#that is the doctor's narrative arc from s1-s4

[variousqueerthings]

Hi!

I’m currently watching Doctor Who (2005) for the first time. Just finished season 4.

And I just read your post from last October (?), where you state that you dislike the character River Song. And even though this might sound a bit mean, I was so happy to read that I’m not alone in my strange aversion against this character from the very moment she appeared in the Library episode. Similar to you I just don’t like the fact, that one of the companions is getting this kind of super special treatment, especially when it is interwoven with a romance and even marriage.

Now I’m a bit apprehensive to start with season 5, because I know River Song will be a huge part of the plot... Is it possible to skip her episodes or would I get problems to follow the overarching story line, when doing so?

Something else I noticed and wanted to ask about is the fact that River Song only appeared in the TV series up to and including season 9 (according to the tardis wiki). I know there are many other kinds of media she appears in after 2015. But I’m curious if they indeed dropped the character in the TV show in some way after a couple of seasons?

So far I enjoyed Doctor Who immensely. It is a fun watch, a great opportunity to get lost in strange worlds and, on a more personal level, a nice way to relax after a busy workday. So I just don’t want to ruin this experience for myself, because I have to follow a character/ or a character construct I really don’t like.

And please don’t worry about giving away future plot points. At this point it is better for my enjoyment of the story to know what will happen, at least in regards to River Song.

SoooOOOoooooeeew hello first of all hello hi! welcome to Doctor Who! (I say, if you've seen s1-4/specials you're firmly In It!)

I want to disclaim to begin with, I know a lot of people do like River Song, and would rec seeing her narrative to understand her whole... Deal. I'm personally not a fan of that narrative, but I'll give you a rundown of it below and if you decide you wanna give it a looksee, or a partial watch, there are suggestions for some episodes including her below as well

to allay your fears that she's overpowering/unavoidable, she's kind of shockingly not, considering what M*ffat seemed to want from her. you can pretty much excise her episodes from the plot and miss almost nothing (and I let you know what you do miss below)

the seasons she's in the most are s5+6. she's only in two episodes in s7 and one more in s9 (with none in s8), which ironically does make it feel even odder to me that she's presented the way she is in s4. I know in the audio dramas she does meet other Doctors but in main canon on the show she meets 10 once, 11 a few times, and 12 once. compared to characters like the Master, Jack, even Rose and Clara according to M*ffat's own canon (these are episodes you will see, so you'll know what I mean at that point) she just doesn't compute for me as this "Most Important" thing that M*ffat tries to pull, in which her "specialness" feels incredibly linked to amatornormative monogamy (and generally M*ffat's penchant for introducing women as mysteries first, and characters second). Also in s5+6 especially she's presented as this uncomfortably "femme fatale" type character with dialogue that makes me want to claw my face off

I do have a watchlist that's for when I next go into this era that does skip the River Song episodes (that being said, I actually quite like her last episode. I have a theory that Peter Capaldi is such a grounding presence that over-the-top narrative and terrible dialogue is made emotionally resonant to me)

SO, first things first, I'll give you a rundown of her arc, and then a watchlist of how I intend to enjoy s5-7 moving forwards that you can totally follow

River Song canon (in brief): River Song is the child of Amy Pond (fifth/sixth season companion) and her husband Rory (also companion in those two seasons). Because she is conceived in the Tardis, she has some regeneration energy innate to her (I wasn't a fan of that personally). Before she is born a space cult that's obsessed with the Doctor for truly overblown reasons that are never fully delved into, but can be summed up as "Gallifrey is un-destroyed and the Doctor has the ability to bring it back into the Universe by using a passcode that's his name, and so this cult has formed in order to stop the Doctor discovering this fact and uttering his name," kidnaps Amy, replaces her with a flesh double who has Amy's memories, erases her knowing she's pregnant and then have her wake up in her real body at the moment of giving birth (if this all feels violating af, yes it is and it's never addressed)

then the Doctor and Rory go to rescue her, but in the moment they succeed, they discover that the baby Amy is holding is also a flesh double and the evil cult took her daughter/River from her and... *sigh please know I am only saying this because it's how they describe it on the show* "raise her to be the perfect psychopath" whose only wish is to kill the Doctor (all this training or whatever happens offscreen), but then the Doctor almost dies while saving her life and she gives up her regenerations to save him and the obsession turns into love, and so in summary her following the Doctor around is still centred around being groomed to be obsessed with the ground the Doctor walks on (okay can you tell I really really don't like this)

there is no examination of River's trauma in all of this, and only one moment related to Amy being angry she couldn't raise her child. There's also this creepy overtone of "The Doctor can't see you ageing because then he'll get bored of you" considering she was raised to have her whole selfhood revolve around him throughout her entire childhood

the final thing about River Song is that she was held in a top-security prison for awhile because she did end up killing the Doctor due to being "programmed" to, but the Doctor knows ahead of time that this will happen and so manages to change things so he doesn't die

SO that is River Song's arc in s5+6. now let's completely avoid it -- it's surprisingly easy:

s5

ep 1. The Eleventh Hour (introduction episode)

ep 2. The Beast Below

[then come episodes Time Of Angels + Flesh & Stone. a double episode in which Amy meets the Angels and also River Song. the important thing here is that the main "mystery" are cracks in space and time that erase you from having ever existed. the other important thing here is that at the end of the episode Amy is about to get married and kisses the Doctor/tries to sleep with him the night before her wedding, and the Doctor Very Much Does Not Want This, which leads into the next story-]

ep 5. The Vampires Of Venice

ep 6. Amy's Choice

[NOW WE ARRIVE AT THE FIRST SNAG -- if you want the rest of this season's mystery, you should simply watch the rest of the season. This will include River Song in the final two episodes being involved in that mystery, but if you'd rather jump to where I personally think things get interesting again, or gauge if you're up for it, here's the short rundown of salient points:

Rory is swallowed by the cracks in time and Amy forgets his existence (but the Doctor doesn't)

Rory is brought back as an auton/living plastic out of Amy's subconscious memory of him and accidentally shoots Amy due to programming while they're in Roman-era Britain

Amy is then put into a stasis chamber for 2000 years until she can be brought back out and revived using modern technology, and auton-Rory guards that stasis chamber for 2000 years

the cracks in time came from the Tardis exploding, which is making the universe implode, but they fix that

the Doctor closes the cracks in space/time and everything is reset, including Amy's parents returning from non-existence, and Amy and Rory get married -- to be clear, we never see Amy's parents again, nor are they mentioned in the future, so this catharsis is kind of irrelevant

There is a very famous episode in this called "Vincent and the Doctor." it's about Vincent van Gogh. the only thing you need to know going in is that during this point in the timeline Amy doesn't know that Rory used to exist, otherwise it's a solid standalone episode]

S6

ep 3. The Curse Of The Black Spot (to note, I always think this episode makes more sense directly after Amy's Choice as a "they're not married yet, but they're solving their relationship issues now," because s5 never has them adequately deal with their relationship issues, but s6 is solid on that front, but that's just me)

ep 4. The Doctor's Wife

ep 9. Night Terrors (to note, this episode takes place right after they discover that River is their daughter who was stolen from them. notice how this just... never comes up)

ep 10. The Girl Who Waited

ep 11. The God Complex (to note, this is the perfect final episode for the Ponds, but I will rec two more that come next season)

Season six can genuinely just be watched as these five episodes and it's quite an enjoyable season. The only thing that hints properly at a connective tissue related to River Song is that Amy in the first two both is-and-isn't-pregnant (because Amy is a flesh-double in the first two episodes) according to the Tardis scanner, and she sometimes sees a mysterious woman with an eye-patch. this is her briefly slightly waking up while captured

neither of these are relevant to the episodes they appear in

s7

QUICK NOTE: in the first episode of this season the Doctor discovers a strange woman who has been turned into a Dalek, called Oswin. He never sees the face of this woman, but we do, and it's someone who returns again in another lifetime, under the name of "Clara Oswald" -- I do not recommend this first episode, it is Very Very bad)

4. The Power Of Three (to note, this could form a good coda for the Pond narrative and it's a fun episode, but it's not necessary to end their story if you're happy with The God Complex finishing things)

[you can watch episode 5 "The Angels Take Manhatten" if you want (I mean, you can watch anything you want). it's the official canon departure of the Ponds. it's not great, but it's not the worst episode. River Song is there, but it's not so egregious in terms of writing. if you don't want to watch it: they go back in time, there are angels, they send Rory and Amy back in time and the Doctor can't follow them there because of squiggly wuiggly logic, and so they are left to "live to death" -- Amy writes the Doctor a goodbye note in which she says she and Rory have had a very happy life together]

we have now gone past the River Song narrative for the most part, although she turns up in a genuinely not bad cameo in the s7 finale that interacts a little bit with the library episode -- do note that at this point she and the Doctor are *sigh* married I guess. I have mixed feelings about the s7 finale episodes, but it's not because of her character, and I think the latter half of s7 is worth watching for you to form your own opinion of all of it

She appears again in the Christmas special of s9, which I quite enjoyed. I think also Alex Kingston has way better chemistry with Capaldi, and I sometimes think the show knew this too, because they literally at one point had her describing Eleven/Matt Smith as looking like a 14 yr old, which is... such an odd way to describe the seeming "love of your life" or whatever

so that's it for River Song. Hope this all made sense, let me know if you have any other questions

I have a separate list I'm developing like this for Clara's era, but she might be more your cup of tea, so I'll let you engage with her for yourself to gauge. Can always reach out if you're not quite vibing with her, or if you really really are, I'd love to know your thoughts!

[slippingbetweenthestars]

something something Ten was unwilling to regenerate when surrounded by people he loved (the classic Good Death) but willingly accepted death against every emotional instinct when practically alone after re-experiencing the destruction of his people and his oldest friend (pretty much a horrible Lonely Bad Death by all measures)

[always-la-belle-epoque]

hi what is mash and why do you love it so much because i need to know if i need to love it too thanks

Hello, anon! It took a bit because I wanted to put time into my answers, so here you are! 

What Is M*A*S*H: 

M*A*S*H is a tv show about doctors/nurses stationed at a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (M*A*S*H) unit on the frontlines of the Korean War. The show focuses on the medical staff as they desperately try to save the lives of young soldiers. Many of the doctors are draftees and they are faced with trying to cope with the horror of a war they want no part of and that is the absolute antithesis to their professional calling. They fight against death every day, struggle against military bureaucracy, and try to keep their sanity. Often that deep stress is released in humor, practical jokes, and wildly unmilitary antics, but the true costs and realities of war are never treated lightly. I’ve never seen another show that can make me laugh so hard and then turn on a dime to make me cry just as deeply a second later. The show is a beautiful examination of human nature, heart, found family, loss, helplessness, despair, exhaustion, humanity, and hope,. 

M*A*S*H ran for 11 years, from 1972-1983 and the finale, Goodbye, Farewell and Amen, is still the most-watched television broadcast in history (the NYC sewer nearly faced collapse because people would all flush the toilet at the same time during commercials, and the streets were totally empty of cars as over half the country, 150+ mil people, watched the finale live together all at the same time. Can you imagine?!). Plus, it’s been in continuous syndication for 45 years which is impressive. M*A*S*H is for all generations, it resonates far beyond the era in which it was made, or which it was made about.

Why Do I Love M*A*S*H So Much (in general):

I don’t think there is another show out there in the history of the world that has written such narratively wonderful, deeply moving character arcs. I don’t know if there’s another show out there where the characters grow so much from their relationships with one another. Or a show that depicts masculinity in such a healthy, tender way. It is normal on M*A*S*H for male characters to: Cry. Hug. Tuck each other in. Hold hands. Perform emotional labor. Actively listen. Dance together. Sleep with teddy bears (and not have it be a joke). Admit they were wrong. Change and grow from being wrong. Etc, etc. 

And while Major Margaret Houlihan is the only female lead, her character arc is the most beautiful of any character I have ever watched or read. The show doesn’t start out particularly feminist, but it definitely ends that way (both male and female characters evolve here and it’s wonderful). And if more tv shows had characters half as complex as Margaret Houlihan, tv would be a whole lot more interesting, and women would be a whole lot farther along toward equality, imo. 

Why Do I Love M*A*S*H So Much (the personal): 

I was 15 or 16 when I started watching M*A*S*H. I was going through a very dark time in my home life. But my Mom would usually have M*A*S*H on while making dinner or just after. It was their weird time of day where it seemed like a truce between us. Sometimes I’d even sit all 5’8 of my gangly teenage body on her lap and we’d just watch like that with her arms around me (which given that things were darkly terrible the rest of the time it was like being a small kid again in a way I really needed). We’d talk about the characters. We’d talk about the stories. We both loved Margaret Houlihan (it’s interesting that Margaret has the most valuable traits I learned from my Mom - things I like most about her and am grateful she taught me despite all the bad stuff). 

Soon I was racing home after school and jamming in a blank VHS so that I could record each ep. I’d cross reference between tv guide and IMDB to try to see if any eps that I hadn’t seen yet would be on so I could record them for my collection. I made an elaborate cataloging system because they weren’t shown in order! And some eps were shown only rarely!! (I’m only 28, it amazes me that this was how things were not that long ago lol). 

Anyway, the DVD box set came out and I saved up alllllll my $ for it. Thank goodness, because then I got sick and for a few years the M*A*S*H characters were the most consistent and truest friends I had. The show is deeply personal for me. I can watch it over, and over, and over. It makes me laugh, and weep, and cheer. It’s like having friends. Like having family. 

Should You Love M*A*S*H too?

I want you to love M*A*S*H. I want everyone to love M*A*S*H! And M*A*S*H holds up. It’s still radically progressive. It’s still - in this time where North Korea is a frequent headline, where we have a government we do not trust, in a world where we have been at war since 2001 - deeply relevant. 

Here’s the thing though: it was made in the 70s, about events in the 1950s, and this is 2019 tumblr-land. You’ve all read the roasts about lack of critical thinking skills on this website and ability to contextualize, and those posts are unfortunately not wrong. And the world has changed - and changed for even better than what was, at the time, truly radical! Even terms that were the liberal, pc term in the 70s have changed now and are not liberal or pc anymore which for the 2019 watcher might raise eyebrows. But the show is extremely pointed about calling out racism, homophobia, sexism, military fetishism, colonization, etc. I think maybe the only other show I can think of that goes so hard at dogged and relentless political call outs would be One Day at a Time. So I feel protective of M*A*S*H because in 50 years maybe we will look back at ODaaT and say yikes about certain things, though that feels crazy to say now. 

If you do want to watch, here’s my advice (pull down your pants and slide on the ice (sorry, omg M*A*S*H jokeee)): 

Do not start with S1. Start with S4, or S5 even. For one thing, there are some cast changes at the start of S4 so you get intro-ed to everyone again in “Welcome to Korea pt 1 & 2” and “Change of Command.”  It’s a really good starting point to see a lot of characters on the brink of change. Don’t get me wrong, I still really love S1-3 but the characters haven’t grown yet. I love going back because I know them so well, but if you’re just meeting them, I recommend getting to know them in the middle of their journey, watch them evolve, and then go back and see where they started. And I think Col. Potter/BJ really elevated the tone of the show.

Because M*A*S*H is an older tv show, most people who love M*A*S*H never watched the show in order because we could only watched it in syndication! And you don’t really need to watch in order! In fact, CBS had the final call for episode order so sometimes even the air order is different than the writing, filming, intended order. Also, because they had 11 years of content over a 3 years of war, the show itself isn’t chronological. Due to probability (there are just more Potter/BJ eps) I saw more S4+ eps when I was first watching the show so again that’s my newbie preference. Now that it’s on Hulu (and remastered OMG) it might be tempting to watch in order, but really do recommend skipping around or at least starting later in for sure. You’ll learn context as you go (recs below). Then once you get the characters and their arcs it’s suuuuper fascinating to watch in order. 

 Fight me: Is everyone bisexual on this show??! Yes, yes they are. This is where I go full 2019 tumblr-brain, lol, but looking back I think it’s one of the reasons I loved it before I understood myself. It’s gentle, tender, pretty wavy. Alan Alda’s Hawkeye Pierce is, like, arguably canonically bi, like I even wonder if he was intentionally written/played that way on the dl. It’s pretty blatant?? And don’t even get me started on Margaret Houlihan. Godddddddd. 

 On that note, and maybe you will fall over, but Margaret and Hawkeye are my actual, #1, forever OTP. Which is weird for you, dear readers, I’m sure, as I run a v strict wlw blog and I’m very proud about that. But broken people who heal and change and grow because of the other is my tea, jam, and bread (”crackers and jam! too bad!” ;) ),  and so far the writing of other characters and relationships hasn’t a hope of even coming into the range of depth these characters have (obvs not just wlw ships, all other mlw ships are The Worst as well, we’re all doomed, why does tv suck). But anyway, I would take them over any ship any day of the week goombye (but also….shipping Margaret is kinda like….not the point of Margaret Houlihan). 

It’s worth noting that M*A*S*H has a character named Maxwell Klinger who wears a dress to try to get out of the army via a Section 8 (previously known as a “psycho”) discharge (remember lgbtq was still classified as a mental illness, smh). Obviously, this is potentially triggering. And, obviously, not okay in today’s world. To me the show does call out that it is the policies/laws/politics that are crazy, not Klinger. I think there are still some fairly modern ideas in his portrayal in that anyone who treats him like he is crazy, or is disrespectful, is very pointedly shown to be bigoted/an antagonist. Klinger is excellent at his job, brave, loyal, true, and that’s all anyone who is a protagonist cares about (and I do think they try to show to the extend they could during the time it aired that even if Klinger were not doing it for a discharge, they would respond the same way). Fwif, imo, Klinger isn’t played as a one note joke for wearing dresses, in fact, to an extent, he does wear them utterly sincerely. He loves, deeply loves, clothes and fashion because loving something gives him something to live for. It becomes his passion, not a gag. The gag is that Klinger will do anything to get out of the war through any available loophole he hears about (having an imaginary pet camel, eating 10 sausages in a single day, eating a jeep, trying to get into West Point aka join the military to get out of the military), etc. His comrades in arms treat him very sincerely and are very protective. Early on, a jeep comes in with wounded and Radar pulls Klinger away from the blood, “careful, you’ll get your dress dirty” in the most serious, sweet way. Col Potter is always very serious and sincere about telling Klinger when one of his dresses is a fav, and Klinger positively glows. When Klinger has to trade his dress collection to local women in exchange for shelter for the wounded during a bug out, Col. Potter, regular army in his 3rd war, tells Klinger (who is in tears) that it’s the finest act of bravery he has ever seen (and he means it). When Margaret desperately wants to look pretty and Klinger pulls out one of his best frocks and helps her dress in it - Margaret who grew up in combat boots wanting a crew cut - it’s pretty emotional (and I bawl when he gives her the wedding dress, goddd). As for Klinger himself, he’s one of my favorite characters. He has the biggest heart and I love him (and yes, I might feel differently if I had a different life experience than I do - that is why I’m flagging this as something that might not be for everyone, or might be trigger - because history already is triggering, and not everyone might be as moved by him as I am).

If you’re a 30 Rock fan you will know the star Alan Alda as Milton Greeen, Jack Donaghy’s father, and if you love Beauty and the Beast you will know that the actor who voiced Cogsworth is a major (lol pun) character in S6-11! But that’s all crazy to me because they are always M*A*S*H, first and forever, and always in my mind! I can’t believe they’re all in their 80s now, or that so many of them have passed.  :( They are truly my whole heart, my family, my home. 

If you do want to watch, recommend you start with the following eps (omg this list is long but it feels so short):

Welcome to Korea pt 1 + 2 (s4)

Change of Command (s4)

Aid Station (s3)

Death Takes a Holiday (s9)

Carry on, Hawkeye (s2)

Bug Out pt 1 + 2 (s5)

Dear Sigmund (s5)

Period of Adjustment (s8) *my first ep ever :,)

The Bus (s4)

Sometimes You Hear the Bullet (s1)

Tuttle (s1)

Crisis (s2)

O.R. (s3)

5 O'Clock Charlie (s2)

The Nurses (s5)

The Interview (s4)

Movie Tonight (s5)

Abyssinia, Henry (s3)

Hepatitis (s5)

Your Hit Parade (s6)

Peace on Us (s7)

Eye for a Tooth (s7)

Old Soldiers (s8)

Life Time (s8)

Stars and Stripes (s8)

Hey, Look Me Over (s11)

There’s a million more things I could say about the show. I feel like I haven’t summarized it justly. If anyone wants to chime in with why they love M*A*S*H, what your fav ep is, etc, please do :)

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Beth Greene was Always Gimple’s Sheriff

 Good morning Everyone! Please prepare yourself for some epic parallels! This is a bit lengthy so grab yourself a warm beverage and settle in for a few minutes.

This post is based 100% on potential, unconfirmed spoilers that were posted this week. I normally wouldn't do a post on something that's unconfirmed, but I believe very strongly that the spoilers are correct. Why? Because even though it's not something we ever theorized before, they fit in perfectly with Beth's narrative. They connect EVERYTHING across four seasons and are yet more evidence that Beth's return is only a few episodes away.

Everything is below the READ MORE for those who don't want to be spoiled. So if you don't want potentially massive spoilers for this season—and kind of the rest of the series?—do NOT read this post. You've been warned.

Okay, so if you want to read the spoilers in detail, look at THIS POST that I put up last night. The gist is that they're pretty sure Carl is dying in the MSF. That totally sucks! I'm still heartsick about it. And again, the spoilers aren't confirmed so I HOPE their wrong, but I don't really believe they are. The reason is that we actually have tons of evidence for it, which I'll lay out in this post, but that we just never noticed before.  

Most of my fellow theorists have asked me if I saw this coming, because none of them did. And the answer is no, I didn't. I don't think anyone did. Even if something struck us at suspicious at one time or another, we just didn't think Gimple was ballsy enough to kill off Carl. *Sigh* I guess if we haven't learned by now that he's ballsy enough to kill off absolutely ANYONE, it's our own faults.  

The fact is that now, every evidence we've ever seen for Beth that involves Carl can now be seen in a new light, and makes SO much sense. I'm going to argue that this isn't about Chandler going to school. Gimple has been planning it this way since season 4, and I'll prove it to you.  

So let's start there. Let's go through various things that were probably foreshadows of Carl's death, but we just didn't realize it.

Season 4:

4x16: A

The sheriff's hat. In the famous scene where Rick puts the hat on Beth and calls her the "new sheriff in town," it falls off Carl first. It's so subtle, but it's probably a foreshadow not only of his death (no longer wearing the hat; because why else besides being dead would he ever stop wearing that hat?) but also that Beth was never going to return and take her place as sheriff until Carl's demise.  

Also keep in mind that we saw Negan knock that hat off Carl's head twice last season. Once in 7x01 and again in 7x16.  

4x03: Isolation

There's a scene where Carl and Hershel go outside to collect berries so Hershel can make tea for those who are sick. I've always connected this scene to Beth (X). The reason is that they see a female walker who's leg is in a bear trap (Bear Symbolism). It just feels very Beth-ish. Imprisonment. Parallels to Beth stepping on the small game trap in Alone. Oh, and Hershel doesn't allow Carl to shoot the walker, which is a parallel to TF not shooting or stabbing Beth to make sure she wouldn't turn.

Interestingly, there are some callbacks to S1 in this scene. A walker sits against a tree much like Jim did when they left him in S1. 

And then there's an empty tent which is a callback to looking for Sophia (which is actually season 2). 

The Sophia tent I understand because it's part of the "missing girl" theme, which we've seen around Beth a lot.  

But I never understood the S1/Jim reference. I never knew what the point of having that in the scene was. Now I do. In S8, when Beth appears (walker in the bear trap) there will be some season 1 stuff going on, which we are now seeing very heavily in S8, and will continue to see in 8x02. If you've read spoilers about the "familiar face," you know what I mean.  

So here's how this relates to Carl's death. Carl is very much the sheriff in this part of the story. Everyone is sick, Daryl/Michonne and co have left to go to the veterinary college, and when Rick and Carol leave to canvas for supplies, Rick leaves Carl in charge. That's why Carl insists on going out with Hershel, to protect him.  

So we're seeing a parallel of this now in S8. When Michonne said in 8x01 that this was Carl's show, it means that he's in charge, much as he was in this scene from S4. Even though Michonne is there, Carl is the sheriff. There's not a specific death omen in that scene that I can tell, other than Carl's general fatalism, but let's keep going.

After the prison falls, Rick has a heavy Beth parallel because he falls into a mini coma and sleeps for more than a day. Carl can't wake him up. So once again we see Carl being "the sheriff" by going to look for supplies on his own. He does assert his own independence and even yells at Rick that he would be fine if Rick died.  

But the thing is...it's not true. Later that night, Carl starts to cry and say he can't do it by himself and he was wrong. Now, this is one of my favorite Carl-centered scenes. I've always seen it as beautiful and sad and human, so I'm not knocking it in the least.

But we do have some interesting juxtapositions here. We sort of see Carl's weakness, in that he can't be by himself. And yes, he's a kid and you can't reasonably expect something like that from most kids, but most other characters could have gone on without Rick. Even at Carl's age, Daryl would have been just fine, lol. Meanwhile, we have these Rick/Beth parallels of being in a coma, not able to wake up. Carl even comes close to shooting Rick, but doesn't. Then Rick wakes up from his mini coma and is fine.  

I'm not even saying I see a specific death omen here. Just that it's interesting. Carl's weakness along side a sheriff awakening from a coma.  

Season 5:

5x02: "You are not safe." This speech from Rick to Carl was even in most of the promos. Now, granted, nothing happened to Carl right away, but I think it's significant that it was said in S5, not long before Beth is shot. It's a foreshadow that eventually, something might happen to Carl. Rick says, “It only takes one second. One second and it’s over.” Sounds pretty ominous.

5x08: Deleted scene from Coda. The one where Rick and Daryl talk on the roof.

I'm SO side-eyeing this scene now where Carl is concerned. We TD-ers have always seen it as a sweet moment between Rick and Daryl. One of understanding and solidarity. It's Rick's way of telling Daryl that he understands that Beth and Carol mean as much to him and Carl and Judith do to Rick, and that Rick will back him up with whatever needs to be done to keep these women safe.  

But now look at it in terms of Beth returning just as Carl dies. Everything Rick has done since S1 has been about keeping Carl safe, and of course Judith is part of that too. Rick actually tells Daryl that here. Then, right after, Daryl loses that person (Beth) that meant so much to him.  

So what we're seeing is a theme about Daryl getting Beth back just as Rick loses Carl. I'm not sure I’m illustrating this very well. It's crazy-intricate.

Think of it this way: Rick has almost lost Carl many times (S2 shooting, his humanity in S3/S4, shot in the eye in 6x09) but Carl has always come back from these things. Carl has gotten many returns. (Everything gets a return). Beth, of course, has not. So Rick has had a great deal of time with Carl, and much of it is miraculous because Carl SHOULD have died in most of these situations, but didn't.  

So Rick talked about doing anything to keep his kids safe. Then Daryl lost his person. So when Rick loses HIS person (Carl) in S8, mirroring Daryl's loss in S5, that's when Daryl's person (Beth) will return,

So in 4x16, the sheriff's hat falls off Carl and Rick picks it up and puts it on Beth. New sheriff. New arc. New hope. New loss.

5x08: “I get it now.” This has less to do with Carl, but what is only a short time later, Beth stands in the hallway of Grady toe to toe with Dawn. She says, "I get it now," which is all about her future leadership. I've always said this shot of her between Rick and Daryl shows that she'll rise to be a leader of the group on par with both of them. (Details HERE.) But it's means more than that now. She'll actually take over as leader for Rick and lead beside Daryl. (I'll explain that more in a minute. Bear with me.) So we have evidence of her leadership, right before Daryl loses her in a way that was referenced by Rick, only in his case it was about Carl and Judith. See what I mean? Holy crap!

5x16 Conquer: Can we please appreciate this shot one more time? Carl, Judith, and the music box. Just like Carl, Judith and Beth were all present in the flashback scene of 4x16. I'd never actually connected these two shots in this way before, but holy cow!

Season 6:

Not tons to add here. It IS important that Carl protected Judith when the wolves showed up, and that he and Enid are kinda paralleled with Bethyl off and on. Making more sense as to why now.  

6x09 – No Way Out  

I already talked about Carl being shot in 6x09 and Rick really freaking out when he was sure he'd lose him. (Foreshadow anyone?) But I'm also kind of thinking about Denise now. We've already established how monumental her parallels to Beth were. So I'm just side-eyeing the fact that she worked on Carl and saved him. Yes, I know she's the doctor and who else would have worked on him, but they didn't have to parallel her so heavily with Beth. And once again, while her "saving" him might suggest that Carl lives, it's really an anti-parallel.

It's actually a lot like the Deer Theory. When the deer lives, the character dies. When the deer dies, the character lives. (Wonder if we'll see a deer around Carl's death at all.) This is similar. Carl lived after being shot in 6x09. And Denise is a Beth proxy. Denise died only a couple of episodes later. So when Beth is revealed to truly be alive, Carl will die.

6x16 –  Last Day on Earth

Now check out what Carl says to Rick just before the saviors start whistling and surround them. "We can do anything. And we will. What happened to Denise. I'm not gonna let anybody die like that again."

Whoa? Seriously? If Denise = Beth, then when Beth lives... See what I mean? So I was thinking that maybe Carl would die protecting Judith. But maybe he'll die protecting Beth? No idea really. Either way, I think he'll go out as a hero, protecting someone. It also suggests that whoever he protects will be in danger of dying like Denise. A crossbow bolt to the head? If that almost happens to Beth but doesn't, it will be ultimate validation that we were right all along about Denise parallels.

Season 7:

I already mentioned that Negan knocks the hat off twice, which is pretty huge. 

(Negan/Carl’s Hat Gif)

Also, in the second lineup in 7x16, when Negan is going to kill Carl, Carl looks up at him and says, "You won't win." That was one thing that was always suspicious to me. And no, I never actually thought they would kill Carl. But even so, I always felt like he was being a little too accepting of his own death, rather than fighting it.  

So now is probably a good time to mention this next thing as well. I firmly believe that they use death fake outs and close calls as foreshadows of actual deaths down the line. We certainly saw it with Glenn. He had death fake outs in both S4 and S6, and then eventually we did lose him. Same thing with Carl. His "almost" death foreshadowed his actual one.  

Of course it's nearly impossible to pin down who will go next or when it will happen because 1) Every character has had close calls and could potentially die at any time and 2) they move so slowly that even if a character is dying in a few days, it might STILL be two seasons away, lol.  

Season 8:

So remember in my Details and Foreshadows post about 8x01, I talked about 1) Michonne saying this is your show, which I said is a theme we've seen before and is always equated with death or the missing girl. This just goes to show how Beth's arc is tangled up in Carl's, and again, if he's the sheriff, then she's about to appear, just as the walker with the bear trap did in 4x03, at the same time as the S1 callbacks.  

2) Then there's what that Savior said to Rick about how he would beg, and his son would still die. I didn't think Carl would die when I heard that. Only that there would be death in his arc. Wrong on the first count, right on the second. The death in his arc will be his own.

So the idea is that Rick's Old Man Coda is just like the picnic dream in 7x01. It's his vision of a perfect, peaceful future, but someone in it (Carl) isn't actually alive in reality. I think this story telling technique is fascinating because they introduced it to us in 7x01 so we'd be familiar with what it is. They're using it again, but this time they aren't telling us who died. It will be revealed slowly as we go along.  

The second flash forward, of the Rick with the red eyes beneath the cross, is most likely Carl's funeral.  

The other foreshadow that I didn't even mention in my previous post is when Rick tells Maggie that when the war is over, he'll follow her. That could symbolically point to Beth (that he'll be following a Greene sister) but really I think it's both. Just because Beth leads doesn't mean Maggie won't still lead Hilltop in some capacity. Or it could just be a general foreshadow that Rick simply won't be leading anymore.  

One more outside-the-show evidence? I was talking to my buddy @paolo_pedini (IG) about this. He told me that he wasn't surprised Carl is dying, mostly because Comic Book Carl is so different than TV show Carl. I don't read the CBs, so I wouldn't know this, but he told me that the two are so different, he's never understood how TV Carl will ever get to be CB Carl. And he doesn't mean it as a knock on Chandler's acting. Not at all. But the vibe is just different. In the show, Carl is very Glenn/Hershel/Beth-ish. He's very compassionate and all about helping people. And in the CBs, he's just not that way.

Now granted, at any point, Gimple could feasibly do a story line for Carl that would change his outlook and attitude toward life, but he's been on the show since S1. Shouldn't Gimple have been moving him toward that point all along? It's like they didn't even try. Just more evidence that Gimple never planned for Carl to survive into adulthood.  

Everyone take a deep breath and process. It totally sucks that Carl is dying. I didn't want that at all. (I'm very upset!) But do you see why I think they're right? How it makes sense for every step along the way and shows that Beth was never going to return until Rick lost Carl?

Links Back to S4, S5, and Beth

This is where things get crazy-epic. So another thing we discussed in our FB group when we all started freaking about these spoilers was whether Rick would die. Not that we think they'd kill off both Carl and Rick in the same season, but it's a valid concern. If Carl dies, and he's what Rick has been living for and protecting for 8 seasons, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Rick will simply fizzle out and die physically as well. I'm here to tell you that's NOT how things will play out. Why? Because of Hershel.

We actually have a few evidences we can point to. First is the Old Man Coda. Just the fact that Rick is dreaming or thinking about the future tells me he'll be in it.

Also, I've always said that, despite what Kirkman says about killing off Rick, Gimple would never do that. Lots of story tellers get away with doing that sort of thing, and some with great success, but the fact remains it's not a particularly great story telling technique. You should always end with the character you start with. Gimple is too good a story teller to pull a stunt like that. The show started with Rick. It will end with him too. I'll come back to this, as it's probably the biggest evidence of everything I'm saying here and the reason for the title of this post.  

First, let's talk about why I'm sure Rick will survive Carl's death.  

Ties to Grady:

First, back to Grady. Remember THIS POST I did after season 6, about how weird and annoying it was that they focused so much on Dawn's backstory. We just didn't care and wanted to know other things, but they kept telling us about Captain Hanson who was the leader at Grady before Dawn. They went out of their way to tell us that the two of them weren't rivals. He was her mentor, in fact. She loved him (platonically) and they were very close. Now, we all know that if Beth is really dead, the Grady story line was one ginormous waste. No one living (apparently) took anything from that arc, so it was entirely superfluous. Of course we believe Beth IS alive, so Grady wasn't a waste. It was all about her.

In considering that, I theorized that Dawn's back story MUST be a foreshadow of Beth's arc. There's no other reason for them to include it. So I thought that captain Hanson would = Rick. Rick would crack at some point, and Beth would step in for him as leader. Guys, we're about to see that happen.

I'll admit I thought we were seeing it in S7. Rick definitely cracked under the pressure of Negan and Glenn's death. By the end of 7x01, he was sniveling, snot-covered mess. But he came back from that and was very strong in standing up to Negan in 7x16 and now so far in S8, he's been the badass Rick Grimes that we all know and love.  

So, if Rick came back from Glenn's death, came back from all the traumatic times he thought he'd lose Carl, etc., what would actually crack him to the point of shattering? The only thing would be losing Michonne or one of his children. Rick and Michonne talked about the possibility of losing one another last season and how they have to go on. Yeah, that kind of points to it being Michonne, but based on what the spoilers said and all this stuff above, I think it'll be Carl. I think the real foreshadow in their convo in 7x12 was that, even after epic loss, no matter what that is, they have to be able to go on and lead their people. Rick is not going to be able to do that for at time.

Now, I know that Hanson being killed by Dawn may make it seem like Rick will die. In the Hanson story, Rick = Hanson and Beth = Dawn. But 1) I've always said that Beth won't kill Rick. She's a better person than Dawn was and will have a great deal of MERCY for Rick. In a twisted way, Dawn did mentor Beth, but Beth learned what NOT to do from her. ("I get it now.") And 2) There's season 4a and Hershel.

Ties to Season 4a:

Let's return to 4a. And hold onto your butts because this level of planning on Gimple's part may just blow your mind.  

Remember the "we get to come back" theme? Most people only remember it from Rick's epic speech to the Governor in 4x08, but it actually started way before that.

In 4x01, after Rick's encounter with Crazy Walker Chick/Clara, he went back to the prison and told Hershel all about it. You can tell Rick is depressed that he was unable to save Crazy Walker Chick, unable to keep her from taking her own life. Hershel talks him through it. 

Check out how interesting this convo is:

Hershel: Some people are too far gone. You're not. You tried to help her.

Rick: How that woman wound up. I got close to that. If I lost Carl and Judith. If I lost this place--

Hershel: Not then, Rick. Not even then. You came back. Your boy came back. You get to come back. You do...

Whoa. Massive foreshadowing there. It's all about Carl and Judith. Rick thinks if he lost Carl, he couldn't come back, which is while he'll end up like Crazy Walker Chick for a time. But Hershel tells him that even then, he can come back. *So crazy to see stuff like this from 4x01 that STILL hasn't been fulfilled!*

In this scene, it's obvious that Rick doesn't entirely believe what Hershel says. He doesn't contradict him, but he's skeptical. It's not until he's facing the governor in 4x08 that he really learns and believes that people get to come back. He has to believe it at that point because he's begging the Governor not to bulldoze their home. That's why Hershel gives that heartbreaking smile just before he dies. It's the smile a mentor whose pupil just learned the lesson. 🙁

So how does all this tie together?

Think of it this way. 4a was one huge foreshadow, not only of Carl's death, but of Rick's reaction to it. At the beginning of S4, Rick is NOT the leader at the prison. And why is that? Because of Carl. It's like he tells Daryl when they're digging graves. Daryl is asking Rick if he'll come back and be a leader in the middle of the virus crisis again. 

Rick refuses because he's afraid of losing Carl. "I almost lost my boy..."  

But through the course of 4a, Rick slowly realizes he was wrong to not be the leader. By the time 4x08 happens and the prison falls, he's already decided to be the leader again. And after 4x08, he's back to being the sheriff.  So he gets to come back, even after he loses Carl.

Now let's talk Hershel. There are a few ways in which Hershel is paralleled with Beth in 4a. There's this picture on the wall that suggests Oceanside, the Java Saves cup, which is a Jesus reference. And even he and Michonne represent the prisoner exchange at Grady. But I've never been able to come up with a truly satisfactory reason why they use Hershel for some of these parallels.

Granted, he's a Greene. And her father. She's a lot like him. So maybe it’s not rocket science. But even so. Especially with things like the ship painting, why show that with Hershel? HE won't be alive when Oceanside comes into play. Why not show it with Maggie? Or Daryl? I think I finally understand why.  

Think of it this way: when Rick wasn't leading at the prison, who was? Daryl for one thing. 

They made a big deal about how Daryl was getting all kinds of love for helping people, and the prison's residents really looked up to him. As with all things Daryl, he was handling mostly the physical stuff. Hunting, feeding people, keeping the fences up, and bringing new people in (foreshadow of him scouting with Aaron for Alexandria, btw). But he wasn't the de facto leader. He wasn't the one everyone looked to for moral guidance and decision making. Who was?

Hershel. Even Daryl looked to him to make decisions and then Daryl got it done. 

So now we're going to see this again. It's a repeating arc. (I always say things foreshadow or parallel one another, but it's not like 4a wasn't its own arc. It totally was. If you don't believe me that this show repeats arcs, go check out @angelthefirst1's amazing metas about it. She'll convince you. ;D)

Rick will actually lose Carl this time, and have to step down from leadership because he can't handle it. Daryl definitely will lead. If you STILL haven't read @thegloriouscollectorlady's 4 Arcs for 4 Communities theory (even though I've told you to like a 100x ;D) do so now. She predicated months ago (has it been a year?) that Daryl and Beth would lead together.  

So you can see that Beth will actually step into Hershel's role at the prison. Daryl will lead with her and take care of the physical side of things, but Beth will be the de facto leader everyone looks to for guidance and decision making.  

More than that, I think just as Hershel taught Rick that he could come back, Beth will be instrumental in guiding Rick back and helping him come back from Carl's death.  

What was taught and foreshadowed by Hershel will be fulfilled in Hershel's daughter. The new sheriff in town. That's why Rick won't die.  

What I'm saying is that Gimple planned it this way from the get go. From 4x01 when Gimple took the reins of the show, he structured it as this massive redemption arc for Rick. We're now heading into the darkest part of that arc, when he actually loses Carl.  

But Beth is a huge part of that. She was never going to return until Rick needed her so desperately. This is why she's the coda. Why she's the song bird and the hope that will keep the group going when Rick simply can't. We really couldn't have understood all of this back in season 5. Or 6. Or 7.

I want to add in some thoughts that @thegloriouscollectorlady shared with me because they're just so damn beautiful.

Back to the iconic hat/new sheriff in town scene.  

TD has always argued that one of the reasons this MUST means something is that it seemed entirely unnecessary for Beth to be in the scene. On the surface, having this flashback seemed to be an explanation about how/why Rick became a farmer and about, you know, Carl. So we always argued that there had to be a reason for them to bring her into the scene. I know I've said many times that it might have made more sense for Michonne to be in the scene because she's closer to Rick and Carl. And again, the reason they didn't was because they needed to put the hat on Beth for symbolic purposes.  

But it's so much more than that now. Obviously her being there wasn't unnecessary, even putting that hat aside. She's tied up with this arc of Carl's death and Rick stepping down as leader.

And as @thegloriouscollectorlady observed, this scene becomes epic, even when it comes to just Rick and Hershel. They didn't put any other characters (I.e. Daryl, Michonne) into that scene because they didn't want them there. This scene is about the relationship between two men and their children.  

Remember that this happened before Rick and Daryl became brothers/Rickyl. And of course they were good friends back then and leaned heavily on one another, but their brotherly relationship didn't solidify until after this happened.

I would argue that at this point in time (the flashback) Rick might have actually been closer to Hershel than to Daryl. The relationship was different, as Hershel was his mentor, but he went to Hershel as a confidant in 4x01, not Daryl. (Just gonna throw out there that at that exact same time, Daryl went to Beth about Zack. Are we seeing the emotional intimacies in these relationships?)

So in this scene we have a representation that Hershel's child (Beth) will save Rick's child (Judith) at the moment he loses his son (Carl). The younger generation rises up as the older one falters. The new sheriff comes to town.

Do you see the plan? Gimple has been heading toward this since Daryl, Sasha and Ty hit the Big Spot and Michonne rode in on a horse.  

I also think this is why we’ve seen so many things pointing to S8. Yes, it has everything to do with Beth’s return, but I also think it’s because S8 is where we’ll start to see the fulfillment of the foreshadowing set up in S4.

Let me also say that, although I still think Carl’s S8 arc may lead to Beth, all of this has made me realize that it may just be symbolic too. Carl will “bring” Beth into her sheriff/leadership role. But it may still be literal as well.

Back to Kirkman. Kirkman has always said that he would eventually kill off Rick and Carl would take over. Though I've never been a fan of that idea, for some reason this has given me more respect for it. (No, that's not particularly logical, but it's the truth.)  

Kirkman always planned for Carl to inherit Rick's legacy of leadership. And it's his comic book series, so more power to him.  

But that was never true of Gimple. It's plain to me now that he never planned to follow Kirkman's lead in this regard. For him, it was always about Beth. We know he alone handled her arc in S2, purposely making her weak so we could see her become strong. Her character and her development were always his doing. His baby.  

He always planned that Beth would inherit Rick's leadership legacy. In short, Beth Greene was ALWAYS Gimple's sheriff.  

Mr. Gimple, you are a freaking rock star. I have more respect for you as a story teller than any other I've ever come across. And trust me, I've come across quite a lot.  

Bethyl on, my friends. Bethyl on! And do take some time to mourn the fact that in only two seasons, the Atlanta Five will become the Atlanta Three.

Update and Disclaimer: 

I wrote this post about three days ago, after the spoilers first broke, and I do stand behind most of what I wrote above.

Yesterday, this was found and posted in my FB group. Please note that some comments are either deleted or not visible, which is why it’s a little confusing.

So it suggests these spoilers are untrue.

Let me first say that I HOPE they are, because I don’t want to lose Carl. And you know, if I am, then this post is mostly wrong. ;D 

But I still lean toward them being true. Let me explain why. We’re really looking at one of three possible scenarios here.

1. The spoiler site is full of crap. We’ve seen them be wrong before, especially over Beth stuff. However, I tend to think that’s not the case here. I could be wrong, of course, but for one thing, they said in teh original spoilers that it was unconfirmed, and we should take it with a grain of salt. It’s usually when they’re being super arrogant about things that they’re wrong. So I kind of think this is true, or at least they really believe it is. 

Also, they make a good point in the spoilers that they pieced both Bob and Beth’s deaths and departure from the show this way and were right both times. For things this big, they actually do have a good track record. It’s more the details that they get wrong.

2. Second possibility, the dude saying it’s fake is full of crap. We’ve seen AMC do things before to contain spoilers, and this could be that kind of attempt. This is definitely huge and something they would have wanted to keep under wraps. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if this is a tactic.

3. Both are right. Kind of. It could be that the dude is right about Chandler being on set and on the call sheets, but Carl is still dying. While I can’t back it up as fact (I don’t have a link or reference) I know I’ve read before that both Sarah Wayne Callies and Irone Singleton (Lori and T-Dog) were kept coming back to set periodically and were still on the callsheets after their deaths. That was to hide the fact that they’ve left the show. They’ve done this less in recent seasons as the actors want to move on to other projects quickly, but Chandler is young and going to school and it wouldnt’ be hard to have him stick around for appearances.

That said, my FB peeps who follow the Tumblrs of locals who troll the spoiler site have told me the locals have reported that they really haven’t seen Chandler in months. Something to consider. If he was there, chances are quite good they’d have seen him. But not absolute, of course.

So overall, this means that either could be right. Or both. Carl could be alive. Or dead. I’m kind of 50/50 on it right now.

I decided to go ahead and post this because, overall, I stand behind the symbolism. Obviously if Carl doesn’t die, the stuff about Carl’s death isn’t true. And not to sound insensitive, but it might be just a detail. Maybe Carl’s not dying, but SOMEone is (Michonne? Judith?) Rick’s red-rimmed eyes (damn those things are red!) and the cross he sits under do suggest a funeral and devastation on his part. Maybe Carl isn’t dying but something will happen that’s so debilitating, and Rick blames himself for it forwhatever reason, that he still loses his confidence and steps down as leader. 

I don’t know. But overall, no matter what the details are, I still think this template is a thing and that it will pave the way for Beth’s arc, which TD has been waiting for since season 4. 

If you got all the way through this, YOU, are a freaking rock star! 

[isitandwonder]

I’ve read Rachel Talalay’s post on her tumblr re: TST and I have to say I really appreciate someone from the ‘creators’ engaging with fandom without ridiculing or insulting us, but, as it seems, out of curiosity and genuine interest. This is such a wholesome attitude for a change! Only, I’m way too shy and in no psition to address an established and experienced director as Ms Talalay (yep, I simply don’t dare to.). But I am a viewer and recipientof her work, so I’d like to chip in my 2 cents.

Her post got me thinking. She writes that she deliberately refused to read TFP when directing TST. If I understood correctly, it was because her characters don’t know their future either, and she wanted to keep that perspective.

Of course, she is fully justified to make her own artistic decisions. Only, in retrospect, I’m not sure that approach really worked so well. Not because of not knowing that there would be a mad sister incarcerated on an island and  that Sherlock would in the end befriend her... not because of the future outcome of the show.

But because of what TFP revealed about Sherlock’s past. I think knowing about Victor/Redbeard/the well, and incorporating this knowledge into TST, could have made the whole thing a bit more explicable, a bit easier to swallow.

For example, Sherlock suddenly has premonitions in TST. He never had before on the show or in canon. It wasn’t that ACD was averse to such things (he believed in fairies and seances), but it didn’t fit in his stance at Holmes and detective fiction as logical and reasonable. So, where does this supernatural element stem from in Sherlock?

Those premonitions are linked to water. Rememeber the promo picture of 221b? TST starts with a shot of the aquarium and the story of Samara = destiny + water. Sherlock again experiences a watery premonition at the Wellsborough’s, combined with a shot of the table that reminds me of the well, while dealing with a missing, dead child.

Was this just foreshadowing the end of the episode, the showdown at the aquarium? Or couldn’t this have been foreshadowing the revelation in TFP of Victor = Redbeard, drowned by Eurus in a well? Hmm... not if you don’t know about this. But it was hammered home in the trailers that this series would deal with Sherlock’s past - what made him. Wouldn’t it have been crucial for directing an episode that led up to this reveal that the director had known about these aspects of Sherlock’s past? Wouldn’t that have been fair to the viewers, to give them a chance to figure it out by leaving hints for them? This is what makes one appeal of the Holmes stories - if they get explained to you in the end, you ask yourself: Of course, why didn’t I see this? But in S4, we didn’t have a chance. Because evreyone seems to have stumbled though the story in the dark.

In TFP, all the water in the show - from the pool in TGG to Reichenbach in TAB - is connected to Sherlock’s childhood loss of Victor and his search for a replacement of such a friend ever since (hello, John). But this just seemed so subsequently invented, almost forced onto the narrative. Because, for example, Sherlock fights an assassin in a pool in TST - but there is no premonition in this scene, no sign that water could mean something, anything to him. Now, I really appreciate the aesthetic of a dripping wet Benedict Cumberbatch - but this scene could perhaps have tied in better with the whole childhood/Victor plot if the director had known about this plot? Also, the line with the memory stick: “But she destroyed it” - accompanied with a flashback to John throwing the drive in the fire in HLV - this might actually have been planned as foreshadowing the reveal of Eurus destroying Sherlock’s childhood and home, and therefore a hint for the viewers where Sherlock’s premonitions came from (WATER!) - but without knowing this, it wasn’t emphasised enough and became just another odd plot hole.

On the other hand, they could have gone for true punch to the gut, nothing foreshadowed, just BAM! right in your face - here’s a dead childhood friend, drowned, and Sherlock suppressed everything about that and his sister now take that, audience! But they didn’t. The writers wanted to be clever. Redbeard features since S3 - only, I don’t think the writers had a plan how to exactly solve this narrative streak back then. And this ‘making the story up as we go’ bleeds through again and again - and perhaps even more than necessary, if the outcome had been known to all the participants. This could ahve been a chance to tie up at least some of the mess made by the writers.

I read a post a while ago that said the secrecy of the writers killed the show. I think it’s true when you look at Mary Morstan, for example. I doubt that Jeremy Lovering, who directed her in TEH, or Ms Abbington herself knew what would happen to the character in HLV, directed by Nick Hurran. Now, such surprises, the uncertainty, can add suspense and a flirring sense of vagueness and unrealness to a story - which was a great thing in Broadchurch. The doubt, the mistrust, added to the feeling that no one was save, that everyone could have been the child’s killer. But for Sherlock? Mary was just a side character - this form of surprising suspense asigned way too much weight to her in an already complicated narrative. Why?

And then her end in TST! I’d really like to ask Ms Talalay if this was done purposefully ridiculous, as a form of satirical comment on Mary’s arc? Because it made no sense. Mary transformed from a sassy girlfriend to ruthless assassin to selfless hero. In one episode, she shoots Sherlock (without a good reason) and in the next she saves him without necessity, sacrificing herself without good reason either. Now, if the directing of this scene should subtly emphasize the inadequacies of Mary’s arc - I bow deeply to Ms Talalay’s directing choices, while making the most of a ridiculous script.

This secrecy prevented the actors from engaging with their characters. They only do the show every odd year for a few episodes. Retconning everything they might have thought up as a backstory for their character with every new script is not helping to get a grip on your character, I imagine? And it was done with Ben as well, as Mr Gatiss said in post mortem after TAB. He revealed something to Ben during the filming of TAB (presumably about Redbeard not being a dog?) that Ben shouldn’t have known back then. Keeping such big points a secret, while later playing on them, thereby forcing some foreshadowing onto an already established narrative, caused more plotholes  than it gave explanations, because it prevented the actors, actresses and directors to incorporate this knowledge into their acting and directing choices. And this is not a good idea on a show like Sherlock, that has to make some sense and can’t prevail endlessly in the realm of vague suspense - based on... nothing , apparently.

A series like Shelrock needs explanations. That’s what detective fiction is about. That’s what a Holmes story is about. Logic and reasoning, solving the mystery, not creating one after another until everything is muddled up.

I checked back. S1 and S2 - the series which, for me and many others, still work best - were largely made by Paul McGuigan. He directed 4 out of 6 episodes. TBB was made by Eurus Lyn, who’d already worked with Moffat on Doctor Who. So, both directors were involved with the series long-time or knew how the writer(s) worked, could develope arches - they knew where they were going with this. And that added to the cohesiveness of the narrative. Bringing in Toby Hayns for TRF was also a good idea. It needed someone new to sweep everything up and kill the main character - fresh perspective, new approaches. But after that, every episode had a different director. And the scripts came late. No preparation, while the times between the series grew longer and longer.

Only for TLD - for me the best episode in S4 - they allowed Nick Hurran back, who’d also done HLV. And to me that is noticeable, even in the character of Mary. Because he had worked on the story and the characters before. He had some ideas where they came from and where they might be going (turned out it wasn’t right, but it did fit at least with the previous episodes). Even for John... he’s angry in HLV, and still angry in TLD. I can see at least some connection there.

So, in short, I think too much secrecy killed the show, because it lost course and purpose. No one seemed to have known where this was going (how could they?) - and this led to opening up narrative sidelines via acting and directing that weren’t followed up, because they were never intended to. It created a vagueness that allows now for almost every interpretation you might throw at the show to seem valid, because there surely can be found a line or shot that supports it in all this jumble. Because everybody seems to have done the best they could, bringing in their own ideas - but no one coordinated this. It was all secrets and rug pulls - but no cohesive story telling, at least after S2.

This might be a chance for fandom to take away form the show what you want to see in it - but it’s just so not Sherlock Holmes that I wonder why they didn’t make their own show about three people suffering, marriage, childhood trauma, toture, assassins, spies, gay pining (or not), spiced with horror elements, and just called it something else after S2?

Oh, and I’d really like to know what Ms Talalay thinks of Mary’s end-monologue: “Who you are doesn’t matter, it’s all about the legend.” Is that true? Did she see the characters like this? Does she approve? Perhaps I should dare to ask her after all?

[isitandwonder]

What was it all about, anyway?

Greg Lestrade is allowed to bookend Sherlock’s story arch. In ASiP, he tells John and therefore us:

LESTRADE: And because Sherlock Holmes is a great man. And I think one day, if we’re very, very lucky, he might even be a good one. 

This comes full circle in TFP. when it’s hammered home (got, writing is my passion!):

POLICE OFFICER: Well, he’s a great man, sir. LESTRADE: No, he’s better than that. He’s a good one.

So, we have Sherlock’s, and therefore the series, narrative as his journey from great man to good man.

Only, as @wssh-watson has pointed out, this story is already copmplete at the end of S2. Furthermore, one could argue it was never a journey anyway, that Sherlock is just hiding behind the mask of the high-functoning sociopath, as he saved John Watson at the first night they met (turning the suicidal army doctor into a beautifully giggling, amazed friend, giving him his purpose in life back = saving Sherlock Holmes).

So, it’s not the outward change that is important then (other people recognising Sherlock as the good man he is) but his own acceptance of himself as a good person, allowing for emotions, allowing himself to get involved? Alone protects me /  I don’t have friends / Caring is not an advantage is to be overcome by Sherlock steadily getting more and more human, until he can finally openly be who he really is?

Hmmm... let’s take a closer look:

In TGG, we get the following exchange between Sherlock and John:

JOHN: I hope you’ll be very happy together. SHERLOCK: Sorry, what?  JOHN: There are lives at stake, Sherlock – actual human lives... Just – just so I know, do you care about that at all? SHERLOCK: Will caring about them help save them? JOHN: Nope. SHERLOCK: Then I’ll continue not to make that mistake. JOHN: And you find that easy, do you? SHERLOCK: Yes, very. Is that news to you? JOHN: No. No.  SHERLOCK: I’ve disappointed you. JOHN: That’s good – that’s a good deduction, yeah. SHERLOCK: Don’t make people into heroes, John. Heroes don’t exist, and if they did, I wouldn’t be one of them.

This is the scene at 221b after the old Lady and her neighbours were killed by Moriarty’s bomb. We saw in the scene with Lestrade amd John, as the phone went dead, that Sherlock did care in that moment. But now, he’s pushed his shock and grief aside to function better, to solve the case. Because, as he says, caring about them won’t save other future victims.

It’s a bit like this exchange from earlier in the episode when Sherlock tries to solve the Carl Powers case to save the woman in the car:

JOHN: Try and remember there’s a woman here who might die. SHERLOCK: What for? This hospital’s full of people dying, Doctor. Why don’t you go and cry by their bedside and see what good it does them?

Of course, this is to show us Sherlock as the cold high-functioning sociopath he likes to see himself, as he prefers to pass himself of for. And, of course, it fails, because we do see that Sherlock does care, but that he is also able to detach himself from his feelings to do his work and save other people.

Therefore, what Sherlock does in these scenes, depite John’s disapproval, is in fact the right way. He helps others. He feels compassion. He only doesn’t show it like other people would do.

We see this emotional involvement reigned in by rational reasoning carried to extremes at the end of S2, when Sherlock sacrifices himself for his friends as he jumps off Bart’s. It’s his life weighed against that of Mrs Hudson’s, Greg’s and John’s. Sherlock doesn’t make this decision easily - therefore, of course, he’s not a sociopath - but he makes it anyway and sees it through to the bitter end. Between grief and nothing, I’ll take grief. John grieving for him is better than John being killed by Moriarty’s snipers. Sherlock can only choose between a rock and a hard place, so he selflessly decides for what’s best for others.

And it get’s the desired result: His friends survive, the snipers pack up and leave. This whole decision making process is based on Sherlock’ deep love for his friends. Because he cares! So, caring about them makes a difference, even back in S2. Sherlock has come full circle and did a slefless deed to save the people he loves. He fulfilled his arc.

John even says so at the graveyard at the end of TRF:

You ... you told me once that you weren’t a hero. Umm ... there were times I didn’t even think you were human, but let me tell you this: you were the best man, and the most human ... human being that I’ve ever known and no-one will ever convince me that you told me a lie, and so ... There.  I was so alone, and I owe you so much.

Wouldn’t this have been enough? What was all the torment and suffering of S3 and S4 for? Sherlock had already shown to be a good man by the end of S2 by sacrificing himself and his happiness for others!

Because, what do we get in S3 and S4? Just proof that sentiment really clouds Sherlock’s judgement, that caring is not an advantage, that selfless love doesn’t pay off:

Sherlock’s plan to take Moriarty’s network down, to ultimately save his friends, gets him tortured.

Sherlock sees that Mary is a liar in his very first deduction of her but doesn’t connect the dots or makes anything of this insight.

Sherlock sees that she has rather special skills for a nurse, but doesn’t draw the right conclusions, therefore allowing his best friend and the love of his life to marry a dangerous assassin. Headlong into harm I call that.

Said assassin kills Sherlock as he offers her help - without ever facing any punishment for her deed. John even forgives his wife, thereby kind of ultimately betraying Sherlock.

No wonder Sherlock turns to drugs after John’s wedding.

Sherlock continues to try to protect Mary, to help her, until she, without any need, takes a bullet for him. Afterwards, Sherlock even feels responsible for Mary’s death.

In the aftermath, Sherlock takes all the abuse from John because he thinks he deserves it.

On top of that, Sherlock relapses again after John refuses to talk to him and kind of cuts him of.

In TLD, it is Sherlock who has to comfort John, while no-one has ever comforted him for all he’s suffered and sacrificed.

Emotionally compromised, Sherlock takes way too long to brake Eurus cycle of sick experiments.

Sherlock’s judgement is clouded and he doesn’t attempt to flee or resist Eurus because he thinks there’s a little girl on a plane that needs his help.

All this profes to me that loe on this show, when it comes to Sherlock, is truly a dangerous disadvantage found on the loosing side. Becaues, you know, S1-S2 Sherlock would quickly have seen through Mary and warned John (as he did with Molly in regard to Jim from IT). S1-S2 Sherlock would have called Eurus’s trick with the plane (at the latest when the girl couldn’t tell him her destination). He would have dismantled Eurus lie/fantasy far sooner, thereby saving Molly, Mycroft, John and himself. But now, in S4, sentimental, emotional Sherlock makes mistakes as his judgement is clouded by feelings and he truly acts like the idiot Mycroft calls him.

MYCROFT: Is that sentiment talking? SHERLOCK: No.  It’s me. MYCROFT: Difficult to tell the difference these days.

But not even this is a new development, validating S4. We already had this with Magnussen, where Sherlock thought shooting himw as the only option left (the psychological outfall of this murder was never followed up, like so many things in S3-S4). At Appledore, Sherlock was blindsided by his love for John and prepared to do anything for him (which we also knew since TRF).

So, what we are shown in S3 and S4 is that caring is truly not an advantage. It just leads to violence, heartbreak and pain. And Sherlock gains nothing by his suffering, he doesn’t grow or learn from his experiences. He just repeats the same mistakes over and over again. It’s a vicious circle in which he, contrary to the rules of fairy tales, where the hero is redeemed in the end, is  just repeatedly hurt, abused, toyed with and humiliated. He nearly looses everything (his mind, John, 221b), only to gain a crazy sister he never even missed before. 

Sherlock’s destiny seems to be to play violin with a person that is even more disturbed and detached from reality than he was at the beginning of the series, surrounded by a family he didn’t give a toss about in earlier episodes (on the contrary, in comparison to his biological family, Sherlock had built a surrogate family of his choosing: Mrs Hudson, Greg, Molly, John [That’s why he stays!]. But all this seems forgotten when the Holmes’s meet up in Sherrinford to watch Eurus and Sherlock play violin). What is the message here? That it truly doesn’t matter who you’ve struggled to be, that biological family claims you in the end, if you like it or not? That you can’t escape the family you were born in? That you owe your familym even if they hid a sister from you that killed your best friend just out of envy? That ‘I made me’ was just wishfull thinking? 

This is not emotional progress, this is locking Sherlock up in a glass cage like Eurus’s cell, keeping him away from an ordinary life with friends and the promise of love, burdening him with yet another lost soul to save (who might be beyond redemption anyway).

It’s a bit like the end of TLD: He’s Sherlock Holmes, so he wears the damned hat, even if he loathes it. But what can you do?

*I want to break free!* - Oh, no, sorry, that was the line of the baddie...

Is that truly the message the show wants to give?

Thanks to @callie-ariane for the transcripts.