#on the Sufficient Velocity forums

[ouroborosorder]

i don't know how to explain it but sometimes you can just talk to someone and immediately Know that this person is a die-hard LANCER fanatic

[justmeinabigolworld]

Potential Precure Quest

Hey guys! So you know how I’ve been getting into quests lately? Well, I’ve done some searching, and there aren’t very many Precure quests on Sufficient Velocity. Not nearly enough, in my opinion.

Besides, I’ve been wanting to make a Precure quest anyway. Here’s my idea:

It takes place in the Happiness Charge continuity (because of the international Cures and fun worldbuilding ideas), though I’ve added some worldbuilding of my own creation to help things make more sense, and to shed some light on things that went untold in the actual season.

You are a newly scouted Precure, having just found one of Blue’s crystals. Your name, your age, your Cure name, what city you’re located in…all that is determined by voting. Like my Pokémon quest, I’d do that voting system where there’s a write-in vote, and then I pick the best write-ins, and then there’s a final vote where the write-ins are the choices.

Will you find teammates, or go it alone? Will you gather enough cards to make a wish? If so, what will you wish for? Will you ever make progress against the seemingly-infinite Mirage Empire, or will you be defeated and placed in a mirror by Phantom, the Precure Hunter? And will you ever learn why all this is truly happening?

Well, that’s up to you. And by you, I mean the voting system I specified.

Would anyone be interested in a quest like this? I’m already doing my Pokémon quest, and it’s only been up since Tuesday, so I shouldn’t start a new one just yet. Still, I may do so in the future, so for now, I’m doing a little interest check.

[lisafication]

"if I thought AO3 was The Best Way To Do Things I would be volunteering for the OTW, rather than an administrator on Sufficient Velocity" You don't see any value in the existence of orgs that exist to serve a specific Purpose, even if you don't hang out there? I don't use AO3 much but I'm glad it exists, in the same way that I'm glad the ACLU exists even if I don't think they're always in the right, because it's socially useful to have an org whose Purpose to argue Max Free Speech, All The Time.

Sure, though I don't view it in the same manner as you've described here, as I said I don't really fall on the side of 'then let the Archive be destroyed', I just think it's an ideologically consistent position to hold with some valid points. I don't, however, personally prefer posting content on there as opposed to other venues — I prefer formats and hosts that support discussion better.

[greatwyrmgold]

Right after I write a fanfic, I'm excited for any engagement. Wow! People are reading the things I wrote and like them!

Years later, when my skills have improved and I get out of the headspace I was in when I wrote it, I start to cringe. Why are people reading that bad old fanfiction instead of my new stuff? How can they enjoy it? Good for them, I guess.

At some point, even that attitude fades, in favor of "Okay, how the heck are new people still discovering these fics?"

[notyetunreal]

"Take to the tunnels when the stars fall upon you..."

That's how the hymnal begins.. and so it came to pass. No matter the direction you turn a hunch backs it: You could walk infinitely in that tunnel, couldn't you? How long does a pilgrimage in refuge last if there is no destination to be had?

this is one of the starting memories in my sufficient velocity quest (a type of interactive fiction, you decide what the pov character does next!) aptly titled Questant, and it's set within my original dreamcore-inspired setting

like the others it's kept in an enchanted scrapbook, and may be chosen as a core memory of the protagonist to keep their companion beast safe within, and later form an Inner World to take refuge in

[systlin]

Oh my god, *please* live-blog/tell us what you’re thinking of worm as you read it, your opinion of almost everything changes so so much as you go through it.

Also, the one weird thing about worm is that, yes there’s plenty of fic on a03, but almost all of it started on, and a lot of never left, on space battles and sufficient velocity- forum sites. I have absolutely no idea why, but that’s just how it is. Also the writer ran a quest that got made canonical and it’s *weird*

So far I know that I would be weaving spidersilk FASHION BABY rather than worrying about bullies, but then she IS like 15.

Dubious that black widows have the best quality silk for weaving. I would be looking for orb weavers myself.

[booksandchainmail]

@the-yuri-librarian

Will someone please tell me if any of these series have lesbians

(in regards to this post)

Of the two web serials featured in that meme:

Pale Lights, by erraticerrata one of its 2-4 protagonists is a lesbian. There hasn't been much in the way of romance for her yet, but the series is pretty early on, and also romance-light. One of the other female protagonists is possibly bisexual, and the male protagonist is ace. Pale Lights is about new recruits to an elite god-hunting organization in a gunpowder-and-sail era world that is also entirely within a massive cavern full of strangeness. Ongoing

Twig, by wildbow umm. ok. so how do I put this. It has ambiguously bisexual girls in an situationship? It got a lot of submissions to a yuribait poll tournament. Also in the main cast is a trans girl. I cannot in good consciousness recommend this on the basis of lesbianism, but I do like it. Twig is about a group of child lab experiments/field agents of a biopunk empire. Complete

Other web serials that may be of interest to you!

A Practical Guide to Evil, by erraticerrata Protagonist is a bisexual woman, and almost all of her romantic interests are other women. PGTE has my favorite slowburn romance of all time. Also in the main cast are (at least) two more bi women, and an aroace man (there are more queer characters depending on how you define main cast). In a medieval fantasy world where narrative tropes have metaphysical weight, a new group of villains begin fighting smarter to overcome their narrative disadvantage. Forty years later, a teenage girl from a conquered country, seeing how heroes have failed, chooses to become the Squire of the empire's Black Knight. Tagline: Do Wrong Right Complete

Katalepsis, by HY Lesbian protagonist, largely lesbian supporting cast, including a couple trans women. Lots of romance, including an expanding polycule. A young woman tries to rescue her twin sister, who was erased from reality as a child by an eldritch entity. Tagline: A web serial of cosmic horror, urban fantasy, and making friends with strange people Ongoing, almost finished (with the first "book"/major overarching plotline)

Necroepilogos, by HY I think literally the entire cast of this one is queer women (including at least one trans woman) having homoerotic moments with each other all the time. A bioengineered supersoldier wakes millennia after her death to find the world a wasteland, populated by women resurrected from across history who must now kill each other to live. Tagline: Lost girls in the ashen afterword Ongoing

PGTE/Pale Lights and Katalepsis/Necroepilogos would be my primary recommendations. Some other webserials:

Some of wildbow's other serials have more lesbians than Twig, but it comes with caveats: Worm (and its sequel Ward) are, uh, controversial for how they handle lesbians. Pale is much better, but I'm also only 1/3 of the way through so I can't vouch for it entirely. Pact has a single important lesbian character.

I lost interest and didn't finish Heretical Edge, but it does have a poly lesbian protagonist.

Time to Orbit: Unknown is not particularly lesbian in specific, but it is largely queer and genderqueer.

Another option of thing I read is quests and original/fan fiction on the forum site Sufficient Velocity. The downside here is that they mostly have really irregular update schedules (unlike the above serials, which update 1-2 times a week on a fixed day) and are prone to being abandoned. I'd recommend looking at how often/recently thy update before starting. With that caveat, some titles with lesbian (or bisexual) females leads and queer romance: Petals of Titanium, The Last Daughter, Lieutenant Fusilier in the Farthest Reaches, Castles of Steel, On the Road to Elspar, Mercy (and Other Costly Mistakes), Pound the Table, and A Little Vice

[raitala]

So, I'm seeing this sort of thing going around and it's pretty frustrating.

1. #EndOTWRacism is *not* calling for full content moderation. It is calling for AO3 to follow through on their promise to hire professional advice and seriously invest in making the archive safer for poc members.

2. *its too difficult*, *people are shitty*, *it will never be perfect*, *its unrealistic*

These kinds of 'reasonable' objections have always been raised as road blocks to change. Women entering education, self-determination for occupied nations, you name it. 'We'd like to do it, but it'll just *never work*. So many problems! *sigh* you'll just have to lump it'.

Don't get me started on making public buildings accessible to wheelchair users. Impossible! Think of all the building modifications! The money! But, you know what, the 2010 Equality Act has made a huge difference. Is it perfect? No! Is it better than it was? Yes.

Yup, people are shitty. AO3 will never be magically purified of all hate. But positive systemic change is possible if create an expectation for change. And it will only happen if we keep raising our voices.

I don't care if it's 'unrealistic' to tackle racism on AO3. I still think we should at least fucking *try*.

[zuko-always-lies]

Figured I'd recommend this, given how much fun I've been having with it: Arsonist's Lullaby, by Magery on Sufficient Velocity. A story/forum quest following Azula living the same nine days from Sozin's Comet over and over and over again, to whenever or wherever her eventual defeat takes place, and then right back to Mai's "I love Zuko more than I fear you". After repeated failures to escape, Azula begins trying new tactics that find her confronting her own various truths of herself and the world

I suppose I should probably check it out, even though I'm not very drawn to quests. Sufficient Velocity is a quite a place.

[yuesya]

I’m loving zenith right now, it’s so hard to find jjk fics that aren’t totally focused on romance. And the action and Shiki’s character development are just amazing.

Anyway I have two questions if you don’t mind me asking. What rank would Shiki be right now? Semi grade 1 or just grade two? Maybe grade one? Strength wise.

Also do you ever plan on posting your story on the SpaceBattle forum? Or maybe on Sufficient velocity. The people there are not that bad and I guarantee that a lot of people there would enjoy your story.

Thanks! Glad you're enjoying zenith of stars, anon. :D

As of chapter 39 (update 41), I would put Shiki somewhere between Semi Grade One and Grade One in terms of strength. Officially, she's still unranked at the moment.

I remember looking into SpaceBattle a little bit awhile back, but things became rather busy for me in RL so that fell to the wayside. I am considering posting on SpaceBattle! As well as looking into potentially making a Discord server, although I'm not too familiar with how things work on that end.

[elizatronicwarfare]

How The Sausage Is Made:

An Explainer For New Readers

At first glance, Forge Of Destiny looks like a regular novella series on Amazon with a new installment every 6-12 months, but underneath the surface is an audience-participation choose-your-own-adventure releasing 3 new chapters a week - if you wish, you can join the rest of the audience in voting on Ling Qi's actions.

The big picture is Destiny Cycle: the collective term for the books you are reading, including Forge Of Destiny, Threads Of Destiny, and any future installments. All three volumes of Forge and the first two volumes of Threads are available as of this writing. There's audiobook versions available as well.

Royal Road The books on Amazon are first published chapter-by-chapter on Royal Road, a website that hosts writing by independent authors. All chapters here are free to read, and no account is required. Royal Road's most recent chapter is always ahead of the bound volumes on Amazon, as it takes time for them to be collected and edited together into books by volunteers.

https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/21188/forge-of-destiny

Sufficient Velocity Each Royal Road chapter is itself first released on Sufficient Velocity, a web forum designed for roleplaying text adventure games - and this is because Destiny Cycle is actually played as a turn-based roleplaying text adventure, where the audience votes every few days on Ling Qi's major decisions. Ling Qi has stats, equipment, and even makes dice rolls to determine uncertain outcomes. If you are familliar with the term, Destiny Cycle is a quest thread.

Sufficient Velocity's most recent chapter is always ahead of Royal Road, as it takes time for each one to be proofread, edited, and brought up to RR's standards. If you want to read the story as it is being written, and help shape it, then this is the place to read along. All chapters here are free to read, but voting requires an account.

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/threads-of-destiny-eastern-fantasy-sequel-to-forge-of-destiny.51431/

Omakes Fans can also submit writing or art (called "omake") that take place in Destiny Cycle to the Sufficient Velocity thread. If Yrs likes it, he'll add it to the "Apocrypha" list of worthy fanwork. If he really likes it, it'll be added to "Sidestories" instead and become part of the Destiny Cycle canon until further notice. Readers are awarded points for either of these two merits, which can be spent on improving the odds of Ling Qi's dicerolls.

The Discord This is the "official" centralised discussion space for all forms of Destiny Cycle, including spoiler-free channels for those keeping pace with Royal Road. Fans catching up to the most recent chapters are still encouraged to join - everyone loves to see the reactions of someone reading Destiny Cycle for the first time.

https://discord.com/invite/bc8bKZM

The Wiki This is the up-to-date repository of lore and character information for the series, such as character portraits, cultivation spreadsheets, and maps.

https://forgeofdestiny.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page

Commissions Yrsillar also does writing on a commission basis, with prices currently ranging from USD$55 to $80 depending on the piece. Most fans commission small Destiny Cycle stories that get added to the "Sidestories" collection on Sufficient Velocity. As of this writing, the queue is over a year long (he's very popular with fans) and listed on the discord.

Patreon Readers can support Yrsillar with monthly money via Patreon, gaining a special discord role and early access to both commissions and Royal Road chapters.

[weaselandfriends]

I asked you this a while ago (as anonymouscardboard which I am no longer using since I got tired of switching accounts) but are you going to put When I Win on Sufficient Velocity and Spacebattles? Please do because there's already a lot of cool Pokemon stories on there and I want even more people to see WIW. It will be awesome.

Nice to see you again Anonymouscardboard, I really appreciated all the cool fan art you did. (Also that fanfic of Somebody's Little Sister, though it seems like it got taken down, or at least the link I had to it broke.)

As for your question, I was in fact planning to put it on Spacebattles. I'm not very familiar with Sufficient Velocity, but crossposting is easy, so I could easily put it there too. I would prefer to post on a wide variety of places, so more people can see and discuss.

The idea of posting on a more traditional forums like SB and SV appeals for another reason. Today I received a reblog on a post about Cleveland Quixotic from @itsthisornothing that had these tags:

Probably about half the total discussion of my works, if not more, occurs on places like the Homestuck discord or Alexander Wales' Worth the Candle discord that talks about a lot of webfic. It'd be cool to have more discussion out there that people could search for and read if they have an interest in the material.

So yeah, I'm going to try and put it everywhere I can. Right now that list is: AO3, RoyalRoad, ff.net (if the site is even still up next week...), Spacebattles, Sufficient Velocity.

[justmeinabigolworld]

I've decided to store the story parts of my Soranort quest on Ao3, so people can just read the story without having to go through all the voting/discussion posts.

Here it is!

All five posts are up there, and whenever I make a new story post, I'll put it on Ao3 after I post it to SV :)

[lisafication]

For those who might happen across this, I'm an administrator for the forum 'Sufficient Velocity', a large old-school forum oriented around Creative Writing. I originally posted this on there (and any reference to 'here' will mean the forum), but I felt I might as well throw it up here, as well, even if I don't actually have any followers.

This week, I've been reading fanfiction on Archive of Our Own (AO3), a site run by the Organisation for Transformative Works (OTW), a non-profit. This isn't particularly exceptional, in and of itself — like many others on the site, I read a lot of fanfiction, both on Sufficient Velocity (SV) and elsewhere — however what was bizarre to me was encountering a new prefix on certain works, that of 'End OTW Racism'. While I'm sure a number of people were already familiar with this, I was not, so I looked into it.

What I found... wasn't great. And I don't think anyone involved realises that.

To summarise the details, the #EndOTWRacism campaign, of which you may find their manifesto here, is a campaign oriented towards seeing hateful or discriminatory works removed from AO3 — and believe me, there is a lot of it. To whit, they want the OTW to moderate them. A laudable goal, on the face of it — certainly, we do something similar on Sufficient Velocity with Rule 2 and, to be clear, nothing I say here is a critique of Rule 2 (or, indeed, Rule 6) on SV.

But it's not that simple, not when you're the size of Archive of Our Own. So, let's talk about the vagaries and little-known pitfalls of content moderation, particularly as it applies to digital fiction and at scale. Let's dig into some of the details — as far as credentials go, I have, unfortunately, been in moderation and/or administration on SV for about six years and this is something we have to grapple with regularly, so I would like to say I can speak with some degree of expertise on the subject.

So, what are the problems with moderating bad works from a site? Let's start with discovery— that is to say, how you find rule-breaching works in the first place. There are more-or-less two different ways to approach manual content moderation of open submissions on a digital platform: review-based and report-based (you could also call them curation-based and flag-based), with various combinations of the two. Automated content moderation isn't something I'm going to cover here — I feel I can safely assume I'm preaching to the choir when I say it's a bad idea, and if I'm not, I'll just note that the least absurd outcome we had when simulating AI moderation (mostly for the sake of an academic exercise) on SV was banning all the staff.

In a review-based system, you check someone's work and approve it to the site upon verifying that it doesn't breach your content rules. Generally pretty simple, we used to do something like it on request. Unfortunately, if you do that, it can void your safe harbour protections in the US per Myeress vs. Buzzfeed Inc. This case, if you weren't aware, is why we stopped offering content review on SV. Suffice to say, it's not really a realistic option for anyone large enough for the courts to notice, and extremely clunky and unpleasant for the users, to boot.

Report-based systems, on the other hand, are something we use today — users find works they think are in breach and alert the moderation team to their presence with a report. On SV, this works pretty well — a user or users flag a work as potentially troublesome, moderation investigate it and either action it or reject the report. Unfortunately, AO3 is not SV. I'll get into the details of that dreadful beast known as scaling later, but thankfully we do have a much better comparison point — fanfiction.net (FFN).

FFN has had two great purges over the years, with a... mixed amount of content moderation applied in between: one in 2002 when the NC-17 rating was removed, and one in 2012. Both, ostensibly, were targeted at adult content. In practice, many fics that wouldn't raise an eye on Spacebattles today or Sufficient Velocity prior to 2018 were also removed; a number of reports suggest that something as simple as having a swearword in your title or summary was enough to get you hit, even if you were a 'T' rated work. Most disturbingly of all, there are a number of — impossible to substantiate — accounts of groups such as the infamous Critics United 'mass reporting' works to trigger a strike to get them removed. I would suggest reading further on places like Fanlore if you are unfamiliar and want to know more.

Despite its flaws however, report-based moderation is more-or-less the only option, and this segues neatly into the next piece of the puzzle that is content moderation, that is to say, the rubric. How do you decide what is, and what isn't against the rules of your site?

Anyone who's complained to the staff about how vague the rules are on SV may have had this explained to them, but as that is likely not many of you, I'll summarise: the more precise and clear-cut your chosen rubric is, the more it will inevitably need to resemble a legal document — and the less readable it is to the layman. We'll return to SV for an example here: many newer users will not be aware of this, but SV used to have a much more 'line by line, clearly delineated' set of rules and... people kind of hated it! An infraction would reference 'Community Compact III.15.5' rather than Rule 3, because it was more or less written in the same manner as the Terms of Service (sans the legal terms of art). While it was a more legible rubric from a certain perspective, from the perspective of communicating expectations to the users it was inferior to our current set of rules  — even less of them read it,  and we don't have great uptake right now.

And it still wasn't really an improvement over our current set-up when it comes to 'moderation consistency'. Even without getting into the nuts and bolts of "how do you define a racist work in a way that does not, at any point, say words to the effect of 'I know it when I see it'" — which is itself very, very difficult don't get me wrong I'm not dismissing this — you are stuck with finding an appropriate footing between a spectrum of 'the US penal code' and 'don't be a dick' as your rubric. Going for the penal code side doesn't help nearly as much as you might expect with moderation consistency, either — no matter what, you will never have a 100% correct call rate. You have the impossible task of writing a rubric that is easy for users to comprehend, extremely clear for moderation and capable of cleanly defining what is and what isn't racist without relying on moderator judgement, something which you cannot trust when operating at scale.

Speaking of scale, it's time to move on to the third prong — and the last covered in this ramble, which is more of a brief overview than anything truly in-depth — which is resources. Moderation is not a magic wand, you can't conjure it out of nowhere: you need to spend an enormous amount of time, effort and money on building, training and equipping a moderation staff, even a volunteer one, and it is far, far from an instant process. Our most recent tranche of moderators spent several months in training and it will likely be some months more before they're fully comfortable in the role — and that's with a relatively robust bureaucracy and a number of highly experienced mentors supporting them, something that is not going to be available to a new moderation branch with little to no experience. Beyond that, there's the matter of sheer numbers.

Combining both moderation and arbitration — because for volunteer staff, pure moderation is in actuality less efficient in my eyes, for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this post, but we'll treat it as if they're both just 'moderators' — SV presently has 34 dedicated moderation volunteers. SV hosts ~785 million words of creative writing.

AO3 hosts ~32 billion.

These are some very rough and simplified figures, but if you completely ignore all the usual problems of scaling manpower in a business (or pseudo-business), such as (but not limited to) geometrically increasing bureaucratic complexity and administrative burden, along with all the particular issues of volunteer moderation... AO3 would still need well over one thousand volunteer moderators to be able to match SV's moderator-to-creative-wordcount ratio.

Paid moderation, of course, you can get away with less — my estimate is that you could fully moderate SV with, at best, ~8 full-time moderators, still ignoring administrative burden above the level of team leader. This leaves AO3 only needing a much more modest ~350 moderators. At the US minimum wage of ~$15k p.a. — which is, in my eyes, deeply unethical to pay moderators as full-time moderation is an intensely gruelling role with extremely high rates of PTSD and other stress-related conditions — that is approximately ~$5.25m p.a. costs on moderator wages. Their average annual budget is a bit over $500k.

So, that's obviously not on the table, and we return to volunteer staffing. Which... let's examine that scenario and the questions it leaves us with, as our conclusion.

Let's say, through some miracle, AO3 succeeds in finding those hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of volunteer moderators. We'll even say none of them are malicious actors or sufficiently incompetent as to be indistinguishable, and that they manage to replicate something on the level of or superior to our moderation tooling near-instantly at no cost. We still have several questions to be answered:

How are you maintaining consistency? Have you managed to define racism to the point that moderator judgment no longer enters the equation? And to be clear, you cannot allow moderator judgment to be a significant decision maker at this scale, or you will end with absurd results.

How are you handling staff mental health? Some reading on the matter, to save me a lengthy and unrelated explanation of some of the steps involved in ensuring mental health for commercial-scale content moderators.

How are you handling your failures? No moderation in the world has ever succeeded in a 100% accuracy rate, what are you doing about that?

Using report-based discovery, how are you preventing 'report brigading', such as the theories surrounding Critics United mentioned above? It is a natural human response to take into account the amount and severity of feedback. While SV moderators are well trained on the matter, the rare times something is receiving enough reports to potentially be classified as a 'brigade' on that scale will nearly always be escalated to administration, something completely infeasible at (you're learning to hate this word, I'm sure) scale.

How are you communicating expectations to your user base? If you're relying on a flag-based system, your users' understanding of the rules is a critical facet of your moderation system — how have you managed to make them legible to a layman while still managing to somehow 'truly' define racism?

How are you managing over one thousand moderators? Like even beyond all the concerns with consistency, how are you keeping track of that many moving parts as a volunteer organisation without dozens or even hundreds of professional managers? I've ignored the scaling administrative burden up until now, but it has to be addressed in reality.

What are you doing to sweep through your archives? SV is more-or-less on-top of 'old' works as far as rule-breaking goes, with the occasional forgotten tidbit popping up every 18 months or so — and that's what we're extrapolating from. These thousand-plus moderators are mostly going to be addressing current or near-current content, are you going to spin up that many again to comb through the 32 billion words already posted?

I could go on for a fair bit here, but this has already stretched out to over two thousand words.

I think the people behind this movement have their hearts in the right place and the sentiment is laudable, but in practice it is simply 'won't someone think of the children' in a funny hat. It cannot be done.

Even if you could somehow meet the bare minimum thresholds, you are simply not going to manage a ruleset of sufficient clarity so as to prevent a much-worse repeat of the 2012 FF.net massacre, you are not going to be able to manage a moderation staff of that size and you are not going to be able to ensure a coherent understanding among all your users (we haven't managed that after nearly ten years and a much smaller and more engaged userbase). There's a serious number of other issues I haven't covered here as well, as this really is just an attempt at giving some insight into the sheer number of moving parts behind content moderation:  the movement wants off-site content to be policed which isn't so much its own barrel of fish as it is its own barrel of Cthulhu; AO3 is far from English-only and would in actuality need moderators for almost every language it supports — and most damning of all,  if Section 230 is wiped out by the Supreme Court  it is not unlikely that engaging in content moderation at all could simply see AO3 shut down.

As sucky as it seems, the current status quo really is the best situation possible. Sorry about that.

[greatwyrmgold]

(Source)

[penultimate-step]

apparently this week is the sufficient velocity forum's 10th anniversary. Time sure flies, huh. I was already using SB when the forum was created, so I got to see it grow from early on, and still kind of think about it as the "new" forum.

The celebration thread is pretty interesting. The mods choose 10 threads that they felt were especially popular or influential from each year to look back on.

It's fun to see what was big at different times, and how the site content shifted over the years. Many of the threads are ones I recognized and read, several are those I had never heard of. I've been here a while, but I haven't been on there there whole time; my use of forums comes and goes. There were months where I used the site daily, there were months were I didn't check the site at all. So there's plenty of surprises and new recommendations that I can go back and check out later.