#sandman meta

[writing-for-life]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN DREAM'S HAIR USED TO BE WHITE!! oh my god. i just saw your post about killala and i have now perished. thanks for breaking my heart.

but also hi!! i'm relatively new to the fandom and it's a great place to be. i haven't finished reading all the comics yet but i'm curious to know:

what do you think are the main differences between TV!Dream and Comics!Dream? i've heard so many people claiming that he is incapable of changing, for instance, and though the show does convey his overall rigidity pretty well, i'm not getting the vibe that he's immutable.

also!! it's clear that he feels a lot. which is always funny to me when the corinthian is like yo, try this and maybe you'll feel something for a change but like. he does!!! or i get the impression that he does. he probably feels too much if anything?? all of it simmering just beneath the surface, barely contained. how would you personally analyze his relationship with his own emotions?

i hope all of this is coherent enough for you to answer lmao, i saw your post about enjoying being asked sandman questions two seconds after i woke up and barged into your inbox. hope you have a lovely day!

Thanks so much for the ask, and welcome if you’re new(ish) to the fandom! 🤗

I’m sorry I broke your heart—much more heartbreak to come I fear if you haven’t read the comics yet, so I’ll try to keep this as spoiler-free as possible.

I am one of those people who believes the differences between comics!Dream and show!Dream are actually not as big as they are made out to be where it matters, and you will definitely find people who disagree. At the end of the day, we all read it through our own lens and will never be fully objective about it.

The main difference I see is that they filed off the rough edges of the comics a bit to make a new audience sympathise more. It’s very hard to do that with a character who is basically in full arsehole mode for most of the first 40 issues or so, and even then only slowly begins to come out of it (although we can obviously see glimmers of what lies below the surface at the beginning of the comics, too, but it’s far more subtle than in the show). I’ve worked in musical theatre for a over decade of my life and understand a bit about bringing the written word to stage/screen, and some things simply don’t translate well from book to stage/screen, and you have to change it. So my personal opinion is we get a more sympathetic Morpheus and certain changes so the audience can do exactly that—sympathise off the bat. You will lose an audience pretty quickly if they don’t care about the protagonist and the universe he moves in, and you can’t be as nuanced about it as you can be in a written work. We’re talking about streaming services thinking about profits here, even if people don’t want to hear it.

Also: The more you sympathise with a character, the deeper the emotional investment and the more you feel, even if it hurts.

Having said this, I don’t think Morpheus is incapable of change, and I never got where that idea comes from. His biggest flaw is that he believes he cannot change (and even he has moments when he admits he might have). In the introduction to Endless Nights, Neil Gaiman says that he was once asked to describe The Sandman in twenty-five words or less, and famously, it was this (you might have heard it):

“The Lord of Dreams learns that one must change or die, and makes his decision.”

And I think some people might have wrongly taken that for an either/or thing. I don’t want to say too much at this point because I don’t know how much you know (if you’d like spoilers or already know how it ends, let me know, I’ll happily expand on it). Only so much:

He is capable of change, also in the comics. Very obviously so. But just like he denies he has his own story (which also isn’t true), he denies he can change. Or at least he thinks he perhaps cannot change enough (it’s actually hard to write about this without giving everything away, help! 🙈).

As for his feelings: He does feel, but again, it is something he pushes down and will deny himself. Until it bursts to the surface and breaks through, and when that happens, it’s usually with, well, let’s say varying results, and that’s putting it mildly. Personally, I’d say he has problems relating to his feelings, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel. Quite the opposite in my view. He holds the collective unconscious—all unprocessed feelings and whatever else floats around in that collective mess, and it’s exactly what he says to the Corinthian in that famous scene: he needs to keep a lid on it and keep that lid firmly closed so all of it doesn’t consume him. But that also means denying himself the feelings that are linked to his own personhood (if you want to call it that). There’s Dream of the Endless, and then there’s Morpheus. And while they’re one and the same and inseparable, Morpheus is also the “point of view”. The character, the person, if you will. And deep down, he craves that personhood so badly. Out of all the Endless, he is the only one who basically collects names because they mean having something beyond his function, which is also mirrored in what he tells Death in “The Sound of her Wings”: he wants something more. He is the only one whose realm is populated with sentient beings (yes, I know Despair has rats, but I think you get my drift). He is desperately lonely and struggles with it. He seeks connection yet denies it to himself. That’s not someone who doesn’t feel.

I don’t know if this answers your questions at all—I was doing the wild “spoiler-free” dance 🤣 But please let me know if you want me to go a bit deeper, I love talking about this stuff.

You can also have a look at my metas if you haven’t already. The headers pretty much explain what they’re about and what spoiler-level to expect, but none of them are truly spoiler-free I guess:

Again, thanks so much for encroaching on my inbox, and feel free to follow up if anything was left unanswered.

@dreamaturgy ask answered

[avelera]

Thinking about Hob Gadling in 1589, or rather in the decades leading up to 1589 when we see him as Sir Robert Gadlen

Thinking about how he went north, twice, to come back as his own son, presumably to build the myth of the Gadlen family. Before that, as a soldier, a brigand, and a tradesman in printing, he probably didn't have enough money to need to "leave it" to a son, because he'd had no real assets. No houses, no businesses, nothing besides his weapons and armor, the proverbial clothes on his back, and what spoils of war could be carried with him.

But to make money you have to spend it, you have to have it, you have to invest it. 1389, the year of Hob gaining immortality, corresponds to the birth year of Cosimo de' Medici, the man who would establish the great banking dynasty of Florence, Italy. I note this because this transformation in Europe corresponds with Hob's progress through immortality and rather roughly corresponds to when, as I see it, he would have moved from an individual soldier of fortune to make his living to needing some sort of continuity of identity if he was going to move beyond that.

In this instance, pretending to be his own son (or relative) would be a necessity to inherit his own wealth so he could carry it forward for the next 10-30 years, before he'd have to reinvent himself again. The money to buy a knighthood would be the work of generations.

I'm thinking about Hob building himself up from being a printer's apprentice (because printing was so new a trade that it was probably one of the few where he could get in as a man perpetually in his 30s, most apprenticeships would require you to begin as a child) to gaining his knighthood. By his own admission of faking his death twice by 1589, he'd be Robert Gadlen the Third, possibly the Fourth (not that this was a naming convention back then for commoners, but more to illustrate where 1589 Hob stood in the line of his own fictional family inheritance).

The first half of the 1500s in England under Henry VIII still saw a predominance of nobility holding the lion's share of power, but it did see something of a shift where you had noteworthy men rise to great heights from common origin, like Thomas Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell (yes, I'm rewatching Wolf Hall, why do you ask?).

But now to the point that got me thinking about this: imagine Hob in the 1500s. At the beginning of the century he is the first of his name, building his fortune. Robert Gadlen, who made his money in the printing business then invested it, through a great stroke of luck in to the powers-that-would-be that century: the Tudor shipyards. Hob building himself from very nearly nothing, peasant stock, nothing more than a soldier and a brigand before that. It's still grubby to build oneself up from trade, better to have been born to wealth of course, this isn't American Yankeedom and we're before the Puritans, where showing one's hard work was a virtue rather than an ugly necessity of the common people. But Hob still did it, with his own hands.

Imagining Robert Gadlen II, and Robert Gadlen III, the "scion" of a family on the rise, sniffing around the edges of the Tudor court, eventually finding his way in, having enough gold to buy himself a knighthood.

Imagining Robert Gadlen, meeting one of those common men in the service of Henry VIII, noting with chagrin their own common birth, the sons of blacksmiths and butchers, unlike Sir Robert, whose father was a man of means who left a growing fortune to his son.

And I can't help but imagine Hob smiling, a little slyly because he did it, he slipped passed the censors, no one knows of the fact he was born to peasant stock almost 200 years ago, and no one ever will. As far as anyone knows, he was born wealthy, a gentleman in the rising social consciousness that all it takes to be a gentleman is to have the money to act as one.

But I can't help but wonder if that smile would be just a little uncomfortable, too. Because no one will ever know. No one will ever know that Sir Robert Gadlen didn't inherit his money, that he's not some child of nepotism and generational wealth who has never worked and never starved. He is the founder of his own family, he built it himself and with each generation that goes by he has to leave more and more of that story behind him. Except with Dream.

[hardly-an-escape]

just thinking about Hob and Dream and acts of service as a love language and how Hob would react as Dream gradually reveals more details about just how horrifying his imprisonment was…

Hob realizing exactly how long it’s been since Dream was touched by another person and deliberately seeking out opportunities to touch him in casual and gentle (and plausibly deniable) ways. passing him a mug of tea and just briefly cupping the back of his wrist. a gentle hand on his shoulder as he points at something. Hob’s knee against Dream’s under the table or his toes tucked under Dream’s leg on the couch. after a while he starts hugging Dream hello and goodbye and each hug lasts a fraction of a second longer than the last.

Hob makes a random comment about breathing and Dream mentions that the glass sphere was basically airtight - mentions it in an offhand, ‘it didn’t really matter because I don’t technically need to breathe anyway’ kind of way - but it matters to Hob. so wherever they are he starts making sure there’s a window cracked or a door propped open so Dream can feel fresh air.

Hob, thinking about how cold and hard glass is, starts offering Dream his coziest sweaters and softest, most worn-in t shirts and pajama pants. fleece blankets and fluffy pillows multiply in his flat like there’s an infestation. he considers buying a four poster bed with curtains, like in the olden days, in case Dream ever wants to sleep with him take a nap.

Hob just doing everything he can to fill Dream’s time in the waking world with pleasant sensations. beeswax candles and delicious cooking smells. there’s always music playing on his stereo when Dream is over. fresh colorful flowers on the coffee table every week (sometimes he makes Dream come along to the farmers market and pick them out).

and Dream knows what he’s doing, of course, because subtlety is not Hob Gadling’s middle name, and at first it almost offends him, and then it amuses him, and finally it unlocks something inside him - because he comes to understand that Hob is not trying to fix him; he’s trying to fill in the holes that Burgess drilled in him with something new, something warm and kind.

and one fall afternoon they’re coming back from the farmers market with flowers and this spicy chili oil Hob has been wanting to try, and it’s raining so they’re crowded under one umbrella and Hob’s shoulder is pressed warm against Dream’s, and Hob is extolling the virtues of a hot bath on a chilly day. and they come inside and shed their wet jackets (because it was a rather small umbrella) and Hob immediately gets a fluffy towel to wrap around Dream’s shoulders.

and Dream just can’t help it anymore, he’s in this space that has been filled with soft, warm things for him and he’s looking into Hob’s soft, warm eyes which are brimming with love for him and he leans in and kisses him. and Hob’s mouth is as soft and warm as his eyes. and the last vestige of that cold glass sphere that was lodged under Dream’s ribs cracks and dissolves under the warmth of Hob’s care.

and it turns out Hob didn’t need to get a four poster bed after all because his bog standard ikea one serves its purpose just fine.

[orionsangel86]

Hob Gadling - A Queer Romantic?

I have been listening to The World's End chapters of The Sandman on Audible lately and just finished Hob's Leviathan. I didn't pay this story much attention when I first read the comic, as I tended to read through the stories quickly and put more focus into the stories where Dream had a larger role. But one of the reasons I like listening to the Audible book is because it allows me to absorb each story more thoroughly and take my time thinking about each one and the (usually multiple) meanings behind them.

Hob Gadling is a character that fandom has fallen in love with. I think this is clear to anyone that takes even a partial glance at Sandman fandom. This isn't a criticism - Ferdie's performance as Hob in the Netflix show has done wonders for Hob's character. He has made his version of Hob very easy to fall in love with!

But the truth is that in The Sandman comics, Hob is a minor character who we only get to know very little about. The story Hob's Leviathan appears in The Worlds End Sandman book. We only meet him twice before this, once in The Doll's House, where we are introduced to him in Men of Good Fortune, and again in Season of Mists when Dream comes to let him know that he may miss their next meeting. In both these issues, Hob is introduced via the narrator, and therefore I like to think that we are given a fairly honest representation of the kind of person he is. We watch him grow and learn throughout the centuries in MoGF, but one of the major takeaways from this I believe is that he tends to always be on the wrong side of history. He makes bad choices and can be a bit narrow minded. He is rude and selfish and also rather self-absorbed. I actually think that the performance of the voice actor who plays Hob in the Audible book emphasises these character flaws making him even more unlikeable in many ways, though I am aware that this could just be my own experience and opinion.

But Hob's Leviathan takes a different view of Hob. Literally. The narrator of this story is a young boy of 16 called Jim. Jim met Hob on a ship travelling from Bombay to Liverpool in 1914. Jim was working on the ship as a cabin boy and Hob had bought his passage back to England - though it is revealled at the end of the story that Hob actually owned the ship they were travelling on. It is clear that at this point in time, Hob is extremely wealthy.

Jim attends to Hob throughout the journey, and grows very fond of him. In Jim's tale, Hob is a good man, who is kind and thoughtful and cares about others. He saves the life of a stowaway (who turns out to be another immortal). He is shown to be patient, and funny, and very intelligent. Jim waxes poetic about how smart Hob is, and how much he impressed him. It is particularly clear in the Audible book that Jim is taken with Hob, to the point that it could arguably be a crush.

It is fascinating how much more likeable Hob is when narrated from the viewpoint of someone with a crush on him, whether this story is exaggerated through rose tinted glasses is of course something to consider. All the tales in World's End are just that, tales. There is a constant undercurrent of exaggeration and make believe to them where even the other patrons of the inn question elements to each of the stories. We are not supposed to take these stories as absolute fact, rather they are supposed to reveal to us more about the narrators as well as their own experiences existing in this magical and strange world.

When it is revealled that Jim is actually a girl called Peggy in disguise so they can get work on the ships, the quite obvious crush makes more sense to a heteronormative audience, but what I particularly like about this story is its queer potential. See in the comic, it isn't really clarified if Jim goes by Jim because they feel more themselves as a boy, rather than a girl, or if they are disguising themself as a boy just to get work as a means to an end. I would argue that the latter is the more obvious interpretation. Jim tells the other World's End patrons that they are getting too old to keep up the disguise and will eventually have to stop working in shipping, and that when that happens, they will take on a new name, a new identity and do something else, but that for now, the patrons can keep calling them Jim.

*for a lack of clarity around the point in the comic, I am going to use gender neutral pronouns for Jim going forward*

Now from Hob's POV, he figured out that Jim was a girl, and they talk about it briefly along with the sea serpent they saw. I think that at this point, Hob is impressively progressive compared to the previous times we have met him. Now whether or not this is biased storytelling from someone who has a crush on him remains to be seen, but if we take Jim's word as truth, not only is 1914 Hob a fair and honest man who is willing to pay the way of a stowaway and fully respect the secrets of a young girl disguised as a boy so they can work on ships, but he's also totally comfortable flirting with them.

I like that he calls Jim the "handsome cabin boy". I like that this version of Hob, whether real or an exaggeration skewed by Jim's feelings for him, respects Jim's identity. Jim may be a girl in disguise, but Hob doesnt call her pretty, he calls him handsome.

It's all just a bit subtly queer and I like that for Hob (But then I would do, I'm a Dreamling shipper HA)

When Jim finishes their story, they state that they didn't see Hob again after that, but the comics later do give us a possible outcome to Jim's story...

We next see Hob in The Kindly Ones where he is mourning the death of his girlfriend Audrey. He briefly reveals that Audrey was the first person he had loved since Peggy, who was his lover until her death during the Blitz. Whilst it isn't made clear that Hob's lover Peggy is the same Jim that we meet in World's End, it is a bit too much of a coincidence. The timing adds up. If Jim was 16 in 1914, they'd be in their early 40s during the Blitz. Hob remains forever in his early 30s so I'd say its a safe bet that Jim eventually found Hob again and they were together. Hob loved them enough that he wasn't with anyone again until Audrey in the 80s. That's 50 years worth of mourning. A long time not to be with anyone, even for an immortal.

It's funny because we know so little about Hob, but one thing that I have seen commented on here a lot is that comic Hob is deemed to be as Straight as an arrow. Now I admit that the voice actor in the Audible book plays him very straight, but that is still only one interpretation.

All this is to say that I am fascinated with how the Netflix show will adapt this, since Hob in the show already comes across much kinder and more selfless than his comic counterpart. He already has an entire fandom viewing him as queer, and the comics certainly don't outright shut down such interpretations. There are moments in the comics that you have to wonder on. He does call Jim handsome rather than pretty, and when he talks to Audrey's grave he mentions his wives and loves as separate groups. He talks about finding it easy to get sex if you want it, and he talks about it in generally gender neutral terms. In Sunday Mourning Gwen reveals that she thought he was gay when she first met him, though her reasonings were that he knew so many dead people (a dark reminder that these comics were published at the height of the Aids epidemic). He reacts very badly to the news of Morpheus' death. He states on several occassions just how much he liked Morpheus, and he is one of the few people to wake up from the Wake with tears running down his cheeks. I would arguably state that its between Hob and Matthew as to who had the worst reaction to Morpheus' death, showing just how much both Hob and Matthew cared about him, and placing Hob on par with Matthew in the comics is a big deal. He seriously considers accepting Death's gift when she offers it, simply because Morpheus is dead. He doesn't, because at the end of the day, its just not in his nature to do so, and given he then dreams of Morpheus, I like to think that it was a test, that he passed.

When it comes to how the show will adapt all this, I genuinely think it will take a new approach with Jim/Peggy. I think they will be either a trans man, or at least non binary. But I think having Jim be a trans man is the better option. In the comics, Jim's tale is only very subtly queer, Jim clearly likes being Jim, but it seems like its a means to an end, a convenience in order to get work on the ships, rather than being something that is core to Jim's feelings on their gender. Besides, if we assume that Jim is indeed the Peggy Hob talks about in The Kindly Ones, then we know that Jim goes back to being Peggy when they get older and apparently continues living as a woman whilst they are with Hob, otherwise I doubt Hob would have referred to one of his greatest loves by a name they themselves rejected and only used she/her pronouns when talking about them. Nevertheless there is no reason for the show to take this approach, and if they DO decide that Jim should be a trans man, then their relationship with Hob is canonically a queer one. Trans men are men and if one of Hob's greatest loves is a trans man, then Hob is a queer man himself. I genuinely believe the show will take this route and I can't wait to see it.

Going back to my point about narrators bias, if MoGF, SoM, tKO, and TW are all narrated by a neutral third party, then this must be the true Hob. A not overly likeable rather selfish man. He has his good points, and he has certainly grown and changed over the centuries, and carries a lot of guilt for his past mistakes, but he is still quite self absorbed. Jim paints a picture of a rose tinted Hob that is far more the dreamy romantic older gentleman that took a young person under his wing. Which is fair enough.

The show is of course its own adaptation, with changes from the comics as it sees fit, but I do feel it's my duty to remind you that the show also has a narrator guiding the audience through its many stories. Dream of the Endless, Lord Morpheus, King of Nightmares and Prince of Stories himself. Take from that whatever you will.

;-)

[gabessquishytum]

Eleanor Gadlen is most certainly not stupid.

She had asked Robert, long before they were wed, in what year he had been born. It was a reasonable enough question for a woman to ask the man she very much intended to marry, and she had been rather surprised by his faltering smile. He had said I don’t remember, and his face had flushed. It was strange to see him lie so openly, but at the time she was too much in love to let it bother her. After all, he couldn’t be more than 30, and he seemed even younger than that. Eleanor herself was 25 at the time, and ready to be married. The matter passed from her mind as their betrothal was finally secured and eventually followed by a wedding.

Now, she sits across the fireside from her husband, and observes a face that hasn’t aged. He has grown his beard in accordance with the fashion, and his hair is less wild than it might have been a decade ago. But the face beneath is the very same. His body is no different, still as firm and strong as the night she first saw it.

Robert Gadlen hasn’t aged a day in all of the time that Eleanor has known him. Eleanor’s body has changed meanwhile, shaped by their child and by the passage of 10 years, and she is beginning to wonder why his has not.

He loves her just as ardently as he did on the day they married. Each night he takes her in his arms as though he can’t believe that she is his. His eyes have never strayed toward another woman. He always desires her, sometimes too openly for her modesty to allow. His ways are strange, sometimes. He drifts into long daydreams where he feels unreachable. And yet he always comes back and presses his kind face to Eleanor’s breast in search of comfort.

She wonders, occasionally, as she watches him. He is so human. Clumsy, loud and foolish. No demon has ever tripped over a doorstep and smacked its forehead into the wall in the way that she has seen Robert do, over and over. No witch or familiar has ever held a child in the way that Robert holds their little Robyn.

A fairy prince, then? That seems just as unlikely. She feels herself smile at the mere thought, and Robert catches her eye from the other side of the fire. His smile is just the same.

In her dreams Eleanor sits beside the same black-clad stranger each night. They both watch Robert, together. Eleanor thinks that this stranger must be a friend, because she sees the way he looks at Robert. Wondering, surprised, amused. He, too, is trying to figure out the puzzle.

Sometimes she is sure that her Robert is no more and no less than a man. And that, after all, is why she loves him.

Dream of the Endless, in all of his wisdom, can only agree.

[reallyintoscience]

No but. What about. Dream is never angry with disrespect. He doesn't care, what impact is disrespect going to have on him?

He's angry with anything that interferes with his function. He's mad if one of his creations (extensions of his function) are not performing their function as he understands it.

He *likes* disrespect. All his favourite people push back hard on him.

All the "you dares" are about him perceiving that someone's telling him he's somehow bad at his job.

[cuubism]

I keep thinking abt the Threshold vs the Dreaming, since we don’t see much of the Threshold besides the gallery (did u notice Desire’s sigil in their gallery is a mirror?) but there’s no way the entire Threshold is glossy latex hallways, right? There’s gotta be … furniture? Rooms? At least a bed somewhere? A sitting room? What’s it like in there!!!!! Why doesn’t Desire have their own castle like Dream does???

I have some answers to this actually! Since I just read the relevant comics issue.

In Doll's House the Threshold is described thus:

There is only one thing to see in the twilight realm of Desire. It is called The Threshold. The fortress of Desire. Desire has always lived on the edge. The Threshold is larger than you can easily imagine. It is a statue of Desire, him- her- or it-self. (Desire has never been satisfied with just one sex. Or just one of anything--excepting only perhaps the Threshold itself.) The Threshold is a portrait of Desire, complete in all details, built from the fancy of Desire out of blood, and flesh, and bone, and skin. And, like every true citadel since time began, the Threshold is inhabited.

There is only one occupant, at this time. Desire of the Endless. The Threshold is far too large for just one person. It contains two eardrums larger than a dozen marble ballrooms. And empty, echoing veins, like tunnels. You will walk them until you grow old and die without once retracing your steps. Given Desire's temperament, however, there was only one place in the cathedral of its body to make its home. Desire lives in the heart.

So basically, the idea is that Desire lives within the body, and the rooms we see in the show are the inner chambers of a heart. While dreams are made of fantasy and hopes and stories, Desire is physical to the point of literally being represented by a body -- meanwhile we often interpret Dream as not even really having a body in the first place. And there's a self-consumed, self-referential sense to the Threshold, such that Desire literally lives within itself, and is consumed with and preoccupied by itself, solitary, hidden, shielded. The end of the edition contains the following lines -- Desire walks the chambers of its heart. It walks the Threshold, its citadel and its protection--

The solitude and hard edges of the structure are a shield so Desire does not have to admit outside influence, does not have to admit lack of control -- "Human beings are the creatures of Desire. They twist and bend as I require it -- if I thought otherwise, I would crack, like Delirium; or I would abandon my realm, like our lost brother" -- "Desire walks the endless pathways of its body, certain that it is in sole and only control of its destiny" -- the thought of being subject to outside forces or not being in control is frightening to Desire. Which is ironic, considering how out of our control the feeling of desire is, how it happens regardless of choice, and how hard it is to wrangle back. But the Threshold is also representative of desire as a concept, how one will wander through wanting for one's whole life, always finding new things to look for as each one is satisfied; how frightening it can be to reveal a deeply-held want or relinquish it to another person's control (by revealing feelings for example); how closely we hold our desires to ourselves and how they guide our actions; how desire is usually a very personal and solitary and internal experience.

(I don't know if the Threshold even has furniture, actually. I think it's possible Desire spends a lot of time wandering the many isolated empty halls. Interesting too, how the veins are described as empty and echoing, the heart, presumably, not actually beating at all.)

This comics edition also has that line love is in the realm of Desire and desire is always cruel -- which I'm not sure I agree with conceptually, I think that may be more of Dream's perspective, and that really love might be shared between Dream and Desire's domains, and that the Endless's domains overlap more than they might think -- but that's just my feeling. In the end, I think Dream and Desire's respective realms just reflect their sense of their own domain. They're both holding themselves apart from humanity in different ways - Desire thinks humanity should be subject to them, theirs to play with and manipulate. Dream just thinks that he himself isn't really a person, so he's overseeing and shepherding things, but locked away in his tower, not really connecting or admitting himself any humanity. The fact that their interaction with humanity is so different - Desire localized in the body, in the real, Dream in the mind and the abstract, isn't helping with their strained relationship either.

At least, that's how I like to read it :)

[notallsandmen]

If you think that Dream takes a tactless tone with Lyta in the series, I can tell you that it is even worse in the comics

Dream, why are you like this

Dream, I love you and you are only hurting yourself

[questing-wulfstan]

Listen, I can't blame y'all when His Excellence Neil Gaiman hisself compared it to Dream walking out on his date with Hob to hit it off with Shaxberd upon learning about Eleanor and Robyn, but I feel like fixating on this interpretation only of the scene is a disservice to Morpheus' overall characterisation over the season.

Have you noticed how Hob calls "his friend" over to his table and that doesn't phase Morpheus at all then Dream doesn't even ask him whether he still wants to live before putting an end to their meeting ? It's unexpected from someone otherwise so strict and set on protocols ー even when he storms out in 1889, he already had Hob's answer to that question. Yet he leaves 1589 Hob without having formally asked the one question that justifies their centennial meetings.

That is because Dream knows, oh he knows what Hob's Heaven is like. He's had a wife and a son of his own once, and he knew what eternity by their side would be like, once. And he knows Hob has everything but Death on his mind then. He also knows ー or so he thinks ー what Hob's answer will be the next century. For Hob Gadling alone was granted immortality, not Eleanor, nor Robyn. And Morpheus knows what outliving one's son is like.

Morpheus' work in this tavern of the White Horse is done, but he's also taken back to the most traumatic event of his existence, one he won't recover from in two millennia and he can't look Hob in the eyes anymore, he needs a distraction, something, anything but having to confront his revenant grief. And there's that playwright loudly willing to strike a bargain with higher entities for the ability to create timeless dreams for humanity and there's his distraction, there's an escape ...

Comes 1689, Morpheus is certain of the outcome of this meeting. Sure, it will have taken the bugger three time the hundred years Dream had predicted Death, but no matter because it is true : nobody can bear an endless existence.

Then Morpheus learns about not only the expected death of Hob's son, but that it happened much earlier than it should have, devoid of a fulfilling lifetime for Robyn and of psychological preparation for Hob. Scythed in the prime of life, much like Orpheus. And within a close time frame to his wife's departure, too. Hob is holding up a mirror to Morpheus' own misery and the King of Dreams finds himself on the verge of tears. He is no longer smug as he offers Hob what he thinks of as an eventual relief.

Yet ... Hob doesn't take it. Somehow, somewhere, Hob Gadling finds it in himself to resist the tragedy of his life, to chose tomorrow, to decide that whatever the future holds, it is worth being there to see it.

And that is really when something kindles within Morpheus. No longer mere curiosity but a devouring fascination for Hob Gadling, his hopefulness and his resilience. He latches onto that man who shares his misery yet seem to have overcome it, or anyhow accommodated himself to it.

And when they meet again in 1789, and fortune has smiled upon Hob Gadling once again, Morpheus is much more open, much more attentive, much more interested. Who knows if he might not have given Hob his name even, hadn't lady Johanna Constantine interrupted him ?

By all means, Morpheus doesn't process their blooming bond. He's the anthropomorphic incarnation of the human or really, the living unconscious : there are numerous things passing through his mind at all time that he does not process. To him, he's merely monitoring the puzzling glitch that is Robert Gadling's will to live still, and waiting for him to eventually, inevitably renounce his immortality.

So when another century has passed and Hob asserts that their meetings are unnecessary for he won't ever renounce being alive but proposes his friendship, Morpheus is left reeling, faced with how much he has in common with this 'mortal' and his envy for Hob's resilience and capacity to forge ahead.

Naturally he takes flight and makes for an escape, lest he finds himself ensnared by his own grief ...

[ml-nolan]

[Spoilers for Sandman Overture]

I finished Overture last night and I feel like you might when you clean out a recently deceased relative's house and find all their diaries. I feel like I understand Morpheus's character so much better now, and I can't focus on anything else.

I'm thinking about how it must feel to have everyone give you shit about how cold you are, when you're the only one who remembers the catastrophe that came from your softness and mercy.

How little you'd want to reach out for help to people who, the last time you saw them, rejected you when you needed them the most, even when you begged them. People who are your family. Who are supposed to fucking care about you and the things you care about.

And how you might think that whatever terrible thing is happening to you might be deserved anyway because of how badly you've fucked up.

How agonizing it must be to just barely have a taste of freedom and realize that the very thing that fucked you up last time is happening all over again.

How close you'd be to the end of your rope, and how good it would sound for someone else to take over for you.

The line during his battle with Lucifer, "I am hope," which seemed so fucking corny to me before, absolutely breaks me now.

And don't get me started on how much more fascinated I am by Desire, how heart-wrenching that whole relationship is to me, and how when everyone says, "You two are so similar," to Dream, they probably have no idea how right they are.

Everything in the Sandman is cast in such a different light, I feel like I need to tear down everything I thought before and start over.

[rey-jake-therapist]

I was reading @tickldpnk8 's excellent meta about Desire, when something they said about Dream disapproving of Destruction's relationship with Ishtar the goddess of love planted a series of questions in my mind...

First question: how their function influences the Endless' love life? Why was Destruction drawn to a goddess symbolizing Love? Why did Dream disapprove it? Why did Dream neglect Calliope after she gave birth to Orpheus and why did he really severe his connection with them both?

Was it all just..... personal?

When I read that Destruction had a romance with the goddess of Love, my first reaction was to find it.... weird. What do Destruction and Love have in commun? At first view, not much even nothing... except maybe that destruction Can happen because of deceived love?

Dream is the romantic of the family, it's Destruction himself who states it in Song of Orpheus when he tells Orpheus he's just like his father. Dreams inspire the artists and the poets, so his union with Calliope, the poet's muse, probably made sense to everyone (except her sisters, who thought in their great wisdom that Dream was an asshole 😂). But Destruction and Love? Yeah I can totally see why it raised a few eyebrows in the Endless family. I mean, we know Dream in particular disapproved the relationship but Ishtar told her friend that her romance with Destruction ended because of "his family" not just her brother in law, so my guess is that she had to deal with vehement hostility, from everyone not just Dream.

Why would be that? My headcanon's now that the Endless feared that Love would be a bad influence on Destruction, because he would be less kin to do his job right since he would start seeing things differently, about humans, the love they can have for each other and the beauty of it. And I actually suspect that his relationship with Ishtar may have had him question his function indeed, and its necessity. Maybe it's really because he knew Love (he sort of dated it!) that he walked away from the Endless family and didn't choose anyone to succeed him? He knew that love would always end up destroyed but he didn't want this responsibility anymore?

(Please notice I'm mostly talking out loud here.... these are just some random thoughts and questionings....)

Now, Dream and Calliope. In the Wake, Calliope says Dream was basically the perfect husband until she became pregnant. It's often thought that their relationship was damaged by what happened to Orpheus, but the fact is that they started drifting apart long before that. Of course as humans it's tempting to think that Dream lost interest in his wife because she became a mother and he looked at her differently: that's what men often do, right? But Dream isn't a man and Calliope is a goddess; the product of their union was Orpheus, who represented "the supreme power of poetry and music to enchant all natural things". If I look at the evolution of Dream and Calliope's marriage purely on their respective function, the fact that 1. they had separate lives even when they were in love and happy 2. They drifted apart once Orpheus was conceived, both things make perfect sense!

It's often assumed that Dream "gets tired" of his lovers once the thrills is gone aka once the seduction phase is over. But I think it's oversimplifying and again, forgetting that Dream isn't human, he doesn't think like one. My current headcanons regarding Dream and Calliope are that,

They got married first because it seemed to be the perfect union regarding their respective functions. It doesn't mean they didn't love each other, but Dream has loved others before and after Calliope... she's the only one he married, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

They didn't live at the same place, Calliope visited Dream' realm only when she wanted: doesn't it reflect perfectly what inspiration does to us? Coming and going through our dreams, being absent sometimes for months even years....

Once Orpheus was conceived, it's possible that Dream's interest in the relationship faded because... His union with Calliope had filled its purpose. Yeah, I'm aware of how bleak it sounds, but again I'm thinking strictly in terms of concepts, which Dream and Calliope are.

The fact that Dream severed his connection with both Orpheus and Calliope is of course explained within the story told in the comics, but it also can find its roots in the humans'world: the vision that humans have of art, dreams and gods HAVE changed. They don't seem as intrinsically connected as (maybe?) they used to be, at some point science took over and humans kept believing in dreams, but in gods and mythology in general? Not so much. The divorce between Dream and Calliope, I think, symbolizes this dissociation.

I can't NOT also tag @writing-for-life and @poobtato on this big subject ;)

[writing-for-life]

Killalla took the last bit of white out of Dream’s hair

(Editing to clarify: Not Killalla in person, but the whole situation around their failed relationship, which also includes Desire)

Some of you might remember my post about Miguelanxo Prado’s work for The Heart of a Star, how all iterations of Dream start out white and that we still see a few white streaks in Dream’s hair in Endless Nights.

And since I’m currently putting artwork for March Madness together, I just broke my own heart. Because:

Morpheus at the beginning of Heart of a Star:

He clearly has the white streaks here.

The moment of walking in on Killalla and Sto’Oa:

Borderline fading.

And at the end:

They’re gone (if you ask me, the artwork even looks like they went over it again to make a point, but that could be coincidence). In each and every single panel after.

I’ve never really looked at it that closely, and now I just want to cry 🥺

[avelera]

God, there's something so horrifying about Johanna Constantine telling Dream that she'd heard rumors about the Burgess estate and how the Magus had, "The Devil locked up in his basement."

To her, it was just a rumor. To Dream, it is a reminder of the inhuman torment he suffered, but it's more than that.

Johanna Constantine hearing that rumor means that people knew where Dream was. Oh, they didn't necessarily know it was Dream. It was perfectly reasonable that the rumor would be treated as outlandish, that no one would piece together the absence of a mysterious figure like Dream and one ridiculous rumor about a "Magus" who was almost certainly a charlatan.

But from a survivor's perspective, from Dream's perspective, I think the tears in his eyes and the devastation are because it's so much worse to know that the clues to find him and save him were out there. That others heard rumors about the suffering he was going through, but that no one followed up on them. No one out there searched for him. No one tried to help.

(The one friend that tried was murdered for it, in front of him, and he had to sit alone with that grief, without hope, for years.)

It would be better to emerge from that living hell to hear that no one, anywhere, had any idea where he was. It would be better than to hear that his suffering was known, or possible to know had someone just looked a little deeper, and that no one did.

[hardly-an-escape]

tonight I am thinking thoughts about retired!Dream. about human Dream, weak and exhausted, dropped off on Hob Gadling's doorstep like an abandoned housecat.

I am thinking about Hob and Dream not immediately falling into bed, into a relationship, into orbit around each other. I am thinking about Hob turning his office into a spare room, teaching Dream how to be human, how to be independent, introducing him to new experiences and new people, and then basically sending him out free in the world once Dream knows enough to survive on his own. about Dream wanting this, wanting that freedom, that self-determination.

about Dream renting his own flat. cooking his own meals. choosing his own experiences, trying out everything under the sun completely on his own terms because he’s an adult with agency despite technically being less than a year old in human terms.

I’m thinking about Dream traveling. sending postcards and letters back to Hob in London from Cambodia, from Chile, from Butte, Montana. about Dream dating; about his first sexual adventures in a human body being with people he met in pubs or at the library or on Tinder. about Dream falling in reckless human love and getting his heart broken when the other person didn’t feel the same. about Dream making mistakes, making bad choices, getting hurt – never so badly that it scars him, never so deeply that it really damages him, but enough that it hurts – about Dream learning how to come to terms with that pain in his own right.

I’m thinking about Hob stepping into his role as Dream’s steadfast touchstone instead of the other way around. about Dream continually returning to the safe harbor of Hob’s care before he strikes out again on his own. I’m thinking about the patience and devotion and the longing Hob feels as he watches Dream explore; the highs and lows he experiences alongside him; how he wants Dream so fucking badly and will never, ever, push to have him until Dream comes to him of his own free will. because he will not have Dream if he feels beholden. I’m thinking about the iron lid Hob has to clamp down on his own desire, because that’s not what Dream needs from him.

until… it is. because there’s only one way this can end. I’m thinking about Dream realizing that none of his explorations, none of his liaisons, have brought him as much joy and satisfaction as Hob has simply by being his friend, by being there for him. I’m thinking about Dream, returning to Hob, choosing Hob, because he independently comes to the conclusion that they are, in fact, meant to be. about how much deeper, how much more meaningful that choice will be, coming after months or even years of journey and growth and self-discovery.

about what it will mean to Hob, to know that Dream has come back to him, has chosen him, over everything else; that after all his myriad human experiences he has determined that Hob is who will complete his human life and bring him the most joy. and then they make out disgustingly and live happily ever after.

[orionsangel86]

Just rewatched Calliope episode of The Sandman and it occurs to me that this episode strongly implies that Orpheus is dead and gone??

The Hecate state that he "died in Thrace" (which technically he did in the comics too but he lived on because of Death withholding her gift).

Then when Calliope requests to visit Dream in the Dreaming sometime, in a change from the comics she gives her reasoning as "so we may talk about our son and grieve him properly".

Yet in the comics, it is made clear that Calliope visits Orpheus on the island at least somewhat regularly both before and after her imprisonment. So what she says in the show doesn't make sense unless Orpheus is already dead properly in the show?

But that would be a huuuuuge change to the story so surely thats not the case? I probably missed a lot of discussions about this after the show first came about before I caught the brain worms and had to analyse the comics with a fine tooth comb so I would love to know what others think about this.

@duckland @so-i-grudgingly-joined-this-site @notallsandmen tagging for your thoughts as well as anyone else who wants to answer!

[gabessquishytum]

I've seen people talk about how they dislike Hob in 1589, and I must confess that I don't really understand why? I certainly find him a little embarrassing, but I don't dislike him?

Yes, he's boastful, but what is he really boasting about? His wife and child, which is... just kind of sweet, isn't it? His wealth, which ok yes that's cringey but it's understandable I think? He came from literally nothing. Dream is the only one in the world who knows that - he's really the only one Hob can actually boast to.

His attitude to the other people around him is, again, cringey and a little gross. But no worse than the way Dream treats people, let's be honest. I personally dislike Hob’s attitude in 1789 far more than 1589.

I suppose its easy to get caught up in Dream’s perspective. Dream dislikes Hob in 1589 because Hob is happy and thriving and he has everything that Dream himself has lost. At best Dream thinks he's boring, at worst I suspect that Dream resents him. We see Hob through Dream’s eyes in 1589, and we find him crass, irritating, rather ridiculous.

But isn't Hob just... happy?

Well. To quote the vine, that's my OPINION. And everyone else is entitled to their own!