#the krakow & jeffcoat conversation at the urinal was actually in 4x07 infinite game. but otherwise great knowledge by this interviewer

[nothingunrealistic]

KING: The fourth season of Billions just wrapped up on Showtime, and those places I mentioned — the NYSE, East River Park, Morgenstern’s, Una Pizza Napoletana — they became the sets in the drama we’ve come to love, focused on hedge fund billionaire Bobby Axelrod, and his longtime nemesis — and this season, his frenemy — former US Attorney for the Southern District and now State Attorney General Chuck Rhoades. Fictional characters. Real-life backdrops.

—————

KING: Mike Wagner’s also an athlete who likes to play injured. He’s drugged at the consulates of foreign governments. He gets plastered with Wendy Rhoades to console her about maybe losing her medical license. His pride is wounded after he dresses in drag on an ill-fated attempt to join Kappa Beta Phi.

WAGS: Michael Wagner. Maybe it’s just under Wags. I’m a neophyte. DOOR GUY: Not seeing it. WAGS: I have the invitation right here — NUSSFAUR: Say gorgonzola. Oh, you’re gonna look pretty in Page Six. WAGS: Nussfaur. You sent this. NUSSFAUR: For you to endure the humiliation, Wagner. Not of wearing a dress, but of being an interloper. A trespasser. A buttinsky. A social climber who has to watch the ladder pulled up right in front of your grasping, outstretched arms.

KING: “Wagner,” uttered like “Newman.” The guy is a glutton for punishment. What drives the man?

KOPPELMAN: First of all, David Costabile, who you mentioned earlier, is just such an incredible actor, and brings a humanity to Wags — because, you know, if we met the real-life Wags, I’m not sure we would be all that charmed by him. Wags is an incredibly loyal person. Um, you know, while we’re making the show, I don’t talk that much about what drives the characters in a forum that, um, that the actors might hear. I want the actors to be able to interpret it and ask questions, and I don’t want to lead them. I will say that we’re constantly asking ourselves the question of what drives people like this. What makes the pursuit of this particular kind of money, power, influence so alluring to a subset of people? Some people are — realize, at a certain point, they have enough and turn their attention to other interests. These are people seemingly incapable of not competing, incapable of leaving the game. So, Wags is certainly a loyal person. Axe means the world to him. Being in the game means a lot to him. Winning means a lot to him. But I think, this season, we saw Wags’ own sense of the impermanence of our time here. And I think that that’s a hint to, uh, part of his psychology.

—————

KING: It was such a wrenching season for [Wendy]. Every, every episode, you know, brought new challenges, you know, until the final one. I think the most brutal image of the whole season for me, based on, sort of, the way I think about life, is that lone moment in the Brooklyn townhouse. Chuck has come home after one of those later nights and sees the warm cherry pie on the kitchen island. Maggie is nowhere to be found. And, you know, he grabs his kitchen implements and is about to dive into it, as only Chuck can, before the real estate broker comes in. The way that Paul Giamatti gets into his method, did that pie have to be actually warmed to attract his nose?

KOPPELMAN: No. Also, it was an apple pie, but everybody, um… it’s great because it’s whatever pie you would most want to be there. It’s like the Rorschach pie. Like, whatever you think it would be. If you need it to be a warm cherry pie, then it was. It happened to be an apple pie. Um, no. I mean, these actors, they’re so… I mean, you’re talking about some of the best actors in the, in the world, some of the best actors ever to be on television. And no. Paul could play it… if I put one of these dusty old books there and said, “That’s a pie,” Paul could play that if he had to. And I was like, “We’re going to CGI the pie in later,” he’d be like, “Okay. No problem.”

KING: So congratulations on the wrapping of the fourth season. [KOPPELMAN: Thanks.] How does the weight that you felt during the season, and the corresponding lifting of that weight when the work is over, compare to three seasons prior?

KOPPELMAN: No, I mean, it’s always… I’m a totally different person during the season and not in the season. So, between seasons 3 and 4, David and I had about three days off. So, we finished season three and then we… so, you finish the shooting, but then — so everybody gets to go home, but David and I have to finish editing and mixing — with our, with editors and mixers. We have to finish the entire post-production process. And so, between seasons 3 and 4, Showtime asked us if, if we could get our show ready sooner. They had reasons that they wanted it on the air when they did. And we said, “Yeah, but we are gonna need two months after season four, or we can’t… we have to find a way to get away and let our brains begin to just imagine again and experience other things and just take long walks and swim.” You know, like, literally just do anything other than write Billions. And the second that the season is written, each time, the two of us can breathe. We feel such a heavy obligation to make it the very strongest version of the show that we can come up with. And that really starts with making sure that the scripts are great, and that we’re going to give these actors stuff that they really want to play, and that — we know we have these devoted fans. There are shows with a bigger audience, but there are not many shows with a more devoted audience of people who watch the show three, four, five times and pick up on every line and every reference and care deeply. So, we feel this tremendous… it’s not pressure because both of us are so grateful we get to do this, but it is… it feels like a duty and an obligation to serve all these people. So, the moment it’s written, we’re both able to sort of exhale and say, “Okay. Well, we’ve done that part.” Then we have to make sure that, you know, we realize that vision that we’ve laid out when we’re shooting and cutting it, but then we’re able to chill out.

—————

KING: But before we cast season 4, you know, into the Showtime archives, I just want to do a quick spin through some of the highlights [KOPPELMAN: Sure.] that I felt through, because we’re going to put this up in a couple days and people are still kind of processing things that they saw. Let’s start with Chickentown. Episode 3. Your homage to Chinatown and the vehicle that allowed Kelly AuCoin’s ascension really to a series regular and more screen time. Let’s hear a little clip from it.

[“Chicken Bill” plays] AXE: Bill. Bill, what are you about to do? DOLLAR BILL: What I always do for you: whatever I have to. WAGS: Yes, but specifically, what are you about to do right now? AXE: What’s in the bag, Bill, what’s in the bag? DOLLAR BILL: A capon with a case of H5N1B. Just enough to freeze transport on a few hundred thousand infected birds. Prices will skyrocket.

KING: H5N1B. Brian, how did you get smart on poultry to write that episode?

KOPPELMAN: You know, we have a writers’ room, Dave and I. And one of the writers told us about various chicken indices and the ways in which they’re, um, they’re forecast, you know, the amount of chickens is forecast. And we all just loved it. And then as soon as it came up, one of us, either Dave or me said, “Atlantic City.” We had to use the Springsteen song. And then the whole thing just flowed from there. That episode was, the first draft was written by Lenore Zion, who’s a credited writer on the episode. Did a great job. And, Kelly — by the way, Kelly AuCoin became a regular on the show at the end of last season. We made him a regular, um, because his work each season had just been so good. And each season we gave him a little bit more to do, and he always rose to the task. So, we were thrilled to make him part of the regular cast of the show. And he really delivered this year.

KING: A Proper Sendoff. Episode 5. I could watch David Strathairn forever, but Chuck sent him six feet under in style. And then you, you foreshadowed the finale with the way that Bobby sent John Rice out to sea. This device that you have of getting people out of their comfort zone or out of their control environment, leaving the phones in the, in the back of the SUV, getting out onto Bobby’s boat because they can have some real bro time together. In fact, it’s all part of the plot.

KOPPELMAN: Well, yeah. We’re going to use any… I mean, Levien likes to say we’re a snout-to-tail operation, and he’s right. We like to, we will use all, every part of the pig. And so, any storytelling device, we are going to take advantage of. Yeah, there are various ways in which we, we sort of foreshadowed the end of the season. And we’re always doing that too, you know. Um, the sites that write about the show will often point out that there’s — you know, if we, if there’s some casual little look between two characters, or there’s something said that you don’t quite… you know, if you think about season 2, when Chuck is out with Ira and these two women, Taiga and another one, it’s the first time you hear Ice Juice mentioned. Ira says something about, “I have these gift cards to Ice Juice.” And then that doesn’t play out until, you know, Episode 11 of the show, of that season. And so, we’re always looking to reward — like, the casual viewer can come in and just watch it and it’s entertaining and fun, but the more you bring to it and the more you’re in, the more we’re going to try to give you little treats along the way, little Easter eggs along the way, little things to pick up on to make it all add up for you at the end, that will reward your paying super close attention.

KING: Maximum Recreational Depth. That was Episode 6. You’re using Clancy Brown and Danny Strong at a urinal to unleash Hard Bob on Doug [Mason]’s dream of a business venture. We have the best urinal in town right around the corner. And April looked at it for potential for shooting that scene, but it wasn’t enough room for the camera. But, but this, the Hard Bob character was one of my greatest memories of walk-on this summer.

KOPPELMAN: Chelcie Ross is an incredible actor. And I mean, that’s one of those great things. David and I came up with the character, Hard Bob Beaufort, ten years ago. We just were sitting in this old office we used to have, which was atop of a bridge club. We had the top floor of this really old bridge club in Manhattan. And we would, one of us, we just started riffing one day on this… at the time, in our minds, he was, like, probably a Texas oil man, but we just had this idea of a guy named Hard Bob, who brooked no bullshit. And when we were, when we were writing this episode, we were sitting with Adam Perlman, one of our, who’s our lieutenant on the show, a co-executive producer of the show. And we were talking about Hard Bob Beaufort. And we realized, oh, we could use this character and, and take the character, instead of writing a whole thing about him, and put him in the middle of this. And it was incredibly satisfying to have Chelcie — and then immediately, that day, said, “The only guy who can play this is Chelcie Ross.” And then we went out and got him to do it, which was super exciting.

KING: And then there was Fight Night. Episode 8. A not-so-pivotal scene filmed right here at the New York Stock Exchange, but it got Stacey her first theatrical line. So, we were all giddy about that. But did you channel Sylvester Stallone when you were writing the boxing scenes?

[“T.N.T.” plays] RICH EISEN: That’s not legal. MENERY: I’m gonna be honest, viewers. This is probably one of the pussiest fights I’ve ever seen in my life. RICH EISEN: They stopped fighting before the bell. And now Mafee’s vomiting. JOCKO: You got to keep going right now! SPYROS: You got to keep going! JOCKO: Let’s go! Make it happen! DEONTAY: Keep going! SPYROS: You got to keep going! DEONTAY: Let’s go, baby! RICH EISEN: That’s the Bald Bull Charge from Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out!!

KING: I mean, might as well be Rocky 34.

KOPPELMAN: Big props to Rich Eisen and Bob Menery who commentated — [KING: Rich is great.] …on that stuff. Both those guys killed it for us.

KING: And then there was this finale, Extreme Sandbox. Let’s start with the extreme sandbox itself. Bobby gets a lot done by luring his targets out of town.

CHUCK: Off to…? WENDY: Uh. Day trip. With Rebecca. State changer. Or something. CHUCK: Good. Yeah. You let those shoulders drop. WENDY: I don’t think they’ll drop ‘til the exact terms of my suspension have been announced. And probably not ‘til it’s all over. CHUCK: While you’re gone, I will be hard at it trying to get those terms relaxed or done away. Would have been easier ahead of time. But there must be a lever out there.

KING: Let those shoulders drop. The helicopter brings them out to the extreme sandbox. You’ve got Mark Cuban in a cameo. And you filmed some great scenes there. Having Mark bring this idea into the show, what was the thought about bringing that device into the show?

KOPPELMAN: Well, Mark and I first met at a basketball camp for adults, like, eighteen years ago, and have been friendly ever since. And so, and Mark has been a great counselor to Dave and me, about billionaires, and about the psychology of billionaires, and so, and about the psychology of the business world. Each season, we sit down with Mark or we get on the phone and we sort of talk about the state of play. And we do that with a bunch of different people, but Mark’s one of the most valuable because he’s an insider and an outsider of the world, right? He’s wealthy… he’s as wealthy or wealthier than a lot of these people, but he doesn’t make his money in the way that they do. Yet he interacts with them all the time. So, he has great insight into the way billionaires in the hedge fund and private equity space and VC space live. And we, so, and then Mark was in seasons 2, 3, and then season 4. I think as long as we make the show, my guess is Mark will make an appearance each season. But he didn’t bring up extreme sandbox. What happens is, when we get the idea for what we want to have Mark do, we call him and we say, “Well, here’s what we’re thinking. Does it make sense to you?” And, um, extreme sandbox had come up in the room as a thing that they could… you know, we didn’t want Rebecca to take Wendy just to a spa. We didn’t want them to, you know, to just cut to them, putting mud masks on their faces, you know, the kind of thing that a show might do with two female characters. We wanted them to do something that was much more like, no, no, no, these are two alpha businesspeople who happen to be women. So, what would they, what would be be something different? Extreme sandbox came up. David and I loved the idea of that as an episode title, an idea, the idea of these people all living in an extreme sandbox or treating their lives like that. So, it worked thematically for us, metaphorically for us. So, when we called Mark, we were like, “Hey, can you help us make this happen?” And then he hooked us up with the extreme sandbox person. And then that all happened that way.

—————

KING: So, all this work starts anew in July. The writers’ room will reconvene. You’ve probably found or begun to assemble those that are going to spend all that time with you in that office as you crank out these twelve episodes. What are the first couple weeks like of blocking out a season?

KOPPELMAN: Sure. The first thing, David and I will usually have a couple of thematic ideas about the season. We’ll start talking to the room about that, getting their opinions. And we’ll try to come up with a idea that’s just for us, sort of a sentence about what the theme of the year is. And then we try to test the ideas, the story ideas against that theme, the character ideas against that theme. And, and, and that theme comes from the characters, comes from where we think the characters are and where they need to go. So, it’s a pretty the first few weeks are very open, very blue sky, let’s just figure out all the possibilities. And then we start honing it.

—————

KING: Your characters have experimented with all sorts of self-improvement techniques. Wags’ hugging therapy this season comes to mind. But simple meditation hasn’t seemed to work for any of them. And yet, it seems to work so well for you. Why?

KOPPELMAN: Well, I’m not sure it hasn’t worked for them. But, I mean, they’re successful on the terms they want to be, or at least Axe is, and he’s the one we see meditating the most.

—————

KOPPELMAN: Once in a while, like when we referenced what Rush albums are the best albums on the show, I’ll put something out there for a purpose, which is: I want to get the answer right. So I wanted to know what two different types of Rush fans would think. I knew what I thought, but I wanted to get answers. And so, I got a thousand answers to this question, you know, what are the four best Rush albums? And there, I was just trying to be very careful and respectful of Rush fandom, because Rush… as I said, that day, I’ve seen Rush seven times in concert. I’ve watched both documentaries multiple times, I know the albums by heart. But I’m not really a Rush fan compared to Rush fans. Rush fans are way, way more serious than I am. So, I just wanted to get the answer right for when Taylor and Axe were going to discuss it.