miserable the people of the golden country were. Surely the dungeon's power can only extend lives through that same curse.

Notably, due to not eating Thistle, the lion is still in its quadrupedal form. The lion does its best to convince Falin and the others, but after what Kabru told them about the demon, it rings pretty hollow.

Falin refuses to help the demon, not wanting Marcille to become another Thistle.

Marcille is upset, and decides she can make her dream come true by herself. She has the gang confined to the kitchen. She'll do it herself, and they'll see how lovely her dream is later.

Chapter 81:

Falin has no idea what kind of monster Donato is.

Operation Hometown Cuisine proceeds as normal, though Falin doesn't have the realization about Marcille's fears, since she didn't pry into her nightmare.

After failing her persuasion roll on Marcille, Falin gets fed up and grabs Donato's hand, then teleports the doppelganger out of the tree.

Chapter 82:

Identical.

Chapter 83:

Mostly the same. Kabru isn't a prisoner. While the canaries prepare to fight the monster army, they have Kabru escort Thistle to the entrance. Thistle is mostly just resigned at this point. He spots the golden country as part of the new patchwork dungeon, and notices it is off in the corner away from the action. At least Marcille isn't putting them in danger.

Kabru meets up with Toshiro, Namari, and the orcs.

Chapter 84:

Ofc Falin also comes up with the mushroom disguises. Toshiro isn't sure how to feel seeing Falin dressed as a big dumb shroom.

Falin frantically explains how she's pretty sure the lion had been grooming Marcille to be the lord the whole time. That's why she's so out of control.

Lycion explains that when things get this bad, the only solution is to kill the dungeon lord. Thistle calls bullshit. He lost the position without being killed. Lycion clarifies that as long as the demon supports them, there is no other solution.

So Falin proposes they deal with the demon itself.

Lycion shoots that down too. As everyone heads out to fight the monsters, Falin is left despondent.

At Marcille's behest, the lion possesses the pearlipede, engulfing her arm, and speaks to Falin. It tries to convince her to join Marcille. After all, don't they love each other? Chilchuck retorts that if you really love someone, both sides have to be willing to compromise.

The lion tries another tactic. It asks about their favorite foods. Falin's favorite food is ice cream, particularly a swirl of orange sherbet and vanilla ice cream. (If she had been given the chance, she would have discovered exorcism sorbet to be her favorite.)

Unlike Laios, who realizes the lion's weakness in this fight, Falin is just left feeling even more hopeless. But ultimately, she decides to head for Marcille, not knowing what else to do.

Chapter 85:

Falin is quite delighted to see Laios, and is sure it means Marcille isn't too far gone.

Things proceed mostly the same, except Falin again poofs the doppelgangers away. As the party keeps climbing towards Marcille, Falin throws out the armor piercing questions. If Marcille is so callous to create fake versions of her parents, why not just create fake versions of her friends that agree with her dream.

Because a fake isn't the real thing. And what Falin wants is Marcille. The real Marcille.

Marcille starts to break down, admitting that the whole reason she's doing this is because she can't stand the thought of losing Falin and the rest of her friends.

Falin gently embraces Marcille, and explains. If Marcille spends all her time worrying about when their time together will end, then they won't get to enjoy the time they do have together. As they look deep into each other's eyes, Marcille's eyes swimming with tears, she leans forward and-

Senshi ruins the moment by explaining that they already know how to live longer healthier lives. A BALANCED DIET! A HEALTHY CIRCADIAN RHYTHM! AND MODERATE EXERCISE.

The moment is ruined, but it's okay. Marcille clings to Falin as she can't help but laugh as she sobs. Falin smiles and gently rubs Marcille's back. Everything finally feels like it's going to be okay.

Right?

Chapter 86-Finale

[monstertidbits]

like i hate shuro so much but. you ever think about how he admitted to being envious of laios? how he wished he could be as genuine, as sincere as laios is, and connect deeply with the people he truly cares about, like falin? he is envy of the man who is everything he is not; the man who came to this island of his own accord, to chase his own dreams, unlike shuro who was sent by his father basically to figure out what would satisfy his dad enough to make him worthy of being his successor. and there he meets laios, a man who left his home and his parents' expectations of himself behind to go figure out where he could belong. they are on two entirely different paths, and it's not so much their personalities clashing as it's their upbringings and the effects' those had on them. and laios admires shuro so much, and loves listening to his tales of foreign lands; he couldn't fathom what a man like shuro could possibly be jealous of him for. but shuro, despite having the more experience of the two, is the one who is narrow minded, unimpressive in his way of thinking and approach to the challenges he faces. and laios baffles him time and time again, so different than any other man he encountered so far. it makes him so annoyed at times, maybe because he sees in laios what his father sent him off to discover in himself, but he couldn't put his finger on it quite yet. the thing is, when it all came down to putting themselves out there and shuro being truthful, it ended in fondness, not contempt. and laios can't see it himself, but those closest to shuro recognized the change that man evoked in him. and for that, if nothing else, shuro would always be grateful.

[nyandaah]

I don't know how to articulate my thoughts on it consicely (as usual, hence why I rarely ever write posts here anymore), but ever since this week's dunmesh ep I can't stop thinking about That scene between toshiro and laios and how it's been talked about as a piece of representation of the neurodivergent struggle.

I've seen those panels countless times before the anime got to it, and I can't understate how Real of a thing it is that we're seeing through laios- that pain and frustration that comes from having the rug pulled under you in being told that been getting it Wrong the whole time and nobody's bothered to point out the donkey tail pinned on your ass.

but I think that's only the first half of the statement, and the way people talk (and don't talk) about toshiro does the moment a disservice.

seeing how people talk about it before getting to the scene itself, it ended up catching me off-guard how much of a Person toshiro is. he's always talked about as the strawman or the figure representing neurotypical society- the one that others us.

I see where it's all coming from, he's not a likeable character to most of the fandom for reasons I won't hold anyone against, but again- he's an important part of the picture that dunmesh paints of the nd struggle.

I find it absurd to portray toshiro as a representation of the 'average'. being both of royalty and of a culture that has instilled upon him his own values and expectations when it comes to socialization. it's why the inclusion of his retainers (especially maizuru) was a brilliant story decision; alongside laios', we get to see HIS social ineptitudes and how central they are to HIS character.

like. a major point of grievance many of the audience has with toshiro is his rose-tinted 'romance' with obviously-uninterested falin. I get it, especially if you've experienced that type of engagement with an unwanted pursuer. but dear lord if that doesn't perfectly parallel him with laios as a fellow Socially Inept Man.

it hit me as much as laios hit me when he said he envied our boy's sincerity. because that's a true and often less talked about part of the neurodivergent struggle(tm)- the difficulty to express your feelings. just like the other end of the spectrum, it hurts yourself as much as it hurts others.

as someone whose brain problems often manifest as social anxiety and feeling like i'm either unable to or unworthy of expressing how I feel, I envy laios too.

tl;dr- there are two characters present in that scene in episode 17.

[fallloverfic]

Me: I read/watch Delicious in Dungeon for The Plot The Plot (spoilers for S01E17: Harpy/Chimera; CW blood and injury):

And this episode we have the absolute best problem: THERE'S SO MUCH OF IT alkdjaljda

I always loved this bit in the manga, with Kabru using logic to point out that Toshiro's frustration, while valid from a legal standpoint (and debatably from an ethical one), doesn't make any sense because he'd have done the same thing in Laios' shoes. Kabru defending Laios :3

Kabru being supportive of Laios more T-T The soft looks. Love them so much.

There's just something very compelling about how Toshiro is holding his hips in this shot alkjdlajda

I know Toshiro was miserable during this but they are really cute together T-T Poor Laios wanting to be friends and being very bad at it, which is a total mood.

Kabru protecc :3333 I just love seeing so much of Kabru's strategic mind at work this episode. He's always thinking and planning something and I love it.

This shot was just really fucking good. In the manga, Kabru's slightly cropped out of the panel, but the way Trigger like fully defines his musculature is nice. Poor Falin :( Is okay, she gets her revenge and kills him back roflmao

Blessed Plot TM.

Just Them TM. Themmmm. So good.

Couples counseling goes swimmingly alkdjaldja Also I know that Toshiro is holding Laios' leg so that Laios stops kicking his hip/ass but also that leg grab alkdjaldjalj

MEANWHILE THE BABIESSS. Just love them T-T Kabru just being like -very modest about his own abilities-, learning for future combat situations, and also, "This man is insane and dangerous." aalkdjaldj

I want it noted that this is Kabru looking at Laios, and while obviously the idea is to focus on Laios' obsession with monsters and the danger that poses were he to become lord of the dungeon, I keep think about that slo-mo pan-up shot and how beautifully Laios is posed here. Just Labru thoughts.

So soft for each other, these two. Frustration, aggravation, annoyance, pain, but also envy and softness. Toshiro's little, "That's the part of you that I envy." just kills me. Lots of Toshiro softness this episode. His Japanese VA did an excellent job showing his softness for Falin. Also Laios' constant YOU NEED TO EAT SOMETHING kept getting to me alkdjaldja

THEMMMMMMM They end meeeee T-T "I'm glad we got to chat" just ahhhhhh

I don't think Laios is going to forget you any time soon Kabru aldkjaldjalj Bless the animation of Kabru he is so beautiful and just ahhh

This episode was so fucking good. Looking forward to next week :3

Other delicious Plot:

The Plot in Episode 3

The Plot in Episode 7

The Plot in Episode 9

The Plot in Episode 11

The Plot in Episode 13

The Plot in Episode 14

The Plot in Episode 15

The Plot in Episode 16

The Plot in Episode 17 (you are here)

The Plot in Episode 18

The Plot in Episode 20

The Plot in Episode 21

The Plot in Episode 24

[bi-hop]

coming back to the kabru is like jesus if he was judas comparison. I think it's interesting that kabru always knew that he couldn't be the one to conquer the dungeon so he wanted to find people who could and support them, because he knows he's an excellent judge of character.

but the thing is, he still wants to be the hero. he still has a saviour complex. he's still envious that laios of all people is the one who has the potential to beat the mage. i think he wanted to be the one™ in some way . he *needed* to be needed by laios, he wanted to be like hermes, a psychopomp, or maybe charon, the ferryman that guides laios. so when laios /ignored/ him (not laios' fault truly he just . bad timing. sorry kabru) he felt resentful and yet even more determined to get in laios' orbit, to be the light. to be important in his eyes, like, judas when he said to the woman who used expensive oil to clean jesus ' feet. he said "why not just give it to the poor?" because he wanted praise. he wanted his teacher to look at him and go "look, i listened to you! i know what you teach!"

thats why laios rubbed off on him and he used a nutrition metaphor even because hes like. he wants to be jesus (the one to sacrifice himself and save the world from the dungeons to prevent another utaya) but hes judas (the adversary. the supporter from the shadows. the one who shows the soldiers (canaries) who jesus is. the one who " reported " him in the first place)

anyway yeah I think he has. a Jesus complex and when he met Laios he got mad with envy because he realized he was Judas help me

this is so good, turning it over in my head.

an element of kabru's character that grabbed me early on and is reinforced as he begins to bet on laios is his preoccupation with morality. people complain about the murder (bc people are lame BUT I DIGRESS!) but don't typically focus on the justifications he gives. even without knowing about the demon's nature, he is able to understand that greed and violence will only beget more of the same as those who can adapt will turn worse and those who cannot will be exploited or flee. for him, it's like ripping out weeds from a garden to protect what he cherishes.

I agree that he feels very self-critical when he finally admits that he can't be the knight in shining armor that he wants to be, due to his inability to survive as long as he wants in the dungeon. even without the motivation of going back to save falin, laios and his party had already went further on a regular basis than he has.

(shake me if I'm remembering wrong, but when we first meet kabru's party, isn't it one of their first times ever successfully making it to the third floor? lmao.)

and so the point to me was always that, yes, kabru wants to be the guy and yes, his party supports him as the guy, but realistically? he'd need someone else to at the very least support him. but he's very practical so it made immediate sense to me that he'd start looking for someone who he can either trust to take on the role or who is capable enough to get to a point where kabru could then take over. (again, all pre-finding out what being a dungeon lord truly means)

despite the latter being an option though, kabru's preoccupation with morality still stands. if he was truly the cold rational being some people seem to see him as, it would have been simple to simply throw his lot in with the first strong yet horrible person he observed. but he's picky selective. even with laios as his choice, he's CONSTANTLY fighting The Demons about it. his nightmare alone makes it clear that he has extremely well-rooted doubts and fears about what laios might do.

^ funniest page ever to me btw

but despite that, he still continually does the work of supporting him, albeit with a lot of setbacks and complications OADSJDODSOJD

i don't necessarily think the lens that we're currently taking is what ryoko intended but to conclude it is funny the themes of betrayal because technically kabru does betray laios' trust once lycion's like "ayo, he hates monster food btw, he's a SNAKE" and then he fumbles his way into... sort of regaining it? kinda? of course, by post-canon, he has it fully back, but speaking exclusively of the main story here.

[toudencestyay]

Re: Falin's perception of Laios.....Yeah Falin has always seen Laios as "cool big brother" but there's something eyebrow raising about seeing him as a grossly handsome cool-guy so far removed from everyone else's take on him. Kui is several paces away from making a Falin brocon joke.

On that note, I wonder how Laios sees Falin... his image of Marcille focused on how she looked resurrecting Falin, so I wonder if his childhood memories, or other thoughts about her, might frame his perception of her.

I think laios has more questions to answer about his sister complex. Her chimera form definitely made him feel some type of way. Kabru knows.

For what it is of his perception of falin, I believe his feelings are quite complex. I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of envy that he feels towards her alongside his adoration. Despite having arguably suffered from much more discrimination than laios, she maintains an absolute unconditional love for humanity. She ended up making a home at the academy she was sent off to when he couldn't fit in at the army - something he chose to do for her sake mind you -. Maybe "inferiority complex" is a better way to put it. His visions when he was attacked by the dungeon ghosts imply that he doesn't think his friends would bother fighting for him if he was eaten. I believe that the man he idolize disliking him and being in love with her only twist the knife further. Alongside with this feeling of inferiority, there's definitely dependance. It is very clear that at the start of the story, falin as a sort of glue between laios and the rest of the group. And without her, it becomes clear that the group aren't very tolerant of his antics. As much as it hurt, I don't think falin need laios quite as much as he need her. As showcased by this page.

Laios said so himself. Falin's disappearance forced him to make decisions that he would never have made.

His relationships with his group also improve dramatically over the course of the story. In all honesty, if laios was never forced to live without falin for a while, we might have ended up with a more unhealthy and codependent dynamic between the two.

To finally return to falin, I can't lie that I don't think as much about her perspective because it's just isn't as developed as much in the story. Though I think it's worth noting that she share laios's enthusiasm for monster food. A side of her that marcille, and you can assume shuros, doesn't really like about her. So I think there's this little weird side of her that she can only comfortably express with her brother. It's also interesting, the way she abandon school the moment that she sees laios in his sorry state. Was it the longing for her brother or the urge to take care of him that motivated her?

To end this, I want to add that despite seeing laios at his most pathetic and nagging him about his hygiene and appearance, there's a sense that falin's esteem of him never flinched. She's still in awe when he brag about the monsters he slayed. She still call him a genius without any hint of irony.

So there's definitely still a lot of the adoring little sister that cling to laios's arm inside our current falin.

Sorry for such a long answer. It probably didn't really answer your question but this ask made the gear in my brain spin and I couldn't stop xd I hope you enjoyed reading this at least.

[nemesis-is-my-middle-name]

i don't know maybe it's the translation i read but i guess i always thought it was made fairly clear that shuro never legitimately hated laios so much as he resented him for being able to be the way he was. much like laios (albeit for very different reasons) shuro's affect is frequently commented on by others to be strange and at a mismatch with the prevailing culture around him, being very reticent to the point of the part where he tells the girl he likes that he likes her being when he Proposed. quite a few characters say something to this effect! shuro was raised in formality and stoicism and i think has a tendency towards not rocking the boat even besides that, and now here's this guy who breaks every one of his rules and he makes it look so easy. it's like a two-pronged frustration of "doesn't this guy understand that you can't just do that" and "fuck, what would it feel like to be able to do that." of course he gets mad! it's frustration, but it's also envy.

[whisperthatruns]

In lovely blue blooms the steeple with its metal roof. Around the roof swirls the swallows’ cry, surrounded by most touching blue. The sun rises high above and tints the roof tin. But in the wind beyond, silently, a weathercock crows. When someone comes forth from the stairs of the belfry, it is a still life. And though the form is so utterly strange, it becomes the figure of a human being. The windows out of which the bells resound are as gates to beauty. Because gates still take after nature they resemble forest trees. Purity, too, is beauty. From within, out of diverse things, a grave spirit emerges. So simple, these images, so holy, that one often fears to describe them. But the heavenly ones, always good, possess, even more than the wealthy, virtue and joy. Humans may follow suit. Might a person, when life is full of trouble, look up and say: I, too, want to be like this? Yes. As long as friendliness and purity dwell in our hearts, we may measure ourselves not unfavorably with the divine. Is God unknown? Is he manifest as the sky? This I tend to believe. It is the measure of the human. Deserving, yet poetically, we dwell on this earth. The shadow of night with its stars, if I may say so, is no purer than we who exist in the image of the divine.

Is there measure on earth? There is none. For the creator’s worlds can never contain the clap of thunder. Because it blooms under the sun, a flower, too, is beautiful. In life, the eye often finds creatures to call more beautiful still than flowers. Oh! I know this well! For to bleed in body and heart and cease to be whole— does this please God? The soul, I believe, must remain pure, or else the eagle will wing its way to the almighty with songs of praise and the voice of so many birds. It is substance and it is form. Beautiful little brook, so touching you seem as you roll so clear, like the eye of God, through the Milky Way. I know you well. But tears stream from my eyes. A clear life I see in the forms of creation that blooms around me because I do not compare them unreasonably with the lonely pigeons in the churchyard. People’s laughter seems to grieve me—after all, I have a heart. Would I like to be a comet? I believe so. For they have the quickness of birds, they blossom in fire, and in their purity is as children’s. To wish for more is beyond the measure of human nature. The clarity of virtue also deserves praise from the grave spirit that blows between the garden’s three pillars. A beautiful virgin must garland her head with myrtle, for to do so is simply her nature and her sensibility. But myrtle trees are found in Greece.

When a person looks into a mirror and sees his image, as if painted, that is like the Manes. The human form has eyes, but the moon has light. Perhaps King Oedipus had an eye too many. This man’s suffering seems indescribable, unspeakable, inexpressible. When the drama presents it so, so it is. But how is it with me? Am I thinking now of your suffering? Like brooks, the end of Something as vast as Asia is carrying me toward it. Oedipus, of course, suffered like this, too; and certainly for the same reason. Did Hercules suffer as well? Of course. Did not the Dioscuri, too, in their friendship bear pain? As Hercules fought with God—that is suffering. And immortality in envy of this life— to divide these two—that, too, is suffering. But it is also suffering when a person is covered with freckles— to be completely covered with freckles! The beautiful sun does that, for it draws out everything. The path seduces the young with the charm of its rays, like roses. Oedipus’s suffering is like a poor man wailing that he is deprived. Son Laios, poor stranger in Greece. Life is death, and death is also a life.

Friedrich Hölderlin, “In lieblicher Bläue” (“In lovely blue”), trans. Glenn Wallis (x)