#barbarians meta

[somewhatsentientspellbook]

It has been such a pleasure over the last few episodes, seeing Ashton embrace the title of ‘hero.’ The moves that they are making are really cementing themself as a leader with a desire to positively affect the world. I love this shade on Ashton, and I can’t wait to see where it goes, though I have been struck with a somewhat worrying/exciting thought.

Not too long ago, I was reminded of Taliesin’s original plans for Percy, that plan being that his story would end tragically. Of course, we know that the story didn’t turn out that way, and Percy is now living in Whitestone with his wife and children. But it got me thinking that Caduceus’ character wasn’t designed with classic tragedy in mind, and also achieved a happy ending. Then I started to consider Mollymauk. Did Taliesin intend for the tiefling to have the tragic end he got? My gut instinct is to say no.

That's how this table came into existence:

We’ve got a missing spot, don’t we? We’re missing a character that successfully achieves its predetermined tragic ending.

Taliesin has a love for creating characters with questionable and self-destructive coping mechanisms. Percy and his affinity for making deals with demonic entities and creating weapons capable of untold destruction, Molly and his hedonism and indulgence of drugs, alcohol, and mischief, and even Caduceus’ repression and ignorance towards anything that makes him uncomfortable. Ashton Greymoore is no exception. Their anger, gambling and alcoholism are all one big coping mechanism for their childhood and chronic pain.

Part of me believes that this hero mentality has become another coping mechanism for Ashton to abuse. By stepping up, Ashton has been lifting the burden of leadership from other party members, the notable cases being Laudna, Orym, and FCG. He’s been encouraging them to explore their emotions, and ever since the Solstice, he has made himself the person they can lean on for support. Ashton wants to be a hero, even if it’s at the expense of their own well-being.

Ashton has made it clear on multiple occasions that their chronic pain is handled better under greater pressure, and soft, delicate touches cause them far more discomfort (even if the softer touches lead to less trouble in the long-term). But the problem with becoming a ‘rock’ for others is that Ashton must put himself under immense emotional pressure. While they may handle it far better in the short-term, that tactic is going to cause more damage the longer they indulge it. I feel like the lyrics of ‘Heroes' by Emmy Curie best describe my feelings on the matter:

"But you’re forgetting the thing about heroes, kid, they always have to fall"

(For the record, the song is simplistic but pretty, and I highly recommend listening to the whole thing. The lyrics apply to so many characters, and not just from Critical Role)

While I love this arc for Ashton, part of me is left wondering if Taliesin has been building up this character for the purpose of falling even further. Is Ashton going to achieve the tragic ending that Percy was deprived of? Will he be the one to occupy the final quadrant of that table?

[bonesfool]

Something something about how (imo) Gorgug has the weakest internal arc in sophomore year, where the ultimate antagonistic force/challenge to overcome is FEAR. Gorgug is shy, nervous maybe, but he is not naturally inclined towards being afraid, not the way his friends are

And in this season his arc has been thrust forward when they are working to oppose/succeed against ANGER

In a fight or flight moment, at his core, Gorgug is FIGHT. He does not flinch from away from threats, especially when they are targeted at the things he loves, he stands steady, he swings- It’s Gorgug, KEEP GOING- he endures

When things are uncertain, unfair, unjust- Gorgug is the force that keeps you from giving in from giving up. I will try over and over again until I find the answer ARE YOU MY FREAKING DAD?? He is righteous fury, he is honorable indignation, and he is finally learning what rage can do as a just, motivating force, an agent of change, and symbol of resistance

[racefortheironthrone]

On your old WOIAF review, you mentioned that the Brindled Men are close to Robert E. Howard's racist ideas about the relationship between humans and apes. Could you elaborate further? Also, what do you think about the theory that the Brindled Men and the Ibbenese are another species of men, like the Neatherthals and the Australoptecus were to us? Or do you think their depictions in WOIAF should be read as not 100% accurate, since the meisters are talking about things so distant from Westeros that they only heard about?

I want to clarify my current thinking, because I find myself a bit unsure as to what the situation is.

It's always difficult to divine a writer's intent, but I think that's particularly true in this case because of two simultaneously true facts: one, GRRM is fascinated by the idea of what if the non-homo sapiens hominids, like the Neanderthals and the Denisovians, were still around. Two, GRRM is a huge fan of the work of Robert E. Howard and that dude had some weird and unusually racist even for the 1920s beliefs about human beings, great apes, and how evolution and species works. (I'm going to leave aside H.P Lovecraft for the moment, because parsing the similarites and differences between their thinking on this when they spent years corresponding with each other about this and many other topics is pretty hard to do.)

To provide a short version of Howard's beliefs: in part because Howard was a white Texan born very close to the "closing of the American frontier," and in part because of how he personally related to America in the 1920s, Howard had this odd combination of beliefs, in which he saw "barbarism" (which he sort of used as a short-hand for both less-developed times, places, and definitely people, including pretty much all non-white people) as savage, unintelligent, driven entirely by base urges, but also honest and vibrant and energetic; similarly, he viewed "civilization" (which again, he used as a short-hand for certain peoples, places, and times that he considered to be the most similar to contemporary white people) as more enlightened, more refined, more intellectual, but also corrupt and decadent.

In Howard's mind, humanity was constantly in a loop of civilization growing ever more refined and decadent until it collapsed back into barbarism due to its own weakness and corruption, at which point it would be replaced by the rising dynamism of the barbarian who had toppled it, who would found a new civilization, and then so on. (Howard was probably borrowing from someone who had borrowed from Ibn Khaldun.)

What made Howard weird, though, is that he thought this could happen at the level of the species: if humanity became too "degenerate," they would literally go backwards and devolve into non-human apes; and vice-versa, apes could ascend and become human (or at least human-like).

You see this trope all over Howard's writings. Here it is in "Tower of the Elephant":

""We saw men grow from the ape and build the shining cities of Valusia, Kamelia, Commoria, and their sisters. We saw them reel before the thrusts of the heathen Atlanteans and Picts and Lemurians. We saw the oceans rise and engulf Atlantis and Lemuria, and the isles of the Picts, and the shining cities of civilization. We saw the survivors of Pictdom and Atlantis build their stone age empires, and go down to ruin, locked in bloody wars. We saw the Picts sink into abysmal savagery, the Atlanteans into apedom again. We saw new savages drift southward in conquering waves from the arctic circle to build a new civilization, with new kingdoms called Nemedia, and Koth, and Aquilonia and their sisters. We saw your people rise under a new name from the jungles of the apes that had been Atlanteans. We saw the descendants of the Lemurians who had survived the cataclysm, rise again through savagery and ride westward, as Hyrkanians. And we saw this race of devils, survivors of the ancient civilization that was before Atlantis sank, come once more into culture and power—this accursed kingdom of Zamora."

Here it is in "Rogues in the House":

“That is Thak,” answered the priest, caressing his temple. “Some would call him an ape, but he is almost as different from a real ape as he is different from a real man. His people dwell far to the east, in the mountains that fringe the eastern frontiers of Zamora. There are not many of them; but, if they are not exterminated, I believe they will become human beings in perhaps a hundred thousand years. They are in the formative stage; they are neither apes, as their remote ancestors were, nor men, as their remote descendants may be. They dwell in the high crags of well-nigh inaccessible mountains, knowing nothing of fire or the making of shelter or garments, or the use of weapons. Yet they have a language of a sort, consisting mainly of grunts and clicks.

“I took Thak when he was a cub, and he learned what I taught him much more swiftly and thoroughly than any true animal could have done. He was at once bodyguard and servant. But I forgot that being partly a man, he could not be submerged into a mere shadow of myself, like a true animal. Apparently his semi-brain retained impressions of hate, resentment, and some sort of bestial ambition of its own."

And here it is again in "Queen of the Black Coast:"

"Cast in the mold of humanity, they were distinctly not men. They were winged and of heroic proportions; not a branch on the mysterious stalk of evolution that culminated in man, but the ripe blossom on an alien tree, separate and apart from that stalk. Aside from their wings, in physical appearance they resembled man only as man in his highest form resembles the great apes. In spiritual, esthetic and intellectual development they were superior to man as man is superior to the gorilla. But when they reared their colossal city, man’s primal ancestors had not yet risen from the slime of the primordial seas.

...Many died who drank of it; and in those who lived, the drinking wrought change, subtle, gradual and grisly. In adapting themselves to the changing conditions, they had sunk far below their original level. But the lethal waters altered them even more horribly, from generation to more bestial generation. They who had been winged gods became pinioned demons, with all that remained of their ancestors’ vast knowledge distorted and perverted and twisted into ghastly paths. As they had risen higher than mankind might dream, so they sank lower than man’s maddest nightmares reach. They died fast, by cannibalism, and horrible feuds fought out in the murk of the midnight jungle. And at last among the lichen-grown ruins of their city only a single shape lurked, a stunted abhorrent perversion of nature."

And here it is in "Shadows in the Moon":

"Out of the shadows of the cliffs moved a monstrous shambling bulk--an anthropomorphic horror, a grotesque travesty of creation.

In general outline it was not unlike a man. But its face, limned in the bright moonlight, was bestial, with close-set ears, flaring nostrils, and a great flabby-lipped mouth in which gleamed white tusk-like fangs. It was covered with shaggy grayish hair, shot with silver which shone in the moonlight, and its great misshapen paws hung nearly to the earth. Its bulk was tremendous; as it stood on its short bowed legs, its bullet-head rose above that of the man who faced it; the sweep of the hairy breast and giant shoulders was breathtaking; the huge arms were like knotted trees.

The moonlight scene swam, to Olivia's sight. This, then, was the end of the trail--for what human being could withstand the fury of that hairy mountain of thews and ferocity? Yet as she stared in wide-eyed horror at the bronzed figure facing the monster, she sensed a kinship in the antagonists that was almost appalling."

So you can see why I get a little nervus when in WOIAF GRRM invents a new group of people in the far-off land of Sothoryos and describes them in terms like this:

"And the native races grow ever more savage and primitive the farther one travels from the coasts.

The Sothoryi are big-boned creatures, massively muscled, with long arms, sloped foreheads, huge square teeth, heavy jaws, and coarse black hair. Their broad, flat noses suggest snouts, and their thick skins are brindled in patterns of brown and white that seem more hoglike than human. Sothoryi women cannot breed with any save their own males; when mated with men from Essos or Westeros, they bring forth only stillbirths, many hideously malformed.

The Sothoryi that dwell closest to the sea have learned to speak the trade talk. The Ghiscari consider them too slow of wit to make good slaves, but they are fierce fighters. Farther south, the trappings of civilization fall away, and the Brindled Men become ever more savage and barbaric. These Sothoryi worship dark gods with obscene rites. Many are cannibals, and more are ghouls; when they cannot feast upon the flesh of foes and strangers, they eat their own dead."

Are these Neanderthals and/or a non-sapiens hominid species, or is GRRM unwisely indulging in a bit of Howard pastiche in a more problematic way than just dropping the city of K'dath or Carcosa on to the map of furthest Essos? It's hard to say. Some of the details - the description of the bones, the long arms, the foreheads, the jaws, the mention of them not being able to cross-breed - suggest a non-sapiens hominid like the Neandethals. But others - the fact that some of them can learn to talk but further into the interior they become more bestial, the mention of "dark gods with obscene rites," the invocation of cannibalism and corpse-eating - feel like Howard pastiche. And then the eponymous skin seems like all GRRM's invention, but it's hardly flattering.

Either way, I think this is an aspect of the world-building that should have been edited out. I don't really see the benefits being worth the potential downsides.

[cienie-isengardu]

Mandalorians and thrones

I’ve already talked about the funny implication about Darksaber created by New Canon sources. The other hilariously ironic detail comes from the symbolism of the throne.

Duchess Satine has one

as Countess Ursa Wren

and even Princess Bo-Katan

all of those thrones were a symbol of their leadership (political position) and weren't on screen shared with other Mandalorians (of lower status than them).

Then we have Boba Fett’s throne - and mind you, I didn’t watch the Book of Boba Fett beside premiere episode and few scenes here and there, so my knowledge may be wrong in regard to this specific show, but on the teaser in The Mandalorian he did visually sorta “share” it with Fennec Shand.

Then we have Pre Vizsla who in “A Friend in Need” had his special chair (symbolic throne)

that during the talk with Maul was A) not used by Pre to highlight his leadership between Mandalorians and B) other warrior was sitting there like it was nothing 

(or at least I assume it was the same chair due to specific shape)

And I find it ironic and hilarious, as all women have connection to aristocracy judging by their titles alone (duchess, countess and princess) and did not share their thrones on screen with their subordinates as far as I can remember. Meanwhile both Boba and Pre belong to famous Mandalorian families (Fett name itself dates back to at least Mandalorian Wars from ~4.000 years ago while Vizsla clan is said to be one of the oldest clans) but none of them has or use aristocratic titles AND shared their “thrones” with their subordinates. Boba more in the visual/symbolic way which suggests his relationship with Fennec is less formal than of “king” and those beneath him. Pre Vizsla on another hand had no reaction to one of his men sitting on “throne” what implies this is pretty normal occurrence in Death Watch camp?

And even though Pre didn’t visually (or physically) share the acquired Satine’s throne with other Mandalorians, the Death Watch seemed to have a “council meeting” straight after Vizsla gained control of Mandalore. Before Maul challenged Pre, the Mandalorians sit almost in circle (which usually create the feeling of “round table”, a sense of equality between the ”leader” and subordinates)

in similar fashion as New Mandalorian Ruling Council's chairs were seen in the same episode.

There is a chance that Death Watch just used the chairs as they were already here when Pre forced Satine to abdicate. Either way, he did not remove the symbolic objects of “shared” power/equality. Interestingly, the members of the New Mandalorian Council did not have the same arrangement when they debated at current situation on Mandalore in previous season, highlighting the feeling that Satine was the central (dominant) person in the meeting while the chairs in “circle” were seen just before she was arrested by Death Watch.

This may be just the matter of perspective used by creators, but though the chairs were presented like in the picture below

  -- it seems the New Mandalorian Council’s chairs were put then more in the same line before Satine’s throne (the Mandalorians did not face each other but sit more arm to arm if you get what I mean?) than in a circle as Death Watch did?

Another interesting implication coming from those “throne” scenes in regard to Boba and Pre is that the moment we see them on a real trone, they share it on spot (Boba with Fennyc) or at least visually share their power by having the “war council” (chairs arrangement in almost circle) straight after gaining the control (Pre on Mandalore). And yes, Satine too was shown to counsel the situation with other New Mandalorian high-ranked officials, but after passing time. She debuted in season two but TCW showed the Council meeting in season three. In meanwhile her political activity (S02E13) focused on gaining allies for neutrality in war looked like this:

Her, in center, sitting in a special place while the potential allies all standing around in clear power imbalance between Duchess and others. In contrast, when Pre was making an alliance with Maul, he invited the Sith to the table, offered tea and in general created the feeling of some sort of equality instead of talking to him from the throne (the special seat already occupied by some Mandalorian?).

 What in itself adds a nice nuance to Pre character and in general to the repeating patterns of Mandalorian women sitting on thrones as a symbol of their position AND connection to aristocracy while Pre and Boba A) lack such bloodties, B) doesn’t care for such titles and C) visually at least the animated and TV show imply they are either willing to share the power (within their own group) or just doesn’t care for thrones as a symbols (thus are okay if some of their trusted men casually will sit on special seat/ on the backrest.

Thinking more about it, the Armorer share with Pre this trait to talk with people (her subordinates/allies) on more equal ground, like by sitting with Din at the same table when he seeks her wisdom or judgment

Dunno how much of this was intentional on creators’ part and how much it is just a coincidence but I guess that is what happens when you try to make barbarian-like Mandalorians more medieval and put any pressure on aristocratic blood ties. Those who don’t use them or don’t care at all in the source material (like Pre and Boba and the Armorer) will stand out more.

(Not to say that Ursa or Bo-Katan care in any special manner about their titles as both are very skilled warriors and strong leaders. I just find it unusual how source material highlight their connection to aristocracy via titles and thrones while Pre has none and doesn’t care to get one)

[dragonroar87]

Happy Anniversary, Honor Among Thieves!

i only watched D&D HAT recently, but I fell in love immediately. It's such a charming movie, and when I found out that the anniversary was coming up, I wanted to make something for it.

Before you ask, Xenk isn't here because I forgot about him and only remembered when I was halfway done with rendering. Please don't kill me Xenk fans.

anyways i NEED that spinoff series to come out ASAP I am starving for content

[redkoi1]

"well i farking hope so"

[bobauthorman]

No So Different and Not So Similar...but who cares?

[mrsblackruby]

Btw I watched the horror movie barbarian I have a lot to critic about it but I’ll say this I actually think they were going in the right direction with their s*xual assault storyline and it was probably the most impactful thing I took from the film. legit I almost cried it felt like the right balance of humanization for a complete asshole to me. Like we don’t know a lot about his character’s situation and I personally want 2 know more. He still comes off ass a dick and it definitely seems like he abused & took advantage of his victim to me. However he still feels human I like that. I want more of that. I feel like if more people saw themselves in the mistakes abusers make they would try not mimic that abuse but that’s just a theory a game theory—

[tavina-writes]

I would also like to say for the record that all of the sects in MDZS are not implied to be any ethnicity but Han Chinese and to be quite frank it is alarming when people try to say the text says otherwise.

Like, this is mildly related to the ask I just answered, and I know we've all seen the meta discussing how barbarianism and racism is (le gasp!) present in Chinese works. (Which, well, yeah. yeah it is.) BUT critically I think in trying to scrutinize and apply shit to MDZS/CQL where all the characters are very much Han, we're just turning up new ways of being racist towards minority ethnicities here.

Case in point: "the Nie are Mongolian"

I've seen this oft repeated everywhere in both meta and fic and...do we understand this??? is racist??? Like the most common justifications I see point to the fact that the Nie (in the live action)....ride horses...have braids in their hair...come from a butcher heritage...are "brutish" <- there's no canonical evidence of this last point btw.

Do we think this is the entirety of what being Mongolian means? Do we think these points add up to "they're subtextually Mongolian?" Why do we think that?

They're not depicted either 1) with Mongolian names 2) with Mongolian religious traditions 3) with Mongolian clothing or hairstyle trends 4) as being reacted to in text as anything other than Han Chinese by other Han Chinese characters. 5) They are depicted on screen by Han Chinese actors.

Like maybe if someone is subscribing to "The Nie are canonically Mongolian and written in a racist way by MXTX in text/depicted in a racist way by the CQL showwriters" they should. Examine what they think being Mongolian is irl.

Maybe the issue is not how sects are presented in CQL or MDZS but how exhausting it is to wade through this fandom where people will misconstrue shit into things that are somehow, more racist in an attempt to deconstruct racism in a system they do not fully understand.

[deeppink-man]

He was born into an unnamed killer training organization. He was born into a project to train natural killers. They were all named by numbers, and he was number 23 and the last number.

The 23 boys who came together in different ways were all trained to kill, but their final test was to kill each other and survive for two days.

The smallest of them, No. 23 chose to go under furniture and survive. It fitted him perfectly, and he could only do it with his arms out. He was in there for two days. He didn't eat anything, and he couldn't move even if a bug passed by his body.

Only four boys survived the test.

No.6, No.12, No.3, No.23.

The organization called them chosen children, called them 'Team Killer Meta'.

After the organization's collapse, they each became adults.

Killer bee, Barbarian

Riky

Etan Stephen

Jamie Vaughan

Yeah, They are killer mata. They think of each other like brothers. They split up after the collapse of the organization, and when they become adults, they meet again.

[noneorother]

The art director & the Good Omens book cover tier list of doom, part 3

Part 1 l Part 2 l Part 3

I am your resident Art Director/Good Omens enthusiast, and welcome to my completely meta-free book cover tier list. Listen, making a book cover is HARD. I should know. But while we salute these artists for their hard work and time, I think we can all admit that once in a while, the vision is just not on. And on very rare occasions, publishers seemed to have managed to commission the cover art directly from hell... here's where we left off last time:

21. Labas zīmes, Latvian cover

Our boys are back! And they are so ready to join the Dead Boy Detective agency. I would say that Latvians don't wear much tartan, so Argyle might seem like a similar print, but it just seems so... not Good Omens. Much like Crowley's flying purple people eater tail and Aziraphale's Conan the Barbarian sword, we're straying into niche AU fan fiction territory here. I mean, it's not *wrong*, but it certainly ain't right, either.

Tier: Does the Job

22. Bons Augùrios, Portuguese

Let me start by saying this cover is so close to being in the blessed category. The layout and spacing are divine, the imagery is simple and whimsical, it reflects the humour inside the gravitas to give you an idea of the *feeling* of reading Good Omens. So few of these covers have gotten this aspect of good design right. Honestly, I would slow clap if it wasn't for that random FLAME JIZZ stuck to the bottom right hand corner of the book. Who's idea was that? Dagon's?

Tier: Great

23. Semne Bune, Romanian cover

I admire two things about this cover: 1) Their utter commitment to a clean 3-colour palette and comprehensible layout. 2) Symbolic demon giving a principality head joke RIGHT ON THE FRONT COVER. This designer had balls. cotillion-sized balls. Now, does Aziraphale's sword have a sentient rooster tassel that watches said head-giving in horror? I sure hope not, but I don't see how that could be allegorical so, I'm torn. I feel like this goes in two categories for completely different reasons. And seeing as I'm in charge around here...

Tier: Great & Not so Good (Omens)

23. Semne Bune, Romanian cover cont.

Compared to the last cover's gigantic double-entendre, this feels so tame and logical. The text is centred and balanced. There's breathing room, and we have wing symbolism! I've never seen a cover try to split Terry and Neil's names like that, which is a fun twist but BY GOD that center line is not straight near the right end of the feathers and it is sending this cover straight down to Does the Job. It's grounded there forever.

Tier: Does the Job

25. HYVIÄ ENTEITÄ, Finnish cover

In this list, having something actually *relevant* to the main plot of the book and not mangling and main characters really puts you in rarefied air. All the motorcycles are book accurate which means somebody read something! Would I have ever picked the empty parking lot of Famine's restaurant as a subject worth a cover? Absolutely not. But the sick 80s lightning tips it into "fine" territory. The text is yellow. It's pretty.

Tier: Does the Job

26. Head ended, Estonian cover.

My face after staring at this cover for ten minutes and finally realizing that this is Hastur and Ligur waiting around for Crowley to pull up:

The artist's face after watching me do that:

Do I even need to rate this? It's called HEAD ENDED. I don't know how to be funnier than that.

Tier: WTF

27. Dobry Omen, Polish cover

Some good points for trying to be original with the layout of the title by drawing a custom pitchfork "Y", but the heinous kerning and the fact the whole text block is not even centred kind of makes me take all the points back. I feel like we're pretty heavy on the demonic, extremely light on the angelic in this take. Maybe it's because on his death bed the lead guitarist of White Snake will finally admit to having designed this cover in his spare time.

Tier: Not so Good (Omens)

28. Good Omens, Hungarian cover

If I told you this designer did not read the book, and instead just watched the trailer of The Omen (the movie) and vibed this heinous brown carpet swatch into existence, you would one hundred percent believe me. I can't even talk about the faux belle-époque font right now. I am irrationally angry.

Tier: WTF

29. Good Omens, Bulgarian cover

WHO. IS. DADDY. WIZARD?? Is all I can think when I look at this cover. Aziraphale & Grommet are recognizable enough, and you could make the case for telescope monkey being Adam, but I need to find this cover designer and shake them until they tell me who this deranged Gargamel is supposed to be. I must know.

Tier: Bad

30. BELAS MALDIÇÕES, Portuguese cover

After all we've been through on this list so far, this truly sucks. It's not even weird. It's just puce text layered atop text to create a great yawn of a cover. Shout out to the designer of the Diablo PC game font, I hope you got paid.

Tier: Bad

Part 3 roundup:

[racefortheironthrone]

Have you read Kurt Busiek's run on Conan? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

Ok, had to double-check because there have been a lot of Conan comics and I couldn't remember which was the Dark Horse adaptations and which was the Marvel, and so forth.

I did read it, back in the day, and I generally liked it. Adapting Conan stories into a medium that cares more about serial continuity is never easy - generations of pastiche writers have wrecked themselves in efforts to make Conan's life make sense from a chronological perspective - but Busiek does a good job of finding ways to stitch the stories together.

I'll also say that I liked his OCs: the post-Hyborian prince and his treacherous vizier, Janissa and the Bone Woman, Kalanthes the High Priest of Ibis, Nestor the Gunderman, the psychic street urchin girl whose name I can't find. They're mostly really solid additions who feel like they could have appeared in the Howard stories if they had been longer-form.

[wolfjackle-creates]

Bring Me Home: Chapter 2 Part 2

It's Wednesday! Time for another WIP Wednesday. No Ghost!Robin today. I've been focusing more on this fic. I think I'm going to try and start alternating weeks, but there's no set schedule or plan and it's liable to change at a moment's notice.

Fic Summary: Tim and Danny are both neglected by parents who care more about their work than their families. They deal with this by spending too much time online and find each other playing MMORPGs. They keep up their friendship as Tim becomes Robin and Danny becomes Phantom and don't bother keeping secrets from each other.

First, Previous

1.3k words

----------

Cassie hissed, “What the fuck, Tim!”

“I know!” whispered Tim back. “Danny mentioned home security, but I had no idea it was like that!”

Bart shook his head. “Want help with that kidnapping scheme? I’ll join you on your road to villainy.”

“That’s the problem with Tim,” agreed Conner. “He makes the road to evil look like it’s really the best option. Count me in, too.”

Cassie groaned. “Damn it, you guys are right. I’m in.”

Before Tim could do more than flip them off, Danny was back. “The pop express has returned!”

Cassie was closest to the door and Danny passed over her drink first. Only to freeze as their fingers brushed.

“Oh,” said Danny who looked at their hands then up at Cassie and back to their hands. “Huh.”

“What’s wrong?” asked Cassie and Tim started to get a bad feeling.

Which was only worsened by Danny looking at him with a grin forming on his face. “Sooooo, Tim—”

“No!” Tim shook a finger at him. “You’d better not tell me what I think you’re about to tell me! You’re OP enough! No more!”

Danny raised an eyebrow. “You done?”

Tim sighed and decided to just collapse backwards onto Danny’s bed. He stared at the ceiling and waved a hand in the air. “Yeah. Go ahead.”

Danny, apparently, loved making him suffer and continued passing out the drinks without telling him what he discovered. Then the mattress dipped next to him and Danny was above him with a grin that wouldn’t melt butter.

“So, Tii-iim,” Danny sing-songed.

“Daaan-ny,” replied Tim in the same tone.

“Apparently I can sense metas. And aliens. Which is so cool. They feel so different to humans! I knew about my ghost sense, but didn’t realize that applied to other species.”

Tim just sighed and closed his eyes. “Of course you can.”

“Conner!” The mattress shifted again as Danny moved. “You feel like warm sunshine and it’s so cool. Bart, you feel like static. Which… little awkward for me, but it’ll be good. I should try and get over my fear of electricity. Cassie, you also feel like static, but in a totally different way. Can’t explain it any better than that.”

“Why is static a problem?” asked Bart.

At the same time, Tim said, “I’ll add it to the list. And the descriptions.” He cracked one eye open to look at Danny. “Will you promise to stop developing more powers for me?”

Danny laughed and nudged his knee. “No promises.”

Cassie looked between them. “Does this mean you know?” she asked Danny.

“Wonder Girl, right? And Superboy and Impulse?”

Cassie nodded. “And Tim told us about you.”

“My lips are sealed,” Danny promised.

Tim rolled his eyes and pushed himself up. “Just gimme my water and fix my phone.”

“Wow, Tim,” said Cassie. “Rude much?”

“No. Look, you’ve no idea how ridiculously OP Danny is. Almost every week he calls me saying he discovered something else he can do.”

“If you think that was rude,” added Danny with a laugh, “you should’ve seen the things he said to me when I got him killed in Elf Night.”

“Ugh,” Tim feigned annoyance. “Don’t remind me. Honestly, what were you thinking? You were a rogue! Why did you attack the boss head on like a barbarian? We lost weeks of game progress! Weeks, Danny!”

Danny just laughed and threw the water bottle at his face. Tim caught it easily.

“Just give me your phone, Slim-Slam.”

“Slim-Slam?” asked Conner.

“He tried to object to Tim-Tam. I made him regret it.”

Tim shook his head. “This was a mistake. Why the hell did I ever think it’d be a good idea to let you guys meet.” To hopefully get them to change the subject, he shoved his phone in Danny’s direction. “What do you need to do to this anyway?”

“We just need to make it compatible with ectoplasm. There’s enough ambient ecto in Amity that waiting a few weeks allows it to happen naturally, but that’s not an option for you guys. Tuck and I went through, like, fifty devices figuring out the exact quantities and locations to add ectoplasm to force the process without destroying the device. It took us ages, but we figured it out. Now Tuck and I get extra money from the tech geeks in town who don’t want to wait the month or so it usually takes for new devices to start working.”

“Speaking of Tucker, will I be able to meet him? And Sam? You’re meeting my friends, I want to meet yours.”

Danny shrugged. “Sure. I’ll text them to meet us at Nasty Burger in forty minutes.” He sat at his desk and set down Tim’s phone to do so. Then, he opened a drawer and pulled out a set of micropipettes and disposable tips in a variety of sizes along with an empty glass beaker. Then came out an electronics tool kit. Tim had a similar one, though Danny’s looked like it had been obtained piecemeal as nothing matched. Finally, he opened a different drawer and pulled out a vial of a glowing green liquid.

Tim pushed himself off the bed and moved to stand over Danny’s shoulder. His friends joined him.

Bart asked, “So what will you be doing? What’s that green stuff?”

“It’s ectoplasm. The stuff ghosts and their dimension are made of. Ectoplasm is… complicated. This is unshaped ectoplasm, also called pure ectoplasm. A ghost or sentient creature can impose their will on it and make it function in a specific way. Since I’ve died, I have an easier time shaping it than most humans. I’ll send ‘tech’ vibes at it to get it to fuse to the phone more easily and apply carefully determined quantities to the different parts of the phone.”

“‘Tech vibes.’” Tim couldn’t hold back the groan. “It’s like magic. I hate it.”

Cassie bumped her shoulder against his. “You get that from Bruce.”

“Damn right, I do.”

Tim watched as Danny popped out the sim card. “First thing I’ll do is add a hundred microliters to the sim card. Then I’ll take the screen off and get to work on the innards. Do you guys want new batteries, by the way? Tuck’s got a bunch of ecto-batteries. Could have him bring them along when we meet up. You’d never have to charge your phone again.”

“Hell yeah!” said Conner. “Sign me right up.”

Tim shook his head, but couldn’t hold back the smile. “What do you mean by never have to charge it again?”

“I mean an ecto-battery will power the phone longer than the computer in the phone will last. I’ve switched over all my electronics. Nothing in this house is hooked up to the electricity grid anymore. I haven’t used a wall plug in four months. Not since Tucker and I fixed the batteries my parents designed.”

Tim didn’t like the sound of that. “Two questions. First, if the battery outlasts the phone, how should we dispose of it. And two, more importantly, ‘fixed’? What the hell does that mean?”

Danny had finished with the sim card and discarded the pipette tip in the beaker. Then he set about removing the screen from the phone. “Just bring the phones back to me when you’re done with them. I’ll upgrade your new ones, too. And their designs were liable to explode, overload the device, or bring it to life so it attacked. But Tuck and I took care of all that. Now devices only attack if Technus manages to get through the portal.”

Tim could sense Conner trying to look at him, but he resolutely refused to look away from Danny’s hands. He was removing the cameras and adding more ectoplasm to them, though much less than the sim card needed.

Unable to get Tim’s attention, Conner asked, “Who’s Technus?”

Danny shrugged. “One of my rogues. Tuck thinks he’s the ghost of Nikolai Tesla. He’s interested in controlling all technology and will make himself a giant mechasuit cannibalized from any electronic he can find in, like, a half mile radius. Super annoying.”

---------

Next

So I've decided which episode of the show this will take place during! It's mid season 1, so Jazz knows about Danny but Danny doesn't know she knows. I don't think that contradicts anything I've written (need to reread it), but if it does, no it doesn't. I dunno if most of you know what micropipettes look like, but if there's any interest I can take pics at work tomorrow and post them so you can see what I mean when I talk about the tips and stuff. I meant to do that today and then I didn't.

Tag List

@gremlin-bot, @bonebrokebuddy, @britcision, @lady-time-lord-, @welcometosasakiworld, @akikkobara, @phoenixdemonqueen, @dolfay, @skulld3mort-1fan, @we-ezer, @markus209, @sjrose1216, @onyxlightdragon, @dragonsrequiem, @jesus-camp-the-sequel, @spidey29phangirl, @kyrianclawraith, @evilminji, @introvert-even-on-the-internet, @emergentpanda-blog, @lexdamo, @v-inari, @idontgetpaidenoughforthisshit, @longlivethefallen, @undead-essence, @xye-chan, @liandrin, @seraphinedemort, @kisatamao, @schalensitzbucket, @caelestisdreamer, @runfromthemedic, @nutcase8691, @channajen, @tonicmii, @ambiguouslyominous, @vythika96, @addie-lover-of-stories, @ironicvixen, @violetfox2, @pickleking8, @mysticalcomputerdetective, @ark12, @mygood-bitch99, @squirrel-wolf

Getting close to the point where I'll have to split the tag list in two! (I'll still add anyone who is interested.)

[rollforfelicity]

Why Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves Didn't Use D&D Combat Rules (And Why They Were Right Not To)

The D&D movie was really fun, and since at this point most of my friends play D&D (or at the very least other TTRPGs), almost everyone I talk to on a regular basis has also seen it and liked it. The consensus is that even though there's no "meta" that the characters are controlled by players sitting around a table, or jokes about the DM, the movie feels like D&D. The jokes feel like jokes people would make while playing. The constant pivoting from Plan A to Plan B to Plan C feels familiar to anyone who has spent an hour at a table deciding what to do, only to have a roll go sideways and screw things up. Before I get too far, I should say this post contains some mild spoilers for Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves.

What didn't feel like D&D were the fight scenes. In one scene, a Paladin quickly dispatches a group of enemies before any of the rest of the party even acts, showcasing that even though he's kind of a square, he's an incredible fighter. In another scene, the Barbarian grabs and wears a helmet in the middle of a fight, using it creatively to get the upper hand. During a fight against a gargoyle, the Bard blinds an enemy by throwing a blanket over their head, but gets pulled along with them when a loose rope wraps around his leg. These are all pretty big moments in the movie, and Rules as Written, would never happen at a D&D table, because D&D combat doesn't work like that.

Here's what I think is interesting. The vast majority of the rules of D&D revolve around combat. It's not all of the rules, but most class abilities, spells, items, and rules have a combat focus. So why does a movie that functions partially as advertisement for the game spend so little effort to replicate the bulk of the content of the base game?

In my opinion, it's because, Rules As Written (or RAW), combat in D&D is not, generally speaking, narratively satisfying. Let's look at a few reasons why.

D&D is a game where, RAW, things either happen, or they don't. If someone misses an attack, nothing happens. If someone misses a skill check, nothing happens. DMs can work with this, but in the base game, there isn't a lot of guidance for what to do when a player fails at something they're trying to do. This may seem trivial, but compare that to something like Powered By The Apocalypse, which is much more narratively focused. In those games, a full miss means the Game Master changes things up. The enemy gets the upper hand. A new danger surfaces. An NPC is put into peril. Not only does the player fail at what they're trying to do, but something else, bad for the Player Character (PC) but good for the story, happens. On a mixed success, the PC might get what they're after, but at a cost, or with a complication they weren't expecting.

This calls to mind the example of the Bard throwing a tarp over the gargoyle in the final fight of the D&D movie. That's a classic example of a mixed success. He succeeds at temporarily blinding the creature, but in the process, he gets caught up in the gargoyle's rope and is dragged along for a ride. This is a dynamic thing to happen in combat, but wouldn't happen in actual D&D. Instead, a PC would either succeed at what they're doing, and blind the creature, or fail and not blind them. You could argue that the Bard's action was the result of a Natural 1, but that also doesn't fit RAW, because the Bard does succeed as what he's trying to do, and with a Natural 1, he would have failed and been pulled along.

D&D doesn't really reward player creativity. Something like throwing a tarp over a creature wouldn't be likely to happen in a session at all, because in the actual game, it would take a full action to do that, and depending on the Difficulty Challenge (DC) the DM sets, there's a good chance of a wasted turn. Creative actions end up a huge gamble, and when you're playing a game where it could be 20+ minutes before you get to take another turn (more like an hour if you're playing with a Wizard, amirite), you're disincentivized from "wasting" your turn to do something less than optimal. You can describe what you're doing to add to the narrative, whether you succeed or fail, but that brings me to my next point.

I haven't been able to stop thinking about this question from Rise Up Comus since I read it a month ago. In D&D, a player can describe all kinds of flavor to what they're doing, and there's no change to the mechanics of the game. You could read this as saying "Oh, well that means you have the freedom to do what you want!" but if you look at game design through the lens of "what kind of play does this game encourage or discourage" the takeaway I have is that description just...doesn't matter to D&D. In my experience, that can lead to a few different unsatisfactory outcomes.

Both players and DM treat combat as purely rolling, and describing only what is required. A DM announces, "The enemy wizard casts fireball, roll dexterity save, take 25 damage. Turn passes to the Rogue." Sometimes players who describe what they're doing are seen as showboating or taking up too much time. Worst case scenario, the DM penalizes descriptive players.

Some players like describing what they do, others don't. This has no mechanical effect on the game. Players who aren't descriptive might be frustrated that an already slow process is slowed down even more. Descriptive players may become frustrated because there's no mechanical benefit to what they're describing, and spend time fruitlessly arguing with the DM that focusing on a weak point of the enemy should give them advantage. I think most tables fall into this category. It's not a bad game by any means, but not everyone is there for the same reason when it comes to combat.

Rule of Cool Table! Everyone describes whatever they want, the dice rolls don't really matter! Combat is generally pretty easy because fuck the rules, if it's cool for the dragon to die based on how the fighter described the attack, even if it's only the first round of combat, hell yeah let's do it! For players who like being more strategic and enjoy the confines of the rule structure because it makes things challenging, these tables can be frustrating. (If you're familiar with Dungeons & Daddies, this is essentially how they play D&D).

Because there's no guideline in the rules, people come to the table with different expectations. Some people want combat to feel like a strategy game, where following the rules in the most optimal way (or combining rules elements in an unexpected way) is mechanically rewarding (usually measured by damage output). Some people want to describe themselves doing cool stuff! Some people don't care about their characters looking cool, but want the story to be compelling. If everyone isn't on the same page, this can lead to players ending combat feeling unfulfilled, and when combat is the bulk of a rules set, it feels strange to me that there's no guidance for DMs or players as to how to incentivize the kind of combat your table is interested in.

This leads to a situation where combat in D&D is the part of D&D that takes the longest, that the majority of spells and abilities are focused on, but it is, narratively, the least satisfying part of the game, unless the table alters the base rules significantly.

If you're not familiar with other TTRPGs, you might be thinking "Okay, but that's why the DM is allowed to do whatever they want and make up new rules! My DM gives inspiration when we describe something cool, that solves this problem!" My critique isn't necessarily of individual tables. DMs and players come up with all kinds of mechanics that aren't in the rules. My critique is that D&D is a role-playing game that essentially has no incentives, and many disincentives, for role-playing during combat. For example, RAW, characters don't really have time to communicate during their turns, as each round takes about 6 seconds. There's no time for banter or negotiation between PCs and enemies. You can see this disconnect by the way people talk about D&D. How many times have you heard people say "I love D&D but I don't like combat?" How could this rift be rectified? Let's take a look at some other TTRPGs.

In 7th Sea, if you take the time to describe how your character is doing something, you get a bonus to your dice pool. In Thirsty Sword Lesbians, when you get a mixed success on a Fight roll, you and your opponent are given narrative prompts to build tension (like flirt with or provoke your opponent). In Kids on Bikes, you can fail or succeed rolls by different number ranks, which determines how significant the successes or failures are. In Wanderhome, you get a token when you "take a moment to bask in the grandeur of the world, and describe it to the table." In Good Society, each player gets a "monologue token" which they can spend to prompt another player to deliver their Main Character's internal monologue. I just played a bad-action-movie-themed game called Action 12 Cinema, where players can boost a roll if they call out the song that would be playing during this scene of the movie, and get an even FURTHER boost if anyone at the table sings it.

Each of those game mechanics gives you an instant understanding into the mood of the game, and the kind of stories its built for you to tell. Even if you've never heard of any of those games, I bet, based on the title and the move, that you could hazard a guess as to what playing the game is like. Dungeons & Dragons certainly has rules that add to the lore of the game, and prompt you to create characters that act a certain way. But when it comes to combat, players and DMs are left to their own devices. Some may see that as a strength of the game, but I see it as a source for a lot of disappointing play experiences.

And it seems as though, at the very least, the writers of Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves thought the combat rules were narratively unsatisfying enough that they eschewed using any of them.

[a-roguish-gambit]

What if the x men played DND

This is what I think their characters would be

Beast: is the forever dm

Cyclops: the most lawful good high elf paladin to ever lawful good high elf paladin

Jean grey: starts with a standard lawful good high elf wizard but min maxes into an entirely different character about three times until she is once again at lawful good elf wizard. But now it's a different flavor of elf!

Morph: chaotic neutral plasmoid fighter

Wolverine: just homebrews himself into the game, with a custom barbarian subclass of "escaped living weapon". No one realizes what he did until he mentions that his hidden wrist blades come in sets of three and by that point they are three sessions in.

Jubilee: neutral good half elf druid/sorcerer, with a dramatic heroic backstory, stunning good looks, and she knows everyone just like in her fairy tale ep

Gambit: a purple lawful evil to chaotic good tiefling rogue/warlock who's patron makes him steal treasures as offerings in exchange for blessings of luck and powers to charm others

Rogue: girl found out you can seduce in the game and is playing a chaotic good damphir bard so she can seduce as many as she wants in the game she and gambit tag team to seduce all the monsters.

Nightcrawler: everyone thought he would play a lawful good tiefling paladin but instead he's playing a chaotic neutral tabaxi cleric/monk that is also a pirate

Storm: started out playing a min-maxxed to hell Asimarr druid but got tired of it quickly and is now playing Snarf, the chaotic neutral kobold ranger/wizard and is having a blast. Especially with fireball.

Xavier is not allowed to play because he keeps cheating by reading beast's mind to meta game and magneto was kicked out for being a problem player and kinda murder hoboing a village of humans that were harassing a goblin.

[becausesure]

Fantasy High is a really strange world because the "rules of DND" apply and class levels exist including multiclassing which is really strange in a meta game way

One of the easiest and most powerful multiclasses is Wizard fighter (18-2) and in Elmville I don't know if that would be accepted if the wizard wasn't a Blade singer

Or a Barbarian Hexblade that uses Charisma instead of strength but is mainly a barbarian (19-2, 18-2)

We have only seen Gorgug have a nontraditional multiclassing but there are tons of cool but nontraditional multiclassing or triple+ multiclassing

Like a Paladin Sorcerer Barbarian Warlock (6-9-4-1) which sounds insane but it works fine (and it does work at lower levels it is just a regular Paladin Warlock then add barbarian and finish with sorcerer)

So if you are making a FHsona and are really into the mechanics of DND consider how the staff might think of it and how that would interact with your character