#osmanlihanedan14

[ottomanladies]

Thanks for the reply Could Hatice Sultan and Sehzade Sultan, the daughters of Salim I, be a single character? That is, the Sehzade was Hatice's second name Because their husbands are the same (coban mustafa pasa)

The thing is there is a lot of confusion surrounding Selim I's daughters. Most of it stems from the incorrect belief that Hatice was İbrâhîm Paşa's wife, but the identities of the princesses and their names are confusing as well. 

For example, Hatice is sometimes given a second name, Hanım, but Uluçay claims it's two different people altogether. Moreover, he says that Hanım could have been called Şehzade or Sultanzade as well.

I will try to untangle the mess but I'm not sure I will achieve this because I only rely on secondary sources. 

Peirce, Empress of the East

At least until 1555-1556, two princesses lived in the Old Palace: Şah and Şehzade. She identifies them as sisters of Süleyman and says that Şehzade was widowed and Şah was divorced (as we all know). Moreover, Şehzade had a daughter: she lived in the Old Palace as well and she's not identified by name but by her ties to the Dynasty, ie. her mother. In the same register, we also find out that Şah's mother was alive and living in the Old Palace as well, and therefore Şah could not be Hafsa Sultan's daughter.

Uluçay, Padişahların Kadınları ve Kızları

Hatice Sultan: "Perhaps she was İskender Paşa's wife. In 1524, she married Grand Vizier Makbul İbrahim Paşa."

Well, we know thanks to Ebru Turan that İbrahim Paşa never married Hatice Sultan; Venetian Ambassador Pietro Zen states quite clearly that his wife was a grand-daughter of İskender Paşa:

"The other real daughter of that İskender had two daughters with a sançak beǧ and one of them married before a çavuş başı of this sultan, and the other one is at the moment married to the aforementioned Magnificent İbrahim Paşa. At the beginning she did not want to take him as husband, saying that he was her slave, but she was persuaded to consent as she has done and condescend to the wish of the sultan who wished it that way."

Hanım Sultan: "In documents she is also referred to as Sultanzade and Şehzade Sultan. [...] She married the vizier Çoban Mustafa Paşa."

Hafsa Sultan: "Daughter of Yavuz Sultan Selim. She married İskender Bey (Paşa), who had been raised in the Palace. İskender Paşa, who was governor of Eğriboz and Gelibolu, became High Admiral and Vizier. He was executed in 1515. It seems that Hafsa Sultan did not re-marry after İskender Paşa's execution. Hafsa Sultan died in 1538."

Sakaoğlu, Bu Mülkün Kadın Sultanları

Hatice Sultan: "This daughter of Yavuz was married to Makbul/Maktul Frenk İbrahim Paşa (1493-1536), the famous Grand Vizier of Suleyman I."

He goes on saying that Uzunçarşılı was wrong in saying that İbrahim Paşa's wife was Muhsine Hatun because one of the letters he sent his wife begins with "My sultan"

Hanım Sultan: "Daughter of Yavuz Selim, wife of Çoban Mustafa Paşa who died in April 1529. [...] Uzunçarşılı states that İskender Paşa's wife name was (Hanım) Hatice Sultan. As I said above, this İskender Paşa married Hafsa Sultan. There is clearly a mistake. [...] In Sicill-i Osmani, it is written that İskender Paşa was governor of Bosnia twice during the reign of the Conqueror and died in 1506, the situation is even more confused when another İskender Paşa is mentioned. In the inscription of the mosque, which was completed five years after his death, it is shown that Hanım Sultan is Yavuz Sultan Selim's granddaughter. While the Sultan Mosque is mentioned in Hadikatü'l-cevami, again, Hanım Sultan is shown as the daughter of Hatice Sultan."

While he doesn't seem to believe that there were two İskender Paşa, I don't think it's that out of the world. It was a common name, after all, and he didn't seem to have had a family name, which would have simplified things. 

Hafise Sultan: "She was also called Hafsa. Her first husband was Grand Vizier Dukaginzade Ahmed Paşa, whom she married in 1511. Yavuz Sultan Selim executed his son-in-law on 14 March 1515 in Amasya; Selim himself brought the news to Hafise Sultan, who was waiting for her husband in Istanbul. Uluçay writes that the widowed Hafise Hatun married İskender Bey/Paşa, raised in the Palace, governor of Eğriboz and Gelibolu, who later served as vizier and High Admiral. Hafise Sultan, who was once again widowed when İskender Paşa was executed, married Boşnak Mustafa Paşa (d. 1529) in the first year of Suleyman's reign (1522) and gave birth to Sultanzade Osman. [...] Hafise Hatun was buried in the tomb of the princes in the Sultan Selim mosque."

Sakaoğlu doesn't mention a princess named Şehzade or Sultanzade.

Öztuna, Yavuz Sultan Selim

Hatice "Hanım" Sultan: "=1. Dâmâd İskender Paşa (died 18.8.1515), marriage 1509. [...] It is highly probable that this İskender Paşa was a sultan-zâde, the son of one of the daughters of Bâyezîd II, and the aunt of Hadîce Sultan. I cannot give a more complete genealogy for now. [...] He was executed in Amasya. =2. Dâmâd Makbûl Maktûl İbrâhîm Paşa (Parga, 25.4.1495 – strangled inside Topkapı Palace on the night of 15.3.1536)"

Hafsa (Hafisa) Sultan: "=1. Dâmâd Fülân Ağa, bostâncıbaşı, executed by Yavuz. =2. Dâmâd Gaazî Çoban Mustafa Paşa (executed 20.8.1523) b. İskender Paşa (ölm. 1506)"

Turan, The marriage of Ibrahim Pasha (ca. 1495-1536)

"In 1517 Mustafa Pasha married the widow of Bostancıbaşı Iskender Pasha, whom Selim had executed in 1515."

As you can see, it is all very confusing. To add to the already big confusion, there were two Mustafa Paşa in Selim I's times: 

"Selim had two viziers called Mustafa, and secondary sources have confused one with the other. The confusion comes from the fact that both once held the governorship of Morea. The first, known also as Mustafa Jurisevic, was raised to the vizierate upon Selim's accession (1512), and dismissed in 1514; he died in 1519. The second, who became vizier in 1519, is also known as Çoban Mustafa Pasha; he died in 1529."

And there's more. The İskender Paşa related to Muhsine Hatun was also the grandfather of the husband of one of Selim I's nieces, Kamer Sultan, the daughter of his brother Sehzade Ahmed: 

"KAMER SULTÂN: =Dâmâd Mehmed Çelebî b. Mustafa Bey (governor of Midilli in 1508) b. İskender Paşa, marriage 1508 (in this case, the Sultan's birth should be around 1493). Children: Fülâne Hanım-Sultân. Kamer Sultân was buried next to her father in Bursa."

This is confirmed by Turan:

"The governor of Midilli, Mustafa Bey, was İskender Paşa's son, in other words Muhsine's maternal uncle."

"Likewise, Selim chose as his son-in-law his father's trusted servant Bostancıbaşı İskender, who later in Bayezid's reign became the commander of the Ottoman fleet. While holding this post, İskender delivered great help to his father-in-law in 1512 by imposing a blockade on the Bosphorus and preventing his chief rival, Prince Ahmed, from crossing from Uskudar to Istanbul."

As we can see from these last two quotes, there are two İskender Paşa as well. The respected İskender Paşa who was very well-connected and whose granddaughter eventually married İbrahim Paşa, and Bostancıbaşı İskender, who became damad.

This means that the İskender Paşa that one of Selim's daughters married was not, as Öztuna implies, also maternally related to Bayezid II. Turan states clearly that he was a servant, a bostancıbaşı, and that he had been raised inside the Palace. He was, in other words, a former slave. 

All of this to say that with this material it is basically impossible to say with a degree of certainty who was married to whom and how they were called, too. After this long examination, I think it's almost safe to say that whoever married Bostancıbaşı İskender later married Çoban Mustafa Paşa; the problem is some historians say this princess was Hatice (or Hanım), others that she was Hafsa (or Hafise/Hafisa)

[ottomanladies]

Was Osman Bey the son of Mihrimah Sultan? Apart from Ayse Humasah sultan, what information is there about Mihrimah Sultan's other children? Did Rustem Pasha have another wife before he married Mihrimah Sultan? Some sources claim that Osman Bey is the son of Rustem Pasha from his first wife.

Which sources say that Rüstem had a son from a previous marriage? "Some sources" is too vague.

What I have, all secondary sources mind you, say that Sultanzade Osman Bey was Mihrimah's son. Since they did not source their claims, I cannot trace back it to the first source. My guess is Alderson since The Structure of the Ottoman Dynasty is the oldest work... but I don't know what his source was because he does not source basically anything.

Öztuna (and Uluçay and Sakaoğlu) says that Sultanzade Osman Bey died in 1576. This means that his age at the time of his death ranged from 26 to 14 (1540 is the first year in which Mihrimah could have given birth considering that she got married in November 1539, and I considered 1562 as the last year, considering that Rüstem died in July 1561). A problem poses itself: where was he interred? Certainly not with his mother, whom he had predeceased.

Before dying, Mihrimah arranged for prayers to be recited for herself and others:

the prosperity of the Dynasty - especially that of the reign of Süleyman I, her father - and the soul of its current holders (ie. Murad III)

the Prophet and his family

her wet-nurse

her daughter Ayşe Hümâ-Şâh

Rüstem Paşa and the other occupants of his mausoleum

The last point is the most interesting: who was interred with Rüstem? I tried to google it but could not find anything. Maybe Osman was buried with his father? In 1576, his mausoleum had certainly been finished.

As for another wife, I could not find anything. It would make sense for Rüstem to have been married before 1539 since he had been born in 1500. The stories about his marriage with Mihrimah do not mention a previous divorce, though that could just mean that his wife had died. In sum, I could not find anything to answer these questions.

[ottomanladies]

What was the life of the daughters of Şehzade Mustafa and Şehzade Bayazid? Did Suleiman pay special attention to them? Wikipedia mentions the names of Prince Mustafa's daughters Raziye and Fatma. The source of these names is the book of the history of Amasya by Hesamuddin Hussein. This book is a historical source. Is it more authentic than Oztana? Could Raziye actually be the daughter of Şehzade Mustafa?

Amasya Tarihi is not a contemporary source. I assume you mean that by "historical source" because well, anything can be a historical source, even a post-it. Anyways, Amasya Tarihi is a 12-book project by Hüseyin Hüsâmeddin (1869-1939), who in the end wrote only the first five volumes before dying. Volume 3, which is the one cited by the Wikipedia article, was published in 1927.

Now, I am not saying that it should be thrown away but Ottoman history has progressed a lot from 1927, and information found in that book could be dated and/or incorrect.

For example, Halûk Şehsuvaroğlu in 1953 found a plaque in the Yahya Efendi mausoleum that said "Kanunî Sultan Süleyman's daughter, Yahya Efendi's spiritual daughter, the carefree Raziye Sultan".

Now, maybe there were two Raziyes? Maybe Mustafa called one of his daughters Raziye in honour of the sister that had died in childhood? The thing is, no one mentions a Raziye among Mustafa's children. Öztuna says that he had two daughters, one called Şah and the other Nergis-Şah. Alderson confirms that one was called Şah but doesn't provide a name for the other, only that she married one Mahmud; I assume his source is von Hammer because he said that "the daughter of Prince Mustafa" married "the fourth vizier Mahmud" (Histoire de l’Empire ottoman - tome 7). While Öztuna claims that Şah's wedding was in 1562 with Selim II's daughters, I think it is more probable that her wedding was in 1566/67, when “... Ferhad Pasha, the fourth vizier Mahmoud, and the third vizier Ahmed, had married, the first the daughter of Prince Mohammed, the second the daughter of Prince Mustafa, and the third a princess of the blood, all three granddaughters of Süleyman I." It is quite known that Süleyman organised Selim II's daughters' weddings right after the execution of Bayezid, possibly to strengthen Selim's position as the indisputable heir. So, I think that Ismihan, Gevherhan and Şah (Selim II's daughter) all got married in 1562 when Mihrimah famously refused to celebrate because Bayezid had just been executed. The daughters of the "lesser" princes were instead married off in 1566/67, even though Hümâ-Şâh (Mehmed's daughter) was older than Selim II's three daughters. This is because there was a rigid hierarchy; Selim's daughters now came before all the other granddaughters because they would soon become the sultan's daughters. Indeed if Öztuna is right, Nergis-Şah was quite old at her wedding because she was born in 1536. Indeed [2], if the weddings were instead celebrated in 1567 then it was Selim II who found husbands for them and not their grandfather. That Süleyman waited for so long to marry them off may seem like a continuation of his treatment of Mahidevran after Mustafa's execution (his refusal to give her funds to pay her servants etc)... it doesn't explain, though, why Hümâ-Şâh was grouped with the daughters of executed princes. Ayşe Hümâ-Şâh got married in 1557 (possibly), way earlier than the other granddaughters. While it explains why Selim's, Mustafa's and Bayezid's daughter were unmarried (there wasn't a designated heir at the moment), I don't understand why Mehmed's daughter Hümâ-Şâh couldn't have got married in 1557 with her cousin.

Whatever, this is not what you asked.

I don't think that Süleyman paid special attention to the daughters of the princes that he had executed. Their inferior rank could also be seen in harem registers and in the stipend they received but unfortunately, I can't prove this theory.

[ottomanladies]

How did Mehmed III treat his half-sisters? Were they married in the time of Mehmed and were they powerful? You can provide information about the other daughters of Murad III (except Ayse and Fatma)

So, I have looked for information about this but I could not find anything except for the fact that they most probably ranked behind Ayse and Fatma because they were a) Mehmed III’s full-sister and b) Safiye’s daughters.

I have talked about Murad III's other daughters here, here and here

[ottomanladies]

Hello Did Selim II have a daughter named Ayse Sultan? The Solakzade tarihi mentions the marriage of Ayse Sultan with kilic Ali Pasha in 1584

Mmh Kılıç Ali Paşa was Bosnalı (Kanijeli) İbrahim Paşa’s groomsman at his wedding to Ayşe Sultan (Murad III's daughter) in 1586. As the betrothal had been signed in 1584, that is probably what you found in Tarih-i Solakzade. 

I could not find any mention of a royal wedding between Kılıç Ali Paşa and a princess. He wasn't called Damad in any source either. 

[ottomanladies]

Although some sources state that the year of Ayse Humasah Sultan's death was 1595, Juliette Dumas writes in her book (Les perles de nacre du sultanat Les princesses ottomanes (mi-XVe – mi-XVIIIe siècle) that Ayse Humasah Sultan received 150 aspres in May 1604, so she died at least in 1604 or 1605. what is your opinion?

I have noticed it too. 

I also have noticed that she is indicated as the widow of Ahmed Pasha, which I found strange because she had married Şeyh ‘Azîz Mahmûd Hüdâyî Efendi in 1583 (or around that time); since this particular harem register is dated May 1603 - May 1604, shouldn't she have been indicated as the wife of Şeyh ‘Azîz Mahmûd Hüdâyî Efendi? On the other hand, Dumas never acknowledges that Ayşe Hümâ-Şâh married him; she calls her a "fervent follower of Mahmud Efendi". In her family tree, only her first two husbands are shown (both were called Ahmed). 

Also, not to discredit Dumas completely, but she identified the widow of Cerrah Mehmed Paşa as one of Murad III's lesser-known daughters, when in fact she was Gevherhan Sultan, Murad III's sister. That is one of the most glaring mistakes I have found in her dissertation. I'm not saying it invalidates everything else, but it kind of makes me suspicious. 

In any case, it is certainly possible that Ayşe Hümâ-Şâh was alive in 1604; that would have made her around 60, I think.

[ottomanladies]

Did Sultan Ibrahim really dump his 280 wives in the Bosphorus?

No, he didn’t. It’s something that sometimes one finds in books but it doesn’t have any historical basis. I guess it’s colourful enough and it shocks people.

[ottomanladies]

Could Hurrem Sultan give birth to other children who died as a child? we are sure Şehzade Orhan was the son of Suleiman who died at a young age and was buried in his brother Mustafa's tomb in Bursa. Can she be a child of Hurrem?

I mean, yes, it’s in the realm of possibilities. There’s a time jump between Bayezid’s birth and Cihangir’s but at the same time that could mean anything. Peirce alleges that Süleyman and Hürrem were satisfied with the number of sons they had and that Cihangir had simply been a late baby, a “relapse” in their sexual relationship.

It seems - to me - weird that a son of Süleyman I would be reburied in Mustafa’s tomb, who died a traitor. His other children were usually buried in the Sultan Selim Mosque in Istanbul or with Mehmed in the Şehzade Mosque.

[ottomanladies]

Can you give me a list of Suleiman's Possible children? Thank you. Did Şehzade Mehmed (son of suleyman) have a son named Şehzade Yusuf?

Mehmed had only a daughter, Hümâ-Şâh Sultan. It is repeatedly stated in sources and historiography works. 

I have no idea what you mean by “possible children”. Contrary to what we usually think, “mater semper certa est, pater numquam”, paternity was always certain in the Ottoman harem as those women arrived as virgins and their only sexual partner was the sultan.