#it was a huge gamble as a plotline and i respect it for the bravery but woof. WOOF

[fakeosirian]

☕️ sinner arc?

O H B O Y

full disclosure i still have not done my note-taking s3 rewatch so i'm liable to misremember (or just not remember) things but i thiiiink i'm confident enough in this opinion to post. it's not supposed to be "discoursey" tho i'm focusing on my crits of this arc more than the compliments because that's what i've done more thinking about. thank you for enabling this and also i'm sorry because you've unleashed the beast <3

thesis statement: the sinner arc, as it is, is both totally natural and consistent with the narrative up to that point and also a HUGE break from the rest of the show tone-wise, craft-wise, and tbh emotionally to the point that i think that it was kiiiiiiiind of a mistake. or at least it's hindered by being the final arc of the show (not counting TOR). some of my sour grapes are just personal bias against certain kinds of "whittling down the cast" plots, but after thinking it over for a While, tbh it bothers me moreso because the things i would change are very simple and would make a world of difference craft-wise without really changing any of the major plot beats or undermining the good parts. (and thus it's disappointing to me that that's not what we got when i feel like the creative team already avoided those exact issues in earlier parts of the show...)

so ok. getting this out of the way: i may come off harsh on this arc because i find it very stressful to watch for personal reasons LMAO so i'll hand this to it: it's very good at getting the desired emotions out of me (extreme discomfort/despair), so if that's the only metric you're using to judge quality, there you go: it's good.

unfortunately it also makes me sad about the state of the characters in a way that...you could interpret as success? but this is the bit that, even accounting for my bias, i think is Not Good. let me explain:

s1 and s2 do an excellent job of manipulating implied perspective of scenes to put characters you're primed to dislike in slow-burn situations that at first exacerbate their flaws and then give them a shot at, not necessarily "redemption," but...imperfect mutual understanding. examples: victor perceived as literally murderous is revealed to be a victim (and later perpetrator) of a generational cycle of abuse; joy, as a victim of that cycle of abuse, lashes out and victimizes others; patricia, eddie, and jerome have more moments from their povs, so it's not quite as dramatic, but they experience a similar character arc as well.

on the flip side, you also get characters whose povs you get as your "main lens" (that can trick you into thinking youre viewing an objective pov) that have biases that become apparent as they interact with those "villainized" characters and react in ways inconsistent with the tone of the scene (thinking of nina and mara here primarily, but fabian also is a good example of this). that's how you get nina flipping out at the friends that SHE CURSED to the point that finally, FINALLY, she acknowledges that she's gone too far. (i should do a writeup on the curse arc and her behavior leading up to it because i think it's a fascinating commentary on the nature of being an "audience insert" that sort of gained sentience over time lol.) mara is self-explanatory here because she cannot help herself from cooking up the WORST possible response to a mundane relationship problem, and yet the tone of the scenes from her pov ends up being extremely sympathetic to her feelings (the way it's shot, edited, the music cues, etc.) in a way that fosters a really neat type of dissonance between text and subtext that doesn't signpost/announce itself until it's already Very There.

when these two different methods for handling character clash, as an audience, you're simultaneously told how to feel (those tonal cues i was talking about) but also left enough clues to change your mind (which i think the generally pro-joy tone of the discourse on this website is proof that people will do and is an intended potential experience of the show tbh). the moral/emotional result of that is a really neat commentary on subjectivity, how complicated reconciliation is, and how the only people too far gone to improve themselves are those who simply don't want to. the scene at the end of s2 with nina giving victor the tear makes me so emotional because it's an olive branch, an acknowledgment of the complicated nature of the situation and that victor has been a horrible person and made horrible choices in the past, but he does not have to keep doing that, and he does make the right choice when push comes to shove. same thing with joy in the senet arc (and i love that fabian is simultaneously the pov character and honestly the antagonist because of his inability to manage his emotions until the end), and honestly, same thing with patricia in early s1 re: her paranoia surrounding nina.

so what does this have to do with the sinners? well, they pretty much fly in the face of that entire writing philosophy on a fundamental, functional level, by design. considering "that philosophy" is just...earnest emotionally satisfying character writing in a story primarily driven by its characters and how they interact with one another over time...that's not great!

the leadup to a sinner capture is great. the afterwards is my issue. you take these characters who are in a narrative about not letting your flaws define you forever and you erase and overwrite their personality to be their singular greatest flaw, and then you reverse that and snatch away their memories to add insult to injury. that's not character regression (which is a completely legit avenue and is why the sinner captures are great in theory) -- it's anti-development, anti-human. it's certainly made worse by the fact that it's the show's final arc and thus the ex-sinners don't get a chance to process their experience on screen (needing that closure for myself is why i'm writing flat on your face lol), but even if it was addressed in the show in the best manner possible, it'd still feel cheap to me because it's agency-stripping and deeply cynical by design.

the thing is, this is deeply fixable. there's no singular way, but one i'm particularly interested in experimenting with is having the "sinner" be a sort of alter-ego that takes over in certain circumstances, subverting the conscious mind and leaving behind memory gaps and inconsistencies that lead the sinners to doubt themselves just as much as the other characters. it'd heighten the themes of misplaced trust that s3 is doing a lot of work with, and it would give the sinners a chance to still be their characters, have agency, continue to develop, and idk imagining a scenario where patricia or fabian is desperately begging someone to NOT trust them sounds fucking delicious to me. also other thing: it'd also fix something that's not really a "mistake" but just makes me sad, which is the fact that once a sinner is taken...that's pretty much it for their character as you know them for the rest of the show. like yeah, they're still there, but man, when the show was airing and fabian got taken, i straight up felt like he died, lol.

there's another issue that that proposed solution would sort of solve? but tbh is just another consequence of this type of plotline, which is: zero-sum game character development, or characters getting their quality/development sacrificed for the development of other characters. i do not like that patricia, easily one of the most complex and interesting characters on the show who goes back and forth between evolving and devolving as a person regularly in a way that feels sympathetic and consistent with her previous behavior and environment, has that progress torched and flattened for the sake of eddie's development. it's not necessarily poorly conceived or structured or illegitimate, but it's hella depressing for me to watch, personally. if it felt like she had more agency as a sinner (ie. the way sinners function being changed fundamentally), i wouldn't mind as much/it wouldn't feel like as much of a zero-sum sacrifice, but as it stands, her sinner capture and subsequent existence is completely centered on making eddie maximum miserable enough to move the plot forward. that's where i feel like i need to rewatch because that's certainly an uncharitable read, so that take is accompanied with a metric ton of salt!

that brings me to my other semi-gripe (less significant than the above but worth talking about): who specifically gets taken.

victor getting taken at all, but especially first, kinda rubs me the wrong way because following s2 where he was getting taken for a ride just as much as the kids were (if not more), its sad to see him flattened back into the caricature he was through the kids' pov in early-mid s1, except this time he's actually just like that. i do feel like taking victor is natural, though, so i'm not totally against him being a sinner/he's a character that i think can survive being made this sort of pseudo-"irredeemable" without being retroactively ruined because he's always been a tragic character. sweet, though should not have been taken, full stop, and i legit hate that as a writing choice.

when it comes to the kids, i understand the thinking behind taking old guard sibuna and it does appeal to me to have old vs new happening within the greater landscape of s3 and the show as a whole, but i think it's missing the trees for the forest a bit. it's too focused on the subtextual positioning rather than the material reality of what patricia, fabian, and alfie are feeling and doing as individuals -- not so much re: patricia and fabian (they were cruising for a bruising), but alfie. like idk alfie isn't always a saint but mara was right there. (jerome was right there. joy was right there. i dont necessarily think either of them would have made good sinners -- frankly they might have made me angrier actually and mara is PERFECT PERFECT IDEAL -- but they make more sense than alfie to me.)

re: fabian, his capture is easily the best scene of all the captures, despite the fact that it makes me physically ill (honestly because it makes me physically ill lol), and that's because it's founded in previous behavior (senet arc is basically the blueprint for the sinner arc in many, many ways) and exceptionally tragic to see as a result because you like him, but he's been off the rails lately. the thing is, i love him being messy, but i hate the permanence of the consequences, like all you need to do is have one (frankly deeply semantic) slipup of character, and boom, you're evil forever unless your bestie can clean up your mess. it's good writing, but the message it sends is nasty, which like i feel like i've probably said a million times in this post, is sort of the whole deal with the sinners.

tl;dr: the sinner arc is powerful emotionally, and i enjoy picking apart the effects it would have on the characters in fanfic (so i'm not full on pro-revisionism lol), but it's just too cynical for me to vibe with and enjoy watching. i love the rest of the show for how earnest and unwavering it is in its belief in people, so seeing it take that turn for the intensely cynical gut punch right at the end -- even if everything works out in the end -- will always be somewhat off-putting to me. i feel like there's more i want to say to further explain that, but i've already spun my wheels enough here, so i'll save it for a follow-up once i've finally cracked and done that deep-dive rewatch, lol.

tysm for asking!! <3