#it's a terribly complicated situation and a great arc but man does it hurt

[bistaxx]

God the qRoier and Pepito situation just continues to break my heart... like... qRoier is just NOT in the right state of mind right now to be watching over a child but he's the only parent Pepito has right now... it's all just so unfair and cruel for both of them, Pepito especially whose just an innocent child thrown into this mess- And the only one who seems to be cluing in on Roier's poor mental health rn is Bad who can only help so much seeing as he's also not doing great right now to put it lightly.

It just hurts so bad having watched qRoier from the start... he was the one who'd often take in and care for the eggs who were left by their parents so to go from that to seeing how he treats Pepito now... :(

[jackoshadows]

what i don’t understand is sansa stans who insist that she learnt from the best (cersei ans littlefinger) and so she’ll be an amazing ruler and player. first of all, when did she learn about the game from cersei? she was a hostage in kings landing, she wasn’t sitting in on small council meetings or anything and cersei definitely wasn’t telling her about all the moves she was making. the only time cersei really gives her ‘advice’ is during blackwater when she says that ‘tears/sex is a woman’s weapon’. regardless, cersei isn’t someone you want to be taught from, she makes terrible decision after terrible decision in affc. (since we’re on this topic, dany is the younger and more beautiful queen who foils cersei).

as for littlefinger, he’s definitely not a leader or ruler. he subtly manipulates things here and there and gets away with a lot of it because he stays under the radar. he’s not someone who inspires devotion for sure. nothing about the vale arc in affc puts sansa in an actual leadership position.

I agree it's best that no one learns how to be a ruler from Cersei Lannister, considering how much she messes up in AFfC.

And yes, it’s my opinion that Sansa's arc is leading towards outwitting Littlefinger and understanding how to play the game rather than ruling. And with two books left to go, she still has a lot of learning to do and being able to process the information available to her, analyze it and connect the dots and use the data to her advantage.

I just finished my ADwD and TWoW sample chapter re-reads so a rather long essay under the cut.

Sansa did acknowledge early on that unlike Cersei, if she were to become queen, she would prioritize getting the people's love over their fear - like the Tyrells did. But unlike the majority opinion of fandom, I think that this points to Sansa giving more importance to PR than to actual ruling. That it was better to be a loved monarch than a feared one.

It’s funny that Sansa stans often point the finger at Dany as being narcissistic, entitled and arrogant, when the few comments that Sansa makes about being queen revolve around her.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace. ” - Sansa, AGoT

“ If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.”  - Sansa, ACoK

Compare her quotes to those of current leaders/rulers in the books:

A good lord protects his people, he reminded himself. - Bran, ACoK

“Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?“ - Daenerys, ASoS

“And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.” Davos, ASoS

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."  - Stannis, ASoS

“I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?”  - Jon Snow, ADwD

The other leaders in the quotes are putting the people first, prioritizing the people’s needs first no matter how much it affects the rulers themselves. Jon’s decision to let the Wildlings through the wall is necessary, but highly unpopular among his men. And ruling is more than just being beloved by the people -

"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same council that I one gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took the ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” - Jon Snow, ADwD

This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard.  How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. - GRRM

In this context, Sansa’s quote about being queen comes off as naive, ignorant, fairy taleish, like the queens in her stories - where everyone loves the queens and that’s all that’s necessary to be one.

It’s easy for Sansa stans to nitpick and criticize each and every one of Dany’s decisions and then praise future best queen Sansa - who has done absolutely nothing as a leader and has instead thus far served as an uncritical narrator to events around her. We don’t know what kind of leader Sansa would be because she has never been put in those situations or even shown an aptitude for strategic thinking.

Let me use an example I came across while recently re-reading ADwD and TWoW sample chapters. TWoW spoilers - if you don’t want to be spoiled on TWoW, please read no further.

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In ADwD, Jon is confronted with food shortage if they let the Wildlings through the wall:

“If we had sufficient coin, we could buy food from the south and bring it in by ship,” the Lord Steward said. We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. - Jon Snow, ADwD

I have already written extensively on Jon’s political know-how of the North and using it in his strategizing and planning of Stannis’ campaign. But here we see that his knowledge extends to the south, where, knowing that the Vale stayed neutral during the WOT5K and it’s geography of being fertile, he sees it as a possible source to buy food for the Wall.

Now let’s go to the Vale in book 6, TWoW, Alayne’s sample chapter. After being called a bastard by Harry the Heir, a hurt Sansa goes looking for Littlefinger and chances upon a scheme of price gouging:

Near the bottom, she heard Lord  Grafton’s booming voice, and followed.

“The  merchants are clamoring to buy and the lords are clamoring to sell,”  the Gulltowner was saying when she found them. Though not a tall man, Grafton was wide, with thick arms and shoulders.  His hair was a dirty blond mop.  “How am I to stop that, my lord?”

“Post guardsmen on the docks. If need be, seize the ships. How does not matter, so long as no food leaves the Vale”

“These prices, though,” protested fat Lord Belmore,” 

“These prices are more than fair. Wait. If need be, buy the food yourself and keep it stored. Winter is coming. Prices must go higher.”

“Perhaps,”  said Belmore, doubtfully. “Bronze Yohn will not wait, ” Grafton complained. “He need not ship through Gulltown, he has his own ports. Whilst we are hoarding our harvest, Royce and the other Lords Declarant will turn theirs into silver, you may be sure of that.”

“Let  us hope so,”  said Petyr. “When their granaries are empty, they will  need every scrap of that silver to buy sustenance from us. And now if  you will excuse me, my lord, it would seem my daughter has need of me.”

“Lady Alayne,” Lord Grafton said. “You look bright-eyed this morning.” ” You  are kind to say so, my lord. Father, I am sorry to disturb you, but I  thought you would want to know that the Waynwoods have arrived.”

We are now in book 6 territory, this would be the point where a future queen/leader Sansa reflects on what she just saw - Littlefinger is hoarding grain and letting Royce and others sell theirs so that he can later increase the prices for demand from a starving populace and have the rest of the Vale Lords be dependent on him and with winter coming, there is currently much demand for the grain.

This would be where, if GRRM is writing for the future leader of the North, Sansa would wonder what is happening in the North with respect to the food situation since she just heard that merchants are clamoring for grain and winter is coming. Or she would think on LF’s scheme - is it a good plan or a bad plan? Does she think that Yohn Royce is right to sell his grain? What is her view on hoarding all the food for price gouging while people possibly starve elsewhere? What does she think of starving the populace for profit? Does she approve? Or does she think it’s ethically wrong?

We get no answers to these questions to give us a hint of what kind of ruler future best queen Sansa will be. It’s a blank slate because while Sansa acts as a narrator here and describes one of LF’s little schemes, she herself as no opinion on it. Instead Sansa’s immediate concern when speaking to Littlefinger is that Harry the Heir called her a bastard in front of everyone. Meanwhile Dany in ADwD:

Skahaz had been named Warden of the River, with charge of all the ferries, dredges, and irrigation ditches along the Skahazadhan for fifty leagues, but the Shavepate had refused that ancient and honorable office, as Hizdahr called it, preferring to retire to the modest pyramid of Kandaq.

Mounted men were of more use in open fields and hills than in the narrow streets and alleys of the city. Beyond Meereen's walls of many-colored brick, Dany's rule was tenuous at best. Thousands of slaves still toiled on vast estates in the hills, growing wheat and olives, herding sheep and goats, and mining salt and copper. Meereen's storehouses held ample supplies of grain, oil, olives, dried fruit, and salted meat, but the stores were dwindling. So Dany had dispatched her tiny khalasar to subdue the hinterlands, under the command of her three bloodriders, whilst Brown Ben Plumm took his Second Sons south to guard against Yunkish incursions.

The most crucial task of all she had entrusted to Daario Naharis, glib-tongued Daario with his gold tooth and trident beard, smiling his wicked smile through purple whiskers. Beyond the eastern hills was a range of rounded sandstone mountains, the Khyzai Pass, and Lhazar. If Daario could convince the Lhazarene to reopen the overland trade routes, grains could be brought down the river or over the hills at need …

The sea provides all the salt that Qarth requires, but I would gladly take as many olives as you cared to sell me. Olive oil as well."

"I have none to offer. The slavers burned the trees." Olives had been grown along the shores of Slaver's Bay for centuries; but the Meereenese had put their ancient groves to the torch as Dany's host advanced on them, leaving her to cross a blackened wasteland. "We are replanting, but it takes seven years before an olive tree begins to bear, and thirty years before it can truly be called productive. What of copper?"

Sansa does not come anywhere close to Dany and Jon in terms of leadership and that she’s so often pushed as this future queen in fandom, including by bnfs and so called asoiaf experts, is baffling, frustrating and hilarious.

What, if any, attributes does Sansa have to even be a peacetime ruler? After the war means rebuilding from scratch, making deals, hard bargaining, strategizing, using political tools, rebuilding the economy for war torn lands, get in the food, grow the food - precisely the kind of thing Dany is doing in Meereen. Or Jon thinking of building green houses in the Gift to grow food.

But Sansa building a snow model of Winterfell means that she’s the best qualified peace time ruler? Reddit dudebros and so called tumblr feminists united in wanting female characters who wield soft power and uphold the patriarchy as future rulers.

Even when it comes to personal growth, while Sansa has come a long way from her AGoT days, she still has some catching up to do with her peers. After getting hold of LF, Sansa complains that Harry is a horrible person for calling her a bastard.

Come,” Petyr said, “walk with me.” He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon. “And how was your first meeting with Harry the Heir?”

“He’s horrible.”

“The world is full of horrors, sweet. By now you ought to know that. You’ve seen enough of them.”

“Yes,” she said, “but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone.”

Now, personally, this is the point where I would like some introspection from Sansa. Remember when Sansa called out Jon as a jealous bastard in front of her friends in AGoT and Arya defended him?

Sansa sighed as she stitched.  “Poor Jon,” she said.  “He gets jealous because he's a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

“Our half brother,” Sansa corrected, soft and precise. - Arya, AGoT

Considering the way Sansa ignored Joffrey’s attack on Arya, it’s a good bet that if Harry the Heir had called out Jon Snow as a bastard in front of everyone in AGoT, Sansa would not have an issue with it. Now that she is being insulted as one, she gets to experience the hurt that Jon felt everyday growing up in Winterfell as a real bastard.

But even here, she refuses to scrutinize the situation more than simply getting angry at being called a bastard. Sansa is often held up as this compassionate, kindest person, ‘beacon of hope for the future’, a queen who cares for the masses etc. But where is her questioning why the classist prejudice against bastards is in itself wrong?

She is angry that she is being called a bastard, she is not angry that bastards are treated as less than. She doesn’t question the societal prejudice against bastards, only angry that she has to pretend to be one and be insulted as one. She doesn’t spare a second reflecting on her bastard brother Jon Snow or question her low opinion of bastards:

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn’t been some mistake. - Sansa, AGoT

And that’s the difference I see between Sansa and characters like Dany, Arya, Jon, Brienne and even with Tyrion and Penny. While GRRM interrogates Westerosi society prejudices, feudalism, classism, sexism, slavery, ableism, bigotry, the effects of war on the small folk etc with these other characters, Sansa rarely reflects on these issues. That’s why it makes no sense when epithets like ‘embodiment of hope for the future’ is used to describe the character. Hope for whom? The small folk? The patriarchy? The feudal lords?

Sansa being nice to people like the stuttering Ser Wallace is held up as her being the kindest ever. But Jon is nice to Shireen, Arya is kind to Weasel, Jaime is kind to Tyrion. Why is kindness and compassion only highlighted for Sansa, like some unique feature of hers when many characters, even the villains, exhibit kindness?

This is Jon Snow in ADwD

“I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first?” He laughed. “If you mean to kill me, do it and be damned for a kinslayer. Stark and Karstark are one blood.”

“My name is Snow.”

“Bastard.”

“Guilty. Of that, at least.”  - Jon Snow, ADwD

This is Sansa Stark in TWoW:

Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”  

“Yes,” she said, “but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone.”  - Alayne, TWoW

Sansa in TWoW is as hurt by the bastard moniker as Jon Snow was in AGoT when addressed as such by Tyrion. She’s emotionally where Jon Snow was in AGoT, while Jon has matured enough to not care for such insults anymore. And this is book 6! I guess it makes sense considering Jon is 16 -17 and Sansa would be 13 - 14 years old, making her younger than him in AGoT. But this is why the whole ‘Jon should take Sansa’s advice to rule because she’s the smartest ever!’ trash the show pushed to hype up Sansa is complete nonsense.

I don’t know how many chapters GRRM will be devoting to Sansa in the Vale in TWoW, but there’s still a lot of growth and character development pending for book Sansa. As I have always said, Sansa has a lot of information but she rarely if ever introspects on what she has heard and seen. She knows that LF last had Jeyne Poole but at one point wonders where Jeyne Poole is... Just ask LF dammit! She knows that Lysa had Jon Arryn poisoned on LF’s say so and knows that SweetRobin is being dosed with dangerous levels of Sweetsleep and that LF is banking on his death and yet thinks that SweetRobin will be okay. She needs to start putting two and two together to come up with four and I suspect that in itself will take up the whole of TWoW.

So will Sansa become any kind of queen or ruler? No. If she survives the books, I can see her being Lady of the Vale and be moving the chess pieces around. I can see her gaining agency and maybe even be the real power in the Vale aka Littefinger. Just like Jon, Arya, Bran and Dany I think Sansa will be a darker character in TWoW. The game of thrones cannot be played honorably and she will need to get her hands dirty to outwit LF and take him down at his own game.

The point where Sansa simply stops narrating what she sees and actually starts analyzing what she sees in her POV chapters is when the student will become the master and I am excited to see that happening.

[itsclydebitches]

I think the problem with Rhodes is that there’s a divide between realism and idealism in regards to his choices. realistically you sometimes can’t do much for victims of abuse that won’t put them in a worse situation. Not because the law is automatically evil (though can be corrupted) but because it’s complicated. It’d be great to remove kids from terrible situations, but having (possibly) unknown adults rip kids away from their families? Taking them who knows where? Letting them decide, by their own perception, what constitutes a terrible home? And whose to say that adult really has the kids best interest at heart? And what happens if they get caught and now the victim is in even more danger? There’s a reason adults can’t just take kids as they see fit. On the other hand, RWBY is a show and idealistic, and I agree completely that I would prefer Rhodes, who seems like a good man, taking the risk rather than play long game. Especially cause it’s a common trope in media and because it is nice to see corrupted laws that hurt victims (the shock collar on a child/“worker”) be broken. Idk, I find myself torn between knowing Rhodes may not have been in a strong position to help but also wishing more could have been done, while also knowing that this stance is common for outsiders witnessing (or having suspicions) about abuse. Sometimes, depending on the situation, we don’t have power to help people

I think that’s absolutely the divide - realism vs. idealism - but, for me, the issue is that RWBY isn’t writing an idealistic show anymore. Key word being “anymore.” Since the final arc of Volume 3, RWBY has double-downed on a line they originally only pretended to take seriously: “Life isn’t a fairy tale.” It started asking us to approach the show in a realistic manner, such as: 

Insisting that discrimination is a pervasive problem in this world that cannot be solved by, idk, hugging people and asking them to be nice. It’s a structural issue just like in real life. 

People will now be dying in this world, including the best and brightest who absolutely did not deserve it (Pyrrha). Life isn’t idealistic, it’s harsh and cruel and unpredictable. 

Characters will no longer bounce back from the horrors they’ve seen, but rather respond to them in a realistic manner, such as developing PTSD (Yang). 

The concept of lies, secrets, and manipulation took center stage as themes, highlighting the complex nature of this plot and, as a result, undermining any simple, idealistic solutions. 

We even saw a change in details: characters can curse now, blood is shown, we’ve had two episodes back-to-back where long scenes of child torture is the focus, ensuring that we stare at the kids’ agonized expressions rather than just cutting away and implying that this awful thing is happening. 

RWBY was an idealistic show (“I want to help people!”), now it’s a very dark, realistic (you know, within the bounds of fantasy) show that shoe-horns in idealism when it’s convenient. The problem with that isn’t just the number of ways in which that has parts of the show contradicting each other - Ozpin’s secrets are dangerous (realism), Ruby’s secrets are fine (idealism); the group is given space and sympathy for the horrific events they’re working through (realism); Ironwood and Ozpin are expected to bounce back and never falter (idealism), etc. - but also that it expects the viewer to randomly switch between realism and idealism with no indication of when that switch took place or, more importantly, why. If I’m supposed to accept the nuance in all these other aspects of the show, why would I suddenly ignore the nuance of Rhode’s situation? If I’m supposed to accept the unspoken circumstances of a character like Yang (she won’t tell the group about her Mom being the Maiden because that’s emotionally hard), why does that suddenly not extend to Rhodes (he won’t just whisk Cinder away because that’s emotionally and practically hard)? RWBY and/or the fandom can’t keep telling us to treat this show seriously and then randomly go, “Oh, but not when it comes to them. Every single situation has nuance except for that guy’s.” 

I’ve also been trying to think of other stories that do give us that idealistic “Adult rescues a traumatized and/or abused child” and everything I’ve managed to recall has radically different circumstances. Specifically: the parents are out of the picture, in one way or another. Matilda? Her parents flee to Guam, giving Honey the chance to adopt her. Mako? Her family was killed in the Kaiju attack, giving Stacker the chance to adopt her. Eleven? She was a government experiment who ran away, giving Hopper the chance to adopt her. Ciri? Her parents supposedly died at sea, she was taken in by her grandparents, then her grandparents die, giving Geralt the chance to adopt her while he also has a magical right to her via the Law of Surprise. In every example I can think of the guardians are gone, the child is actively working to leave, or the new parent in question has some other tie to the child that justifies them stepping in (or all three). I don’t think I know of another fictional resolution like the one the fandom wants Rhodes to have taken: “I may know about this child’s physical abuse, or I may just think she’s an employee treated badly, but either way I’m going to take her away from her still living, still present, still powerful family, despite her being a stranger to me and her never asking that I do this.” Which doesn’t mean that story doesn’t exist - it absolutely must given the wealth of media out there. I’m positive we could create a list - but I’m not so sure this is some obvious, pervasive trope that Rhodes “should” have followed. Even if it is an incredibly common plot and I’ve just missed those stories (absolutely possible), RWBY is not so idealistic that we should essentially be going, “How dare Rhodes not kidnap this child at great risk to him and to her! That’s obviously the only choice here.” 

[northernscruffycat]

ALL THE HADES OCS

OH HERE WE GOOOO~ (gonna put most of this under a cut, because it'll get long) Momus: Sexuality HC: Gay. He thinks he's bi at this point in the RP, but he is gay.

Favorite ship(s): Momus/Heracles, obvs, but I also like Momus/Morpheus and the awful Momus/Theseus stuff as well

Brotp: Momus, Hypnos & Icarus

Notp: Uhhh... Momus/Asterius?

Happy HC: Momus thrives in the modern era and has basically been waiting his whole existence to live in this time period so he can drive everyone mad by becoming a memelord. I also love describing his awful outfits too much.

Angsty HC: Nyx never acknowledges him and this hurts him more than he admits.

Random HC: If he existed in the actual game, he'd be a character who screws over the player late into a run (probably only spawning from Elysium onwards). He takes any perks you've gotten from gods and makes it so instead of doing plus the base damage, it does minus the base damage (although obvs caps before ur doing no damage at all). Because I'd want players to reeeally hate him. Like "I was doing so well, but then I ran into Momus and he ruined it!" Seems fitting for the God of Mockery.

General opinion: I am highkey obsessed with Momus in a way that I've never been this invested in one of my own OCs before. How dare he do this to me. OKAY, EVERYONE ELSE UNDER THE CUT:

Heracles: Sexuality HC: Bi, also a furry

Favorite ship(s): Momus/Heracles again, though I love how soft he is for Morpheus in the recent RPs

Brotp: I feel like him and Icarus could be this once they know each other better

Notp: I mean, there's a lotta ppl who deserve better than this guy

Happy HC: Like, you've already set him on this path of awesome character development to the point that I actually want good things for him for the first time. I hope that the clown parade have an excellent world tour together and that he can start to trust himself again.

Angsty HC: His canon is angsty enough

Random HC: He has a preference for twinks, whether he wants to admit it or not.

General opinion: I can't believe you've made me stan Heracles now. He's shot up my fave characters roster. The banter that him and Momus has is top tier, but then the genuinely emotional moments between them hit just as hard. You can actually see how much they've been through together and how, now they've got their feelings out in the open, they genuinely love each other and want this to work. UGHHH I LOVE THEM Pasithea: Sexuality HC: I mean, she's your OC, but I assume she's bi

Favorite ship(s): Pasithea/Oizys

Brotp: Pasithea & Zagreus

Notp: None really? Even after everything, I don't really dislike Pasithea/Momus, although it's best they both realised that wouldn't have worked out

Happy HC: She becomes queen and everyone respect her like they should!

Angsty HC: Her whole situation with Thanatos and that she didn't get the closure she deserved.

Random HC: She do be liking them goths tho

General opinion: I love Pasi! I think she's just as much the main character as Momus is at this stage and I'm glad that her whole arc showed her giving the middle finger to everyone who oppressed her and coming out on top. Morpheus: Sexuality HC: I honestly don't know :0

Favorite ship(s): Momus/all of his simps (Icarus, Momus & Heracles)

Brotp: They only had that one short scene, but I like Morpheus & Pluteus

Notp: None yet

Happy HC: He gets to travel the world and everyone simps him like he deserves

Angsty HC: There has been enough angst in this man's life. The time for angst is over.

Random HC: He is an unsuitable replacement for owning a thesaurus and should not be used in such a way.

General opinion: Another top favourite! I love the directions you've gone in with him, the whole "he's a doll come to life so Pasithea and Hypnos could cheat the Fates and not have kids" angle is brilliant and he's definitely a character who I'm always keen to see what will happen to him next. Icarus: Sexuality HC: bisexual and sweaty

Favorite ship(s): Icarus/Morpheus and Icarus/Momus so far

Brotp: Icarus, Momus & Hypnos, also potentially Icarus & Heracles

Notp: Icarus/Zagreus LMAOOO

Happy HC: He might not be an inventor, but he eventually finds his true calling in being a technician and becomes incredibly successful with his skills for improving upon inventions that have already been made.

Angsty HC: He's fuckin icarus. everyone knows that story lol

Random HC: His whole existence is one big joke that Momus will never stop laughing at.

General opinion: He's still finding his feet as a character, but I have high hopes for Icarus and think we'll get a lot of mileage out of him. Oizys: Sexuality HC: Obstinately gay

Favorite ship(s): Oizys/Pasithea

Brotp: I mean, she had a good friendship with Pluteus before the timeskip, so hopefully she still does

Notp: Oizys/Pluteus as a romo ship

Happy HC: God I hope she can be happy someday.

Angsty HC: She's not as co-dependent as she claims to be and played up needing Momus's help when they were growing up so that he wouldn't leave her.

Random HC: Oizys gets a slight kick out of the concepts she's goddess of, but doesn't realise when they overwhelm her.

General opinion: It's complicated, but I want to hope she figures it all out. Pluteus: Sexuality HC: Ace/Aro

Favorite ship(s): Maybe they'll figure it out with Aphrodite again one day

Brotp: Pluteus & Oizys, also Pluteus & Pasithea is funny

Notp: Pluteus & depression

Happy HC: Pluteus is happy to be a terrible actor who believes that they're a great actor.

Angsty HC: I feel like there's a sense of not being fulfilled inside Pluteus, but they don't want to address it.

Random HC: Pluteus will always refer to Pasithea as their mother, whether she likes it or not. Sorry Pasi.

General opinion: I like Pluteus as the occasional support character and they're excellent for comic relief, but they're one character who I don't think needs to be part of a bigger story. ...Okay, so there's also Daedalus, Nemesis, Eris and a few others, but I think that I've covered most of the ones who've had a lot of focus for now? Let me know if I missed anyone :0

[callmemythicalminx]

The Last Of Us 2: We Need To Talk About It

*Spoilers ~ ye have been warned!

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I’ve held this off for as long as I could, but I’ve given up resisting- we need to talk about The Last of Us 2. It’s an incredible masterpiece, there’s no doubt about it. The graphics are beautiful and incredibly realistic, and the gameplay has made bounding leaps in progress since the first game, offering a more exciting and intense experience for the player. The actors have of course done incredible jobs and the sound design is amazing. Altogether, a pretty amazing game… Except for one thing- the story.

The first game was widely loved for many reasons, but most prominently, and I’m sure many will agree with me on this, the story and the characters are what made it stand out and still hold up to this day. Joel and Ellie are amazing characters, incredibly complicated and realistic. The former was a man we as players grew to love, after seeing the horrible pain he had to go through and the hardships he faced. We saw him do unspeakable things, hurting and killing many, all in the name of survival. But still, we cared for him, because we saw him grow to love too, risking all to keep his new daughter safe. Ellie was a young kid, forced to grow up too soon in a world that didn’t really care about her. Faced with the fact that she was the possible saviour of humanity, she had the weight of a brighter future on her shoulders. In each other, these two characters found someone to care about again. Joel saw the daughter he lost and couldn’t protect. Ellie saw a father who wouldn’t leave and would help keep her safe.

After seeing the bittersweet ending of the first game, we waited for 7 long years to see Ellie and Joel return to our screens once more. Trailers promised new adventures with the pair, as well as the much-anticipated impact of Joel’s actions after taking Ellie from the Fireflies and stopping the creation of a possible cure. Even when leaks about the story were released, the majority of fans held strong to the belief that Naughty Dog would lead us well and would give us a great sequel to finish off an incredible generation of progress, leading us into a new age of video game storytelling.

Oh, how wrong we were…

Make no mistake here- I know Joel isn’t a hero. What he did at the end of the first game was incredibly selfish. I’ve always seen him as an anti-hero because of his sometimes cruel and violent actions and that can’t be forgotten. Undeniably though, he is still such a beloved character, who we can’t help but connect too because he’s human and vastly complicated. He was also living in a world where people are doing much worse things to survive. Darker, more evil actions that weren’t close to anything Joel ever did. Can he really be blamed for some of his actions, when seeing what other surivors had done? When I first played The Last of Us, I couldn’t help but sympathise with him, especially as I saw him slowly become more caring again after meeting Ellie. He’s incredibly interesting too in terms of characterisation because he’s neither good nor evil- he’s just human, trying to survive in a nightmare world.

Obviously, playing as Joel made a world of difference as to how we perceived him and whether or not he was a hero or villain. If we’d been playing as a completely different character, perhaps a Firefly, we would have most definitely seen him in a different light. This is where Abby comes in. I’ll give Naughty Dog credit here, it is a really interesting concept to introduce a playable character who’s seen the other side of our famous duo’s actions. It’s a great way to make us think even more about the consequences and the effect we have on our environment. As the daughter of the lead surgeon meant to operate on Ellie, Abby has seen the negative effects of Joel’s actions first hand.  This opens up a widely explorable concept for the player to experience, offering a new complicated character who has seen her own pain and hardships just like Joel and Ellie did. She’s sure to be liked… Right?

Unfortunately, no.  

In the span of two weeks, Abby has become one of the most hated gaming characters of all time. The reason why- bad storytelling.

I understand what the game was trying to do, I really do. I see what the story was trying to tell and portray, but the writing and pacing ruined this before the game had barely even started. I know I can speak for most when I say that I was expecting Joel to die, either it be naturally or inflicted by someone (or something) else. Naughty Dog know how to tug players’ heartstrings, as we saw at the start of the first game when Sarah was killed. It was bound to happen, though I didn’t really want it to. Joel deserves a worthy death, one befitting of his character which would complete his arc and bring a conclusion to his story. What we got instead was single-handedly one of the worst character deaths ever presented in a video game.

Joel dies at the hands of Abby, less than 2 hours into the game after we’ve seen him for only 10 minutes or so. He and his brother Tommy willingly walk into a very suspicious situation, in the most stupidly uncharacteristic way, revealing their names and where they’re from. They say this to a group of 10-20 strangers, in a building where they can easily be ambushed and restrained. Abby is at the helm of this group, driven to Jackson for one thing- the need to avenge her father who Joel killed. After hearing who they are, the group is obviously more alert and ready to strike. Joel then says, and I quote ‘Y’all act like you’ve heard of us or something’… Bear in mind here, that our Joel from the first game knew he was a wanted man and that he couldn’t trust anyone. Hell, he didn’t even trust Ellie for a good while before he started to care for her. But here he willingly gives his name and acts shocked when it’s recognised? This is not the Joel we know, who’s incredibly smart and can see a trap a mile off.

In one of the most sickening occurrences I’ve ever seen in a video game, Abby then shoots Joel in the knee with a goddamn shotgun. Tommy, of course, jumps into action to help his brother but is quickly restrained and knocked out. While listening to Joel’s horrific groans of pain as he lays wounded on the floor, Abby then has the audacity to ask him to ‘Guess’ who she is? Other than the fact that this is incredibly cringy, there’s no way in hell Joel would have the faintest clue who she is. He doesn’t run a family check on everyone he kills, does he? She could be the daughter of a random soldier he killed or some other nobody.

Ever a badass till the end, still having no clue who she is, Joel tells Abby to get on with whatever she has planned. She gets someone to tourniquet his leg while she collects her weapon to end his life- a golf club of all things. After calling him a ‘stupid old man’, something that both upset and pissed me off too much, Abby then begins to start beating Joel to death. You play as Ellie now, as she tries to find him. She enters this group’s hideout to see her father hunched on the ground, curling in on himself, spasming because of numerous brutal hits he’s received to his head. His face is bloody and bruised, his eyes barely open as a pool of blood spreads around him. We feel the horrendous pain Ellie does as she’s quickly restrained and forced to watch Joel meet his death. She begs, rambling for him to get up and leave, but there’s nothing she can do.  Ellie’s horrified cries are ignored as she begs for mercy and with a sickening crunch, Joel receives one final brutal blow to the head.

And he’s gone. Like that.

If this was written true to the character we know and love, Joel would have never entered that building and given his name that easily. Neither would’ve Tommy. These are two seasoned veterans of a zombie outbreak, who have seen the horrid measures people will go to when provoked or desperate. Is the game really trying to tell me that they’d trust a bunch of suspicious-looking kids, walking willingly into a crowded area with no weapons, standing apart instead of together? Joel didn’t trust anyone in the first game, why would this change?

Regardless of the fact that he’s in Jackson now, which is ‘friendly to travellers’, and that he’s grown ‘softer’, he’s still not gonna be trustworthy of strangers. By and by, Joel is still a wanted man and he knows this, he took away the world’s chance at a cure for Pete’s sake. Secondly, this is plain and simple a terrible death for Joel. Not because of how he died (because this is a zombie apocalypse, after all, it’s going to be brutal even if it’s awful to see) but the fact that this happens the way it did and the placement of it. There’s no closure to his character arc or to the rift between himself and Ellie that’s, at this moment, unknown to the reader. He didn’t die saving Ellie, which as cliche as it sounds, would have juxtaposed beautifully with Sarah’s death at the start of the first game. Imagine how satisfying it would have been to see that Joel would be willing to die for Ellie after he’s been focused only on surviving and himself. Imagine if he’d died in Ellie’s arms just like Sarah did in his…

The timing is also really bad considering we’ve barely seen any of him in the two hours we’ve played. When we see Joel die, it doesn’t feel as impactful as it could’ve been. We haven’t seen any new or old encounters with him and Ellie, except for the small seconds at the start as he retells the end of the first game. We haven’t had a chance to fully reconnect with him. His odd actions further distance us away from him because he’s not acting like he usually would. Therefore we’re left with a horrifying death that feels hollow, strange and disconected.

Abby does not help make this scene any better, which is a shame, because I think if different choices were made to push this death further in the game, we could have had a chance to care for her or at the very least begin to like her. Instead, we have no clue as to who she is or what her motivations are before this. All we know is she’s looking for someone. To then see this new character kill someone so beloved, in the most brutal way… Players are gonna hate her immediately! I hated her immediately! And like I said, her dialogue in this scene is atrociously bad, especially when she insults Joel. That really felt like you were adding salt to the wound there Naughty Dog.  

Imagine if you will, what a better death or a change in chronological order of Joel’s death could have done to help the story. If we’d got to know Abby more, playing as her for longer than two hours, she might not have been as hated. The player could have begun to like her and sympathise with her, slowly realising who she is and at the same time, seeing the damage Joel has caused in his selfish decisions. She could have still killed Joel, but towards the end of the game, so that the player would have felt more conflicted about her doing it after seeing her past, seeing the pain that she went through. The game could have reminded us that Joel is still an anti-hero. Imagine that? If the game had made us admit to ourselves that, though it’s painful to watch, his death might have just needed to happen to make up for the loss of everyone he killed? It could still have fit the environment they’re in too, with a brutal and harsh death that could’ve come out of nowhere, but still felt justified in the story. Tess in the first game had a brilliant death, befitting of her badass character, yet still shocking and realistic to the world she lived in. Instead of becoming a zombie, she instead let herself be shot after bravely standing outnumbered against the enemy while Joel and Ellie escaped. It was a great death and Joel had every right to one of his own. 

Maybe he didn’t even need to die for his actions at all though? Let’s not forget that he’s not the only one who has done bad and unspeakable things in this broken world the characters live in. He’s not irredemable, he’s a complicated human being who has had to adapt to the world around him. Think about some of the groups we came across in the first game- is Joel really worse than them? Yes, he took away the world’s chance at a new begining, but did it even deserve to start again after seeing how horrid people had become? Imagine if your loved one was sacrificing themself for a world that didn’t deserve it? Imagine if the cure might not even work or be possible to create, would you really just let them die? Joel’s only human, he acted with his heart instead of his mind. I have no doubt that Abby would probably do the same, or Ellie, or any other character who had those same choices ahead of them. Joel’s actions were selfish, yes, but he shouldn’t have to die for it. I wouldn’t want to lose someone I cared deeply about, just for a possible cure that would save an unworthy world.This is why we aren’t finding fault with the fact that Joel died, it’s HOW and WHY it happened that’s got us so pissed off.

What makes his death and the story even worse is the ending of the game. All the pain and trauma Ellie goes through killing all of Abby’s friends to find her becomes worthless. Why- she lets her go free. After fighting her twice and losing her fingers during one of those fights, Ellie suddenly has an epiphany and realises that revenge isn’t the answer. She lets Abby go. Once again, I understand what Naughty Dog were trying to do here and once again it could have worked.

‘Revenge is bad’. It’s been in many games and this message has worked beautifully in most too, like in Red Dead Redemption 2 for example. It worked beautifully in the game because it’s something that Arthur makes reference to a lot, reiterating the fact that ‘revenge is a fool’s game’. We see that pan out when John gets revenge at the end of the game and pays the price for it. The reason it fails in The Last of Us 2 is that this message comes from nowhere. Ellie has killed hundreds of people leading up to her final fight with Abby and she’s lost even more in the process too, including friends, her family and now her ability to play the guitar which was the final big thing linking her back to Joel. She’s brutally murdered many, torturing others so badly that she turned into a shell of herself afterwards. She suffers from PTSD because of Abby’s actions, seeing the death of Joel repeatedly, leaving her physically and emotionally weak. It doesn’t make any sense that after all this traumatising violence and pain, she suddenly gives up on the notion of revenge when she’s just about to kill the murderer of her father. The most disappointing thing is this message could have still worked if done correctly. If she could have realised revenge is pointless sooner, this wouldn’t feel as out of place as it does. Why does this one person, the murderer out of all people, change Ellie’s mind, after killing so many? Sure, you could say she has a family now and she was reminded of them, but then why would they have such an impact at the point of Abby’s near death, when Dina begging Ellie to stay didn’t work in the first place? It’s. Bad. Writing.

Abby and Ellie have both hurt each other equally, killing family, close friends and their fathers. Instead of killing each other, the story could have led them to realise together that Ellie is still the key to saving humanity, and with Abby’s link to the fireflies, they could somehow still create a cure.

Imagine. That. How fulfilling that would have been? Instead of the horrid, pointless ending we got instead.

Joel’s death could have brought the two together, connecting the Fireflies once again with the cure to right the wrongs he did. He could have realised that Abby was looking for him and willingly sacrifice himself to make up for what he did, completing his arc like I mentioned while also dying a fitting, badass death. He could have left a note for Ellie to read, explaining his actions, to say sorry and to show that he knows this is the only way to fix what he did. At the end of the game, Ellie could have looked out on a recovering world, singing her own rendition of Joel’s song, this time full of new beginnings in the face of great sacrifice.

That’s how you finish a story and a character’s arc. I’m no world-class writer, but I could imagine many different ways this same story and message could have panned out but with better writing, pacing and time, telling a tale of angst and sadness, while opening up a new chapter of hope and healing. The real end of the game leaves you feeling hollow and depressed, unfulfilled in the journey you’ve just experienced. Games are at their basic principle means of enjoyment, we play them to escape our lives and to have fun. They can be dark, harrowing and painful but still an absolute pleasure to play. What doesn’t help in defence of the game’s story is that the game director Neil Druckman said himself ‘For us, with The Last of Us specifically (Uncharted is a little different in our creative approaches), we don’t use the word ‘fun’. That feels… wrong to hear. If video games are not enjoyable, then what is the point in playing them?

I think it really says something in particular when the most enjoyable part of the game is a flashback between Joel and Ellie where there’s no real action. It’s just them, exploring a museum for her birthday, talking and joking and it’s the best part of the game hands down. It doesn’t include any of the new brilliant gameplay and while stunning, doesn’t really have much visual impact either. What makes it so special is just seeing the characters we love interact and have fun like it’s a scene cut straight from the first game. After 7 years, us fans were yearning to see more of Joel and Ellie’s cute relationship, so to only have that and a few other small scenes is so… unsatisfying. If we had more of their adventures before Joel’s death, I know that many people would have been much more accepting of it. It would have definitely been more impactful, having given us the chance to reconnect with them both again. Going back to Ellie on her revenge path after that museum scene was so depressing. It’s such a shame that further interaction between them was just forgotten about and thrown aside. They were such a big factor in the first game’s success, so to see them barely together felt too strange. Though we play as Ellie for the most part, it began to feel less and less like Last of Us and more like some new zombie game. Playing as Abby so suddenly too and for so long just further implemented that weird feeling. It’s a real shame because I really can’t stand her at all now. But she could have been a great character if the story was much different.

I can’t help but feel that the story feels patronising and degrading to its audience in some ways. Some of the choices and plot lines feel very disrespectful to the characters and fans, simply because of what it expects of you after forcing you through unwanted pain and misery. Let’s not forget also that we were lied to in the trailers. Showing numerous clips of Joel as his oldest self to reel us in, then change them to be flashbacks? Flashbacks which happen to be the only good pieces of storytelling in the whole game. It’s just wrong. And quite frankly it’s disgusting. Video games are expensive nowadays. We already knew many fans were gonna buy it anyway because we’re loyal to what we love. But to intentionally make that push, using lies, to secure sales for an expensive game from a huge fan base… it’s disrespectful.

As a whole, I can see what Naughty Dog were trying to do. They were trying to create something different, do what they wanted instead of what the fans wanted. That’s not a bad thing at all, it’s ballsy and creative to do something like that with a well-loved franchise. Rockstar took that same leap when they created Red Dead Redemption 2, forcing you to play as Arthur instead of the beloved John. It worked for them because they wrote the story well enough so that you’d have time to explore this new character and grow to love him, especially when faced with his actions and his mortality. Arthur dies brutality but fans still love the game because it was a fitting and wonderful way to finish his character arc.

This idea fails with The Last of Us 2 because the player isn’t properly engaged with the story before shit hits the fan and their favourite character is dead. I have no doubt that if it was written differently, if we’d been able to see more of Joel before his death and had more than two hours played with Abby that this story could have actually worked. The message that ‘revenge is bad’ could have worked. Ellie and Abby both have the same arc, experiencing something traumatic, being consumed by revenge, then ultimately realising it’s worthless to kill. We could have followed the same arc with a much better version of the story we actually got.

Instead, it feels like the game is intentionally pissing us off, continuously ruining that idea, first by making us watch as Joel is brutally and stupidly killed so soon, then secondly, by then forcing us to play and connect with Abby for 50% of the game when that seed of hate for her has already been planted. This is another one of the moments in the game where I feel like we’re being patronised. Is it really fair to paint us in such a bad light for not wanting to play and grow to like Abby, when we saw her as a stranger brutally kill our favourite character? Is it really that bad for us to hate her after she has caused so much pain when we’ve only known her for two hours? It’s such a shame because she could have actually become a new well-loved character.

I’d just like to say that while I think the story is bad, no one who was involved in the making of this game should be attacked for it. Video games, especially in this age, are such hard things to make because so much goes into them and I don’t want to discredit anyone’s work. Regardless of my or anyone else’s opinions on the game or its story, the team at Naughty Dog have still poured hours of time and effort into making it. They shouldn’t be receiving attacks or hate, we can still discuss the game and our opinions while being respectful. The actors shouldn’t be receiving hate either, they acted brilliantly with what they were given. Ashley Johnson and Laura Bailey especially should be credited for their work. And Troy Baker, though he was only in it for a short while, deserves an award just for that final ending scene between Ellie and Joel- it made me cry buckets. He made this character come alive beautifully and he deserves all the praise for it. And so do the rest of the cast, who did exceptionally good jobs.

In my eyes (though it sounds bad) The Last of Us 2 doesn’t exist as a game. In my own perfect world, it’s actually just badly written fanfiction posted to Tumblr or Wattpad. As goes in my made up ending, Joel and Ellie move to Jackson and restart their lives after the end of the first game. Eventually, he tells her about what happened and there’s a rift between them for some time, which is, of course, to be expected- it was a momentously selfish thing for him to do. Over time though, Ellie learns to forgive him and the rest is history. Because there’s no real canon ending, anything can happen. So… Did they eventually create a cure? Who knows. Did they stay in Jackson, happily living out their lives? Maybe. Did Joel die a badass and sacrificial death protecting Ellie? Possibly. Or did Joel die eventually in old age, surrounded by his family, holding his daughter’s hand as he passed away?

I hope so…

He may have been a complicated anti-hero. He may have even been a villain. Regardless, he still deserved a respectful death and in my perfect makebelieve ending…

He got it.

🌟🌟/5

Photo Credit ~ some from @ inora_miller on Instagram

[gra-sonas]

In the next episode of The CW series Roswell, New Mexico, entitled “Good Mother,” Isobel (Lily Cowles) is determined to regain control of her life, which leads her to make a risky choice that has potentially very dangerous consequences. With Liz (Jeanine Mason) still hard at work at trying to bring Max (Nathan Parsons) back, Isobel finds herself isolated and unable to turn to anyone to help her through what she’s experiencing, which causes her to further spiral.

During this 1-on-1 phone interview with Collider, actress Lily Cowles talked about the downward spiral that Isobel is currently on, how hard it can be to pick up the pieces after your entire world has been shattered, the relationship dynamic between Isobel and her mother (Claudia Black), how scary and thrilling it’s been to tackle her story arc this season, how Episode 206 could break the internet, and what it’s meant to the cast of this re-imagining to have some of the original cast involved with and supporting the show.

Collider: Clearly, a lot of things are happening this season, and Isobel is just not having a good time of it, right now. How chaotic are things for her to deal with, and does she have a handle on anything, at this moment?

LILY COWLES: Great question. I was really hoping, as an actor, that we would start this season six months in, with Isobel having a little bit of time to process, she’s been seeing a therapist, and she’s a little calmer. But of course, that’s not gonna happen, when you have to let the viewers see her in the trenches. Unfortunately, the beginning of Season 2 is about as bad as it could get for Isobel. She’s lost her brother, her twin, her best friend, the most important person in the world to her. And then, she’s lost her husband, who not only died, but died having turned out to be a psychopathic alien serial killer, who used her body to commit murders and manipulated her. So, she already has a lot to deal with. The world that she knows has already been completely destroyed.

She’s always lived in a pretty restricted gilded cage that she’s built for herself, where everything seems like it’s really fine and everything’s really good, but she’s been very co-dependent on these two men, in her life. Suddenly, her entire world is shattered, so that is already really terrifying, and enough to make anyone lose their mind. On top of that, she realizes that she’s with child, and that she’s carrying a baby, which is something that, three months before this, she might’ve been really happy about. But then, she finds out that she’s carrying the child of this man, who was completely abusive and deceptive, and who totally took her body and took away her own autonomy from her. This is not the way that she wants to find herself pregnant. To be honest, Isobel probably does wanna have a family. I think what she wants most in this world is stability and family and community, and people around her who love her and who make her feel safe. But suddenly, everything has been turned on its head.

She doesn’t have her brother, and her husband was a deceitful liar. And not only that, but now she’s holding his baby. I think this baby represents, for her, the continuation of the legacy of a traumatic abusive relationship and something that has completely ruined her life. She doesn’t think she can move forward with that. I think she feels that she needs to first find herself and rebuild herself, before she can think about taking on raising another life. So, Isobel is in really dire straits, at the beginning of this season, and she finds herself in a particularly bad situation because she really has no one to turn to.

Max is gone. I don’t think she feels that she can talk to Michael about it because he was an unwanted child in the foster care system and he doesn’t feel like someone that she can talk about this with. Beyond that, there’s no medical resources available to her. And of course, Isobel is an alien, so she’s biologically different than a human. She can’t exactly go to a doctor for help through this. She functions as an allegory for people who also find themselves in a situation where they can’t get access to medical care that would help them have autonomy over their own bodies. She’s facing something really bad right now, where she feels very much backed up against a wall and doesn’t have many options. I don’t think that she feels that she can have this child, but what are her alternatives. She has nowhere to turn, which is what leads her to start taking some really drastic measures.

We’ve seen Isobel spending some more time with her mother, to varying degrees of success. How would you describe their relationship, and what do you enjoy about exploring that dynamic?

COWLES: It’s great. We didn’t really get to see Isobel with her mother, at all, before. Isobel has learned a lot from her mother, who is a woman that has, on the front, a very polished exterior, where everything looks good and she’s very much playing by society’s rules. This is who Isobel learned how to behave from. So, we get to see who Isobel has modeled herself after, which is a woman who’s highly attuned to social cues and expectations. There’s no small part of her that really resents her mother for that. She doesn’t feel like it’s necessarily safe to be very vulnerable with her mother. And of course, Isobel is also hiding a giant secret from her mother, which is that she’s not a human being. There’s that complicated factor, as well. She’s hiding something very big from her mother, but clearly, she doesn’t feel comfortable telling her mother that. We can all relate to that relationship with your parent where you’re like, “God, I love them, but they drive me crazy. All of the little things they say, they just know how to trigger me.” She still wants to be close to her mother. She’s in need. She’s a woman who’s completely lost at sea, and she’s reaching out for people. Her mother wants to take her to this warrior class and, at first, she’s a little cruel to her and like, “I just wanna be alone.” But she sees that it hurts her mom and is like, “I don’t mean to make you feel bad, mom. Okay, let’s do it. It’ll be good.” But, it’s wonderful. Working with Claudia [Black] is incredible. She’s so funny and so open. We were really having a good time riffing and doing some fun things, in Episode 2. Ultimately, Isobel doesn’t feel that maybe she can turn to her mother in a time like this, which also probably many young women can relate to, who find themselves in a situation like this. You would hope that your parent would be there for you, and yet so many young women can’t turn to their parents, for whatever reason, and have to deal with it on their own.

When I spoke to your showrunner, Carina MacKenzie, and I asked her what she was most proud of with Season 2, she told me that it’s the fact that she was able to really push the stories in bolder directions and shake things up, and have it be a little darker this season. Clearly, all of that applies to Isobel. So, without spoilers, what has that been like for you, as an actor to get to really dig into and explore?

COWLES: It’s scary, and it’s thrilling. I remember when Carina reached out to me, proposing the storyline for Isobel, my initial reaction was just like, “Oh, my god.” I remember feeling light-headed, where I was just like, “We’re gonna have to put Isobel through so much pain, and as an actor, I have to go there with her.” That’s not a pleasant place to go, and yet, as an artist, you hope that you get to represent all aspects of the human character and experience, and at least half of those are not pleasant. So, I felt an enormous responsibility to do justice for this character because I know that she is an emblem for so many women and humans and men, too, in general, who have had to go through enormous amounts of trauma and come out the other side. Trauma and really terrible things can lead us to places that we never thought we could get. We can find inner strength that will surprise us, and that we never would have had to call on, if we hadn’t been pushed. So, there is real value in taking a character to a dark place and exploring these really dark parts of the human condition because that’s also where so much of the beauty of courage and strength and vulnerability comes from. It’s not hard to be strong and courageous when everything is going your way. It really is in those moments of extremis and dire need that people have to step up and they’re called to show their strength. That’s such a beautiful part of life, so it’s wonderful that Carina is challenging us and pushing us to go there. I was really honored to be able to represent this story, although it was also something that I took very seriously because it’s a very sensitive and weighty issue.

Do you have a personal favorite episode that’s coming up?

COWLES: I loved the first three. I loved them so much. Eva [McKenna] is such an incredible writer, and she wrote the second episode. Deirdre [Mangan] and Carina wrote the third episode, which I think is stunningly beautiful. But I will say that our dear writers, Rick [Montano] and Vinny [Ingrao] knocked Episode 206 out of the park. It’s funny and wonderful, and a reprieve from all of the really high intensity, emotional drama. It’s exciting and it’s got action, and it’s got really juicy things. I think it’s going to break the internet. Episode 206 – tune in!

Things have been a little bit different this season. Last season, you had this little alien trio of Max, Isobel and Michael, and it’s different now, with Max mostly dead. What’s that like for you, as actors? Does it feel like a very different experience without that?

COWLES: Yeah, definitely. All of the actors on our show are so fun to work with, in their own ways, so it’s cool when you get to switch it up. I love working with Amber [Midthunder]. I love working with Heather [Hemmens] and Jeanine [Mason]. I love the little Scooby gang that we’ve got going on, with [Michael] Trevino and Tyler Blackburn and Michael Vlamis and Jeanine and I, all working together to like solve the mysteries of the universe. But I definitely sent a message, at one point, to Michael Vlamis and was like, “I miss you! I miss working with you!” I love working with both Nathan [Parsons] and Vlamis. They’re so different as actors, and they’re both so good and wonderful. Vlamis and I get together and we just riff and have so much fun. I hope, in some world, there’s a blooper reel that comes out with all of our riffing ‘cause we’ll just go off. Eventually, the director will be like, “Okay, enough! Just say the lines.” We rev each other up and get going, and it’s so much fun. When I don’t get to work with my bros, I’m like, “Dudes, I miss you!” But it’s also so wonderful to be able to work with other actors and get to know them. There were characters that Isobel didn’t interact with as much in the first season, that suddenly she’s getting to be bumped up against in the second, and it’s really fun to see how the different characters relate to each other and work around each other.

It’s also very cool that this re-imagining of this has been able to include some of the original cast, with Shiri Appleby directing and Jason Behr now guest starring on Season 2. What’s it meant to the cast to see how the original cast is supporting the series, and what’s it been like to have them around, on set?

COWLES: We’re so lucky to have Shiri and Jason supporting us and wanting to be part of our show. When you make an adaptation of an original, of course, you want to do justice and you wanna feel that the people who made the original are supportive of what you’re doing. It means the world to us that they’re both so excited to be a part of it and to work on it. It boosts our morale so much to see them and to feel like we’re a part of this larger legacy of a story that’s being told across generations. They’re so professional and so funny, and they bring their ow flavor of the original, that was so specific and good, with that tone that they had. They bring that into our show, and it’s so wonderful to be able to infuse what we’re making with that OG flavor. It feels really good. They’re both the most gracious, warm, friendly and hysterical people. I have a huge crush on both of them. If I got to out with one, it would be very difficult for me to choose. And that’s saying a lot because Jason Behr is everything that I thought was good and true, as a 12-year-old. But Shiri, man, is something else.

~ CoIIider

[sheyffer]

On Bradley (and the rest of this show’s glorified ableism)

Do I have your attention? Good. Because I have things to say.

This is the collective salt built up over the course of most of this entire season, so be warned. This will be long, and most of you aren’t gonna like this - so feel free to skip to the bottom line at the end of the post, I guess.

Without further ado:

So. If you’ve been following me or are a somewhat frequent visitor on the show’s tag(s), you might have noticed I like Bradley. With how much screentime he’s been getting lately, I should be happy, right? Well, I would be, but instead, it just made me feel terrible, week after week. People who’ve talked to me during those times will know. But let me explain.

- Bradley and me

Cheesy title, but what’re you gonna do. See, when MML first came around, I was pretty quick to declare Bradley my favorite character. The first few episodes were great, and I loved what they set Bradley up to be: A kid living in Milo’s shadow, dealing with the rightful bitterness coming out of that. His friendship (or whatever you wanna call it) with Mort and his crush on Melissa had great potential, and knowing these writers, I was expecting some great episodes in these directions. Not that we ever got any, but more on that later.

As the show went on, I noticed something else about Bradley. I know there are a bunch of “(character) is autistic” headcanons out there - and I’m not gonna say anything against those because they’re all valid -, and that Bradley’s also come up in these regards several times. I fully support that headcanon (partly because I’m autistic myself and he’s my favorite character so projection is bound to happen in one way or another), but there’s something specific I’d like to bring up: something I’ll call the switch, for lack of a better word. I will admit that I’m not spending time with other autistic people that often so I can only really speak for myself here... but man. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a (cartoon) character that so obviously has that very same issue (whether the writers intended that or not is another topic; again, see further down). I’m struggling with it a lot myself, as good as on the daily, and seeing actual representation of this in a show makes me feel incredibly validated - because, again, when does any character ever have this?

- A little tangent regarding that “switch”

I should explain what I mean in the first place, of course. Basically, I’ll only care about a topic if it actually affects me in some way, and if it doesn’t, my attention is basically zero. No matter how close we are, I probably won’t even attempt to fake interest when you’re talking about something that has no significance to me, because if I do, people tend to notice quite easily (and I prefer keeping things genuine because me being dishonest would arguably just complicate things further if people realized eventually). Better yet, with the stuff I am interested in, I often end up caring way too much -  so it really is kind of a switch, per se. My emotional investment is either full on or full off, no inbetween. Makes me an awful person to be around when you want to talk about anything beyond the fandoms or characters I’m currently interested in, for the most part, but I’m glad about the people who, for years, have stuck with and supported me anyway :’) Maybe you can see by now how Bradley reminds me of this, but here’s some assorted aspects:

Him failing to somewhat relate to Milo no matter how similar they kind of are in various regards

Him actually being friends with and hanging out with plenty of people he gets along with great (compared to having none whatsoever, as could’ve easily been the case if he really was just a jerk), though he's almost never the one to initiate the conversation unless it's Milo related

Him being straight up rude to those people at times, resulting in everyone getting mad at him (which I can’t really blame them for, but still)

And him in turn being way too emotionally invested in certain topics, see Milo and what Bradley believes to be him stealing the show (and Carla, of course)

Melissa puts it really well in Milo's World when she says Milo is so great because he always cares deeply about other people - Bradley quite literally can't get on that level, so it's no surprise he's this bitter, really. What's he supposed to do? He'll never have it in him to apologize for his salt because there's absolutely no reason to in his eyes. He simply doesn't care if other people are sad or hurt by his words, and not even voluntarily so: He believes he's right and doesn't grasp why people don't get him, which may just be because he's so emotional - and less rational - about it... and when he’s generally the quiet-ish grump who's not too bad but also just never quite the friend that genuinely cares about you as a person because he's just this apathetic, any emotional reaction you get out of him is immediately rendered an uncalled-for outburst. Not saying everyone else is awful to get mad at him, because I can't really blame them at all with how much of a jerk he actually comes off as (and him trying to explain is probably awkward phrasing in the "sorry but I don't actually care about your feelings, no offense" direction that immediately makes people get mad at him again), but don’t paint him as inherently awful. This is likely as hard for him as it is for everyone else, I’ve been there myself... but yeah. So much for that.

- The crossover and its aftermath

Needless to say, I was pretty disappointed by most of the second half of season one when it came to Bradley’s screentime, especially since he’d been such a prominent character early on. So when the crossover came around and he got that plant arm, I was like - great! A physical difference to go along with his mental issues and to give him even more reasons to get a little character arc and a push towards morally darker gray areas! This isn’t something they can ignore anymore, right?

Ha. Sure.

It was bad enough that in those first few episodes after the crossover, he had that arm and it was never brought up by either him or anyone else. And then we did get people acknowledging it exists - but it was either treated as a joke or, worse, something to “get over”.

Where do I even begin.

- Yeah, how about no

It’s bad enough that the writers confirmed they only added the plant arm because “it’s funny” - not because “hey, let’s give our main antagonist kid a visible reason to have an arc” or anything in a remotely decent direction. It’s worse that most of the viewers apparently agree, because I’ve hardly heard a negative comment on the matter over the course of these last few episodes. But seriously - how am I supposed to enjoy this (honestly great amount of) screentime Bradley’s been getting lately when all he’s reduced to is the comedic relief? Make Chad and his supernatural antics the hilarious one for all I care, but don’t use the kid who very clearly has physical (and mental) issues whether you actually headcanon him as having anything specific or not. All I got to see in these last episodes is Bradley rightfully pointing out his arm (Milo’s World, Ride Along Little Doggie), him being legitimately upset (The Mid-Afternoon Snack Club), or him honestly just being in the episode altogether (First Impressions), only to have other - main - characters make fun of, or belittle, or get mad at him and have them be portrayed as “in the right” with not a single ounce of sympathy for Bradley whatsoever. As for First Impressions: I’ve been that (autistic) kid excited for the first day of school but not getting in in time. It’s horrible. (Though I’m willing to let this one slide because it reasonably builds up his strong dislike for Milo)

- On an episode in particular

For what it’s worth, The Mid-Afternoon Snack Club isn’t all bad. Hardly an episode is. But it’s easily the most painful to watch for me, for numerous reasons. And that includes certain fandom reactions I’ve witnessed.

Carla. However hilarious or weird (or both) you or the characters may find this, he clearly doesn’t. Even if the writers only added it as a joke to begin with - I’ve had similar experiences myself. I’ve been in Bradley’s position, and sure, I can’t blame the characters for, initially, belittling him for this stuff. But for the love of all the gods I believe in, don’t just completely ignore the distress he’s going through and change the topic like that (while he’s still in the middle of the breakdown, no less). I expected better at least from Milo or Mort.

Zack’s “character development”. In any other situation, I might have appreciated Zack’s talk about feeling like being in Milo’s shadow. But not only is this literally what Bradley was supposed to be about this whole time - Zack immediately gets reassurance and comfort by the other characters. The best Bradley ever got was rude comments on being uncalled for. Goes right along with:

Only the good guys deserve happiness, apparently. Whenever Murphy’s Law does its thing and someone has an issue with it, Melissa and the others are quick to comment on how it isn’t Milo’s fault and whoever has the issue is clearly just being rude and uncalled for. Whenever Bradley does something mildly unpleasant, the very same characters get mad at him and are portrayed as being in the right. As people have pointed out before, Milo and Bradley aren’t all that fundamentally different - but because Milo is the protagonist (tm) and, in-universe, nice to people and (as I’ve heard) adorable, people treat him well enough, while it’s apparently the right thing to be awful to Bradley, because he’s the antagonist(/comedic relief) and not the nicest person around. (For the record, I like Milo and appreciate how supportive people are of his issues. It’s just the jarring contrast with Bradley’s treatment that bothers me.)

Bradley’s “character development”. It’s been a thing I’ve read about regarding this episode and that’s apparently been getting quite a bit of acknowledgement. And sorry, but what? Randomly making Bradley a nice guy who doesn’t mind being around Milo & Co isn’t “character development”. More likely than anything, it’s “oh no, we have three episodes left and can’t have any relevant-ish character not like Milo before this is over, but we don’t have enough time to even half-ass Bradley’s “arc” so let’s just make him be nice for the sake of this montage”. It’s more of a disservice to the kid than anything, especially when in this season in particular, pretty much nobody was nice to him, ever.

- What I’m getting at (took a while, I know)

I’m basically Bradley, for what it’s worth. Whether he intentionally has to deal with the switch or not, his portrayal is incredibly similar to what I’m like, socially and otherwise. Seeing him treated like this for episodes on end is absolutely horrible for me. And I’m an adult who dares believe they figured out their mind for the most part - what about kids? Actual kids (like me ages ago, who only learned about autism to begin with because of really liking Ferb and finding an autism-related post about him) who can relate to Bradley as much as I do because they’ve been there themselves, only for the Good Guys to treat him like this? Even if you ignore all this semi-projection-based talk about mental disorders, his plant arm is still very real and as much of a handicap as anything. It doesn’t matter that the creators added it (and Carla, and probably Bradley’s other antics) as a joke, there are people out there for whom this is anything but that. They deserve happiness as much as anyone, no matter if they’re not the nicest people around (unless, of course, they have really problematic views, but Bradley is far from entering that territory). If anything, they deserve people at least attempting to understand where they’re coming from - and writers who treat even the protagonist’s foil as more than just a joke.

(Disclaimer: No, I’m not saying nobody should call Bradley out when he’s being rude. Even things like the switch only explain his behavior and don’t completely excuse it - he should have to feel the consequences of his actions as much as anyone. But right now, nobody is making any attempt to help him change for the better; they’re making everything far worse, if anything. An episode of Milo, or Mort, or anyone really, actually being willing to so much as listen to his side of the story... that’s all it takes. And can’t be that hard to pull off, can it?) 

But since I’m already talking about this kind of stuff:

- And Elliot, too

If only Bradley was the only one. I’m not gonna say anything against Elliot being a jerk (World Without Milo did a good job portraying him in that regard), but even he deserves better than this. I’m talking, of course, about Safety First, in which Elliot has something I can only describe as PTSD, complete with a trigger word and everything. I will admit I haven’t seen the episode since it aired (and am not planning on doing so again), but man. It’s obvious enough how much the trigger word aspect was used as a joke, but then apparently we learn that you can just randomly be cured of your trauma in a few effortless minutes. How nice to know for a few people I know.

- The bottom line

I have plenty of issues with MML when it comes to plot, or pacing, or humor (which, maybe, deserve their own posts eventually). But this right here is by far my biggest problem of them all. Sure, it’s a show for kids, and sure, you aren’t supposed to take something with this kinda premise super seriously - but that doesn’t mean there aren’t aspects that should be. Whether the creators are aware of how their characters come across or not, there are parts even they should know not to be this disrespectful about. And maybe I could get over things like Carla on their own, but when so many little aspects are condensed into a single character, it really stops being something I can ignore. Especially when the characters interacting with him display such infuriating Protagonist-Centered Morality, and even more especially when it’s related to issues that could really use some proper representation in the media anyway, particularly in shows for this kind of audience.

I’m not saying this because I don’t care about the show (and could’ve stopped watching it easily if I have so many problems with it), it’s because I do. I know these people can produce fantastic content, P&F is a prime example. The first few episodes of MML are, too. But after that, it all kind of falls apart for me, with some gems here and there. And yet I still care about these characters (certain ones, anyway), and carry the hope that they will at some point get the treatment they deserve. Until then, I’ll be here writing fics to take care of that when the show fails to - you’re free to ask me about them if you’re interested, for that matter. 

Thanks for reading, if you made it this far. Complain about my opinion all you want, I know it’s such a jarring wave of negativity in a fandom that’s hardly used to that - but hey. Someone’s gotta be the Bradley here. In more ways than most people with any relation to MML are comfortable with.

Take it or leave it.

[mrsspidermanmaryjanewatsonparker]

You seem pretty well versed in Peter and Mary Jane’s history, and I just want to ask, can you go in depth about Mary Jane’s personality? I know her history, her terrible home life, her history with Peter, but I want to know about HER. Her personality. Her dynamic with Peter. I feel these days that she’s been reduced to the “Pretty love interest” for Spider-Man, which I hate. I KNOW Mary Jane has a lot of depth and evolution as a character.

I know she’s a party girl. Fun loving. Spunky. Independent. Funny. Intelligent. Confident. But I want to know MORE about her, as a person. What else does she do in her life? How does she interact with other people? Before she got in serious relationships, did she sleep around? Was the type of gal that did drugs? Is she open minded? Those seem like weird questions, I admit, I admit, but they really help define her character. How energetic and charismatic is she? Does she completely control the life of the party?

Mary Jane has really become a character I’m really interested in, but I’ve never really seen her “Comic Accurate” personality adapted to a modern adaptation right. The closest I would say would be the Spectacular, but even then she felt too calm.

So I want your answer. I wouldn’t mind hearing an in-depth one. I know you’ve got idealized versions (And I do to, I think I can go on an essay long rant about why I think the two complete each other) but I want to hear YOUR opinion. And if you could adapt the story into the modern day, what would your idealized Mary Jane be like? How would she and Peter’s lovely history happen?

Sorry for the long, oddly specific question, but I really want to figure out MJ, and you look like you have the matching passion and knowledge to help interested fans in her like me.

MJ’s personality is tricky because it evolves over time. But modern MJ when written correctly would have, as we all do, multiple sides to her personality.

She can be goofy, funny, carefree, a party animal, a worry wort, self-deprecating, harsh to her loved ones, selfish, self sacrificing, brave, fearful (but never cowardly), ambitious, beat herself up, socially savvy, very confifident, innately sociable, can keep a secret and just about everything between all that.

 Her dynamic with Peter is also very complicated, it’s ort of easier to talk about examples you throw out at me. But I guess on a fundamental level her dynamic with Peter is all about mutual emotional fulfilment and how that is ultimately mitigates the extreme baggage that comes from life with a hero.

You can phrase it in many different ways but fundamentally MJ loves Peter because of his sense of responsibility.

In essence her Dad was her male role model in terms of a romantic partner, but in the negative. So she found herself attracted to a guy who on a certain superficial level (studious, a bookworm) was like her Dad but on a much deeper level was the polar opposite. Peter wasn’t a raving tyrant, he wasn’t a selfish dick, he wasn’t irresponsible.

She grew up under the fear of a (verbally) abusive man but in Peter she saw a guy who in spite of having a lot of intelligence and raw physical power to also be an abusive and exploitative person, instead NEVER truly abused his gifts and chiefly used them selflessly, even at personal cost.

It is not canon but a great summation of this is in Spider-Man: Reign #4 where MJ’s ghost tells Peter she didn’t love him because he could beat bullies like Flash up but because he could but never would.

Similarly in Web #6 MJ ponders how she could never marry peter due to the worry over his risking his life and how if he didn’t do that he’d have been someone she’d have jumped to marry. But then she realizes if he was someone who was selfishly going to use his abilities for fame and fortune he’d never have BEEN the kind of person she’d have fallen for.

So MJ, unlike Peter’s other girlfriends, is the one who loved him for the thing that most defined, him his sense of responsibility.

But it’s a double edged sword because in caring about him, she obviously doesn’t want him to be hurt, hence you have this brilliant narrative tension.

Wrapped up in this is the fact that MJ understands Peter’s issues with guilt and responsibility because she also renegaded upon her responsibilities and has felt guilty about it ever since because it also hurt her family.

So they are kindred spirits but whilst Peter passively stood by and let the burglar escape MJ actively ran away from her pregnant sister.* Then both of them kept that pain all to themselves for years before admitting it to one another, whilst also keeping their true personalities concealed behind public masks, meaning MJ gets that about him too.

But in confiding in one another they were able to remove those masks and be themselves in one another’s company.

You asked what else MJ does in her life. Mostly she has great ambitions in regards to usually acting, modelling, night club owning, stuff like that. MJ enjoys the spotlight and always has since she was a child.

Her interactions with most people used to be light and jokey or flirtatious. Now they are more even handed though she can be lightly flirtatious just because its in her personality.

MJ’s sex life is very much up in the air. Fans have presumed she had a lot of sex prior and after her first relationship with Peter but there is little on the page evidence confirming or denying this. Certainly she went out on a lot of casual dates.

MJ in terms of drugs is also something never touched upon in spite of her name. However the subtext of the Harry drug story implies MJ is aware of Harry’s drug abuse and she does dump him during that arc specifically when he is as high as a kite so it could be implied from this that MJ has little time for drugs.

When you think about it, between her abusive Dad and her need to maintain a facade around herself it’s unlikely MJ was going to use drugs. She wouln’t want to risk losing any control of her facade. She did smoke in high school though and later due to stress when she was married to Peter, but only briefly.

Is MJ open minded? Well...that depends upon the topic doesn’t it. She isn’t racist or homophobic. She was okay with doing a nude scene in a movie or wearing revealing lingerie on a modelling gig, only really being concerned with how Peter might feel about her doing that, so she’s no prude. She did display an initial prejudice against clones during the Clone Saga. Again what topic are we talking about.

How energetic or charaismatic is she. I mean...very charismatic and energetic most of the time. but it depends upon the situation. She’s not gonna be charismatic or emergetic after someone has died.

MJ could probably control the life of a party if she put her mind to it, yes.

Regarding the Spec cartoon, yes maybe MJ wasn’t comic accurate and more calm but in fairness everyone was because you aren’t going to present a modern cartoon with the same over the top characterization as a Stan Lee 1960s comic book. Peter was comparatively more chill in that show.

In terms of how I’d adapt her and Peter’s story and her characterization it would basically be as it was from the comics but with modern dialogue and pacing with more foreshadowing towards MJ having a hidden personality. I have mapped out my ideal Spider-Man TV series and in that you get MJ in season 2 ala her Romita era debut and then things are as they are in the comics up until she breaks up with Harry. I’d leave them separated unlike what happened in the comics (due to them repurposing an older story where they were together but that’s another issue) then have her and Peter fall in love as they did in the Conway run and break up as they did in the Wolfman run but change it from Peter proposing to MJ to asking her to move in with him.

My rationale is that in the modern day its very uncommon even for a college senior to be discussing marriage. You’d get the same thing with him surprising MJ with a crackerjack box or something but it’d have his apartment key in it instead of a wedding ring.

Additionally, I’d have her outright dump him (as opposed to the pair just not going steady anymore) and leave New York within the same story, the same story where Peter graduates, just because it’d make for a good season finale and makes the story more concise. In essence MJ just hard runs away from Peter the moment commitment rears its head.

This would lead to more of an impact in the next season when he’s dating Felicia and MJ (with no foreshadowing, which is how the comics made things happen) shows up at Peter’s door.

Again from there things would progress as they did in the comics except when we get to the MJ backstory episode I’d work her scenes from Parallel Lives into that too.

For reasons I won’t go into, for this hypothetical adaptation I’d bring the events of Hobgoblin Lives way forward in time so instead of happening when Peter and MJ are married shortly after the Clone Saga they happen shortly after Ned Leeds dies and after Peter and Felicia have broken up again. They would form the basis of another season finale wherein MJ’s role would be functionally the same as in the comic book but with two additions. Since this would be the season finale there should be some payoff for her and Peter’s relationship.

So after she, Peter, Flash and Betty formulate their plan to smoke out the real Hobgoblin MJ asks Peter how he copes with this stuff and he shows her by taking her out webswinging and we homage Sensational Annual 2007. Then later after Hobgoblin beats Peter hard he recovers at MJ’s place and she covers for him and they almost kiss before he heads off to save Betty.

I’d open the next season with the storyline wherein Peter proposes to MJ and they eventually get engaged. But instead of them marrying immediately I’d adapt loads of stories that in the comics happened after the wedding and use those to present challenges and doubts to Peter and MJ about getting married. It’d basically be a whole season about whether or not they will get married at all.

So you’d get things like the Jonathan Caesar storyline, the return of Black Cat, Kraven’s Last Hunt as the mid-season finale and the penultimate episodes would be the introduction of Venom. Obviously Venom debuted confronting MJ so there is that, but also Brock is a divorcee, the symbiote is literally one of Peter’s ex’s and a lover scorned, whom he tried to kill in a church bell tower. In the first Venom story and in my version Spidey and Venom end their first battle in that same church bell tower.

All of which is thematically juicy for an arc about relationships and marriage (because wedding bells get it).

I’d make 2 major changes though, one of which is Venom’s battle with Felicia from the second Venom arc would happen before he confronts Spidey for the first time and Peter would defeat Venom in his classic suit. The idea being that MJ makes a new version of his classic suit both because she prefers it and because it represents his true self vs the black costume which is what he’s like to be.

The classic suit = friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man/ the black suit = bad ass scary Spider-Man.

So only by being himself, by being the person MJ loves, can Peter defeat Venom this dark reflection of himself.

The story would end with Peter and MJ reunited but both clearly having doubts, as though Venom has ‘poisoned’ their future relationship.

The actual finale would mostly be an adaptation of ASM Annual #21 but with more of a focus upon the doubts each character has and unlike the comic we see HOW those doubts are put to rest. For MJ its having a conversation with Bruce and with Peter its having a conversation with the hospitalized Felicia.

Through their conversations the pair realize that rather than all the stuff they’ve been through (Venom, Kraven, etc) showing them they shouldn’t be together, the fact that they’re still together in spite of all those things proves that they can make things work. So the season wraps up with them getting married.

The next season would be a Harry Osborn centric season but MJ in response to Peter’s parents seemingly returning would seek out her sister and her Dad in jail and reconcile with them like she did in the Clone Saga.

Then I’d do the clone saga so that’s essentially going to be the same thing except obviously Peter will not be hitting any pregnant women in this version because fuck that shit. Also Peter and MJ wouldn’t leave New York although Peter would still temporarily retire as Spider-Man.

Finally I’d do a season set after the Clone Saga leading up to the pair reuniting with their kidnapped baby, Peter losing his powers and truly retiring forever, then we go into a Spider-Girl TV show.

   *This is important also because when MJ closed the door after Gwen died to comfort Peter she was choosing to do the OPPOSITE of what she’d done with her sister.

In essence Peter made MJ a better person, he made her confront her issues or helped her to do so and she grew as a result. She became a more heroic, more self-sacrificing and more responsible person. This was always the case since before they were dating Peter pushed for MJ to give a witness statement to the cops about a murder which she didn’t want to do out of fear.

In turn MJ made Peter fight all the harder. He very much needs her in his life as she has emotionally, mentally and physically saved him multiple times, see Kraven’s Last Hunt for an example.

[truthbeetoldmedia]

The Bold Type 3x02 "Plus It Up"

Hello friends, and welcome to the second episode of the current season of The Bold Type. While last week fell a bit flat, I’m happy to say that this episode hit every mark. It was funny, heartwarming, meaningful, and as always, well acted.

Employee of the Month

Now, Sutton’s portion of this episode was the least gripping, but heartwarming nonetheless. Oliver has some uncharacteristic absences from work, both worrying Sutton and causing her to put in more time for the magazine. Oliver isn’t sharing what has him missing work and snapping at Sutton, which worries her.

To complicate things, she’s also struggling with sharing these things with Richard. On one hand, he’s her boyfriend, so of course she wants to discuss what’s happening at work and why she’s having to stay late. On the other, she can’t forget that Richard is also part of HR. She can’t exactly vent about Oliver without revealing he’s been missing work, so she’s forced into silence.

While handling this crisis at work, Sutton also has her new move to deal with. The change from her apartment with Jane to Richard’s penthouse is pretty stark. Living in a super nice New York City penthouse isn’t what makes her uncomfortable, it’s the “perks” that come with it. Richard has a housekeeper that does his laundry (really), which is something Sutton isn’t here for.

Sutton is super relatable when discussing this uncomfortable situation with Kat and Jane. While Kat also grew up with a housekeeper and Jane admits that having one herself is something she would want if she’s successful enough, Sutton quips that not only has she never had one, but she almost WAS one herself.

(She also reveals she didn’t get the job because she failed the drug test. Never change, Sutton)

I have to admit, I’m team Sutton here. I don’t care what other people choose to do, but I would never be comfortable having a housekeeper, ESPECIALLY one that does my laundry. My mom cleaned houses when I was a kid, and I did the same for a little bit in college. I really can’t imagine hiring one myself.

Essentially, Sutton is doing two jobs at once while having exactly no time to do her laundry. Honestly, who among us. (Later on Richard ends up doing Sutton’s laundry for her, bragging that even though he had a maid as a kid he still knows how. Congrats I guess?)

Sutton does find out that the reason for Oliver’s absence is actually really heartwarming. Apparently, Oliver’s ex-boyfriend had something of a drug problem before they were together and has relapsed after thier break up. The issue is that this ex has a daughter, to whom Oliver was essentially a step-dad, and she’s now in danger of being sent to a group home since there is no one to take her. Oliver is in the midst of applying to be her legal guardian to prevent this from happening.

Not only is this super sweet, it’s an important conversation to have. As Oliver mentioned, it’s not exactly easy for a gay Black man to adopt a child. As someone who happens to work for a group home, I’m really happy that The Bold Type is approaching this subject. Here’s to hoping that they go into depth with this and don’t just leave it as a side story.

Write it Out

This episode we see Jane begin her fertility treatments, the first step in the process of freezing her eggs. The whole thing is pretty daunting: she needs to inject her medicine every day at the exact same time, visit the doctor every other day, and stay away from alcohol, carbs, and sex for 10 days.

The irony is that none of those things bother Jane too much, especially when compared to her anxiety about sharing this process with Pinstripe. After all, she tried the same thing with Ben in season two: introducing the added stress of the egg freezing process (and Ben’s not at all helpful response) is essentially what drove them apart. She’s more than happy to do all these things on her own, but our new resident Terrible Dude ruins her plan.

Patrick, said Terrible Dude, decides that it would be a great idea for Jane and Pinstripe to write an article on the process together. They’re both writers, they’re dating, and they can offer two unique views on the process. Great idea, right?

Jane definitely doesn't think so. Throughout the episode we see her anxiety at not wanting to share this process with Pinstripe, worried that this will disrupt the happiness that they’ve settled into in thier relationship. She doesn’t want to make things “heavy.” Pinstripe interprets this as Jane not wanting to open up to him, so the disruption that Jane predicted becomes a reality.

Because this is The Bold Type, the negativity doesn't stay for long. Jane realizes that Pinstripe isn’t Ben, and his willingness to support her outweighs her worry.

However, I’m afraid that they’re glossing over a pretty problematic point (say that ten times fast) of Jane’s arc this episode, which is Patrick’s complete disregard for Jane’s feelings and privacy. As a man, Patrick has no idea of the physical, emotional, and mental stress that Jane is dealing with. He completely ignores her when she’s clear about not wanting to write the article with Pinstripe. Jane’s right to discuss her own body and her own medical journey isn’t a thought. Sure, she was willing to write an article on her own, but doing so ensures that she writes it on her own terms. The article and her relationship with Pinstripe worked out in the end, but Patrick’s disregard for Jane the person at the expense of Jane the writer wasn’t lost on me.

We saw the same behavior from Patrick last week as well - he all but forced Kat to use her Blackness and her Queerness to lift up Scarlet. Now, Kat doing that is not the issue, but her choice of when and how to do so was taken away.

Patrick is also pretty rude to Jacqueline this episode - he’s insulted when he realizes that both he and Jacqueline are gunning to interview Cardi B, claiming that he needs to “up his game” since he feels that he is more on top of things than Jacqueline is. He also talks down to her later, over explaining what Rupaul’s Drag Race is with the assumption that Jacqueline is a little too out of touch to be familiar.

We do see Jacqueline put Patrick in his place later on by bringing Sasha Valor of Rupaul fame to Kat’s Queer Prom, revealing that her and Sasha are great friends and that she’s been her long time supporter. Melora Hardin deserves an Oscar for the look she gives him when he realizes that he’s underestimated her.

Raising Some Hell  

Before I start, I need to mention how good Kat (Aisha Dee) looks in this episode. Her dress? Her hair? She’s a gift.

Kat’s journey this episode is by far my favorite. She’s back to being proactive and ballsy, throwing everything she has at a Queer Prom fundraiser for a local Lesbian bar that’s in danger of shutting down. She also discovers the reason for the shutdown; the neighborhood is looking to gentrify, and that means pushing out businesses like the aforementioned Lesbian bar. Apparently there were some fines that were brought up from many years ago that the bar wasn’t aware of, and combined with late fees they need to pay over $42,000 or close.  

Here’s a definition for gentrification, just to put this into perspective:

“The process of repairing and rebuilding homes and businesses in a deteriorating area (such as an urban neighborhood) accompanied by an influx of middle-class or affluent people and that often results in the displacement of earlier, usually poorer residents.”

It’s the displacement aspect that we’re paying attention to here. The bottom line is that the influx of wealthy white people would rather live next to a Lululemon than a Lesbian bar, and by design gentrification seeks to clear neighborhoods of People of Color, Queer folks, and anyone who happens to be poor. I suggest reading a bit about this, so you should check out articles like Examining the Negative Impacts of Gentrification and 7 Reasons Why Gentrification Hurts Communities of Color.

Also, just a fun reminder that neighborhoods can and should be improved FOR the people that currently live there.

Before Kat thought of throwing a Queer Prom, she met with the local councilman to discuss options. She discovers that he’s written the bar off as a lost cause, telling Kat that unfortunately there is no way to get around paying the fine. He would love more than anything to save the bar for his constituents, but it’s just not possible.

Turns out, that councilman doesn’t actually care about the bar or his constituents. Shocker, I know. He shows up to the Queer Prom for some photos, and while talking to Kat he lets slip that the new condos they’re putting in when the bar closes wouldn’t be so bad afterall. She calls him out for attending the event and using it as a photo op to prop up the illusion that he actually cares about his neighborhood, which was amazingly satisfying to watch. During the end of the episode we see Kat searching up and coming female candidates for office, in what I hope is a bit of foreshadowing.

I’m super happy with this episode. It was uplifting, entertaining, and well executed. I can’t wait for next week!

The Bold Type airs Wednesdays at 8/7c on Freeform.

Alyssa’s episode rating: 🐝🐝🐝🐝

[johannesviii]

Anachrophobia

Some highlights of the last EDA I’ve read (Anachrophobia).

I took these screens while reading, along with my reactions. As usual, this is full of spoilers. And screaming.

I’m glad this book is over.

Some of you might already know that if you want to really f█cking scare me, you have to go as abstract as possible. This is why I’m such a big fan of Cube, and even Cube², its terrible sequel with terrible, terrible CGI, which gets even more abstract and surreal than the first one. What happened? How did the characters end up there? How does it work? Are they even on Earth? We don’t really know. We do know, however, that if they don’t get out of the Cube as soon as possible, they’re all going to die.

Similarly: what really happened in Anachrophobia? Were Eight, Fitz and Anji really on another planet? Was it even real? Who are the clock people possessing everyone? We don’t really know. I do know, however, that at some point, I was so scared to read the last 50 pages of this thing that it took me two weeks to pick it up again.

Does it really deserve such a high note? I don’t know. I might come back later and change it. I’m not sure. I’m too busy being scared shitless. 9,5/10

WE’RE OFF TO A GOOD START, I SEE.

Well, this is an EDA, dude.

Oh, they are fighting a literal “Time War”! This has potential.

This shouldn’t be so cool.

Meanwhile, poor Fitz isn’t very good at playing chess and I’m laughing.

Excuse me I love that room

That’s the weirdest time travel explanation I’ve ever seen and there’s quite a lot of them in this series.

Try to keep up, Anji.

Hoping it's better than a certain other Narnia-like episode seriously am I the only one who hates The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe

Try to keep up too, Fitz.

Eight no

That kind of reminds me of Longest Day.

Eight oh my god

OKAY WHAT’S GOING ON IN THIS F█CKING WORLD

DOCTOR THIS IS A BAD IDEA

EVERY TIME YOU TRIED TO PRETEND YOU WERE AN EXPERT SOMEONE WAS WAITING FOR, IT ENDED BADLY. ESPECIALLY IN DARK PROGENY.

“And the man yelping in pain is Fitz”

Holy shit

This is an excellent idea!

Okay so this world is, like, capitalism on steroids

IT’S BEEN GOING ON FOR 400 YEARS EXCUSE ME

ANJI SDSDFGHJKIH YOU COULD HAVE WARNED HIM

Well at least Anji is keeping up

How much do you wanna bet that the opposite side is doing the same shit?

Okay now I’m starting to panic too

This is peak Eight right there

SAVE THEM

Why is this so f█cking stressful

THIS IS SCARY, STOP

Roll credits!

So Anachrophobia isn’t a phobia per se, more like a neurological trauma?

MhhhhhMMMMMMH NOPE

“I have some rather unsettling ideas”

You mean more unsettling than what is currently happening?

WHO. AM. IIIIIIIIIIIIII

Okay this is even worse

Eight please try to focus

Why is this book so scary

BAD IDEA

None of this is okay and this book needs to stop, which really concerns me because there’s more than 170 pages left.

Are.... are you hoping to spy on him too

So even after losing a heart, he doesn't need to sleep more. Interesting.

Holy f█cking shit

On the other hand, this is cute.

Ok ok honestly, fuck abstract horror, give me some gory bullshit over this any day, I’m going to have nightmares about this, I swear.

Also friendly reminder that this world is terrifying.

“Or out” oh no

Bad idea Doctor

BAD IDEA FITZ

Oh wow, that happened way sooner than I expected.

Fitz being an anxious little shit as usual, but really, who can blame him in that situation?

THIS IS ONLY PAGE 77, HOW CAN IT GET ANY WORSE

FFFffffffFFFFffFffffFFfF

GET THEM OUT OF HERE

Go Anji!

Can't they breathe for two seconds

Hey, some typical Eight echolalia, it’s been a while!

You idiots I love you

Hello Mr Mistletoe. You have a very silly name.

sdfghgfdsdfghj Eight no

The only weird thing about him so far is his name.

Oh no, what a pity, uh?

This is getting rather complicated.

NOPE nope no nu-uh no

N O P E

More echolalia!

I laughed

I’m so sorry for Anji though

ALL ABOARD THE NOPE TRAIN TO NOPEVILLE

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOPE

Eight speaks fluent sarcasm but can't recognise it when other people use it and that’s extremely relatable

“Clocky” asdfgfdsdfg

Okay

Can I breathe now

Apparently not

Please don’t come any closer to that thing, this is very bad for my nerves

Okay.... now this is weird.

GOOD

Well this is abstractly horrible, thank you very much for that.

Poor Fitz isn’t going to get a nice rest in this adventure either

Well, you gotta stay positive, right.

Also you gotta learn to enjoy the small victories, right.

“I’ve been wrong before”

You don’t say

WELL, YOU SPOKE TOO SOON

Nice.

This is also nice.

On the other hand, this sounds extremely ominous. Is the war not really a war, but something else entirely?

Is... is it because that’s good for business?

That’s it, isn’t it?

How... how do you beat something that can rewind time? I’m sure there’s a way, but at the moment I’m too busy being scared to think of any clever solution.

I... I need a pause.

Usually, “base under siege” stories do nothing for me, but that one has a terrifying abstract menace, and that changes everything.

I’m back from my pause!

And we’re straight back into the scary!

I swear, this liveblog’s notes are 60% “nope” and I’m struggling to find new ways to express how hard I’m nope-ing

What ARE those things?

More importantly: do I even want to know?

Too soon.

Okay, now this is interesting. Because Fitz’s most traumatizing “life milestone” happened to the original Fitz, not our current Fitz. Would he be able to change the events from Interference? I’m not sure.

If he couldn’t change them or anything that happened before the “birth” of his current self, what else would he change? I’m curious.

I F█CKING KNEW IT. THEY MAKE THE WAR LAST FOREVER FOR PROFIT.

Have I mentioned recently that I love Anji

Because I love Anji

Also excuse me but why and how is Mistletoe still alive?

Why are you coughing?

Is it the heart loss? Is it something new? Am I being paranoid?

Awwww

Oh my god so that’s what he would change.

I have no words.

That is an interesting possibility, honestly.

How... how desesperate must Eight be if he’s seriously starting to consider gasing the whole station?

Ooooooh. Okay. That’s how you get rid of something that rewinds time!

This is very clever!

This is also horrible!

Thanks!

“Can I just shoot him now?” “No.”

Wait.

WAIT.

WAIT WAIT WAIT.

ARE YOU SABBATH

THAT WOULD MAKE SO MUCH SENSE

At this point I’m so scared I kinda want to cry

This book is like a collection of all the scariest things possible for me

I’d say “I can’t wait for this character to die” but if he’s Sabbath that’s gonna be a bit more difficult.

“I think things are going to get nasty”

IMPLYING THEY AREN'T ALREADY?

He’s way too happy about this very disturbing situation.

F█CcCkK

Please make it stop

Okay!

All right! Okay! Good!

But there’s 60 pages left!

That’s somehow more terrifying than everything so far!

I’m fine, I’m fine I’m fine

Have I ever told you that I really like the “Hurt & Comfort” trope

You cute idiots.

FffFffygtfghgfcyuCk

I need a break from this book.

Two entire weeks later, I’m picking this book up again.

And a weird roadtrip has started. And this is pretty funny.

No, we’re not. Ask again in three hours, Fitz.

Oh. I was way off.

As if they didn't have enough problems already.

In case you’re wondering, yes, I’m screening all the scenes where Eight goes into echolalia mode because it’s relatable.

This NOPE juice is delicious.

Poor guy, though.

No they’re not, are they?

Make it stop, I kinda feel sick

“More than anything, she wanted not to feel terrified”

F█CKIN’ SAME

They... they’re all already clock people, right?

I’m scared and I’m crying a little bit

I didn’t think the author would go that far

Clearly I was wrong

THAT’S

THAT’S AN EXTREMELY SPECIFIC FEATURE OF A LOT OF MY NIGHTMARES

A PLACE WHICH LOOKS LIKE IT SHOULD BE OUTSIDE, BUT WHICH IS ENTIRELY INDOORS BECAUSE IT’S IN A GIGANTIC CHAMBER OF SORTS

THIS IS EXTREMELY SPECIFIC

WHO ARE YOU AND WHO GAVE YOU FREE ACCESS TO ROUGHLY 17 YEARS OF MY PERSONAL NIGHTMARES

Ah, yes, great, please add more nightmares to the nightmares

That was predictable, actually.

This is Time Works all over again.

Please tell me the plutocratic empire doesn't even exist anymore.

I knew it.

Also that basically makes these things Capitalismisators 2000.

Oh. So they just wanted to get clear instructions.

AHSDFGHJKJHGFDERTYUHGB

Okay. Okay. He can control it. Good.

This book really needs to stop giving me fresh ideas for nightmares.

He won’t change anything anyway.

Wait. Will he?

Good.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure he'd unmake the entire Earth arc if he could.

“He’s having some sort of nightmare”

AREN’T WE ALL

How can they solve this in 13 pages??

WAIT

WAIT I HAVE AN IDEA

WHAT IF HE UNMAKES A THING WHICH HAS NO IMPACT ON ANYTHING THAT HAPPENED SO FAR, BUT HAS AN IMPACT ON THEIR FUTURE

What............. what is he doing

HOLY SHIT WHAT THE F█CK

BUT

But that’s a paradox, surely?

It worked??

Wait, is that why he suddenly felt really ill right after the mustard gas plan succeeded? Because that’s the point where he went back to kill himself?

So it didn’t change anything, did it?

I KNEW IT. I KNEW IT.

Wait, who are his associates?

THAT'S HOW IT F█CKING ENDS

ARE YOU KIDDING ME

If you wanted me to read the next book straight away, good job, though.

[idontneedasymbol]

A few thoughts on season 9 and the Gadreel arc

I wasn't in the fandom when season 9 aired, but that doesn't mean I don't have thoughts about it. It does mean that all my thoughts have probably been had before, but in my reading of the more contemporary meta, there are a few points I haven't seen raised. And since that conversation is going around again as per the last couple episodes, I figured now is as good a time as any.

(This is largely looking at it from Dean's perspective, rather than what Sam endured. Dean obviously did a terrible thing, and a terrible thing to Sam. But it was a complicated situation that doesn't map clearly to any real-world ethics, so taking it as a straightforward case of black-and-white, obviously right or wrong choices, is flattening a story with much more dimensions.)

I'll start with my biggest and probably most controversial argument: Dean's mistake wasn't getting Sam to accept Gadreel.

There are two commonly expressed arguments about why what Dean did was so morally reprehensible, that are both somewhat inaccurate.

The first is that Dean went against Sam's wishes to save his life -- basically, an issue of medical consent, violating a "do not resuscitate" request. Sam himself raises this point when he argues with Dean later in the season, that he was willing to die, had the right to make that choice, and Dean forcibly stopped him.

But that's not quite what happened. Sam is the one who chose to live. Both in the season 8 finale (Dean could've knocked him out, or threatened him to stop, but he doesn't -- he just asks, and Sam decides to stop. And maybe Dean would've taken more drastic steps if Sam hadn't agreed, but he didn't have to.) And again in the season 9 premiere.

It's possible Sam doesn't remember making this second choice, as he was in a coma. But Dean (or Gadreel pretending to be Dean; it's never clear) in Sam's head asks Sam to choose life. "But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help." And Sam does, voluntarily. He doesn't know the price -- but he doesn't demand the price before he says yes. He willingly agrees to let "Dean" save him.

The second argument is that by Dean's own accounting, Sam would never willingly say yes to an angel. Except that isn't Sam's stated wish (as far as we know they don't have living wills with angelic possession clauses) but Dean's assumption. And the evidence suggests that Dean was wrong about this.

The rules of angelic possession are somewhat vague. The vessel's technical consent is required, but we know that consent can be coerced -- if you say yes because someone is threatening to murder your family, that still counts as consent. However, from what we see, consent can't be entirely tricked, either. It's not enough for someone to just say the word "yes," or Lucifer presumably would've tried it. He couldn't come to Sam in the guise of Jessica, ask, "Do you love me?" and have Sam's "Yes" count; there needs to be actual permission granted.

The only way Dean's ploy with Sam can work is because Dean asks Sam for blanket, carte blanche permission to do whatever it takes to save Sam.  Anything, up to and including him accepting an angel. And Sam says yes.

The bitter and awful irony is that maybe it only works because Sam believed Dean wouldn't do such a thing to him. "I can't trust you, not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to," Sam says later.

Or maybe Sam would have said yes anyway, even to an angel, if Dean begged him to. One of Dean's biggest failings has always been that while he trusts Sam with his (Dean's) life, he doesn't trust Sam with Sam's own life.  Sam chose to stop the Trials, and maybe he would've chosen Gadreel's bargain in the hospital, for the chance to live. But in that moment, after the angst of Purgatory and Sam not looking for him, after weeks of the Trials when Dean was effectively helping his brother to his death, after hearing Sam's suicidal confession in the church and being shown him talking to Death himself, Dean couldn't trust Sam would stay for him.

But that's not where Dean really fails. He makes the decision to help trick Sam into accepting Gadreel in a moment of extreme duress, to save Sam's life. And that was a terrible choice, but there were no good options. (Besides letting Sam die -- and that wasn't what Sam wanted, in the end.)

Dean's mistake, probably his biggest failure in the show either morally or as Sam's brother, comes after this. It's when he chooses (and keeps choosing) not to tell Sam what he did.

If Dean had been honest with Sam when he first woke up and confessed what he'd done, most of the problem of Gadreel wouldn't have been an issue. With the question of permission, Sam would have been given the choice of whether to accept Gadreel's help or not -- a slightly delayed decision, but it would be comparable to an emergency medical intervention to allow for more complete, consensual treatment later, or for that treatment to be refused. According to Gadreel himself, it wouldn't have been difficult for Sam to cast him out (because Gadreel is weak? Or because the consent was so dubiously obtained, it wasn't as strong?)

So Sam might have rejected Gadreel, booted him out even if it meant his death. Or he might have accepted his help. Even that wouldn't have gone so wrong, though, because even if Gadreel did start trying to take control, Sam would have been aware of it, would have understood what was going on. Practically speaking, in "Road Trip,” Sam has little trouble identifying and ejecting Gadreel once he knows he's there. After Lucifer, one imagines no regular angel is that great a challenge. The danger Gadreel presents, the control he exerts, is only possible because Sam is unaware of him.

Keeping that secret was not Dean's original decision -- Dean wasn't ever intending to keep Gadreel's presence from Sam. In fact, he didn't realize that was an option. Dean, like the audience, had seen angelic possession before, and as far as we know, because it requires the vessel's consent, the vessel always knows it's happened. Gadreel's stealth possession is a whole new deal, not what Dean was expecting. But he's already gone this far -- in for a penny, in for a pound. And Gadreel -- the angel who let the snake into the garden, who watched the original seduction of man -- is as good at pitching as any crossroads demon:

EZEKIEL (GADREEL) IN SAM'S BODY: He will not feel me, no. There is no reason for Sam to know I'm in here at all.

DEAN: You're joking, right? No, this is---this is too big.

EZEKIEL (GADREEL) IN SAM'S BODY: And what will he do if you do tell him he is possessed by an angel?

DEAN: Well, he'll have to understand.

EZEKIEL (GADREEL) IN SAM'S BODY: And if he does not? Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time. Especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die.

DEAN: Then we keep it a secret for now. Or until Sam's well enough that he doesn't need an angelic pacemaker, or I find a way to tell him, I--I'd... As for him being in a hospital, I'll have to figure something out.

EZEKIEL (GADREEL) IN SAM'S BODY: I can erase it all, if you like. He will not remember any of this.

Gadreel has specific motives both to want to be in Sam (for the protection Dean offers against other angels), and for Sam to not know about him (would Sam have realized the angel in him wasn't Ezekiel?) But Dean, not knowing any of this and relying on Cas's confirmation of Ezekiel's character, agrees to it, filled with misgivings but trying to make things right.

Gadreel has only known Dean for a few hours, but that's enough, especially when he's inside Sam's head. Dean is easy enough to manipulate, if you know what strings to pull. And Gadreel has hold of the strongest one of all -- Sam's life.

He's also playing on Dean's guilt, of course. Dean is prone to avoidance; he's tried to keep things from Sam in the past -- though it rarely lasts for long, because Dean also experiences a lot of guilt about lying, and Sam tends to notice. This is the longest lie Dean manages to maintain, and that's only with Gadreel's memory erasure, and Sam still realizes that something is off. (Sam himself is quite a lot better at lying to Dean.) And Dean himself eventually breaks and tries to tell Sam the truth anyway (notably, before he learns the truth about Gadreel; Dean doesn't change his mind because he's distrusting Gadreel but because he feels so guilty about what Sam is going through) -- but by then it's too late; Gadreel is strong enough to stop Sam from hearing it.

There's another factor, too, in that it's not just that Gadreel is manipulating Dean. He's manipulating Dean using Sam's voice, in Sam's body. And yes, this is absolutely, undeniable horrific for Sam, to have his bodily autonomy so thoroughly stolen. (It's a tossup whether it's that or the memory erasure that's worse; both are fundamental assaults on one's self.) And it's a horror that Dean doesn't know personally; he's never been fully possessed.

But part of the terror of possession is having someone you know be not themselves. Dean knows Gadreel isn't Sam (most of the time, anyway, until the end), and it's Dean's fault; but it doesn't change the innate horror of it (which Dean well knows; he is the character most prone to being physically assaulted by external forces using his loved ones' bodies.) Or the mental and emotional confusion of having "Sam" assure him that Dean is doing the right thing, that he is acting out of love. However much Dean consciously knows it isn't Sam, subconsciously it would be hard not to react, to trust Gadreel more than he should, when he's in such a familiar guise.

The next points aren't about Gadreel specifically but the aftermath. Part of why this arc engenders such strong and irate opinions in fandom is because, unlike many of the previous times when the brothers hurt or betray each other, there isn't much in the way of satisfying resolution. Extra-story, I'm inclined to think this is partly because that was more Dean's story -- while Sam was the one who suffered, Dean was the one who took on the burden of the plot by making the choices that drove it, and Dean's story arcs are less likely to get resolution or follow-up than Sam's. I suspect it’s also because the Gadreel story went so dark that the show shied back from exploring or acknowledging the worst implications of it (I don't think Dean was meant to be doing as bad a thing as what he actually ended up doing to Sam. And that he wasn't aware himself how bad it would be only goes so far to exculpate him.)

In practice this meant that the second half of season 9 tried to portray Sam and Dean's conflict as more equal than it obviously was, and to do so the show undermined Sam's side, making a lot of his anger about Dean saving him when Sam ostensibly didn't want to be, rather than what Dean did to save him, or the continuous lying and collaboration with the entity manipulating Sam's mind. Gadreel's betrayal and Kevin's death just muddied the waters further, as something for them both to feel guilt about but was only indirectly either of their faults, so sidestepped placing blame.

But there was another, in-canon reason for their quarrel to be twisted, for Dean’s guilt and responsibility to never be fully addressed: the Mark of Cain.  Dean is on the Mark for the entire second half of season 9, and while it doesn't become apparent until "Blade Runners" how powerful an effect it has, he's different from the moment he gets it. When he leaves Sam with Cas in "Road Trip," Dean is crushed under the weight of what he's done -- in particular at the time, Kevin's death and the agony Sam endured to be freed of Gadreel; but also all the guilt of the months before that he was trying to hide from Sam.

But by the time he meets up with Sam again, Dean has the Mark, and with it a much less remorseful attitude. Instead he's driven, sure of his goals; rather than considering the pain he caused, he's focused on what he accomplished, saving Sam. Their argument in "The Purge" is a clear case of this, because Dean says outright that what he did, he'd do it again, and that Sam would do the same for him. Which Sam denies (a lie, if to himself as much as Dean) -- but the truth is, Dean wouldn't either, not the exact same thing, certainly not when it led to Kevin's death.

And Sam mostly puts aside his anger when he realizes the effect the Mark is having. It's not clear how much this is out of worry for Dean, or because Sam realizes Dean's not exactly in his right mind to be held properly accountable (and as a former addict himself, Sam can understand how sometimes accusations and forgiveness have to wait until recovery). But by the time the Mark is removed, the show is a full season past Gadreel, and rather than revisiting the old storyline, they simply let it lay. (Until 12x19, when they decided to pull up one plot point from the arc and clumsily, inadvertently dragged the rest of the baggage up with it.)

I think there is one more reason why this arc is so painful and contentious, and that is the nature of the story itself, which makes the audience partially culpable. A lot of Supernatural's appeal is that Sam & Dean, for all the wild and crazy crap they endure, are relatable; most of the time you understand why they do what they do, even if you know it's wrong.

And the season 9 arc plays on this completely. Because if you like Sam as a character, you sympathize with his pain. But at the same time, you want him to continue being a character. What Dean does is presented as the only way to save Sam. So the more you like Sam as a character, the more you should want Dean to go ahead with it; the more you can understand Dean's decisions, and how Gadreel was able to convince him. No matter how deeply you disapprove of what Dean did morally, from a story perspective, it's what you wanted him to do.

Likewise, you feel an echo of the same conflicting emotions Sam himself feels. Because if there is any part of Sam that wanted to live (and I think that's his largest part; that's what he's chosen, time and again) then he must feel some gratitude to Dean for saving him. Which doesn't do anything to alter the betrayal and anger, not to mention the added guilt that Kevin might not have died had Sam died instead (and that was what Sam wanted more than anything, Death's guarantee that he wouldn't hurt anyone else.)

I have doubts the show is ever going to directly address the Gadreel story again (and am unconvinced they actually could do a resolution justice). But, though I’m not particularly unhappy to have missed watching season 9 in all its pain in real time, and while while I wish some aspects (especially the aftermath) had been handled differently, I find a lot of it compelling drama, painful in different ways for both Sam & Dean, and a fascinating leg of the journey to where they are now.