#steph.zip

[boyfridged]

thinking about steph & jay parallels.

you've heard it all but i'm thinking about robin jay (half) jokingly saying that his calling is to be a medic. i'm thinking about robin steph's righteous anger blended with the need for being seen, about her drive for vengeance.

i'm thinking about steph's "rebirth" as a volunteer in the medical field aiding in humanitarian relief efforts. i'm thinking about post-res jay's international murder spree as an assassin in training, about his righteous anger blended with the need for being seen, about his drive for vengeance.

[boyfridged]

if you want a storyline about a young vigilante's complicated grief following the death of their scumbag criminal father then how about i offer you robin #107 – #110. you want steph. enjoy steph. steph doesn't want to be grieving her father. her father was a piece of shit. she is still grieving.

jason? jason's father wasn't a villain. originally he was just some guy who got involved in crime while trying to provide for his family. and jay's grief after him is very straightforward. he doesn't for a second seem to be conflicted about it. he wants to be grieving.

[boyfridged]

A common reframe is that Stephanie reminded Bruce a ton of Jason and while there are some thematic and background similarities in the broad sense, a lot of that only works with the retcons regarding Jason's behavior and history.

With that in mind, what would you say the similarities, contrasts and differences are between Stephanie (When she was Spoiler/Robin, IE pre Batgirl) and Robin!Jason?

ah i'm so happy to be back on the topic of steph & jay. definitely, the only way such a flat 1:1 comparison between them can arise is when we talk about retconned versions of robin jay from flashbacks... but when it comes to 80s jay & pre-batgirl steph? the similarities are so so scarce...

of course, there's a matter of their background and very surface-level similarities in their family structures. the east end as the place of origin. a criminal for a father, and an addict for a mother. except, steph's family has never been written as especially kind or truly caring; her mother seemed at times to be very much complicit in abuse by the virtue of disregarding it. when it comes to the 80s, there's no evidence of jay ever being abused by his parents; the most we can say is that he was neglected due to the circumstances.

subsequently, i think lots of jay's attitude at this point stems from the fact that he was loved. that he has seen people at least trying. that while he was a child, he was a victim of the same system that his guardians were, rather than a victim of them. because of that, he is much more likely to forgive the neglect. i think in his robin run he very much looks for the best in people first as well, as is still guided by compassion first and foremost.

steph's upbringing, while similar in some ways, did not make her develop that outlook; perhaps because she could not afford it. because she rarely saw people trying and was more exposed to the calculated malicious intent of her father. and so, her main motivation is her rightful anger.

another thing; pre-robin jay, while he does stand up against injustice when faced with it, does not seem to have any incentive to become a vigilante himself. steph, on the other hand, is very much a self-made vigilante.

in terms of similarities; i think they both have a pretty natural distrust toward authority and are sensitive to the power imbalance.

i'd also say that both of them do want some kind of parental figure in their lives. the difference is that jay, maybe because he was just 11/12, or because of the already mentioned general attitude, was much more ready to compromise on his own idea of morality and to simply accept batman's way (at least up until starlin's run) without questioning it much. and jay in general, when in safety environment, was much more compliant. steph's personality has always been stronger, and she was much more self-assured than jay ever was at the beginning of his vigilante career.

+ the most important similarity, i think...? i'd say both of their moral stances is built on a very relational and intuitive point of view. they're not ones to dabble in deontology nor utilitarianism (at least not at this point.) except robin jay's ways were still, in some ways, mediated by bruce's methods, which means his intuitions were sometimes filtred through an additional set of batman rules and that he (a bit ironically? despite actually having training of maybe because of that?) trusted himself less. but that lack of complete self-confidence in the field also implored him to be more careful and to plan more.

to sum up, if i were to put them in a simple dichotomy, i'd say robin jay was very much an idealist, while steph was more cynical in her attitude. which might seem reductive, but i think both idealists and cynics share the same sensitivity; they just prioritise different sides of the same coin in their goals.

[boyfridged]

I personally think the reason there are so many people making comparisons between Jason and Steph is that they both were killed off (even though Steph was only dead for a little bit because of a retcon) in kinda similar ways and came back years later. I do find it interesting how their deaths shaped them after the fact!

oh you're right! and well, there's also the fact that bruce did compare steph to jay... sadly.

in terms of their death – i actually posted a while back about how fascinating the different paths they have taken post-res are...

also. sorry, i will use this ask to go on a bit of a tangent, but still around the topic! i think a lot of that new faux resemblance simply has to do with classism. steph was introduced in a time when dc had little care for depicting the lower class with any sympathy, and it is reflected in her storyline. but still, it's not bad nor inherently unrealistic, or at least it wouldn't be, if it wasn't a type of one-dimensional outlook on the topic that later spread onto other characters, jay specifically included. as far as i remember, retcons to jay's childhood pre-robin especially were made in n52, and it actually started to take after the way steph's family was written... so i think a significant source of these comparisons, apart from the death, is that dc simply decided that all the east end kids were disillusioned with the world and out for blood. which is a good storyline if it happens once, not if it becomes a template for all lower-class characters.