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#personally I see them platonically but I can see where the shippers are coming from
otaku553 · 2 years
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I have Thoughts about them
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adammilligan · 2 years
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jabel talking about how he genuinely loved playing michael and adam together and the ideas that he brought regarding them in 15x08 weren’t just his own but also the ideas of the fans because of all the time he spent doing cons where people would ask him about what he thought michael and adam were getting up to in the cage and how that sort of fed into how he portrayed them when he finally came back to the show. i love that
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anyydidi · 7 months
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N x Uzi works and N x V shippers should accept that.
Even though i’m a Nuzi (N x Uzi) shipper at heart, I like Envy (N x V). I think it’s cute and they have a great history. But…
That’s about it.
We need to realize that they are both different people now. Yes, N kind of kept his personality through it all, but he has gone through so much development, mainly thanks to Uzi. Not to mention he got his memories completely wiped out and the only reason he has/had feelings for V is because he felt the remnants of their past stronger feelings. Yes, he got his memories back, but only from the Cyn incident. We don’t have any proof of him having all of his memories from the mansion back.
We don’t even know if they just had crushes on each other. We’re not sure if they really had an established romantic relationship in the first place. Did they only have mild crushes, or were they madly in love? That’s something we’re not sure about.
And lastly, people move on. How i mentioned, they’re two different people than they were at the mansion, with absolutely different lives. It’s not wrong, or weird of N to start developing feelings for Uzi. After all, even though N’s personality didn’t really change from his past one, V has made a practically 180 turn. She’s seen as shy and reversed in the past, but ignorant, mean and murderous in the present (before her character development of course). She’s a different person from what N has fallen for. Plus, let’s be honest, V hasn’t been treating N nicely.
V has treated N very poorly. Ignoring him, pretending she doesn’t know who he is, generally just being mean to him. She probably did that to protect him, yeah, but N isn’t aware of that and really, is that an excuse to behave that way? On the other hand, Uzi has helped N grow as a person. She helps him believe in himself, she shows him what true love feels like (platonic, and now even a little romantic). She started treating him as his own person, as a person who has feelings and deserves to be treated as such. Not just some killer machine that you can use and throw around. And in turn, N was Uzi’s first friend. Someone who finally loves her for who she is. He supports her and helps her grow emotionally. They support and love each other and it’s HEALTHY.
And last but not least, NO. Nuzi is not rushed and the hand holding scene did not come from nowhere. Uzi has been shown to develop some sort of feelings for him for EPISODES now. We can see her starting to develop them in The Promening. Which is kind of a long time ago. As for N, we don’t exactly see him having romantic feelings for her until recently, we can definitely see him start to lose feelings for V since Cabin Fever. The point where he definitely realizes he feels something for Uzi, is in the scene prior to the hand holding scene, where Uzi asks him if he’s good. Obviously, he probably had some feelings for her even before, but i would say that was the realization point.
So, in conclusion, i would say both Nuzi and Envy works. The only difference is that Nuzi is in the present, and Envy is more in the past. But, let’s be honest here, does it really matter? Yes, I am more of a Nuzi shipper and definitely am rooting for them to become canon, but i wouldn’t be mad if Envy is the one who wins in the end. Both relationships have chemistry. And i think we all know that Envy is absolutely tragic and it makes me sad. So, stop the ship wars you guys. It’s not worth it. Let’s just enjoy our respective ships as they are, it is Liam’s show after all and he can do whatever he wants with it.
(This is a Nuzi defend post, I am in NO WAY hating on Envy, as i hope was stated enough. I am just tired of toxic Envy shippers attacking Nuzi for pointless reasons. Oh and btw i am a strong “V is alive, or at least comes back” believer. And that is not delusion, guys, it was clearly stated by J earlier in the episode that the disassembly drones were cloned. Glitch, I am watching you 👹👹.)
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hazbinstohell · 1 month
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Something interesting to ponder given the canon depiction of Alastor and Charlie's relationship. I've spoken to aroace people on the subject and they have explained that while they don't feel sexual/romantic attraction to others there are people they hold in a category that's different from pure platonic friendship. It's a desire to be close to an individual. Some have affectionately referred to this person/feelings toward this person as a squish.
That context is necessary as I feel canon is still going to give us charlastor in the form of a squish, even if it's just one sided. Even with how short season 1 is we see that Alastor values Charlie far more highly than anyone else, and he does seem to love being a provider of some kind, if we take Mimzy's words into account,
"But you love taking care of me!"
Even if he's not attracted to someone so long as he cares he will reciprocate that affection through what looks to be acts of service as his love language. We see this with Charlie too, she's upset and while he does make a deal for a favor once the information is handed over he leads her to the one place in Hell where Charlie's natural communication Al methods work far better than what others have conditioned her to do. When the time comes to make a big speech he offers her the crux of his power willingly, not once but twice, he openly says that he had faith in her specifically, even if he doesn't strictly believe in the viability of her mission. Charlie is the only one allowed to touch him (as far as Alastor is concerned) "intimately" and by that I mean that she is able to glomp onto him without waiting first for his express consent like Mimzy and even Rosie had to.
She's already special to him, and I think the nature of their deal means that he specifically went after her because both that she had the power to help him and the kindness not to use this weakness against him. As far as I can tell, that's essentially the squish as I understand it. So even though romantic charlastor will never be canon I still feel that with what we've been given we have a good amount of evidence for the squish theory and that makes me happy so I wanted to share
Very interesting theory. I mean, no, it is canon, I get it. I also see the aro/ace thing, and that should not stop him from having any type of relationships with anyone. I do feel like he tends to flock to Charlie for a variety of reasons, and one of them is she is now accessible and wasn’t before. There is also the fact she is powerful, as he says he sees potential in her. Personally, I see the show promoting a very unique bond between the two, but I will enjoy shipping them.
However, the whole Dad thing gave fuel to a fire…and if they start doing the teacher/student thing…..boy Charlastor shippers will be eating so good.
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youdontneedhenry · 28 days
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It's been a whirlwind day for fans of this show, and it's clearly been a better day for some more than others. I do want to acknowledge that I see and hear and understand the disappointment fans are experiencing.
I would like to speak to my own feelings, which are ones of excitement and cautious optimism because the parts of the show I enjoy the most are still intact for Season 5. I am really excited to see where this show goes. I'll put the rest below the fold so as to be respectful to the variety of emotions.
I enjoyed the episodes that didn't feature the Duke for a variety of reasons. He often talked down to Eliza, or tried to knock bring her down in a variety of ways, and so he seemed to be fundamentally incompatible for her. By the end of season 3, I started to wonder how they could course correct to make William/Eliza believable and work for me. I just couldn't see it because I didn't like how the core issue with Eliza's ambition. That's not something I could get behind.
My favorite parts of the show were always Eliza working with partners who respected her- partners like Nash and Moses. I really missed Moses in Season 4, and one thing I hope we see more of is the diversity of Victorian London that we got to see in earlier seasons.
Look, I am obviously a hardcore #ScarNash shipper. I have loved the character of Patrick Nash since his introduction in season 2. The romantic possibility was there in season 2, and then by episode 3 of season 3 (Hotel St Marc), the chemistry was rather distracting! I liked how he respected her talents and enjoyed having her take the lead.
By the end of Season 4, it was clear to me that Patrick Nash and Eliza Scarlet made the most sense. They were equals, and he recognized her talent from the beginning. Eliza's character seemed to have more growth through her interactions with Nash while her relationship with William had grown stale. The flashback episode really solidified that for me- they hadn't changed in personality in a decade, why would they ever? I forgot to mention the constant mirroring of WIlliam/Eliza romance with Patrick/Eliza's relationship. Talking about wanting to receive a present in a bow with a box to William and then having Nash give her exactly that in an area she wanted- a boost to her career. The way Nash always wanted her to work for him when William only reluctantly hired her. The way Nash acted in the entire Jewel of the North episode, including being there for Eliza when her office was trashed. And that's not even Season 4 where Eliza flat out says he's the only person who's ever had any faith in her!
I know what the writers have said about platonic relationships. And a Season 5 renewal with no Duke doesn't mean we automatically get ScarNash. But a girl can dream. They writers are SO lucky to have these actors with this amount of chemistry and a relationship that has developed over THREE seasons. There's been a satisfying arc with Patrick and Eliza. Rivals to friends to lovers would be satisfying. We've watched them grow individually and together. It would make sense.
My wishlist for season 5 certainly includes: a female friend for Eliza that isn't Ivy, for Moses to come back (I know this is not happening lol) and for ScarNash to be canon. I think it would be incredible, and I hope others can come around.
As a side note, it's been absolutely delightful to share this news with ScarNash fans and to find NEW people who have quietly shipped ScarNash. I sometimes felt like there were only a few of us, but truly there's so many people that love the idea of them. So while I think it's not at all guaranteed that it'll be canon, I certainly continue to hope this has opened the door to it. We'll wait and see! I'm looking forward to the new season with more excitement than I've had for any piece of media in awhile.
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dontcallmeeds · 1 year
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I saw a twitter thread that was giving reasons for Nancy Wheeler being a lesbian and I gotta say, I agree. At least that Nancy is NOT straight. The way she interacts with Barb….dude, do you know how many of the stairs conversations (from season one before Barb disappears) I’ve had with friends who were secretly seeing me??? The whole “this isn’t you” after Nancy lies about where she’s going and the way she reacts with her facial expressions…..bro, they’ve kissed before. This has been said a million times here and otherwise since season one.
But with the level of grief and guilt she goes through in season two, I’m seeing that right now in myself as someone who just had one of their best friends pass away suddenly who was also an ex. The whole “bullshit” Stancy Halloween fight could be chalked up to grief and liking Jonathan sure, but I think it’s way more than that. I think she’s calling everything bullshit including herself because she lost the one person who saw her, someone she loved more than just platonically.
Then season three is mostly just her fighting with Jonathan if you really think about it, because she wants to be more than just a sandwich girl at Hawkins Post. Someone Barb would be proud of. We only see her really happy with Jonathan in season three when they wake up late and she sneaks out and the soft moment they have at the end when he’s leaving. Other than that they’re either fighting with each other or fighting monsters. Robin calls her a “priss,” but before Steve she was just kind of a…nerd. Like Robin. Maybe they ran in the same circles? We know they don’t know each other in person, at least Nancy doesn’t know HER.
FOLLOW ME HERE: What if Robin knew Barb?? What if Barb confided in her that she had feelings for Nancy, but that Nancy was dating Steve and we know how hard Robin goes for her friends so she just made this assumption that Nancy is a priss????
Then season four of course, we see Nancy not going to California. She’s frustrated that Jonathan wouldn’t be coming and she stayed for the basketball game for her front page news right?? Why didn’t she take another flight hmmm??? And we think she’s jealous of Robin, but what if she was jealous of Steve??? Because we don’t really have indication that Steve and Nancy have spent much time around each other since summer ‘85…but Robin and Nancy go to school together. Robin is in band which means they’re in the same room *hypothetically* for the important games that Nancy needs to document. We don’t know how many games Steve went to besides the one, he could’ve been working on some of those games or on dates. So ipso facto, Robin and Nancy have (probably) been in the same room more than Steve and Nancy….why would she suddenly be jealous of ROBIN???
And you can see her genuinely enjoying being around Robin after her monologue at the psych ward when she was being “annoyed” and “on edge” with her before that. I don’t see that as “oh well she started considering her a friend” I think she had a crush, she was on edge because she had lost Barb and didn’t want to feel that way about another girl. But the monologue relaxes her because she realized Robin is just as unhinged as she is, but in a different way. Because Nancy Wheeler is IMPULSIVE. She’s smarter than hell, but she is so careless with her own safety.
Also every time the Bylers shippers contrast the Wheeler siblings really they’re just giving us Nancy Wheeler is gay proof too. Because look at their similar behaviors. They fight and bicker in a way that says “i know what you are, NO I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE”
NOT VERY STRAIGHT IF YOU ASK ME.
Also, while I now understand my attraction to men is because I was a queer trans dude the entire time, I used to think it was comphet. But everything I feel about men is different than the way Nancy feels about men. It feels forced, it feels like she thinks she HAS to have a boyfriend and HAS to force a real connection with them. COMP. MOTHERFUCKIN. HET.
In conclusion, for the love of god, let Nancy Wheeler kiss girls. Natalia wants it, the fans want it. Give us a SMOOCH.
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sankatsuka · 6 months
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Joker (and Akechi) Character Discussion - Emptiness, Desire for Love and A Choice to Live Imprisoned
Warnings:
This is only based on P5R canon.
My evidence can be interpreted in many ways - this is just my own interpretation based on my own experiences.
This is from a Joker fan so I may be biased.
My knowledge of Makoto Yuki and Yu Narukami mostly comes from the animation (I intend to start P4G soon).
I don't fully recall information. If it helps the reader's understanding, I'll search for the the actual text and insert it later on.
Very heavy on Akeshu, their dynamic is very important to their characterization. I am a romantic shipper, but it can be interpreted as platonic too.
The core of this discussion is the theme of depression and emptiness that I believe both Joker and Akechi struggle with. Another theme that I believe is an important foil between the two is Joker's struggle with self-expression and Akechi's over-expression—
Joker’s Way of Living - Playfully Going with the Flow
To me, Joker's character in P5R was shaped the most by his social link with Akechi. It's the only social link where Joker expresses strong emotions without the player making the active choice to or being pressured by outside forces. Joker has always been portrayed as someone who is quiet and keeps his distance, but does still participate in fun and festivities with his friends. Point being, only when people ask him out to do something fun/he feels inclined to as a social gesture, he will participate. In Akechi's social link though was my favourite moment of the entire game - Joker unapologetically disguising Akechi. This was a really small moment but it was the only time he did something just for fun, unprompted, which I really appreciate. 
There's also Hifumi who’s his age and has the same celebrity aura and aloof personality as Akechi. You can choose to mess with her, but it isn't as huge an effort as what Joker does to Akechi. Joker's character to me is someone who CAN poke fun at others, but taking the initiative to do something fun just because it’s fun? Never. Except for around Akechi, which I found incredibly cute: when he says it was fun, Akechi seems slightly amused too, as if he was pleased to see Joker having fun when he normally just goes with the flow. This is something the P3 and P4 protagonists share as well, that they always structure their days to be productive, have no hobbies and only respond wittily to people as a personality. It's silent protagonist stuff, but I like to think it's a good portrayal of depression. A Wild Card is a person who can summon multiple persona - which means they have many masks they use to face hardship, and so these masks are a manifestation of their many personalities. For me, the protagonists are Wild Cards because they are so used to 'acting' to seem normal around other people, to hide away their emptiness and lack of real self desires.
One of P4TA's episodes really stood out to me for building Yu's character in that he resonated with Mitsuo who felt emptiness in his daily life. Yu struggled with being accused of being 'empty' because he has no bonds once you took away his supernatural powers from him. I was really surprised by this episode, because what? Actual characterization for a protagonist with no personality? DEPRESSION?!?!?! He was able to shout that he wasn't empty when Yosuke reached out for him, and this makes me believe that Wild Cards are Wild Cards because their bonds define them - what fills their hearts is this love. These supernatural events give something for Wild Cards to identify with for people to love them, that if you take it away from them then there’s nothing left of them for their friends to stay around for - but Yosuke and the P4 cast prove that they would never leave Yu alone. That's why Wild Cards are not malicious in their 'acting', rather they just have no personality, nothing they care for or like etc, so they can only adapt to the people who want to reach out and care about them. At first, the act is superficial, but with time it becomes a real part of them (MAX Social Link). It’s not unhealthy but just… a way of life you have to embrace and acknowledge if you were dealt the depression card, unfortunately, or else you would be running from yourself. 
(Also, on a side note, I love how the topic of depression isn’t understood by the cast because they aren’t aware they have felt it/just don’t experience it - and they’re all just ‘what-the-hell’ about Mitsuo’s motivations. But Yu knows, keeps it a secret and just plays along - there’s no need for anyone to know, he wants to protect this happiness. How Rise asks him about how he gained his Persona in the same episode as if to point attention to how Yu is similar to Mitsuo, needing something badly to fill the void, but had already acknowledged his emptiness from the start. God, thank you Persona for portraying high-functioning depression so well)
And if P4TA wasn’t enough a portrayal of high-functioning depression and the importance of love, then Behind the Mask’s lyrics are all about that too.
Love for Oneself and Others: What Makes Akechi Wrong and Joker Right
To emphasize on the importance of love to the protagonists, if I’m not mistaken Akechi states clearly how he wanted to be loved and Shido points that out too about Akechi. The fact he's able to summon multiple Persona goes to show how he's empty as a person, and that he has the potential like the protagonists to create new personas. Akechi's lack of trust however is what makes it impossible for him to manifest more than two Persona, as Futaba points out. However, unlike the protagonists, his other Persona Robin Hood wasn't born from a bond, but rather from the love of himself and his past ideals. OK, hear me out, although Akechi suffering from being unwanted does very much affect his ability to truly love and accept himself, the ability to acknowledge his suffering is still self-love in itself, proof that he cares about meeting his own needs. This isn't like the protagonists who go on with life accepting the cards that are dealt to them. Akechi however fears opening his heart to people because of his circumstances growing up, so it was natural for him to only trust and care about himself and nobody else to survive - this is his love, making Robin Hood’s existence possible.  
But being selfish like this makes you lose sight of your morals, of what it truly means to love and be loved - because you will do whatever it takes to survive and be happy in what you believe to be just a shitty strong-eats-weak world, which is how Akechi wound up as Shido's accomplice - now he can use his new powers to tip that cursed power balance. But it’s obvious to Shido that Akechi’s actions screamed wanting to be loved, because he could have used his powers for anything else, yet his first instinct was to reach out to someone who should have loved him and use that power to be relevant to him. And then he decides to build a reputation as a celebrity with what he enjoyed doing best (solving cases) when such a thing was just an unnecessary effort. In fact, wanting to be a celebrity could be said to be the cause of Akechi’s downfall in the first place, because he doesn’t even care about sweets but had to pay attention to fads as a celebrity - then pancakes. Someone who grew up unwanted and unloved would naturally end up being driven by a desire to be loved, even if they believe they’re being ‘strong’. Akechi probably always knew, because after running away from the label of ‘unwanted child’, what else could he do when he was an empty husk of a shell? The only things he could remember is what he wanted as a child - a father, to be a hero and friends. Friends were outside the question now though, because he learned he can’t trust anyone. And his father was a scumbag, so he would never love him normally - but with this power, Akechi had the power to beat adults in power into submission, too. So it made sense that was his first instinct, a revenge to fill his emptiness - and then, so as to not feel alone again, Akechi became a celebrity - because friends were out of the question.
But this corrupted Akechi meets Joker who's living the ideal life he wanted as a child, being surrounded by friends and playing hero despite having shitty circumstances. And not giving a damn about his real family who threw him out here. This infuriates Akechi, because he believed it was impossible and so he worked hard for a less ideal future of being a celebrity with an unknown past. He never believed he could live a normal life overcoming the label of an unwanted child put on him, and here Joker was so effortlessly surrounded by friends while still being labeled a criminal. The label on Akechi is also interesting because it isn't something that everyone knows yet he still feels haunted by it - I love how this portrays that your past will always follow you everywhere, UNTIL you decide to accept it. Akechi probably realizes that Joker is happier because he accepted that label of a criminal and lived with it, and Akechi made a mistake. And this creates the foundation on which he hates and envies Joker, why did Akechi have to be in the wrong when he worked this hard? Akechi already feels incapable of doing anything right from the circumstances of his birth alone, and making more mistakes reinforces this idea that he will never do anything right, makes him more spiteful at his own birth and this frenzy of self-hatred makes it hard to grasp what’s right and wrong to him again. Akechi HATES Joker because of how Joker was able to make the right choices - in a way, this means that Joker's justice beat his.
Joker’s Desire for Perfection (Power) to Love
But that's on Akechi's side. I love that you have the option to make Joker say, 'I'm jealous of you too', to Akechi in his social link. Joker expresses a desire not to lose to Akechi, in billiards or in battle, despite not having any real reason to honor the rivalry. Joker clearly just plays along with Mishima because he has no reason to see Mishima the way he wants to be seen, nor does it benefit the two of them. Here, being rivals could easily be interpreted as a nonsense talk, especially since Akechi was a celebrity, so there was no room for pleasing people either. Even how Akechi gets surprised that Joker remembers the whole rival thing shows Akechi didn’t expect to come off so seriously from the start. Joker wanted to beat him for his own personal reasons. I took this as an implication that Joker admires and envies the perfection and capability Akechi demonstrates. Metaverse Joker’s pompousness and show-off nature does reflect how it’s Joker ideal to be that way, too. This further builds on Joker's feelings towards people, that there's a desire to be perfect and capable for them, and it's reflected in his interactions with them - how he tries to be their best supporter. 
But Joker's way of supporting people isn't consistent. It depends on what he believes is in their best interest, even if it's not what the other wants, like with Mishima - it goes to show he doesn't have an actual personality, but rather his conversations with people are adapted to their needs like his masks that they create in him. This personality of caring about people's best interests and getting involved is why he acted in the harassment incident. But I do think he never initiates friendships of his own accord, and rather has people as confidants, because the trauma of the incident still lingers - that staying indifferent is far better than getting close to people (because he'll just let them down like he has his family and friends). It doesn't stop him from speaking up when things are clearly wrong though (every social link), so it's only that that trauma has hampered his ability to form new relationships. 
I like to HC that he keeps his distance because of how his decision to rescue the woman ruined his relationships with his family and friends. And he doesn't want this to happen again, but he still wants to act when he believes it's right. He needs people so he can fill his emptiness. If he was perfect and capable like Akechi, maybe he could have both saved the woman and somehow not end up with a criminal record. The fact they never talk about his past relationships in canon and Sojiro brings up how he’s troubled his parents does make me HC that it's something he strongly suppressed. His inclination to care about others and get involved goes to show he has always been a kind-hearted person, and his emptiness has likely always been there since before the incident as he accepted the outcome of it without much spite. In fact, it’s the PTs who get angry for him about Shido. He lets people shape his personality, with how after the incident he chose to lay low as people told him to, but he couldn't because he could never change his love and concern for other people. There is also how Joker started wearing spectacles without actually needing them (not confirmed though) and changed his fashion to appear more ‘presentable’. One could deduce it was motivated by the anxiety from disappointing his loved ones with the person he had been and moving to a huge city all on his own where he knew nobody. 
Joker: A Willing Prisoner of His Own Heart
If Akechi closed his heart out of fear, then Joker opened his heart to people. Far too much, that he allows them to dictate who he is - and the only emotion he lets slip is his concern for their best interest, even if they push him away. Other than that, there’s nothing else. This is what I like to think makes Joker a prisoner, because unlike the P3 and P4 protagonists, his heart is never free to truly develop as himself and reach his true answer. Makoto’s answer was growing from apathetic to believing in himself and humanity, Yu’s answer was embracing the happiness that friends bring him… and Joker still hasn’t defined what happiness is for him. Playing hero for the whole of Tokyo twice is still just acting in humanity’s best interests. In fact, playing hero itself can be considered escapism that blinds you from your true desires even more (Ryuji), unless you’re aware of why you want to play hero. Joker never had this epiphany like Ryuji had, nor does he have strong motivations to do what he’s doing like the rest of the PTs, so it can’t be said he’s actually following his heart.
This is reflective of P5's themes too, of the final boss being the manifestation of people's desires to stay prisoners to society. And humanity's worst, most dangerous inmate is Joker himself, which can be interpreted as him being the one who wants to free prisoners but wants to stay imprisoned (LOL). His desire to be that someone who frees other prisoners may be a result of his own projection, that he can’t save himself so he’ll save others. Yaldabaoth comments how Joker's psyche manifested as a prison, and Lavenza talks about how the Velvet Room was originally planned to help Joker develop as a person in the very same prison rather than rehabilitate him. If the Velvet Room is a representation of the guest's journey in P3 and P4, then Joker's journey is as a prisoner to society. He is only trapped behind the bars in prisoner garments when he remains unaware of Yaldabaoth's influence, but even in his Phantom Thief costume the form of the prison doesn’t change even once he’s free from the bars. To me, I interpret this as Joker's ideal that he believes he will forever be trapped in the prison of never expressing himself, but he is at least free to live for the sake of others. At the start, he’s behind bars because he struggles to accept that it is right for him to live for others, but confronting Yaldabaoth is a pivotal moment where he unapologetically makes the decision to save humanity. And the moment he truly feels ‘free’ to live that way.
I'm inclined to believe that his upbringing is what shaped him to be the way he is today - my theory is that he was loved, but not for being himself but for being "someone else". It is something common: Hifumi, Makoto and Haru were seen in this way by people they loved. But the difference is that they recognized these expectations were wrong, so they were unhappy. Makoto, though, agreed with some of her sisters' expectations, until she met PTs and suddenly she wasn’t meeting anyone’s expectations, and this led her to realize she never needed to. The way she was content staying ignorant goes to show how that prison is bearable and comfortable to live in if you're capable of meeting most if not all expectations. I like to think Joker was this kind of person, until the incident with Shido happened. Both Makoto and Joker's reactions when they're suddenly not living up to the expectations of people around them are to try harder - Makoto rushing recklessly for Kaneshiro, Joker changing himself after moving to Tokyo. Or else people will leave them and not care about them anymore, except Makoto has decided that that's a false belief now.
However, unlike Makoto, Joker loves people too much to even think that they were wrong for placing expectations on him. When he awakens his Persona, he’s judging whether he was right or wrong in his choice to act, whereas Makoto’s awakening represents her letting go of the weight of people’s expectations on her. You can even pick the option of ‘I may have been wrong’ when Joker awakens, but he still awakens - going to show his ‘true mask when facing hardships’ is one who wants to keep supporting and protecting people, even if he’s wrong and it hurts him. I like to think Makoto was able to criticize other people and her sister because her father taught her her self-worth by loving her unconditionally in the past and showing her she didn’t have to live to satisfy anyone. The same goes for Hifumi and Haru. But Joker likely never had this unconditional love to realize this, so his only choice is to push forward to keep meeting people's expectations while wanting to protect them, even if it means becoming a villain and outcast. He has to meet people's expectations, or else he has no reason to live - the only Joker who exists is the Joker someone needs. 
But it's because of this, that the desire to be perfect to meet people's expectations is strong in both Makoto and Joker, and hence they view Akechi as their rival. Akechi is very clearly the pinnacle of perfection on the outside. But Joker's feelings for Akechi are stronger, because Makoto no longer needs acknowledgement - her rivalry with him just continues because of the past. For Joker, if he had Akechi's perfection, it would be far easier to live the life he's chosen for himself. What Makoto and Joker don't realize is that Akechi is only able to achieve this state of perfection because he does it selfishly for himself, not to meet the expectations of the people, so it's impossible for them. They will never have his confidence and pride because they are never living entirely for themselves. In fact, Akechi's way of living for him and only himself is a total foil to Joker himself, who entirely lives for other people. It's because of how different they are, that after meeting Joker, Akechi was able to realize what he truly wanted and where he had gone wrong - the 'requited love' Joker has for the people around him who celebrate him as a hero. But it's only because Joker is on such an extreme Akechi is able to see it - being on extreme clearly means there's something wrong with it, though.
Joker’s Numbness to His Own Emotions, and Akechi Awakening Them
I absolutely love the ship for how they complete each other. The game focuses a lot on what Joker means to Akechi, but their relationship vice versa is way more important and personal to me. BE WARNED IT'S JUST MY DELUSION THOUGH. Let’s first talk about Joker's reaction to Akechi's death, that was either to forget or to hold onto the glove. I'm inclined to think forgetting is even an option because Akechi hadn't fully wormed his way into Joker's heart like the latter did. It’s as if deciding to forget something painful so you can keep functioning as normal, even if you want justice/closure for it (like with Shido). Because Akechi’s influence wasn’t strong enough for Joker to grow out of his society-conforming attitude, it’s still an option (and more about how Akechi may have reinforced and justified this attitude later on in the Boiler Room discussion).
Honoring their promise, to Joker, is still something he does out of caring about the other's best interest. As shown in how opting to talk about the glove when Akechi tells you to leave at his last moments makes Akechi happy. It did show Akechi that he still mattered to someone in his last moments, after all. But not expressing his grief about Akechi's death goes to show nothing has changed with Joker. Maybe he wasn’t that sad, but Third Semester proves that wrong. It seems more that he doesn’t realize how much he cares about Akechi, as he never expresses what Akechi means to him even when Maruki clarifies that his decision to revert reality would mean Akechi would be gone.
He did react with apprehension in making the decision, probably because 1) he was deciding whether to kill someone off right in front of them 2) Maruki's words were implying how important Akechi is to him, that he's been ignoring his emotions and he should carefully make a choice. For himself. Even if he knows the right answer, the reality is that Akechi is dead and that he has to go back to that. The way he doesn't seem to care about Akechi's words on 'finding a way back' goes to show he never trusted Akechi to survive in the first place, and only talked about the glove to appease him. That moment of hesitation was important to his characterization for me, as it was like a moment when a numb character has finally been told to feel for himself and be selfish. People pleasing does reign, but it doesn’t change that Joker was told to think more about it for himself.
I would like to think that although Joker’s reaction to Maruki dangling Akechi’s life in front of him could be considered his people-pleasing, the tidbits from their social link shows Joker just isn’t aware of how much Akechi matters to him and that moment makes him just, realize. From the start, he was surprisingly perceptive about Akechi - I interpret this as the surprise of being acknowledged by someone so popular, perfect, in an entirely different league from him and/or initial attraction. Then there’s how Akechi had single-handedly showered Joker in love in the way he makes it a point to talk about every small thing he notices about Joker - being so highly scrutinized like that if you grew up being unseen/seen as someone else is so goddamn satisfying. Especially by someone you perceive as superior and/or have an attraction to. How Joker then felt safe to be pushy and playful around Akechi, because he felt Akechi would accept it and find it to be yet another amusing side to Joker. Joker was able to show glimpses of his real self to Akechi, even if small. To me, it’s why Joker cares so much for someone who lied to him all this time: it doesn’t change that Akechi paid such close attention to understand the real him when everyone else chose to see him the way they want to. 
Then there's how he’s also nothing like the real Akechi, someone who can survive alone and be so unapologetic about his emotions no matter how deviant they are. It’s a form of freedom Joker has never had nor considered, that seeing it at first makes him feel nothing because he’s content where he is. If he were to ever run into a wall because he couldn’t express himself, Akechi would be the first one he would remember. Like how Akechi approached Joker and had an interest in him, sharing more about himself - as if because he wanted Joker to save him. It's the same for Joker, too, that Akechi serves to remind him of his absence of emotional freedom that he doesn’t realize because he’s numbed himself far too much. 'We love other people because they have something we don't have', something along the lines of a quote in my favourite romance manga (Skip and Loafer, pls go watch). Akechi's selfishness and ability to act alone for his own sake, even if misguided, is something Joker can never bear to do if faced with his own happiness and the happiness of many more.
Joker’s Justice VS Akechi’s Justice - The BOILER ROOOOOM
If not for his friends, if not for Akechi’s small mistake, Akechi would have won and killed him. Akechi might have been able to achieve his goals that way, without having to let go and compromise on what he wants, or he may have failed entirely. It's only because Akechi was human and Joker was surrounded by people that Joker was saved from his demise, and Akechi's happiness was robbed from him - showing how Joker's way of living, his justice, is superior. 
Does that mean Akechi’s way of living has always been wrong?
It's still hard for me to interpret how Joker felt in the Boiler Room, but these kinds of thoughts that start from how Akechi could have gotten his way are likely the strongest as it involves Joker's own wellbeing and Akechi's grand goals that were the focus of the situation. Of course, the exchange in the Boiler Room can be interpreted as just Akechi's one-sided spite for Joker, but it's better if it's mutual. Joker never reaches out to save Akechi as desperately as the other PTs do, and I like to think it's because it’s another numb moment for Joker. This was their promised battle to the death, and Akechi lost. Joker’s justice won - a justice where you should live in society doing your best to support other people without bothering anyone, even if you’re suffering and suffocating. This reinforces the justice that dictates Joker's true self has to stay trapped forever. Even if you can meet expectations and accept suffering, no matter how much people love you… it'll still be a difficult and empty life if you can't freely be yourself. Yu is able to break out of this because he knows he has a safe place with his friends to express himself, that his emotions are ‘normal’, but Joker still doesn’t feel entirely safe - not when the PTs describe their group as a place where misfits can feel at home. It isn’t a place where you can feel ‘normal’ - the PTs just reinforce that your true feelings are deviant in society. Seeing an opposing justice lose so badly… a justice that dictates you to be yourself and free, when Joker knows he isn't happy deep down, would stir some feelings of nihilism in him. There is just no place in the world for deviants like them.
But it doesn’t bother Joker so much because he’s already taken ownership of the fact that he’s a deviant, as with his awakening. He can’t be saved, and he’ll just keep plowing through if so.
Both ends of Akechi and Joker's justices are flawed. Akechi's justice disregards the wellbeing of the people around you, Joker's justice disregards your own wellbeing. Akechi is able to give himself a second chance because of the kindness that Joker's justice displays– Even if you stepped out of bounds of society from the pressure, you should still live and take responsibility for the good of both yourself and other people. The gentleness and open arms of this justice, or at least the people practicing it, allows Akechi to integrate it into his own and properly complete him as a person with the ‘love’ and ‘selflessness’ he was missing. In the end, it was the PTs who saved Akechi, but it was Joker who opened his eyes to it - to living with an open heart to people, as happiness cannot come without trust. That's why Akechi knows what's right for him now, because the two justices have come together.
However, Joker continues on his justice, disregarding his own wellbeing. It's fine as long as he's around people who acknowledge his presence, as long as it takes a shape Joker agrees with. Because his way of living has always been centered around playing a role and meeting expectations. But at home where these expectations have become increasingly unrealistic, especially because of the incident with Shido, it's a different story. Joker is likely aware of his fear, but pushes himself to face it like the PTs have decided with their own dreams -  I interpret the message of Joker's Metaverse self in the mirror in the True Ending of P5R as representing his determination to tread reality with that same, self-sacrificing justice, no matter how difficult - the same way he dealt with Maruki’s reality. I find it exciting to explore how the story would continue after Joker returns home because of that. 
He doesn't grow like any of the PTs or Akechi in the canon events because his way of living isn’t wrong nor does it bring him any pain (because he’s not blind, he’s aware of his choices from the awakening of Persona). But his way of living only brings him happiness when he’s with people who have reasonable expectations/unconditional love for whoever he is. As long as he can meet their expectations. But the people who shaped him to live being someone else - his family - won’t have reasonable expectations for him, especially after the incident with Shido. They say the people who can hurt you the most are the people who love you, because they have a vested interest in your happiness, but have ideals of what happiness is and can grow unreasonable in controlling you for you to be happy. It’s normal and parents get over it after their kids have their rebellious phase, but it’s another story of worse if you can’t express yourself properly - and that’s why as you grow up it’s necessary to better understand yourself and have boundaries. I do HC Joker has a hard time expressing himself properly out of anxiety/autism, which is why he speaks so little. And he accepted whatever the people around him wanted without much resistance because it was more difficult to express yourself for him. I feel like this is where Akechi’s justice serves to complete Joker, to break him free from the silly bonds that trap and define him and give him a good wake-up call to not give up on expressing and understanding himself.
Akechi and Joker represent selfishness and selflessness deviants of society to me, two emotions that have to coexist in perfect balance to be happy. What more, they also go to show that choosing to grow up selfish or selfless happens when you aren’t loved for being yourself - you know that you have to co-exist with people who don’t love you, so you survive by either beating them down or pleasing them. I find there’s a lot more to talk about Akechi-Joker foils over Adachi-Yu, that it discusses the whole concept of living in a society which rejects you. Exploring Joker’s character does add a lot more to the discussion, but that’s just me.
Dynamics of two people that complete each other are always, always my OTPs… P5 has its problematic writing but thank you very much for Akeshu Atlus (This is beyond delusional but how Justine (J=Joker) and Caroline (C=Crow) complete each other to create Lavenza (L=Love)??? How Justine has Joker’s composed sassy demeanor and Caroline has Crow’s aggressive behaviour????? Justine seeming to be in charge of the Compendium containing all the Persona born from Joker’s bonds???)
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just-antithings · 3 months
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I'm just really annoyed
If two characters are best friends I can't ship them because they don't have to be more than friend and I can't see the value in friendship and platonic relationships
If two characters are enemies I can't ship them because it's abusive and I shouldn't see abusive behavior as romantic
If both of them never met I shouldn't ship them because it doesn't make sense for them to fall in love
If they it's a gay ship I should value male friendships
If they it's a lesbian ship I'm fetishazing
If it's a straight ship I'm homophobic
If it's a biracial ship I'm racist
You can't win
Can antis just say they dislike shipping and stop interacting with fandom please ? It's ok fandom is not a moral duty you don't have to participate
Most people ship a ship because they like it not because some moral duty people didn't ship gay ships because they wanted represention (correct me if I'm wrong) they did because they liked the thought of these to specific characters together (again I may be wrong but I met alot of homophobic shippers who are 100% ok with taking the rights of queer people but are ok with shipping as long as it's fiction) the reason for being more x ship in fandom is not because people hate y ship it is because more people wrote about x ship nothing more fanfiction is not a corporation it's not about wich ship is more liked it's about how much people want to write (I'm side eyeing some gen fic lovers who love to pretend the world is an unpure place where people like *gasp* evil sex sex it normal coming from an asexual girl never touching that thing but it's normal)
If you dislike a trope or ship avoid if you want more content that you like make it a random fanfic writer doesn't owe you shit Antis !!!
And I'm also talking about the ones who complain about changing characters personalities and watering them down , nobody is forcing you to read fanfic if you think all the writers are doing a bad job at portraying (most fanfic writers are doing it for fun I'm not gonna make everything 100% accurate like it or not I'm coming home from a 9 to 5 I just want my blorbos to kiss in my coffee shop au I don't care for them to be an accurate representation of cannon) the characters and tropes then Don't read or write a fanfic with your superior portrayal of characters (but they won't all the rare pair fanfic writers ive met are sweet people and make themselves more content and not act like entitled Alogthrem babies)
Listen up fanfic writers if it isn't fun it isn't worth it that's the only rule of fanfiction out their other than that it's free game and for the love of god remember that your doing this shit for free so other people's opinions are not in any way important
👆👆👆👆
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devine-fem · 17 days
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lol might get hate for this but in my opinion in terms of the ranking the SuperBat pairings….
1.) Damijon/Jondami- Yes I’m completely bias but I never felt this strong for such a pairing (regardless either platonic/romantic! ) Such an iconic (chaotic) duo! I’m glad the dynamic of Damian and Jon worked out well and is well loved!
2.) Superbat-I mean they are the OGs and I can get why fans love their dynamic and pair them! I’m more bromance for them but I do look forward to their interactions whenever the two appear together!
3.) Timkon-I’m neutral for them. I like the fanarts if I see them but otherwise I think they seem more aesthetically good together than like actually together. Hey at least Tim has Bernard now and personally Kon deserves better.
Jon + Damian have squashed potential. Their friendship would have done both their characters so much good. Eventually, as they grew Jon would have felt like he’d have to chase after Damian and keep up and Damian would seek and find in Jon when it comes to anything he can’t obtain as a hero.
Out of all the popular ships, this one is particularly rare.
Imagine a world where Jon and Damian did engage in a romantic relationship in later years. I think it would be great queer rep to show two people who knew each other as friends - grappling with the same heroic pressures and coming to terms with the fact that they might not want to be just friends anymore (a common queer experience) I also think that in stories where they are do become Batman and Superman, it’d feel very refreshing to see DC have the courage to portray an iteration of their most popular characters like that.
These characters are both fairly new and not so much engraved into the audience. They both know each other and share chemistry so there wouldn’t be a lot of room for complaint.
Superbat is meh to me. Over the years, It has done a lot regarding DC fandom, it’s a ship that’s become iconic and is popular amongst passive fans which could become quite annoying.
Superbat is realistically, never going to happen. Respectfully, I doubt DC would do anything in all seriousness when it comes to anything romantic between these two.
Especially with the obvious things like how Batman is and how Clark has a wife and kids.
Although, no ship is shipped under the ideation of becoming canon so I give this pair its flowers because honestly, it could be nice in domestic situations or maybe a workplace relationship but I don’t see it being endgame or like anything happening at all in a likable way.
Timkon, I’m very, very bias about how much I dislike Timkon. Most Timkon shippers realistically do not read comics and I know this because I was one at first for a short amount of time and realized how deluded and far off from the truth Timkon actually is.
It’s crazy to me because fandom is so intense about this ship and all for it to be… alright?
A lot of Timkon stuff is boiled down to being one-sided on Tim’s part. It really irks me that Timkon's evidence is like Tim trying to clone Conner while knowing that he has a thing about not being cloned because he’s a clone himself which irks me.
Then him dating his ex-girlfriend is a HUGE red flag to me, especially when their relationship was semi-abusive and built on grief but good thing it didn’t last.
Also, Tim and Conner are NOT as close as people pretend they are. Conner doesn’t know much about Tim beyond him being Robin, they don’t hang out outside of being heroes.
In reality, Conner doesn’t know much about Tim at all and he’s much closer with his other teammates - literally any other YJ teammate other than Tim. Conner's established friendship with Tim caused a lot of really horrible character assassinations on Bart, Cassie, and Conner. It pushed all characters aside in an attempt to emphasize their relationship.
If they were to have a relationship then people acknowledge its toxicity - see toxicity doesn’t take away from shipability but frankly, I think both these characters deserve to be happy.
If they did date, I seriously give them half a year before they break up. I’m happy Tim is with Bernard because he seems much happier than he’s ever been. I’m sorry, reading those comics it felt like Tim was just grieving his friend after having lost a family member and he was spiraling and needing help, that’s not ‘cute’ to me.
Anyway, I notice Timkon shippers use Kon more as an accessory to Tim and melt his character down for that. If they read his comics then they’d know that he is canonically attracted to Bart anyway (I say canonically because of the on-the-nose insinuation which I take as gospel because it’s crazy for a writer to just outright mention Conner might be attracted to Bart.) Which Bart is most of the reason Conner is queer coded like he is now anyway.
Anyway, not saying all Timkon shippers are horrible but I don’t like the shippers or the ship. It’s substanceless for me. If you like it I’m very happy for you. I think all of these ships are iconic and adorable. This is just me being a person with an opinion.
Anyway, my thoughts.
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automaticcatsandwich · 4 months
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Not that I hate the shippers or the ship but am I the only one who wants more of platonic Thalia and Luke? Like I get where the shippers are coming from and I think that if the tree incident never happened they'd probably become a thing but...
Show me the scared, horribly lonely and miserable children that found each other on the streets and became each other's best friend. Show me the lonely kids that most likely never had any luck bonding with kids their own age in the mortal world find a person they can actually trust to not judge them for their differences, feelings and appearances. Give me a platonic boy-girl relationship that is absolute chaos. Show me Thalia and Luke being each other's ride or die. Show me Thalia and Luke knocking sense into the other when they go overboard. Show me them comforting each other. Show me the pessimistic Luke growing to enjoy life despite what he knows and sees because Thalia is there and helps him get through it. Show me Thalia struggling through the grief and denial of her brother being gone and Luke bringing her out of that negative shell even if she doesn’t tell him everything. Show me kids being kids. Platonic heterosexual relationships. Not everything has to be romantic.
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mikodrawnnarratives · 1 month
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Headcanoning Max as aroace and Maggie as Lithromantic. I think Max might be hesitantly wonder if he's aromantic for a while but be like "BUT I was in quarantine my whole life till now so MAybE I hAVen't FoUND thE RIghT PeRsoN"
But no in actuality he's just aroace regardless of the quarantine
And then Lithromantic: "A lithromantic person feels romantic love toward others but doesn't want those feelings reciprocated" or other definitions will be along those lines (quote from grindr)
I think another orientation that could fit Maggie is I think the term is Frayromantic, where you can feel romantic attraction to someone at first and it fades over time when you get to know them
Marissa Meyer is likely gonna go the romantic route for these two if/once the series gets an extra book. Seeing as Maggie has a crush on Max from what has been written at the end of Supernova and in Cinder's Adventure (which isn't canon but it's probably hints of what's to come). So. Tsudere Maggie. Not great, marginally different from Nodrian in my opinion. but whatever is written next for Maggie and Max, I'll pick it apart, take what I want for my platonic headcanons, and leave the rest for the shippers
While I'm here at the end of Aromantic Awareness Week I'll remind you all that we NEED to keep signing petitions, emailing and calling our representatives to STOP the Kosa bill from being passed!! It will cause massive censorship on the Internet and affect EVERYONE.
This post and this post have good links that you can use and most of these will take only a couple minutes if not less!
I know I say this on a post to a pretty small fandom on Tumblr from what I've seen but hopefully it'll still reach people
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chuuya-fan-page · 6 months
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yeeeaaaah, the minute I saw that tiktok was referring to sigma as “she/her” I knew it was going to be full of takes based on a bastardization of canon. like no shade or disrespect to anyone who does use those pronouns for sigma, i don’t get why but that’s not my business, but the facts are that if you’re dealing explicitly and unbiasedly with what actually is canon, which this tiktok pretends it is, then the facts are that that’s just not canon. acting like it is, tells me that this person has their own idea of what canon is and it’s not an accurate picture
Headcanons are all well and good, I am fully for any and all pronouns for Sigma honestly, but like you said, that user is merging their headcanons with canon, they are not stepping back to view Sigma without the lens they have imposed on him. And we see that their interpretation is suffering because of this.
BSD is something that has to be viewed without bias sometimes, because if you ignore the characters you hate or dismiss relationships because you prefer other ones, you are not going to get the full picture.
Some examples of this is that the BSD fandom hates Mori so much, which comes from a fair place of disgust at his actions, but it's to the point that they ignore him entirely, and refuse to acknowledge his existence, which is a terrible decision given that he is one of the smartest, most powerful (in terms of status) and knowledgeable character in BSD.
Another example is that some Soukoku shippers will prioritise Dazai and Chuuya's relationships with one another over other's that are just as important, such as Chuuya and the Flags, or Dazai and Odasaku, which leads to an interpretation of them that makes them seem codependent and isolated from others. Even the inverse happens, where Soukoku antis will refuse to admit that Dazai and Chuuya have a canon, platonic partnership based on trust and years of working together, a bond that is deeply important for both of their characters.
I've found I enjoy BSD more when I look at it from an unbiased lens. Of course you can have favourites and characters you hate, god knows I do (Ace you slimy motherfucker, I'm coming for you and your hairline), but you should allow yourself to explore the entire world, investigate the characters you dislike; you might find yourself liking what's below the surface, acknowledge the relationships that aren't romantic but are still important. Look at the entirety of BSD, because Asagiri is frankly a genius, and his worldbuilding and character development are some of the best and most beautifully crafted examples I've ever seen.
-T
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maximusmaximillian · 1 year
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Why Namor x Shuri doesn’t work from a storytelling standpoint
Before I went and watched Wakanda Forever for the first time last Christmas, I saw so many people talking about how Shuri and Namor should’ve been a romantic couple. So I walked into the movie and for the first half, I could kinda see why some people could come to that conclusion. And then the second half happened and I was genuinely wondering if we saw the same movie. 💀 And while I didn’t (and still don’t) ship them, personally, and was (and still am) very confused as to why some people did (and still do), I wasn’t really bothered by it. Initially. But the more I think about it, the ship makes even less sense when you think about from a story writing perspective.
I will (begrudgingly) give Namor x Shuri shippers one point, Namor and Shuri do have good chemistry. Letitia Wright and Tenoch Huerta do play off each other well. But I would argue that it takes just as much chemistry to play enemies/rivals/antagonistic relationships as it does to play romantic/platonic/positive relationships. Any two characters on screen (on on paper or on stage or any other narrative art form) must have chemistry. Compelling character dynamics are important to tell a good story. Imma call it negative and positive chemistry.
Positive chemistry
Let’s look at Shuri as an example cause she has no canon love interest in the comics or in the movies, so most of this is fan theory.
Shuri and Peter Parker would likely have good chemistry because
- they’re both intelligent so will likely have the same interests
- they’re around the same age so they would likely be able to relate to each other
- they have the same dry sense of humor
- they have the same goal of wanting to defeat the bad guys -eg- Thanos
Whether platonic or romantic, they would make sense as a pairing.
Another pairing post WF we can look at is Riri and Shuri, and they work because
- they’re also both very smart but are often undermined because of their ages
- they have shared trauma and as a result are fiercely protective of one another
- they also have a similar sense of humor
- they both have the same goal of wanting to defeat the Talokanil and especially Namor (He does try to kill both of them. Several times. 💀)
- they literally finish each other’s sentences
Once again, platonic, romantic or even sisterly, it makes sense.
What makes both these pairings work to a degree is the idea of them being equal in some regard. Whether equal in intellect, or age, or race, or any other metric, they clearly both see each other as equal, even with Shuri being “the Crown Princess of an international superpower” and Peter and Riri being “average” civilians. They more or less agree on a common enemy and how to deal with said enemy, with morals and values that more or less align. (Within the context of the world they inhabit.)
Negative chemistry
But Namor and Shuri have what I would call negative chemistry. They do have some things in common which can be where their chemistry stems from, such as
- they are both rulers of powerful kingdoms who love their people and will do anything to protect them
- they both experience great personal loss and therefore are motivated by grief
- the surface world poses a great threat to them and may be exploited for their resources
- they admire each other’s kingdoms (the physical spaces that their people inhabit)
However even with these similarities we see that there are some glaring differences.
- Namor does not view Shuri as an equal, despite their similarities. His line of “you are queen now” showed that he was never willing to conduct to business with Ramonda, likely because she was the only person on the surface world who bested him when she lured him out of Talokan to facilitate Shuri and Riri’s rescue mission. He was simply looking for an excuse to get her out of the picture. Also, Namor’s love only goes as far as his people. Shuri’s love of people goes far beyond Wakanda’s boarders.
- He is reckless with his grief. He is correct in hating the surface world, and in particular white people for the pain they caused his people. But wanting to wage war with the whole world is extreme. Shuri on the other hand, has a better handle on how she externalizes her grief. She recognizes that even though she is angry at T’Challa’s death, the rest of the world doesn’t deserve to feel the extent of her wrath. Even when Namor does kill her mother, she rightfully directs her anger at him. She doesn’t become antagonistic with anyone else or try to take vengeance from anyone else. Sure, she has some outbursts at Nakia and M’baku, but she never really alienates them.
- Namor and the Talokanil, immediately resort to violence and war when they feel a threat from the surface world. But since no one knows they exist, this threat is hypothetical for now. (We know it’s going to happen when they do find out, given the track record of some countries in the world, but not yet.) A direct contrast to Ramonda and Shuri, who in the face of real eminent threats, resorted to peace and showed their aggressors mercy.
- Namor, despite wanting Wakanda’s help with his mission, ultimately doesn’t view Wakanda with anymore sympathy than he does the rest of the world. He has made it clear that he hates the surface world and everyone in it, which includes the Wakandans. I mean, “no love” is literally his name. Wanting to destroy the whole world, funny enough, including other Mayan descendants who were enslaved or colonized, is no different from wanting to wage war on his so called ally, killing half of them and then killing their queen. He never liked or respected them as people. That was not going to change with Shuri.
It’s also another reason why he killed Ramonda with no hesitation despite knowing what he knew about Shuri. It would be easy to forgive him if he had never met Shuri. Then Ramonda would simply remain as the nameless, faceless monarch of a powerful country. But the fact that Shuri opened up to him about the grief she was already carrying, only to inflict more pain, makes his crimes way more egregious. He knew Shuri on a somewhat personal level and still chose to kill the queen. Knowing she was her mother. It goes back to the point of him never seeing Shuri as human or recognizing her feelings as valid. All he wanted to do was push her to the extremes of grief so she would become reckless like he was. It’s clear that Namor doesn’t see Shuri as an equal. Which means that any positive development that would happen between the two would take a long time to properly write.
I’m sure someone out there has come up with better terms than “positive and negative chemistry” in a screenwriting book somewhere, but I was just thinking about different character dynamics and how they work. Many compelling relationships have that element of chemistry. For example, in the first Black Panther, T’Challa and Shuri bounce well off of each other. Positive chemistry. It’s also why Killmonger makes the perfect antagonist to T’Challa. Negative chemistry. It’s all chemistry that translates differently. Batman and Joker. Superman and Lex Luthor. Thanos and the Avengers. Team Dynamics within the Avengers. Thor and Loki. The Guardians of the Galaxy. And so many more. It’s all different types of chemistry. So yes, Namor and Shuri are arguably both great characters with complex motivations, and together, do have stellar chemistry, but is it chemistry that produces romance? I don’t think so.
In conclusion, yes, ship who you want (even when it makes no sense), these are fictional characters (who represent real world dynamics), it’s just for fun (how?), etc. but looking at it from the perspective of a storyteller, the character dynamics would not make it work. If you write a story with two such characters and they end up in love, it wouldn’t make sense.
(These are just the 3 am thoughts of a sleep deprived college student 😀)
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rowanwithaz · 7 months
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"Can't People (of the same gender) Just Be Friends Anymore? "
This is gonna be a fun one.
I kinda never went over this in my, "Deku Is Straight" post,and I guess it is a little different; but it's still a very popular argument against just queer ships in general. So,I will bring up how queer shippers get treated in most fandoms and just some problems in the media when it comes to representation; but it will mostly be about GreeNade and BNHA.
(⚠This post is not supposed to be hating on any one! It's absolutely fine if people view certain relationships as platonic,but what's not okay is having double standards and being a godamned hypocrite about it. This is just addressing issues that seem to pop up mainly against the queer shipping communities; not some kind of hate post. I encourage everyone to try and have an open mind and to try and be respectful of everyone's opinions.And as usual: as long as something is legal,ship away!⚠)
Broship
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If you could not tell the ones on the top are taking about this scene:
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And,from what I'm reading,they didn't get it. Bakugo didn't do it for "humanity" he didn't do it because Izuku is just a good friend of his. His.Body.Moved.On.Its.Own. He wanted to protect Izuku so badly that his body made him do it. He also copied Izuku,like when Izuku's body moved in its own...? Y'know,like,the scientifically proven thing you do when you love someone in a romantic way?
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(*Also,when Izuku does this for Ochaco he second guesses himself and forces himself to do it unlike with Kacchan. Just found that interesting; and Izuku even says "it wasn't like last time" because he had to force himself to move. His thoughts also get cut off before he can come to a conclusion...hmmm,interesting.*)
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Which Izuku has done this about a million times and even admits to it,
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but chapter 285 is where Bakugo mirrors Izuku(he has,I believe in some other moments in the manga,I can't remember for sure; but this is the chapter it's most apparent in.) ,he also does the analyzing thing Izuku does.
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Okay,now that is the significance (there is so much more that makes it so beautiful but that was just some of the quick stuff) So,can we really call this "friendship" ? Honestly,I guess,if you don't know anything about the relationship prior to this scene...actually no that's wrong. My Aunt saw this scene and asked if they were canon,she had not known anything about bnha/mha at the time. And when I gave context she was like, "so they're gay,?"
So, yeah. That scene even with no context; looks like someone dying for the person they love. But,perspective.
Here's the thing I'm addressing in this post. It isn't, "Guys,they don't do this for their other friends and they mirror each other on accident and the author himself doesn't refer to them as friends,ect,ect." There is too much that supports them being romantically interested in each other,but that's not the point. The whole "Friendship is dead,isn't it?" because people can see two dudes/girls liking each other romantically is.
And that moves us to the next section of this post.
Double Standards
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The only time when someone says something like this Is when it's between people of the same gender. They aren't mad at people for shipping Momo with Izuku because they're just friends,that's okay because...don't tell anyone this is a secret antis have...they don't care as long as it's straight.
If it's queer it's "Friendship dead :(" but if it's someone like Melissa it's okay. It's honestly so...pathetic.
"Boy and boy have to be friend or my life is over 😠" or "Gal Pals or my life is RUINED 😨" Like, I have never seen someone get mad about straight ships like this. Honey,if someone said, "WHY can't a guy and girl just be friends for once?" Everyone would laugh in their face. Which is actually something I wish was normalized more. Once I had a dude friend and my whole family made fun of us and I literally cried because I had just figured out I liked girls a lot more than boys and I was having this thing pushed on me. That does not happen with gay people,actually get this,being called gay is still used as an insult.
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(*That first one though...Like do they not know there are several canon trans characters and bisexual characters in bnha? And the Izuchako drawing 💀 I cried I was laughing so hard the first time I saw it.*)
If you know about the sonic idw comics,there are these two characters Whisper and Tangle. People instantly started shipping them because they were so cute with each other,but other people were mad because "two girls just can't be friends anymore" and it pretty much happens in every show that isn't LGBTQ+ centric.
Because people aren't going to read/watch Heartstopper and go, "Uh,these guys are straight why do you keep shipping them?" And as much as I love that we are getting stories and shows all about the queer experience, it does still piss me off that if it isn't something like a queer romance drama and or comedy people get mad at queer people for being in other things. People will be like, "You have shows that are centered around being queer,stop bringing it into our stuff," and it's exhausting. Like,there are billions of T.V shows,moves,books,comics,ect,that have nothing to do with a romance centered plot but they throw in this random hetro relationship that doesn't add to the characters or plot.
And that's one of the reasons I love BloodBubbles and GreNade,they add to the characters and parallel the story into their dynamics. I think all romance in stories should be like that. If a romantic relationship doesn't add anything but a little *smooch* *smooch* then it is ultimately useless. I understand if people like the *smooch* *smooches* but don't act like the relationship is well developed and needed. With a romance centered plot the romance is obviously needed. But does it mean it's good? Hell no. Most romantic movies have the characters fall in love in a week. That's just my opinion though.
Conclusion:
Stop using the "can't two people of the same sex/gender be friends anymore" argument,it just shows how much you do not know about queer people/relationships or just relationships in general. Queer people should be able to be represented in (God forbid) a Shonen and just media in general that isn't just a romance show. Everyone has different thoughts,opinions,and experiences,that shapes them into having a different perspective on things; but just because they have a different perspective doesn't mean it can disprove a plantain fact: Straight people have representation. Straight people do not need to fight for it either. So,stop fighting to be oppressed so badly.
Sorry to get so serious in the end...here this might lighten the mood!
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This is the angle number for 285! The chapter Bakugo's body moved on its own. I find the angle number being about kindness very interesting. :)
That worked right? Also,I like doing the conclusion in a bigger font,so I'll probably be doing that from now on when I'm wrapping my posts up.
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nightswithkookmin · 11 months
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Hey it's good to write to you again 💖love your sense of humour it always hype me😄😄
I just went to Yoongi's concert, I'm telling it's magical, loud and fun. What made me even more excited is because I was traveling with my friend whom we just renewed our friendship that was broken because of misunderstandings, I introduced her to bts and as we were watching their content she suddenly said she like jikook, and in my mind I thought she is talking about them in a platonic way so when she elaborated she said she can see when people are fucking each other😁😂 I laughed then I showed her your blog she's been reading it saying you are very blunt😂😅 Anyway few day after she came and asked me if taehyung used to date Jimin or if tae has a crush on Jimin because she noticed at times tae would look at Jimin's lips and all, I said I thought the same at first. Do you think v had a crush on Jimin, Is that why Jungkook when it comes to yoongi, Rm and tae he needs to clarify that it is friendship turning down every ship moment that can be made? Because I noticed he has no problem with Jimin or jihope moments but always with the others he interrupts them.
Aahh vmin vmin vmin- the ship that could if only they would
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No one knows for sure what his thing was with Jimin. It was easier to label it as a crush for kicks and giggles back then. But as grown adults that they are now its a little bit 🥴
I mean sometimes the members themselves do admit some of the things they do and say is a bit fruity 🤷🏾
With Jungkook isn't it double standards for him to feel the need to go out of his way to demystify Jimin's ships while his own ships hang in the gay balance?
Minimoni are friends he says but Namjoon and I are thirsting over eachother's bodies- boys scouts honor
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Yoongi and Jimin are laughable he snorts but hey what's that in between Jins legs. time to jiggle jiggle
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He's made not letting Jimin's ships breath his entire personality and instead of Jimin whooping his ass as he should he's 'oh Jungkookie" melting away at him
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Not to say Jm enjoys it entirely cos clearly it gets a bit too much for him sometimes🥲
This 'double standards' is something I hear most teen same sex couples complain of so I find it interesting to see these things play out between them.
And it's definitely interesting how we the fans respond to this as well. We will praise Jungkook for being territorial but let Jimin exhibit a similar territorial streak and suddenly it's he's clingy, he's an attention seeker, and he acts like he owns Jungkook.
I'll take it a notch further and analyze this in light of Tae's reaction to this territorial behavior in both of them. If Jungkook acts territorial over Jimin with Tae, Tae backs away, acts like he's gonna cry most times and only puts up a fight on few occasions but should JM try to be territorial over Jungkook, Tae would square up with him more often than not🥴
Then there's Namjoon who used to back down and show some respect for the Maknae's feelings- and then suddenly doesn't care anymore. He legit said,
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I digress.
Sigh. Am I the only one missing Jin? Where's that one Taejin shipper please send me Taejin gifs😭😭😭😭
Tae can be intense and he's able to connect to people and things on a very deep emotional almost spiritual level. When he was young he used to desire this same level of intensity from the people around him often leading to him coming across as not having emotional boundaries. I don't know much about him personally, but I can deduce from certain things he says and does that he used to get this thrown in his face a lot.
This lack of emotional boundaries is what is often misconstrued as a crush by some of us.
But I think he just wants to hold hands on the pier with Jimin and discuss their deep deep affections for one another while the sun gradually set over the water
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It doesn't make them gay- may be lesbians for sure but not gay😭
And while Jimin equally wants a friendship like that and so reciprocate with Tae- he better not try that shit on Jungkook.
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You're gonna caress Jungkook's hands in the dime light, over soft music, while whispering to him how much emotionally attached you are to him- better be prepared to have his children while you're at it
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So to answer your question, I think Jungkook knows the difference between what's an unconventional quirky friendship and what's blatantly Gay.
And most of the time when he's reacting to these scenarios he's simply expressing his discomfort with the latter.
The day Jungkook goes cross eyed on Vmin is the day you know for sure those two are crossing some serious boundaries Friends shouldn't cross. Other than that I don't think he minds- nor should he.
The only reason he should be worried at all would be if Jimin is emotionally bonding with Tae and not JK. As it stands, that's not the case.
Minimoni are not Vmin. They are not the quirky unconventional same sex friends that Vmin are. So yea, if they start touching up on eachother and if Namjoon- NAMJOON- KIM NAMJOON- starts flirting and flashing dimples at Jimin he has every reason to be worried. I TOO WILL BE UNCOMFORTABLE AND I'M NOT EVEN DATING JIMIN.
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THIS KIM NAMJOON????
Smart intelligent successful TALL KIM NAMJOON?
Look, Jungkook is even better than me. I wouldn't let my girlfriend be friends with a KIM NAMJOON. Are you kidding?! I would follow them everywhere and put surveillance on them. Reinforce social distancing rules. 5 ft apart always and never alone in one room.
You think ill let my girlfriend be friends with an Rm, Yoongi, Jk you're mad. And then they'll just tell you casually, hey babe i'm gonna hang out at Rm's place- eh? Excuse me?! PARDON!
Hanging out doing what exactly cos I know yall be not talking about your feelings with them. PRAY TELL WHAT EXACTLY YALL BE HANGING OUT FOR?
I mean I'm not threatened by Yoongi per se but Agust D? Child no. No. No no no no no. NO.
Personally I don't think Jimin is in any way romantically interested in anyone in BTS other than Jk. I will fight him on this if he denies it🤧
But doesn't mean certain people in the band don't- sexually excite him beside JK. He's a rather healthy young adventurous spirited gentleman - with raging fiery hormones JK tries to keep under control
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*Insert JK screaming I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS LEVEL OF HOTTNESS🤣
If your boyfriend had sexy sultry eyes and a Jawline that looks straight out of a hentai anime imagining you would want to police him around too.
And look, Daddy is not wood.
Sticks and stones may break his bones but dare I say, tall chiseled 8 inch biggo excites him😝
I suppose curvy wide hips big booty breastina does it for him too😭😭😭😭😭
I think he finds Namjoon and Jk's physique ideal and attractive as men. And if he's dating Jk then I see how that would be a problem for Jk.
For Suga, I think it's more of how Suga treats Jimin. He treats JM like someone would treat someone they loved. Jimin admires Suga a lot. For his intellect, for his passion- JM has a tattoo of Suga's words on his body. Let that sink in and then put yourself in JK's shoes.
Jimin may be evasive but when he admires someone he praises them a lot. He praises their physique ifm he finds that ideal or attractive or intellect if he admires their ingenuity. He keeps praising and admiring JK. He keeps admiring Namjoon for more than his physique- come to think of it he's shown considerable admiration for Suga, RM and Jk more so than the others.
The only time I've seen him admire V in any way sus is when he said Tae has a huge shlong. I suppose that's enough reason for anyone to Stan V😭 If I hadn't seen it myself I would have said my man's exaggerating but that thing is humongous😭😭😭😭
Moving on from V's shlong,
Between V and Jimin I frankly don't recall who influenced who. We know Jimin today to be the most emotionally vulnerable one who's able to connect emotionally with others but if memory serves me right, that used to be V🤔
He's the one most of the members felt emotionally honest with and comfortable with and the one they seem to suggest helped them gain confidence to be themselves emotionally.
I don't know. Sometimes I feel JM and V are the same person. Different sides of the same coin. Their soul mate shtick makes sense to me.
Talking of soulmates, I find it interesting Tae Talking about twin flames in his new song May be. He said he would release it in 10yrs but I'm itching to hear the whole thing NOW. A. It's a really deep good song. The lyrics are fire, the genre is on point
You told me you are my twin flame, Our colors shimmer the same, when the world is cold in the winter, we'll melt each other away.
I have to praise him for the emotional depth most of his sings have- it's everything I desire in a song. A song that speaks to the human condition and evoke such strong emotions and is very soulful. Bravo mate.
But isn't it interesting how he's switched from soulmate to twin flames and yet still evoke the same imageries of the moon the way he's done when writing songs inspired by Jimin?
Not only is his dick massive his voice is massive too😭
Sorry what was your question?
Ah, JK interrupting JMs ships.
I don't know what to tell ya. He's a hater🤣🤣🤣🤣
You should watch him finding all the excuses in the world as to why JM shouldn't collaborate with the members on a song but somehow had no objection when JM said he'd make a song with him😭😭😭😭
You know when he was younger and he was asked whom he would entrust his sister to out of the group he chose himself? He couldn't chose anyone even when most of them chose Jimin💀
That was his sister. Now imagine his partner 🤣
There's no over analyzing this. I think it's just his personality. And he's been consistent with it. Remember the Perilla leaf debate?
Personally I think some members deliberately avoided answering the question- or answered it the way they did bcos of Jungkook 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣
When Tae said let's take turns I knew Jk was gonna throw a bomb and Jimin was gonna stutter 😭😭😭😭
And of course Namjoon and Suga will say they don't care- of course 😌
Cos if they did care then Jungkook would be vindicated won't he🤣
Ahhh Jimin- JM and his tiny, but why should it even matter if you're eating how would you even notice these things 🥺🥺🥺🥺
Boy's been traumatized straddling the line between the hyungs and the Maknae trying to explain to JK relax we are not flirting, relax he grabbed my balls don't mean I'm cheating. Meanwhile all JK seeing is them walking down the aisle in rainbow suits🤧
If everything we've been screaming on ship street wasn't making things clear, it's obvious from this clip alone the diverse views on boundaries that exist in the group.
It's clear, as I've been saying, JK has boundaries. Boundaries some members think is childish and ridiculous and so do not respect or adhere to which used to be a major cause of tensions within the group.
And for Tae to point out in support of Jungkook that sharing a chopstick or whatever those Perilla leaves were meant to signify was a sign of crossing boundaries should answer my question about him backing down when JK instills boundaries over JM with him but not so much when JM tries to instill boundaries with him.
It's double standard on Jms part and Tae is not the one. Do unto Jk what you want done unto you. If you think JK is childish for trying to instil boundaries with your friends what gives you the right to instill boundaries over JKs friends? Gotta love him. He's a no nonsense sort of person.
Now, we also understand why Namjoon stopped respecting JK's boundaries. It goes both ways.
When I tell you BTS has more drama and is better than the Kardashians whew🤭
Jungkook was the most gaslit member of the group. They constantly made him out to be this unreasonable possessive dude who couldn't keep his relationship a secret. Personally, I don't think a person's boundaries have to be negotiable. It's not something you negotiate on with them. And ridiculing them and calling their boundaries unreasonable and childish speaks to your own inability to take no for an answer which is generally toxic.
It's a good thing JM made his emancipation proclamation himself cos JKV and I were gonna have to break him free from the mold.
Okay bye I'm gonna watch it and akeke to myself again
Oh wait, your friend. I should say something nice- ho ho ho ho ha ha ha ha may the force be with you💜
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spifflocated · 9 months
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I think, as a Vetinari/Drumknott shipper, The Last Hero has the potential to be the most beautifully heartbreaking book for them in the whole Discworld, despite the fact that Drumknott is never even named in it.
Some spoilers under the cut, though the biggest spoiler is probably that the Discworld series continues afterwards...
The Last Hero follows not long after the Truth (my best guess at the timeline puts it somewhat arbitrarily in the late summer of the same year, not long after Night Watch/ Thief of Time), where Rufus demonstrates the extent of his faith in Vetinari. By the end of the book, their trust in each other is apparent- Drumknott has protected Vetinari's reputation, and Vetinari brings Drumknott with him to The Times' offices, arguably simply as a companion. We see the beginnings of the two of them working together as a unit, in the way which is so much fun to read in Going Postal.
And then The Last Hero arrives, and Vetinari finds himself having to organise an effort to save the world, because essentially no one else can be trusted to get all of the different parties to work together well enough to get things done. And, because the planning and preparation will have to carry on during the sea journey to get there, he has to leave the city. It's a simple choice- if he doesn't go, and it doesn't work, there won't be a city. But if he does go, he's leaving the city at a time of crisis under a temporary governance. And even if the mission succeeds, there's no guarantee that Vetinari will make it back to Ankh Morpork. Worse things, as they say, happen at sea.
Drumknott isn't mentioned in TLH, so it's a fair assumption that he stays in the city. Which brings us to my personal headcanon: Vimes and the guild council are nominally in charge, but essentially Vetinari has left his beloved city in Drumknott's care. Which is a frankly remarkable show of trust, and is one of the reasons I like to envision them established in whatever type of relationship (platonic or not) you prefer to see them in by this point.
And then, think of it from Rufus's perspective. This is not the first time he has had to stay at home while Vetinari sets out on an uncertain mission. In Jingo, Rufus seemed to simply keep his head down- Lord Rust had taken over, after all. But now, he has to wait, and try to stop the city falling into chaos as word spreads of the potential end of the world, and hope against hope that Vetinari will come back to him. He has to stay, and do what he can, and Vetinari has to go. They have to face the end of the world apart, knowing that there is no other choice, because their loyalty is to each other but their duty is to the city. Sometimes I think of Rufus, alone at night, exhausted after a day of fighting fires but unable to sleep with worry for Vetinari, and with no news of if the mission is going to plan, or if it has proved hopeless and the world will end, and they'll never see each other again. And for a man who lives at the centre of Vetinari's web of information to suddenly have no news and no ability to change the outcome, it must have been so hard.
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