#monogamy

[daybrightsims]

Alright, they've lived in my brain too long; Time to air out my thoughts about the polyamory in BG3

To give a little context: I am currently ethically non-monogamous with my primary partner of almost 7 years. I am not a monolith of thought when it comes to polyamory/ENM/open relationships. These are my own personal thoughts and feelings. I've also completed the game with Astarion and Halsin romanced. Spoilers ahead, read at your own risk.

TL;DR - I don't share the current opinion of whether or not Astarion is okay with Tav pursuing Halsin and the discourse around his agency and choices in the relationship are bumming me out and frustrating me.

I am getting increasingly frustrated about the conversation about Astarion being polyamorous/okay with Tav being with Halsin in the game, primarily because I think a lot of the "think pieces" are coming from 1) monogamous people who have only ever been monogamous, 2) monogamous people who have been burned/cheated on/forced into polyamory by a partner (I feel for ya'll, that wasn't okay), 3) people who are very VERY protective of Astarion, and 4) people who are blatantly uncomfortable with polyamory. My goal is not to invalidate anyone's experiences, but to share an alternate perspective.

I do think that Astarion is not only okay, but happy with Tav dating Halsin. I glean this from how he responds to being poly with ANY OTHER companion. If you ask him to share with literally anyone else, he will say no and give his reason.

Gale: He doesn’t want to be in a love triangle (which with Gale, it would be).

Lae’zel: He’s uncomfortable and Lae’zel would kill him (also true).

Wyll: He knows Wyll is old fashioned and monogamous.

Karlach: He knows Karlach’s feelings for you are strong and he doesn’t want to stand in the way of that (he even says he’d be cool with an arrangement but knows Karlach will need all of your affection based on what she’s been through).

Shadowheart: He would be cool IF Shadowheart had more experience and ya’ll were together longer. But he knows Shadowheart is fragile in her current state.

Minthara: He REALLY doesn’t like this idea and will dump you immediately.

I did also see that ***SPOILER*** they updated or are updating some of the spawn Astarion language to have issues with your affair with Mizora should you pursue it, and it requires a persuasion/deception role to keep you two together.

Up to this point in your relationship with Astarion, he has become more comfortable voicing his opinions and concerns with you. He is learning to value his autonomy and his non-physical relationships. He will tell you when he doesn’t want to do something. In fact, he’ll break up with you over pushing his boundaries. He is fine with you pursuing the Drow twins and fine with you sleeping with Haarlep, even comforts you when Haarlep uses your form. So when he says he is okay with you pursuing Halsin, he means it. Yes, he voices his insecurity with you that you may be pursuing Halsin because you and he haven’t had sex in a while. But he acknowledges that Halsin has experience in this arrangement and doesn’t pose a threat to your relationship. Plus, if you kiss Halsin in front of him, he’ll say “don’t mind me, I’m just enjoying the show.”

To me, the idea that this is the ONE thing that Astarion doesn't have agency over in an arc of showing he can speak up for himself is you sleeping with Halsin is an idea that takes more agency from Astarion. He is a grown man. A 240 YEAR OLD man. That trauma he's endured does not mean he needs to be babied or coddled because he can't make his own choices. I think that's an unfair assumption to put on him that Halsin and Tav being together is the ONLY thing he can't enforce his boundaries on.

If he didn't want you to be with Halsin, he would say no like every other monogamous character in the game.

If you want a good example of someone saying yes just because they want to keep you, look at Karlach. You can tell she is HEARTBROKEN when you ask her, but she says “I don’t want to lose you”. That is not an enthusiastic participant in a polyamorous relationship. Astarion says “yeah, go for it! Just give me some reassurance”. Polyamory is not immune to insecurity. I've asked for reassurance in my own relationships and so has my primary partner. That’s not unenthusiastic. That’s realistic as shit. If you ask him about the relationship after you finish his questline, he doesn’t need reassurance because you’re having sex again. That’s also super realistic.

Am I sensitive to this as someone who practices ENM? Almost certainly. It's hard to see a lifestyle I live be villainized and claimed to be "forced" onto characters. I was actually really excited that I could pursue both Astarion and Halsin, and that Halsin places so much importance on consent and not misleading your partner. And it sucks SOO much to see one of my favorite characters be reduced to "oh, he's only doing it because he's afraid to lose Tav." It makes me almost feel bad for liking the interactions between them and enjoying to option. Do I think people mean to make me or other poly people feel bad? No.

But it does.

Headcanons are headcanons. I get it. People are absolutely allowed to interpret the poly aspect of BG3 how they want to. People are allowed to feel uncomfy with how it's portrayed and not pursue it. But it still bums a queer ENM Astarion and Halsin lover out.

Now excuse me whilst I live out my Astarion x Halsin x Tav polycule fantasies in the form of fanfiction.

[feeldco]

[gayvampyr]

you can be polyam and cheat and those two things are neither mutually exclusive nor prerequisites of the other. cheating isn’t defined as breaking the rules of monogamy, but rather breaking the trust of your partner(s) and relationship. polyamory involves open communication. very annoying to see people conflate the two

[gigglingauspice]

was having a conversation with a friend about what a “normal” amount of partners to have is. This is about any kind of committed partner— not just romantic or queer platonic, but sexual, alterous, wavership, and “undefined but my partner regardless.”

If you have more than nine partners, good god do I respect your time management.

[bitricky]

there are bi people who are polyamorous and bi people who are monogamous, just as there are for every other sexual orientation. making assumptions that all bi people are polyamorous is wrong, but judging ones who are for being polyamorous is just as wrong. it's a personal matter, and it isn't your business whether someone you aren't dating is monogamous or polyamorous.

bi people's sex and dating lives in general aren't your business. leave us alone.

[one-time-i-dreamt]

An extended family member of mine was crushing on and proceeded to be in an active monogamous relationship with Vaas Montenegro from Far Cry 3. She was very happy in it and I was supportive.

[thatbadadvice]

Help! I Am Entitled To Do A Bone!

The Ethicist, New York Times, 14 October 2023:

My wife became pregnant soon after we met, when our relationship was “fluid” and non-monogamous. We agreed to raise the child together and, at my urging, to have an open relationship. However, our relationship since has been monogamous. My wife was injured during the birth of our second child and now finds sex painful and avoids it. (We had a terrific sex life before the injury.) When I broached the topic of having other partners and reminded her of our agreement to have an open relationship, she became irritated and said that having kids changed things. Subsequent discussions resulted in a stalemate. I very much enjoy my wife’s company and love her and our two kids. I have no intention of separating from my family. Nonetheless, I harbor resentments that my wife reneged on her commitment to me, and this, together with the lack of sex, is creating a wedge between us. Would it be ethical to take a mistress, given her earlier promise, and if so, can I do this discreetly so as to avoid tension and perhaps divorce? Or should I tell her I am planning to pursue this course of action? Or does the inherent risk of infidelity mean I should accept near-celibacy indefinitely? — Name Withheld

Dear Name Withheld,

The restraint with which you signed yourself "name withheld" rather than the more accurate "big fun deep-dicking from which I have been blocked by my hateful bitch wife" is admirable in the extreme. You are a credit to your gender, sir.

But on to the matter at hand, specifically, your hand, to which you have been relegated in lieu of the aforementioned big fun deep-dicking. Your wife waited to drop the vicious bomb of possession upon you until she had roped you, an unwitting fancy-free man of leisure (entitled to all the benefits thereof indefinitely and in perpetuity), into marriage and fatherhood of not one but two children — children you could have in no way have known would result from your consistently and entirely monogamous coupling over many years, and moreover, could never have expected would complicate the terms of the thing y'all talked about one time about boning other randos?? And now this self-interested harpy dares to refuse to you the clear promise of sex with absolutely anyone other than her at any time ever, which she made and guaranteed in surety after you'd been fucking for a minute? A promise you had in theory enjoyed by writ and at length in your mind based on a conversation y'all had years ago before the entire terms and nature of your relationship changed in deep and meaningful ways to literally the one other person involved in said relationship, to wit, the worst person?

A bait-and-switch of the kind your cruel and fickle wife has pulled on you cannot, should not, be tolerated. Are you — is any man, really — obligated to just not fuck his wife in addition to whoever else he wants to fuck ever? Just because she "finds sex painful"? Sex isn't painful for you, and doesn't that matter just a little bit more? Isn't it her job to have kind of a bad time so that you can have a good time? Isn't that what it is to be a woman and a mother? And she just casually eschews her duty to put up with whatever the fuck you propose? Because WHY? Because "having kids changes things"? I ask you: changes things for who? For the person who carried children in her body and experienced deep and lasting personal and physical injury? Or for you, the person who matters most?

It seems your wife has an unfortunately topsy-turvy view of partnership, one in which she believes two individuals are allowed to dictate the terms of a relationship that may change over time due to a variety of mitigating factors that one or both of you may or may not have control over. Would that she realized that her sexual needs are not merely incidental to yours, but actively irrelevant. If only she would simply give you that one, small thing (in addition to two children).

But alas, she seems sadly fixated on her own needs to the exclusion of the fact that you would like to do a bone upon her or frankly anyone, you are not picky, as long as she doesn't leave you or take your children away or do anything really to upset the world as you would like it to be, which is a classically controlling woman-type thing that women do because they are so self-involved.

Obviously you're really grappling with the profound ethical implications of lying to your wife about taking a mistress, and you're trying to find literally any other solution to just finding a girlfriend and fucking the shit out of her and hoping your wife doesn't find out. That's clearly the very last thing you want. But since you've shown such magnanimous restraint in not doing so, you probably should just do it and see what happens, it'll probably all be totally fine! And if it isn't, eh, idk? Were you supposed to just survive on beejays and handies forever? You tried your very best not to! And that's what will matter most to your children in the end.

[autism-industrial-complex]

Polyamory is that warm fuzzy feeling in your heart spilling out every time you look at your partners and their smiles.

Polyamory is telling multiple people, “I love you and I want the best for you.”

Polyamory is constantly revisiting and reflecting on your boundaries.

Polyamory is regularly checking in with your partners to make sure that their boundaries are being respected and their needs are being met.

Polyamory is knowing how to be comfortable alone. Knowing how to recharge yourself, how to let your partners live their lives without invading their spaces.

Polyamory is a lot of hard work. Sometimes you have to fight your own biases. Sometimes the rules and boundaries of the relationship feel too rigid, sometimes they feel too loose. You have to familiarize yourself with not just your partner’s schedule, but have a general understanding of your metamours’ as well.

Polyamory is patience, patience with yourself, patience with your partners, and patience with the learning curve. There will always be more to learn; how to be a better listener, how to recognize unfair treatment or relationship trends, how to give and receive affection in meaningful ways.

Polyamory is difficult. Polyamory is rewarding.

Polyamory is not a replacement for monogamy. Polyamory is not inherently better or worse than monogamy.

Being a good partner is independent of how many partners you have. Being aware of how partners should treat you is independent of how many partners you have.

Having a healthy, fulfilling relationship is for everyone.

[submissivefeminist]

If your partner is insisting that this is how polyamory is done, I'm gonna insist you find a better partner. The One Penis Policy is misogynistic, transphobic, and fetishizing in all the worst ways. ⛔🍆

[joy-haver]

Throw back Thursday to this chart I made for whether I should date someone or not.

It also works for other types of relationships, but I find that I need to remind myself of it more with romantic relationships so I framed it around that.

[alexcabotgifs]

3x11 Monogamy

[jeunefillerangee]

My biggest beef with polyamory is when people try to pass it as being anti-patriarchal. The argument is that monogamy was only expected from women until very recently, which of course is true. But why the solution for it should be giving women the same sexual privileges men had and still have? When we talk about men not respecting monogamy, especially in previous generations, we are not talking about sexual freedom. We are talking mainly about abuse and prostitution. Most women don't find it difficult to be monogamous, their problem is being partnered with men who don't love or respect them enough to be faithful. The anti-patriarchal solution is make men respect monogamy the same way women do.

[polyamorousmood]

Fuck it

Its not just Scooby Doo. Anything with an ensemble cast or a team working toward a common goal is poly now. Lost? Parks and Rec? They're polyam. Your sports anime? Your favorite heist movie? Its poly too. IDGAF. Y'all just try to stop me

[alpaca-clouds]

Why human culture became monogamous

Let me talk about one thing: The reason for the prevailance of monogamy these days. Because I think a lot of people are not quite aware of this.

If you are monogamous, this is not a slight against you - it is simply about the history of it.

Because here is the thing: Homo Sapiens as a species is not monogamous. And all that we can say about our biology so far is, that we are not even a seasonally monogamous species.

To explain: There are species, that are monogamous, or seasonally monogamous. In a monogamous species, animals mate for life. And once they have mated, they will not be interested in any other animal anymore. We actually see this behavior most often in different birds, like some swans and penguins.

There are also species, who are seasonally monogamous. Again, this is mostly seen in birds. Seasonally monogamous species mate once per mating circle and then again do not experience any interest in potential other partners.

The reason that this is mostly seen in birds is probably an evolutionary adaption based on the fact that with birds at least one partner needs to keep the eggs warm, so that the other partner needs to bring in food to the nest.

Homo Sapiens meanwhile are not that. Homo Sapiens do experience attraction to people other than their current partner. And in fact there is a lot of biological evidence, that biologically speaking we have evolved to live in groups and within these groups just fuck whoever.

Biologists have pointed out that the fact that our bodies produce oxytocine in response to sex, which builds trust and produces generally positive feelings towards others. This does seem like an evolutionary adaption to produce closer knit groups.

We can say this, because we can see the same in bonobos - one of our closest relatives in the animal kingdom.

Biologists also assume, that our moaning during sex is actually an adaption to invite others to join us.

And of course we do just know that we will just randomly fall in love and feel attracted to other people independent of our romantic status right now.

So, why is our society geared towards monogamy?

The answer is simply: Patriarchy.

See, monogamy is mostly a result of the patriarchy. Which is also why monogamy mostly sprang up in patriarchal cultures, while not being that prevalent in matriarchal or more egalitarian cultures.

Patriarchy only emerged once we settled down and started owning land. Why exactly it sprang up, we do not really know, but we do know that it ran into one problem: It relied on the patrilinear succession and inheritance. And that is a bit more complicated than matrilinear succession, right?

Because a woman will always know who her children are. It is quite easy to know, given that the woman is the one pressing the child out of her uterus.

A man meanwhile? Well, he cannot know who his children are in a world before paternity tests. At least not unless he makes sure that the woman birthing the child has slept with nobody but him. And hence: Monogamy. At least enforced monogamy for women.

This is also what led to all those other ways of men controlling women. Controlling how they dress and shaming them for whatever thing they might do, that men find attractive. Because it all has to do with this patriarchal fear of not knowing whether a child is yours or not.

Of course it has to be noted that originally this only led to polygyny. So a man, who would take several wives, but control the wives so that they would not sleep with another men. But we do assume these days, that the reason it led to monogamy was, that polygyny made the societies too instable, because it would naturally mean, that some men would not have any women and that was not good.

Hence... Monogamy was what people started to settle on more and more. Including this idea that men somehow owned women.

If you feel more comfortable with monogamy... Sure, fine. Good for you. But I think we really should speak more openly about the fact, that monogamy is something that is based completely in the patriarchy and in the end mostly exists to suppress women. For no other reason.

[gigglingauspice]

Been seeing some interesting answers on this poll... so, once again-- This is about any kind of committed partner— not just romantic or queer platonic, but sexual, alterous, wavership, and “undefined but my partner regardless." Any kind of serious, long term partner.

if you want nine or more partners-- good lord. good luck, and godspeed. if you want no partners, i wish you a very pleasant 'everyone leaves you alone about it'