#it was literally jet being an ass and then the next scene was Zuko being a dork looking for iroh and I was like

[justa-smalltown-gargoyle]

I found myself watching the new live action ATLA and I was like omg this is such great set up for Zutara and their future dynamic !!!!!

And I got so caught up in the euphoria of my own Zutara thoughts that for like a minute I fully gaslit myself into believing that Zutara actually did happen and the live action was sowing the seeds for that relationship

[firelxdykatara]

Katara hated Zuko. It was a plot point. Sokka never did--and their "friendship" in the show was close to becoming something more--so they were on equal footing and had hinted romance. Zutara is misogynistic--why are you forcing Katara into a relationship with someone she hates? Choose Toph or Suki if you really believe Zuko isn't gay.

there’s so much to unpack here, and i know i should really throw out the whole suitcase, but i just can’t help myself

and please, i beg of you, picture someone laughing so hard that tears are streaming down their face because that’s me right now, reading this ask. i about choked on my eggnog, so thanks for that!

point the first: sokka hated zuko every bit as much as katara did in the first two books. it was a plot point. sokka wanted to leave zuko to die because saving him wouldn’t have been worth the trouble--he was pragmatic and deeply distrustful of anyone who wasn’t in his immediate circle, and that went especially hard for anyone from the fire nation. including the birds!

point the first part two: sokka’s easy acceptance of zuko into the gaang had less to do with any budding friendship or caring for him (since there was none to speak of until the boiling rock episodes), and more to do with a lack of any personal grudge. aka: there was no tension there. nothing to really dig into--no true development of feelings. because aang needed a firebending teacher, zuko was around and willing to take on that role, and also he was a prime roasting target, so sokka was happy enough to let bygones be after he helped them take down combustion man.

which, of course, isn’t to say shipping them isn’t valid. there are plenty of ships that have little to no canon basis but a lot of fandom support, and that’s usually fine....until the fans start getting uppity about it and insisting that there Is Canon Basis Really, and then insisting that the ‘rival’ ship is misogynistic when their alleged ‘canon basis’ requires stripping everything meaningful from the girl’s relationship to the boy and giving it to her brother instead. which is exactly what you’re doing here, but i digress.

point the second: how on earth was sokka and zuko’s ‘friendship’ in the show (and why the scare quotes? were they not actually friends? are you really sitting in my inbox right now devaluing their platonic relationship because you don’t think it exists outside of your belief that they really wanted to fuck the whole time, despite sokka being in a happy relationship with someone else?) ‘close to becoming something more’? when did they ever have a single, solitary conversation that hinted at any ‘deeper’ feelings? sokka spent most of their buddy cop adventure to boiling rock mooning over his girlfriend (heh, get it? mooning? because he- oh, you get the point), to the point where he had literal hearteyes the instant he saw her--and zuko’s purpose there wasn’t to deepen his relationship with sokka so much as it was to reunite sokka and katara with their father, and to see an example of what a healthy paternal relationship actually looks like.

(one of my favorite shots in the show is zuko’s soft smile when sokka and katara are hugging hakoda)

so already your claim that they ‘had hinted romance’ falls incredibly flat, because there was absolutely nothing in the show that was ‘hinting’ they had romantic feelings for one another--in universe or out of it. sokka was happily in love with suki, and even the one scene that i can imagine might make shippers scream--when zuko popped into sokka’s tent late at night--sokka was about to have sex with his girlfriend, and when he asked zuko ‘what’s on your mind’, the first words out of his mouth were your sister.

(and then, as soon as zuko left, sokka was calling for suki again. the next morning, he was making a flower necklace--or a lei. because he got lei’d. it’s amazing the things you pick up when you rewatch the show as an adult lmfao.)

point the third (and this one is really where your argument blows up in your face): your insistence that zutara requires ‘forcing katara into a relationship with someone she hates’ reveals your own ignorance, because it’s demonstrably not true--unless you’re trying to argue that katara hated zuko all the way through to the end of the show, which??? i suppose makes it make more sense that you think zuko and sokka had a hinted romance in the text, because viewing comprehension clearly isn’t your strongsuit.

why are yall so quick to dismiss katara’s own feelings in the name of calling a fictional, noncanon ship ‘misogynistic’? because katara said, in the text, ‘but I am ready to forgive you’--and then she hugged zuko, called him into a group hug with the gaang later, joked (and even flirted) with him on ember island, helped talk him through his anxiety about facing his uncle, and happily agreed to go with him to face his sister, where she saved his life after watching him take a literal bolt of lightning to save hers.

if any of that had happened with sokka, yall would be calling it demonstrable evidence that zuko and sokka are in love. and yet when we use that canonical buildup and the deep bond of friendship and trust zuko and katara have by the end of the series to imagine them getting into a romantic relationship because of feelings developed during these events......you call us misogynistic? really? because we’re ‘forcing’ her into a relationship with someone she ‘hates’....except she didn’t hate him by the end of the series, they were very close friends and had gotten over and had closure from their personal baggage, and that’s the kind of stuff that provides excellent fuel for envisioning a romantic relationship developing!

so what was your argument again?

ETA: i was so busy deconstructing the bulk of your argument that i forgot to address that laughable last line--toph or suki? who had much, MUCH less relationship development with zuko than katara did?? ‘if you really believe zuko isn’t gay’???? im sorry that you can’t recognize a whole bisexual when you see one, but as a bi myself, i know that zuko’s dual-wielding ass couldn’t ‘pick a side’ if his life depended on it. and he had more romantic coding with both jet and katara than he ever had with sokka--that’s just a fact. sorry if the truth hurts, anon!

[bullshittierlists]

I see no god up here other than me

Ty Lee- Ty Lee is best girl and I find it hard to argue with that statement. She’s just so bouncy and cute and honestly really powerful for not being a bender. I mean, the ability to paralyze someone on contact, much less being able to pinpoint specific parts of the body to paralyze, it’s just incredible. She was so cute in that beach episode because all the guys hit on her, which of course they do, have you seen how cute she is? I’m not super on board with her backstory, but it wasn’t a huge part of her character, so it’s fine.

Sokka- The man, the myth, the legend. It’s been said before, but the only reason Sokka couldn’t bend is because the creators knew he’d be too powerful. That’s the same reason he has to put his hair up. Also, he’s totally bi, change my mind.

Jet- I have several friends that watch this show and that watched the show before me. They all knew that I’d like Jet because he’s a “backstabbing traitor” despite their hatred of him and I guess I have a trend of liking those characters. I jokingly agreed with them and was excited to meet him. Little did I know just how much I would fall in love with him. A lot of my friends say that it’s just because he’s cute or he’s a sad boy, but there are honestly so many reasons to love him. I absolutely adore psychology and deep-diving into the minds of characters and his mentality is so intriguing. You would think this would lean me more towards Zuko, then. But Zuko gets so much focus that his psychology is always precedent, right front and center. But Jet doesn’t get that spotlight. I originally liked him more because he was under-appreciated, but now I realize just how amazing he is. At a very surface level, his actions are bad. He’s trying to murder innocent people for the sake of getting rid of a few fire nation soldiers. But as soon as you look deeper into his intentions, you can clearly see how badly he wanted to do good. These types of characters are always the saddest, the characters who think they are helping the world by destroying it. They legitimately think that the actions they are taking are the right ones even when everyone around them thinks otherwise. Other examples of this type of character are JD from Heathers and even Hector from Castlevania to some extent. Yes, he acknowledges that he will be sacrificing innocent lives. But he also knows that he will be saving lives in the future by going through with the dam plan. There’s so much more I could say about him, but I’ve been rambling for long enough.

Zuko- There’s nothing I could say about Zuko that hasn’t been said before. I already gushed about Jet for entirely too long, so have this instead: Sokka and Zuko have a wonderful relationship and I think that both parties could have benefitted greatly from being together romantically. Thank you.

You’re the best

Iroh- What can I say? He’s a good old man with lots of wisdom that we should all take to heart.

Momo- Some of my favorite parts of the entire show were scenes with Sokka and Momo just vibing. There should’ve been more emphasis on Sokka’s relationship with the animals in general.

Appa- I was really excited when Sokka started flying on Appa without Aang the first time, because I thought that meant that Sokka had created a really unique bond with Appa and was the only other one that could fly him. I was mistaken and incredibly upset.

Teo- He’s just a cute boy. I like his goggles.

Hey, I think you’re pretty cool, I like you a lot

Azula- Oh boy. There’s so much here to say, but she’s been analyzed to death, so I won’t go on for too long. As much as I would’ve loved to see Azula on the “good guy” team, I’m really glad she didn’t get a redemption. Not her, specifically, but more the villains in general. Zuko’s redemption was marvelous and there’s nothing that will ever top it, but if Azula had also gotten that redemption, his would’ve been downcast. It would’ve showed that anyone’s capable of a redemption and that he wasn’t special, he was just lucky to have that change of heart. Which maybe that’s still true, but at least with the ending we got, we give Zuko that spotlight. But back to Azula, she’s pretty cool, as the category would suggest. The Girl Gang (Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee) were a treat to watch and I instantly fell in love with all three of them as soon as they were introduced. Then they had to change to the Gayng once Zuko joined and I still loved all of them.

Longshot- It was super powerful when he spoke for the first time in Jet’s “death” scene. That was the first time he had said anything and he made it count. He helped show how even thought Jet is a “bad guy” at the surface level, he was still good enough of a leader and a friend for his group to stay with him in his ultimate time of need.

Suki- She’s badass. That’s about it. All parts of The Boiling Rock were my favorite episodes and they featured her pretty heavily in the back half. And I was not complaining.

Toph- Again, badass.

Aang- He’s the main character. I don’t have any super negative things to say or any super positive things to say. So he’s just here.

Kuei- I know he doesn’t do anything, like at all, but I can’t get over him and his bear.

Yue- When I started watching this show, I knew about some of the ships and I wasn’t super into it. Which was weird, because I’m always super into shipping. I wouldn’t have watched some of my favorite shows if it weren’t for the shipping aspect. But I just couldn’t get on board with it in this show. Aang and Katara felt kinda forced and weird, Sokka and Suki was alright, but I couldn’t quite get into it. But when I first saw Sokka and Yue interacting, I was enthralled. I was in love with their relationship and I thought it was so cute. I was genuinely excited to see where their relationship would go. But you know what happened next.

Mai- When I first met Mai, I loved her. She was an emo girl that just didn’t want anything to do with anything. Obviously, I still love her, but just slightly less. Something happened to her in the third season, and though I can’t pinpoint quite what, I have a feeling it was Zuko. I’m not a huge fan of Mai and Zuko’s relationship and I’ll possibly elaborate on that in a future post, but it really felt like the worst possible scenario for both of their characters. I do like Mai and Ty Lee together, but the shipping doesn’t really have anything major to do with it. She just dropped in quality a little in the third season and became a love interest instead of a character.

Kyoshi- Peace was never an option.

I remember you

Cabbage guy- This is normally the type of character I’d put at the top of the list and use as a joke to pretend like I especially enjoy the joke characters. Sometimes I do, but this list’s tone was a little different than usual, so I figured I’d put him where I really thought he should go. He was funny, sure, but I don’t religiously follow him like I do Ty Lee and everyone else in the top tier.

The other characters in this tier are in no particular order. Most of them are here just because I remember seeing them a little bit, but I don’t really remember much about them or I remember just not caring.

You are literally the worst. Actual scum. Leave this planet and never return.

Haru- This is more directed towards his newly-grown facial hair. He was so cute in his first appearance and then he had to do that. Even Sokka’s “I flirt with everyone” bisexual ass thought it was grody.

Hama- Nothing against her, personally, bloodbending’s just gross.

Zhao- He’s a typical villain. I can appreciate that, I just don’t like him.

Katara- This will take some explaining. It’s unpopular, but so is everything I say. I think of Katara in about the same way I do Allura. She was bearable in the first season, annoying in the second, and flat-out awful in the third. I understand that characters should have flaws, and I appreciate when they do, but her flaws aren’t necessarily treated as such. The worst offender I can think of with her is when she accused Sokka of not missing their mom as much as she did. This broke my heart. Seeing Sokka’s depressed face as he realized what his sister thought of him. He had been seeing her as sort of a replacement for their mom, but she accuses him of moving on without a second thought despite how much effort he puts into remembering her. This obviously isn’t the only bad thing she’s done. Another huge offender is when she assumed losing her mom was worse than Aang losing his entire nation. And then the show just keeps moving like she’s justified in thinking that. She’s done so many other things that caused other characters to halt in their development or causing the plot to just stop completely. Most of her actions are nonsensical at best and harmful at worst, but the show portrays her as always being a caring motherly figure. She does act like that at times, but we still need to acknowledge when she doesn’t.

Ozai- Literally the same as Zhao except he hurt Zuko physically AND emotionally.

[firelxdykatara]

If Zutara were to be canon,thanks to Aaron Ehasz,how will this affect Legend Of Korra?

This is a difficult question to answer, mostly because it would of necessity rely on a whole lot of assumptions and biases, and without asking Aaron himself (in private, where he wouldn’t have to worry about kicking off another fandom war), it’s impossible to answer with any degree of certainty.

Now, I can talk about how I, personally, think things would have been different if Zutara had been canon–which, for me, means that the epilogue of book 3 was just the tea shop scene, and we got a book 4 where, as Aaron briefly mentioned on twitter and in various interviews, the consequences of energy-bending were explored, the lost Air Nomads were found, Azula had her redemption arc (which would probably have tied into the search for Ursa, which I would’ve loved to see Aaron’s take on in book 4, especially considering the crap the comics handed to us), and Zuko and Katara grew closer and entered into a relationship by the end of the season.

(Before I start exploring this in more depth, I want to head off ‘delusional Zutarian’ arguments at the pass–I’m not saying it’s 100% confirmed that Aaron was planning to make ZK canon in book 4. I am saying (as I’ve said before) that, given the set up and development in canon, and the way Aaron himself has talked about how he develops characters and relationships, I believe he (and other writers/artists/crew members) was leaning heavily towards that particular relationship and would have explored it further in book 4 had he been allowed to.)

Putting the rest under a read more cause this got long.

We know some of what Aaron had plans for–Azula’s redemption, the consequences of energybending, the lost Air Nomads–but nothing super concrete. Going from that, then, I believe that in Book 4, the Gaang would have split up for a good chunk of it. (Please note that most of the rest of this is pure speculation.) There’s a lot of ground Book 4 would’ve had to cover–the Gaang in the beginning would’ve split off to head to their respective homes (Sokka and Katara to the SWT, Suki to Kyoshi Island, Toph… ok, Toph probably just stuck around Caldera and this would’ve been a great time to have the Toph&Zuko life-changing-field-trip episode we were denied in canon) to touch base with the families and friends they’d left behind to go on their save-the-world tour.

For his part, Aang would’ve returned to Guru Pathik. While he got a last-second Hail Mary (in the form of a conveniently placed rock, which still boggles my mind, but whatever) when fighting Ozai, he still was not a fully realized Avatar, and since I’m bitter that the Guru Pathik/chakras plot was almost entirely dropped after the book 2 finale, I’m saying he’d have gone back to finally finish that training because it makes sense and because I can. Anyway, he returns to the Guru, and by this point he has accepted that Katara doesn’t return his feelings the way he’d like her to (a call back to The Fortuneteller, which should have been foreshadowing for Aang’s emotional growth, barring the last twenty seconds of the episode).

Furthermore, he’s learned that ‘letting her go’ doesn’t mean he can’t care about her or want her in his life to be the Avatar (after all, previous Avatars have had love and even been married–Kuruk isn’t that great of an example, given that his love life got him killed, but Kyoshi lived over two centuries and had multiple loves over her incredibly long life, and Roku was married and had descendants of his own), it just means letting go of his expectations–letting go of the selfish aspects of his love, the parts that lead him to nod in agreement when actors on a play told fake!Katara ‘I thought you were the Avatar’s girl’, and that lead him to expect her to return his feelings and push against her boundaries when she told him she wasn’t sure and was confused. (He said “We kissed at the invasion and I thought we were gonna be together, but we’re not.” even though a) he kissed her without any warning, she did not kiss him, and she looked away and frowned afterwards, and b) she never once brought up the kiss again or hinted that her feelings towards him had changed and become romantic, so he had no reason to believe they’d ‘be together’.)

Ok that was a bit of a tangent, but the upshot is, Guru Pathik helps Aang fully master the Avatar State. While on that particular journey, Aang has to deal with the consequences of energybending–he pulled Ozai’s energy into himself, and he has to deal with the sudden darkness that was absorbed into his spirit. He also receives some sort of hint, possibly from a dream or meeting with a spirit, that with balance returning to the world, the Air Nomads can start to return, too.

Sokka, Suki, and Toph wind up going with Aang on his journey to figure out just what the spirits meant by that. They discover that the Air Nomads weren’t totally eradicated by Sozin (which would’ve been impossible, since we already know that inter-nation relationships happened in the past [Avatar Kyoshi’s mother was an airbender], and they were, well… nomads), but those who survived (because they weren’t at the temples at the time, or some who hadn’t attained mastery managed to escape) assimilated into the Earth Kingdom and even some in the Fire Nation. Because the world was incredibly out of balance following the decimation of the Air Nomad population, and because many of them were suddenly in a situation where showing they were airbenders was a death sentence, their spirit as a population was almost completely broken, and they stopped being able to airbend. In the present, Aang finds descendants of Air Nomad survivors, including Ty Lee (and, in my HC, Jet, who shows up alive bc I want him to get the healing arc he didn’t get in canon) who are beginning to discover they can airbend.

Meanwhile, Zuko asked Katara to accompany him on his journey to find his mother–it’s a callback to TSR, when he helped her gain closure for her mother’s murder, and since he wants to bring Azula too, he asked for Katara’s help sister-wrangling. They eventually find Ursa (who did not willingly forget her children, and who did not send a letter to her former lover to make Ozai question Zuko’s paternity, because in the show she was not a horrible person and she loved her children more than anything tyvm), as well as Kiyi (the only good thing to come out of that comic), and Azula finally gets the sort of closure she could never have before, and there is a heavy focus on her emotional journey. Zuko is there to support her, and Katara is there to support Zuko. In the process, Katara winds up with an odd sort of mildly antagonistic friendship with Azula, who gets to a point where she can good-naturedly tease Katara about her growing feelings for Zuko.

ANYWAY. I realize you were asking primarily how it would affect LoK, and I went on a whole ass book 4 tangent. So here’s how I see it changing the landscape in LoK.

First of all, Katara is granted the importance she is due. She has a statue in most major cities, including both Caldera and Republic City. Katara married Zuko and became one of the most beloved Fire Ladies in Fire Nation history, partly because she didn’t assimilate and give up her own home and culture, and she never hesitated to speak her mind during council meetings. It put off much of the nobility, especially in the first few years of their marriage, but Zuko had survived many an assassination attempt by then, and he valued his wife’s input above his closest advisors and never made a secret of it. The nobles could either accept it or risk losing their titles, which several of them did because they figured the Fire Lord was bluffing, only to find out he wasn’t in the slightest.

Katara was also active in the White Lotus, which she wound up leading along with Sokka and Zuko (who’d passed the mantle of Fire Lord onto their eldest daughter, Izumi, once they felt she was ready to lead), and when Aang passed away, they immediately began the search for the next Avatar.

Most of Korra’s early life would’ve been the same, Katara and Sokka saved her from the Red Lotus’ kidnapping attempt, and she wound up raised at the White Lotus compound where she learned waterbending, firebending, and earthbending, and was on the cusp of learning airbending from Tenzin (who was Aang’s kid with someone else–given his design, his mother could’ve been literally anyone, Toph or one of the returned Air Nomads or someone else entirely) when he got called back to Republic City, and she followed.

From here, well… ok, there’s a lot I would change about LoK just in general. Thinking specifically of how Zutara would have affected things, and with the stipulation that Aaron was still the head writer for LoK, I like to think that Katara wouldn’t have been rendered weak and useless (seriously, a bloodbender locked away Korra’s bending, but Katara–allegedly the most powerful waterbender alive, and the one who single-handedly got bloodbending outlawed–couldn’t undo it with bloodbending???), and would have been allowed to, for example, fight to protect her family (while Tenzin and his children wouldn’t have been her direct relations [unless, instead of Pema, he wound up marrying Zuko and Katara’s youngest daughter??? that’s an idea], they would still have been family, as Aang’s only living descendants) and taken a more active part in the water tribe civil war (which would have been given the narrative arc it was due instead of being a half-assed vehicle for ridiculous spirit world shenanigans). And besides, a gaang reunion episode where Zuko, Katara, Suki (because screw LoK for having her just up and disappear lmfao) and Toph fight the Red Lotus together just like old times??? That would’ve been fucking amazing.

(We got to see old ass men in AtLA fight like they were in their prime, including one who was over a century old. What was LoK’s excuse???)

Since we got the return of the Air Nomads in book 4 of LoK there would be no need for the spirit portals or the ‘harmonic convergence’, and instead Korra’s spiritual journey hinges on her trauma from the end of Book 1. The biggest difference, here, is that I have always been incredibly dissatisfied with the fact that Korra just stared sadly over the edge of a cliff and was suddenly able to unlock the Avatar State and get her bending back. Keeping in mind the way Aaron Ehasz excelled at character journeys in the original show, I think she should have ended book 1 with her bending locked completely. Katara was able to reverse whatever it was Amon did to her (and Amon, by the way, didn’t get killed–the Equalists also didn’t just disappear, and the thread of nonbender oppression carries through the rest of the series, to be revisited and finally resolved in book 4), but it didn’t give Korra her bending back, because the trauma she suffered was just as psychological as it was a physical block to her bending.

Book 2, therefore, would’ve included a narrative thread of Korra needing to go on her own spiritual journey to unlock her chakras and regain her bending, finally able to reac the Avatar State when the civil war between the water tribes reached a head, and she is finally able to broker peace, having learned a great deal about herself and her connection to the past avatars.

I realize that I’ve kind of derailed pretty far off the original point, so I’ll stop here with a general note that while Zutara, as a relationship, doesn’t affect a whole lot of this directly (for the most part it would just affect the parentage of the Gaang kids who showed up, the designs of some, and their relationships with each other and possibly with Korra)–however, with the addition of Book 4 and keeping Aaron’s writing talents for LoK, the landscape of the entire sequel would be altered. I’d like to think that he would’ve preferred writing a coherent narrative that did justice to the characters even if it meant ending the show with unresolved plot threads (especially since they could wrap things up with comics which, in this alternate timeline, are actually good and in character because I want to have my cake and eat it too), so rather than being disconnected plots that didn’t make much sense when each individual villain could’ve served as the entire series Big Bad, much of books 2 and 3 would’ve involved smaller scale plots and villains, with Amon returning for book 4 and everything getting wrapped up far more neatly than it did in canon.

TL;DR: while Zutara itself wouldn’t necessarily change a whole lot (it would affect Book 4 and the post-atla comics more) outside of the different Gaang kids and their dynamics, the show as a whole would’ve been vastly different if the writing team for LoK had been the same–including Aaron as head writer–as the writing team for AtLA.

Bryke were great Big Picture guys, great vision and visual guys, I’ve never disputed that. But they sucked at not missing the forest for the trees. They sucked at romance. And they really sucked at coherent plot and character development, especially in the small scale.