#i promise i do not discourse much. i am a grown adult

[clefclefairy]

very very quick post on current Fandom Woes that i want to throw out so i can put it out of my head and go do important things (making sword)

1: 'ugh this is so OOC just make OCs if you're going to do this' and how does fandom treat OCs, exactly? do you RT people's OC art? do you call OCs "cringe?" do you ask questions about people's OCs? do you commission art/fic of people's OCs? do you think you're the arbiter of what "in-character" is for an entire fandom?

2. i was there 3000 years ago, gandalf, and so i can say with confidence: "he would not fucking say that" used to be unilaterally applied to any LGBT content. any fucking queer ships would be told "this is OOC, they've never said they were gay in canon!" and if you tried to explain like, basic subtext or the long history of queer-coding to some internet rando they would just call you a stupid fangirl. i'm not saying that's always what is happening now, but i am saying that this is where that attitude can and did lead, and still leads for certain queer headcanons. (try calling a character trans coded. see what happens!)

3. sometimes people just want to have fun. sometimes people just make jokes that do not align with their view of the canon characterization for fun. sometimes people just like to mash their current favorites against a thing they like or find funny. acting like this is killing fandom rather than simply personally annoying you is ludicrous.

4. again, not every post with this attitude is saying this, but given the current social climate surrounding AI art/AI chatbots/AI fanfic and the complete and utter disdain for fanfic writers and artists, "why even write this it's so OOC" feels very...entitled. you don't know what emotions, life experiences, formative media, styles of interpretation, and methods of critique/analysis someone brings to any given character. everyone brings themselves to the table of fandom and that's supposed to be a good thing. (coda: there are some ways people can willfully misinterpret characterization and be incorrect. people can also just be missing necessary context in their analysis. people just might not be good at analysis and interpretation. piss on the poor, etc., but outside of malicious willful misinterpretation, this isn't like. evil. you can just block and move on.)

5. i don't care if a fic is OOC to my personal interpretation of the character. i really, truly don't. i hit the back button and move on. you don't know why someone writes or feels the way they do about characters, and sometimes people don't want to write OCs! they want to process whatever's going on in their life with their favorite characters! and that is fine! even if it doesn't make sense to anyone but them! even if it isn't good! fanfic and fanart needing to be good is bullshit. you can't and shouldn't try to quality control free writing and art like you would professional work. (coda for the piss on the poor website: this does not include malicious hate speech and imagery. it DOES include topics you personally find unappealing. not everything is for you.)

6. fandom is a collaborative community experience and not everything is to your taste. you don't know why someone writes or creates or draws what they do, or why they're doing it. have a private circle of friends to bitch about stuff you don't like together. trying to make other people behave in ways you don't find 'cringe' or write and draw what you want, for you, isn't happening. block and move on, mute and blacklist, use your back button on fanfics, and mind your own business.

[bookishblogging]

Homophobia and Overcompensating (tw: mentions of homophobia)

Something I have noticed as I’ve gotten older is I have become jaded to the world around me in regards to my sexuality- and ultimately anything political (not that sexual preference is a political issue but they run along the same spheres). This is going to be a long post but I promise I come full circle and I’m not just ranting but please don’t feel obliged to read

I’m not sure if jaded is the correct word, perhaps: indifferent, tolerant, dare I say accepting? I have grown up in the South my entire life, have known I was lgbt since early middle school (honestly I was even like that when I was younger, I constantly said I never wanted to get married because I never wanted to be with a man, and would wish I could marry the woman instead) and eventually deduced I was a lesbian my freshmen year of high school. I have had a very very very long uphill battle with accepting my queerness. I grew up Christian as well, so I constantly had people around me condemning my ‘biggest dirty sin.’ I lived in terror every day, and am ever so thankful my entire family has supported me after I came out a few weeks ago (well beyond my days as a freshmen in high school). I would beg to god to change me, to fix me, tried dating men and put myself in very dangerous situations with those men to try and change who I was at my core. Even after i had allegedly “came to terms” with my sexuality when I was Christian, I was constantly having to justify the validity of my existence to not only other Christians, to myself. I would read the Bible and annotate the fuck out of it, searching for answers as to why the very people who shared my loving and beautiful faith were also using it as kindling in the pyre of their hate. I was driven to insanity, page after page, question after question never fully answered. My shelf of doubts was overcrowded and about to collapse under the weight of my finite mind trying to grasp the infinite nature of divinity. This eventually led to the deconstruction of my Christianity and much much later adoption of Hellenic polytheism. It has been a rough road but I’m thankful for the lessons I have been taught in magnanimity. I’m going to shift gears a bit but I will bring back up this point later in this post.

Ever since middle school, I’ve been very involved in politics and downright volatile to anyone who had different beliefs than I did. While a large portion of people were the same way, that wasn’t an excuse for my aggression and lack of a filter. In my age group, I was constantly met with others who shared my unbridled passion for debating politics with whomever crosses my path. This went both ways, with people who agreed and disagreed with my opinions; and I would start arguments and be so hateful in my remarks. We would essentially be in a pissing match until one of us got too tired and conceded, but god forbid you were the one to give in. I got some sort of adrenalin rush from these political spheres, and both adults and adolescents alike were drunk on civil unrest. I carried this toxic view into my high school years and legitimately thought less of those who had different political beliefs than I did.

Now here is the full circle moment I’m sure you’ve been just absolutely dying on the end of your seat to hear. I now can look back and understand I did this to try and both validate and defend myself and my sexuality from scrutiny- especially because I was already doing that myself. Ultimately, I was so hard on myself and did and said so many horrible things to myself in regards to my sexuality in an effort so that nobody else could cause as much pain as I caused myself. It was a defense mechanism, albeit a shitty one. And not at all an excuse for my political extremism. But as I’ve grown older and came to my above realization, I realized I don’t find enjoyment in political discourse anymore, I don’t feel this need to argue with every living soul that walks the face of the earth. Be it maturity or my acceptance of my sexuality, I have really become averse to trying to argue my sexuality. The validity of my existence isn’t something up for argument. All I did was feed into the homophobia and give them what they wanted: a reaction. I used to seek out homophobic people and go off on them, but now I can respectfully exist among them because I have risen above the absolute insanity that it was to argue about my right to exist as a lesbian. I was searching for their validity and their acceptance even though deep down I knew I wouldn’t get it. And I know this isn’t a problem with just me, it’s a problem within the LGBTQ+ community as a whole. A lot of people within our community talk about certain members of the LGBTQ+ community (more often than not the trans community) as if they are “dampening the image of the community as a whole” or “making us look stupid”. While those statements are problematic on the surface level because you should never shame someone on their sexual or gender identity, much less if you are APART of the community you’re shaming. This comes from a need to get validation from non-lgbtq+ people and set yourself apart from the crowd as to not be grouped in when they belittle queer folk. But this doesn’t separate you from the group, it pushes you more deeply into the hands of hate. Not only are you inviting others to mock your community because you yourself are mocking it, but you are tearing down a quintessential part of yourself that you cannot change whether you like it or not.

All of that to say, i will never argue about the validity of me being my true, authentic self to anyone ever again. I have been brought some of the most peace I have ever know by coming to terms with the fact that homophobic people exist and are bound to cross my path every now and again. It has been a very very long journey, and a lot of backwards steps, but this peace is something I have never known before and it’s liberating. It’s hard to start just not giving homophobia the time of day, it hurts at first, but then you get better and learn to reach out to your support system. You learn that life is more than the four walls of your childhood home and the streets you’ve known since you were little were nothing more than a few names and places. You begin to realize that your life truly begins when you are able to fully let yourself be authentically and truthfully real. Life isn’t what you know, it’s what you don’t know, and there is so much beauty in the unknown if you let yourself follow it.

[imatechbummerliketomholland]

You are my world. you three are my world now - h.h

hello there! I'm back ! Sorry if it tooks so long, i have a lot of work during these holiday. I hope you like this little request. I didn't have time to be proofread (but a big thank you to@petersasteria who is always there to support me!). Remember that my native language is French, so don't be so mean if i made mistakes!

Feel free to like, share, comment and tell me what you think. Send me a message if you want to be added to the taglist for my next work!

Word count: 2300 Warning: angst, mention of pregnancy, small mention of blood, mention of placental abruption Pairing : harry holland Request: yes!

ღღღ

You didn't expect to be pregnant with twins at your age. The announcement of your pregnancy had also surprised more than one. Despite her support, Nikki Holland had still given the discourse on the importance of safe sex to her son. But Harry had given a more than mature speech in defense of both of you. He was able to prove to his family and to yours that you were ready and that the decision to continue the pregnancy was not rash.

You were now at the half of your eighth month and nothing could stand in the way of your happiness.

Nothing except maybe this.

Nikki had offered to have lunch with her this afternoon. Despite his work as a photographer, no longer having the company of his four children - since three of them left the family cocoon to live their own life as grown-up adults- weighed heavily on her. You accepted with pleasure. Harry, who was editing his third short film, had left you this morning to go to the edit suite, not without checking that you were okay. So, you joined Nikki at the restaurant. You shine in your long floral maternity dress. In the middle of the meal, you felt a violent contraction.

At almost eight months pregnant, it was no surprise that you could feel twins’ movements. You winced a little at the pain and your mother-in-law put a reassuring hand on your arm.

"Are you alright, darling?" she asking, a little bit worried.

"Yeah, yeah. They've just been in great shape for a few days now."

You apologized and went to the bathroom, struggling to cope with the pain of your contractions. When you noticed that your underwear was soaked with blood, your heart rate increased. You suddenly realized that a series of symptoms corresponded to what you had dreaded early in your pregnancy: the nausea that had occurred last night, the violent contractions since this morning and now the blood. Rather alerting signals that suggested a placental abruption. The obstetrician told you that this was a possible risk since you were having a twin pregnancy. You started to cry and panic for several minutes that Nikki ended up knocking on the bathroom door.

"Darling, is everything good in there?" she asked you with her sweet and worried voice.

"Could you come in please" you sobbed.

"Sure, darling. Are you sure you're feeling okay?"

She stepped carefully into the disabled cabin that you had used for space reasons. Nikki immediately noticed your state of stress. And you just told her everything in strangled sobs. She put a hand behind your back and gave you a very serious look.

"We have to go to the ER. We're going right away."

"I want Harry"

"Don't worry, I'll call him on the way"

And you haven't wasted a minute. Nikki simply left her phone number and table number at the counter before you got into your car. Dom will retrieve Nikki one's later. Holland family been known from the restaurant, the staff were comprehensive about your leaving without paid the bill. When you arrived at the hospital, the nurses greeted you directly and wasted no time either. You were taken to the operating room without being able to get your boyfriend's support.

☙♥❧

Harry arrived within fifteen minutes of receiving the call from his mother. No doubt he would receive a speeding penalty ticket later. He looked like a madman, mortified by worry. He was a bundle of nerves and sarcasm. Her mother was standing by the reception desk, waiting for her. She looked anxious. Tom was there too, trying to contact their father on his phone. When Dom finally picked up, the oldest Holland brother announced the urgency. Harry was shaking with worry.

"What happened mom?"

"I don't really know, baby. We were at the restaurant and the babies kicked. She went to the bathroom and when she didn't come back, I went after her. That's where she asked me to come into the bathroom and you know the rest. I called you straight after that. " Nikki explained, trying to get the stress out of her.

"Oh my god… where is she now?"

"The medical staff took her for surgery. I had to wait here. I couldn't go with her, baby. I’m so sorry."

"Ok ... Ok, I guess I have to wait here. Hope she's okay. God, please make her be alright."

They all made their way to the operating theater hallway for the public to wait for more information. Tom was still on the phone with his father, explaining that it would be better if he stayed at home with Paddy so as not to overcrowd the waiting room. He promised his father that they would all give news as soon as possible. A nurse in a surgical gown entered ten minutes later.

“Who's the father of miss y/l/n's babies?”

“I am. Harry Holland, I’m the father!” he almost screamed and cried at the same time.

“Come with me”

Nikki stood up cautiously and walked over to the nurse. Harry was ready to follow the nurse without giving any further information to his family.

"Excuse me. Can you give us more information on her condition?" Nikki asked

"Sure. We had an emergency caesarean. The babies are fine but there seem to be some complications with the mother. The surgeon is taking care of her."

"Is she going to be okay?" Harry asked hastily.

"She's losing a lot of blood but we're doing our best. Now please follow me." She said to curly one.

☙♥❧

Harry followed her to the nursery. His heart was pounding in mixed emotions. He was so impatient to meet his babies but at the same time he was worried about you. What if you don't survive from the complications? What was to become of him? Would he be able to live without you? Would he be a good father?

His last question vanished when he saw his two little babies in the incubator. Your twins had arrived about fifteen, almost a month earlier than expected, it was normal that they were in an incubator. Harry was going to have to make sure they put on weight. After filling out a few papers, one of the nurses offered to do some skin-to-skin contact with the twins so that they could get to know the three of them. Harry could not but be impatient with this and once prepared he settled into a seat. He was overcome with emotion, understanding how his parents had felt when Sam and him were born. He completely forgets the time, spending several minutes with his sons, one after the other. Harry knew he would place all his love in the two little beings he had taken turns holding in his arms. He was ready to lift mountains, cross the tides. Part of his mind was on you and he truly hoped he could go through life's trials with you. May your family experience all the times they deserve.

The nurse who had brought him to the nursery go up to him with a half-smile. She was sorry to disturb him during this privileged father-son moment.

"Your ... hm ... miss (y/l/n) is in the recovery room. You can go see her now"

Harry's heart burst with relief. He let out a sigh he didn't know he was holding back. The very new father nodded before placing his son in the nurse's arms so that she could put him back in the incubator. He decided to go find his family who had been waiting too long now. When he entered the waiting room, his mother and brother were still seated. Tom had his elbows on his knees, the phone in his hand. He seemed to be talking to someone. When the actor noticed his brother's presence, he spoke to him.

"Hey mate, Sam's here. Wanna talk to him? What's up? Does y/n's alright? And the twins?"

"Too much question. Give me Sam first!"

But the result was exactly the same. Sam asked the same questions as Tom and Harry winced as he tried to answer consensually.

"Hello to you too, brother. The twins are fine. I swear to God Sam, they look like a mini version of us. Two sons by the way ... y/n is fine, she's in the recovery room, I'm going see her right after that. I wanted to talk to mom and Tom first. "

"Glad to know I'm the last to know." Sam informed sarcastically.

"Hey, I was going to call you but I had to, you know ... go meet my sons. Father's job, it seems."

Sam chuckled behind his phone screen as Harry smirked in a mischievous and petty manner. He ended the call with his twin and turned to his mother and Tom. Nikki made her understand that she had heard, she seemed relieved that you were okay.

"Hey, before I go see y/n ... you want to see your grandsons ... and you, your nephew and godson, asshole."

"Harry, language" said Nikki.

"Of course I want to see my godson, stupid"

"Tom!"

The two brothers smile at each other. Just because one became a father and the other was a movie star, didn't mean they were going to change their ways. It was also their way, both of them, to decompress events. Nikki sighed in annoyance but kept quiet, too happy to meet, even only through a window, her first grandchildren. After a brief walk in front of the nursery, Harry announced that he was going to find you, leaving his family to admire your twins. They seemed so impatient to meet them in person but knew they were going to have to wait while you woke up.

☙♥❧

Harry entered the recovery room and walked over to your bed. You seemed to have already woken up from your artificial sleep. He grabbed your hand to give you the support you needed. A feeling of emptiness was felt in you, your gaze landed on your stomach, flatter than you had seen in recent months. Your eyes widened in panic but the reassuring pressure of Harry's hand drew your attention to him.

"They are fine, my love. They are fine. They are in an incubator in the nursery."

You burst into tears. The emotions being so strong.

"I'm so sorry Harry. I'm sorry ..."

“Hey… hey… you don't have to. You're okay… the twins are okay. And I still love you, I love you more than ever."

"Have you seen them?"

"Yes ... ugly like their father" he joked

You chuckled with a few more tears in your voice. You knew he didn't mean it, but humor was Harry's best way to decompress, and it worked on you too.

"My family is here. You scared the hell out of them. I think Sam was about to order a flight to kick your ass."

You chuckled again. It was so impressive to see the love that reigned in this family. You could never have asked for a better way to build your own family. Harry leaned over to kiss you.

"I love you, y/n. You are my world. you three are my world now"

"I love you more, Harry."

You stayed a few more days before you could get out of the hospital. You had decided to introduce the twins after their own discharge from the hospital. That's why, after almost a month of going back and forth to the nursery, you could finally bring your twins home. So you organized a little visit to Harry's parents.

☙♥❧

The sun was shining on London and you squeezed the doorknob of one of the maxi-cozy, Harry carrying your second son as you opened the door to the Holland family home. You were amazed at the ease with which Harry assumed his role as father. He was doing so well that you fell in love with him again.

"Is there anyone here?" He asked

"We're all in the garden, buddy!" Tom said

"You are obviously in the kitchen, dummy"

"For god's sake, Harry. Come into this fucking garden and let us see the twins!"

You let out a frank laugh as you mentally noted that you were going to have to have a conversation with Harry and his brothers about the vocabulary they were using.

You are therefore entering the garden. You noticed right away that Sam had come all the way from Scotland. Harry must have organized this with him too. You smiled, Nikki rushed over to help you with the change bags and you thanked him.

"So where is my godson?" Tom asked in the same way he did at the FFH premiere when he was looking for Jake Gyllenhal.

"Where's mine?" Sam asked too.

You approached Sam, putting the maxycosy on the table to unbuckle the seat belt and take your son in your arms. Harry was doing the same with your second baby.

"I'm happy to introduce you y/s/n"

"And there's y/s/n(2)." Harry added, so proud.

Everyone raved about the twins as you wipe away a tear, happy and proud. You were so moved by the love that reigned. Harry came to kiss you on the forehead, you closed your eyes, appeased by his gesture. The world could only turn better in his company.

"It's family portrait time!" Nikki said, her camera in her hands. "Tom, please get closer to your brother. Sam, stand next to y / n"

You all followed Nikki's instructions, who couldn't be more than happy to capture this important moment, bringing her work and family life together. You all smiled as you and Harry were in the center of the photo, carrying your twins in your arms. And at that moment, you were sure that your life could not be more beautiful than at this moment.

[missmeinyourbones]

there’s been some age discourse circulating on anime tiktok about older folks liking minor anime characters and how they SHOULDNT simp for them and i wanted to ask (1) what did you think about that? and (2) we see how often adults write smut about fictional characters that are minors so ummm how does that work?

imo in general since a lot of underage characters are drawn to be REALLY attractive or rather older, if i like them??? i like them.... but i don’t necessarily come on the internet to openly make sexualizing comments or nothing like that so respectful simping = a okay. like i want to give xyz a hug and a poptart and they’re the cutest patootest person on the planet type vibes.

as i aged, with a lot of new animes like demon slayer and jjk, i simply do not find MYSELF attracted ??? to the minors like inosuke and megumi, who would have been my general favorite characters if i was 15 bc that is how all my favorite characters looked and acted like but stuff that ive grown up with and characters i aged (i was 15, same age as kageyama when i watched hq!!) with are still going to be like?? VERY pedestal heavy & ppl i still hyperfixate over since i am still very attached to them even if i don’t say a word online about them. i am kind of scared of being attacked for liking them :(

but EVEN WITH FICS??? like lol please let me READ them in peace i promise it’ll be between me and my phone but duuude i think actively reading fics about me x fictional character is insane /jk so let me live. i think it’s interesting though because yeah okay chara x reader is bad but people writing smut about underage characters in ships (kagehina as an example) and then ppl are okay with it.... ALSO not to mention how much doujins are made again with the minor characters and suggestive content..... but yeah food for thought

this has been sitting in my inbox for a few days bc ive been trying to think about how to properly gather my thoughts on it so if anyone wants to hear me rant about media literacy and fictional minors you can click below :)

i think people often forget that fiction is just that—fiction. its fake. yes we can pour our hearts and souls into loving certain characters or shows but at the end of the day they as "people" are lines on paper. they do not exist. i think the lines are extremely blurred when it comes to stuff like the age debate because people get weird w/ minors being written about or thought of in a certain way etc.

personally, when i think of a character (especially applied to noncanon universes) i think about them because i like the idea of them. i match them in my head to be fitting to me and my personal character (age included!!!!) so like yes i love canon megumi and his character, but when i write about megumi and "simp" for him in my head hes not 15. hes tailored to my personal demographic and interest (if that makes sense)

i think that people think too much into the whole fiction thing because its literally fake....like people get cancelled for writing FAKE SCENARIOS about FAKE PEOPLE because of their age. fiction is meant to be fake! its meant to be consumed knowing it is not real, and to explore hypotheticals and use your imagination to your own advantage

with that being said....in no way shape or form do i condone pedophilia or illegal age relationships. i think that people need to stop worrying about FICTIONAL age gaps and focus on the actual real life minors being groomed, harassed, assaulted, etc. because this is something that happens in real life to real people. worrying about fictional scenarios that will not be real no matter how hard you try is pointless when the reality of the situation is that real adults being interested in real minors is the real issue.

idk if i worded this nicely or if it makes sense but this is just my opinion on it <3 they’re literally not real and we should be focusing on protecting actual human real life minors <3

[ooops-i-arted]

Child development/Dad-thoughts for Season 2 Episode 8???

Poor little guy.  He has to be so terrified and traumatized by the time we see him again - ripped away from his father by scary bad droids, threatened by Gideon and his scary black sword, weakened from using his powers and blood loss, and we don’t even know if he was awake for any medical procedures that surely would have involved his autonomy, personhood, and fears being completely ignored let alone scary ouchy needles/medical tools.  It’s hard to gauge how he’s doing since we don’t have the entire picture of what he experienced, although we can assume it had to be terrifying.  But when we see him again, he’s patiently sitting by Gideon, apparently having complete faith that Dad will come save him and defeat the bad guy.

I do feel this episode hugely dropped the ball by not showing us Grogu being reunited with Din once Gideon is defeated and Din unshackles him.  It’s such an important missing piece - last we saw Grogu was so terrified he was giving in the Dark Side and harming stormtroopers, then he’s sitting (I infer) paralyzed with fear/scared enough to be quiet and still because of Gideon, and next we see he’s tucked in Din’s arms again.  How was he feeling to be reunited with his dad?  Did Din comfort and reassure him (it would be ooc for Din not to at this point imo)?  Did he feel better knowing that Dad came for him after all?  Sure, we can infer all that, but it’s a big emotional beat that should’ve been present because it impacts The Big Grogu Moment we get later:  Grogu choosing to go with Luke.

I’m not gonna lie, I was really surprised the show went this direction since it seemed like they were setting up Din choosing to keep Grogu as his own and I have my reservations about the story going this way tbh.  But I think Luke taking Grogu (for now) does work.

Season 2 Grogu is a much happier, well-adjusted, and more mature child than Season 1 Grogu.  Season 1 Grogu was quiet, subdued; he had moments of comfort or testing limits but overall generally made himself less noticeable and was hesitant to indicate his needs or wants to anyone, even Din.  Season 2 Grogu is a much more average child; he knows he can indicate what he needs to Din and it will be provided for, even something as the simple emotional comfort of uppies; he chatters more often and isn’t afraid to be more curious, more defiant, and just express himself.  In Season 1 Grogu didn’t even ask for food - probably thinking he’d be ignored - he just caught that frog by himself; Season 2 Grogu has a loving dad who tells him “I see you’re hungry, we’ll get you some food.”  Season 1 Grogu generally just follows Din around, not wanting him out of his sight but rarely requesting interaction until the end of the season but waiting for it to be offered instead; Season 2 Grogu is always running to Din the second he needs anything.  Does trauma magically go away?  No, Grogu is still affected.  But he’s clearly healing and growing under Din’s care, and having a stable adult in the child’s life is one of the biggest things that can reduce a child being affected by Adverse Childhood Experiences.

Grogu seems to know who Luke is, or at least recognize him as a Jedi.  My guess is he did connect with Luke during the Scotty Beam Me Up scene.  So it’s not like a stranger showed up to take him away, this is someone he has “met” and “talked to”.  And since Grogu has the Force, he can sense for sure that this is a nice person and someone who truly can teach him, which eliminates some of the guesswork you usually get when a kid meets their new teacher/a stranger.  So while it looks to Din like some random guy just showed up for his kid, there was more stuff going on below the surface that Din (and the audience) didn’t really see because It’s The Force.  So it isn’t like Grogu is being sent off with the first strange Jedi who rolls up (like on Corvus).

Grogu certainly doesn’t act afraid of Luke or anything other than friendly.  The only issue is separating from his beloved dad.  Grogu will not go unless the person he loves and trusts most in the entire world says it’s okay for him to do so.  He goes up to the screen and almost seems like he wants Din to look and show him “This is an okay guy.  Look he kills things just like you, Dad.” before pointing and trying to get the adults to open the door.  And I definitely got the impression Grogu is calling or otherwise trying to commune with Luke through the Force, telling him “Hey we’re on the bridge, come save us and meet my Dad.”  So Grogu is open and willing to start interacting with Luke - as long as it’s okay with Din.  (And Din in turn trusts Grogu enough to open the doors when Grogu says it’s cool, this guy is okay.)

The #1 thing that makes Luke taking Grogu work for me is that everyone’s consent is involved.  Grogu may be a small child who still needs an adult guardian and guidance in his life but that doesn’t mean he should be carted around without taking his feelings into consideration.  This isn’t like a few episodes ago, where Din tried to hand Grogu over without really seeing if Grogu or Ahsoka were okay with it.  Luke addresses Grogu directly and treats him like a person, accepting that Grogu needs to be involved in this decision; Luke also addresses Din’s worries and even speaks up on Grogu’s behalf (”He wants your permission”).  Grogu is clearly open to the idea of going with Luke - if he didn’t want to, Luke would certainly say so - but also wants to make sure Din is okay with it.  And while Din balks at first, once he realizes that Luke can offer Grogu the training he can’t, he gives Grogu permission to go and even gives him a special good-bye so that Grogu knows how much he means to Din.  And the face-touch seemed to me, at least, to be Grogu saying, Don’t worry Dad, it’s okay to try and reassure him.  And Din tells him in turn “Don’t be afraid.”  The separation is hard, but Din and Grogu both realize that Grogu needs to be trained to use his powers safely.  They’re willing to do what’s right, even when it’s hard, which takes a lot of emotional maturity.  Grogu has certainly grown indeed.

Realistically this probably should’ve taken a lot more time - Din going with Luke to help transition Grogu - but 1. this is a tv show and 2. this is still better than small children usually get in media anyway, since people tend to lump anyone under age 5 as “cute and/or annoying prop for the adult characters.”  Also, we the audience know Luke (the real one, not the OOC Rian Jackoff version).  We know Luke is compassionate and kind and will take good care of Grogu.  If Grogu is troubled by leaving his beloved dad, Luke will do his best to guide Grogu through it, and I personally think that if Grogu ultimately decided this wasn’t for him and wanted Dad?  Luke would pack him up in the X-wing and fly him right to Din.  So ymmv but Luke training Grogu works for me and I think Grogu is in good hands.

I don’t wanna super go into The Discourse but since I know it’s gonna come up in the fandom and since I am a big Jedi fan, I’ll briefly address the whole No Attachments/Jedi Attitudes thing:

No Attachments refers to No Possessiveness, not You Can’t Love Anyone.  The Jedi don’t discourage compassion and love and even family ties, just the whole I’d Commit Genocide For My Loved One (looking at you, Anakin).  This post specifically refutes the comments Filoni made in the Making the Mandalorian show and goes into it way better than I could, if you’re interested.  I’ll just pull out this George Lucas quote: “But [Anakin] has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation.”  So Grogu loving and caring about Din isn’t an issue - it’s only an issue when he’s willing to harm and endanger others over it (like choking Cara) or when he becomes so afraid he lashes out without thinking (the stormtrooper free-for-all).

Which is why it’s so important Grogu be trained by someone who knows and understands the power he has.  Even if Grogu still decides not to be a Jedi, he needs to know how to control himself and his power so he doesn’t hurt anyone.

Jedi are allowed contact with family and embrace their original cultures as shown throughout Star Wars media.  There’s no reason to think Luke will snatch Grogu and never let him and Din see each other again even if Luke did follow the prequel Jedi completely (which he didn’t in Legends anyway, which honestly makes more sense to me since so much Jedi knowledge was lost/destroyed by the Empire).

People have always been allowed to leave the Jedi Order.  If Grogu or Din decide “Nope, can’t do this, I want him back” Luke would 100% support them making a decision that works for both of them.

We follow Anakin and Revan because they’re interesting characters and because conflict makes good stories.  The Jedi Order didn’t work for them but most Jedi seem pretty well-adjusted so... I don’t tend to think Anakin is really the baseline we should be going by, y’know?  Grogu has past trauma but he’s been with people who care for him and listen to him.  And not to knock Din at all, but Luke being able to communicate with Grogu is a huge advantage and will actually probably be really good for Grogu.  So I think Grogu is in good hands and won’t be Ruined Forever by training as a Jedi.

And of course Din says they’ll meet again.  He promised.  (And Din & Grogu are Disney’s chief moneymaking duo these days, you want to make your audience worry about your dream team, not break them up permanently.)  So I think Grogu will be reunited with his beloved dad.  And while the parting was certainly heartbreaking, for now he’s in good hands who will help him continue to grow and thrive.

[emblemxeno]

Interesting to see some semblance of Soleil discourse again. I hated her when i played fates, and was genuinly surprised that people really loved her. Do you think a lot of her shittier aspects were from Fates' shoddy translation, or was she always sort of bad?

Sorry for this taking so long! I figured I might as well make this a sort of definitive post about Soleil since I talk about her a lot, so I put some more research and effort into it than I initially planned.

Soleil’s writing does have a lot of differences between the Japanese version and localization, but I have many, many issues with both.

Japanese Soleil

Soleil in the Japanese version of Fates is, to put it simply, a train wreck. As we know, her defining trait is her love of girls. However, with Soleil it goes past attraction and flirting into outright predatory behavior. 

In many of her Japanese supports, Soleil creeps around girls, be it generic girls off-screen, or her female support partners. She hits on her mother in their support, she plans to sneak behind girls and embrace them out of nowhere in her support with Ignatius, and she harasses Ophelia and planned to get a better look at the latter’s figure in the tents when they switched bodies.

But the absolute worst was her Japanese support with Forrest. 

Basically, she’s chasing Forrest around because she’s convinced he’s a girl, despite him telling her over and over that he isn’t. Soleil is extra creepy in this one, saying things like “I can’t hold myself back anymore” and “I won’t do anything bad, so just give in.” Forrest goes so far as to even compare her to a wild animal stalking its prey.

Forrest then tells Soleil once again that he’s a boy, and what does she do? She asks him to prove it by getting naked and bathing with her. Forrest, of course, refuses again. Soleil then finds out from others around camp that Forrest was telling the truth; but she still can’t keep her urges down and keeps making unwanted advances and touches towards him.

That entire support is extreme sexual harassment. It is one of the worst supports I have ever read, especially since it’s played for laughs and it can later advance into an actual relationship between them. Treehouse did realize how bad this support was, and changed it from the ground up into something completely different, which is one of the very few things I will thank them for.

Now, localized Soleil is another beast entirely. Before going into my issues with her localized version, I’ll explain the context behind her trope.

A History Lesson

Soleil’s character at its core is based on the Class S trope. Class S is a Japanese term describing romantic friendships between girls. It’s origin and popularity is owed to things like western women’s literature (such as Little Women) being translated for Japanese audiences back in the early 20th century and the all-women Takarazuka Revue theater being established; these helped cultivate feelings of sisterhood and a sense of romance for young female audiences, especially since most schools at the time in Japane kept boys and girls separate. While there was a decline in the Class S genre after Japanese schools became more co-ed, it has made a resurgence in popularity ever since the late 90′s with light novels like Maria-sama ga Miteru.

Class S had a rather big impact on Japanese society, where it was actually expected to happen and treated as something wonderful for these kinds of close friendships to develop between young girls.

However. These aren’t treated as real romantic relationships. They’re seen as nothing more than a phase. After adolescence, girls are expected to ‘mature’ or ‘graduate’ in a sense, into a real relationship with a man. To still have Class S relationships with other girls when you’re supposed to be in a “real” relationship is seen as a sign of immaturity.

Soleil Herself

So what does this mean with Soleil? Lots of her supports in Japanese have other characters being bewildered or even annoyed by her continued love for girls, because “she’s technically an adult now, shouldn’t she have grown out of that phase?” 

Shigure gets surprised that she’s trying to learn how to sing to impress girls. F!Corrin wonders why she won’t give up her mindset already. Soleil gets jealous of Asugi’s popularity with girls and childishly tries to imitate him. Sophie says she doesn’t have time for Soleil’s antics because the former is trying to be a mature, devoted knight. Ophelia is frustrated that they can’t be “normal” friends instead of Soleil chasing her around and proclaiming her love.

They treat her obsession/love for girls as something childish for an adult woman like her to still have, much like Japanese society does. Soleil is Class S.

Soleil does actually get a chance to technically grow out of this phase, much like adult women are expected to. She ‘graduates’ into adulthood once she becomes romantically involved with her male romance options in the Japanese version; a “real” relationship.

As a gay man, you can probably guess how I feel about this trope. While it has had impact on helping Japan ease up on its more conservative beliefs and lots of Class S media has been created by actual queer women (like Nobuko Yoshiya), it’s still not a great feeling when same sex relationships are basically treated as not real or just a phase in someone’s life. It sucks, especially when I think the Japanese Rhajat/F!Corrin support is one of best in Fates. But enough about me, what does this have to do with localized Soleil?

Where The Localization Fumbled

Since she was already getting her fair share of controversy thanks to the many incorrect reports of conversion therapy during her support with M!Corrin, Treehouse decided to go the whole mile and rewrite some aspects of her character. This included removing the Class S aspect of her, and adding in a line from Laslow (as well as her roster description) that basically confirms she’s bisexual.

Except... they messed it up. They made her apparently bisexual, but they removed the romantic aspect of almost all of her S supports, all of which are dudes. Instead, most of her S supports result in promises of friendship or partnership of some kind. The only romantic S supports she has in the localization are with M!Corrin because Avatar privilege, and Forrest, which can still kind of be taken as platonic.

This doesn’t make sense. Why go out of your way to make Soleil bisexual, but remove her romantic supports with dudes? Her wlw side isn’t suddenly erased if she were to marry a dude, what’s the deal here? Did two different people have a hand in this and just didn’t communicate? Did one intend to make her a lesbian and the other wanted her to be bi? 

This is a huge inconsistency and fumble on Treehouse’s part, one of their biggest. Hell, besides that, they didn’t even remove all of her creepy aspects either; she still creeps on girls in her Ignatius support (she now plans to pinch them instead of embrace them from behind), and while her support with Ophelia was toned down, it still isn’t great. Why go so halfway on this, especially since she’s the most controversial character in the game?

Conclusion & Overview

So yeah, those are my thoughts about Soleil. Her Japanese characterization is a predatory mess and based on a trope which I am not fond of whatsoever, while her localized characterization is only somewhat better as a person and is plagued by a whole slew of new writing problems because her bisexuality just wasn’t done correctly by Treehouse.

Which honestly? It makes me kind of sad. Soleil has a lot of good things about her. I like her shamelessness, her confidence. Her shyness is basically an inverse of Olivia’s, where the latter is shy all the time except when dancing whereas Soleil is only shy and insecure when dancing; it’s a neat full circle for the entire family line. She has a couple of great supports too, like with Laslow and Kiragi. Her design is adorable, she’s a good unit, female mercenaries are always a plus, and her new voice actress in Heroes is one of my favorites. 

It’s just everything else is... bleh. 

I don’t dislike her as much as I did a few months ago, because looking over her supports again endeared her to me a little, but unfortunately she still has too many things about her that I hate for me to say anything better than that.

[antimatterpod]

Transcript - 72. What About Manperson?

This transcript is SO LARGE that the first eight attempts to share it broke Tumblr. (Tumblr, sweetheart, it’s a plain text file, if Usenet and dial-up could handle it, I’m sure you can cope.)

You can listen to the original episode here.

Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace, hosted by Anika and Liz. This week, we're taking a trip back to 1977 to discuss a write up of a panel on 'feminism in Treklit'.

Liz: And I pushed for this one because I promised us [an episode about] zines, and I had misremembered where the zine archive was. And then I stumbled across this essay, and it was so interesting and wild, and I figured we could probably get some discussion out of it.

Anika: Absolutely. I just want to start by saying that 'Treklit' is the cutest little word ever.

Liz: I know!

Anika: 'Treklit'. I love it so much.

Liz: And there's no, "Oh, no, we mustn't call it literature. It's just fan fiction" about it. Because there were no tie-in novels back then, there were just a handful of novelizations and so forth. So go for it, ladies!

Anika: Really bad ones, too.

Liz: Yeah, yeah.

Anika: I've read those. They're bad.

Liz: The panelists in this discussion were Sharon Ferraro, who was a zine publisher, fic writer and con organizer, and Jean Lorrah, a fic writer, novelist and editor, who would go on to write tie-in fiction, including The Vulcan Academy Murders and the TNG novel Survivors, which we discussed in our tie-in fiction episode. And this panel took place at SekwesterCon in 1976. It was tape-recorded by one fan and written up by the [convention] organizers for a zine.

Anika: Which is also adorable.

Liz: I know! And it sounds like just the whole room got into it. And it was so interesting! I can only imagine the drama if this panel was held today, because they sit down and start calling out authors and fics by name and title. And one of the authors stands up and argues back. And it's just wildly interesting, and a snapshot of fandom, and fic writing fandom, at the time.

Anika: Amazing. You put that note, you know, "Can you imagine if this panel was held today," and I was thinking about it, I was like, it sort of is, but it's in social media and in comments.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: But like, even there, there's not really so much of a -- there's a lot of discourse, you know how we use that word now, "discourse", sort of to mean something completely different than what it actually means.

But if there's that there's still sort of this, etiquette to it, I would say. If someone leaves you a nasty comment on a fic and you didn't ask for it, everybody will come in and say, "That was inappropriate, you shouldn't have done that."

And even online, if you're going to say, "Oh, I've just read this horrible Star Trek fan fiction, it was so bad and so ridiculous," like you don't use the names and you don't link to it. You protect the anonymity of the person. And so it's sort of like, yeah, even even though we can still be just as vicious and just as critical, there is sort of this accepted way of doing things.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: That this discussion sort of flies in the face of, which is interesting, it's like, huh, you know, they can you can go both ways on that. That has pros and cons.

Liz: Yeah, there was a discussion on Twitter a few weeks ago about racism in fandom and on AO3. One person cited a very specific Michael/Lorca slavery AU, and I knew exactly which fic she was talking about. And I have shared her opinion, and that fic is vile, and I hate it. And I hate that it's on AO3 and there's no way to block it when I search for Lorca fic.

But no one was linking to it. No one was saying this to the author's face. Apparently people have tried to go, "This is a very bad idea for a fic," and she's just like, "LOL, whatevs!"

We are critical. But there's also just too many people in fandom to get all of us in a room or on one mailing list to be part of this discussion.

Anika: It's so interesting that you mention mailing lists, because I was there for the mailing list, um, Trek stuff. And I do remember, you know, there was a lot of -- I guess it was like camps, you know, people who would be on one side or the other of a discussion. And that could get pretty intense sometimes. I don't have any -- it was sort of the end of it when I was involved, so I feel like I witnessed the move from email list to online, I don't know--

Liz: Blogs.

Anika: Yeah, like blogs and all, your own space, I guess.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: As opposed to -- we would like email each other our fan fictions, and they wouldn't go anywhere else, it would just be on this email list, and the copy of the email list that was in Yahoogroups, or whatever.

Liz: And if you were, for example, part of a Janeway/Chakotay group, you weren't necessarily with your friends or people you knew. Certainly for me, my first mailing group was JetC22, and I just signed up and was allocated to this particular group. And there were some people there that I liked very much, and there were some people there that I really, really disliked. And--

Anika: Right.

Liz: --from there that gave me a foundation to go to the people I did like, "Hey, let's start our own group with hookers and booze."

Anika: Right. It's amazing and crazy to think, "Oh, we could just all have a conversation in one room and discuss it all." And that was cool.

Liz: I'm sort of glad that we don't have to go back to those days, but at the same time, like, I like to think that these ladies would look at my fic and go, "Oh, yeah, she's totally feminist by the standards of 1976."

Because the essay starts off, "Feminism in much of Treklit can be regarded as non-existent, particularly in GRUP type stories." And GRUP was an adult content zine which took its name from the slang for grown ups in the TOS episode "Miri. And I'm like, I can't think of a worse thing to name your smut zine.

Anika: I know! That's so, so bad. I'm turned off immediately, but that's just me here in 2021.

Liz: Right. And it's interesting that they're complaining here that the smut fic was very much generic, which I think is still a complaint these days. Sometimes you read a fic and you're like, "I don't think that really taught me anything new about the characters, I have no insight into how this author feels about them, save that she's sort of mashing her action figures together." Which is not a bad thing, but it's not what I enjoy in fic

Anika: Right, it's definitely not what I enjoy in fic. I think that my interests are very well known at this point, and it's pretty much never sex.

Liz: No.

Anika: So. Oh, well!

Liz: It goes on to say, "Some stories are anti-feminist in that women are segregated out of them. Action is all concerned with the male characters. And the implication is that women are not liable to participate in such matters." I like to think that fandom has moved on.

Anika: Well...

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: Yes. Yes, fandom has moved on, but has society?

Liz: Well, no. I think what's notable here is that they're not specifically talking about slash fic, they're probably talking about, I guess what in the X-Files fandom was called case files or casefics, where it's basically, "I'm writing a Star Trek episode, but in prose format." And they're sort of reflecting The Original Series in that it is very dudely.

Anika: Yeah, absolutely.

Liz: You know, we say, "Oh, fandom is so subversive, fic is about reclaiming the narrative." But honestly, some people write fic because they like the narrative and they want more of it. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but if you're not applying a critical eye to your source then maybe you're reproducing its problems.

Anika: Hmm, it's interesting. I mean, I just said I, I have very specific likes and dislikes. And there's a lot of stuff like -- casefic, I don't really need, because I can watch the show for that. But curtain fic, which is, like --

Liz: The domestic...

Anika: -- the characters just, like washing the dishes or arguing about Netflix, like that. I eat it up. That's my favorite thing. There's no saving the world, there's just, "We saved the world, and now we're going home to relax and, and decompress--"

Liz: Yes.

Anika: "-- and do whatever we want to do." Like, those are the fics that I like.

Liz: And "what happens after you save the world?" is a good story.

Anika: It's not subversive, but it is something that's not in the fiction as it stands.

Liz: I think it is subversive in a small way, because you're adding the domesticity which has been excluded from the primary narrative, and in doing so, highlighting that it, too, has value.

Anika: It definitely has value.

Liz: I really like casefic that's character-driven, that's about the people. And I used to have that itch scratched by tie-in fiction, and it doesn't so much anymore -- Una McCormack, thank God, she exists. But, yeah, it's not really something we see so much now that tie-in fiction exists.

And also, I think there's a stronger impetus to file serial numbers off and turn a fic into an original work. And if you're going into all the effort of writing a plot anyway, just throw in that little bit more effort and make it original. I feel like there's less need for casefic.

Anika: Yeah, I agree. But I don't search it out, so maybe it's there, and I just don't read it.

Liz: Yeah, possibly. I have this idea for a Lorca/Cornwell casefic, where they're in their thirties, and they have to go undercover as a married couple on, like, a human settlement that's outside of the Federation. And the reason I haven't started writing it is that I'm like, well, it's not very shippy, so where's where's the hook?

Anika: "Right. So why am I doing it?"

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: I get that.

Liz: The essay goes on, "Other fics concern women, but in a very negative light," and they go on to discuss two fics in particular. One has the rather spectacular title of "Murder, Rape and Other Unsocial Acts". And it's -- I looked it up, it has a Fanlore page of its own. -- it's about a Klingon family, and there's a lot of comedy rape because it's the '70s. And ... yeah, it seems like something that would not really fly these days, and obviously, it was subject to criticism at the time.

And the other fic is titled "An Abortive Attempt", in which a human gynecologist is effectively extradited to Vulcan to face charges for performing an abortion on a Vulcan woman.

Anika: Amazing!

Liz: This is such a specifically 1970s concept. And I have to disagree that this is not a feminist story. This, to me, is a wildly feminist story. Just because something bad happens to a woman -- I'm guessing that this -- I couldn't find it online, but I'm assuming that this is not actually pro-life propaganda, and therefore it is a feminist story, defending choice. I guess? Probably?

Anika: I guess. It's amazing that -- just thinking about, you know, what do Vulcans think about abortion is like -- oh, my goodness! What a great thing.

Liz: Because we would go, "Well, obviously reproductive rights and controlling fertility down to the micro level is very logical." Pardon me, I'm losing my voice. We would think that extreme reproductive rights and micromanaging fertility is very logical.

But then you think, "Well, they've got these arranged marriages, and it's really hard to get a divorce, and Spock is actually quite sexist in The Original Series." He's sort of the logic over feelings guy, as opposed to feminist Jim Kirk, who's like, "But feelings, Spock! They have their place. Women! They're so beautiful!" So, for the '70s, it's a logical extrapolation of Vulcan culture

Anika: Of pro-life Vulcans?

Liz: I guess?

Anika: I mean, yeah, I get it, I get it, but it's also -- I can't imagine it would happen very often on Vulcan, just because they know their cycles so well -- that sounds so weird. And so, if something came up, I feel like there would be a logical reason for it to be needed. I don't know. I just I feel like you could use logic to come up with [a reason] why you should have an abortion easier than why you shouldn't.

Liz: No, I agree. Like, I kind of perceive the Star Trek universe as being a lot like Lois McMaster Bujold's future, where we just control fertility so well and we have extra-uterine gestation anyway, so unwanted pregnancies aren't really an issue for people very often?

Anika: We can only hope.

Liz: It's a nice idea. But it's just interesting to me that this fic is such a reflection of the time in which it's written. And in twenty years, will people be looking back -- on their podcast that's broadcast straight into people's brains -- and going, "Wow, there were a lot of fics about gay marriage back then. Gosh, that's such a product of its time."

Anika: Oh, my goodness. I mean, again, we can only hope.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: I would love for our progressive future to actually be progressive.

Liz: Yes, yes! I would love to do a thesis on something or something about tracking social progress through issues in fan fiction and depictions in fan fiction. One day, when I have time to do a PhD, and can also go to Iowa to go through their zine archive.

Anika: Cool.

Liz: Then we get to the discussion of specifically anti-feminist stories. And here they discuss a fic called "How About a Raffle?" in which -- it's a Kirk/Uhura fic, and Kirk accidentally sells Uhura into slavery.

Anika: Yikes. I don't think that just happens. Like I was gonna say it happens, but no. No, that's not not true. It doesn't just happen.

Liz: They're dealing with some Orions, and Uhura enters a dance contest, but it turns out that the winner is, like, the top slave or something.

Anika: Oh my God.

Liz: It's still racist.

Anika: I like the attempt to world build for the Orions

Liz: Don't get carried away. Mary Louise Dodge, the author, quote, "Rose and astonished the floor by stating that they were anti-feminist, and anyway, the Orion dancers were only humanoid, not human or intelligent."

Anika: Big yikes!

Liz: Big yikes indeed!

Anika: That is straight up from, you know, stories about masters--

Liz: Straight up slavery?

Anika: Yeah. Like, you know, and, yeah, bad. Bad. Don't ever go there ever. [laughs] I don't want to be an anti...

Liz: Well, it's interesting! I looked up Mary Louise Dodge, and she was involved in fandom for a really long time. She was on the Welcommittee, she ran the mailroom, she organized cons. She wrote a lot of fic. And I feel like we would have crossed paths, had I been in fandom at the time, because she was very much a het writer. And she wrote a lot of Kirk/Uhura, which I probably would have shipped back then.

And she was very vocally anti-slash and anti-porn. I've actually put a note here, that I guess you could call her fandom's first anti. After one con, she wrote a famous letter to a bunch of zines, complaining that there was smut -- smutty zines and smutty art openly displayed on the floor and in the art show. And, you know, "why can't we get back to the good wholesome values of the 1960s?"

Anika: Yay for concern trolling having a deep history.

Liz: You know, I do think smut should be opt-in. And certainly, she is the person responsible for, like, age statements in zines and stuff. And there were a lot of things in fan culture at the time that wouldn't be acceptable today, like dressing up as Spock and Kirk's erect penises. Can you imagine going to, like, Comic Con in that costume?

Anika: And seeing that?

Liz: Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like, she's not talking about consent, she's talking about -- she just hates smut and hates slash, and is quite deeply homophobic.

Anika: Right.

Liz: And doesn't apologize, which I enjoy, but I've sort of started thinking of her as the Phyllis Schlafly of fandom.

Anika: You're Wrong About, the podcast, just did a deep dive into Tipper Gore versus, you know, like heavy metal, basically,

Liz: It's sitting in my podcast feed, but the Reply All expose on Bon Appetit came up and took precedence.

Anika: I understand your priorities. But it really reminds me of all this stuff. Not just what we're talking about here with Mary Louise, but also with the whole anti culture now.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: And even in academia, the idea that should you put a content warning or not on your syllabus? And there is a difference between opting in, like, having it having it be clear what something is, versus censorship.

Liz: Yes!

Anika: And it's like, we've been talking about this for fifty years, and we still haven't figured that out. And it's just really interesting.

And the issue is that if you look at what Mary Louise has problems with, versus what Tipper Gore has problems with, versus what the whole anti-Reylo crowd have problems with, it's like the bar shifts, but what it comes down to is, "I don't like this, and therefore, it shouldn't be a part of society."

Liz: Yeah, as opposed to, "I don't like this, therefore, I don't want to see it."

Anika: Right. Which is the whole argument for, you know, using tags.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: And using databases and having the little sticker that says explicit lyrics. It's not hurting anyone. But if there was like -- they wanted the occult stickers, and it's like, guys, you can't just go around saying, you know, "This is the occult." There are certain things that are subjective, and you can't decide to have a label that has that level of subjectivity.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah.

Anika: That's a slippery slope towards, you know, "Oh, now we're gonna have Muslim stickers, or we're gonna have Jewish stickers." You know, it gets really bad really quickly.

Liz: And there are certainly parts of America where Catholicism would get an occult sticker.

Anika: Exactly. So it's just really -- there are levels. And this is a conversation that, like I said, we've been having for a long time, and I think we're going to continue having for a long time.

Liz: I think it's good that we keep having this conversation, because the context is always changing. And we need to keep examining it.

Anika: As much as we were talking about the Lorca and Michael slave fic, that I'm not going to read and I'm not going to encourage in any way. But I also am not going to say she can't write it or post it. I just want to opt out.

And the same with Mary Louise and her "Let's accidentally sell Uhura into slavery." Like, that's nothing I ever want to read, and I'm kind of upset hearing about it. But okay, you're, you're allowed to do that. I don't want to read it. And I want to know that it's gonna happen so that I don't have to read it.

Liz: And, you know, the problem with AO3 is that there is no way to block this author, or to stop this fic from appearing in every single tag that the author applies. And I think particularly blocking someone is an option that they really need. When you look at zines, it's much, much harder to avoid -- unless you only subscribe to zines whose editors won't publish Mary Louise Dodge. And I'm sure that there were some, she seems to have been incredibly polarizing. But what if you want, you know, Nice Hetfic Zine issue three, and it has five great stories and one Mary Louise Dodge?

Anika: Right, exactly. The reason that we keep talking about it is there's no easy answer. There's just compromises. And it's hard. It's a thorny question.

Liz: And for the record, I would have subscribed to Nice Hetfic Zine issue three. And then I would have written a snarky letter to its letter column complaining about Mary Louise Dodge and her terrible fic, because that was acceptable at the time.

Anika: Exactly. That's the other thing. It's so interesting.

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: It's so interesting. And then, you know, comments on AO3 are like I would say at least eighty percent positive.

Liz: Yeah. And I think that's because comments are for the author. Whereas this is a review culture rather than a feedback culture.

Anika: Oooh, that's good.

Liz: So the discussion is less -- it's more readers talking to readers, than readers talking to writers.

Anika: Yes. That's another thing that I kind of wish we still had, fanfic treated as -- like, I would love to read some reviews or a deep dive into one author's recurring themes, or something like that. I would be super into it. I understand that people wouldn't like it -- the authors. But I would love it. And honestly, I wouldn't mind if people did it for me.

Liz: I was just going to say, the themes of domesticity -- and you write a lot of baby fic, but it's not because [you're going], "Oh, babies are so cute. I love children!" I'm sure you do, babies are cute. But it's about, "What do we, as flawed parents, pass on to our children? And how do we make them better than -- how do we make their lives better than what we've had?" And this seems to recur in all of your fics that I've read in any fandom.

Anika: So strange that I'm obsessed with the relationship between parents and children and their parents! Mm, so strange. And trauma. I know the things that I focus on. I focus on adoption, I focus on identity. I focus on sibling relationships. Like, these are things that are -- I think I've said before that everything I write is actually about me. I don't have to put a Mary Sue in anything, a nd I don't have very many original characters. But I one hundred percent give Katrina Cornwell my own backstory.

Liz: Right. And I've seen that in your fic. She -- often in your fics, she has lost a parent at a young age, and is dealing with that even into adulthood. But it doesn't feel like, oh, yeah, that's just Anika putting her own thing on Kat. It feels like exploring.

Anika: Yeah. Yeah, at least that's my intention. But yeah, so I would love to be even a part of like, a book club, or something where we meet each other and talk about it. Like, I think that would be so fun. And I'm sort of sad that that culture doesn't exist anymore.

Liz: It's sort of like how bookmarks on AO3 are for readers rather than writers. And sometimes, like, there's a piece of feedback that was attached -- it wasn't feedback, it was just a note attached to a bookmark of one of my fics that said, "really good handling of disability." And I was like, "This is the greatest feedback I have ever not really received."

But the other thing is, quite a few years ago, in Doctor Who fandom, I created a sock puppet and started reviewing the fics that were nominated for an award. It started out as a very mean, bitchy sort of thing to do, because I thought that the fics being nominated were not award-worthy -- note my own fics were nominated. So I was not a neutral observer.

But I wound up finding like it was a really interesting way of reading outside of my usual field and going, "Okay, well, this is a Ten/Rose fic, and I don't ship that. And this fic is almost entirely made up of things that don't resonate with me at all, and now I understand why I don't read this fit this sort of in this genre. But this is actually a really good fic, and I think that if you were a Ten/Rose shipper, you would really like it."

And then, you know, one of my so called friends revealed my identity on an anon meme, and there was wank, and people still think I'm one of the worst people in Doctor Who fandom which, yeah, it was a whole thing. I don't recommend doing this. It was not great. But in terms of reviewing fics as pieces of literature, it was a really interesting experience. And I actually had people say, "Hey, will you review my fic?"

Anika: I don't use beta readers very often, because I have a very particular way of writing, and I like my style, and I don't want to change it. So I don't give it to people and say, "Does this make sense? Did I forget something? You know, is this good?" I just don't need someone to tell me that before it's published.

Liz: Yep.

Anika: But once it's published, I would love someone to read it and critique it. I don't know why.

Liz: You are flying without a wire!

Anika: I just don't want to change it while I'm writing it. But I would love to know what people think of it after the fact.

Liz: That's -- that's very interesting!

And I do use a beta reader -- hi, I know you're listening -- because I have this problem where I don't close quotation marks, and she's very good at finding stuff like that. And she also knows when to tell me that I'm disappearing up my own butt, and when I am doing something really cool that she's enjoying, and I appreciate that. I appreciate you a lot.

Back to the essay, Jean Lorrah replied that it was not the treatment of the Orion women that was irritating, but Kirk's condescending good old boy attitude, "the cute little girl is drunk," and that that attitude coming from the female characters was unfortunately common in Trek literature. "Do my thinking for me."

Anika: Yeah.

Liz: They sort of move on to original characters. And apparently there was a trend of pairing off McCoy with a sweet, innocent eighteen-year-old girls.

Anika: Again, I don't want to be an anti. But why? What is that about?

Liz: Yeah, it's not the sort of thing that I find appealing.

Anika: My note here is just "yikes". I mean, doesn't McCoy have an eighteen-year-old daughter?

Liz: Yes. And according to Mary Louise, there was a lot of fic where he slept with his daughter. And I know--

Anika: No, no.

Liz: But because I don't fully trust Mary Louise is a source, I'm like, is that one fic she saw and it was an outlier and probably written to shock, like the notorious Draco/Lucius skullfucking fic, or was it an actual trend? And I'm pretty sure I really--

Anika: I'm disturbed. But I'm also like, wow, what was going on? What was that about? I'm very curious. I mean, I guess because McCoy is the oldest, and is the most paternal, but he's also the most, like, I don't want to say feminine, but, like, feminine.

Liz: He's a very caring person.

Anika: And so it's interesting. It's very interesting, you know, and I could definitely imagine being an eighteen-year-old girl, and deciding that I wanted to date, McCoy. Or like, I could imagine, of all of the people in Star Trek, he would be the best relationship, I can sort of see it going that way, and ending up with this crazy fic. But if it was a trend ... I'm just so interested. It's so weird.

Liz: And the thing is, these weren't eighteen-year-old girls generally writing these fics, these were, like housewives?

Anika: Yeah, housewives.

Liz: Yeah, adult women.

Anika: It's like the whole "Twilight is read by teenage girls and their mothers" thing.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: This is what it sounds like. To me.

Liz: This is not to disparage either housewives or mothers who read Twilight, because I feel like housewives, stereotypically, and middle aged women are as dismissed as teenage girls. But it's just interesting.

Anika: And they don't make anybody any money.

Liz: There's a very nice remark here. "Some of the reasons for badly drawn female characters is simply bad writing, and male characters are just as unrealistic, but this can improve." And then they talk about a specific series again, it looks like a series, like, pairing Sarek with a lady named Lorna. So Sarek gets his own Mary Sue.

Anika: I have to go off on a tangent on this because Lorna is a very specific name. It's pretty old fashioned at this point, like now, but my last name, Dane, is taken from Lorna Dane, who was an X Men character created in 1968. She was introduced in 1968, but then she joined the team in the late '70s. So Lorna Dane is Polaris, and she is Magneto's daughter, at least seventy-five percent of the time.

Liz: Right. His kids seem to have fluctuating identities.

Anika: And she's my favorite X Men, X Men, X Woman, whatever. X. My favorite X. So when I was published in a book of comic book essays, I was published under the name Anika Dane Milik. And so when I got divorced, and I changed my name, I just went to Dane.

Liz: That makes sense. Yes.

Anika: But it's like, it's Lorna, it's Lorna Dane, that's who it is. And this idea that this character that was created in the mid to late '70s, as Sarek's wife after Amanda died, I'm like, so, Sarek is now a part of my identity. And I am really excited about that! And apparently, Lorna's last name is Mitchell, so it's like Gary Mitchell's daughter, Lorna. But she's from the past. Everything about it is amazing. Everything about this, I had to look it up, and I'm so excited by the whole idea.

Liz: This sounds fantastic.

Anika: I love it. I love it, and now I get to be, in some universes, married to Sarek.

Liz: I am deeply sorry for you.

Then they go on to remark that from Lorna in one fic to Lorna in another, "there has been a vast elevation of consciousness". And it's like, as I read that, like my clothes turned into flares and my hair centre-parted... just peak '77

Anika: Yeah, you started hearing … what's that song from Hair.

Liz: Oh, I was dreaming about Hair last night.

Anika: It was like in my head. But, you know, the morning song.

Liz: Yeah, yeah.

Anika: "In the... nah, nah, nah." That song. Anyway, you start hearing that song, I start hearing that song, just can't remember the lyrics.

And that sentence is also so supremely Lorna Dane. The reason that I love Lorna Dane so much is that she's completely different every single time you meet her. She has all of these like, weird relationships with her parents, both Magneto and then her adoptive parents. Her relationships are all crazy. And she never feels good enough, and she's an only child, and all she ever wants is siblings. And she's -- there's so much. And it's literally crazy. I mean, everything in the X Men is crazy. But she is, by far, one of the most -- like just the fact that every other story she's either Magneto's daughter or not is enough.

Liz: Honestly, I'm getting very powerful Wanda Maximoff vibes from this?

Anika: Oh, yeah, exactly.

Liz: I find it interesting that Magneto's daughters tend to be sort of very fluid, dynamic characters whose personalities and backstories are always changing.

Anika: And going back to something we were just discussing in this essay, there's this sort of idea that Magneto can be super powerful, and be able to destroy the planet at a whim, and he is very serious and sad, and we have a lot of respect for him even if we don't agree with him.

Whereas Wanda and Lorna have the same amount of power and can destroy things, and they are crazy. And they need to be, have to be--

Liz: They're unstable and they need to be stopped.

Anika: --locked up, and are a danger to themselves and others. And it's like, okay, so Magneto definitely tried to take over the world four times, but he's not a danger to himself or others? You created an entire prison for him that no one else would ever need, yet he's not considered crazy or unstable or dangerous the way that Wanda and Lorna are.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: That's a thing.

Liz: The next note in this essay is that a common theme in feminist Treklit is responsibility, and stories about women being given responsibility and handling it properly, or needing to learn responsibility and doing so.

My note here was, "Are women people?" but it turns out that this is a story that the comics and superhero genre, at least, is still grappling with, and I think WandaVision is doing it in a really interesting way. And Wanda's allies are Monica and what's her face? Darcy.

Anika: Darcy

Liz: Yeah. And Jimmy Wu, and to a lesser extent right now, Vision. But these, with one exception, are not white people -- sorry, not white men. And--

Anika: And Vision is played by a white man but I don't -- like he's one of those on the line kind of people.

Liz: Yeah, I'm just -- Paul Bettany...

Anika: He is a white man but he's also not, in the context of the story.

Liz: My feelings about Paul Bettany are very complicated for Johnny Depp reasons. So I'm lukewarm on wanting to see him, ever. But his performance is great, and all. And I just think it's depressing that this [storyline] is still something that media struggles with.

Anika: And it one hundred percent is. It's something that -- I mean, look at Rey.

Liz: Yes. So--

Anika: That's gonna be my answer to everything. Yeah, women are not people is generally the key. Women are vessels that we can put ideas onto, I guess, is the way it goes.

Liz: Yeah. And then the other issue they discuss is issues that are of specific concern to women, or of special concern to women, rather, and they talk about a fic where, quote, "a rape case threatens to obscure the issue of a female officer's rights by triggering an overprotective reaction".

Which, again, going by TOS alone, seems like a pretty valid basis for a fic -- look at look at all those episodes where Janice Rand is attacked, and the only people she has to go to about it are Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Even if it was Kirk's evil double that attacked her.

Anika: It's just bad.

Liz: It's -- yeah.

Anika: Again, I'm really interested in this idea that they wrote -- they were writing stories about rape, and not -- I mean, I haven't read the story, but it doesn't seem like it was sensationalizing rape. It seems like it was, "Hey, this is a thing that happened in canon that didn't get the treatment that I want. And so let's talk about that."

Liz: Yes. "And let's talk about how, not not the rape itself, but the reaction afterwards impedes justice, and recovery." That's super interesting, and still contemporary!

Anika: And still contemporary.

Liz:   And then they talk about Mary Sue, and, you know, everyone on the Enterprise is extraordinary. But if you create a woman who is extraordinary, then she's a Mary Sue. And they debate, you know, do you write a male character and then make it female? Or do you try and create a three dimensional woman? 

And I still see these discussions now, and I'm like, whatever gets you to a good character is a valid technique.

Anika:   A couple of things really jumped out at me. One was "showed some problems Spock could have if he had been female, as well as first officer."

Liz:   Yeah!

Anika:   I'm very picky about gender swap fic. Because it can be done so poorly, so easily.

Liz:   Yes.

Anika:   But that's a really interesting question. If everything was the same, except Spock was a woman, what would that mean? I'm interested in that. And if it was done well, then it could be a really amazing story.

Liz:   Right?

Anika:   So I love that they're bringing these questions up. And then another one was, "when one writes a female officer onto the ship, and part of this usually lies with her occupation: what does she do? Why is she on the ship, and what is her function when she is sent down to the planet?" 

And I'm just like, uh, I'm pretty sure you'd have to ask those questions about any original character that you made up?

Liz:   Yeah. Men can have jobs too!

Anika:   And so what it comes down to is that -- it goes back to the earlier comment about how there weren't women in the show, and the women that were in the show didn't get to do what the men did, that Uhura got to take command once, ever.

Liz:   Yes.

Anika:   And it was too late, basically.

Liz:   And it was in the animated series. Which to an extent--

Anika:   Which, who even watched?

Liz:   Yeah, I don't want to say it doesn't count. But it's only just now being treated as a serious and valid part of the Star Trek universe. Aside from "Yesteryear".

Anika:   So really, it's really interesting that they were sort of asking these questions seriously, amongst themselves, you know, and treating it with any kind of gravity, 'cos (a) I think the answer is obvious.

Liz:   Yes.

Anika:   And (b), we shouldn't have to answer this. What it's just the whole thing of "let's create a male character and, and write it as a man and then switch it at the end." Like, yeah, sure. And if you're not going to do that, which is fine, because gender does have an impact -- or you know, can, I should say can have an impact -- it's okay for someone's gender to have a meaning to them. But you shouldn't have an emotional and intellectual quandary about why this woman is on this ship.

Liz:   If you wouldn't have that same quandary for a male character, why are you having it for this lady?

Anika:   Right! They belong on the ship. That's my answer.

Liz:   She's on the ship because that's her job. It's where Starfleet told her to be, the end.

Anika:   Finally, the one that really, you know, just made me smile. "One dead giveaway of a Mary Sue is when everyone on the ship loves her except Kirk." That is my favorite fun fact that I've never heard before.

Liz:   No, me neither. I've seen Mary Sues where Kirk loves her and Spock doesn't. And I've seen all sorts of Mary Sues, and they're all great.

Anika:   It was just amazing. I I loved that idea. The idea that people are reading a story, and all of a sudden Kirk doesn't like someone, and they're like, "Mary Sue!" And that's it, that character is tainted and you can't see that character as anything other than a Mary Sue. It's just crazy. But amazing. And I'm not saying that it's not true. I just think it's hilarious.

Liz:   I don't think it's a data point that became universal. Like you don't see this in Star Trek Mary Sue litmus tests. Remember litmus tests? Wow. Speaking of fandom history!

Anika:   They were like 80 questions long.

Liz:   I know!

Anika:   And you had to put it in, and then it would tell you if your original character was a Mary Sue or not. And I will tell you, I don't write a lot of original characters, like I said, I never put in any original characters. But I constantly put in my version of canon characters. And the thing is that more than fifty percent of my answers were canon. I wasn't making things up about these people.I was reading the canon, when I was answering the question as my interpretation of the character that I saw on screen.

Liz:   No, this makes perfect sense to me because -- I think it's Seanan McGuire who had an essay on LiveJournal, pointing out that "Mary Sue" is just another word for protagonist.

Anika:   Exactly. So usually I would get, "You are close to the line of crossing over into Mary Sue-dom and you should take away at least one flaw," or, you know, something like that. It's just like, okay!

Liz:   Whatevs!

Anika:   I will tell Gene Roddenberry?

Liz:   Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, I need to summon the ghost of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle to tell him that Sherlock Holmes is a Mary Sue.

Anika:   You know who's a real Mary Sue? Watson.

Liz:   Yes!

Anika:   One hundred percent a Mary Sue.

Liz:   I feel like Holmes is the idealized Mary Sue and Watson is the self insert Mary Sue.

Anika:   Mm, I can see that.

Liz:   "The panel then fled from Mary Sue stories."

Anika:   As did we all.

Liz:   And they talk about how it's difficult to create a good female character, because there aren't many templates to draw from in Star Trek. And--

Anika:   Like I said.

Liz:   Yeah. "There are plenty of strong masculine characters to work from, but very few women."

Anika:   And that's the thing. Again, here in 2021, every woman in Star Trek has been called a Mary Sue at least once.

Liz:   And honestly, most of [the women in TOS] are pretty interesting. Like, they're not necessarily strong people. But generally, they're more complex than we give credit for.

Anika:   Right. So it's --first of all, just stop talking about Mary Sues and let it go. That's that's my take number one. And take number two, just because a woman is a woman and a new character in an old fandom does not mean that they are a Mary Sue automatically.

Liz:   Yeah. 

Then they talk about -- it's sort of a digression, which obviously we're familiar with  here. "Most blonde women were dependent and ineffectual, well, brunettes were usually forceful, and control their own destinies." And they give the example of Majel Barrett, who goes from Number One to Chapel. 

I had never thought of this, and I think overall, as a pattern, it holds for The Original Series. But I also think that there were, you know, existing stereotypes about blondes versus brunettes.

Anika:   Yeah, I don't think that Star Trek--

Liz:   No.

Anika:   I don't think Star Trek created that idea.

Liz:   No, you know, [in] Marilyn Monroe movies, she always has a brunette offsider, who's a lot smarter and more together than she is.

Anika:   So strange, it's like, blondes are more beautiful and have more fun, and people are more interested in them. But the brunettes are the smart ones. And the ones with depth. That is just -- like, this is weird, okay?

Liz:   Unless you get the sort of Hitchcock blonde who is terribly intelligent, but also cold and damaged. And that's Seven of Nine.

Anika:   Yes.

Liz:   But it's also interesting that they cite Chapel, because the whole reason that I wanted to do an episode on zines is that I have a paper copy of issue 25 of T-negative, which has a wonderful essay about Christine Chapel, basically saying, everyone writes her off as a dumb blonde with no agency who's only in love with Kirk. [Obviously I meant Spock, don't @ me…] And actually she is a really, really interesting character. And then the author goes on to discuss Christine in both canon and in fiction. 

It was a wonderful essay, and I was going to cite it -- we talked about doing a Chapel episode, but Women at Warp had just done one. Justice for Christine Chapel, who's not even a character I really care about. But this essay made me want to.

Anika:   Right, that's my take on a lot -- you know, there's the characters that I really, really, really care about, and everybody who listens to this podcast could name them. And then there's all the other women characters who -- like, I will meet you in an alley and punch you--

Liz:   Right?

Anika:   --to protect them, I will one hundred percent go to battle for every woman on Star Trek.

Liz:   Yes. Even the ones I don't like

Anika:   Because all of the arguments against them are sexist. That's where I'm at.

Liz:   One day, I'm going to present the argument that Lwaxana Troi is narcissistic, and not necessarily fully abusive to Deanna, but she is not good to Deanna. And that's the only argument that I will accept against Lwaxana.

Anika:   And the difference is that that is a critique of Lwaxana as a person, which is totally fair.

Liz:   It's not just "she's middle aged and thinks she's sexy."

Anika:   Right, we shouldn't put women on a pedestal, either. But the critiques aren't critiques, they're just, "I don't like" -- again, it's, "I don't like this, and I'm going to write them off." I just watched Star Trek 2009.

Liz:   You did!

Anika:   And I am so ready to go to battle for Uhura. Like, it's upsetting to me. I've seen that movie many times now. You know, like a dozen, let's say, -- I don't know.

Liz:   I've seen it twice!

Anika:   And I can just hear all the negative comments as I'm watching the show. Like, I'm sitting here and I'm watching the movie, and I just hear all this chatter. You know, Uhura is telling Spock to put her on the Enterprise, and there's eight hundred voices in my head saying how she's a nagging girlfriend. And I just like, "No, no, she is not!" She is standing up for herself the way that any person should, and the fact -- their relationship is a wrinkle to it. It is not the reason for it. And if Kirk did exactly the same thing, people would be applauding him.

Liz:   Yes, yes.

Anika:   So I can't. As I was watching the movie, every single thing that Uhura did, I imagined Kirk doing it, and having all of the people like you know, saying "Oh, he was the best version of Kirk." I was just like, ugh! And I know I'm saying that as someone who thinks that Chris Pine is the best version of Kirk...

Liz:   You know, there are credible rumours that Strange New Worlds is going to feature a young Uhura. There's a casting call for a young African American woman to play a comms officer, whose name in the casting call is African, just as Uhura is based on the Swahili. 

And I see people going, "Oh, good, Strange New Worlds is going to fix Uhura, they're going to do her properly." And I'm like, no, they're just going to do her differently. Peck!Spock is not better than Quinto!Spock. They're just different interpretations of Nimoy!Spock.

Anika:   Mm hmm.

Liz:   Anyway.

Anika:   Yeah, so sorry, tangent, but I just get super defensive of these women characters because people are against them for really silly reasons.

Liz:   Moving on, we hit a marvelous piece of fake news. "Another problem with female characters is that feminism can become too much an issue."

Anika:   Oh, dear. I love this because literally like two paragraphs before that, they're saying that feminism is the reason like -- that the lack of female characters is the reason that it's hard to write female characters. It's like, guess what, guys, you're being feminist in that argument. And so now, these women are saying that there's too much feminism in my Star Trek, and I -- again, I'm pretty defensive.

Liz:   They cite this amazing sounding fic when Number One is now -- it says in this recap, she is now an alien ambassador. But according to the Fanlore page for the fic itself, she is the captain of the USS Hood. And any Friends of DeSoto can just take a moment to say, "Best boss I ever had." 

She sits down with a Romulan commander and they both, quote, "bitch interminably about being trodden on by the men in their lives, losing the plot amongst the complaints." 

And like, maybe the fic is sort of hijacked by this, and the story it promised to tell is not the story that eventually came out. I just really, really want to read this fic.

Anika:   I really want to read it too. And that's what I'm saying, that is the kind of stuff that I love to read and write in fic, which has absolutely nothing to do with the plot, but is all about their feelings and their lives and their interpretation of what's going on.

Liz:   And I just love the idea of Number One and a Romulan, comparing notes. I'm just saying, the Romulans had women in command before the Federation.

Anika:   Yeah. I ship it.

Liz:   And they note that the theme of women cooperating with women is a good one, and just beginning to develop. And, you know, I still get a weird warm, self-righteous glow whenever I write that in my fic, so I'm glad it's still a thing. I wish it was more of a thing. And then they move on--

Anika:   This is the best.

Liz:   --to the most important question. What about the men?

Anika:   Okay, so again, I have to tell a story about today. My most popular fanvid on YouTube is a vid about the animated women in Star Wars. So it's all animation, Rebels and Clone Wars. And that's -- actually, I made it before Resistance. So that's it, Rebels and Clone Wars. And this one is what I'm one of, if not my best -- and it's my most popular, right? And it's ages old now. Like I said, pre the last season of Rebels. 

And I still get comments all the time, because, again, it's the one that shows up in the algorithm or whatever. And today I got this amazing comment that was just one question. Four words. "What about man person?"

Liz:   Man person!

Anika:   Man person! And I just started laughing and laughing. I was like, Okay, I'm designing a T-shirt that just says, "What about man person?" and I'm buying one for all of my friends, because that is an amazing comment.

Liz:   I think that we need to release stickers on RedBubble that say, "What about man person?"

Anika:   "What about man person?" Like, that -- it was just so good. That's how I ended up with "social justice Klingon warrior" in my Twitter bio, because somebody accused me of being a social justice warrior for Klingons, and I was like, yup, yes I am. 

Liz:   Well, we've found this episode's title.

[I realise that Anika specifies that it's four words, and then I used three in the title, but, ummmmm, anyway, changing these things post-release is a pain.]

Anika:   What about man person?

Liz:   What about man person?

Anika:   Like, okay, dude, this video is literally a celebration of women. That's, that's the title. That's what it says, Star Wars: Women. I made one for Star Trek, too: Star Trek: Women.

Liz:   But, Anika, what about man person?

Anika:   Go watch Star Trek! Go watch, literally the entire original trilogy and most of the rest. And you can find all the man person you want.

Liz:   So the discussion here, what about man person? Why aren't men writing Trek fic? "There are many males in Trek, why aren't they writing? One suggestion was that men can't take criticism very well. And women are used to it."

Anika:   I mean, every answer that they come up with is actually kind of great.

Liz:   It is! But I'm like, people call us misandrists, and look at this! 

"Criticism is a good tool. The Star Trek world would seem to appeal to males. One expects Marty Sues but gets Mary Sues. But many male Trekfen don't want to write about it, instead want to be in it." 

And I think this is really interesting, because if you look at the fanworks which are dominated by men at the writing and production level, it's fan films. And there's the perennial post on the Star Trek subreddit, "Hey, I just wrote a Star Trek novel, how do I get it published?" And they never want my AO3 invite.

Anika:   Yeah! I mean, I think that this is actually a really amazing insight that is absolutely true. Like, in, in all fandom--

Liz:   Yeah. And I think--

Anika:   --men--

Liz:   Go on.

Anika:   Do that. Like women -- I think we've discussed before how there's the transformative versus, like, critical or or--

Liz:   Collecting?

Anika:   Collector, yeah. Yeah. And, again, we just said there aren't enough women doing stuff in Star Trek in 1977. And so they were, they were saying, "Hey, I'm going to create a woman character who does something." And whereas the men are like, "I'm going to, you know, make a movie where I play Captain Kirk."

Liz:   Yeah.

Anika:   And somehow, they don't see that as fanfic?

[Note from Liz: it's not that there's anything wrong with that approach! I just find it weird how things like Star Trek Continues are treated as semi-canonical, whereas fic mostly … is not.]

[Oh no, do we need to start doing eps on fic the way other podcasts do eps on fan films?]

Liz:   No, no. A few years ago, pre pandemic, I saw the play Puffs, which is essentially a Gary Stu fic in the form of a play. And it's a professional piece of theatre! You can see it on Broadway Online or something, and I highly recommend it. It was a good evening. I have very mixed feelings about Harry Potter these days, but it was a lot of fun. 

But it struck me that "the ordinary kid gets his Hogwarts letter and goes to Hogwarts and is on the periphery of the events of Harry's school years" is a fic that I have seen many, many times. And the difference is--

Anika:   So many times.

Liz:   The difference is like those fics were mostly written by women. And this guy was like, "Oh, yeah, that's a valid idea. I'm going to write a play, and I am going to make it enough of a parody that it is a professional endeavor." And it's just interesting that men are more--

Anika:   Willing to do that.

Liz:   Yeah! And I think it's -- I love fan fiction, and I love that we have this community of amateur writers who love something, but do we, as the women and marginalized people of fandom, need to be more open to also being professionals? Or does something get lost in that?

Anika:   Yeah. It's a really good question because I am very much of the opinion that if all you want to do is write fan fiction, more power to you.

Liz:   Absolutely.

Anika:   That is absolutely valid. That is you're still a writer. You can call yourself a writer. You are a creative. You are coming up with something that someone else didn't do. Your fic is original, even if it's fanfic.

Liz:   Right, and even if it's using tropes and ideas that have been used before, unless you are literally copying and pasting from someone else's story, it is still unique.

Anika:   Right.

Liz:   They speculate that boys aren't interested in writing. "It's cute in girls and effeminate in boys in the high school years, and boys should go out and do it, not daydream." And I think there might be some level of truth in that. Or certainly, there may have been then. And, you know, toxic masculinity and all of that.

Anika:   So here's what I wrote after I copied that over into my notes, that sentence, "writing is looked upon as cute in girls, effeminate in boys". And the sentence that I wrote is, "Hey, is it possible that this nonsense is why we have so few women writing trek novels right now?"

Liz:   Ohhhhhhhhhhhh.

Anika:   Just an idea. Just a thought.

Liz:   They do go on to note, "most SF writers and men, but that that isn't Trek."

Anika:   And also, that's not true.

Liz:   Yeah. Even back then that was not true.

Anika:   Sorry. That definitely wasn't true in the '70s. There were many women writing science fiction in the '70s.

Liz:   This was the age of McCaffrey and Butler and Le Guin. And more. Those are just the ones we remember!

Anika:   Literally everything I read in the '80s was written in the '70s. So that's just wrong. 

Liz:   Joanna Russ was writing Kirk/Spock fic and also science fiction novels.

Anika:   Exactly. It's society. It's not us. It's not me and you who's keeping Una McCormack as the only woman allowed to write Star Trek right now.

Liz:   Right, right.

Anika:   Like, it's the people in charge. And the people in charge have decided that science fiction should only be written by men, and they are going to like, make that happen.

Liz:   Right? And so it's interesting that men seem to self exclude from fan fiction. I think that's less true now than it was then. But it's certainly interesting because they go on, there's a bit down here, "at least a third of Trekfen are male." [laughs] I died! 

But they speculate that "perhaps the dearth of men in zines is self perpetuating, since male writers are reluctant to submit their precious manuscripts to female criticism."

Anika:   That is true. Like, I will say, I know some male writers who have not submitted their manuscripts because they don't want to hear it. And I said a while ago that I don't have a beta reader for the same reason, so I'm not saying that they shouldn't be like that. But it is a thing.

Liz:   No, no. What struck me was that with the internet, like the gatekeepers in the editorial process disappeared for fan fiction and we see some more men now than we had then. But still not that many. And it's like it's a mystery to me.

Anika:   I don't know any.

Liz:   Writing fan fiction is great. Why would you not?

Anika:   There aren't any men in our Kat Cornwell discord. There are a couple of non binary people, but no men?

Liz:   Certainly no cis men. Is it just not a community that's appealing to cis men?

Anika:   And why? Is it because they're not paid for it and you have to like, you know, "I hunt and gather and bring everything in"? Again the patriarchy is bad for everybody. Capitalism is bad for everybody.

Liz:   There's a very strange and amusing digression here: "Cogswell and Spano ((MAY SLIME DEVILS INFEST THEIR TYPEWRITER)) were mentioned as trotting around at cons, getting opinions for Spock Mess--but again, those are pros ((SUCH AS THEY ARE))." 

And I assume that Cogswell and Spano are nicknames. I don't know what Spock Mess is. I didn't really get any useful Google results. It might be a zine. 

I was wondering if maybe they were nicknames for Harlan Ellison or Isaac Asimov or David Gerrold, who were all part of the fan community and were certainly known as people who trotted around at cons. Gerrold was deeply hated by a lot of women in fandom because he's a complete donkey, and was not able to say "I don't care for slash" without also saying, "slash is written by fat ugly housewives who need to get laid."

Anika:   Ugh. Yeah, so--

Liz:   Thanks for the tribbles, mate, you can just move along.

Anika:   Again, fine, you don't have to read the slash. But that's just "I don't like this thing...."

Liz:   If anyone out there knows who this aside refers to please, tell us because I require much gossip.

Anika:   Also, I kind of want to have an opinion on Spock Mess.

Liz:   Yeah, I would very much like to know what it is so that I can have an opinion on it.

Anika:   I'd really like to have an opinion about it. So let me know what that means.

Liz:   "It's a waste if we can get mediocre rotten and fairly good ideas from female authors, why not from male?"

Anika:   Okay, look, I don't actually need men to have a bigger footprint in fandom, because they have reality.

Liz:   It's true. It's true. But fandom was so female dominated back then, "at least a third of Trekren are male," that I understand why, in these formative years, it would have been nicer to have 50/50. 

And then it goes, "Masculine domination of straight SF was brought up again, with the observation that SF is written by and large for adolescent males." 

No, that is not true! That was not true in the 70s! 

"And that the field has been changing to human relationship or alien relationship stories, largely on account of the female writers." Who did exist! 

And I love that they discuss original SF alongside fic. "Treklit."

Anika:   Yeah, that they're basically talking about them the same way. Like, these are both forms of science fiction writing.

Liz:   Right. And like I said, Joanna Russ was writing Kirk/Spock fic. And these days, Naomi Novik is the founder of AO3, and also writing acclaimed novels, which I personally do not care for, but I don't read them and don't complain that they exist.

Anika:   Because there's a lot of stuff that I don't read and don't complain that it exists. I'll just put that out there.

Liz:   Because I'm sort of in the con organizing scene, I pay a lot of attention to like Hugos, and I nominate and I try to read as many of the nominated works as I can. And sometimes I'm like, No, no, this is a bad year for works specifically designed to appeal to me.

Anika:   I probably read more fan fiction than published science fiction. I'll be honest.

Liz:   A lot of people do.

Anika:   Partly because it's free. Partly because it's about characters I already love.

Liz:   Yeah. And it is so hard to care -- like it takes real skill to create original characters that other people care about. It's hard!

Anika:   That is true.

Liz:   It's a real skill!

Anika:   That is very true. And even when you do -- like, let's take Daenerys Targaryen--

Liz:   Alas.

Anika:   George R R Martin created her, right? Whatever. Him

Liz:   Yes. He made you care about her.

Anika:   I guarantee that I care more about Daenerys Targaryen than he does. And I also guarantee I care more about Daenerys Targaryen than DB or the other D.

Liz:   I don't know about GRRM, but I absolutely agree with you on that. You win that easily.

Anika:   So that's why I'm gonna go read fan fiction about Daenerys Targaryen instead of caring about when Winds of Winter ever comes out.

Liz:   But also, you know, you're entering into a contract with a fic writer where they're saying, "Look, I love this character, and I care about them too." And you're like, "Cool, I'm gonna sit with you and we're going to care together."

Anika:   Right, we're gonna care together, I'm -- we're going to fix -- like, you know, fix it fic is like a really popular tag for every fandom because every fandom needs to be fixed for someone.

Liz:   I was very against the idea of fix it fic as a concept because I'm like, Sure you can change and you can alter what the show does, but ultimately, you know, what I love is canon. And then they blew someone up and I am very pro fix it fic. I am a Cornwell denialist.

Anika:   It's interesting. This is where my love of alternate universes comes in, where I can -- like a fix it fic is just an alternate universe, it doesn't mean that the canon didn't happen. It's like, here's a different way it could have gone. 

And I love that, because characters who are thrown into many different plots and many different situations and circumstances and the way things went, seeing the similarities, the throughlines, and their strengths and their skills and their innermost being, like, how it comes out? That's what's interesting to me, that's the identity stuff that I'm always talking about. That's like, this is what matters to this character.

Liz:   And there's a really interesting writing trick where, if you're not sure you understand your original character, you should go and write an AU of them. So if you're trying to write a fantasy, go scribble out a coffee shop AU and see, see what is actually essential to that character.

Anika:   Exactly, yes.

Liz:   And now I'm wondering, is the reason for the whole Mary Sue discourse, and this whole discussion about original characters in fan fiction, because a lot of these writers were novices and didn't have the skills to make people care about their original characters?

Anika:   Absolutely! I still have some of my fanfic that I wrote when I was 13. And it is bad. Even -- there are two Voyager fics that I wrote way back when that I put on my AO3, because they're the two that I think are acceptable, and they are still bad.

Liz:   Oh, yeah.

Anika:   They are … like, I put them up because I'm proud of them. But I'm proud of them twenty years ago. You know, it's like, thank God, I have improved since this time.

Liz:   The first fic I actually finished was a Savage Garden songfic where Q watches Janeway and Chakotay dance. It is not good at all. But in my defense, I was 14 years old.

Anika:   Exactly. And I think that that's, that matters. One thing that I really love about fanfic, and that I love about having a profile on Archive of Our Own, is that I can go back to this stuff that is fifteen years old, and I can say like, Oh, this is like, I'm telling this, this story again, in this new fic. But look at how much I've improved, look at how I've been able to, like, tease those ideas into something so much like -- into so much more of a blossom.

Liz:   And with these women who are writing fic in the '70s -- you know, the general profile of a Trekkie back then was a middle-aged, college educated woman who had married straight after college, had children. Maybe she had a part-time job as a receptionist, or a secretary or something like that. But this was her first creative outlet in decades. And her first writing work in decades. And it is the work of intelligent, educated but untrained writers who are practicing. And - - -

Anika:   Exactly, practicing. 

I love that fanfic doesn't have to have a beginning, a middle and an end. You don't have to waste time on telling them about the character, you can just tell them about what the character is feeling right now, because I already know who Spock is. 

So you don't have to tell me who Spock is. You just have to tell me what Spock is doing right now, and how it makes him feel, and how it's different from what he feels in the episode I just watched. 

It allows you to hone your skills with a very low like bar. You don't have to prove anything. The worst thing that happens is someone doesn't like your fic.

Liz:   And we talked at the beginning, and I guess this brings us full circle, but we talked at the beginning about how the criticisms in this panel were not the sorts of things that would fly today, and people could be really upfront about not liking stuff. 

But I read some of the letters of comment for big fics around this time, and there was one, and it's a very well known writer, and I cannot remember who she was - possibly even Paula -- no, not Paula Smith. 

Anyway, the letter of comment was basically, "You need to slow down," or, no, "she needs to slow down," it was a letter to the zine, not to the writer. 

"She needs to slow down and consider her pacing and really take time to settle into a scene and let things unfold. Because she is not a bad writer now, but she is going to be really, really good when she's comfortable enough to take her time." 

And that's really, really fantastic feedback. And put really kindly And so yeah, fandom hasn't changed that much.

Anika:   You know, you can go to college for literature, or whatever, and mostly you get beaten down. And you get told, you know, this is what you're doing wrong, and this is the way you need to do better. 

And fanfic is the opposite, where it's like, they're not going to tell you how to fix things necessarily. They're gonna encourage you, and even when they say something negative, it's in an encouraging way. And I think that the balance of both is the perfect, you know, that the best way to make a writer is to have both.

Liz:   Absolutely. 

Are we done? Should I outro?

Anika:   I think so.

Liz:   Okay. It's really hot here. I need another shower.

Anika:   I'm sorry.

Liz:   I'm sorry for Texas!

Anika:   It is. Yeah, it is cold and snowing here.

Liz:   If I could send you my excess heat...

Anika:   And I'm not Texas. Thank God.  

Liz:   Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod. You can find our show notes at  antimatterpod.tumblr.com, including links to our social media and credits for our theme music. 

You can follow us on Twitter at @Antimatter Pod, and on Facebook, because as far as Facebook is concerned, we are not a news source. That's a bit of Australian humour for you. 

If you like us, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you consume your podcasts. 

The more reviews the easier it is for new listeners to find us and join us in two weeks, when we'll be discussing bisexuality and Star Trek.

Anika:   It will be great!

[thedogsled]

You seem to be having a not a great day today, so here's a light-hearted ask. I'm having a good day, curled up in pjs with cuddly pets watching Leverage with my sister. Leverage is one of my favorite shows, because it's smart and fun and has great characters that grow over the seasons. Besides Supernatural, what's a show you really enjoy and why?

Thank you so much for the ask! I’m sorry I didn’t reply to it sooner, I’ve come down with a head cold and this is really the first day in several I’ve been able to compose more than a tweet about how much it sucks (swallowing = a knife jammed right into my inner ear, it’s super fun). But I did want to answer your question so I’ve been musing on it since your ask came in.

If it was just “what’s your favorite show right now” it’d be an easy answer: The Boys. The Boys, back to front, front to back, upside down and inside out. The first season was fantastic, and it felt like it woke me up to being excited about TV again after my interest in The Walking Dead waned mid-season. Everything new has seemed very plastic recently, and even The Mandalorian, which is super cool, is kind of like the Cartoon Network dub of Dragonball Z, so Disneyfied in its bloodlessness that although I’m enjoying it it feels even more synthetic as a result. The Boys was the opposite of that, and also just whoever invented Karl Urban, period, just deserves a nobel prize for that masterpiece. He pronounces twat wrong (okay okay it’s a dialect thing) but you can’t have everything =D

So instead (and because it’s cheating that I can pimp The Boys and wax lyrical about loves of old) I interpret your question as sort of like “Which show is your comfort food?” Which show do I go back to when I’m feeling like TV needs to give me a cuddle. I had a good think about it, because there’s a few…

(aside: I shouldn’t have put that gif in before I started writing. ahem.)

There’s been a few over the years, for sure. As a thirteen year old I used to watch and rewatch Buffy episodes, mostly season 2 (baby Spike!). At eighteen, it was old VHS of Deep Space Nine, my favorite ep was “Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night” which I watched repeatedly and think about constantly even today. 

But the show I keep coming back to is due South.

This post is a long post, it also deals with discourse (because my relationship to entertainment is so often mired in it, so please don’t proceed if you’re rather avoid it) and this is where it begins:

Okay, so fun fact: I watched due South the first time it aired with my parents (I was about 9) and then when it was on TV again as a repeat, I recorded it on VHS by RUSHING home every single day from school with nothing else on my mind but sitting on the floor two feet from the telly to watch it. Quantum Leap was on right after, and I had an entire different set of VHS tapes to record that on, so had to quickly switch between them. I’d stop recording at every break so that I could get more episodes on a tape. It’s not unsurprising to me now that both shows vibed with me as a young person who hadn’t yet really accepted that she was queer; due South’s main character is coded as Other both to the Americans whom he lives with, and his fellow Canadians, while Quantum Leap explores a straight white man jumping into the lives of Others, and living through them some of the hardest moments in their lives. Even though both keep it exceedingly, textually hetero, one has two men riding off into the snowy sunset together (leaving behind a straight lover to do so) and the other features a love between two men that in the original framing of the finale would have seen God/fate reconnecting the two of them even though one was lost in time, and the partner’s wife begging him to go.)

Of course young me didn’t give a shit about that, or didn’t realize that’s what she cared about. Young me loved the buddy-cop partnership of both shows. Young me liked the half-wolf, and the episodes where they ride horses, and honestly just waiting with bated breath to find out where Sam would jump to this time. “Oh boy!” Retrospectively, these shows (especially QL) are a lot more oh boy in a yikes context now than they used to be, but it’s good that shows age into yikes territory because it means that society is steadily advancing. Particularly, pointing out that these shows both feature white straight guys like…welcome to the nineties.

I was introduced to queer coding in part by watching due South. The show is laden with it. With writers, actors, and ultimately an executive producer who was all three, it makes you wonder if they would have gone there if they could; certainly the ending reads that way. They couldn’t, of course, because it was the nineties (and it was CBS that revived it after enormous international fan demand). Still, there was just nothing else analogous to what we have now that was going there on TV at the time. If you were queer (or discovering your queerness) then watching the show meant everything, as it did to me. So I snuggle up on the couch often these days and go back to that, because it gave me such joy, and because I was left with the opportunity to decide for myself how deep the relationship was. There was no promise of anything, because the context at the time was of course you can’t go there, nobody can go there. Queerbaiting was a word that simply hadn’t been breathed. There was no intent, no companies behind the curtain pulling strings going “Yes, make it more gay, we want those queer dollars”, just invested people slipping what they could past the studio censors.

Like this:

Sigh. A less enlightened time. =P (Incidentally fun meta here but this was after a conversation where Ray suggested that communication in a relationship should be intuitive, like breathing.)

So I guess in part I escape back there because none of that representation was ever as loaded as it is today. It doesn’t require me to judge it, or weigh it against the harm it does - because the politics of the time meant I thought it was doing good (retrospectively, and only through the lens of someone who had nothing to lose). It seemed to scream out into an unyielding universe to force it to move. It did a fraction of that, because of course it did. It was the nineties. It stole indigenous narratives and romanticized colonialism just as much as it beat the drum of environmentalism and kicked at the doors of corporate greed and racism. Old shows are inherently problematic. Today’s shows are too. Being able to examine them doesn’t mean not loving them, but it lets you say “Okay, so what do I expect from the things I watch today? What do I expect from the things I watch in five years time?”

All that aside, the show is just damn good. It’s watchable and rewatchable. It struggles to age because it was already so out of pace with the age it was made in–despite its flaws in representation, it was better than other shows at the time that demonized, tokenized, or outright killed minorities to push white narratives on their own shows (Kendra being murdered on Buffy, for example). It’s standalone enough that you can go back and watch any episode you like because overarching story arcs were way less of a staple as they are today.  It’s witty, fast paced, full of action and moral dilemma, do gooding and the consequences of it. Although still severely unbalanced, and very, very white, it did still have indigenous actors playing indigenous characters, and minorities portrayed in stories about them. There’s a dog. There’s classic cars. And it’s all put to the soundtrack of Canadian bands and singers. 

tl;dr ahead for rambling about subtext and being a disaster queer, but please scroll past for more gifs.

Queer me needed this show, in a world where I’d been taught to look and see myself in straight white male protagonists, it felt like A Lot to see all this on screen. It wasn’t, but it was all I got when I was growing up. I envy the good fortune of kids who can see themselves on screen these days while they try and figure themselves out (and hopefully more so in the future) with far less of having to negotiate through the confusion of looking at it through confusing fractals of different lenses and instead just see someone who looks like them showing them that their POV is normal, heroic and wonderful. Those lenses fucked me up big time. Like I’m not even sure right now what flavor of queer I am. I cling to bi like a lifeline of sense in my life, but it is complicated because I overwhelmingly desire the company of women way way more. But also I was was taught to look through the lens of a white dude in order to see myself universally, taught to be both desirous of the female body and humiliated by it, ashamed by sex, taught men were awful, and taught that I was supposed to marry one anyway. I look at my sexuality/romanticism like it’s a meta puzzle that I haven’t figured out yet, wondering how to put it on paper, how to break apart the different influences I experienced as a youngling and as an adult to try and negotiate if I’m misreading my own impulses. How I was brought up, who I’ve known, the relationships I’ve experienced and seen in real life and on TV. I’m 34 and I’m still no more certain. Subtext is both my friend and my enemy. I hate it, and I owe everything to it.

So when I need a rest from giving a shit about any of that noise, I go back to my comfort food. I go right back to subtext, which gave me the tools I needed to desire romance that wasn’t heterosexual, that somehow was more intimate because it relied on longing stares and never stepping foot out of the closet, that was just someone liking another person without any expectation of sex just because they have opposing genitals, and their colleagues hassle them a lot. There’s nothing wrong with the sex, I write a lot of consommation of the feelings that I see bubbling under the surface. I have even grown to appreciate het romance when it’s done in a way that doesn’t reduce the woman to a love interest–I was thrilled when Simon Baker’s Patrick Jane got together with Teresa Lisbon in The Mentalist. Their relationship was filled with subtext too. Subtext isn’t a queer thing, it has a role in all well written romance. Hell, it has a role in terriblebad tropey misogynistic romance, too. And just you know basically all storytelling (and more). 

Queer romance existing only in the subtext, though? It’s heartbreaking explicitly because it feels like a story that isn’t finished, and that’s where subtext reliant shows can hand off the story to be finished by fandom itself. In due South, as I mentioned before, Ray and Fraser jump into a dogsled and ride off over the snowy horizon to “Find the hand of Franklin, reaching for the Beaufort sea”. It’s where I chose my meta name, as I’ve mentioned before, because that ending - that ending - handed us all the subtext so far and said “Here, take it, it’s yours now. Do with it what you like”–and we did. But that was twenty years ago. I loved that ending (I still think it was a very elegant solution) and it was expected and appropriate for a show that in itself is a “Faves Are Problematic” show, but that’s also why I get so passionate about discussing the subtext in Supernatural.

It’s younger than due South. While it may have begun back when Willow from Buffy had her first girlfriend, it is ending now, not at the turn of the century where a dogsled was still good enough to get the point across and none of us had Twitter. My own experiences, my lifelong queer confusion make it so I feel pretty damn bad for people trying to use Supernatural as a medium for their own self-exploration, using characters from SPN as their lenses. A show these days that makes bank on those tropes and doesn’t inform its audience (positively or negatively) is doing so irresponsibly because of the modern context in which the show presently (not historically) sits, and the increasing awareness of the issues surrounding it. Networks, then, are ultimately responsible for that, but they are in a way which is entirely different and far more directly culpable than they were 20 years ago, because people are out there making money out of those intentional subtextual devices. They chose to do it; took a deep breath and backed right up away from Gamble’s problematic queerbashing tropes, chewed it over, then hired gay writers and dived right back in with more grown up, progressive, and less shitty subtext–but still subtext. 

This show that ended 20 years ago was able to cross way more lines with subtext in one episode than Supernatural has done sometimes in an entire season. It did so despite and because of it’s international audience, on a conservative network that would late purchase Paramount, and Star Trek, and ended with a powerfully subtextual ending. Supernatural, of course, is under a far more powerful microscope from the bigots than those oblivious to subtext back in the 90s could have ever produced. due South, like SPN was just “wholesome family entertainment” to a conservative audience that was completely oblivious by all accounts, yet was laden heavily with queer innuendo. It was also blissfully short, and existed in a social media world which consisted of Yahoo groups and not much else. 

In modern context, Supernatural gets a fox in the henhouse treatment from that same audience, and acts accordingly (when it’s not using that same subtext to deliver earnest Fuck You’s to that audience). While I expect Supernatural to bravely - even considering this scrutiny - deliver a dogsled subtextual ending on a good day, there are bad days, too, because the queer subtext has been underlined so loudly that everyone can see it, because it’s “practically text”, because the bottom line is increasingly more concerned with satisfying those bigots (even while they mock them), and because queer fans are “too loud” about what they want. How dare they. /s The pushback caused by being loud about things you care about, the bigots actually seeing subtext in front of their noses, isn’t bad because now they know what we’ve been doing all along, and we won’t be able to get away with it any more; it means they’re becoming more aware of narratives other than their own. Yes, some people will push back, but “when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression”, and they can shove it right up their asses.

All I ever ask of myself when I interrogate my present day viewing experience, is this: when I sat as a youngster watching due South thinking “This subtextual ending is enough for me”, did I truly believe it was okay to be watching a show about two white guys with a subtextual ending 20 years later? Was that the future I dreamed of and aspired to? Would I be disappointed? The answer is yes, I am disappointed. No matter the whys, the fundamental and societal reasons–I am disappointed. I still love the show probably more than I should, but I am disappointed in the society it sits in - which is increasingly capitulating to far more powerful global financial powers than a couple of red state homophobes - and I’m disappointed in the way we’re treating each other for even caring, and I’m disappointed in myself, too, for being naive and imagining we would be much further down this road now than we are. But we are a capitalistic society, and being both the commodity and the customer should be a surprise to literally nobody at this point. It doesn’t mean you have to like it.

And if you don’t feel that way, that’s okay. We all come from different places. We have different perspectives. We need and want different things, for different reasons, and find joy in different things for different reasons. Variety of opinion is as much a wonderful thing as it is completely terrifying.

I’ve wandered somewhat off topic, so I’m going to go back to the show I love, my chocolate pudding and custard comfort food TV show, and the long stares and the beautiful uncomplicated subtext.

And sign off with half a dozen gifs.

Eye fucking:

Conversations in closets and bathrooms:

Going down with the ship

Intuitively understanding each other without a word spoken

His hobbies humiliate me in public

“Do you find me attractive?”

Sulking in the corridor while you reunite with your ex

This whole ep with original Ray:

And his wolf approving of both

Not pictured “I love you” “And I you”, “Get out of the closet”, actual hand holding when it’s unnecessary, formally handcuffing your buddy, getting stuck in an ice crevasse and a mini submarine together–and so so much more. I invite you to watch the show if you can find it (I have it on a really nice set of DVDs, but there’s some dodgy ones out there that look like they recorded the DVD straight off a VHS, so do check reviews) or else try and find it online. There was a Canada promoting YouTube channel which published both due South and shows like Slings and Arrows, which I recommend as well (It’s not actually bury your gays if the ghost of your gay best friend haunts you, right?) so you should be able to poke around and find a legit copy somewhere. I’ve bigged it up and talked it down, and wandered a long way off topic (that describes my relationship with every show, but especially when I recommend them) but I hope somewhere along the line I also answered the question. The way I hear it Leverage is a similar sort of comfort food, though I haven’t seen it. Sounds like I should put it on my To Watch list.

[izartn]

Dunno I’ve been thinking and the last book I remember liking by RR was The Son of Neptune bc outsider pov on percy??? I’m always a sucker for those. Also the Leo and Jason parts of the first of HoO; Piper was meh, Jason a little less meh and Leo surprisingly good. But I just lost any major interest in the series with Mark of Athena; it was entertaining but it didn’t thrill me anymore. Maybe I had grown too old? But mostly I think it was so many charas saturating the plot. 

But really, The Last Olympian is such a good finale? Of course I wanted to read more of Percy and Annabeth but I was so happy when I finished it... And of course the undervalued Kane Chronicles, whose mythology and fantasy I liked even moren although the charas weren’t superior; that trilogy deserved so much more. 

The nome system, the different specializations and rituals and the way the protags are living gods at different points of the story??? the whole walt-anubis-sadie situation? and zia, omg? The romance is also wonkers in this trilogy, it’s so subtly creepy-wrong and the supernatural vibes... But like, when treated more seriously. Hello Sadie is 13 by book 2 and I completely forgot that bcs she was being romanced by a god and a 15-16 years old, and doing dangerous things and being Isis avatar, and like no way she is that age. Also, Anubis as a 5.000 years old teen is like... no, riordan. It’s still being a bit weird. I wasn’t expecting the kiss >_< You could’ve made it an interesting exploration of the mutable qualities of the egyptian gods and the lack of like, modern standards of behavior, and then go ahead with the Walt-Anubis plotline. And after PJO and seeing the results of god-human unions... Play with what it means, but for the love of god, Sadie’s age >.>

But I loved her being obsessed with Adele bcs by then I was too. XD

TW INCEST. Here I go off the rails speculating for a parragraph on ancient egypt royalty and the kanes, if you don’t want to read it, close the tab or scroll past it, it’s nothing too dark, nor it’s explicit in any case. More like the result of reading too much weird fic. 

And really that no one (no god ever) ever mentioned the practice of marrying family in egyptian dynasties to horrorize or joke a little to carter and sadie? (i know my mind is perturbed but these two see each other when? once, twice a year a bit more in the lucky ones? honestly if this was and adult or even ya and the author another it’d been an interesting conflict treated seriously. keeping canon ending pairs et all!!)  Although carter knows for sure and just hasn’t clocked in what it means they’re the blood of pharaohs. Yup your ancestors x-generation removed were into incest for purity reasons. And know you’re the incarnation of the horus-pharaoh in earth too. Enjoy! (this is like in yu-gi-oh!! fandom where we pretend the concept didn’t exist bcs too serious and creepy to be treated seriously. and like atem died at 15? 16?)

END TW

 I guess they did the whole explaining the gods have the same relationship their vessels have with each other by feels-possesion double track influence, so that one is resolved, bcs if not it’d be beyond weird that isis is both their mother and the spouse of their osiris-julius and also sadie sometimes. Like, Kane Chronicles mythology is much much older than in other RR series and it tracks with the undercurrents of the trilogy (crap under the radar i think?) and how the gods acts i think.

But you see the above clusterfuck??? If RR had aged a bit the charas, bc is not as if Sadie is a real 12-13 years old, more like a 15-16 one at minimum with how she acts and the narrative treats her, and made Carter like 18-19? Thinking about what he wants out of life and uni, etc because for him it clocks with his arc. Or even older; I think that would be have been better but then it’d be another kind of book. Make Sadie the one starting uni and Carter the one finishing his master in egyptology bcs that’s all he’s known all his life, and he’s interested in it truly, and their father is still the one who wants to reunite the three for Sadie’s birthday going with Carter in plane from whatever university he’s in (could be one in egypt Julius has ties to) and it’s then when all goes to shit.

 The conflict, the stakes... You could treat the family conflict and well, the racial aspect of the books in more profundity. Maybe make them biracial but their father is afroamerican and the mother is british but descendant from egyptian immigrants, so yup. You have that connection with the original land of the myths, and Carter and Sadie perspectives on being poc shoe the contrast btwn the sister raised by her mother parents, and the brother by the father. But that’s need much more sensitivity than RR is able of. I wouldn’t dare to write that book alone, that’s for sure. 

 As I understand it there are more than some problematic elements to RR tendency to diversify his cast without doing profound analysis and research and using sensivity readers so. I’m south european white, I don’t have a real idea of all the messes he made with Kane Chronicles so I don’t have anything more say anything more about this. But yeah, it’d been another demography completely different from the original, and would have needed another author which I think would have suited the mood I get from this trilogy even now. 

We all know the errors RR makes like doubling down on romance forever saving the day and female characterization or his well. Well-intentioned if misguided discourse? (that cursed word) I’m all for social justice, but Magnus Chase read like a pamphlet at various points instead of being organically integrated in the story (KC and HoH have sometimes that problem but in MC is really blatant) who am I going to lie, although Magnus has fascinating potential as a protag.

 And Alex chara too, plus Hearth and Blitzen. I think he made a full on queer protag quartet without realising it (which is why Blitz and Hearth are those two guys instead of confirming any status. like just besties, or qrp or budding romance, which one? we can’t have full on queer quartet) plus Samira and his poor we’ll call it that, handle of her muslim lifestyle from what I’ve seen from muslim fans reviews. (so, my idea of sadie above wouldn’t been plausible) If she’s gonna marry make her at least older than 20? After finishing uni, which I think is something you usa (noarospec) people do regularly without religion or anything? But really marriages just make me go yikes anyway so. Do away with that plot point you don’t have to follow so exactly the myths. 

And so their charas aren’t explored with profundity. Although they could have been really interesting.

 And the ending was... meh. The point was the anticlimax, but Loki was well build enough in the two first books and the third was a deception honestly. 

But again, I think I also simply aged of his books + started noticing his fails. See above my KC tangent. Curiously I think the PJO books (not HoO) are good as they are... No urge to make charas older or anything. The dysfunction is different in both stories I feel.

 I KNOW! It’s because in KC we see the magician society and it’s full of adults and seriousness so it would have fit having two older teens-young adults be the protags, exploring it properly and so Carter and Sadie being the chiefs of the Brooklyn nome and the initiators of the gods path in contemporary times wouldn’t struck me as so weird. The nome politics ;_; We were robbed. 

Compare that to the ways PJO with its ephemeral demigod lives and constant death and youth as the one who bring the necessary change for the gods (plus the absence of older demigods coming back to help in TLO, be it bcs they’re done with greek gods or they’re dead, functions really well following Percy since he’s 12 to his 16 birthday and beyond if he had managed to do the roman fussion correctly. Make it so PJO ends with Percy and Annabeth at 16 and HoO alt series, starts 4-6 years later. Because the roman camp and its senate and norms and village are more serious and imply a heavy adult-political presence, with legacies etc; because the gods are starting to forget their promises; bring up the parallels with Luke and mentions of how live has been treating both Anna and Percy. Enrich the world and make the sequel interesting to your original audience who is much older than when they started reading the PJO books. 

Well. This is a fantasy...We know RR would never ;_; Although he’s done much for young fantasy. And know I’m searching the impossible fic.

[spoopercorp]

In my opinion, the majority of the Supergirl cast at SDCC was being more ignorant and insensitive rather than homophobic.

You have to be open to the possibility that maybe you’re misconstruing the situation, that what you see from the other side may not be an accurate representation of what actually happened, but yes, there is always the possibility that you are right.

Jeremy Jordan released two public apologies via Instagram that received backlash.

The first:

This one, I believe, received the most backlash for a formatting that is closer to that of a non-apology, of which I can see to an extent. It may be messy and imperfect, but he is human and can only learn from his mistakes. Many people did not like the fact that he said, “My track record for years has proven my love and utter devotion to the LGBTQ community.” because some people believe it is the equivalent of, “I have gay family/friends, I can’t be homophobic.”

But he is, I think, absolutely genuine with his intention in the apology, and the second part is more sincere, if you will.

He admitted his mistake, promised he would be better, and I personally have no doubt that he will try to do so in the future.

I said before that when you are attacked or criticized or hated, you are more likely to defend yourself. That is how humans work. If someone you knew was generally a kind and sweet person, but made a huge mistake, you are more likely to blame it on the person’s character. If it was the other way around and you made the mistake, you are more likely to blame it on external circumstances.

Mehcad Brooks’ apology is similar.

Yes, he made a comment similar to Jeremy Jordan’s “my track record” comment, and said something equivalent to “I cannot be homophobic, I am black”. And maybe he did not mean it to come out that way.

That is also another thing to address, because people who are gay can be racist/sexist and people who are black can be homophobic/sexist and people who are feminists can be homophobic/sexist. Most people know that being oppressed does not mean you cannot be the oppressor.

This is not trying to excuse what they did, but acknowledge that there are absolutely many variables within the situation at hand.

In the musical recap, they were having fun.

Okay, not a great reason, but everyone knows that when you are having fun, in the spur of each moment, you will not know if you are spouting anything out that is rude and offensive. They were not targeting the LGBT+ community, but maybe the actions they partook in are considered homophobic, but they are likely not themselves. They were being silly, having fun with each other, and laughing is scientifically proven to be contagious - it is a social thing whether or not you enjoy it, because most humans thrive off of it, and therefore, desire to be accepted. But, again, I know it does not excuse what they did.

Their intent was not to invalidate the LGBT+ community, but it did regardless, and you have every right to be upset. But think, just for a few seconds, to consider all sides. If you create something as an artist that you are so proud of and put so much time in and it is overlooked towards something you unintentionally created, you will likely feel upset. That one thing that you did not mean to do and put as much work in is being praised rather than the actual thing you are so proud of and want compliments for. Imagine that it is what the majority only talk about, it can get annoying.

Then there was the unnecessary interjection Chris Wood made about sexuality only being about perception of others. Again, ignorant and insensitive, but to his defense, he did say he was being sarcastic right after. I personally believe that was a homophobic comment. It is unfortunate for him that he is receiving a ton of hate attacking his personal life (because his character, Mon-El, is nothing like the comic counterpart and portrays someone who seems abusive), and when you shout at someone, you are likely to be shouted back at with the same force. Again, not excusing him, but more trying to develop an understanding of all sides.

To reiterate, I create art, whether it is in written or visual form, and I will likely be proud of my feat. There will be blatant haters, but when a fan articulately and professionally comments on how my work is portraying something unhealthy, it is a red flag. It is my job to at least take a second for myself to contemplate their words and the possibility without bias and acknowledge that though I did not intend to make it that way, it still had that affect.

They were also tired.

Okay, perhaps also not the greatest excuse for most.

SDCC panels are stressful for everyone, and I also believe it is very much so for celebrities attending. David Harewood makes a point that people may be “unfair” and “over the top” and blasting the situation out of proportion. My only qualm with his tweet is that he refers this outburst only originating from shippers when it is the entire LGBT+ community that has been affected. They might not be homophobic, but their actions could be read that way and will be used in the future to hurt the LGBT+ community and they are responsible for that.

They are also celebrities, they are constrained and choked in a suffocating environment that many fans burden their shoulders with.

Expectations. Ideals. Presumptions. Many unrealistic.

They are stuck within a tiny box of those specifications and the moment they resist or reach past it in any way, they receive hate. They are people, and like many other people, they may be agreeable on some matters and disagreeable on others; they have their own views. Those perfect ideas of humans people have, not just idols nor icons, are bad and unfair for both sides.

There are so many things that infuriated people at Supergirl’s SDCC.

From the announcement of The Ray and how it made Jewish coded characters like Supergirl and the Flash actual Nazis.

Which I personally loathe, so I cannot be as impartial on that matter.

To Melissa Benoist’s statements that Kara Danvers “lost her first ever boyfriend” as well as comparing it to her “losing her entire world”. She completely omitted a great black man in the first season that the latter was so head over heels with and seems to have compared a loss of a boyfriend to her losing her entire world - by extension forgetting that Kara Danvers still has Eliza, Lena, James, J’onn, Winn, and her sister Alex (I believe the Danvers sisters’ relationship is the most powerful in the show).

To the questions and panels circling around Mon-El constantly with barely any input on the Danvers sisters and the involvements of other important lead characters.

To the lack of addressing the problem with Mon-El’s character, which has been a huge controversy in numerous articles as well as plot holes with the rushed and messier writing.

To the theorizing and speculation people are making by watching videos, like the musical recap.

They are videos, you cannot really determine emotion nor intent and all they will ever be is speculation, because people are sharing statements that there is now cast drama (which I hope not) due to this incident. Katie McGrath and Odette Annable are receiving the least hate out of everyone (I am referring to cast members who were present, so I am leaving Chyler Leigh and Floriana Lima out) because (and some of these are fan speculations and may or may not be ridiculous to you)...

- Katie McGrath repeated that fans could take anything they wanted from the show and apparently Mehcad Brooks told her to “shut up” in Italian (zitta).

Honestly, the audio is not great and neither are human ears and it is just speculation. I do not know.

- Katie McGrath “dragged” the rest of the cast members by stating, “I brought it back to reality, you wanna go back to singing again?” as in referring to the musical recap in the video as well as leaning away and apparently tackling Chris Wood’s comment earlier about sexuality only being about perception and Odette Annable showing her support.

Again, speculation as I analyze with a neutral lens. Katie McGrath could be comfortable in that position. Or maybe she was actually uncomfortable with the situation. And the cast was singing shortly beforehand, it was probably not meant as shade. I do not know.

- Odette Annable did not laugh at the musical recap nor when the cast sang again about Daxam I think.

Maybe she does not find singing to be amusing? Or maybe she really thought the cast members were being rude about the musical recap. I do not know.

- There is a photo of Katie McGrath and it looks as if there are tears and people speculate it was due to her statement during the musical recap that allegedly went ignored by other cast members or something and now she is being ostracized.

More speculation, maybe she was so happy with fans she teared up, maybe the lights were too bright and her eyes were too dry. I do not know.

I do not know. No one knows for sure what is going on and hopefully everyone’s speculations above are wrong because the idea of supposed discourse and schisms within a cast of grown adults is honestly sad (someone said that cast members for a show were arguing before an interview, I do not know how reliable that information is).

If you have a problem with what happened, give your statements.

Don’t attack the actors’ and/or writers’ personal lives.

Most people will not pay attention to something that sounds aggressive or hateful. Educate them on the consequences of their actions in a professional manner, and if they shoot back with something immature or block you, then you are wasting your time and theirs. You are the consumer, you can move on and invest your emotions, money, and time on something that you consider is more worth your while.

[thegoddamnowl]

The bad part about being adult is that you gotta take heavy decisions that have a real impact on everything, even if you don’t believe it. Its also aggravating to see how basically any sort of enchant for the world and life in general seems to completely dissappear as well.

Of course some of us have already grown accustomed to this sort of thing even before adulthood, but there are things that one is just unsure how they will work out. For those cases the only thing that’s left is to just keep going and work hard.

I often look back into my earlier years, and ask to myself: “how has this come to be?” But is just foolish to ask oneself questions for which one already knows the answer.

Despite how things turned out back then, at times I somewhat wish I could have some of that attitude again. That attitude that had quite strong motivations when presented with them if valid; hell, I was even named as “new Da Vinci” or [insert name of prodigious and successful person here], but I realized later those were but delusions of grandeur, promises of the world for someone that did not know better.

At the very least I’d keep going forwards for an actually valid reason that is not just a hollow “go forward.” Because a life without a direction, a sense, a purpose, a goal, simply is not a life. Every single creature that exists has one of those, no matter how big or small they are. Hell, even the seemingly useless creatures that makes you wonder how they even survived for so long in the first place have one of these.

Even robots have that as well.

To lack any of those means you just exist for the sake of existing and nothing more.

I guess what I mean to say is that despite having relative success now I'm still pretty much dissappointed at how everything turned out and I’m still wandering without an ultimate end.

I have a decent income, but I have to sacrifice a significant part of my time and I’m beginning to grow dissappointed at my work as well. I like to work, and to work hard, but I like to do so with things I like, and sadly I’m not very accomodated yet with management systems or formal websites or location thingies or, well, overall politic stuff, which is not exactly what I had in mind when I took this path. To live you need money, because nothing is free and nothing will be given to you. This wouldn’t be much of an issue were it not because I’m almost done with college but after years of seeing how the system even on University is devolving into a game of “Do this, memorize that, bring these 20 homework/projects for tomorrow, or else” while throwing heavy emphasis on teamwork therefore blaming the whole for the wrongs of one of the parts while also ignoring the minorities with certain needs, has quite frankly killed any love I once had for school and with it any motivation beyond “i need a pretty piece of paper to open the next level”, and being now delayed by one year or so while also knowing my career is soon to be discontinued to make way for a practically improved version of it (which should I drop out I’ll have to start ALL over, that is if I’m even allowed to come back for starters) makes me think that I *should* have waited for this to happen right after highschool, instead of just going in like years past for the sake of just ending it. Being on the transitory stages of every educational level so far is definetively NOT a good thing.

And look that I don’t even have people that is waiting for me to go out or to visit. They either moved on or just respect my privacy, normally its the first thing. So yeah, work and school is the only life I have.

But now that I am practially on a relatively quiet place, with few to none discourses or arguments with anybody, and even a small core of people that is actually willing to try and make me part of their family despite just how awful I am as a person and overall a big failure of a project, makes me think: “I am fortunate. Despite everything, I managed to come this far and now I’m here.” And it makes me see the folly of my views, I should be taking advantage now more than ever, but instead I feel just as worse as before, because it makes me fully realize just how hard I’ve been fucked, and how hard I myself fucked up, but more importantly: there’s no way to fix it. Its just too late now.

When I said life is telling me “how are you not dead yet?” I wasn’t kidding. My mistakes are rubbed into my face everyday, seemingly out of pure spite despite the fact that I do try to do better.

It has never been easy, ever. Maybe I just had bad luck when born, maybe I just suck at life, but I fought my way here, and right now I am just tired, and I need to lay down. I needed a lay down since many years ago now.

And sadly, that lay down won’t come until my bones become dust and my memory fades away from the collective, or I find a way to start over. Soon I’ll be coerced to take a big decision. A life-changing decision that can only end up on a sour note. No, this is not suicide: I won’t say I haven’t considered it before and far too many times that I even want to admit, but I’m above that. In a way, I’m just too prideful to commit suicide.

Hopefully, if I work hard enough, my choice shall bring me what I’ve been looking for all these years. So, while that day doesn’t come, I’ll just keep on existing.