#burnt lion secondary

[wisteria-lodge]

snake primary (bird model?) + unBurning lion secondary

+ bonus mini-sortings of Wednesday Addams and Indiana Jones

Hi! I really enjoy reading about the SHC system, and decided to write a structured SortMe submission (at last). My Secondary is what I’m struggling a lot with. As a kid, I was very bossy towards friends, and could not stand not being the leader of my group and leading the games we play. I loved making up games based on this video game/book series/tv show to play with them, and there was A LOT of improvisation (following my whims).

Well, little you sounds like a pretty classic Lion secondary.

My group broke apart later due to me being too domineering. Later, I moved to a country where I couldn’t speak the language properly and became quite withdrawn, shifting into an introvert completely (still am). Regarding friends, I went along with whatever they wanted to do, almost all of the time. I had one really good friend though, but I maltreated her kindness by reverting to my domineering self around her.

Huh. Well, it sounds like your secondary burned. "Domineering" is an extremely negative way to talk abuot a Lion secondary, and well... I can't help but think there was a little bit more to this friend-group break up, especially since you were the "bossy" leader the whole time. You're talking, basically, about your Lion secondary not "working" anymore (not being able to speak the language would contribute to this) and that's a burned secondary. So you get quiet, you get passive, because doing more than that feels risky.

In high school, I was the furthest thing from leadership, and shifted from group to group, never liking any groups or the idea of groups. Those who aren’t close to me would say that I’m shy (I would disagree - I’m just not good at communicating with people I don’t know well, or multiple people at a time). A close few (mentor included) would say that I’m opinionated.

There have definitely been some Loyalist (snake) primary vibes so far. Your really good friend, your mentor, wanting to join groups but that not really working as a long term thing for you.

I really enjoy talking about what I think and what I believe with my mentor, as well as abstract ideas and philosophy, but rarely with my friends because I don’t enjoy arguing about it with them. I stopped caring about social media and maintaining social connections, unlike most of my peers, because the connections felt too temporary, and yielded little rewards for the time I spent. I do enjoy spending time with friends, but there are friendship issues popping up all the time (fickleness and selfishness- I’m seeing the selfishness in people clearer now).

I could see this a couple of ways. Like this could be a slightly hedonistic Burnt Snake. You want those Snake connections (and not the more Badger-style ones, which don't feel like enough to you.) But, they seem hard to come by, so you've been editing. You've got someone who is on your wavelength, and you're getting more philosophical and internal.

Of course, this could also mean that you're a Bird in the process of building a (less social) system. And who could be more important in that process like a philosophically minded mentor?

I now spend my spare time (non-studying) reading fiction, playing video games (immersing in a different world), delving into systems such as MBTI, SHC to learn more about people, and reading game guides (stat optimisation, etc. REALLY ENJOYABLE).

So we're having fun with systems, which generally means some Bird somewhere.

Now I am literally the opposite of the description of Inspirational secondaries - especially Lions. Regarding problem solving, I find it hard to think of situations (searched google for ‘examples of problem solving’). I feel like the problems that I’m involved in are almost always solved by others, and I can’t offer anything valuable.

This is extremely burnt secondary talk - I *can't* solve problems. I promise, if you play video games, you solve problems.

Once I broke a certain rule (for about the third time) and was going to have something taken away the next morning. So during the night I thought about what I knew about that person (doing the deed) and tried putting myself in their shoes, and what I could say and what responses it could yield. The preparation made me feel better but I barely used any of it the next day — I reacted to what the person said and ?adapted? and lied (with a heart rate of 200 or so) and was successful in preventing them.

So... you did the Lion thing, and it worked for you. It sounds like when your secondary burnt you did build a Bird secondary model (stat optimization guides - very bird primary.) The Bird is a toy, a support system, and it can make you feel less anxious.

I think when I’m really desperate and have no time to prepare for a serious problem (to me), I resort to lying. However, I don’t lie often and would even be actively honest in everyday life to improve my “reputation”

It is a Lion secondary thing to not like lying, and do it as little as possible so as to build up a reputation for not lying (or to want to do that, anyway)

and prevent anyone from pointing out my lies and judging me.

Hmmm. Who's judging you? Who's thinking you're a bad person? Where is this coming from?

Whenever I’m stressed or under pressure, I become really unresponsive and appear emotionless. In conflicts with others, my mind often goes blank and I just let them speak,

This is just a human thing. Fight/flight/freeze/fawn - you freeze.

because I can’t say anything clever enough that won’t be shut down.

Again with some external force coming down on you. This might be part of the reason your secondary burned.

I really, really envy and admire Snakes who shift based on the situation and are able to create masks (I’m just like a rock).

It sounds like you're a Lion secondary who doesn't really like the idea of being a Lion secondary.

I also envy Lion Secondaries but feel annoyed by them - like how can they be so honest and straightforward?

It is really, REALLY normal to be burned and find un-Burned annoying, naive, impractical.

If I experience conflict with my parents, I almost never argue (because I can’t beat their ”logic” - which is: “you’re my child, you can’t argue with our authority”).

Got it. You've got some authoritarian parents who shut you down. Sorry to hear that. No wonder you're struggling with some of this stuff.

I recently watched Netflix’s Wednesday, and I really admire the protagonist’s quick thinking and speedy comebacks. I felt that she didn’t need to be so straightforward and blunt, but it was… so cool. She had no problem TALKING BACK TO PEOPLE. Ideal me would have razor sharp wits backed by an abundance of knowledge (rapidfire Bird or Snake) (but alas).

Wednesday Addams is a very loud Lion secondary. I suspect she's a unBurning Snake Lion - which is a sorting you might want to consider for yourself. She is extremely protective of the handful of people she considers Hers - her character introduction where she drops the piranhas into the pool because the swim team was bullying Pugsley could not be more Snake Lion. But she has trouble finding people who *get* her (to the degree where she's started to think that those people don't exist) - and that's burnt Snake. We also see her Lion secondary coming through in her problems with her mother - Morticia adores her life, and she's sending Wednesday down the same path she took, which Wednesday resents. She values the Lion secondary authenticity too much. She wants to be *herself* and make her *own* calls, even if that means she fails.

I was reading about neutral states, and I wouldn’t say I have different personas for different people and situations. Generally, the less close I am to a person the more polite and quiet I’ll be.

the "dimmer switch" Lion secondary metaphor

However, I notice that if I’m spending a decent amount of time with someone one on one (almost never happens in a group), then I’ll revert back to my neutral state (unconsciously). There are some boundaries, though (e.g I can never sing or dance in front of any of my friends, but I do it all the time at home).

Hmm. So when you trust someone... the lion comes out? That's good.

When studying, I want to make sure I cover all of the points (objectives) that will be tested. I never study/revise for something that isn’t going to be tested (too extra), and I rarely study without outside pressure (upcoming DEADLINES) for something that I’m not interested in, even if it would benefit me in the long term. I like having a frame to work with, and going on from there by myself. I quite often create plans (timetable, study timeline, exercise…) but almost never fulfil them due to laziness and lack of motivation. The more detailed it is, the more I hate it.

You have a Bird model... which you think you're supposed to have... and which you kind of hate using for this stuff. And you're definitely using adrenaline to hack your brain into doing non-preferred tasks

The only time I remember completing a planned goal was the Nanowrimo 50k novel in a month challenge - where I stopped halfway but picked it back up and got to 50k words before the month ended. I like having that “you can write whatever you want but as long as you reach a word count, and even if you miss a couple of days it’s fine”.

This is good information. You like your frameworks to be loose, you like room to pivot - write one bit today, another bit tomorrow, you're not feeling it the third day, and that's fine.

I have never made a really difficult decision, but generally speaking I would weigh the pros and cons of each choice and kind of imagine what would happen if I picked that. HOWEVER, from experience life never goes the way I try to predict, and doing that is kind of useless :’)

Spoken like an improvisational secondary. And honestly, in a philosophical way I agree with you... but my Badger still wants to make those plans anyway.

I would also ask the people around me for their thoughts on the matter to build more perspectives and cover my blind spots.

Very smart, just for problem solving in general. Probably means you're not a Lion primary though... who kinda like to make important decisions without the static of other perspectives.

Regarding fantasies (my favourite part of this submission), I like to imagine myself as a mage who studies in a grand academy filled with intricacies and travels to investigate ancient ruins and magical places with close friends/intellectual equals. I would work on discovering the arcane mysteries of the universe, weave poetry and art about bygones (heavily LOTR inspired). The close friend is pretty prominent in my fantasies (snake vibes?) but also is a search for adventure and meaning. Real-life based fantasies are generally snake secondaries and other-world based fantasies generally bird.

Your fantasy is to be Indiana Jones (but also a wizard, and an artist.) That's a pretty Lion secondary fantasy. And I know you didn't specifically name-check Indy, but I suspect he's a Snake Lion as well. I will admit that he does look like a Bird primary a lot, but that's because his People are generally safe/offscreen. When he DOES have to choose between them and the arcane secrets of the universe - he chooses his people. UNLIKE his villains. Lot of Bird primary villains in that franchise.

I love playing RPG games A LOT (Zelda, Dragon Age, Genshin). I’m more into the exploring aspect than saving the world, but I become attached to individual characters along the journey.

... like Indy :D

I’m not a big fan of warrior types of characters in fiction, such as She-ra (Badger Lion) uniting a rebellion to fight evil — I instead relate to Entrapta (Double Bird) who doesn’t really care about the conventional good vs evil and would go along with joining the Horde if that benefitted her cause. But I don’t have her impressive collection of knowledge on what she’s passionate about (tech). To a lesser degree, I also relate with Catra (Double Snake?), who cares about individuals much more than groups and doesn’t understand She-Ra/Adora’s goal of fighting for the good and for the people. But I definitely don’t have her flexibility and smarts in problematic situations.

I would definitely check out the SHC Podcast She-Ra sorting... especially because they make a very good case that Catra is only modeling a Snake secondary, and underneath she's a burned Lion secondary.

I feel powerful in a situation when I’m thoroughly prepared…?

Do you really though? You talk about being super prepared as being annoying and stressful "kind of useless" and something you "barely use."

But that almost never happens and is quite temporary because don’t like thoroughly preparing for a situation, and anything unexpected can throw me off completely. Like this chess game I played (I’m horrible at chess - quick thinking and meticulous planning - enjoy it though and wish I was good), where I planned this sequence of moves to make to win, but the opponent kept making unexpected moves and I would become fixated on my sequence and, well, lose.

It sounds like you think that you should have Bird secondary... and so have a Bird secondary model that doesn't seem to help you much.

I’ve taken the SHC quiz several times and have gotten both Lion and Bird Primary (Lion more often, but I’m quite convinced of being a Bird).

Bird is still very possible - you haven't talked about your primary much - but I would definitely consider Snake. From what I've read here... I've been getting Snake.

I’ve tested as every Secondary (burnt?) because I found the questions hard to answer.

Yeah, definitely Burnt. But there's a Lion secondary under there, and you're in the process of unBurning, especially around certain people.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my overly long submission (filled with brackets). It took me a couple of days to think and write and cut out sections, and I kind of have a vague idea of my sorting and how you’ll sort me — looking forward to reading your analysis though. Sorry about the unnecessary details in advance. Have a nice day (or evening)!

You're very welcome, and you did a great job writing this.

[misku-nimfa]

How would a Lion primary/burned lion secondary manifest? I read descriptions and I think this fits best for me, it wasn’t sure what the combination would look like rather than just the individual attributes. Hope you’re having an awesome day! (@badbadbucky)

@badbadbucky

I'm sorry, but there really isn't a good description that I can give you.

Externally, just about everyone is going to see the Burned Secondary and nothing else. Depending on how Burned your Secondary is they might get glimpses of what's underneath the char, but without the ability to reliably act your Primary will be indecipherable from the outside.

My personal internal experience, it felt like hitting an invisible wall over and over. Knowing what I need to do, how I need to do it, why I need to do it, and then getting nothing done. How much of that can be generalized and how much is specific to my own experience is up in the air.

[collegetennisoriginstory]

Rayyan to me is a Double Lion. They have a Lion Primary- they listen to their intuition, have a clear sense of right and wrong and their Cause is becoming a professional tennis player. They’re the type of Lion Primary who is adamant about their Cause and as a fellow Lion Primary that’s kind of sexy of them to me. They’re also a Lion Secondary-they are themself and hate to lie, they charge and take things head on.

Tobin on the other hand screams Badger Primary- they care about the community of Cargill and it’s also shown through how they handle Felix. Badger Primaries have a fascinating thing known as “dehumanising” they simply do not view that person as a person anymore (usually when a Badger’s close one hurts them they deal with that by cutting them off, while a Snake Primary wouldn’t struggle with that unless they’re part of their inner circle. Think of it like cutting off a limb and cauterising it to stop the bleeding.) Tobin cares about everyone not just their close ones and that’s shown through their actions. They are a Snake Secondary- adaptive and fluid, improvising when they need to. Their playing style was described as “fluid” and that solidified it for me. 

G seems to be an immature Snake Primary- hedonistic, live in the moment, still trying to find their people, while also being burnt- somehow they are hurt and have burned as a result (they take of themself first and foremost) they however are a Bird Secondary- drawing upon prior knowledge and using their tools in situations.

Sam is a Snake Primary whose Important Person is MC and that melts my heart. They care about MC & Robin and their family. They take to Cargill- not because they’re community but because they’re MC’speople- and have a Badger Secondary of hard work and drawing upon the community for help. Amusingly enough Snake Badger’s are known as the Love Interest sorting which explains why so many people love them.

I hope you liked my theories and sorry for rambling haha😅

OK I don't know if you guys know but I LOVE personality theory in all shapes and forms, so literally when I got this ask I showed it to my gf and she immediately snorted and said I met my soulmate. So, thank you for that.

Long post below.

For folks who are wondering what the hell we're on about, here's a link to the sortinghatchats Tumblr page. Just so we get things out of the way: I absolutely detest J.K. Rowling and her TERF bullshit. Don't Stan for that, and that explains the use of lion/badger/snake/bird.

Anyway, agreed with Rayyan being lion primary—I was struggling with figuring out whether or not they seemed more snake primary or lion primary (because I also do see them protecting their crew to the ends of the earth e.g. their family, their cat, MC if they eventually make their way there...) but I do think that it ultimately makes more sense that they're people who wouldn't sacrifice their ideals/what they think is right.

As for Rayyan being lion secondary, that part is irrefutable. Like what you said:

they charge and take things head on

I think your Tobin typing is spot on, so I won't go into too much there except this:

Tobin cares about everyone not just their close ones and that’s shown through their actions.

and

adaptive and fluid, improvising when they need to. Their playing style was described as “fluid”

are absolutely right. I think Badger-snake combinations really explain Tobin's ability to mov through life with the ease and looseness/ quiet confidence and warmth/kindheartedness that Tobin embodies.

For G, I actually read them more as bird primary than bird secondary, mostly because I think ultimately, G's more concerned with coming up with a framework/system through which they understand the world / life / make decisions, but they're constantly adjusting / adding to that system or framework. Contradictions make them want to tinker and probe, and they're most at ease when things make sense.

I could see bird primary with either snake secondary for G (they wear many different skins) or bird secondary.

For Sam, I think you hit the nail on the head with

Sam is a Snake Primary whose Important Person is MC

and

Badger Secondary of hard work and drawing upon the community for help.

Absolutely adorable. I think that combination might be so popular for love-interests because it's probably the most endearing ride-or-die bestie combination to exist.

[space-blue]

Selective breeding of viperhounds by the Txepiva clans

The Txepiva clans, also known in some parts as the Ash People, have no ikran and no pa'li. They are long distance runners and hunters, often on the move. Many of them are nomadic pastoralists, a practice unknown among the rest of the known Na'vi. 

Their habitat, in turn bleak and burnt or rich and green, rarely forms anything close to a forest. The clans are always on the move, frequently fighting over territory, and yet regularly meeting with others in great gatherings. The largest, meant to reunite all the disparate Txepiva clans, is called the Tsawlultxa, and is the perfect opportunity to discover and study the stunning variety of Nìsayntang.

Just like mankind adopted wolves and turned them into dogs, the Txepiva adopted the plains' viperwolves. Millenia of selective breeding created the Nìsayntang, which the RDA catalogues as viperhounds.

Most neighbouring clans outside the Txepiva look down on breeding, preferring to go in the wild to capture their own mounts. We're left to understand it verges on taboo. As usual, the Txepiva seem to hardly care or take notice of their neighbours' distaste.

The relative isolation of each clan has allowed for the development of several subtypes of Nìsayntang. 

Some clans have hounds whose forward arms have evolved to grab prey, while in others it's the secondary pair, with the elongated fingers of the hand coming back to fold over the rib cage in a position reminiscent of the stunbat's secondary arms. 

Another clan breeds specifically for hunting in low light visibility. 

Here are some examples of breeds of Nìsayntang!

The most standard breed type, seen all across the plateaus and plains. They reach up to a Na'vi's knees or higher, much like a greyhound for humans. They're excellent runners and hunt as a pack, keenly aware of the Na'vi hunters movements. They can carry and manipulate objects with the prehensile limbs that have retracted against their chests. It's most commonly the middle pair of limbs, but as we'll soon see, some clans have bred hounds whose frontal limbs are the ones that evolved to hold and grab.

Nìsayntang are intelligent creatures, keen to help, and capable of understanding complex orders, especially through tsaheylu. This agile breed, quick on its feet, is favoured by the clans that raise srä‘etnaw (the livestock at the source of aforementioned pastoralism).

They'll assist their Na'vi with crafts, carrying things across the camp, leading scouting missions and reporting what they see, or for the best trained one, even hold the meat before it gets grilled! They also use their hands to grab stray srä‘etnaw pups and bring them back into the fold.

The facial appendages of Nìsayntang are flexible sensory organs. They help them sense their environment, but also play a major role in how they communicate between pack members. Think of the way wolves communicate with their ears, back on Earth. 

This variation is quite rare, and bred by a single tribe that favours night-time hunting and lives along black volcanic cliffs and lava fields. It's one of the darkest environments known in Pandora, especially during eclipse.

Their Nìsayntang have greater control of their natural bioluminescence, granting them better camouflage. Like a cuttlefish fooling its prey, they can modulate and increase the bioluminosity, creating alluring displays. The sensory strangeness causes their prey to freeze, equally curious and confused, and now vulnerable to ambush. 

The stem-nisayntang were quite the genetically diverse and chaotic bunch, and the Na'vi of the Ash clans have been practising selective breeding on them for far longer than humans have with dogs. 

This is an example of the aforementioned breeds in which it's the foremost limbs that have developed to extend and grab. It's the largest of the breeds presented in this study, as large to a Na'vi as a lion to humans, and aptly nicknamed "Leonin Hound" by first contact researchers. Their huge, heavy arms make them ambush predators, preferring bursts of speed and action to their cousins' long distance running. Their hands aren't as nimble or crafty, each fingers closer to sharp, robust talons.

They have serrated teeth that tear through muscle and cartilage with unsettling ease. Their bite can even cut through most of the natural keratinous armour of Pandoran animals. 

Their bodies are covered in bristles that help them sense vibrations in the air and ground. Those keen senses and efficient ambush tactics have gained them a reputation as “All-knowing guard hounds” among travellers who’ve met their keepers.

Despite the fearsome appearance and size, their pack mentality, as well as their ability to bond with their entire clan, make them desirable playmates for children, and it's not rare to see a couple of Txepiva youngsters tasked to guard toddlers and younger children, doing so with the help of their hounds. It's also quite common for them to ride on their back. Despite what a human might think of such a sight, it's as safe and natural to the Txepiva as riding an ilu as a child is for the Metkayina. 

Bred to fend off the fearsome wildlife of the plains, the Leonin hounds are fiercely efficient at it and seem to have had their sense of fear bred right out of them. As such, they're one of the most widespread breeds in the plains. A handful of clans produce pups, and some are then traded at the great yearly Txepiva gathering. A clan might have their own specialised breed that has been living alongside them for untold generations, and still keep a couple of the Leonin hounds to help safeguard their camps.

Part I of @straydaddy (art and design) and @bluedaddysgirl (lore concept) in-world collaborative study, "Introduction to the Txepiva clans, their nomadic pastoralism and niche selective breeding practices in species of stingbats and viperwolves". On twitter we are Knarme and Bluedaddysgirl

[air-in-words]

Anastasia: SortingHatChats

Hey, guys, I back now.

Anastasia time.

So, as a DISCLAIMER: THIS FILM IS A WORK OF FICTION. I highly recommend looking into the actual history behind the film if you're interested!

Here we go!

(I seem to recall there being a sorting already posted of Anastasia, but I remember disagreeing with most of it? Absolutely no offense meant to whoever originally posted it! These are just my two cents!)

ANASTASIA/ANYA

BADGER PRIMARY

Anya's entire storyline revolves around the ideas of "family," "home," and "belonging." Not just her own, personal family (which would be Snake,) not necessarily the home she remembers being born into (as far as she knows, she's an orphan,) and not only her own state of belonging. She deals in the concept of these things as though they were basic necessities: everyone should want them, and she wants them because everyone needs them in order to be whole. This is truth to her, full stop.

Anya: "Do you think you're gonna miss it?"

Dimitri: "Miss what, your talking?

Anya: "No! Russia."

Dimitri: "Nope."

Anya: "But it was your home!"

Dimitri: It was a place I once lived. End of story."

Anya: "Well, then you must plan on making Paris your true home."

Dimitri: "What is it with you and homes?!"

Anya: "Well, for one thing, it's something that every normal person wants!"

This is not a belief system, nor is it a conclusion she's come to. It's something that is such a part of her make up as a human being, that to imagine that another person doesn't care about the concept of a "true home" or "true community" is downright disturbing to her. Her desire for "home, love, family" is not her trying to seek out individuals she already knows, but to find the space she came from, filled with strangers she's never met, but who she believes will accept her through the power of community. It reads very animated Hercules, often dreaming of a far off place where a voice keeps saying, THIS is where I'm meant to be. Badger Primaries love the idea of having a secret family they've never met that will swoop in and carry them away, loving them unconditionally, when the world immediately around them has been so cruel. Lonely Badger Primaries are the perfect characters to fall in love with the idea of being long lost royalty. The main character arc Anya goes through is learning that family is not just the people who gave birth to you: Found family is not only just as powerful, but can become even moreso over time. This is the same moral the animated Hercules learns! Belonging and community is created and watered like a garden: If you keep searching for your perfect, idealized community, you might miss the one forming right before your eyes.

LION SECONDARY

It doesn't take long to pin Anya as a rather loud Lion Secondary. She is unafraid to voice her opinions, and often does so in a blunt and unashamed way. SShe absolutely DESPISES lying, and she is the first to take the easiest, most straight forward way out.

Dimitri: (trying to detach a traincar after breaking multiple tools) "COME ON, there's gotta be something in there better than this!!"

Anya: (wordlessly hands Dimitri a stick of lit dynamite)

Dimitri: "That'll work!"

What this movie actual shows is an interesting, not as often explored aspect of the Badger Lion, which is how the brash and straightforward nature of the Lion Secondary can work against the desires of the Badger Primary. Anya longs for nothing more than home and community, but often inadvertently (and not so inadvertently) alienates those around her with her cutting phrasing. It takes a more grounded, good listener like Vlad to see past Anya's brashness almost immediately, understanding the intentions behind her bravado.

Vlad: "I see an engaging and fiery young woman, who on a number of occasions has shown a regal command equal to any royal in the world!"

DIMITRI

SNAKE PRIMARY (Initially Burnt)

Dimitri's storyline is a bit deeper than many people might initially realize. What we're looking at is a Snake Primary who, at a very young age, tried to save one of their People (the Princess Anastasia, for whom he is implied to have either a childhood friendship with or just a faraway crush,) and failed, horribly. In fact, they failed to the point that they believe they are at least partially to blame for the death of that Person. That's about as deep and dark of a hole as a Snake Primary can fall into, so the Snake Primary will, naturally, Burn and find new, non-Person things to fill that void. Namely, recognition and fortune.

Dimitri: "Imagine the reward her dear old grandmama will pay!"

Of course,this could point to Glory Hound Lion, just as easily. If not for his Snake Primary sneaking in at every possible moment. The line following that one above is:

Dimitri: "Who else could pull it off but you and me?"

The "you" in question being Vlad, the only other Person Dimitri has allowed in (and by "allowed in," I always assumed got so tired of Vlad actively FORCING HIMSELF into Dimitri's life that he acquiesced and decided to just let him stay.) But, Dimitri's obsession with the Princess Anastasia continues, against all odds. His latest con? Directly Princess Anastasia related. Is it enough for the woman they hire to play her be "good enough?" NO. She has to be PERFECT. They hold AUDITIONS, and Dimitri is the perfect person to be on the board, because Dimitri still knows her intimately well, even after all these years. Such as hum recognizing Anastasia's face in Anya's right from the start. Thus, comes Dimitri's initial inner turmoil in regards to Anya: Are his feelings just projection? Is he attracted to her JUST because she looks like Anastasia? Is he ACTUALLY that obsessed? All those questions become moot when Anya is revealed to truly be Anastasia, though Dimitri finds himself where he was as a boy. From this point on in the movie, pretty much every motivation/choice Dimitri makes revolves around the fact that Anya IS Anastasia, and that he is going to give her what she wants and deserves, no matter what it takes. Even if that means keeping himself away from her romantically. His character arc revolves around forgiving himself for what he perceived as a dire mistake against one of his People, which is a ROUGH arc for a Snake to go through.

Dimitri: "Paris holds the key to her past. Yes, Princess, I've found you at last! No more pretend. You'll be gone, that's the end..."

SNAKE SECONDARY

Dimitri is actually quite a good con, all things considered. He manages to trick Anya into thinking they have train tickets when they DEFINITELY do not, and he keeps the reward under wraps for the entirety of their trip. Not just that, but dodging around obstacles instead of facing them head on is his most natural state. As a child, he is seen sneaking out of the kitchens (where be belongs) and automatically offering the servants' quarters as a means of escape, which is extremely clever and resourceful. Dimitri tries to charm and placate Anya at every turn, trying to keep her naturally explosive personality under wraps.

Anya: "The baggage car...? There wouldn't be anything wrong with our papers now, would there, maestro..?"

Dimitri: "Of course not, Your Grace! It's just that I hate to see you forced to mingle with all those commoners..."

But, we spend most of the film seeing Dimitri forced out of his comfort zone by both the situation and Anya's combative Lion Secondary, so he's often seen conspiratorially complaining to Vlad while in his Neutral State or just outright losing his temper and yelling. But, this never comes first, and his plans and plots are always somewhat circumventing. During the train derailment, his plans are to jump off, disconnect the train cars, and just wait until the train coasts to a stop. All pretty passive/out of the box thinking. When he IS shown trying to face someone head on, he is always unsuccessful: Trying to fight for Anastasia during the siege only to be immediately knocked out, trying to take on Rasputin directly and being tossed aside pretty easily. Comparatively, Anya/Anastasia is shown to be successful when she is upfront and combative: Getting away from Rasputin as a child by kicking him in the face, ultimately defeating Rasputin by straight up smashing his reliquary.

VLAD

LION PRIMARY

Vlad is a pretty classic Paragon Lion Primary. He wants to do what is Good and Right and doesn't what is Bad and Wrong. For what reason would he wind up as a con artist as a Paragon Lion, though? Even for Paragon Lions, what is Good and Right to THEM can go against what the collective believes is good and right.

Vlad: "That's what I hate about this government. Everything is in red!"

Yes, the above line is also meant to be a coded message for Dimitri, but Vlad thinks the government has overstepped his moral boundaries and has chosen to step outside the usual bounds to follow his own morals. Part of those morals involve guiding those he believes are lost, thus, his "adoption" of Dimitri, a very lost young man with little direction. He tries to act as Dimitri's "moral compass" until Dimitri finds his own direction again. He does the same for Anya when she comes into their group, trying to lead her towards the possibility of finding her home, while gently guiding her away from focusing on her "past."

Vlad: "There is nothing left for you back there, my dear. Everything is in Paris."

He stands up for what he believes in, and inserts himself constantly when he believes Dimitri is wrong. Letting him know when he's "walking away too soon" or when he "has to talk to her" even if she's a Princess and Dimitri's a Kitchen Boy.

BADGER SECONDARY

Vlad is one of the kindest, most lovingly genuine characters I've encountered in fiction, and I mean with that with all my heart. He is consistently gentle and understanding with the people he comes across, and is always even-tempered and fair. Compare Vlad and Dimitri's reactions to finding Anya skulking around their home:

Dimitri: (shouting, from across the room) "HEY! What are you doing in here?! HEY! STOP!"

Vlad: (coming in at a light jog, holding up his hand politely) "Excuse me, child!"

Vlad always assumes the best from whomever he's interacting with, and is excellent at getting to the root of what's bothering a person. He actively tries to make everyone in his company comfortable, and will often make soft jokes or observations in an attempt to lighten the mood. His Lion Primary makes him unable to entirely give in when he knows what's going on is wrong, but his Badger Secondary gives him the skills to broach those uncomfortable topics with grace and eloquence.

Vlad: (gives Dimitri the most fatherly, loving hug in all of animation) "Ahhh, my boy... you are making a mistake."

TL;DR

Anya/Anastasia: Badger Lion

Dimitri: Double Snake

Vlad: Lion Badger

And, there we go! Anastasia was one of my absolute FAVORITE movies as a child, so I've really enjoyed getting an opportunity to sort them! Let me know your thoughts! :)

[liltalle]

Sorting Hat Chats - Nimona

@sevilemar got me to watch the wonderful new movie Nimona. I'm very excited about it, and I thought I'd try my hand at sorting the main characters, since I haven't seen that done yet. Here are the basic of the system I'm using.

Spoilers below the cut:

This is a very Snake Primary movie overall, so I'm going to start with our most obvious Snake Primaries and work from there.

The titular Nimona is a Snake primary. In her flashback, we see her seeking connection with all the different animals, but it only works when she finds Gloreth. And then Gloreth is her PERSON, they're in love, it's adorable, and then, the most heartbreaking thing that's ever happened to her, Gloreth betrays her. And thus her Snake primary burns. She doesn't connect with anyone else (we might assume) for the next thousand years, and tho she's self-confident and self-sufficient, she admits that the hatred from others makes it hard for her to value herself. Then she hears about Ballister, and she gets very excited, because here's, finally, a potential kindred spirit. She takes Ballister to be the classic burnt Snake/Bird villain archetype, wanting to take revenge on the world that rejected him, and is disappointed when that's not quite him (I'll elaborate when I get to sorting Ballister). Nimona herself is angry with the Kingdom and its rejection of her, but she seems to keep her anger to graffiti and fantasies of revolution, but Ballister, if her new person wants to overthrow the government, she's all on board and will help him however she can. Even when he's not what she expected and doesn't fully accept her yet, sticking with him and helping him is so much better than being alone, and she'll stand by him until he completely rejects and fears her.

Nimona's obstacle to the acceptance she craves is wrapped up in her secondary: She's a Lion. I read once that a shapeshifter Lion secondary would have a distinguishing trait that would be constant through all their forms, and that's obviously Nimona. Her animal forms are consistent over a thousand years, her impression of Ballister has a red streak in his hair and acts like her, and when she properly acts (a bit of a Bird model), as the Demon Baby and Ambrosius, she loses patience and lets herself through pretty quickly, terrifying the Squire and making Ambrosius' death a bit over the top. And her consistent difference from everyone around her is her struggle, she can look similar to all the animals but not so similar that they accept her. Gloreth, miraculously, accepts her human form and her shapeshifting abilities as well... until she doesn't. So she's careful, opening up to Ballister again. She's Nimona, she's defiantly herself, and not defined by any group, but she's reluctant to explain. She does enjoy lying to Ballister, but only as a momentary joke. (And maybe jabbing at his gullibility is related to her burnt tendency to trust people at face value?) She gradually reveals herself, until she's unmasked as Gloreth's monster, and Ballister leaves her.

And now she's broken, she burns entirely, I think, primary and secondary. She takes a form without any of her usual red, and she's not playing a role, she's become the monster they all think she is. And she loses her weakened sense of self-preservation entirely. She is only drawn to the statue of the woman she loved and who betrayed her.

Until Ballister stops her. "I'm sorry. I see you, Nimona. And you're not alone." Ballister knows all her secrets and still sees her true self, her Person finally accepts all of her authenticity... and she returns to herself and falls into his arms.

In light of all this, I was at first confused by her final sacrifice, but then I noticed, first she looks at the screaming crowds, and looks upset, but only after she looks back at Ballister, and sees his horror, does her face turn to resolve. She's always empathized with the people of the Kingdom, especially children (as they feel like her, similarity is a good way for Snakes to connect), but I don't think she's ever really taken them as her problem. But when Ballister fully accepts her, she fully accepts him, which includes, as Snakes tend to, adopting his values. She takes his duty to defend the people as her own. He's a hero, and she's his sidekick.

(Damn, I want to cry again.)

Ambrosius Goldenloin's Snake primary is very clear from his imagined monologue to the Director, so I'll quote it at length here: "I've lost my mind. I've lost everything. The man I love, my best friend." He just says his everything is his Person. Followed by a note of jealousy: "Although now he's got a new best friend. What's that about?" His distrust of Ballister, here and elsewhere, is distinctly framed as "What else is he hiding? Who is the real him?" because if he never knew Ballister, then their connection wasn't real, and his loyalty to him isn't owed. But he isn't sure he's wrong about Bal, and so he keeps trying to make sense of his confusion, and find out if he should still be loyal to him. And he's built Ballister into his sense of self so much that he then asks: "Who am I? A direct descendant of Gloreth? I never asked for that." This man's not a Lion primary, he doesn't find his destiny or heritage meaningful in defining himself. And finally: "Now everyone expects me to arrest Ballister. And if I don't, I'm a traitor to you. And if I do, I'm a traitor to him!" He frames his choice as a binary one between two personal loyalties: to the Director, and to Ballister. They are his People, deciding between them is the only thing that matters. Gloreth, the Institute, the ideals he was taught, they don't even register for him. And Ambrosius deciding which of the two to trust is much of his arc.

His secondary is less explicit, but I think the clearest moment of him problem-solving is trying to catch Ballister on the subway. Todd, a stereotypical Lion secondary, sees an obvious clue and immediately wants to move. But Ambrosius waits, and watches. And his first clue is "He hates freestyle jazz." His skill in this investigation, as he argued before, is that he knows Ballister the best, so he'll have the best chance of catching him. He's invested in Ballister, so he has power around him. And once Ambrosius has thoroughly watched the full clip (and asked a tech where the train is going), only then does he decide where to go. The thoroughness and humility here, coupled with his intro scene giving Ballister such care and support, make me think Ambrosius is a Badger secondary. A Lover archetype for our hero/villain's boyfriend, but a variation who's very conflicted with a whole lot of agency. I love it. (And his sorting matches mine.)

Ballister Boldheart/Blackheart is a wonderful Bird primary, with an arc of transforming his belief system over the course of the movie, who models Snake for the two important Snake primaries in his life.

He starts out with a dream, "I'm here to slay monsters and protect our kingdom." But it's never about his specialness, I think he just absorbed the cultural narrative, and so just did what seemed like the obvious right thing. (Flashbacks to my Bird primary model) By the time he graduates the Institute, they've "brainwashed [him] good", as Nimona says. The Institutional Badgery values of protecting the Kingdom from monsters has become entirely his. And the public's doubt in him gets to him, he has trouble not absorbing their input.

And when it all falls apart, he's immediately concerned with the Truth. He's innocent, this isn't right, he just needs to give the right people the right information and it'll all be fine. He's not the burnt Snake primary villain Nimona expects, his values are still pretty intact despite everyone turning on him. It takes time for them to break down. The plot challenges him one piece at a time. When he sees the video, he edits his system enough to say that "the Institute's not the problem, the Director is." He gradually accepts more and more of Nimona. When Ambrosius rejects him, he decides it's ok to embrace the villain role a bit and have fun.

He definitively turns on Nimona not because of his loyalty to her or to Ambrosius, but because of a piece of paper (so Bird pri) and a deep part of his system: "Gloreth's monster is the embodiment of evil and what the Kingdom needs protection from." Only when he sees Nimona again, understands her, and lets go of this belief can he fully accept her. His early system, "I'm here to slay monsters and protect our kingdom" is half transformed. He's no longer here to slay monsters, he's still here to protect the Kingdom - but by accepting the Monster.

I think he's also a Bird secondary. He builds his own arm in a derelict tower. He makes an innocence wall to connect the dots. He likes making plans and he's initially uncomfortable with Nimona's improvisation when things inevitably go south. There's a particular way he's supposed to do this, honestly, quietly, carefully. But then, when Ambrosius rejects him, he takes up a bit of an Actor mask of the villain role, and he and Nimona start to sync and have fun together. He trusts his training and he's better at swordplay than any of the other knights, because, as Ambrosius said, he worked harder than any of them. And he learns to plan with Nimona, using her shapeshifting as a tool to get the confession from the Director. And him leaving his sword behind, "I don't fight for her anymore", the tools he uses are an important part of his identity.

The Director is definitely an Idealist. Her values are Badgery, about protecting the community from the outgroup, but her final decision to turn the cannon on the city shows that this ideal is inflexible when it comes to protecting actual people. Since we don't see her change, it's hard to tell which Idealist primary she is, but I think she's a Lion. She tells Ambrosius!Nimona that she had a dream as a child, and simply states that Ballister's knighthood would be the first crack in the wall. She has a monologue, but it's not an explanation. And when everyone around her turns on her, she doesn't update, she doesn't change like Ballister does, her convictions are internal and she carries them to the terrible end. And I think she's a Bird secondary. Lasers are her distinctive tools, to kill the Queen, to knock down Ambrosius, and to (try to) kill Nimona. She plots and lies, easily but carefully, on her own, no improvisation and no support from others. Her monologue is just her dropping her mask and speaking her Liony conviction.

Todd (Thoddeus) Sureblade strikes me as a pretty stereotypical Double Lion. He's impulsive, ready to rush off to catch Ballister at the first clue of where he went. He's a Glory Hound, competing with Ambrosius to lead the knights. And he never questions that he's in the right and better than those around him, until the very end. We only see his sad expression, but reading into that, I think the way the final battle ended shook him, and he's done some emotional soul-searching.

And while my sortings for the antagonist characters are more tentative, I enjoy the concept that this story, that's so much about inverting classical tropes, would invert the character archetypes such that Snake and Bird primaries are the heroes and Lion primaries (with Badgery and Glory Hound values) are the villains.

(These are the 5 characters I think we know enough about to sort decently. The Queen, the Squire, and Gloreth don't get much screen time.)

To sum up:

Nimona - Snake/Lion (Bird sec model)

Ambrosius - Snake/Badger

Ballister - Double Bird (Snake pri model)

The Director - Lion/Bird

Todd (Thoddeus) Sureblade - Double Lion

(If anyone else has sorted these characters, or has disagreements, I'd love to hear about it. I'm trying to get better at this.)

[reading-sometimes]

PAW Patrol SHC Sorting

The vast majority of TV shows for children glorify Badger primaries, and PAW Patrol is no exception. I mean, there were going to episodes at the start of the series where Ryder rescued all of the pups one at a time. Instead, they were already a team from the start because of a Canadian TV requirement for shows for preschoolers to have prosocial themes (like literally rescuing puppies wasn't prosocial enough, lol). So, there are going to be a lot of Badgers (especially Double Badgers). There are very few models because they're pretty simple characters who are mentally stable and act the same way in every situation. A basic explanation of the SHC system by @wisteria-lodge is here. Let's get the obvious ones out of the way first.

Ryder : Badger Bird

Ryder fits in with the stereotypical "STEM genius who also wants to help people" type of Badger Bird commonly found in characters like Tadashi from Big Hero 6. He's a Universal Badger who even saved the main villain of the series. He likes building gadgets, which is basically correspondent to a Bird secondary in this show.

Rocky : Badger Bird

He's essentially the same as Ryder, and they both build stuff. The only real difference between Ryder and Rocky is that Rocky also cares about the environment (Ryder probably does too, but with Rocky it's more explicit).

Everest : Double Badger

She's the definition of a Double Badger. She's so lonely that she latches onto the literal first person she sees (Jake) and even tried to rescue penguins before she joined the PAW Patrol. She says specifically that she "practiced rescuing penguins", which means that the penguins probably didn't need her help, but she did it anyway. It's a miracle that she never became a Burned Badger, despite being on her own for so long. As for her secondary, she tends to rely on the Courier Badger subtype way more than the Bookkeeper Badger subtype, which will become a recurring theme.

Marshall : Double Badger

He's also an obvious Double Badger. When he thinks that the rest of the PAW Patrol doesn't like him, he literally packs up and leaves (which is more commonly a Snake primary kicking themselves out of their inner circle, but Marshall couldn't rank anyone to save his life). He leaves because he thinks that he's "can't do anything right" because he keeps messing up when he tries to help people. This hints at the possibility of a Burnt Badger, at least for that episode. He also relies really heavily on the Courier Badger subtype.

Skye : Badger Lion

She's a Universal Badger (I mean, all of them are, lol), because she likes animals. I mostly based the Lion secondary off of her competitiveness in earlier seasons, her general penchant for risk-taking, and that scene of her skydiving from the movie. She was free-falling without a parachute, and she was just whooping and having fun.

Zuma : Double Lion

He's the definition of a Chill Lion primary, and he's also probably also a Paragon Lion. Zuma's secondary was actually hard for me to figure out, since he's a surfer dude who's pretty calm most of the time. I considered that he could be a Lion Badger who was literally just vibing all the time and going with the flow with their Courier Badger, before I realized that writing about so many Badger secondaries were warping my brain and that he wasn't a Badger secondary. I thought about a Lion Snake, but he's the most stable pup alive. Even in emergencies, he's just chilling out. He doesn't get fazed by anything.

He's probably the most chill Double Lion imaginable, since he also had a competitive streak in the earlier seasons, but that was really only in the first few episodes. He also has a penchant for risk-taking, though, which points to an improvisational secondary.

Chase : Double Badger

He was actually the hardest to sort for me. I considered a Snake Primary, since in the unlikely scenario where the PAW Patrol disbanded, he'd probably follow Ryder. He'd feel guilty about it, though, which points to a Badger primary.

I considered a Bird primary who has a very Badger-looking system to match Ryder, which would probably make his Bird primary Exploded too. In season one, he was scared of ghosts until Ryder told him that they weren't real, and then in season two he acted like he'd never believed that ghosts existed (which is in character for him, lol). Chase has the very specific malleability of a Bird Primary who's modelling an Exploded Badger. He'll make himself into whatever the group needs him to be, which is the definition of an Exploded Badger, but I think it's different with Bird primaries specifically because it requires a loss of agency, something that Bird primaries live by. Chase actively doesn't want agency, though. Even when he's ordering the other pups around, he's doing it in the context of rules and responsibilities, things that are outside of himself rather than internal. Bird primaries look for morality outside of themselves, even saying that they'd like a book to follow throughout their lives, which definitely fits Chase. Bird primaries also desire freedom and the ability to choose what their morality system is while exploring different options, which he doesn't want.

Chase's Badger primary is probably exploded, since he feels the need to work even when he's sick and he does things that he doesn't really want to do, like leading the PAW Patrol. Granted, this could just be the pressure of the situation, since he's generally fine with delegating responsibilities to the rest of the PAW Patrol, but that's more Ryder taking advantage of his Authoritarian Badger than anything. As for his secondary, he relies heavily on the Bookkeeper Badger subtype. He learns best by following step-by-step instructions one step at a time.

Sweetie : Snake Bird

She's a Snake Bird who acts like an Immature Lion Bird most of the time. She cares about her owner and that's literally it. She's a villain, so she's allowed to act selfish and arrogant. She's a Glory Hound Lion because she wants to be the queen. She's a Bird secondary because she presumably made Bugsby, the little green robot that follows her around, and because she likes having plans.

[iorekbyrinson]

Sorting Better Call Saul: part 2

I promised this post...like, a year ago, so I'm posting these three I've got some kinda idea about now as a peace offering. Not the full cartel yet, but watch this space!

Mike Ehrmantraut - Lion Badger, Burnt primary, Bird model

Ok, to start with Mike. Mike has the traits of all four houses - the hard work and honesty of a Hufflepuff, the loyalty of a Slytherin, the intelligence of a Ravenclaw, and even the fierceness of a Gryffindor when roused. Let's start with Hufflepuff, which is the first - Mike has a Puff streak a mile wide, valuing honesty, hard work, and fairness to an insane degree.

You could argue that this could be the iron clad code of a Ravenclaw, but I think that's a myth. Mike has put on the icy and unfeeling armour around his Puffness to match the "code" of the gangland warfare he finds himself in, but it's got too much of a warm Puff heart to be truly Ravenclaw. Scratch it and you find the gruff older mentor who takes Jesse under his wing, the one whose arguments of "in or out the game" are essentially ways of stopping himself feeling for those who he is forced to kill, and despite all that is the character most likely to stand in harms way to protect another who he can't bear to see harmed - Nacho, then Nachos father, then Jesse, even Werner.

In both series, this devotion specifically revolves around his love for his granddaughter. It's all for Kaylee, for him to find a foothold in his granddaughter's life, and provide for her future. In simple terms, this seems like a Slytherin way of categorising his world - caring, in a structured form, with blood prioritized first - or is it? The Slytherin loyalty rears it's head, but I actually think Mike is working off the terms of paying a debt - that he "broke his boy" by morally corrupting him, making him take a taste of the corruption he'd dipped his hand in for pragmatic reasons for decades, which led to his death. Now that's a vessel you can never really fill again.

This cool headed-ness and Mike's legendary problem solving skills could indicate Ravenclaw, but I'm disinclined to consider it for either primary or secondary. Mike simply doesn't work along the same terms as Gus or Chuck. He's a deeply felt man that's found a way to operate in the world using higher means of practical tools and skills. But Mike TOILS. He doesn't form master plans or collect people to suit specific purposes, and out of the whole cast he's the most likely not to socially engineer a situation (well, aside from a bit of acting now and then), turning his nose up at Gustavo's double life and scripts. Every single plan he has works on the basis that he can deconstruct it down to its bare essentials (see: the infamous car scene). He's patient, like stone under deep earth. You try and move against him and he is utterly firm. In this way, I'm going to anoint him a beautiful Puff secondary with 0 interest in mirroring or people pleasing.

So what's his Primary? Well firstly, Mikes primary is deeply charred. It's the tragedy of his character - a man so capable, so intelligent and functioning in the world, yet his heart is utterly dried up. There's no gas left in that particular tank, by both circumstance and design - if Mike allowed himself to feel, he would annihilate himself in disgust for what he sees as his transgressions (JBanks discusses this). So, a moral, felt Primary. I'm gonna say he's not a double Puff. Mike shows little interest in belonging to groups and in fact thrives as the archetypal lone wolf, like a gunslinger with a broken code. He's dead to himself and yet deeply aroused by things pertaining to his own individual morality - like Hector massacring the Good Samaritan, or Gus paying off Werner's wife. Mike, Burnt or not, operates from a sense of judgement about how the world should be, and deigns his own judgement frequently. One of the tragedies of the show is witnessing this drying up - going from trusting his gut instinct of right and wrong to becoming an accomplice to Gus having given up on his sense of morality entirely. So, Gryff primary, making Mike Ehrmantraut perhaps the most unlikely Lion Badger in the whole compendium.

Lalo Salamanca - *RETYPED (prev Bird Snake) Lion Snake, Burnt Badger secondary model

*see below post for new Primary reasoning

(((Now, Lalo. Definitely NOT an internal primary - I see external primary AND external model for this guy. He strikes me as a Bird Snake actually, and the reason I don't build his sorting the way I did with Mike is because Lalo is best taken from the outside in - it forms a more complete picture of him (because there's nothing going on inside).

First, getting rid of that typical Slytherin primary. To do this, we need to look at where his main trait, commitment to his family, comes from. For Snake primaries, this loyalty is innate and instinctive. However, when we see Lalo acting out of instinct, it is almost certainly for survival - or *fun*. This guy is going around setting a charge to situations that majorly eff things up for HIM AND HIS FAMILY because he gets bored. He never shuts up, constantly on one tangent or another. Now, that's not to say Snakes can't be chatty (especially Snake secondaries), but Lalo's constant stream of consciousness seems to have a function. It is a pure externalisation of his interior monologue, a way of understanding and implementing his ideas and actions. Snakes need to reserve a portion of themselves for themselves in order to survive. Lalo, arguably, shares too much, flying well in the face of a TRUE loyalist manipulator (which is also why Gustavo gets so pissed with him, because...he's a real, true blue almighty Snake and he CANNOT understand or even tolerate the faux Loyalty the Salamanca family wears like a badge of honour. After all, he "understands blood for blood").

Secondly, he's got that Bird Snake vibe of being a manipulator that is just weird enough to get everybody's hackles up whilst staying (almost) one move ahead of everybody else. Also, when you leave him alone (and let his walls come down a bit), he starts theorising - random theories about Gustavo, and when he's by the fireplace with Nacho, little nuggets of not being able to sleep at night. It's a funny scene, one a lot of the fandom interpreted in a VERY Snake way as a sign some kind of loyalty was being exchanged/revealed, but in honesty it's kind of both trite and sad. Lalo trusted Nacho enough to reveal one of the twisty sides to his character, the intellectual grain in a personality entirely constructed to fit the macho conventions of the cartel.)))

Lalo has a very, very dark Badger model, which he uses as an in to his messed-up family, and also to smooth cartel relations (which, ironically, causes an oil/water reaction amongst folks, because Lalo isn't precious about his Badger model and his real self tends to bleed through - Lalo simultaneously gives the impression he's including you AND excluding those he doesn't like, in one smooth swoop. It's very unsettling for ACTUAL regular Badger Juan Bolsa, who far prefers Gustavo's very specific brand of Snake packaged in servile Double Badger. It's easier for him to understand.) It's a social convention that greases the wheels in the cartel families/businesses, which are hierarchical, you're-with-us-or-against-us places. Gus also does this, but he does it a lot less graciously than Lalo, because he hates everyone and gets nothing from it. Lalo enjoys the way it relates him to others - such as with his staff, or his family, or Eladio -, and he coaches Nacho in these methods later in order to get him into Eladio's good graces.

This is just speculation, but I have an instinct it was also a way of packaging the brutal dehumanisation and pack-loyalty the Salamanca family in particular seem to enjoy. Hector has compelled his whole family into a cult of following the family credo (family is everything) as a means of centralising his power and bolstering his hair-trigger ego. The younger Salamanca generation are all lessons in how individuals respond to that kind of pressure - Tuco, perhaps the most like his uncle (Hector would love to think Lalo takes most after him, but that's untrue) goes all in on his own Lion secondary, the twins become shallow facsimiles of Badger secondaries with their own Sortings buried perhaps so far they will never be found (and always be within reach of their best securities, each other) and Lalo, perhaps the cleverest of all the Salamanca progeny, learns to model or even perform a Badger primary in order to SEEM like he's fully in step with the structures around him whilst following his own path.

Actually, I'm certain it's a Badger performance more than a model, one he seems to knowingly laugh at (such as when he sees Gustavo doing the same thing and sees RIGHT through it, such as when he goes to Germany to see Marguerite and Casper and keeps up his performance of "American Tourist Abroad" for approximately twenty seconds. It's not Marguerite's fault she was a trusting Lion primary and didn't bother to probe. Marguerite was tryna get some.) This veneer of bonhomie totally falls away by the end though. As he says to Hector - "screw Bolsa, screw Eladio, I'm getting revenge and I'm gonna cause this guy some pain".

SPEAKING OF: Lalo's primary is Lion. I previously said Bird because I couldn't get a read on his fae-lord view of morality, but once I twigged that's a Lion trope, it all fell into place. Lalo and Hector share a Primary, and you can absolutely see how Lalo's character is shaped by looking at his uncle (as I've said above). And although I said previously that Hector is probably a Double Lion, I think the magnitude of how Exploded Hector is gets in the way of what his secondary is. I think Hector may just be an awful Badger secondary, one that shows up as functional when he tries bargaining with Mike in the guise of senior citizen, for instance, or tries to pay off Nacho's father. The wince-inducing efforts to suck up to Eladio, also, show an adherence to the old ways that just aren't current with Gustavo's slicker, profit-oriented over person-oriented methods. It's heavy-handed and doesn't work either way, but it doesn't stop it from being a Badger method. It's the Lion primary that runs the Salamanca family, and Lalo has taken his own fae-lord, it is what it is stance on this, sustained by the fire that keeps their family at the top of the heap, Ambition, Glory, and all those other darkGryffindor vibes.

Also I think it's interesting that Hector, for all Lalo's doting nephew persona, doesn't end up being taken care of by him at his hacienda. Lalo chooses to plant himself as far from the Salamanca proceedings north of the border as possible, with even a restrained, utilitarian villa with an entourage of unrelated staff and a few of the peasantry that adore him as a Don in his own right. I think this is a little indicator of some Glory Hound Lion being in there (which means Lalo sees himself as a hero, which...tracks), as well as a further proof that Lalo doesn't have a Slytherin primary - I don't see a Snake VOLUNTARILY ever wanting to have distance between them and their innermost circle.

Which brings us to what underpins Lalo's personality; his truly incredible Snake secondary. This guy adores being in neutral. He likes to switch in and out and watch those around him squirm in discomfort. At his core he doesn't seem to give a cheery sh*t about any kind of social niceties and performances and seems to use any socializations outside of cartel business to out and out psychologically mess with people. As for the rest - literally look at any ten second clip of the guy. Dude is revealing secret bathtub tunnels and diving in and out of vents like he was born for it. And he has a truly terrifying Neutral face, when necessary - as seen with Kim's conversation with him in the prison. Brrrr.

So, Lalo - Lion Snake, with a Badger secondary performance, and an arc in the later seasons that makes him full-on Exploded and out for vengeance.

Gustavo Fring - Double Snake (exploded secondary), Bird Secondary model, Double Badger performance

So I watched Better Call Saul first before seeing Gus in BB...which is tricky, because so much of Gus's character is designed in BCS as a nod to BB, as a piece that provides more context to the BB Gus, aka drug lord supreme. In BCS, we see Gus in an awkward in between stage, like a bug in a chrysalis. He's still working at the restaurant but he's still not far along in his relationships as we see them with Bolsa, Eladio and especially Mike, and Hector isn't in the chair. The reason why I mention this is I think it's interesting - even telling - that one can plot Gus's evolutions as a character across his major relationships. So I'm saying off the bat Loyalist.

Now which Loyalist? Snake all the way down, like the centre of a stick of rock. Outside the stick of rock, Gus is wrapped in a number of Primary models. First is Badger, part of his all-in-one benevolent restaurant manager/member of the community Double Badger package. Gus wears his immigrant status like a gentle bandage, making others sensitive to the elusiveness he has built into his past (unknowable to even the viewer except in hints and stories).

What powers this construction? Why, an empire-building Bird secondary. Gustavo, down to the coldest, most insignificant detail, has his scheme. He has the players, the equipment, the personas, the schedules set up. Everything is waiting in the wings to enter. So why am I still talking about the stick of rock and primaries? Because, gentle reader, I am going to posit a theory - there is a Double Snake lurking in there too.

Now, to understand this, we have to look at the "Generalissimo" and his past and current actions as they occur in BB/BCS. We know his closest friend and partner Max was murdered. We know he came from Chile hot off the Pinochet regime and with dubious German connections that could interrelate with other, murky origins. We know even his closest allies do not know him. And there are those possibilities that are thrown in there, like ingredients floating through a soup - the toys at his house, the mention of a family, the slide from his personable boss and cook to blank-eyed drug lord.

So to support what I feel is the core of Gus's character, I am going to excise David the wine guy from Gus's narrative. Shocking! But you see why - I don't think Gilligould actually chained this together with the other parts of this unknowable cipher they had constructed together. David is supposed to show the beating heart at the centre of the Snake primary, and a kind of courtly old fussiness to Gustavo's secondary that heavily hints at Bird, under all the models.

However, I think this is an over-simplification of a character that has always dealt in a kind of complexity. Compare Gustavo with Snake Bird Tywin Lannister and Double Snake Petyr Baelish. Tywin is utterly above board (not...morally, but in terms of his movements). Even his subterfuge and planning come from a completely cool place that has the contingencies and players lined up. So seemingly Gustavo.

But look at Petyr, and you really see parts of Gustavo's character take shape. An unknown man coming from obscure origins, with a tragic love written into his texture to give him grounding for his visions, and an ever evolving, ever looping pattern of Snake secondary that keeps his character one step away from being coherent to those around him, even the audience. Take that attribute up to ten, and you get Gustavo - his remove, his iciness, his resolve, his consummate Bird Secondary model, keeps the viewer from being able to understand the root of his analysis, how he puts together the main blocks that make him who he is.

And the thing is, he doesn't experience any dissonance over it - except where the writers, in my opinion, become heavy handed. Giancarlo has described how he uses yoga techniques to slow his movements and breath and facial actions down in order to reach the level Gustavo operates at, and I think this can be a useful key in SHC also. I think by the time BCS's final seasons roll round, Gustavo doesn't even know he's a Snake secondary.

Before when it worked in tandem with his Snake primary, obstacles began to occur - he noticed superiors such as those in Chile responded negatively to it, so he constructed a Bird Secondary to work as a utility model whilst being a slippery, hard-to-know creature at his core. It was not strong enough to withstand the brutal immediate action of the cartel, and in that moment Gus fled into his Bird secondary, as a creature tied down by not being able to adapt or change away from a terrible loss, and formed ANOTHER secondary performance, his handy dandy Double Badger, in order to fool his contemporaries, plan, and execute. But Gus's true character - his Double Snake - is long gone. He has buried it so deep that only smoke signals come up every now and then to show it's still there. And that is the tragedy of Gustavo Fring - a man lost even to himself.

I don't know how far SHC goes to support this analysis and honesty a lot of it is such speculation and canon-divergent I don't know how much weight it will hold, but this is as good an analysis I could put together for Gus, so, with a deep breath:

Gus - Double Snake with an Exploded (and buried) secondary, a Bird Secondary model, and a Double Badger performance.

Note: this is what makes Gus's fear of Lalo hilarious and kind of frustrating from a writing perspective - we can never reconcile the ever adaptable and prepared Gus of BB with the one crippled by fear in BCS, by actions he would see as child's play in the original canon. It's supposed to create more material and energy between him and the Lalo character, and I don't actually think it's successful - I think it was an impulse to "humanise"that actually took the character out of his own canon. Which just goes to show, when you're writing a Snake secondary at the heart of a dozen models interacting with ANOTHER Snake secondary at the heart of a dozen models, even the fleetest of writers are going to hit a roadblock. It just ain't the kind of psychology you get anywhere but with a Snake sec, God love em.

[reds-burrow]

I'm 90% sure I'm a Bird Secondary, except that I'm sort of a panicky person and sometimes I have moments whenn I can't think and act on my gut instead. Would this be a Lion Secondary model? Or maybe the Bird is the model?

Oh, no! Please don't sort yourself based on what happens when you're being controlled by emotion! Unless you're getting a feeling of security from these moments, like listening to your gut is your back up to your Bird, I wouldn't even count it as a part of your sorting. What people do when they're panicked, angry, afraid, or desperate only tells you how they act when emotion is the one in the driver's seat. You might be able to identify someone's Primary in this state (people usually make moves to protect or fight for what they value most when pressured), but this is not helpful in revealing Secondaries. I'd argue tdesperate people will look like Burnt Secondaries, trying anything and everything they can to get out of that situation, even if that burning doesn't last once the pressure lifts.

From the sound of it, your panic is typically Lion flavored, but ask yourself: is that panic you? Wouldn't you rather sort yourself based on what you do when you are feeling healthy and safe? It's up to you, ultimately, but as someone who struggles with anxiety, I personally don't consider my anxiety-induced reactions to be the true core of who I am. Instead, I look to what brings me out of that anxiety, back to a healthier headspace. For me, it's usually practicing something stressful beforehand (Badger) or it's looking around and realizing I can adapt to my situation, no matter how bad it gets (Snake). For you, it may be collecting knowledge or tools to help you face something you know will put you in a panic (Bird), or it very well could be trusting your gut and pushing through whatever is stressing you out (Lion). Either way, only you can answer which Secondary gives you comfort and security when things get rough.

[ten-of-imps]

Sorting Hat Chats - A Psalm for a Wild Build

Check out @sortinghatchats and @wisteria-lodge for explanation of the system I will use in this post.

Monk/ Dex - itching for the sound of crickets is the catalysis for leaving the monastery and hitting the road. The change was emotional, and from outside it looked like it happened suddenly, but it was gradually in the making, just behind closed doors. I would sort sibling Dex as a Lion primary, and a bit burnt one. When times get uncomfortable, Dex’s emotions sweep them over and they wonder about going back. Maybe it is not the burning but a Bird primary model, making them question how smart, logical and practical they were. I think it is both. That nagging voice in Dex’s mind, telling them they need to do something bigger and important shows us the big Lion action just before the end of the book - the monk quickly picks themselves up when they find out there is no road anymore, packs a bag and goes into the wild, at this point being led by something invisible and wordless more than the need to hear the crickets. And they burn a lot after reaching the hermitage.

Dex is not a badger primary. He feels no guilt avoiding the village where their family lives, and later we get to know how much their father was important in them becoming a monk, but they do not feel obliged to stay in the community they felt safe in, neither to go back to their family while being a traveling monk. Also, the way they did their duty feels anything but badgery. Sure, people are important, and helping them is nice, and people and communities need them, but Dex feels no security and need in community bonding, building, and leaving is easy, and any bad feeling about missing tea appointments are quickly forgotten.

Speaking of their vocation, Dex’s secondary fits somewhere between lion and badger, and my heart that likes to lean on later. The way they tackle their new job, as self teaching, making a tea stand with no real fitting materials and not much knowledge was improvisational. And it does not work. They needed time and effort to get it going, and for two years this work and helping people was enough to keep their head from doubting the meaning of their life. Still, you could swing it the other way and say they are a lion secondary, because even if lions are and like to be improvisational, not everything works out on their first try and a lot of things need more work and investment, and no human being can avoid it. Not to mention getting a backpack and choosing to stroll from the woods seems quick, bold, and in theme with “this is me, deal with it or move. I will brake before I will bend”. I would say we did not saw enough to define Dex’s secondary, but we can guess and choose for ourselves what we want to see in the empty space in the mean time. My heart leans badger, but my mind stays with lion - they come and say they are changing their vocation, nothing to indicate that before from outside, no warning. For Dex, this was their warning.

Splendid Speckled Mosscap is an idealist, but I feel it would be too easy to sort them as bird primary. Mosscap have their morality all mapped out, built or felt, and they are there to get to know humans, but plot wise they are there for Dex and their emotional breakdown to be a moral and philosophical voice. We hear their opinions and thoughts, but have no idea how they came to it, apart from them mentioning robots functioning according to nature based circles, teaching Dex the definition of remnants being maybe a bit of a built idea. It is not enough for me to comfortable call them bird primary, and a bit uninspiring for the world that sees mechanical beings as sentient.

...........

Dex - Slightly burnt Lion primary (Bird Model)/ Lion secondary

Mosscap - idealist primary, not enough information to tell anything real, and especially not their secondary

[sevilemar]

Hello, Hope you're having a good day/night ahead. I'm the anon who sent that ask about the secondaries.

Hello nonny, I am having a good day reading all about Eberron's Fairhaven, painting NPC minis, and drawing train compartment maps in preparation for our DnD session tomorrow.

Firstly, the shc quiz sorts me into snake primary, and badger secondary. I suspect i may have burned and unburned or am currently burnt. i also suspect that i may have adhd.

Thank you for the information, let's see what the community can add to this *cracks knuckles* (and by this I don't only mean me, because if anyone wants to chime in, please feel free. I don't usually do this anymore, and haven't done it much in general).

The thing where the quiz says, 'all has gone to shit what do you do?' i don't know each time i imagine a hypothetical situation - i just know what to do - either by some prior knowledge or a miraculous room/situation reading

I don't actually remember the question, but it has been some years since I last took the test^^. There is a reason why hypotheticals are only useful to a certain extend, though. Real stories, preferably about small every-day stuff, are much better for sorting someone in general.

I also analyse things all the time, like all the time. its kind of a habit. I'm having a conversation? i'm analysing what i'm saying, what your reaction and answers are, and responding based on what you say.

It kind of sounds birdy, but I know a few people who do this, too, and I don't think they are all bird secondary. I do it, and I don't think I am a bird. I'm thinking more of 'learning/trying to improve social interactions', and/or 'having insecurities around social interactions' when I read it, which could happen regardless of secondaries. Could also be burning, as you said.

i'm not good at lying in the moment but if thought about at least once i can lie easily. makes me feel a liiittle icky - but not always & not if its for good reason.

Half a point against lion then, though feeling icky while lying is mostly about primaries.

Snake: I envy this secondary so effing much (at least, by the quiz's description), i want to be them! but also am in awe of how they seem to code switch shift and maintain that? and not grow tired of it? i would love to be able to do this, but i know i'm not capable of holding onto that for long, or at all.

Not feeling capable of doing something, saying it's tiring, can be burned language, where you do not feel at home with any secondarie's methods at all, and therefore they are all tiring. Or it can be one of the other secondaries admiring they do not experience in the same way. Only you can decide what it is, nonny.

But some of the notes of the description the quiz gives like, [maneuverability] i love this word there - i just - what a good word. beautiful word to describe how i sometimes feel i am & want to be.

I lack the context for the word atm, and I do not have the time to look it up. My best guess is that if you are not snake secondary, you might be on your way to acquiring a model because you admire what it represents. Or you are unburning a snake secondary. Again, you tell me, nonny.

[While a Snake secondary might find creative interpretations and presentations of the truth to be comforting and necessary] YES

I agree. Though not while talking to lion secondaries, and other people who value honesty above everything else. It is an interesting experience consciously trying to be in neutral for someone^^

I mostly just want to be this secondary, but i know i can't i'm not quick enough, or smart enough for this, it sounds exhausting and exhilarating at the same time.

OK, first things first. You do not need to be smart to be snake secondary, or quick necessarily. Shocker, I know ;)

Yes, this might be how others see us, or it might not, depending on if you are good at multiplayer or not. But in my experience, snake secs mostly do not see themselves thus. Not necessarily. We might have treasured social memories that go in this direction, but otherwise, we are just average and trying our best, just like everyone else.

Bird: I know i collect, but the quiz just makes it sound way more important than it is and i don't really do it like that - like, its not even recent info - this is info i collected when i was younger (im 20 now)

Hm, I think I do not really know what you mean by collect here. In my understanding, birds like to collect stuff/knowlegde/people/etc. not because they need them right now, not even necessarily because they might need them later, but just because it is fun, or their brain demands it.

For myself, I cannot stand to collect anything that I do not love or use, and 'I might need it later' is a pet peeve of mine. But I am not only a snake sec, I am also a minimalist, and I suspect this is far more of the latter than the former.

Let's say half a point for bird?

I don't think i build tools for specific situations either, i just go in, analyse what's going on, and just know what i can do to work on this

Sounds pretty situational to me.

i do like preparing for situations, a tiny prep a while before would help tons. Throw me in without prior warning, i'll panic a teensy bit and then adapt - by coming up with plans on the fly, but its a little stressful, but i will rise to the occasion.

Hm, maybe bird model? Although the way you say 'coming up with plans on the fly' and 'it's a little stressful' do make me think there's a bit more to the bird. Although the former can just be a phrasing issue, and the latter might be burned talk. Another half point for bird?

[When the only point of learning, preparing, or studying is because you want to? ] This i get so totally. I love learning.

I love learning, too, but only when there is a practical reason for it. I learned about group management while I was leading a group for some time. I learned about shading and colour theory when I started painting minis. I am re-learning music theory because I need it for my guitar practice, etc.

This might be just a me thing, or it might be a difference between snake and bird, I don't know.

Lion: [Lion secondaries are self-defined. Their integrity and their honesty is a deal with themselves, not others. ] This i so totally get.

A point for lion then.

[they act based on what they believe, who they are, and what they think is the right thing to do. ] not always, but yes, i do agree I'm quite direct i've been told, and honest. i can be this. and i don't mind being it - but not always - which makes me think this miight be a model? idk

Might be a model, or might be burning. I have seen this in some unburning lions I know, so could be both. But the way you phrased it ('I don't mind being it') feels more like a model or a performance to me.

I just love how lions get shit done.

Who doesn't?

like yes, go them! i wish i could do that and be less wishy-washy about it. i hesitate a lot.

Man, this reminds me so strongly of a currently unburning lion secondary I know. I give burned lion a big point for this, actually

And finally, Badger: The thought of me being a badger secondary - irritates me, annoys me, i don't want it - though i suspect i might be. i don't like it at all. i don't know why

Might be interesting for you to find out more about why you are so against it. I have the same kind of feelings about bird secondary, and though I have not come to a satisfying conclusion on it, the journey so far was very rewarding.

-My culture is quite a badger-secondary culture

Not just your culture, your family too as you describe later. Maybe it has something to do with your antipathy? ;)

[Badger Secondaries invest themselves into their world with service and support.] uhh no, i'd much rather be alone

I'd say you might be an introvert, which does not mean you couldn't be badger sec. But we count it against badger for the moment.

the quiz keeps giving me badger and i don't relate all that much i do wish it worked that way though - people you know coming to aid, reputation preceding you - the goals.

This definitely sounds like you have bad experiences with groups/communities, with being on the outside of them, etc. It also could be burned badger talk ('I wish it worked that way'). Maybe you'll find a reason for your burning if you get into it more? I wouldn't know, I am not a therapist.

[a Badger wants to show up. They want to work well and fairly. They want to achieve things honestly and stand on solid ground. ] i used to be this a lot? i still am, but its more ehhhhhh don't care, just get things done. i need it done.

Either you were unburned then and are burned now, or you had a model and it is burned now. Either way, this is 100% burned talk.

[They pour labor, time, and love into what they care about and those investments pay themselves back in time. ] No (this totally describes my mum, to an extent my dad, and my paternal grandmother by the way)

So not only is your culture badger sec, your family is, too. No wonder you have issues with this particular secondary, whether it is yours or not.

i also don't mind cutting corners - like the badger way sounds right, but also seems tiring. like, is there no better way. this - i can't- i did this all through most of school, and i'm now done with it.

This also is strong burned talk, either of a model or of your secondary.

How i deal w people: i do match their energy, and respond how i think they'd react well to, but also analysis, and observation.

Sounds fluid to me, with a nice bird model to help improve your interactions. Feels very familiar ;)

Also, if i've interacted with certain people under a specifc role, or they've seen me in a particular way for a long while - i struggle to be any way different with them, like i canNot. help.

Hm, interesting. I don't think it has to do with sorting much, though? At least for neurotypicals, putting people in specific roles and boxes is how we function socially, and fighting that requires constant effort. I think it happens to all of us all the time, and it is not a bad thing as long as you are fine with your assigned roles.

Can even be fun to play with it a little, you know? Shocking people mildly with hinting at other sides of you, and watching how they react.

Low stakes problem solving - cause secondary is the how- in game, unless i figure it out in a short while i go use the cheatsheet, i don't like to stress on just a game.

Sensible ;) And either burned, snake, or bird.

Difficult problem solving: take in info, understand everything. what do i know, how do i feel,what's the situation. if conflict between what needs to be done, and how i feel/what i feel/think is right - come to a compromise, and act. but do - if all thinky stuff fails go with gut.

You know, this rather sounds like lion to me, with the emphasis on acting and doing shit, and going with your gut. Could also be frustrated burned talk, because when nothing feels right, I at least tend to not do anything, and then after a while get frustrated and just do whatever to just do something.

that's all i can think of. Thank you, i hope this is enough for you to help me out. Do feel free to reorder this so its more helpful to you. Have a nice day! And sorry, for the long(er than i even expected) message, and for bothering you.

More burned talk, what with the bothering and all, or just cultural differences. It's not a bother; I wouldn't have said yes if I didn't wanted to crack my knuckles on this, and I appreciate you asking beforehand.

I think you are definitely burned secondary; there is just too much burned talk here for you not to be. It is difficult to say what is under it, but I get slightly liony vibes from it, or (and I am sorry to say it) also badger.

But I really do not know you enough to say if you once had a badger model and it burned because you couldn't live in it anymore and your lion wanted out, or if your badger got burned because it did not present in the right way to fit with the badger secondary expectations your family and culture had for you.

I do not know how to help you find out, or how to help you unburn your secondary. I only know that you sound like you could use a break, and I hope you get to have one. I definitely send some hugs and positive vibes your way.

[wisteria-lodge]

badger primary + unBurning lion secondary (badger secondary model)

Hi, Wisteria!! I remember reading that you're a teacher, so I hope that the school year is going well! If you have time (I know your inbox is packed), I'd love some input on what my sorting might be. I can convince myself of anything -- most days, I'm certain I'm a double badger, but there are times when I think I could be an idealist with a badger-flavored system, or even a snake that *wants* to be a badger.

Childhood experiences that come to mind... I tended to be the ringleader of the neighborhood kids. 

Classically, this points me at Lion secondary (who naturally build armies) or Badger secondary (who naturally build communities.) 

I came up with the games, made sure people were included, and organized people (proudest kindergarten moment: getting my whole class to join hands and yell "POWER RANGERS, MYSTIC FORCE!"). When a neighbor girl broke her ankle, I went door to door, rallying the troops so we could all visit and comfort her. 

You do use the metaphor of an army... but all the examples are so soft and Badgery... which isn’t to say that Badger secondaries have to be soft... 

I’m thinking about that “[I] made sure people were included” part though. Because that’s getting into values, Badger primary values. I’m wondering if you might not be a Badger Lion, actually. 

I was also possessive of my friends, I'd get jealous when they'd talk about friends from school or feel incredibly hurt if I wasn't invited to something. 

Oh this is interesting. Because this sounds like an immature Badger primary who doesn’t want to even be reminded of groups they’re not part of. I wonder if you were aware of a very clear in group/out group when you were younger. And if you didn’t... Snake with a huge inner circle is also a possibility.

I was protective of my loved ones and stood up to bullies on their behalf. 

I’m liking Lion secondary for you. And Loyalist primary. 

I grew out of the jealousy as I got older, learning that I couldn't be everything to everyone and that I needed more than one best friend, so my friends could have other besties too. 

Maybe Snake primary? With this focus on BEST friends... which young Snakes do care a LOT about...

I'm not sure exactly when it started, but there came a point when I just... withdrew. I stopped inviting people over, stopped playing at recess. It was a lonely time, but I found solace in books and movies. Harry, Ron, and Hermione; Percy, Annabeth, and Grover; The Avengers; Han Solo and Princess Leia... they became my best friends. I'd create elaborate stories in which I became part of their world. In these stories, some higher power would send me to a fictional world, in which I already knew the plot and could help the main characters avoid pitfalls and save people from their scripted deaths. I also had healing powers, where I could touch someone and take all their pain (physical or emotional) on myself. 

Hmm. Now this is a very Badger secondary fantasy, I think, with that focus on literally absorbing other’s pain and being able to FIX it (it’s very relatable, is what it is.) Which makes me think that your “withdrawal” from life... could probably be described as your Lion secondary burning. And then maybe you’re putting a Badger secondary model over the top to keep functioning? It happens. 

This retreat into fictional worlds was sparked, I think, by moving schools and problems at home. 

This would be really, really hard on a Loyalist. 

My parents had a difficult marriage, and I took it on myself to be my mom's confidant and best friend. I was also my sibling's caregiver (they have some disabilities) and took my responsibilities toward them very seriously. 

Yeah, that is some serious, heavy Badger secondary. And I’m going to say it’s probably a model, because you talk about as though it’s this external thing - “I took it upon myself” “responsibilities.” 

My dad was a stifling presence-- everything had to be his way. He'd call himself "the general" and say that our job wasn't to ask questions: when he said jump, we'd say "how high?" Expressing my thoughts to him never mattered, so I'd just squash them. 

That’s brutal. That would be especially brutal on a young Lion secondary, and I would not be surprised if that contributed to your Lion secondary Burning. 

My solace in all of this was my mom, she knew exactly how it felt to be dominated by him and we'd often hold hands through his tirades, comforting each other through it. They finally got divorced when I was in high school. 

It is not - and it was not - your responsibility to be your Mom’s confidant, best friend, and emotional support. It’s just simply not a job that you actually had the ability to do, especially starting (it sounds like) in MIDDLE school. But it’s something that you tried to do, using a Badger secondary skillset. I’ve been there.

For years, my biggest fear had been that I'd have to choose between them. 

THE loyalist primary dilemma. 

But my dad ended up making that choice for me -- his behaviors spiraled out of control, and I had to run away from him. 

You throw that in so casually, but that’s a HUGE thing. And sure, if the circumstances were extreme enough, that could have been any secondary... but all things being equal that’s sounding like a Lion secondary solution. 

As time passed, truths about his past came to light. My mom and I found out about years of abuse that he'd heaped upon other women in his life. With those discoveries, I decided to cut him out of my life. It wasn't necessarily because it was the "right" or "moral" thing, I still feel guilty about it sometimes, but it was because of the pain he'd inflicted on other people. I couldn't reconcile his love for me with how he treated other people in my life, with how he viewed the world. 

Oh. OH. Badger Lion. Badger Lion ALL THE WAY. All that focus on communities? And I bet, in that moment, it didn’t feel like the ‘right’ or ‘moral’ thing because it felt like the ONLY thing you COULD do. 

I spent several months in a foreign country on a service mission. Though I'd always dreamed of other worlds, being so far from home hurt badly. I was constantly worried about my mom and sibling. Our dog died while I was gone, and that grief was made so much worse by the separation. I wanted to be there for them, but we were thousands of miles apart. 

Badger primary. They don’t like being separated from their people. 

A lot of aspects of mission life were difficult for me -- there was pressure to achieve certain numbers and statistics rather than truly ministering to living, breathing people. 

Oh I bet both your Badger primary AND Lion secondary HATED that.

My goal was just to provide service and love, which didn't always coincide with those in authority. 

That classic Lion secondary always has a bit of a rebel streak. Always has a tendency to butt up against those in authority, which we are seeing here with the mission administration (and previously, with your father.)

More random thoughts/details: I have a bleeding heart for animals and want to be a vegetarian (can't at home, so it'll have to be when I move out). 

Badger primary. 

I am incredibly indecisive and find it so hard to trust myself-- choosing a major has been a nightmare.

Burnt lion secondary. (It does seem like it’s getting better though.) 

My past experience predicts that if someone likes me, just wait: they'll find out the truth somehow, that I've fooled them, that I'm not who they think I am, and then they'll leave me. 

I mean, objectively you’ve had groups of fantastic friends, who adored you, and who you had to move away from. What this seems (apart from some just general human being abandonment issues) is the angst of a burnt Lion secondary who thinks that they have to layer on the Badger REAL thick in order to be acceptable and liked. Lion secondaries are intense, they are, and sometimes they do rub some people the wrong way. (And inspire intense loyalty in others.) 

Happiness, for me, would look like having a comfortable and happy home, taking care of the people I love, writing a book, contributing to the community, and just living a peaceful, quiet life. I just want to love, be loved, heal people, bring peace…

A beautiful Badger primary fantasy. 

What do you think? I feel a Badger secondary in there, and probably a charred primary. Loyalist? Idealist? Thanks for your time and patience, if you have any follow-up questions, I'll do my best to answer them. -- Rih

Your primary seems in really good shape. I wouldn’t worry about that at all. All the angst is coming from your methods - there’s a Lion secondary that you don’t really trust in there, and there’s a Badger model that you like, sometimes, but is probably being overused these days. Honestly, service missions are built on the backs of Badger secondaries, and the fact that you went on one, and did not gel with the way things were done... honestly gave me a lot of information. 

[kayrockerqog]

I saw someone else (@cohens-songbird) do a sort-of favourites thing for a fandom introduction, and I like the idea so I'm doing one too! :)c

Favourite Character(s)

Out of the "main" casts for all of the games, and if I had a gun to my head to pick only one, I'd have to choose Dr. Tenenbaum. She's such an intriguing woman in every iteration she's had in the series, and I find her voice very soothing for some odd reason. Sander Cohen and Augustus Sinclair are tied with her for the spot, of course, since charming men with multiple quirks and expanded caricature personalities are my weakness-

But, and this may be cheating a little, Bill McDonough is an underrated fave of mine. Man built most of Rapture and has such a presence throughout the first game that you only notice it upon replaying! Plus, I'm a big fan of the prequel novel,,

Favourite Secondary Character(s)

When I tell ya'll I would straight up kill a man for Jasmine Jolene, I am not kidding. That woman deserved so much better, and I want to give her that life, I swear to GOD!! The same sentiment goes for Mark Meltzer, that poor man :c

Favourite Level(s)

It would be a crime not to say Fort Frolic since I adore the hell out of it design-wise and gameplay-wise, but I'm also kinda into the entire vibe of the second episode of Burial at Sea, specifically the Ryan the Lion Academy. Something about the environment and how this caricature of Andrew Ryan as a children's propaganda mascot intrigues me.

Favourite Fight(s)

Atlas, hands down. I just kicked his ass on Survivor Mode the other day, and it was SO satisfying!! I never tire of destroying him or the cutscene where the Little Sisters stab him to death.

Favourite of the Games

I'm such a sucker for the series' primary narrative trait of "father-daughter adventure time" in other media (see Detroit Become Human and TTWDG). Still, Bioshock 2 hit me on a whole other level. I am so enamoured by Delta's relationship with Eleanor, and it's so far the game I've played through the most.

I would obliterate entire armies for Eleanor.

Favourite DLC

It's a tie between Minerva's Den and Burial at Sea II. Both struck me in very different parts of my writer-monkey brain, and I was so pleased with them story-wise. Plus, I love any reference to Athena in anything ever, so I am a bit biased-

(and because I have more to say, FPS aspect bonus round!)

Favourite Weapon(s)

Shotgun/Machine Gun gang, baby!!! Trap bolts and mini-turrets are also very fun; I like to be elaborate with my beat-em-ups :)c

Favourite Plasmid/Vigor

INSECT SWARM!!! I am an Insect Swarm stan, and I will not debate it. Incinerate and Murder of Crows are also very fun, and I would like to consider Peeping Tom to be SEVERELY underrated.

Favourite Tonic(s)

I actively go out of my way to get Human Inferno II and Vending Expert II. they bring me peace in the game.

Do I Like Hacking?

No, absolutely not. The minigame stresses me out, so I spend SO much on auto hacks.

Favourite Enemy Type

Big Daddies intrigue me the most design-wise, but I like the Houdini and Spider splicers best. Maybe because watching them get burnt and stung to all hell is super satisfying. I like my bees and fire; what can I say?

[ethos-logos-pathos-blog]

wow hi!! i’m the entp 6w7 double lion and thanks sm for your detailed response.

there were 2 main issues i had that i should have expressed more clearly- the first is that i felt 6w7 sort of conflicted with the double lion stereotype of charging in and being pretty fearless. i think i project a fearless persona a lot because i feel i am pretty shy and breakable inside (i was an extremely sensitive kid), but i have trouble internally with claiming it as my own because i’m insecure about my previous shyness and feel fake about it, like i’m worried i’m smothering my “true self” (even though i seriously haven’t been shy in years!). i feel more anxious, fidgety, and flighty than how i imagine a double lion. but you’ve addressed that (although i Do feel i put on masks, but that might be a model because it is deeply exhausting to project facades in the long term)

the second and more prominent worry i had is about my mbti functions and lion primary. i’ve always felt i have low fi- i have a deeply unstable sense of self (which is why i am so clearly enamored with personality tests). my fe is by comparison much higher, i have people pleasing tendencies and sometimes sacrifice standing up for my ideals (although some ideals are non negotiable) in favor of maintaining social harmony.

i also find that my fi is weak in a way where i have trouble knowing my own beliefs- others can often convince me of new stances easily if they talk long enough. (tbf i also think i can convince other people of stuff if i talk long enough lol) long term, i ultimately still process and decide whether they feel right to me and if they stick. but i often agree with and see other perspectives very easily and have to ruminate on them.

things “feel right” to me like a lion, but that doesn’t line up with the low fi i know i have?? like would a lion really be so easily convinced of a new stance in the short term like that? i guess i just feel way more reliant on social validation than a lion like i also often have the sense that others automatically know better than me, like i trust myself less. i always find myself become more birdish when i’m questioning myself because it’s so hard to rely on an internal sense of right for me. so maybe i’m a bit burnt hahaha sorry for the big mass of disorganized thoughts! but i just wanted to thank you for your detailed analysis and follow up with you

Thank you so much for following up with me!!! I'm so sorry I didn't see this sooner (I haven't checked my blog recently)!

Okay, let's break this down.

On the surface, 6w7 does seem to conflict with the Double Lion stereotype, but once you get more involved with SHC and the wonderful little community we have, you'll come to find that Double Lions come in all kinds of flavors :) There are plenty of Double Lions that are cautious and have people-pleaser tendencies. It really just comes down to whether or not your moral priorities are internal and felt and whether or not your preferred reactionary approach is just being authentic to yourself.

So it does seem like you've got some built up negative emotions surrounding your personality, and that definitely indicates there might be some burning going on somewhere, but this still reads as Lion Secondary. The thing that stands out to me is that you're most concerned with authenticity. You're worried about whether or not your confident "persona" is true to yourself because you were shy when you were younger, but let me let you in on a little secret: I was one of those super confident kids that everyone looked up to as a leader, that everyone thought was fearless, but the truth was, I was probably just as scared and fragile and flighty as you were when you were younger. In reality, everyone is. No one is truly confident right from the get-go. We're all just trying to find our way, putting on a brave face in the hopes that it'll all work out in the end. A lot of times we throw on that brave mask and part way through we realize we really do have it all together and that's when it becomes real. So it's okay if sometimes you feel like you're acting stronger than you really are, we all do that to an extent, and I don't think it makes us any less authentic.

And maybe sometimes you do put on masks. Being a Lion Secondary - 100% true to yourself 100% of the time - just isn't always feasible as much as I'm sure you wish it was. There are probably times where you have to put on a bit of a performance or a mask just to accomplish a task or work through whatever situation is in front of you. It really just comes down to what you act like when you're at your most comfortable, how you would prefer to handle a situation given optimal circumstances. In those situations, are you putting on masks, using a crafted persona, or mirroring those around you? Or are you just getting to be yourself? As a Lion Secondary (especially a Double Lion), I'm sure you're thinking "Well of course, given the best circumstances, I'd be myself! Who wouldn't?!" So it might surprise you when I tell you that is a purely Lion Secondary thing. Bird secondaries like to craft personas. Their ideal circumstances would probably be a situation in which one of their crafted personas, such as Tutor!Bird for example, comes smoothly in handy. For a Badger, they mirror the energy/vibe/demeanor of the people around them, so their ideal scenario would probably involve getting to work with a group of people who's energy they really click with and getting to bounce off each other. For a Snake Secondary, like me, my ideal scenario is adapting to whatever situation is placed in front of me so well that no one can tell I walked in completely unprepared.

Now, onto MBTI and the Lion Primary conundrum.

So the unstable sense of self is something I think a lot of us struggle with, especially those of us drawn to personality tests as you've so aptly mentioned. And that's okay, or at least it's going to be okay. I think that SHC has done a lot for me; it's really helped me grow to understand myself in tangible way. I hope these personality tests will help you do the same. Of course, personality tests and communities are not therapy, and sometimes we just need to sit down with a professional and work some things out. I, personally, go to therapy, and, while it was one of the hardest decisions I ever made, it's certainly been one of the best. So I'm a big advocate for it.

Anyways, continuing on, Fi is not one of the ENTP's preferred functions, so it totally makes sense that you're more dependent on Fe (need for group consensus, people pleasing, etc.) Now, does this conflict with being a Lion Primary? I don't think so. When you mentioned maintaining social harmony, I did think for a moment that that does sound a little bit Badger, but I think you maybe have just had some stronger Badger voices in your life or environment perhaps? It seems less like something you feel on a deeply moral level, and more like something you feel is necessary for your safety in a way. Like, "I don't feel confident and safe in voicing my true beliefs in this situation, so I feel it's best to go along with how the group feels right now" instead of "These are my people, my community, and it would be wrong for me to not trust their moral judgement because they come first." The first one is a Lion Primary reasoning, and the second one is a Loyalist Primary (Badger or Snake) reasoning. You're an Enneagram 6, so I think it's very possible that you've learned social harmony is safer than social discord, and sometimes disagreements between people we're close to can set off alarms in our heads about personal safety because we relate them to a time of instability in our past where arguments and disharmony were actually a genuine threat to our safety.

"others can often convince me of new stances easily if they talk long enough"

Okay, I may be wrong, but I don't think this is a low Fi thing at all actually. I think this is a developed Fe, high Ti thing. Otherwise known as an ENTP special (although I might be the only one who calls it that lol). I really think this is just something us ENTPs do, and I don't think it has anything to do with morality. As you go on to say next, "i ultimately still process and decide whether they feel right to me and if they stick. but i often agree with and see other perspectives very easily and have to ruminate on them." I'm the exact same way, my friend. I think we ENTPs just really like to play around with ideas. As Wisteria has previously mentioned in some other posts, sometimes Lion Primaries like to do this thing called the "rubber duck method" where we like to drop ideas into the murky water of our minds and see if they float. I haven't collected enough information on MBTI as it intersects with SHC, but I wouldn't be surprised if ENTP Lion Primaries were the kind of people who do this the most. I think it just works really well with how we like to conceptualize and internalize moral systems. I kind of see it like this:

After being presented with an idea

Is the idea even a little bit possible?

If yes, then lets assume it's true.

Now let's explore it as a truth. How does it work? How does it interact with other truths? What are the weaknesses and strengths of this idea?

Does it feel right? How am I responding to it? How are other people responding to it? What final questions do I have about this?

Finally, do I actually agree with this idea and wish to incorporate it into my system or have I decided that it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny?

The important thing to note here is that you're still ruminating on how you feel about it. You consider your feelings on the matter valid input on whether or not something really is true. From what I understand, true Bird Primaries just don't see it that way. They have feelings about issues, obviously, but they personally value their logic and provable truths over their personal truths. It feels irresponsible to them, even, to choose their personal feelings over what they believe is a logical choice. I think that fact that you don't trust yourself, so you're trying to use a Bird morality and it obviously isn't making you happy, is just more proof that you really are a Lion Primary. I think there probably is some burning here, but I think you're starting to become conscious of it, which is a good thing because that means you can work to slowly unburn and start to trust yourself more. Remember, Primaries are supposed to make you feel good. So when you're trying to stay truly Bird because you don't trust your internal compass, and it's not making you feel good, that's a sign that it's not who you truly are.

I want to thank you again for sending me this ask, and I really, really hope this helped a little bit. You're actually my first ask ever, so I was super excited to see this in my inbox! Also please don't be afraid to keep sending asks or comment on this post if you want to keep this discussion going or have more questions; I promise I'm having a great time discussing SHC, MBTI, and Enneagram with you :)

[amai-no-ura]

The Longest Day in Chang An typology

Zhang Xiao Jing - ESTP 8w9 sp/so - Double Lion (Snake primary model)

He fell to 5-ish inaction for a long time but when he realizes what he has to protect, he sprung back. I wanted to put 6w5 to him at first, but he doesn't react from his head (like Yuan Zai) but from his gut. And this is a good example of Lion primary with snake model. He cares a LOT about his people but when pushes come to shove, he will choose the cause first (sacrificing his spy to get information, for example).

Li Bi - ESTJ 1w2 sp/so - Double Bird (Lion Secondary model adopted from Zhang Xiao Jing)

Initially, he is only a pampered boy who wants to please his master/friend the crown prince. He will do anything to help the crown prince then he met Zhang Xiao Jing. Li Bi is a very double bird - when he knows his value (we for the crown prince!) isn't working, he adopts Zhang Xiao Jing's values. He adopts Zhang Xiao Jing's methods when he knows that the usual way doesn't work anymore (we won't play by the rule). He does grow into a better man over the course of the story - more resolute, more centered and more mature.

Xu Bin - INFJ 1w9 sp/so - Lion-Bird

This guy is a genius...

Long Bo / Xiao Gui - ENFJ 1w2 sp/so - Double Badger

This, folks, this is how you write a Double badger! Long Bo is a product of society, when you burn badgers to the point where nothing matters, they will destroy everything. Long Bo used to be loyal and upstanding citizen. A great comrade in arms who care for his soldiers and his jiangshan. But the Empire abandoned him, abandoned his people. He came to see the empire, not as a beacon of hope and people, but as a decadent rot that needs to be taken away so people can live in peace. So his people will be avenged.

His method is also very badger - he recruits people by being nice to them genuinely. He allows people to follow him willingly and they do. Because they know he will take care of his own. He is very charismatic and very single-minded. But in the end, his downfall is his inability to detach from people (Fe-dom) and his inability to contemplate his actions before it's too late (Ti-inferior).

Tan Qi - ISTJ 9w1 so/sp - Lion-Snake (can we change snake to fox?)

This girl is SMART! Clear Snake secondary, look at how she dances around everyone and strings them along with her plan.

Yuan Zai - ESTJ 6w5 sp/so - Double Snake

At first he annoys me, but he does grow on me in the end. He does have his principle and has strong sense of duty (as usual for enneagram 6). In this story, Yuan Zai is just a poor official, the only way he can rise is to gain merits and get on the high ranking officials' good side. So he has to be pragmatic and cunning. But he does have his limits and boundary.

And his relationship with Wang Yunxiu is hilarious. At first, he thought he could string her along, then fall in love with her, then realize his wife-to-be is an absolute unit. Without Wang Yunxiu, he wouldn't dare to do half of what he did. He is way too cautious.

Wang Yunxiu - ESFP 8w7 sp/so - Snake-Lion

I love Yuan Zai and Wang Yunxiu's dynamic. Brain and brawn at its finest. She is heedless and impulsive, but she is also quite fearless the way 8w7 usually are.

Lin Jiulang - ESTJ 8w9 so/sp - Lion-Bird

Ugh...

Yuchang - ESFP 6w7 sx/sp - Burnt Badger primary, Lion secondary

Bellatrix. Any question? No? Okay, let's move on.

[mysticalenthusiastvoid]

I'm going to sort my family from most recently dead to furthest.

Grandma - Badger Snake. I thought maybe she was a double Badger, but I think she modeled Badger sec because it was expected of her, but she was traditional and involved in her church community, so Badger primary. I say she was a Snake secondary due to her general mischeviousness, go with the flow attitude, and doing things like once tricking me into getting a flu shot by paying for two.

Mom - Double Bird or Bird Badger. Would do a deep dive on any subject she found interesting and once she decided that something was true, good luck changing her mind. She could possibly have been a Badger sec due to building communities wherever she went. Used to clash with her a fair amount, but she also could have been a burnt Lion primary.

Grandpa - This one is the hardest due to him being gone for so long, but he could be the double Badger out of the bunch. Also community oriented.