Pia og psyken, ep100
@paralleluniversesfan asked me for a translation of a podcast from 2018 with Henrik as a guest, so here you have it. All 4000 words of it...
As always, I'm translating from Norwegian to English via Swedish, so make of that what you want (viola_player1 did do a quick sanity check of it though, so let's all say "thank you, viola_player1".)
Anyway, hopefully you'll find the translation under the cut 😬
Henrik: Hello.
Pia: Hello. We just have to talk a bit about you and season three and, like, you and Isak, because that was…
Henrik: We can do that.
Pia: …that was really touching, and it hit me really hard because you played someone who was bipolar.
Henrik: That’s right.
Pia: Who… did you get hospitalised, I can’t really remember, but I know you ran around acting crazy.
Henrik: It went fine. It went fine with Even.
Pia: It went fine with Even, yeah. Um. How was it to act bipolar? How did you work your way into the role? How did you prepare for it?
Henrik: It was, first of all, with a lot of respect. And it wasn’t something I got to know until after I got the part, Julie used it as a kind of shielding technique, she told it like a secret. A lot of the characters had a secret that none of the other characters knew about.
Pia: Oh, so when you began filming you knew what your secret was, but none of the others did?
Henrik: Yeah. So for example, Isak knew from season one that he was gay and that’s not something a lot of people noticed, but I think it’s something she wanted to add so that you might act it out subconsciously. That there might be a hint of it but that it isn’t obvious. And it worked since we got the scripts bit by bit, and it wasn’t until I had gotten the role that Julie came to me and whispered in my ear, “Even is bipolar”, and… First and foremost, I didn’t want to base the character just on that, I wasn’t looking to create a stereotype of someone who was bipolar, so it was really important to me to, like, understand what being bipolar meant. What it is, what it does to your mind and to your body. And I also read and watched interviews with people who are bipolar, like Mikael Persbrandt. He talks a lot about the illness and how he deals with it. But it wasn’t just trying to be him, it was also imagining what it would have been for me if I’d been bipolar and to try and picture me in those shoes and try to create that character.
Pia: We made a teaser that we aired a couple of hours ago, and in it I asked you this question, “What do you think is more demanding, to be a superstar, really beautiful, gay, or bipolar?”
Henrik: And then I answered, “It’s all relative.”
Pia: You answered it very nicely and diplomatically.
Henrik: Yeah, but I use that expression all the time because it’s, like, everyone has their problems regardless, and you can’t really compare those problems. It’s more about how you handle them.
Pia: But I think that the point of asking the question is that I know what it’s like to have bipolar. I don’t know what it’s like to be a superstar. You do, though, right? I guess that you lived a pretty exciting life around season three?
Henrik: Yeah, it all happened pretty much overnight. It wasn’t something I could imagine at all. I knew how big Skam was, but the attention, the unwanted attention you got… I act because it’s my passion, and the attention you got from it, not only from Norway but from all over the world, was really fun and exciting to begin with, but it affected my privacy and it isn’t a lot of fun when friends and acquaintances get messages from people who are digging into their lives. It makes you feel very attacked in a way.
Pia: I’ll drag the others into this too. Finn, you told me on monday that Skam is the best thing that Norway has produced, I can’t quite remember what you said, was it “since Ibsen” and something else?
Finn: Munch.
Pia: Munch. Munch, of course. [applause] Yeah, I counted on there being some Skam fans in the audience. Can you say something more, where did that come from, what are your thoughts on Skam?
Finn: I meant it, I didn’t say it just because I was excited. I think it’s a pretty brilliant project and it’ll be exciting to see how Julie Andem takes it further, now that she’s in Austin, Texas, and is making an American version. But there are three elements that I think are important. And one is that once upon a time we had rules and catechisms on how to do things. Now we don’t, but then here comes Skam with, like, here are some suggestions on how you can handle things, like for example when a friend is gay or when a friend is bipolar, like, it’s almost assisting you to understand those situations. And I think that it’s a series that tells young people that you have to learn to feel your feelings. You can’t just run away from your feelings, you have to suffer through them. And the third element, I think, is the decisive one. It is a realistic series with a dose of humour, such that young people can learn to look at themselves from the outside and laugh at themselves. So this is what I think makes it a genius concept that’ll conquer the world. It’s a social realistic sitcom about suffering the pains of being young, and I think that’s what grabs you. Plus that it had incredibly talented people making it, including the whole social media part. It’s not that Skam is that much about shame, it’s more that it’s about handling real emotional and relational conflicts.
Pia: Yes. The rest of you, have you also watched Skam? Else? KariAnne?
Else: Of course. I love it. It’s impossible not to love it.
Pia: It is impossible not to love it. Once you’ve started, then… I think I’ll have to rewatch all the seasons again. I’m getting close to tears now that I look over at you and think back on it.
Henrik: I miss it too.
Pia: Your mum said that, or, I know your mum’s met some of these fans that might suffer from bipolar and has helped them.
Henrik: That’s true.
Pia: That means that… You really hit home with me, and if someone doesn't have someone to talk to then they come to you and to her instead.
Henrik: Yeah. It’s got a lot to do with mum running a restaurant in Vika called Ett Bord, which the fans found out pretty early. So I used to work at Kaffebrenneriet, actually the Kaffebrenneriet where we filmed Skam, and the fans used to come there and I find it lovely to meet people that have been affected by the show, that’s one of the most positive aspects of it, meeting people that’s had their lives changed or have been affected, like you. But the hysterical side of it isn’t that fun when you’re at work, and, like, the customers can’t get through and it’s this very un-Norwegian situation. So it ended with me having to quit the job because of that since it just wasn’t feasible.
Pia: Was it so packed with fans that…
Henrik: Half the store was filled with fans that stood there with their cameras taking pictures, and I can well overlook cameras, it’s part of my job, but that constant focus and knowledge that you’re being monitored and people are taking photos of you no matter what you’re doing, that attention is very tiresome, at least while you’re at work and are trying to do your best. So it ended with me starting to work at the restaurant and it didn’t take more than two weeks before they started turning up there too. But those were slightly different circumstances since I worked as a waiter there, so I had a bit more freedom. But it ended up with me standing there talking to these people because I wanted to hear their stories, I wanted to talk to them. And we’re talking about people who had travelled from China or Russia and were crying and were completely beside themselves, I couldn’t just say “Sorry, I’m at work, I have to…” So it ended with mum and my colleague, who was a friend of mine, they had to take on a lot of my tasks while I stood there talking to people and were a bit of an amateur psychologist. I listened to stories and I love stories, I love people, so it was amazing but I had to quit that job too. So all this has made it so that I can’t work in the service industry anymore. It doesn’t work.
Pia: That’s why it’s so much better making podcasts.
Henrik: Yeah, I’ve thought about it. I think I’ll join in.
Pia: You do that. And now I forgot the next question. Yeah, or, I want to open up for all of you at the end. How do you think our minds are doing in Norway? Skam has contributed a lot to highlight at least bipolar. And the same thing with Unge Lovende, there’s also a bipolar character there. Is there room enough for us? For our minds? You’re all suddenly very quiet now.
Else: I was waiting for any of the professionals to speak first. I think that at least in that context it’s gotten very popular to say that it gets a lot of space. It’s like, “enough talking about it now, you’re just boasting about it” and snide remarks like, “aren’t you over it yet”. But I wonder if it’s really a problem, that there is too much talk about it, since people still find it hard to talk about their issues? Many people need to talk more about their issues, don’t they? I don’t know, maybe there’s too much talk about diagnoses and sometimes maybe there’s too much talk about what’s causing it? I’m thinking out loud here, I don’t know?
Pia: Yeah, that’s good. Very good.
KariAnne: Yeah, I very much agree. I also think it’s the way we talk about it, and especially the younger generation might be too quick to grab on to words like “I have anxiety” or “I have depression” or “I have an eating disorder” and it’s, like, that’s the end of the conversation, but that’s just a label and a part of the characteristic of a condition and it might not really be anxiety or depression that they have but it’s just life taking a turn. Life hits us sometimes, we lose someone, we have bad days, so we might need a higher threshold to talk about how we’re doing and that life can be hard without us resorting to diagnoses because it can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Language is the power of definitions. And I also want to point out something that Skam might have done in a good way, and that is that you might get a feeling these days that a lot of people, especially girls, wants to be Nora from Ibsen, a lark who goes into its cage, throws away the key, and stays there through blogs, commercials, instagram, social media. So I think that the characters that they’ve created for that series are great characters, very strong girl and boy characters, and they do it without becoming preachy. And that’s a very delicate balancing act and I think that’s really good.
Henrik: I just have to say that that was Julie’s intention. She didn’t want to make a series that was, I don’t want to speak too much on her behalf, but I don’t think she wanted to make a series that told young people what’s right or wrong, I think she just wanted to show how she thinks young people have it and just let people think for themselves. But in reference to the question of how we behave towards our mental health in Norway, it’s very related to how us Norwegians behave towards each other too. How we talk or open up to each other is very important, and I think there’s more and more that you don’t dare, or rather that you do dare to open up…
Pia: Do you feel that, like, there might be like that amongst younger people because I don’t feel like it’s like that in my generation, that we’re particularly open with each other? But you might be more open?
Henrik: I think Norwegians in general are pretty closed.
Pia: Right. That’s my experience.
Henrik: And that’s why it’s hard to step outside of these norms of how you’re not supposed to talk about your issues, that it’s something you should sort out on your own. It’s not something you should bother other people with.
Pia: And you’re not supposed to be an outsider, you’re supposed to be perfect.
Henrik: Like, you’re supposed to always feel fine. And that’s also a result of today’s social media, every day is supposed to be perfect and everything is supposed to be great and you’re supposed to share everything. And that’s not always right. And it’s not always true either. So honesty is really the first step to being able to talk openly about things. And that’s what’s nice with film and TV, that you use it as a tool to be honest-
Pia: It’s nice to see yourself on screen…
Henrik: No, that’s the worst thing about it.
Pia: No, I was thinking of it in a transferred way, that watching a TV-series is nice because you process your own feelings by watching other people acting them out.
Henrik: And that’s why us humans find stories so interesting because we learn through stories, we learn how to behave, we learn how to interact with others.
Pia: Yeah, and I know Finn agrees. You have to say something, not just nod. Sorry, I might have interrupted you.
Finn: No, we agree about pictures, film, and also art, literature, etc, that’s… My way of defining emotional pain is like there’s something shapeless inside us that needs to find a shape, and that's when we can begin to relate to it. So it’s great that other people can bring a shape, and then we can say, “Oi, I recognise this” or that someone’s put words to, or made a picture of, or made a scene in a TV series that I can lean on. There is a great figure when it comes to mental health, called Elizabeth Wurtzel, who wrote Prozac Nation 25 years ago. And Elizabeth Wurtzel said in an interview with Aftenposten last year that she got thousands of messages from people that said “I recognise myself in you” and their stories were nothing like hers. It wasn’t that things were similar but they felt that someone had put words to it. And that’s a great quality, to be able to give something a shape. One way to do this is two to three people sitting in a therapy room trying to create a language together. Another way is to use literature, to use tv series, to use things that’s already there. To lean on them, whether it’s for comfort or relief or pedagogy. It’s fantastic that we’re making shapes. Literally getting in shape.
Henrik: It’s funny that you say that because it’s one of the most surprising experiences I’ve had, and it’s happened more than once, that people have realised their diagnosis by watching Skam. They’ve realised that, “Oh, that’s what I’m struggling with”. And I didn’t even realise that that was a possibility when I played that role. Because I have no idea what it’s like to struggle with that, so… I think that it’s Julie who’s managed to give those directions so that it hits so perfectly. But it would never have hit me.
Pia: Yeah, it’s so well portrayed. And so amazing to learn something about yourself. We should hear from Sigrid too, you look like you want to say something.
Sigrid: Yeah, to the original question, because I was thinking about debates and how we talk about these things there, it always takes those familiar tracks where we regularly have these debates about how we mustn’t sicklify human emotions and it’s usually about the whole diagnosis system and what’s needed for sick leave and often the economical aspects gets mixed into it. That we need to be able to handle sorrow and loss, all the bad feelings. And I understand those aspects very well, but at the same time it doesn’t make us wiser on how to cope with all those feelings that can be very heavy and difficult. And it might not be an illness, but it’s still a very grim part of our lives. And when it’s always about whether you should get economic support, then we don’t end up any further on solving what we need to actually do about it. And in addition, every time we talk about it, it’s always about money and about how much money goes to this or that and we don’t talk about the actual subject or about those who have more serious, demanding diagnoses, they get forgotten about when we talk about the easier things that are also important to talk about, but it all gets very formulaic.
Pia: You’re nodding a lot, Finn.
Finn: Yeah, about the original question, I’m a bit apprehensive to say that yes, it’s complex. But maybe it’s complex in an interesting way. Our minds have it better now than ever before in the way that we can talk about things now that were unthinkable to talk about thirty years ago. People a generation back would have found it amazing to live now. And speaking of open, today I spent two hours teaching PE teachers about young mental health. I don’t think my PE teacher spent a lot of time thinking about that all those years back, but he should well have done so. And then there’s another side to it that some people have talked about here, and that’s that we talk about mental health, we talk about depression, we talk about tiredness, we talk about loneliness, but that doesn’t mean that anybody struggles less with it. It might be like KariAnne says, that these are self-fulfilling prophecies. If we have the media constantly talking about the new generation suffering from this and this and this, then they can truly begin to believe that they do suffer from it. So we have to think about our language, when is language good and when is it bad, and language can quickly turn bad if it’s being widely broadcasted while the same language is very good when it’s used in safe spaces. So we have to watch the language we use, whether for diagnoses or for naming a whole generation, like Generation Narcissism or Generation Achievement, etc. And for the third, there is now a very narrow space for our minds. You could be weird over in Østerdal thirty years ago, but…
Pia: We don’t have many eccentrics anymore.
Finn: …today you’d quickly be boxed into a diagnosis. So there’s something about having the space to deviate. The norm, that has also become narrower.
Pia: Yeah, I totally disagree, no, totally agree. My brain is getting tired.
KariAnne: Yeah, just to continue what Finn’s saying, because, for example, us naming a whole generation Generation Perfect, and I do a lot of travel around to youth centres and talk to teenagers and I wonder who in these groups dare to say that “I think it’s great to be kinda mediocre, I’m not that bothered with grades”. I don’t think many would dare to.
Pia: It would have been very cool. Me, I want to be absolutely perfect.
KariAnne: Yeah, right. But I think it gets very difficult when we call them Generation Perfect. And it’s not, and I know Anne Kristine has talked about it, that it might not be them that are Generation Perfect but rather us, the parental generation, who creates this foundation and thinks that they might turn into habitual criminals unless we give them woollen clothes from when they’re kids. We have a lot of clear expectations on how we think they ought to be, so we’ve put a diagnosis on the new generation, but who are we to do that?
Pia: Right. Else, I think you’re about to get the last word.
Else: Me?
Pia: Yeah. I think so.
Sigrid: We are really excited.
Else: As host, shouldn’t you… shouldn’t Sigrid… this is, like, a master suppression technique. Shouldn’t you…
Sigrid: I’m just looking forward to the last words from you. Words that’ll make us walk away from here singing…
Pia: No, you know what? That’s wrong. The last question goes to Henrik. Wait. Wait. Because I promised in the teaser to ask Henrik if he had a secret to share. That he could reveal here with us tonight. And then I’ll come back to you, Else.
Henrik: It’s not very exciting. But I thought of a secret. Or secret, but… I can admit that I wear woolly leggings as underwear more than half of the year. Because I’m terrified of my legs getting cold. And this last week I haven’t found my leggings because I’ve just returned from the US and everything is a hellish mess so I’ve been wearing pyjamas, like, under my clothes, for a week. And I’m wearing them now.
Pia: Very good.
Henrik: But luckily enough I met up with mum, she’s been out buying me new leggings, so thanks, mum.
Pia: Mums can be very nice.
Henrik: Yeah, really nice. I’m terrified of my legs getting cold.
Pia: Thank you very much for the secret. Now, Else. It’s your time to shine.
Else: That was a good share from Henrik, I can’t really beat that. But it confirms that it’s important to share things and that we have to tolerate vulnerability. Since such an icon walks around in pyjamas pants twenty-four seven. That’s a lot to take in.
Henrik: It’s not cool.
Else: So I’ll just fold on this.
Henrik: So you wear pyjamas pants too?
Else: I wear a one piece at home, but that’s more, like, in private.
Pia: But that’s well known. I knew that.
Else: I don’t have any secrets.
Pia: You don’t?
Else: No.
Pia: That’s good. But we can all agree that it’s good to talk about them. We can agree on that. Thank you very much, Henrik Holm, Sigrid Sollund, Else Furuseth, Finn Skårderud and KariAnne Vrabel. And thank you to the audience. Thank you for having us. [applause, end music starts playing] I would have liked to take a photo now. Oh, well. Are you ready to take some questions from the audience if anyone has one. Or should we just end it here?
Henrik: Can I ask a question first?
Pia: Yeah?
Henrik: What song is this? It’s a very nice guitar.
Pia: It’s our theme song.
Henrik: It’s really pretty. Is it a song, or?
Pia: It’s by Matias Grinde, he’s composed our theme music.
Henrik: Really good.
Pia: He’s the son of one of my friends who’s in the audience right now.
Henrik: Cool.
Pia: Yeah. And I think, while we’re on it, that I should thank Øyvind Holmboe Basmo, who does our sound. He’s standing over there, very tall and very dark. Thank you. And Alex, who’s made the design for Pia og psyken, he sits over there, in the middle there. Thank you. And there are surely people I’ve forgotten. No, I think I’ve thanked most of them. So yeah. I think I’ll just say thank you now. I don’t think I have anything more to say. I think I’ll just have some beer now.
Oh, and for anyone who's read this far, laika_the_husband would like to point out that "according to fan theories, the leggings are leopard print".
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