#lis discourse

[werewolf-cuddles]

So yeah, as it turns out, trying to avoid making one ending canon over the other doesn't work all the time.

It worked reasonably well in the second game and Wavelengths because Max and Chloe were not directly involved in the story, so that final choice was the only thing they needed to account for.

It doesn't quite work as neatly when you bring Max back and make her the main character again. If you're treating both endings as canon, then you need to explain what happened to Chloe in the event that players chose to save her over Arcadia Bay.

And quite understandably, having them split up during the timeskip has not gone over well with a good chunk of the fanbase. Whether it makes sense for them to drift apart or not isn't relevant, breaking up a couple offscreen is inevitably going to make fans of that couple feel shitty.

No matter what, it's impossible to have Double Exposure respect both endings equally, because having Chloe and Max break up offscreen inherently disrespects everything they had to go through to be together in the first place.

This may or may not end up being an unpopular take, but in my opinion, Double Exposure should have only taken place in the Sacrifice Chloe timeline. It makes sense for the Max of that timeline to end up where she does in DE, not so much for the Max of the Sacrifice Arcadia Bay timeline.

Also, because people are being rubbed the wrong way by the "We were high school sweethearts" line, I should point out that it is very unlikely that she will say those words verbatim. The reveal stream did not show us what she actually says if you pick that option, and the actual dialogue always differs from the choices.

[styxhuntress]

The way Buck is treated is absolutely heartbreaking.

On the surface yes, maybe the 118 does look like a found family unit. And most of them have a good family bond with one another. But not with Buck. (Long rant below the cut)

Buck has the biggest heart out of anyone on the show. He is constantly going out of his way to help people. This is particularly prominent with Eddie, but he does this for so many characters.

He lets Hen, Eddie and Chim stay with him during the lockdown, never asks them to help pay rent, and then later lets Albert stay with him with no complaint.

He is constantly babysitting Chris and later Jee while their respective parents go do other things, and while he clearly loves spending time with them this is definitely a massive favor on his part because babysitting kids is hard work.

He is always there to support them when they need it.

He’s the one that prompts them to check on Bobby in season 1.

He is there for Chim as best he can when Maddie leaves.

When Maddie shows up at his apartment in Season 2 he doesn’t get angry with her for essentially breaking into his home and helping herself to a bottle of wine. And instead helps her settle down with a safe new job and becomes her shoulder to cry on during this period.

He drops everything when Eddie asks for his help, when Eddie mentions issues with childcare and paperwork for Chris Buck introduces him to Carla.

When Eddie has to bring Chris to the station Buck calls ahead so Bobby can get permission.

When Eddie gets shot Buck takes over Chris’s care without prompting.

When Eddie has issues with parenting Chris he calls Buck for help and Buck helps.

When Eddie has a meltdown and takes a bat to the wall, not only does Buck drop everything and run to help him, he also goes further by taking eddie to see the kid they saved the day he was shot.

Whenever Eddie needed anything Buck was there.

When Eddie desperately needed a sub letter so that he could move Buck went and took over the lease.

When he found out Eddie was moving he went and did what he could to help him despite being devastated.

Whenever anyone needed anything, Buck was there. And Buck was always happy to do it.

But when Buck was feeling abandoned after the embolism no one reached out, instead Eddie dumped Chris on him under the pretense of getting him out and about and stop moping for the day.

When Maddie left, no one thought to ask Buck how he was doing. Instead they focused entirely on Chim. And when Chim punched Buck no one at any point stood up for Buck, instead going on about how Chim is under a lot of distress right now as though Buck isn’t also feeling the loss and worry of his Sister up and leaving.

When Buck filed the lawsuit they almost all immediately went and put all the blame on Buck. Hen was the only one to point out that they were all Buck had, that he had no other family outside the 118. Despite that they still punished him, Eddie taking his anger out on Buck because the lawsuit meant Buck couldn’t bail him out and he couldn’t spend time with Chris and never once saying he missed Buck too. He was pissed because Buck couldn’t drop everything and help him. He was accused of being reckless and impulsive and using their own issues for his own gain and for being selfish and stupid and exhausting despite the fact that he was being treated unfairly. He was hurt, and alone and just needed a hug.

When Buck found out about Daniel and distanced himself from Maddie, Chimney started borderline harassing Buck trying to get him to talk to her, despite a) Buck having had a major bombshell dropped on him, getting his entire life put into a new perspective based on this information, and finding out why his parents treated him the way they did and so needing to process, and B) Buck repeatedly setting boundaries and saying he needed space to process and he’d talk to Maddie when he was ready. Chimney completely ignores Buck’s boundaries as though what Buck needs or wants doesn’t matter because Maddie is upset and wants to talk to him, and only her desires and emotional well being have any level of importance and despite asking for space she literally ambushes him at work to force a conversation he is not ready for. And no one else tries telling Chim to leave Buck alone, and then Eddie only has a half assed conversation with Buck despite being his so called best friend, where he basically dismisses Buck’s feelings and tells him he’s over reacting.

When Eddie was leaving and Buck was upset he was repeatedly accused of making it about himself, being selfish, unreasonable, unsupportive and a jerk when he literally just found out from nowhere that Eddie made a down payment just overheard his best friend basically dismiss their friendship (“I have no ties here, everything that matters is in Texas”) he gets judged and berated for being upset, as though he’s not allowed to have feelings, and when he tries to apologize for his snarkiness gets once again berated and when he finally tells Eddie that he took over the lease and thus he can move, aka the ultimate supportive action, not once does Eddie apologize.

When Buck breaks up with Tommy no one bothers to really check in with him on a deeper level, instead they dismiss his wants by stealing his phone so that he can’t call him and then no one brings it up again despite him clearly still being devastated for every following episode.

When Buck gets SA’d by the therapist he is immediately getting made fun of, and accused of being a manwhore and essentially blamed for being assaulted. No one ever, not once, bothers to wonder if he’s doing alright.

And when Buck is still waiting for Abby to come back rather than being supportive or anything like that he gets laughed at for living in his girlfriend’s apartment and being dumb enough to think she’ll come back.

When Eddie gets a new friend he immediately starts spending all his free time with that friend and never inviting Buck, even if they were planning something Buck would enjoy, instead asking if Buck can babysit (his kid is 14/15 at this point and just because he has CP I still think he can spend a couple of hours home alone. He’s not bedridden or anything.) and basically ignoring his supposed best friend in favor of his shiny new friend.

Whenever Buck needed anything he was laughed at, belittled and dismissed. They constantly take advantage of his kindness. Buck gives and gives and gives to them and gets nothing back. He is only wanted when he can be useful and when they need him. They take and take and take and the second Buck needs even a small amount of empathy or help he gets accused of being selfish, needy, exhausting, of making everything about him, of overreacting. He is essentially told, over and over that he is not allowed to have feelings or boundaries. He is not allowed to need help he can only give help. He is only valued when he can do something for someone else and godforbid he ever ask for the same consideration because otherwise he’s being needy. He makes everyone else his priority and never is he anyone’s priority in return.

Until Tommy anyway, he finally had someone who would take care of him, who acknowledged his feelings and showed him they were valid, who clearly adored all of Buck and never asked him for anything and indulged in his quirks and who was happy to be there for him, who complimented him and who overall clearly adored Buck. Even before they were dating when Tommy saw that Buck clearly was feeling left out he went over to his place to apologize, despite not actually doing anything wrong himself.

I seriously think that if Tommy saw how they all treated Buck he’d lose the delusion that they are basically a family really fast and promptly get pissed on Buck’s behalf. He’d also do everything in his power to help Buck realize that he matters as a person.

[nudityandnerdery]

Necromancy is unethical, but not because of the stealing bodies or whatever. It's because when wizards use Animate Dead, it's probably AI doing the art. I don't see any artists getting hired for this animation. They aren't paying for art. You can't trust wizards.

[lux-drm]

Friendly reminder that it's OKAY for people to NOT like a certain LI. All reasons are valid.

Context: TWT/X and some groups here in FB being mad that some players find Caleb's (let's be honest, he's very realistic with it too) isolating behaviour very triggering, saying "it's just pixels," and "this must be your first otome." Have a little more empathy please 😭🙏 some people play to escape their reality, not witness it again in their comfort game. Like, I don't bitch about it when my friend says she hates Rafayel. It's not that different from reading a book with heavy themes and being uncomfortable with it. It's okay, take a break. 🫶

[louferrignojrofficial]

buddie scenes in an episode ≠ a good episode. it’s crazy how some people watch buck and eddie have scenes together and then they loved the episodes and have little to no questions about the logic or the actual storylines. it’s just all a path to buddie canon and about how they are in love with each other.

[rat-rosemary]

"I wish there was more queer mcyts"

You guys couldn't handle Dream

[asm5129]

I’m playing the new life is strange game and apparently people are pissed at how it handles following up the original because OF COURSE THEY ARE.

The first game has two endings, one where Chloe survives and one where she dies.

Officially, neither is the “canon” ending, that’s been made repeatedly clear since the original game released.

But a bunch of people keep demanding more of the Max and Chloe story. It doesn’t matter that they’ve gotten comics about it and a prequel, they still want more. They don’t want to let Life is Strange be an anthology series.

So here, Max is back as the protagonist. But guess what? Chloe isn’t a main character.

Because she fucking DIED in one of the endings, and both are canon.

So even if you choose to play in the timeline where she survived, they had to write her out or they would have had to develop two different games, one with Chloe and one without.

So instead they made it an interesting character issue. Max is stuck in the past, in the trauma of the events of the first game while Chloe wants to move forward.

It was never going to be Max and Chloe living happily ever after. It couldn’t be.

That’s not an interesting game, and it flies in the face of the ending of the original.

This game is in many ways rooted in Max dealing with that trauma and like…that’s an interesting story.

But you’re mad because the story you wanted isn’t the story they made, even though that was literally never going to happen.

The LiS fandom is shitty sometimes

Very gatekeep-y

There’s a sort of notion that there’s only one way for a Life is Strange game to be Life is Strange, but the people that buy into that don’t seem to realize that their criteria is literally just the game that already exists.

Maybe I’d give more credibility to the current criticisms if I hadn’t had to deal with YEARS of so-called “fans” harassing me for being a legitimate fan of every LiS entry, rather than just the ones it’s most popular to like. I have had to deal with this toxic gatekeeping and backlash for fucking EVER so it’s hard to give much of a shit about y’all not getting exactly what you want here.

[werewolf-cuddles]

I sincerely hope that Max has both male and female love interests again in Double Exposure so the fandom will hopefully, maybe, finally stop erasing her bisexuality

[dottores]

people do not appreciate writing as a form of art, they just treat it as a product to mass consume and complain if its not perfectly to their liking

[scarefox]

whatever is going on in here, glad I am distracted with renovating my flat

The only thing I say is that Spare Me Your Mercy was amazing, one of the best shows for me.

I don't care that the romance plot isn't standard / regular / normal / linear. These guys are a bit weird, love can be weird and have layers and a spectrum. Humans are irrational, contradicting sometimes, feelings over logic. So can be fictional characters. Just flow with it. Accept them as they are with their flaws, instead of being mad they don't fit in regular romance plot boxes. Instead of saying "that is impossible" say "crazy that it is possible for them, i wonder what different corners and paths they went in their brain to land there".

And yes I get that they didn't want to add too much horny in a show that is constantly about death, dying, killing, euthanasia, one being an on-off murder suspect. That's not censorship, That's respect for the topic. Despite that they did kiss and had sex at the end when the pressure of the investigation was gone. The investigation + grief was the reason for Tiu to hold back the whole time. I also get why he started to love Kan between all of that. First of all he's adorable and smart and an open communicator when he doesn't try to hide his illegal side service. He is an ideal partner for him if they weren't on the opposite sides of the law.

[sonik-kun]

Expecting Jiang Cheng to do more about the abuse Wei Wuxian went through is low-key kinda skewed and messed up considering that;

A.) JC was a kid himself. And;

B.) JC was also the victim of abuse. He was scared of his mother. Even then he still spoke out in abject horror when she was forced to punish WWX in front of the Wen. Funny how JC antis willingly ignore that.

Blaming a CHILD for another child's abuse is victim blaming. No one is to blame other than the abuser themselves. Which, if you remember, JC was also a victim of. Mental and emotional abuse is also harmful and damaging just like physical abuse.

[louferrignojrofficial]

idk how everyone is so positive about this honestly. the question is literally whether the relationship is in the past and then he says ‘yes for sure but tommy could come back but not for a romantic thing!’

all i see is what happened with abby all over again. i wish i could be positive but i’m sorry. i can’t.

[whatsjulietslastname]

expending on the mlm pricefield thing (and i’m not talking about double exposure anymore), i think if pricefield had been one of the first mlm pairing to be openly queer in video games history, it would’ve been way more of a big deal back when the game was released and years later. i also think little to no people would be debating whether their relationship is platonic or not, and people would’ve been way faster at jumping to the conclusion that you were homophobic if you thought they were.

historically, the most popular mlm pairings (i’m thinking johnlock, kirk and spock from star trek, merlin and arthur, all the h*rry p*tter and marvel gay ships) have a way bigger fanbase and are way less denied than the wlw ones (i’m thinking supercop, emma swan and regina mills, betty and veronica from riverdale etc). (for the record, i looked up “queerbaiting” to make this post and have examples, and found like a dozens of mlm pairings and always the same few wlw ones…) AND it is way more socially acceptable to say “those two women have a platonic relationship” whereas, if you do the same with johnlock, for instance, you WILL get an angry twenty paragraphs long reply about how there was nothing platonic about it (even though John Watson married a woman).

my point is not “he married a woman so he wasn’t queer” my point is, whenever one part of a wlw pairing has a boyfriend, or a man who she shows a glimpse of interest in (*cough cough* Warren Graham *cough cough*), it is IMMEDIATELY used as ‘evidence’ that this character cannot be queer since she can be in a heterosexual relationship — which is an argument that, again, you will practically never find directed at a gay ship. and, again, the few people who do use this argument against mlm pairings are called ‘homophobic’.

AGAIN, i am not saying that you cannot ship Warren and Max or are homophobic if you do, i’m saying that if Chloe and Max had been two guys, people would’ve been so focused on them, on Max’s diary’s entries, and the two possible kisses they can share onscreen, and the flirting and implications in their relationship, and Chloe’s obvious attraction to Max, that grahamfield would’ve had a way smaller fanbase — or no fanbase at all. and people would’ve absolutely disregarded the fact that you can make Max romance Warren (who is a girl in this scenario). they would’ve seen Warren’s nearly one-sided flirting, and would’ve immediately gone “she (Warren) is in love with him (Max) and he doesn’t give a fuck” (and the kiss in the Two Whales would’ve been collectively ignored by the entire fandom, as is Mary Watson, or Pepper Potts, or Tonks, or Ginny Weasley).

but BECAUSE Max and Chloe are girls, people are still debating whether she is even queer or not by saying “if i make her romance Warren she experiences no attraction towards Chloe and therefore is straight” which is false, because the attraction is HERE. all you, as a player, get to decide is whether or not Max acts on it. and no matter how much evidence there is that Max is indeed romantically interested in Chloe, you will NEVER convince those people, because to them, the moment a woman and a guy interact in a non-platonic way, this woman has to end up with said guy, no matter how queer-coded her relationship with another woman is.

and now that pricefield is broken up, people who would’ve been rioting if it had been guys are calling people who are rightfully upset ‘dramatic’. just try and imagine the reaction of the Sherlock fandom if Sherlock was returning without Watson because “they argued off-screen and decided to stop seeing each other”. those guys aren’t childhood best friends, are never romantically involved, their fandom hasn’t been begging to have a glimpse of them together for ten years, and yet i can’t even imagine how angry people would be. all this fandom was asking was to at least not destroy Max and Chloe’s friendship, and look where we are now.

[a-mel0n]

there is no fucking way i had a decent conversation with a bvddie shipper on reddit talking abt why we liked our respective ships without hating on the other only for them to make a comment abt my reasoning on a separate post in the bvddie subreddit saying how baffled they were abt my reasoning and that all the points i brought up were applicable to eddie 💀

[kinnbig]

in relation to this tweet from Jojo, which I love - I’m amazed by the number of posts I’ve seen suggesting that Nick is an innocent victim of manipulation from Boston. no one is saying Boston isn’t messy as fuck, but he’s been so clear about his feelings and what he is/isn’t looking for. he’s told Nick multiple times that while their relationship might develop in the future, he is only interested in casual sex for now - and Nick has willingly agreed to this kind of casual, non-exclusive relationship. Boston has absolutely no obligation to be ‘faithful’ to Nick, or to tell him which of his friends he’s attracted to. Nick wanting things to be different doesn’t make it so.

violating privacy and boundaries is clearly a theme with Nick - he expresses interest in Boston by leaving suggestive photos on Boston’s phone, having already gone through (and jerked off to) Boston’s personal pictures. bugging his car takes it a step further.

(I think there’s something to be said about the way Boston’s promiscuity and open sexuality seems to make his right to privacy seem trivial or less important than that of someone more reserved - it’s fine that Nick jerked off to Boston’s personal photos, because Boston slept with him after; Nick only secretly recoded Boston having sex because Boston led him on; Boston’s a whore, so it doesn’t matter, he was asking for it… but that’s a post for another day)

this isn’t to say that Boston is an innocent victim of Nick’s behaviour either - my point is that categorising them simply as Manipulator and Victim is reductive to the complexity of both characters. they’re both interesting, fucked up, flawed people, and that’s what makes them compelling as characters - and what makes it fun to watch as they make each other worse.

[antimony-medusa]

on Consequences in minecraft streaming

Okay so one of the real common things that I've been seeing lately is an increasingly passionate call for certain characters to experience Consequences (and the rest of the post always makes it clear that they mean a specific type of definatively negative repercussions) for their actions during QSMP events. And aside from the absolute deja vu of having seen these same calls when DSMP was airing, and how that turned out (sorry, the syndicate did not all have a meeting where they apologized for their sins while tommy told them they were horrible people), I'm not 100% sure if that's going to happen or pan out in the exact way that I think people are aiming for and expecting will happen.

I keep seeing a lot of people saying that it would be bad writing if people don't get "consequences" for their actions, and what they're specifically asking for is punishment and for people to realize what they're doing was wrong. BBH is supposed to repent for furniture thefts and torturing the people keeping him from his kid. Phil is supposed to realize that actually he's good at PVP and apologize for saying that his team has been suffering in purgatory. Tubbo is supposed to fill in his tubhole and only do things other people ask him to do.

But like, so much of the time, what we're seeing is these streamers being interested in writing morally grey characters, just some little guys who make bad decisions, and the thing about characters being morally grey is that they don't always have a come to jesus moment and become morally pure. Sometimes they just keep being morally grey. Sometimes they get worse on purpose.

Maybe BBH never decides that torturing that guy was bad, because he wanted to get his FUCKING KID back. Like, I seriously think you have to be prepared for that character arc to never end in Bad going "that was wrong to do", and maybe his cubito will still be happy. Phil is a dude with anxiety who's been sure that his kids are going to die from the moment he got to purgatory, streaming at 1-4 in the morning while other teams break into their base, even if bolas goes insane and scrapes out a win I think it's way more likely that that team is gonna go "what a wild fluke that's the power of gas masks" and not have a moment where they go "it was unfair of us to assume that we were underpowered, I guess everybody else was the underdogs! Our bad." Tubbo is tubbo, he's already building a new create thing, he is not going to apologize for leaving marks on the landscape with mod packs.

Like, the streamers are interested in making human characters, making interesting decisions, not communicating moral lessons to their fanbases. Bad is operating within a Taken film, not a sermon. Quackity wants his cubito to be pathetic, gay, and out for revenge, not to communicate the importance of forgiveness to those who hurt you. Tubbo's victory condition is having a nice date with Fred, full stop, does not care who he has to run over to get there.

Absolutely I think there are people intentionally doing corruption/villany arcs on the server, and they probably intend for that to lead places. There will be Consequences, as in, things will happen. Cellbit is doing cannibalsm on purpose, and not as a teaching moment about how good cannibalism is for your social bonds. But like, maybe that leads to him being thrown out of his family and not trusted because of his sins, OR maybe it leads to him murdering his way through a federation complex, facing down a bloody cucurucho, and going "you made me into you and I hate this" and eating him. Narrative consequences does not always mean punishment and a return to moral purity. Sometimes people just do bad things, and then repercussions happen, but they don't necessarily "see the error of their ways". The specific call for like— retribution and repentance as the consequences people are going for— for punishment— if a character has done something bad they don't "deserve" good things to happen to them and it's bad writing for that to happen— I just don't think that those are the stories the creators are necessarily interested in telling.

And secondly, what people are often asking for is character conflict— they want people to be socially excluded by characters they feel have been wronged, and learn the error of their ways that way until they apologize sufficiently. Phil is gonna hate BBH or Tubbo is going to hate Roier or something once they return from Purgatory. People want their cubitos to have beef with each other.

But the thing is, on a meta level, I don't doubt that the entire admin team and streaming team on QSMP is just screamingly aware that this fandom cannot be trusted with conflict. The election was just part of it, but I made it through the election, and Purgatory has been so much more unpleasant— and I am not just talking about twitter. This website, tumblr, has been full of people fighting each other for their teams. And I am not just saying "red team fans have been bad", because boy have I been staring in horrified awe at the takes that some red team people have been putting forward (what on EARTH do you mean BBH deserves to have his kid die, touch grass immediately), but if I step outside of red team circles, everyone is talking about how red team people are horrible hypocrites who win too much and only deserve to suffer (I saw this posting the day that blue had back to back wins, so it isn't even tied to how well red is doing). The quality of the discourse has been increasingly unpleasant, and this has been taking place in streamer's chats, on twitter, in discords, and here on tumblr.

Every QSMP streamer is increasingly aware that having conflict with another streamer is basically sending a wave of negativity their way, and setting off bombs in the fandom at the same time. And they're all friends with each other! Sometimes they decide that the story beat they're going for is worth it and just tell each other to stay off twitter, but like, you have got to be prepared that maybe they will just be friends again. And that might be weaker writing, for people to keep forgiving each other, but that is an unfortunate aspect of the technical aspects of this medium and this fandom. Maybe the creators would be more willing to have character conflict if they didn't know that that meant the person they were mad at in-game would get death threats on social media.

Like no fucking wonder Phil apologized for getting mad at Wil within the same stream and before Wil said sorry to him. This is why the French have given up on revolution arcs, you know it's why the women are all very careful to get along with people. All of those creators know the cost of making anyone into a villain, and I'm just saying maybe get prepared that we won't have inner-party conflict. Maybe they'll decide it's worth it for a fun story moment! Maybe they won't. Maybe don't get 100% married to the idea that the only good writing possible moving forward is for people to be thrown out of the community and then repent for their sins.