#kim dokja is so masculine

[orphiclovers]

So, the implicit textual reason that Yoo Joonghyuk categorically does not want to show Kim Dokja his Punisher form is because he thinks Kim Dokja will simp for the hot lady version right.

Because he's fine competing and turning into a woman in front of a massive audience of constellations and incarnations, he's fine showing the transformation to BTSSS (the only thing he says is 'DON'T TELL KIM DOKJA') and even another kimcom member, Yoo Sangah.

It really looks like his only problem is Kim Dokja specifically seeing it. And what reason could there be for that EXCEPT that Kim Dokja will inevitably be attracted to him. Again, he's not the type of guy to go 'AURGHH YOU DARE TO MENTION THIS I'LL KILL YOU!!' his masculinity isn't potrayed as made fragile here at any point and it would be unjustified by the text to assume this.

Anyway, he's right about KDJ's simpery of course, but just imagine if we got YJH POV of this all and got to see him think 'he would want to fuck me as a woman' about his buddy bro KDJ. Hilarious. Canonical.

[tls12lessthan3]

a genderswapped orv au would be really interesting to me because orv presents itself as a completely average novel with a completely average protagonist and story to tell - and to be frank, i think that setup wouldn't be the same if kim dokja + yoo joonghyuk were women and nothing else changed, given how male-dominated the genre is. twsa is meant to be a parody of popular fantasy action webnovels which typically have Powerful Male Self Insert MC that fulfill the typical 'men' fantasies of being totally badass and alpha and etc. yoo joonghyuk is the pinnacle of this (at least initially) because thats what kim dokja needed growing up - a Powerful Male Self Insert MC he could cling to, project onto and generally learn masculinity from.

now its not to say that this genre doesnt ever attract women fanbases or diehard women fans, obviously it does, and you could make it so nothing else changes but kim dokja being one of those fans and twsa being a rare story in the genre where the mc is a woman, which certainly has its own meta-textual elements and general merit in exploring. however, i think it would also be interesting to look at the webnovels which tend to be marketed more directly to women, and the power fantasies found within them. the first that come to mind for me are regression fantasy romance stories, or villainess stories, which have their own Powerful Female Self Insert MC's and tropes that they fulfill. what would it look like if kim dokja, looking for stories with a female mc she could relate to, project on and generally learn femininity from, stumbled upon yoo joonghyuk staring in one of those? could be fun to think about!

[yellowocaballero]

The actual problem I'm having writing Kim Dokja is that I know KDJs here, on Tumblr.com. This website has thousands of people whose sole link to sanity is badly written media and their overly masculine and emotionally repressed comfort character. KDJ as a person is bugfuck insane but he is not as bugfuck insane as everybody on here putting their blorbos in jam jars and shaking them or sticking them into a blender. To be remotely representative of the KDJs in the real world you would have to make him so insane that he goes beyond his unhinged canon nature and straight into serial killer using cutsey talk category. It's unsustainable. KDJ is the voice of the people but the people's voices could call YJH a meow meow and make fancams of him in a fight.

[mrskyler]

✮⋆˙ Open to requests ˙⋆✮

「 English is not my first language so I'm sorry for any writing mistakes ‹𝟹 」

( Please read everything before request! )

₊˚ʚ ᗢ₊˚✧ ﾟ.

⌗ Hello, my name is ■■, but you can call me Mr. Skyler. I use both feminine and masculine pronouns. But I prefer you to refer to me as he/him.

⌗ As said before, my first language is not English. So when I receive a request, regardless of which language it is, English or Portuguese (my native language), I will make two posts in both languages ​​so that both sides can read.

⌗ I don't know exactly how to use Tumblr, but I'll learn little by little. So I ask you to be patient with me. ‹𝟹

୭🧷✧˚. ᵎᵎ 🎀

✮⋆˙ Fandons and characters I will write:

( I can add more later )

「 Omniscient Reader Viewpoint 」

Kim Dokja

「 Omori 」

Sunny

Basil

Omori

「 Toilet-bound Hanako-kun 」

Hanako / Amane

Tsukasa

「 To Your Eternity 」

The Nameless Boy

Fushi [ 1st Season ]

「 Heaven's Official Blessing 」

Xie Lian

Hua Cheng / San Lang

「 Solo Leveling 」

Sung Jin-Woo

✮⋆˙ What I'll do:

Fluff / Comfort

Angst

Both

✮⋆˙ Which ones I won't do:

Spicy / Lemon / Smut

[ I don't feel comfortable writing this ]

୭🧷✧˚. ᵎᵎ 🎀

✮⋆˙ Note: ˙⋆✮

⌗ I can write the story in a romantic or platonic theme.

⌗ You can order multiple characters from the same fandom or different fandoms.

⌗ I will only write for male readers. [ I can try to write for a non-binary audience, but I have never written something like that and I am afraid of disrespecting the person. ] I don't mind female readers liking and interacting with my posts. You are very welcome!

₊˚ʚ ᗢ₊˚✧ ﾟ.

✮⋆˙ Feel free to send me your request ‹𝟹 ˙⋆✮

⌗ See you later! ‹𝟹

[toast-of-eden]

I really, really like Kim Dokja as a woman in fics.

A cursory dive into men and women in ORV.

PREFACE: I love this IP as it is, I'm not a gender studies expert, and I'm a cis woman. So this is just me musing on this, and hopefully encouraging other writers and fanfic aficionados to fuck with gender roles and have fun with it.

I'm also not 100% sold that any of this was intended by the author or that other readers will like or agree with this take — a lot of it is how I, personally, have chosen to frame the text for myself.

I’ll also say that genderbending KDJ to make the Joongdok ship into a cishet one can be viewed as problematic, but I’m not really talking about the ship. More about the characterization.

I’m basically about to give you 2,000 words of this. That’s a lot. But here’s my Tl;dr

[Spoilers ahead. Also CW for some talk about SA in the webnovel.]

Just in case you don't feel like reading a 2,000 word character analysis and musing on men, women, and the treatment of gender in ORV.

Because ORV is largely told from Kim Dokja’s perspective, his view of gender and their roles is incredibly impactful on the narrative and the story we’re told.

That trickles down into how we’re shown characters and, in turn, how he values certain traits attributed to his concept of gender roles.

In the real world, pre-scenarios, he’s only seen the worst of men. From his father to his bullies to assholes at work — men just suck.

Enter Yoo Joonghyuk, the fictional hero of Ways of Survival.

YJH’s masculinity is, to Kim Dokja, what every man should really strive to be. Yes, he’s very strong and very handsome — but he's also deeply emotionally complex. He also cooks, cleans, and raised a baby all by himself, SO.

Add women to the mix: KDJ is absolutely surrounded by strong and resilient women right from the jump. We saw what Han Sooyoung and Kim Sookyoung did with the little fuzzy knowledge they had in the early scenarios. I can’t even imagine what they could have done with KDJ’s reference material.

All that combined makes female Kim Dokja just... honestly a powerhouse of a character to explore in my opinion.

Men in the "real world."

Growing up, Kim Dokja's male role models were... lackluster. At best. And Kim Dokja didn't fit any of the forms of masculinity presented to him.

His father, the first male role model in most children’s lives, was an abusive piece of shit.

At school, he was bullied by other boys.

Moreover, he wasn't able to thrive in the army, nor could he thrive in a white collar environment (see: Han Myungoh).

And why the fuck would he want to be like that guy?

So Kim Dokja's male role model was found in a web novel. Yoo Joonghyuk, a fictional character, captured his attention.

Yoo Joonghyuk is what Kim Dokja believes an ideal man should be from his beginning all the way to his end — round zero to 1863 and beyond. He wants to be like that guy.

Yoo Joonghyuk = complex, strong, deeply emotional but resilient

Men in the real world = churlish, brutish, villainous, or otherwise just meatheads.

That leads me to men in the early scenarios.

From the earliest scenarios, Kim Dokja is surrounded by strong women. Right from the jump.

Yoo Sangah adjusts to the new world almost immediately. Jung Heewon's sense of justice makes her the strongest member of the group. Han Sooyoung is a BAMF. Lee Seolhwa is the smartest person in the room and the only woman who's ever caught and held Yoo Joonghyuk's attention. Hell, Shin Yoosoung is Kim Dokja's powerhouse ward and loyal follower — to the point that she reincarnates herself without her memories to serve his purpose.

Aside from Lee Hyunsung, whom Kim Dokja often describes as a being a real stand up guy, the only man he spends real significant amount of time with is Yoo Joonghyuk.

We have to remember that this story is from Kim Dokja's perspective, so it's entirely possible that there were other men around, but that he just didn't see it that way.

At any rate, the worst, least complex characters are often the men of the story. This is especially true of the men in the early scenarios, which show Kim Dokja’s POV a little more straightforwardly, so I’m going to use them as primary examples.

Take, for example, Chapter 17: Ep. 4 - Line of Hypocrisy, II. Here, Kim Dokja has come upon a disheveled Jung Heewon who's dying in the street with her "jacket...half removed and a bit of her skirt...torn," left for dead lying in the streets, slowly dying from poison gas. He assumes she's been sexually assaulted.

He quickly figures out who the attackers are, because they try to attack him too. When Uriel starts a bounty scenario to take the villains down, Kim Dokja says this:

And again:

Men in the real world = churlish, brutish, villainous, or otherwise just meatheads.

Let's get even more literal here.

Take, for example, Song Minwoo, a bully from the pre-scenario world who shows up during the scenarios as a literal monster.

This is a villanous male in Kim Dokja's life who, coincidentally, has some of the same knowledge as him, having read some of the chapters of Ways of Survival. And he learned nothing, except how to bully better.

Yo FUCK that guy.

Let's go for another example.

Quality Assurance Dept. Deputy Yoon Sangho and the Mino Soft coin farm.

Coincidentally (completely on purpose) in the same chapter we meet Song Minwoo, we're introduced to another male character who was actually not antagonistic IRL.

Guess what? He's antagonistic now.

As a quick recap, when Kim Dokja gets there, he finds that the coin farm has captured Han Sooyoung. They plan to "make content" with her, and Yoon Sangho offers Kim Dokja a first go at her if he gives them more resources.

Read panels left to right, top to bottom.

Ew.

So much ew.

ANYWAY. Will reiterate the pattern here:

Men in the real world = churlish, brutish, villainous, or otherwise just meatheads.

I don't think it's a stretch for sexual violence to be considered a man's weapon. I also don't think it's a stretch to imagine that Kim Dokja, in spite of knowing this, won't attribute it to gender verbally — he'll just show us how he sees it. That's... kind of his thing.

Let's touch on Yoo Joonghyuk as Kim Dokja's Masthead for just a second before getting into the women of ORV.

I won't get into the later scenarios too much, because a majority of the new male characters are transient aside from Yoo Joonghyuk and his various regressions. And then we get POVs from (ahem) other characters.

So I'll get into YJH's regressions.

I've really hammered in how much men suck in ORV, but not really much about why Yoo Joonghyuk isn't like that. He's Kim Dokja's companion. His foil. (The love of his life.)

This is where things get complicated, because this guy is literally Kim Dokja's role model and, in a lot of ways, the center of his universe.

But that's why it's also most interesting part.

Yoo Joonghyuk remains the masthead. And it's not for his physical strength.

In spite of all of his changes in personality, he's still the same person underneath, who's fundamentally lonely and depressed as all hell. He's seen lifetimes of loss and goes on to transcend humanity, time, and space to become a fucking god. Even so, he perseveres through it to find the very end.

That emotional resilience and strength is what Kim Dokja admires in his only male role model.

Now let’s turn our eyes to the women in ORV.

Oh, this is so juicy.

The characters that show the most development in both the short and long time, with the exception of Lee Hyunsung, are women. I'm just gonna name some of the women in the early scenarios. There are so, so, so many other examples, from constellations to YJH's mentor, etc.

In order of appearance (I think):

Yoo Sangah

The most adaptable character of the earlier chapters

She starts chapter 1 as a high-achieving, kind of prim lady. She very quickly makes a deal with her constellation to become a badass who wears a catsuit, becoming stronger and stronger, kicking asses and taking names. She's also still good with kids.

Once it's established she's not a love interest, though, her prominence largely fades from the story. Side-eye.

Jung Heewon

Literally the best person KDJ knows. The moral high-ground and trauma-buster.

As previously mentioned, her first appearance in ORV is as an SA victim. Within about 10 minutes of reading time, she shows that she's able to put aside her trauma and discomfort to get shit done (a very traditionally masculine trait, by the way). She serves as the absolute good of KimCom and is often portrayed at the angel on his shoulder. She's also one of the strongest characters in the series by the end.

Shin Yoosoung

The little girl who believed she was evil, and eventually became it until she defied her fate.

A little girl who will one day become a villain. It can't be understated how complex this girl's trauma is from the moment we meet her, especially knowing that her fate is to be betrayed and trapped in slavery for all of eternity.

Kim Sookyung

The Wanderer King, Kim Dokjas mother, a false villain.

Fate did Kim Sookie dirty.

First of all, she introduced Kim Dokja to reading and the joy of reading things again and again, which eventually led him to Ways of Survival.

When Kim Dokja killed his abusive father as a young child, she framed herself so that she'd take the fall for the incident.

She wrote a book to collect royalties and help him live an independent life while she was in prison. To protect him from the truth, she let herself be the villain to her own son.

He held onto that — he was bullied in school because of her, and he didn't know the truth. So he resented her.

And when the truth came out, and Kim Dokja realized she wasn't the villain, she was eaten by the Fourth Wall. Holy shit. Of course, she was spit right back out when Dokja begged for it, but holy shit.

Long story short: not only was she not a villain, she maintained an unconditional familial and selfless love for Kim Dokja and protected him from the worst trauma imaginable by taking on the role of a villain.

Kim Dokja as a woman.

In my opinion. Just mine. Based on all the above.

Kim Dokja as a woman in explorative fics is fascinating to me.

As someone who's never resonated with traditionally masculinity, admired the story for what it was, defied it in the way he did, and admired the protagonist in a deeply emotional way, I just... just...

AH.

Ruthless, cunning, manipulative, largely (largely) asexual (we don't have to get into that here), and probably (maybe?) aromantic (definitely aromantic) — these are all traits that subvert traditional femininity too.

And I have to say — the family of cishet wiil-they-won't-they tropes could also be greatly subverted here, because this isn't a romance. It's a story about companionship.

I want emotional intimacy without the physical intimacy. I want the physical intimacy without the emotional intimacy. I want platonic love explored without emotional or physical intimacy at all.

But most importantly, I want it from a female character. Because I think that would be fucking cool. I’m tired of “woman with bow and arrow hates dresses and isn’t like other girls,” and I’m also tired of, “woman likes dresses but goes so super traditionally feminine that she eschews any masculine traits at all.” There’s a flavor of empowerment in both. But I want to see a next evolution, pleeeease.

[betawooper]

[ID: A written passage featuring Jang Hayoung and Kim Dokja from Omniscient Reader. Hayoung is referred to with masculine terms. Joonghyuk, who is mentioned in their conversation, is transfem. Transcript:

Hayoung sighed and rolled his eyes. “Mister, are you really this clueless? Did you forget that only women can learn the Breaking the Sky Swordsmanship?”

Come to think of it... the Breaking the Sky Swordsmanship was like that. At least it should have. There were too many exceptions. For example, Yoo Joonghyuk. 

Ah, then again, Joonghyuk ended up being a woman later anyways and instantly grew better at the style for it. I suppose she didn’t really count as an exception. 

Then, there was the guy petting a dog constellation in front of me...

Wait a minute.

Hayoung looked at me, raising an eyebrow. “Why are you looking at me like that?”

“No, it’s nothing.” I said quickly, biting the inside of my cheek.

There was no way the second protagonist of the story I essentially created was that similar to the main protagonist herself. That would be so shameful.

I shook my head to get rid of my thoughts.

End ID.]

being trans and constantly making your own characters trans on accident would almost be a curse if the concept of being trans didnt fuck so severely, but thats my opinion i guess

[kimdokja-real]

Boyfriend.

Crying boyfriend.

Pathetic crying boyfriend who can't even wait a bit to post this post.

I ruined his life *cry*

I'm toxic *cry*

I should be the uke *cry* the bottom

But I Love him so much...

I'm Ecacenos. It doesn't matter if I reveal my real name here anyway.

He used to Call me Eca.

So Cute.

The Kim Dokja to my Yoo Joonghyuk, why did you leave? I'm sorry I guess we hyped it all up and in the end there was no result.

Always no result. When you worked harder than anyone else.

Our God, we miss you so badly. Only a god can survive all that.

you're not the devil, i'm the devil.

The Kim Dokja to my Yoo Joonghyuk. Leaving me behind with all your scars deep inside.

The Yoo Joonghyuk to me, Kim Dokja. Just going off on your own when you've had enough, not telling anyone else.

The Kim Dokja to my Yoo Joonghyuk.

The Yoo Joonghyuk to my Kim Dokja.

My Everything.

I'm so Sorry I Made you Delete all the Dokjoong Posts, basically Deleted your whole Career. And I Felt Happy about it,,,,,,,,I was Toxic.

Now even magic can't bring them back. There's no Magic.

A Gay Guy being Bullied, mistaken as trans...but you stood up more than anyone else. You stood up for people more than anyone else.

Maybe we actually Deserve a Seke relationship? Maybe your fandom stuff has you thinking you're bottom?

I don't know, I just miss you.

Did I make you too feminine? I'm sorry.

I'm just Sorry for everything.

I Just Want to Take Care Of You.

Problems with my Masculinity indeed.

I'm Sorry I couldn't be a good 'Seme'.

I just miss my Yoo Joonghyuk...

My Kim Dokja.

He Shone Brighter than Anyone else.

[betawooper]

[ID: A written passage featuring Kim Dokja and Yoo Joonghyuk from Omniscient Reader. Joonghyuk is referred to with she/her pronouns. Transcript:

Joonghyuk crossed her arms and shifted back up the seat to sit on it more properly. “I don’t care what you say. You’re wrong. You must be more idiotic than I thought.”

I groaned, because god dammit—

“I fucking knew you would say that, you stubborn bitch! This is why I refused to tell you! This is why I kept avoiding the subject. Yet, you kept asking and threatening and—god, I despise this part about you so damn much, you piece of shit—”

“I’m unsure what the issue is. Can’t you see me?” She gestured at her own masculine form, and huffed lightheartedly. “I am most certainly not one of those people.” 

If I received ten coins every time Joonghyuk had that thought in TWSA, I could have funded a decent C-grade blunt force weapon to smack some sense into her thick fucking skull.

End ID.]

transfem joonghyuk in orv turns it into a comedy

[kimdokja-real]

HI, we're the Friends of this guy, kimdokja-real.

Don't mind our Capitalization, we do it so things seem more Significant for him, it's a long story.

Just our turn to be typing, so yeah we're his friends and we just want to let the world know what an adorable, cool, cute, amazing being he is.

I'm sure you know Dokjoong right? Ok so this person does things without knowing the impact he has on others (like how you'll be excited that he's a guy?). Right so he turned Dokjoong from nothing into Something, and his notes got like 700+ notes and he even received asks despite it being a new blog and it being Dokjoong which was quite looked down upon.

But he doesn't see the Impact he has.

Also about Dokjoong being deleted........it was an emotional conflict between him and his Boyfriend, who can be quite a toxic person. So they agreed and Deleted everything of Dokjoong.

Well hard as it seems, even though he was bottomjoonghyuk, this person was more Kim Dokja than Yoo Joonghyuk at that time, and his Boyfriend occupied the role of Yoo Joonghyuk, like suddenly thrusting him into a new World, and there were emotional complications even though they were mildly good for each other. They Love each other very much, but his boyfriend can be so toxic at times...

His Boyfriend is a good person, but he's possessive af like Yoo Joonghyuk. He Sounds Cute in the Voice Recording but believe us he can be a hell of a yandere at times......

So anyway since they held roles of Kim Dokja and Yoo Joonghyuk during that emotionally complicated moment, 'Kim Dokja' acquiescenced and deleted every Dokjoong post

His boyfriend had some problems with his Masculinity at that time

It was a toxic relationship, and his friends were toxic too........but anyway, now's a new start.

We plan to take care of this person really well. He didn't say it of course but he was bullied. So he can have some trouble coming out of his shell. For example, we think his voice is Super nice, even sexy, but he thinks it's boring or just Normal.

And his family hasn't been very supportive either, the mother was really commanding (another reason why it changed to kimdokja-real, his Blog name) and income was an issue and there was a lot of responsibility well this person........He just went through a lot.

So he'll be doing new things, we want to explore his Talents and him as a person......for example like for his previous fics, he can't believe people still like them. When a person went to his current fic and said 'i know you're out of the fandom but can you.......provide me the link to your blog, it doesn't seem to work'.

Normal people would know it means you're popular enough right? Well this person really worked hard, harder than god, and yeah..........he has a lot of scars (that's why we named him kimdokja) and he can't believe he can have good things or even Deserve them.

I Know it may be sad to know this about an Author you really like, but this is the truth. So we'll be controlling his life a bit (hence the Voice acting), and also new JoongDok fic (when he didn't write JoongDok before and even disapproved of it, personal story) pushing him out of his comfort zone, but we'll always take care of his feelings and be there for him, our kimdokja and also yoojoonghyuk.

This Guy is a Being, but how to say........we think he doesn't think he Deserves the Right to be Human. Or even Act Human

I know there are some who think he's literally perfect, giving you your Dokjoong like from a God, when it was impossible. Well he's Impossible........but I think he's been impossible enough, and we'll try to get him to speak about his feelings and be more Human.

Like Someone sent an Ask asking if He's Alright...but he Never posted it, just left it in his ask box, like he doesn't know how to reply.

Anyway, we'll just be helping him become more human.