#ceroba also called them naive

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

Clover's personality (in-depth)

This thing turned out way longer than intended. As promised, I wrote my opinions in regards to Clover's mbti; I also wanted to include the enneagram but figured it would be too much, so I'll do that separaretly. For those who wanna get straight to the point, just scroll to the end of the post for a pic of the functions I think Clover has. But if you want more details, read the whole thing. Probably not many people will wanna do that, but I had fun, lol. Please excuse me for nerding out

Analysis

Even before they got into the Underground, Clover thought to themselves "Ok, this is a dangerous mountain and I ain't coming back, I'm probably gonna die and therefore not live to see the rest of my life play out BUT I'm gonna follow my values anyway. They're worth the risk." To me, right off the bat, that's Fi over Ti (aka inner values and morals over inner facts and logic).

I've done some research on this stuff and found out how "Fi knows the value of something not by analyzing it but by feeling it deep inside themselves that it is how it should be" Ti has to be as objective as possible, Fi doesn't. So I sat down and thought about how exactly Clover approached situations.

I feel like their main reasoning for being in the Underground were their inner values and beliefs of finding out what happened to the children. That's why I'd say they're an introvert rather than an extrovert (it's not because they're quiet and reserved, although they are, but because Clover's inner world affects their outer world). Now, both Ti and Fi look inward, and those inner thoughts and feelings affect how they interact with the external world. The real question is: is Clover objective enough to be considered a dominant Ti user?

We can see in the Vengeance route that Clover is stubborn with their beliefs and refuses to look at things from a more... logical POV: "Asgore killed five humans. Is it fair to wipe out every other monster in my way who gives me even the slightest reason to do it?" Martlet was the only exception because she was the only one who had tried to be nice and understanding. Clover's dark side is that they're tunnel-visioned and see morality as black and white (don't look deeper as to WHY the monsters do what they do), and blindly follow their own beliefs over what objectively makes sense. Just like Ceroba, who I'm positive is a feeler (she only considers how she felt about Chujin and not how skilled of an engineer he actually was, even when there's clear proof he wasn't the best at his job). 

Objectively, it's not fair to kill so many monsters after only five humans were killed. If Clover wanted fair vengeance, they would have stopped after five monsters were killed. But no. According to Clover's own logic, everyone morally imperfect, everyone who's hurt them, who tried to hurt them, or messed up somehow, must die. So, Clover isn't thinking about what makes sense; they're thinking about what makes sense to THEM, and stubbornly hold onto that till the end (again, like Ceroba), even after Martlet's warnings. She says how the Royal Guard will be after them.

The logical (T) thing to do would be to STOP before things become even messier, but once again, no. Clover doesn't care about the consequences, only fulfilling their mission that is driven by their own set of values. No matter which route you choose, you will be presented with Clover's own version of what "justice" means. It's not the objective truth, it's not what's the logical thing to do; they follow their own framework based on their (our) choices.

"If unhealthy INFPs are dealing with threatened values or viewpoints that oppose their own, they can go the other way and imagine that others are all corrupt, thinking badly of them, and deluded. They may see themselves as the only people who see “the truth”, or the only people who really care to make a difference in the world. They can become especially harsh and critical of others and take on a martyr role, gradually secluding themselves from other people". - this feels like geno Clover; they thought they were the hero but they were playing the villain all along

Now that I think about it, the logical thing to do, the one that makes the most sense, would be never to have entered Mt. Ebott in the first place. And if vengeance was what Clover wanted to do, it is fair and makes objective sense to kill only five monsters (since that's how many humans died). But as explained, Clover didn't follow that logical conclusion, but rather their own twisted sense of justice. The same goes for neutral. It's Clover who chooses who gets to live and who gets to die based on their own beliefs and feelings, which are not backed up by facts. Everything they do they do because they themselves feel like it should be done. They are the one who decide who gets to live and who doesn't based on their own opinion/how severe they think the misdeed of the final boss is. This counts for the regular monsters who attack them, too; again, THEIR own subjective decision.

For example, they might see Dalv's actions as acceptable/forgiveable and spare him, but not Starlo's and kill him. Objectively, both characters are messy in their own way, but Clover gets to be the "judge" and decide their fate, not objectively looking at the situation, but subjectively. In short, according to them, Dalv may deserve to live, but not Starlo. 

And even if they're a dominant Ti user, which I don't think they are, Clover is more past and future-oriented than present-oriented (N over S). As mentioned, they thought about how much they'd risk by going down Mt. Ebott (potentially dying, and definitely never seeing the surface ever again, or their family) but they followed their heart's desires; to them, morals and ethics (their own morals and ethics) were more important than what the more logical thing to do was (stay on the surface where it's safe).

In other words, they could already "predict" what would happen in the future, while in the present moment (the beginning of the journey).

And right before sacrificing their soul in pacifist, they think about how their death would affect ALL the monsters in the future, whether they had directly met and befriended them or not, even though they wouldn't be there to see it.

Clover seems to be able to easily move between the past, present and future, unlike sensors, who are mainly in the present moment (this is what I've heard somewhere at some point and remembered it, dunno how true it is). They can easily recall the past, and what they remember are things that moved them on the inside.

I've heard some of my friends say that Clover's character arc was to become a kinder person (develop their Fe), which, honestly, I don't think is the case. They simply acted on their inner views of what justice truly means, without further analyzing whatever they believed justice to be.

In pacifist, they're naturally selfless and kind and forgiving: a bit of a prankster, but they're one of "the best souls" according to Martlet. Just look at the ACT options that they used to befriend monsters. Quietly listens to Decibat, offers Dalv a handshake (and friendship), easily forgives Martlet, Starlo, and even Ceroba (+ gives her a hug), endures so many hardships yet keeps their heart pure and selfless. 

They were always driven by something bigger than themselves (like Chujin, who I also think is a N user).

ISTPs are more adventurous and independent and flexible and focused on current problems in the present moment; Clover has been future-oriented from the start; they depended on Toriel to take care of them, and didn't try to immediately "adapt" to the monster world. Their 1st reaction was to stay safe and cozy. ESTJs (yeah, at some point I thought Clover could be one) are more "ruthless" in their pursuits, they "force" others to adopt their inner values. Clover doesn't do this in any route; they simply act upon their own beliefs, but aren't demanding that other monsters to have those same beliefs.

That's why I think they're an INFP.

Functions

Fi (dominant) – "If something goes against their moral code, they will not go through with it." It went against Clover’s moral code to spare monsters in genocide and abort the mission, so they didn’t, regardless of Martlet’s warnings.

"Fi dominants are inclined to speak up against beliefs or actions that go against their personal values or express disapproval of certain behaviors." I can't find the screenshot, but in the Mines, if you interact with the character who's in the same room as one of the puzzles, Clover will find out how that character pulled a prank on that guy who later got a promotion in the pacifist end credits (I need to reply the game to find the screenshot). But basically Clover was upset that their own morals weren't met and gave them a "disapproving look" or smth

"Ti dominants most often feel compelled to speak out when people are acting inconsistent (ie: contradicting themselves) or when people are being illogical from the Ti user’s perspective." I think Clover reacted to the above situation as a Fi user

"Unlike Fe users, Fi users are very blunt and direct. Fi and Te creates a person who is brutally honest about their opinions and feelings. If they don’t like a person, they will let that person know." Not a person in this case, but an example of this are the options we get for Martlet's questionnaire. Clover will have no problem honestly giving her the lowest scores for both questions; we also also get the chance to honestly tell Ceroba that we're not into Starlo's training. There are these cases where they're direct as well:

...and blunt:

they would have given at least a smile or a thumbs up, but no, their honest opinion is their honest opinion

"They appear cold and withdrawn, but tend to warm up as they get to know a person."

Ne (auxiliary) – "Ne views a situation from multiple angles and motivations" I feel like this is best seen in pacifist; this is exactly why Clover decided to give up their soul in the end; they saw all the motivations of the monsters, from many different angles. On the flip side, in the vengeance route, it’s the complete opposite situation: Clover only looks at things from their own pov, completely disregarding others. That’s the thing about the INFP dark side: INFPs become "disillusioned or stuck in their ways." This 100% describes Clover at their worst: stuck in their ways is already explained, while we can say they were disillusioned when even Martlet turned against them/gave up on them (in Genocide). That was enough of a reason for Clover not to feel bad about finishing her off. They never liked her, but they definitely liked her more than anyone else, so I’d say it counts.

"Creative, open-minded, and able to think outside the box" We can say Clover’s creative when they build Axis’ robot companion, solved the two puzzles in the Mines, they’re also most likely into role-playing just like Starlo, based on their clothes (and they seemed into the whole larping thing with him), and how they seem to be into drawing; open-minded, definitely (Clover with everyone; the pacifist route in a nutshell); able to think outside the box (this goes hand in hand with them being creative: I forgot to mention the many creative ways they found to befriend monsters)

"Ne lives in the present like Se does but makes connections to past and future." Imo, this is exactly what Clover does (their sacrifice in the future, and all the things other monsters had said to them in the past; however, they DO interact with the present world at the same time. This is what I meant when I mentioned how they "jump from and connect all 3")

Si (tertiary) – "happy in their comfort zone" Is this Clover? Yeah. Initially, this was their "default" reaction/behavior: with Toriel. They subconsciously became more independent thanks to good old Flowey. As I said, their values led them to take the risk and come into the Underground in the first place, not adventure/excitement (the way I see it). Were they also seeking the truth? Yeah again, they wanted to know the truth behind the whole situation, but I think it had more to do with how they had found the fact that no other humans bothered to look for the kids immoral.

"Si users may draw on their past experiences to guide their present actions and decisions" Example, how the detailed lines they remembered everyone said in true pacifist, influenced them to make the decision to die in the present moment. Or when they asked Ceroba if she would date Starlo, after hearing and remembering Crestina mention his crush on her beforehand, wanting to set them up.

"Si users have a strong memory for past experiences and details" Yep, explained above. Also, dunno if this counts as noticing details, but we can make them beat the Shufflers’ game with ease.

"Si users are typically practical and realistic in their approach to solving problems" The Snowdin mini-quests come to mind (although they use past information here too to figure out what each character needs to be helped). Also, how they fixed the elevator by using a pickaxe (most practical & realistic choice). They’re also pretty rational while dealing with Guardener, and in general, while dealing with enemies.

Te (inferior) – I guess this is why I suspected they could be an ESTJ.

"seen as leaders" By everyone.

"Come up with ideas quickly" Pretty much throughout the game. They’re more low-key about this than ESTJs though.

"Ruthlss and domineering" This is them in vengeance route

"Extraverted Thinkers recognize the emotional content, but then they set it aside to focus on the facts" I feel like this inferior function of theirs is mostly seen in flawed pacifist. They recognized Ceroba’s emotional situation, but chose to be fair and just instead.

"Te users are logical" Recognizing the dangers of the Underground and deciding to stay with Toriel. We can also say it makes sense that Clover attacked those who attacked them first, and finished Ceroba off (Te is what is objective, but from the external world)

"Though they are generally free spirits, they like to have a certain order in their lives. They do enjoy structure, just as long as it does not intrude with their feelings/morals/ethics/etc. They like to be the ones to create the structure, not to have the structure to be created for them."  Vengeance route and Clover’s "mission" come to mind. Basically, the structure is that, whoever Clover sees as morally flawed, gets to die. And they stick to it

tl;dr this picture pretty much explains the way I see Clover's functions in a nutshell ↓

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

I feel bad for Starlo. (pt. 9)

Star's the Papyrus (both are idealistic & seen as naive) of this game (Martlet is another possible parallel), even though he's got similarities with Undyne too. No matter how broken Ceroba seemed he asked himself WHY she did what she did and I think that's SUPER important.

Ceroba didn't do this. Her first instinct was to be harsh (after being harsh with him even BEFORE he attacked Clover):

called his personality "damaged" before this scene

... you never asked yourself WHY he did the whole sheriff act.

.... you never asked WHY he didn't want to grow up. If it was a coping mechanism, if he wanted to help his community in a way he couldn't as a farmer? It was never on her mind.

Yes he has baggage but he's dealing with it all while uplifting others, Ceroba has baggage but is well taken care of by Star and at least has him, he has no one but himself and his optimism to pull him out of negative feelings, and still gets insulted.

Yeah Ceroba's been through stuff but apparently it's been some time since Chujin passed and Kanako fell down, she should have at least started to support Star emotionally like he's been supporting her (sure, he did so with distractions, but as he said "aren't distractions what's best for all of that?" He did his best). Problem is she DIDN'T realise he was ever struggling with self worth and only assumed he was goofing off. Either that or she did nothing about it aka was too occupied with her own problems (which are valid but still... she should have tried at least a little) Cer's character flaw is being too stubborn and devoted to Chujin. She trusted him blindly and wholeheartedly. Everything else came in 2nd place. This is clear as day.

It hurts knowing Ceroba could never respect Starlo the way she still does her husband. Not saying she shouldn't admire Chujin, but the way she sees Star as a goofy manchild whose lifelong passion can go "too far," the way she sees all this Wild East stuff as him "just having fun," the way she thinks that only someone whose brain isn't developed would ever consider dating him just... ticks me off, tbh. That's why I think the guy needs someone who will be gentle and patient with him, even if that other person is going through tough times.

She DID call Starlo the best sheriff she's ever known (honestly the only sweet moment between them in pacifist, but it is very brief, especially in neutral where he just gets cut off; also I hope she was being genuine here) and said how everyone adored him (but hated his persona, which I've already covered: basically they either hated 'North Star' as a whole, which I hope isn't true, or just how excited he was to meet Clover, which makes no sense to me; already covered it as well)

Bonus: Dina didn't know who Star really was or what he looked like, not before the end credits rolled (when he shows up as himself & she's also seen there; makes sense that he finally came clean to her):

So he's literally been playing this role 24/7, ever since she became the bartender; ever since this town started to exist. It's impressive how he could keep up an act AND use this fake accent for so long

Bonus #2: Star was SUPER worried about Clover's safety; that's what REALLY upset him (he cares about that child sm). THAT's what drove him off the edge (unless he naturally has a temper, i don't think this is it tho). Either way, he was way more patient w Ceroba than I think most would have been in that situation. Sure he snapped a few times, but there was a good reason to. He still TRIED to reason with her. Why did he attack? Worried for Martlet & Clover. I honestly think Star's the type to only get super angry if someone he loves is in danger (minus the stuff that happened which led him to cracking)

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

Flaws/imperfections of each main character

because we all have em'.

Dalv

pushes people away

clings so much to how things turned out in the past that he's unwilling to make new memories

as that one sweet corn said if you backtrack, he's a "mopey mope"

deff has OCD

not trusting

not friendly

unwilling to get out of his comfort zone

trusts his own judgement too much

he's literally me. I feel called out... thanks, Dalv. You're awesome ❤️

Martlet

unwilling to get out of her comfort zone

slacker

scatterbrained

bit of a dummy (I feel so bad for saying this; love you Marts! ❤️)

blames herself too much

anxious

not sure if she's depressed, but she DOES lack self-confidence and is a bit awkward at times

REALLY likes material comforts & nice things to the point where it was her main reason (besides not having to work too hard) for keeping the not-so-moral royal guard job (also mentions how she wants to steal jewels from the mines)

unsure of herself and her future

gives too many chances/a bit naive (to geno Clover)

trusts her own judgement too much (that getting a job as the royal guard was a good idea, that geno Clover is good deep down)

Starlo

INSECURE INSECURE INSECURE

doesn't love himself :(

kidnaps a child

overly enthusiastic to the point he literally "started a fire"

reckless (while North Star)

relies so heavily on his social image that he expects it to make him feel worthy (of love, admiration)

hides his quirks

a biiit arrogant (while North Star)

mischievous childish trickster (to Blackjack, maybe… unless Jack's role-playing the role of the "victim"; while North Star)

needs too much external validation

uses distractions to escape negative things/emotions instead of dealing with them

people pleaser

puts too much pressure on himself

ignorant (of many things such as horses and gumballs, but mostly of his and others' true feelings and desires) He just doesn't get that the others weren't having a good time, and that they wanted the old him back. He just doesn't get that all he did, he did because he doesn't like who he is and wants others to love him for his persona. Thankfully he realized it in the end

refuses to accept that he was being too much into this whole thing and instead turns to STATUS STATUS STATUS (more love, more admiration = getting his friends back)

hides his true self from the world

just wants to be cool

naive and foolish (don't even remind me of geno)

my boy's totally not perfect, gotta love him for it :)

P.s: holy heck he's the most flawed of them. Love you sm star 🌟 ❤️

Ceroba

manipulative

liar and hypocrite

pessimistic

blames herself too much

won't forgive (herself) and forget (what she did wrong)

stubborn

emotionally weak (sorry Cer, Star helps ya with this)

emotions and feelings influence her actions too much (praising Chujin even though he didn't win a prestigious award, injects Kanako the second she mentions how Chujin's dream could "come true" if she injects her, willing to brutally hit Martlet and Starlo and potentially kill them just for what she felt she had to do, aka kill Clover)

clings to the past too much/nostalgic of better times instead of making new, happy memories and letting things go (you can do this, Cer ❤️)

everyone

• willingly or unwillingly killed/almost killed a child

• ok guys, I really can't excuse this one. Sorry :(( I love you all tho :))

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

More on Clover's personality/mbti

this one's shorter don't worry

So, I mentioned before how Clover's creative when it comes to a lot of stuff (more than they are grounded), but there's also the fact they can sing (that's how they spare Insomnitot), dance (not as much into it as Bailador, but they CAN dance), make puns (Gun-hat and how they wanted to make puns in the stable in Wild East; idk the exact line) are into drawing (in Axis' office, you'll get a text saying "You wish you could draw that well..."), video games (with Mew Mew) and they even know how to play the harmonica (from the teaser trailer), plus tend to zone out ↓

They constantly kept choosing kindness over what's right.

Those are PERSONAL values they have, that these monsters deserve forgiveness. I really think the inferior Te clashes with dominant Fi in their case. Clover wants to do what's objectively right and just, but at same time their heart is just too pure. They were able to empathise with everyone and get in everyone's shoes (also affectionate but that's a bonus) ↓

there's no change in their kindness from the beginning to end

Like if they were actually in court I don't think they'd act like a "typical" judge and deliver 100% fair consequences. No, that Fi kindness would ALWAYS win, like it did with Star and Ceroba.

Clover's Fi was always there, but differentiates depending on the route. In pacifist, they decided that everyone, in spite of what they objectively did wrong, should be forgiven and understood. In neutral, they decide whose actions were moral enough to get spared, and whose weren't. In geno, instead of killing five monsters, they wipe out anyone THEY think is in their way.

If they were Ti dominant they'd naturally be a lot more rigid and have/show a lot less empathy, imo. The Te inferior is present in geno bc they think they are dealing with the events in the outside world objectively, but the Fi is still there, that's why they don't stop killing: THEY are the one who thinks it should be this way. Clover wants to influence/control the outer world (Te; they don't spend a lot of time dwelling on their actions, unlike Ti users, Clover's a lot more forceful) based on how they subjectively think things should be (still that Fi except that it manifests differently than in pacifist). Clover as a thinker would naturally be more detached from emotions, but they're... they're not. Even in the beginning.

Inferior Te present their Fi opinions like they are objective Te facts - I found this line and it instantly reminded me of geno Clover. "Yeah, I'm right for killing everyone, even though I'm really not"

Clover becomes like a "manager of justice" when in their dark side. You step outta line, you're dead - that's kinda the "structure" I think we're talking about here. Still values over how logically to assess a situation, though. Ceroba calls them naive.

This means that Clover WANTS.... no, ALWAYS WANTED to approach the "missing children" situation like they're in control, but in reality, they were without a clear plan of what to do and how to do it. That's inferior Te.

On the contrary, in the vengance route, they step into their inferior function and take control... but at what cost.

As for their Si, we have the fact Clover remembers their past home life, remembers cramped living conditions, their responsibilities at home, the TV channel they "watched"...

All this stuff from the past contributed to them leaving for the Underground (aka affected their future). I really really don't think Clover has auxiliary Se. That would mean they're usually present-focused. But no, this kid's thought process feels more complex to me. As explained, Se mostly focuses on what's in front of them; Clover, while in the present, can think of the past (their home life), which then influences their future (jumping down Mt. Ebott). And when in the present, they can think of the far future (dying during their mission and therefore never coming back home or becoming an adult, and in the end the potential freedom of monsterkind) and recall the past vividly (all those things their friends told them throughout their journey)

They don't suspect Flowey's malicious, either. And even if some part of them didnt trust Ceroba, Clover never showed it or said anything out loud (not that i remember), and even if they did, they still chose to spare Axis since he is the only thing left of Chujin. That's naive, maybe. But Clover's REALLY REALLY REALLY sweet.

Speaking of Flowey... remember how he would often encourage Clover and tell them to have more confidence and that they "don't have to be scared" and "lean on him for emotional support" and that they should "have some faith in themselves too"? Yeah, that's the aspect of their personality that they had to work on; becoming the leader they were always meant to be.

Their arc feels like going from a scared kid to a great hero. Aka stepping into that inferior Te... the right way.