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mononijikayu · 2 years

Text

chapter xvii.

chapter xvii.

Rating: M

Warning: Targaryen Incest, Depictions of Violence, Death and Murder;

Summary: In which DAEMON TARGARYEN plays the villain for the people he loves;

[In the many years of his eventful life, many claimed that daemon targaryen had been someone who was evil, vicious and eager for greed. however through reading through the personal missives and stories from the family that had known the prince. there paints a different picture. to his remaining granddaughter he was the world. daena targaryen had recalled her youth clearly. she spoke fondly of her first meeting with him when she was but a child. he held her tenderly to ride upon the blood wyrm on his fine saddle. how her grandfather had been eager to indulged them to play upon dragonstone’s dune of sands in sunny days. how he had encouraged her and his daughters lady rhaena and baela, to do as they willed. even to take to the sword practice like all his grandsons. though his words often do not say much, his actions showed his truth. he loved them more than anything, she said to her granddaughters once. and the things he did, the worst of the worst, had been done for love.]

- maester aeron targaryen, adust;

A D U S T m a s t e r l i s t

< you and i burn together or we shall die trying >

chapter i / chapter ii / chapter iii / chapter iv / chapter v

chapter vi / chapter vii / chapter viii / chapter ix / chapter x

chapter xi / chapter xii / chapter xiii / chapter xiv / chapter xv

chapter xvi / chapter xvii / chapter xviii

In truth, this is not how he had seen his life to be. Yet, there was no semblance of regret in him. No, he could not resent the thought of his legacy before his eyes, blossoming like a flower in spring. A small smile on his thin lips as his arms were gripped tightly around his chest, gazing across the piling white sand gazing at his grandchildren as they trained under the intensity of torchlight. The children were insistent, gathering with the vigor one would not find at such early hours in the dawn. It was better than waiting out on the corridors, like dervishes lined in the storm of courtiers out by the birthing chamber.

Daemon Targaryen did not have it in him to reject their request. They were eager to do something, to play his games. At first he tried not to cave, sending them off to bed to rest. Yet it had not been minutes gone by, they had come to drag their grandmother by their side. Daemon would not win against them, his wife’s lilac eyes pleading with him warmly on the young children’s behalf. He could not help but smirk at the memory. The children were too clever for their own sake, too eager to be wise to find whom they should run to, for all of the realm knew it well – he can never reject Mellara Targaryen.

It has been known to others that the rogue prince did not have a heart, or that his heart has been corrupted by devils he had conjured out of his own desires and greed. Such whispers often came from his brother’s wife, that harlot of Hightower and her cunt of a father. Yet they did not know him very well.These fools only knew what he showed them, what he was willing to show them. The truest parts of himself belonged to his family, those who cared to consider him as such.Daemon had no reason to show him his most vulnerable echoes. Those strangers deserved none of him. They were not his family, he does not consider them so. But here, on the isle where he and his wife were both born, this was where his family lay.

Such as these young ones, the brood of his blood gathered before him in eager combat in the mock games he would make for them. Rhaena cheered in the corner with young Luke for Jace, whilst the younger Daena and young Joffrey cheered on the heir of Blackhall. The twins of Riverrun merely cackled in the corner, their round finished and done, making bets on who would win. Daemon snickered at the sight, reminding him of him and Mellara in their youth during the old King’s tourneys.The crinkle in their blue Tully eyes were too much their mother, he thinks.

Daemon had long ago created these games for his only son years ago when he had been younger, eagerly enjoying them with his servants and or his young Tully brothers. But now his son was no longer a boy. Now, his own son who stood taller than he was now a grown man. He was too busy now to be a part of such games. Prince consort, a sailor, a warrior – a husband who is supporting his wife at her side as she births their first child. Daemon Targaryen had known it best to relieve his son from worrying about the children. There were no words that needed to be said, he knew it better to do his part and keep the children away from the situation.

Baelon gritted his teeth as he lunged towards Jace, who raised his shield upwards with his feet behind him holding the defense strong. Daemon had not thought it a bad move, but Jacaerys had not accounted for Baelon’s figure being heavy and firm. He was not surprised when Baelon used his other hand to support his wooden sword’s hold and moved forward to bridge the gap between his and his brother’s body. Pushing forward, Baelon yelled and moved his strength and forced his elder to stumble back. But the elder prince held his position, though with struggle.

Daemon whistled, the scrunched features of stubbornness in the heir of Rhaenyra as he forced his legs to stay in his defense and challenge the weight of the prince before him. Even in features and stubbornness, the young heir to the throne was just like his mother. Each time, the young boy was determined to rise above the challenges before him, eager to win and to win fairly. Like a prestigious knight known for his honor. He did not believe in such a thing, not when he had seen it all for himself what being a knight truly means.

But Daemon knew better than to put honor atop the pedestal. He knew what war looked like, what it needed. How it determines who lives or who dies. Battles can turn brutal, inhumane – more animalistic than anything else. One must be determined to cheat, to dissolve honor for the sake of survival. One must be a killer, a dragon. A brute of a beast. Honor will not save you. These broods of his were clever, but they lacked the will to do what had to be done. Tis not time, they were too green. Especially Jacaerys.

That was what Jacaerys lacked and that was what his other grandson would exploit. Baelon grinned, confusing the elder and soon enough, a kick on the leg caused the heir to the throne to stumble back and his shield abandoned a bit further where he landed Jacaerys groans heavily as his head touches creates a halo of sand around him, exhausted. A huff of air passes through Baelon and he smiles, offering a hand to his elder brother who gazed at him with a pursed lip and took the hand to stand. A sigh passes through Jace’s mouth, disappointed in his loss.

“You did well, brother.” Baelon praises as he picks up the shield, handing it to his brother.

Jace takes it from him with a huff. “I could have done better.”

“You did as well as you could.” The younger replies. “There will be more time to do it.”

“But I could have done much better!” The son of Rhaenyra snarled. “I could have. I just know it!”

Baelon frowned. “But–”

“Your brother is right.” Daemon interjects sternly. steps forward. His hand rested on Dark Sister’s pummel. He turns to Baelon, towering him. “Do not fill your brother’s head with only praise. He should not be clouded by them.”

“Grandfather, he did well to defend.” Baelon frowns as he speaks in the tongue of Old Valyria. “He deserves praise for that.”

“And yet, you deserve more praise for bringing him down with your strength.” Daemon exclaims in the same tongue to his grandson, who looks away. “And here you are, praising the one you defeated.”

“Do not be mean to him, grandfather–”

Daemon scoffed. “And what will you do, little prince, if I do not stop?”

Daemon gazed at Jacaerys, who glared at him intensely with defiance. Those same eyes that reminded him of when his cousin Rhaenys had been younger. The Rhaenys he had once known had a temper in her, eager to have things always go her way. A nature her lady mother had fostered all her life, as she does now even. The defiance in his Baratheon blue was not enough to cower him to his knees. The determination in his young body was eager, the dragon blood was in him indeed. Fierce as burning fire and iron burning in his blood. But he was still a boy, too green as the summers they only know. They had never seen winter, nor had seen the truth beyond the walls of their safety. The rogue prince had gotten much from his wife about his hard nature on the boys, especially now that they were growing into men. The rogue prince is not hard on them without reason. They should know it by now.

The letters from old friends, one from his days as commander of the city watch, were a matter of concern to him. Aemond One-eyed was becoming a prolific swordsman, even with one eye. Even with what Lucerys had taken from him, the boy was too wise for him. Too much so for his own good. Determined even. Daemon was certain that one day, he would be eager to take his revenge on the former for his eye. Viserys may protect him, but his brother will not be king forever. It only buys them time. It did not help that it was that bastard Cole, who only knows violence aiding him. As much as he hated the Hightower queen’s sworn sword, he has seen battle. In the same Dornish marches that his son had once seen once in his youth. That second son would be a matter of concern. And if his friends tell a true tale of his skill as a swordsman, then he would be a threat.

While he relished in the eagerness of his grandsons for such play, he knew he had to be sterner on them. There is a gap that one cannot see and he wishes to fill it. To make his blood as strong as they can be. Daemon is sure that there will come a time when such child’s play will become more than a stir in the courtyard. He is willing to play villain if that makes it so, if that enables them to know how to protect themselves. To find themselves able to be the strength that will hold their house together when he is no longer.

Otherwise, no one else will not do them any favors. They will slaughter whom they have to, there are too many enemies that lurk behind the shadows of the flames. They may be gods among men, but they were humans with flesh and bone. A sword is all that can protect them, and the viciousness within human nature in itself. He must awaken it in them, he must try to ignite something. Mayhaps one day, he will. One day.

He gazes at his grandsons once more and lets out a small sigh. The rogue prince wished to speak once more, but he stopped himself as he noticed the shadow against the flames. He grabs with one hand his Valyrian steel and the other the dagger by his cloak with one swift. The figure steps further forward and he notices the shade of white. He stops, seeing Steffon Darklyn approaching him fervently. The prince consort of Blackhall raised a brow as the knight came and bowed to him, before leaning forward to whisper loud enough to hear in his ear.

The prince graces the whitecloak a glance, as though to ask if what he said had been truth. The knight merely nodded, bowing his head. Perhaps the knight bowed because he saw the fury in Daemon’s eyes, mayhaps it was respect. It did not matter to him. The grandchildren, the children–sees the change in his face which was pure anguish hidden in the hard exterior of his dragon flesh. Jacaerys and Baelon were nearest, now gracing in their features was confusion and worry evident. The footsteps of the Tully twins echoed against the sand further.

The prince turned to ser Steffon, and allowed his hand to grapple with his throat harshly. He could hear both Baela and Daena gasp loudly, Oscar grabbing Joffrey to take him away from the violent sight. Baelon gripped Jace’s hand as he rushed to ser Steffon’s aid, not wishing for him to get in the fray. Kermit Tully was the one who stepped forward, watching Daemon strangle the whitecloak even tighter. Daemon could feel the burn of light lilac fight against Tully blue against the flame from the Tully heir’s gaze. But he did not stop. He will not. Not after what happened.

“What happened?” Kermit asked in High Valyrian, trying to release the tension. His eyes watched Daemon’s grip hold firm, the whitecloak turning purple. “What do we need to do?”

A couple of moments later, Daemon released the whitecloak who coughed for air harshly as he stumbled to his feet. Daemon was too angry to even comprehend the pain of muscle spasm that burned his hand. He was too angry that the knight had failed in his duty, to keep his family safe.

“You were on guard.” He hissed at the whitecloak in the sandy dune. “And you allowed a fool with a knife to threaten and harm my family?”

“I…I apologize, my prince–”

“Call your brother back and have him lead everyone up in the castle, have Blackhall knights upon every door.” He says to Kermit in High Valyrian, who nods and leaves. He turns to Baelon. “Ride Grey Ghost, keep up and ensure no one leaves without permission.”

“What—Grandfather, what is going on?”

“We have traitors in our midst and they will pay.”

He walks off without another word.

It was a mercy that the babe was unharmed. Mellara Targaryen gazed at her sleeping good-daughter with weary eyes as she sat there, gazing at her grandson in his cot resting soundly beside the fire. The fire was always calming to a dragon, the sound of ambers whispering tales as old as time like hymns and lullabies. The egg had been placed by her husband before the birth, which she was thankful for. None would be in the mood to do it after the events that previously happened.

It had been a shock to Mellara, that someone they had trusted with their lives—to touch, to heal, to preserve royal flesh had cut royal flesh, had attempted to steal the life of a dragon that had yet been born. The very maester that had aided in Joffrey’s scraped knee, the one who healed her cold. They trusted him and he had all but abandoned their good will to madness, to support the Hightowers.

Mellara wondered if he was one of them, a Hightower of Oldtown, who feared the birth of a pure blooded Targaryen, of her blood. Of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, of Aegon and his sisterwives, of Sara Stark. He feared one that would threaten Alicent’s children, that was what he had said to her as she held Rhaenyra in her arms earlier, a sharp blade in his hand. It had confused Mellara, that he would have to worry about such a thing. Rhaenyra had no love for her siblings, it was true. But she would not harm them, not when they were all her blood. She knew better than to do such a thing. Kinslaying was not a sin in Old Valyria, dragonriders fought for their rights to be heirs of their families after all. But her good-daughter was not willing to do that.

She would not wish it either. She had lost all care for Alicent, but her children were a different matter entirely. They too were the blood of her good-brother, of her dear cousin Viserys. She would not forsake them, even with the wedge between them. Aemond was a constant in her letters back in the capital, eager for her reply and her words of advice. Helaena too with her wondrous collections of butterflies, which Mellara was fascinated with. Daeron who was eager to ask her about dragon riding, how she rode her Blacknight all across night skies. Alicent’s boy, Aegon, too at times wrote to her to tell her of the wines he purchased as he knew she too was fond of them.

But as she stared at the blood of her son in her fingers, she wondered if she would change her mind. Her grandson was threatened, her good-daughter distraught from fright and childbirth and her son wounded–all for Alicent and her family’s sake. For the queen’s children, that maester had said. To save her children from threats. Mellara pursed her lips, her other finger straddled the dried blood. Her son, her eldest, had taken the blow of the knife as he tried to stop the maester. It was not out of carelessness, it was distraction. Worried for her and his wife, he had turned to them and the man had stabbed him outright. But his son had managed to bring him down, and had called the whitecloaks to take the man to the dungeon cells.

The look of her son as the Pentoshi healer was of the one who had expected such a situation. It made her wonder if her son had seen it in his dreams, had been seeing nightmares that had prevented him sleep and given him endless worry. Haunted by loss and grief as her father had once been. He neither moved nor flinched at the needles that put flesh and bone back together, he had been used to it. Her son was a veteran of many battles, who felt each and every sword slice him, felt every inch of an arrow pierce his skin. Just like his father. It pained her to see such a thing, her eldest to be numbed to pain. To be accustomed to such a life.

Mellara had not raised her son to be like this, to be used to butchery. To be used to slaughter and pain. But it was no use. It was something he meant to be. The moment he was born, he has always had a strong grip. A warrior’s grip. It was his curse, along with his dreams and nightmares. Mellara felt tears prickle her eyes for a brief moment, but quickly wiped them away as the doors opened. Daemon Targaryen marched inside with the eyes of a dragon, eager to burn and to stir with a fearsome roar that made reality the chaos of life.

Mellara Targaryen got to her feet and turned to their son. His eyes followed her own, seeing the blood and the flesh that he had made, be torn and sewn together in the silence of crackling fire. The grip on Dark Sister’s arm had been tighter than it had been, she had noticed. He was angry, tense with worry. Mellara was sure he had come to hurt ser Steffon too. Mellara walked towards him and took her unblemished hands to his own free hand, placing a small kiss upon the palm. His breath was still hot in adrenaline, unable to even look past their son. Their son who looked away from his father, shamed by his inability to avoid injury. He knew he was better than that.

“We are safe, my love.” Mellara cooed to her husband, reassuring him. “Our son has protected us, we are well.”

“He is injured.”

“And is being healed well.” She says, taking her other hand and turning his face to look at her. “The traitor has been imprisoned. Our dear Elmo is investigating now. You have nothing to worry about.”

“I have every reason to worry.” He hissed back at his wife. “If there is one traitor, then there must be others.”

“We are not yet certain of it.”

“I am most certain of it.” Daemon stresses as she purses her lips, releasing his jaw. “I ought to behead that fool, Darklyn. Choking the bastard was not enough. How could he not know of the commotion?”

“He did not know.” Their son finally speaks, eager to break his father’s tension. “I was the one who sent him away.”

His father glares at him. “And risk your safety? Your mother and your wife, your newborn son?”

“I am fairly capable of protecting my family, father.” The prince consort hissed at his father, moving to gaze upon him closer. “I who is a veteran of many wars, I have disarmed the man.”

Daemon laughed at his son’s response. “Oh yes, and this just disarming had happened to land on your belly? Quite efficient you are then, son.”

Mellara frowned, pulling her husband away. “Your son had been too worried, his youngest son had just been born in danger and his mother and wife at a near distance from the maester was something he worried for.”

“I had taught him better than that.” Daemon exclaimed, watching his son almost stand from his position as he growled. “See? He is angry at himself. Because he knows I am correct.”

“And what if you are correct, husband? What does this bring us?”

Daemon shook his head. “Reflection, wife. He knows now. And he would do better. I did not raise a boy to a man to be foolish. Not when he has a family to protect.”

Mellara purses her lips at him, disappointed but he only places a kiss on her lips.

Without another word, Daemon Targaryen walked off to make justice off his own.

She turned to Aegon, returning to his seat and soon slammed the table hard

The young Egg soon cried, with lungs that were made for a grieving warrior.

By the time he had come to the dungeons, damage had already been done. Daemon Targaryen had always found his fellow husband to be the soft one, too much of a trout who seems free from the troubles of the world. Tullys were eager for ambiance, who lived adhering to isolation in the bubble of their house words. Daemon had not Though he could not say completely about the redheaded twins, who run amok with their mother’s dragon blood too eager to bounce in their veins.

The kind, soft spoken heir of Riverrun was a favorite amongst the court, more than Daemon himself, chivalrous and generous. Even in the bed of pleasure the three shared at times, he was willing to submit himself to whatever the two dragons wished. Even to the brood of younglings that grow among these walls,he gives in without a fight. A smile eager on his lips at all times, pleasant and joyous. The children adored the idea of having two grandfathers, especially when he knew he had been too harsh on the children. They run to his counterpart, eager smiles and happy voices. The Tully heir spoiled them rotten, submissive to their every command. Daemon had not envied the man, such a life is tiring to live by.

Yet he could not help but laude his wife for her good decisions. Mellara had a good eye for husbands, she had picked well. Such devotion and love he has for her, one that had blossomed when he was a squire in Blackhall, had played well in her favor. One plays along to the tune of pleasantries and the other to the hymn of blade and fire. Daemon had not doubted that the trout does get mad with anger. He had been angry once before with the queen back in Driftmark, and had been just as angry with his wife nearly losing her life for her carelessness. A mad man can recognize another, he knew it too well. He had thought it a hunch, that such a thirst for revenge. For blood repaid in blood being a thought of imagination.

But as the maester breathed with heaviness, the blood oozed from each and every corner of his face, the rogue prince could only let a smirk come upon his lips at being right. A trout can be vicious too. His already ugly nose turned even uglier with the misshapen cut that echoed above it. The bruises forming over his badly swollen eyes were making a monster out of him. Bruised lips with endless cuts, the cheeks missing flesh from its corners. The forehead looked like it was about to fall off his face, flayed evenly with precise precision. There was no screaming left in him, Daemon thinks. The damage that Elmo put upon the foolish man was already done.

Each breath seemed like the fool’s last. It made Daemon feel jealous. His revenge had yet to be taken, after all. As he dismissed the guards, he opened the iron locks himself and welcomed himself in with greedy abandon. His purple eyes gazed with wonder at the masterpiece the Tully heir created with his expertise. Daemon looked satisfied at the sight, delighted even. It sends a message. That none are able to do something to their family and get away with it. Not once, not twice. Never. For each time has a consequence. Beyond comprehension. Whatever the cost.

“You ought to have waited for me.” Daemon says, as he watches the Tully lord sigh.

“You took too long.” Elmo replies nonchalantly. “Did you admonish Aegon?”

“Someone must.” The rogue prince replies solemnly. “He knew better than to be distracted. It puts others in danger. He did not think.”

“He is a new father once more, Daemon. Our wife and his own were present.”

Daemon raised a brow. “And? He has disarmed a drunken north man twice his size in front of his children. If he can do such a thing, he can deflect an olden maester’s touch.”

The heir to Riverrun pursed his lips. “Are you truly sure that will help him?”

“It does not matter.” Daemon responds, shaking his head. “If it helps him, good. If he festered in anger, then I had done my duty. If he decides to work on his mistake through such anger, then I have done my duty. He is not a fool and he should not be. If he is to lead this family, he has to learn. Hard if he must, angry, if he must. It does not matter.”

“And yet you play the villain for it, as always.” Elmo shook his head. “Mellara and I had told you off about it. You work too hard on it. The children are convinced at times that you dislike them. It is too tiring.”

The rogue scoffs. “There must be one villain to encourage them to live beyond the limit. If it is to be someone, it might as well be myself.”

“Then power is not the greed that runs you, you do it for love?” A fake gasp releases from the redheaded lord. “A shocking discovery!”

“I disappeared for years to leave power behind, trout.” He replies, watching the heir of Riverrun walk around him to the basin behind him. “If I wanted power, I would merely point in a direction and Caraxes would end the world.”

“Best not let Otto Hightower hear your truth, Daemon. He’d laugh.”

“I am trying my hardest to avoid imagining such laughter existing.” Daemon whispers mischievously. “It sounds like a crime to this world.”

“Too late, you have burnt it in my head.” He groans softly. “A forbidden image!”

Daemon scoffed. “Cursed beyond comparison, I fear.”

It had not been an expected outcome, not even for Daemon. But these many years had dragged them closer especially with a wife that enjoys the reap of what peace sows. If he had been younger, more ambitious, more eager for control and power. Daemon Targaryen would have slain this bastard, counting each body part as he did with a smile on his face. They haven't called him the rogue prince for nothing, after all. His youth had been spent in adventures of debauchery and violence, of banditry and jealousy. Yearning for more and more. With every yearning, however, he realized that he lost more than he had gained.

There was always a price to pay. A gift from the gods always requires something in return, they always do. If he had continued, he would have lost more. That he was completely certain. He had yearned too much, had rought too much wanting in his own palm. Daemon had lost too much already, he thinks. There was no need for more. Not when paradise is here in the isle where everything had begun. He was not willing to let it go. To let it all go to waste, after rescinding himself to the will of his heart, of his soul. Closing his eyes, he remembered the long bitter years that had passed him by. Each had been too clear, like the way the blue sky shines for him as he rides the winds on sunshine.

He had asked for a younger sibling, his mother fell to childbed, He had thought his father as king would be a wonder, his father died in his pains and grief. He had desired the throne in his youth, his eldest daughter was taken without the world’s breath. He had selfishly left his family to the vipers who wish to hurt them, his third wife yielded on childbed and his son to the womb. He pauses for a moment, his lips felt dry at the thoughts in his head. Daemon had no yearning for this bitterness any longer. For the first time in his life, he felt complete. Happy even. Whatever the idea of happiness to the common man, Daemon had truly felt it. In this life he had created with the love of his life. And he could not ask for more. He would not ask for more.

But now he will protect what is left behind.

He will do whatever it takes to keep what he has.

Spill as much as he needs to, hurt whoever he has to.

Daemon Targaryen will not let this go without a fight.

Elmo laughed bitterly, washing the blood off. “The things we do for love. A sickening profession.”

Daemon crosses his arms, nodding without hesitation. “I’m willing to do anything. Whatever the cost. As long as we protect our own.”

“That may be our doom, rogue.”

The purple eyed man laughed. “So be it, trout. Might as well live for something.”

“Hm, I suppose so.”

“We will need a new maester.” Daemon exclaims, pointing to the bleeding figure. “None will ask of this fool, I am certain.”

Elmo raised a brow, drying his hands. “Do you have anyone in mind?”

“I have not thought of it yet.” Daemon admits to the younger husband. “In truth I would prefer no maester upon this island. It was the Pentoshi midwives who had helped Rhaenyra to safety.”

“No, we cannot make ourselves too obvious.” He shook his head at the silver prince. “If we do not entertain writing to the Citadel, they might find it odd.”

Daemon pursed his lips tightly. “I suppose we can ask Viserys. It would not be the first time we deviate from tradition. Do you have anyone in mind?”

“Mellara spoke of a maester that Rhaenyra had before, I imagine he was taken to somewhere else.”

The rogue prince raised his eyes. “He did not join the move to Dragonstone.”

“I do not recall the circumstances.” The lord sighed as he admitted. “But I have no doubt it is because of his unwavering loyalty to our good-daughter’s faction.”

“I shall inquire for his whereabouts.” Daemon nodded at the younger man. “For now, we shall keep having the Pentoshi healers.”

Elmo nodded in return. “Very well. Then we are done here.”

“Not yet.” Daemon exclaims, long fingers clasped around the bleeding traitor. “I must give him a grave first.”

“Oh? Pray tell, what do you intend for his grave?”

A smile pounced onto his lips.

“You’ll find out.”

When the morning shone, the maester was nowhere to be seen.

Daemon did not look for it as the others have done that daybreak.

Elmo could care even less, opting to rest and complete his sleep.

Caraxes sang across the volcanic planes, satisfied with his meals.

The burnt flesh and half broken bones seek the shining sun.

Daemon cradled his newborn grandson, wisps of silver in his halo.

“So you are the boy they call after his father.” He whispers in his native tongue. “Aegon the younger, you are.”

‘Whatever the cost.’

29 notes · View notes

janiedean · 3 years

Note

Book!Theon is Azor!Ahai, not Jon. It makes no sense narratively for Jon to be AA, and it’s the most stereotypical thing ever, and he’s already stereotypical, he’s the red flag for the audience. Theon’s chapters are full of hints, he has the perfect salt/smoke/stars/dragons thing at the end of ACOK, when he “dies”. His story is about destroying death, his entire narrative, with things that come from mythology and ancient literature, points to that. The show is trash, but don’t you think that it’s a little weird that Theon is there at the end and then Arya comes out of nowhere and becomes AA? And what ending does she get? Exploring the unknown SEA with SHIPS? Being free and on her own? Maybe it doesn’t make sense for her because it’s not for her. D&D already took everything else from Theon, they took this too. And even if he’s not AA, he’s still clearly connected to magic and all of that, he didn’t go though so much for nothing, he didn’t take his name back for the first time in his life, his name that literally means “godly”, for nothing. He has something big to do, and it’s about himself, not Robb and the Starks. And he’s also so clearly connected to the politics of the north and of the iron islands, a villain was literally created for him, so I don’t understand how can you say he’s not really important and all he’s got left to do is retire in a house and be sad. Of course he has a lot of trauma and that’s important, but I don’t like how people reduce him to that and act like just because those things happened, he can’t do anything else

anon with no ill will and I swear I don't want to sound pedantic or anything but I, uh, never came to the conclusion you say I came from - that said let's go in order even if I think I already went through all the reasons why it makes literally no sense if it's anyone but jon, but let's start with one thing:

It makes no sense narratively for Jon to be AA, and it’s the most stereotypical thing ever, and he’s already stereotypical, he’s the red flag for the audience.

it's stereotypical.... to us maybe, but it is not to westeros. like, you're looking at it through audience-lens because it has been years and the show confirmed r+l=j and we all figured that shit out, but to westeros, the idea that the prince that was promised is a bastard guy serving on the wall aka a state-sponsored prison where people go to not die and is filled to non-desirables to society is... the least likely option in existence? no really, but again:

first thing that should quiet all doubts, when melisandre asks r'hollor to see azor ahai bc she wants to see stannis, r'hollor shows her jon snow and instead of going like 'uh wait why am I seeing another dude' she's like 'I want to see stannis but r'hollor shows me jon snow there must be some disturbance on the line', like she doesn't even consider for a second that it might be jon;

no one else has brought WITHIN THE NARRATIVE jon up as a likely candidate - they said stannis, they said dany, they said whoever but no one ever said hey jon snow might be AA, because again no one even suspects that it might be jon;

other matter that you're overlooking here: if theon is azor ahai.... it means that the rebellion basically was for nothing? because like the entire shtick with rhaegar targaryen's bad life choices™ is that he was apparently a swell dude, then he read a book where somehow it was exactly explained how the apocalypse was gonna happen, he deduced that he was the guy who had to father AA/the prince that was promised and in order - first he doesn't care about fighting but suddenly after that he starts getting learned; - he immediately worries over having THREE children from which we can deduce from the narrative that as far as he knows in order to fight when the wights come he has to have three kids for three dragons and one of them is azor ahai; - the moment his wife can't have more than two even if he's sure that he already had the right one (aegon) he still runs off with lyanna to make sure he has the third because it's that important that HE rhaegar targaryen fathers the three heads of the dragon... to the point of starting a civil war and most likely giving arthur orders to make sure that the kid lives at all costs even if he thinks lyanna's kid is NOT AA; - let's remember that the entire schtick is also that 'he is the ptwp and his is the song of ice and fire' which means that this kid of rhaegar's is the person these books are titled after.

now, let's look again at tyrion's infamous quote which I always bring up in these cases but let's refresh our memory here Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head now: given this, we can absolutely assume that no single prophecy in this book goes the way the person at the end of it interprets it... which means that rhaegar was wrong on a lot of accounts, but guess what, the thing is that one out of three of his kids is dead (if we count aegon as trueborn, if he's not then two on three but I think he's trueborn) and the one who hatched the eggs/has the dragon is DANY so he already was wrong on head of the dragon #1, and he can absolutely be wrong on aegon being tptwp which would mean mistake #2 and we should know about the prophecy, but one of his children being AA and his being the song of ice and fire looks a bit too much of a stretch to be incorrect and have AA being someone else's son also would be.... but if AA is jon ie the one he had for last that he was sure was not AA and who doesn't even have the targ name (nor the stark one) and no one suspects having that kinda ancestry then yes it fits exactly all the parameters and it still allows for rhaegar to have partially misinterpreted the entire thing even in large chunks but not enough to make it look like he was completely making shit up, which... I mean the long night is coming I don't doubt he had very good reasons to want to stop it; also, anon not to beat the dead horse, but: - jon's death fits all the prophecy parameters already there's the bleeding star, the smoking wound and the salt of the tears which btw is not obvious nor something you'd immediately do 2+2 about... which fits perfectly with the above - jon died and came back to life in the godforsaken show like he's literally the only idiot who resurrected in it and we're supposed to handwave it the way dnd did? - jon has a valyrian steel sword that he can handle while theon atm really doesn't - we could argue that ygritte could be a possible nissa-nissa contender though I mean maybe it could also be that he and val get hot and bothered and it turns out it's her or someone else and that hasn't happened yet but surely there's more evidence for that with jon than with theon - theon has like... povs in two books for a total amount of less than fifteen chapters, jon has at least ten chapters per book or so on, which just mathematically makes jon a main fiver character while theon is not and like I understand deconstruction and all but you don't make your ace in the hole mystical prince hero character someone who has had fifteen chapters total at most unless I remember wrong the amount he had in acok in comparison to someone who was a main throughout the entire thing - like guys I say it as someone whose third-fave char is theon, theon is not a main fiver™ character and that's okay that's not the point, and with that I don't mean he's not important, I mean that he's not one of the five main ones that have most of the plot stuff on their shoulders and he's not THE main character, because if theon is AA then these books are named a song of theon greyjoy and considering that the main five are jon tyrion arya dany and bran I think it's highly not probable that at the end of it theon is the one character to rule them all

and that was for how jon fit the criteria, but theon doesn't fit them because again he doesn't have a number of chapters/povs that justifies such a plot twist, balon is certainly not rhaegar and I don't see how rhaegar reads a prophecy wrt balon and thinks it's about him, the heads of the dragon should be three and theon had three siblings two of which are dead and asha has no tie to the dragon storyline, this means that theon should be able to ride/command a dragon and we know that in theory just targs can and there's already three of them around - dany jon and aegon - and if anyone who's not a targ has a narrative reason to ride a dragon is tyrion not theon... and tyrion is a main fiver too, also there's the nissa-nissa/burning sword angle and as it is theon could absolutely use a bow again but a longsword with his hands maimed like that and no muscle mass would be a bit implausible, in order for the reborn prophecy to actually make sense it means his last adwd chapter should have smoke, salt and the bleeding star which it doesn't but jon's has so there's that

now, re what you said wrt theon:

Theon’s chapters are full of hints

not really? he doesn't have a tie to the magical storyline beyond his connection to bran. they have hints for a lot of things but that he's AA? idt so

he has the perfect salt/smoke/stars/dragons thing at the end of ACOK, when he “dies”

okay but then I could use the same argument for saying that AA could be davos when he survives blackwater because he says he woke up in wreckage of smoke in salty water, and then stannis has equally valid arguments bc he has the shiny sword and he's in dragonstone etc and we all know it's not stannis, also an AA death at the ending of acok when the topic has barely been introduced in dany's vision is entirely too early for me to drop that bomb

his story is about destroying death, his entire narrative, with things that come from mythology and ancient literature, points to that.

his story is about overcoming trauma and abuse and not dying in the process (which is why I think the show was trash) and okay but everyone in these books has something that comes from a mythology or ancient literature, like jaime brienne and c. all have arthuriana roots same as bran, doesn't make any of them a viable AA candidate

The show is trash, but don’t you think that it’s a little weird that Theon is there at the end and then Arya comes out of nowhere and becomes AA?And what ending does she get? Exploring the unknown SEA with SHIPS? Being free and on her own? Maybe it doesn’t make sense for her because it’s not for her.

considering that maisie williams was shocked that arya was AA and she also thought it made no sense and that dnd never thought theon had his own storyline while I can agree on the fact that it fits more for him as an ending than for arya, I don't think that means it makes him AA, same as I think that they gave sansa his storyline and possibly his confrontation with ramsay and I'm not 100% convinced on the last part anyway but that just means they didn't realize theon doesn't exist for the starks' storyline, also like.. in the show everyone but c. was in WF and theon was already dead when arya did her thing and honestly idt the battle of the long night will ever go like that anyway so idt even partially show truthing is bringing us anywhere

and even if he’s not AA, he’s still clearly connected to magic and all of that, he didn’t go though so much for nothing, he didn’t take his name back for the first time in his life, his name that literally means “godly”, for nothing

I never said it was for nothing which I'll elaborate in a second and ofc he's connected to the magic storyline... because he's connected with bran's storyline and his last round of atonement has to happen through bran in the sense that since he was the one basically forcing bran out of wf now he most likely has to facilitate bringing him back or smth (surely not dying for him), but like whatever magical stuff he has going on it has to do with bran dot, not with AA which I still think he doesn't have a stricter text connection to than davos has for that matter and idt davos is AA as I think I made clear

He has something big to do, and it’s about himself, not Robb and the Starks.

never said he didn't, and I also said that I wasn't going to speculate in detail about what theon has to do because I don't think there are enough text elements to say it now but there will be when wow comes out for sure, but like again I don't want to make predictions when I don't have the elements and wrt theon's themes/possible canon ending etc I always said that he most likely isn't going to inherit the islands but that he'll do something huge before the books are done which is gonna be tied to the northern storyline and possibly to bran because he has to go specular to acok - acok is his downfall, adwd is 'I'll find myself again', wow+ados have to be what would theon do if he decides his own thing while being his own person, or recycling my old THEON HAS HEGELIAN THEMES IN HIS STORYLINE acok = thesis, adwd = antithesis, wow+ados = synthesis so obviously he has something huge in the plans.... I just don't think it means he's AA

And he’s also so clearly connected to the politics of the north and of the iron islands, a villain was literally created for him, so I don’t understand how can you say he’s not really important and all he’s got left to do is retire in a house and be sad

aaand here we get to the point which is that... I never said that? I honestly never said that? I said he has to overcome his trauma and live and thrive and be happy after that. if he retires in a house at the end of ados after he does whatever he has to do in the main plot it's going to be because it's what he wants to do and most likely he and jeyne are going to be adorbs while doing it together or smth or if he goes back to the islands and advises asha then he's going to be happy doing that too, but like... the entire point of theon's sl is that he overcomes that horrendous abuse while not being a perfect good victim™ throughout and still be happy after and gain his redemption? that's what I always said. I never said that now he can just retire and be sad. trauma recovery is becoming happy after getting over your trauma. not being sad. and like.... sometimes not getting amazing mythological things but just being happy by yourself is actually a goal? again, grrm is a lapsed catholic. if I know that breed and I do, he doesn't think redemption and happiness are in shortage at the supermarket. and in order for theon to have narrative importance/weight/relevance he doesn't have to do magical mythological IMPORTANT™ things (even if I think he does have something cooked up as I said above), but like the entire point of his sl is the trauma recovery. he's there for that. that's literally his point in the plot and the fact that grrm created a villain for him means that he thinks it's an important thing to explore.

also I personally think that theon's arc is the best written thing in those books so like I don't want to undermine its importance, I just don't think that in order to be important™ then theon has to be dragged kicking and screaming into main fiver territory because there isn't the need.

. Of course he has a lot of trauma and that’s important, but I don’t like how people reduce him to that and act like just because those things happened, he can’t do anything else

I don't like that either esp. when coming from dnd who didn't even let him have it fully, but: and when did I ever do it? I never said that theon is only his trauma. my standing opinion wrt theon is that he's grrm's best written/constructed character (along with jaime) and his most innovative one (jaime following but theon wins it) because theon deconstructs the backstabber trope which I already went on about but:

again usually ppl who backstab the good protagonist™ get caught and punished and you never hear their pov

theon has all the povs

he's the main char in that storyline not robb

he has entirely understandable reasons that ppl decided aren't sympathetic just bc they don't want to admit that in his position they'd have done the same thing

the audience hates him for having contributed to robb's downfall but then he gets a comeuppance that's completely not what anyone would deserve for that and he gets the spotlight/the sympathy again

he gets narrative redemption saving jeyne so you can see he's not an asshole at all

has to get through horrific abuse for his entire life not just with ramsay, he's not a good victim™ but he's still written in a way that makes you want to root for him and at the end he actually comes through so you want him to keep on succeeding

which is smth that with the backstabber trope never happens

now the thing is that theon's there bc a) identity issues b) trauma recovery storylines that then get tied to bran's main one but like idg why just having the recovery storyline would make him lesser - saying he's not a main fiver doesn't mean he's not important, it means he's not a MAIN™ character... which in asoiaf doesn't matter bc even ppl without povs are important to the narration and are there to drive a point (see sandor and stannis), and I don't see why saying that the most important part of his sl/the one grrm wants to stick with the readers is the survivor part of it rather than whichever heavy magic related plot thing he has to play in the future means undermining his importance. and while I think he has that role, idt it's the most important one he has bc being a survivor is what sells his storyline/the entire arc of his character.

then if come wow I'm wrong I'll be like okay I fucked up, but: honestly, imvho there is no way that azor ahai is not jon snow, the fact that collectively as a fandom we think it's obvious doesn't mean people in westeros do, each single point of evidence is at jon and if occam's razor is a thing then it's jon and that's okay because as deconstructed chosen one as he is, jon is still the protagonist of these books and regarding the prophecy above, it makes a lot more sense that this series is titled a song of jon snow and not a song of theon greyjoy and I say this as someone who vastly prefers theon as a character. also, if smth is well-written, readers should see it coming, so the fact that jon is AA isn't predictable if it's true, it's grrm.... knowing how to write a book and plant his hints because if everyone guessed right then if he makes it suddenly someone else bc jon is too predictable then it's dnd making it arya bc SURPRISE WE NEEDED YOU TO GO LIKE WTF HAS JUST HAPPENED INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING THE NARRATION TO ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION, not 'it's too predictable' or the audience red herring the way jaime being the valonqar is an audience red herring. jon being AA should be absolutely obvious for the reader who paid attention and a total surprise for the other characters in the narration, the audience red herring is more dany than anyone else imvho and I'm dying on that hill for now, thanks for coming to my ted talk but like I don't see how it's anyone but jon personally X°D

#jon snow #theon greyjoy #janie writes meta #idk anon i've never said theon wasn't important #i said he wasn't a main char #and like.... my fave char is robb #who doesn't even have a pov #is EXTREMELY important to the narration bc the rw is the crux of 50% of the plot #and i wouldn't call robb a main either #and in asoiaf there are five mains™#and everyone else is on a level of importance #but like those five mains are MAINS more than the others #and jon is the main-est of them so X°DDD #like the fact that the protagonist of a series is the one that has to save the world isn't smth that i think grrm wants to deconstruct #he wants to deconstruct HOW he gets there #but that's mvho #peace

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elegantwoes · 4 years

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I read that Sansa *should* not end up with Jon because she lost Lady and her Stark identity, and ending up with Jon (the "most" Stark) will "reclaim" her Starkness. So Aegon makes more sense since Sansa will "lose" her Stark identity with him (wait ... hasn't she lost it already?!) And Sansa at the end will (*should*) have "very little to do with other Starks", because she is no longer one. Wth. What does Sansa ending up with anyone has to do with her losing/gaining "Starkness"? I am lost.

By no means can I know what is on other people’s minds, but if I would take I guess, I assume that the reason why that person argued that is because a great deal of Jonsa metas go in-depth about how a romance and marriage with Jon enriches Sansa's arc of reclaiming her autonomy and identity as a Stark. How both her political and romantic plot-lines are deeply intertwined with one and another and how that makes Jon the only viable love interest for Sansa.

Those who don’t like Sansa obviously wouldn’t like that. Because if that is true, then where would that leave their favorite character? In their minds, only their faves deserve to be the ruler of the North and/or a love interest like Jon. That’s why they want Sansa to have “very little to do with other Starks”. Deep down they know there is a chance Sansa ends up as (on of the) ruler(s) in the North and marries Jon. And what is the best way to keep Sansa away? By shipping her with characters who would “keep” her in the South.

The obvious Sansa “couples” are S@nsan and S@nrion, and sometimes, as you mentioned, with Aegon. I understand why S@nsan and S@nrion shippers have some “hope” because the story between them and Sansa isn’t over, it’s very likely they will meet her again, but Aegon? The probability that they will meet is slim to none. Their stories are radically different from one another. The story of Aegon is very much tied to the Martells and the Crownlands whereas Sansa’s story is about going North and, like I said earlier, reclaiming her autonomy and identity as a Stark. I can see why some people might consider this because of the Ashford Theory and the strong Targaryen imagery in Sansa’s chapters.

However, those hints could equally hint to a romance and marriage with Jon. After all, R+L=J has been practically confirmed. And then some want Sansa with Aegon because that would mean she would die along with him. Often times it is the ASOIAF dudebros on Westeros(.)org and Reddit who hate Sansa that theorize this. Personally, I loathe the idea of Aegonsa. I don’t want to go in too deep into why I dislike this ship because if I did this then post would be humongous. This post is already so long lol. So if you are interested in why I dislike Aegonsa please send me another ask, anon, and then I will go in-depth.

And then we have the age old sexists, who believe that once a Westerosi noble woman marries she is cast aside by her family and automatically loses her identity. That is not how it works in Westeros. It just doesn’t. When both Catelyn and Cersei married into the Stark and Royal family they didn’t lose identities. Westeros very much sees them as a Lannister and a Tully. And in their cases there were basically “marrying up”. They still didn’t lose their Tulliness and Lannisterness (are these even words lol). Both Catelyn and Cersei take pride in their families. Furthermore if Sansa did, hypothetically, marry into a Southern noble family like these people want, that still doesn’t mean Jon or Bran (whoever rules the North in this scenario) will ignore her. They would support her of course, because a) they love her and b) it’s. a. marriage. alliance. both parties are supposed to benefit from the engagement. That makes the chance for either of them to abandon Sansa virtually impossible. Just like always Sansa antis prove just how little they understand these character and the feudalistic society they live in.

#Anonymous #Sansa Stark #Jonsa #Anti Sansan #Anti Sanrion #Anti Aegonsa #sorry for the very long post anon lol

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kilannad · 4 years

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I want a Game of Thrones Arcana Chronicles AU

Just imagine it. Like, the "game” of the Arcana Chronicles, powers, apocalypse and all, but with characters from and set in the GoT or ASOIAF world. Some characters admittedly fit the cards better than others, and some of the game rules would have to be tweaked because we just don’t have enough characters to all fit the 16-20 age or be from completely different families but some of these people are sooo well suited. And all of them trying to kill each other as part of the Tarot Game while playing the Game of Thrones would be s o l a y e r e d.

My thoughts on each card/character combo below the cut.

The Fool- Hodor actually came to mind first for this but I think Jojen would be the best fit. Future sight, little wacky, and convinced he has to see his visions through.

The Magician- Thoros might fit here, but I’m in favor of Bran. Dude’s always had the most magic of any of the Starks and it would make sense if Bran the Builder was a magician from a past game, powers passed down.

High Priestess- Yara is my gut instinct for this one but the more I think about it I think it should be Sansa, the bloodline passed through the Tullys. They rule the Riverlands and Sansa slowly growing into the same confidence we see Circe with would fit very well with her character arc.

Empress- Margery. Just. 10/10 Margery. Sansa would almost fit here as well, but considering Margery’s House’s sigil is the rose, I think she’s the obvious choice.

Emperor- definitely a Targaryen, but which? Jon doesn’t really fit, and Aegon VI could be really interesting (Aegon I was def the Emperor in a past game) but I think Viserys would work best here. He has the quick temper and seems like the type to enjoy fire everywhere.

Hierophant- okay, listen to me. I was a little iffy on this one. My first thought was one of the wildling clans, the cannibals because that’s the first thing I think of when I think of the Hierophant in AC. But then I actually thought about his powers. Builds army via Mind control. The eyes of his followers change colours. Obviously the only choice for the Hierophant is the Night King himself.

Lovers- do I even have to say it? Jaime and Cersei. Next.

Chariot- this is one of those that doesn’t really have a perfect GoT equivalent, but after playing around with some of the other cards, I think Euron Greyjoy. Imagine you’re fighting a f*cking pirate and then he turns into a ghost? Ghost pirate.

Justice (called the Fury on the wiki?)- I had to think about this one too, but then I realized; her wings are fireproof. Forget Daenerys Stormborn; this is Daenerys Dragonborn.

Hermit- who else but our friendly neighborhood Frankenstein Qyburn himself? He’s also one of the only alchemists but I just think he fits this mold really well.

Wheel of Fortune- okay, this one is a little weird but consider; Petyr Baelish. He somehow always manages to get things to work out for him (except at the end of s7 but we talk about that only barely more than we talk about s8) and combining his intelligence and manipulations with pure luck? Terrifying.

Strength- I considered both Arya or Sansa for this (any of the Starks or other Wargs would work really) but I just really like the idea of Mance Rayder being the Master of Fauna. Whatshiswargface with the shadowcat could also be interesting, but my choice is Mance here.

Hanged Man- a little out there, a little not but; Renly. Melisandre could also work but Renly, with his charm and wit seems like the type who could have powers of emotional manipulation and a sphere of influence.

Death- So many potentials here. Arya. Jaquen. Jorah (greyscale remember?). But I think my pick here, for the parallels and character arc, is Jon. Dude who has only ever wanted the living to win. The man who would do absolutely anything to protect people. The Endless Knight himself. Makes his vow of chasity take a different light huh?

Temperance- another difficult one, but I think this seems like an Arryn type card. There words are High as Honor and I think them making others feel guilty for the sins they carry is suitable. Considering Jon’s death (and he would be too old anyway) I suppose Robert Arryn takes the cake for this one.

Devil- who else but Ser Gregory Clegane, the Mountain that Rides? The very monster who rapes mothers while covered in the blood of their children.

Tower- this seems like the sort of power that would belong to the Dundarrions, the self titled Storm Kings. But that line is dead. EXCEPT. Except. Orys Baratheon married a Dundarrion princess, which means are cute little Gendry seems like the next Lord of Lightning, as gods know Robert and Stannis are unsuited.

Star- this is where Yara Greyjoy comes in. As sailors, I imagine the Ironborn have deep respect for both the moon controlling the tides and the stars that help them navigate. While Theon could work, I think Yara, ironborn through and through is the perfect match for this.

Moon- Arya. Her being the Huntress just fits so well. Maybe it came from her Flint grandmother??

Sun- Oberyn. I mean, it has to be a Martell, no question. But despite our options, I think Oberyn would fit really well. Also, the thought of him considering both he and two Lannisters being part of this being a great sign that he is meant to kill them is just too delicious to ignore.

Judgment- Ned might fit this well, but otherwise there isn’t really a great character fit that I can think of, though imo it should be someone from the Vale. Again, the wings/honor thing. Soooo, Harold Hardyng?

World- Melisandre. The thought of the Red Priestess with the power to turn back time is terrifying, but also oddly fitting? Idk, something about this just seems right.

So, those are my 22 fancasts for the nonexistent Got AC fusion. I would love it if someone would write this.

Thoughts?

#game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #arcana chronicles #the entire idea of this wont leave my head #crossover/fusion #fanfic idea

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aboveallarescuer · 4 years

Text

How Dany assesses the counsel she receives and makes her own choices - Battle of Yunkai

This will be a series of posts meant to show that Dany is open to receiving advice and criticism, but that she doesn’t act solely based on what other people tell her to do. On the opposite, GRRM makes great effort to write a Dany who most often merges different viewpoints and/or finds her own solutions to the problems she’s facing. I won’t include every single decision she ever made (e.g. her decisions at court are often made without counsel and her execution of the ritual to hatch the dragon eggs was already exhaustively and deftly analyzed by other people), but there will be plenty of instances in this series that will prove my point nonetheless.

Since Dany doesn't receive a lot of advice in this chapter and I want to highlight her agency and skills here, I’m putting the verdict above so that people who don’t want to read the entire meta can at least find its synthesized points right away.

Chapter (s):

ASOS Daenerys IV

The advice Dany receives:

Both Jorah and Barristan warn Dany that she won't convince neither the Stormcrows nor the Second Sons to switch allegiances.

Verdict:

In this chapter, Dany:

Applies Barristan's lessons when she willingly chooses to assess the enemy forces and makes a reasonable guess of how many men the Yunkish forces have.

Has in mind that the sellswords, who are fighting on horseback, are more likely to cause damage and kill too many of her freedmen. (This will inform her plan later)

Embraces her limitations to mock those who will underestimate her for them. (And the author will give plenty of reasons to challenge the simplistic notion that Dany is just a young girl who does not know the ways of war.)

Applies historical knowledge to support her opinion that her forces will overwhelm her enemies'.

Maintains her self-composure and offers excellent comebacks when the captains and the envoy try to slut-shame and/or sexually harass her.

Is doing what she's doing for no other reason than to free the slaves in Yunkai:

She didn't have to worry about the freedmen's safety when they take part in the battle for her, but she does because it would otherwise render her fight for them meaningless.

She could have kept the chest for herself, but she didn't.

She could have taken other chests from the city like she suggests she might do, but she promises instead that "Yunkai will not be burned or plundered" (and that will bite her in the ass later in ADWD).

The only thing she requires is that the former slaves are "allowed to choose freely from among their masters' possessions" and that they are given "food, clothing, coin and goods". Doing this doesn't benefit her in any way, it only helps the slaves.

Outlines a tactical plan that is motivated by her desire to prevent a high number of freedmen casualties and that implies knowledge of:

The Yunkish forces' tactical formation.

The basic topography of the area.

Her enemies' weaknesses and how to exploit them ("I made no promises about tonight", "We will take them under cover of this darkness", "they will see hundreds of campfires burning").

Stays in the room while her captains decide how to better execute her plan. We don't know how much she contributed to the conversation, but it nevertheless shows her willingness to learn more.

When Daario shows up and declares that he and his men will fight for her, she:

Considers if he might be a spy, worries if there are others and is initially suspicious if he's just trying to save his own skin.

Only changes her mind when she sees that he killed the other commanders and that the dragons are fond of him.

Knows that she can't be too distrustful in general, despite the prophecies.

Realizes that the Stormcrows switching allegiances will guarantee that the Yunkish are overwhelmed.

Is more morally flexible concerning the sellswords than one might expect from a traditional hero(ine) fighting against slavery.

Beginning of the chapter

ASOS Daenerys IV is set in motion here:

Her Dothraki scouts had told her how it was, but Dany wanted to see for herself. Ser Jorah Mormont rode with her through a birchwood forest and up a slanting sandstone ridge. “Near enough,” he warned her at the crest.

Dany reined in her mare and looked across the fields, to where the Yunkish host lay athwart her path. Whitebeard had been teaching her how best to count the numbers of a foe. “Five thousand,” she said after a moment.

Even though her Dothraki scouts had already done so, Dany wants to apply Barristan's teachings and assess the enemy forces by herself. She estimates five thousand, which Jorah considers to be a fair guess. I would also note that, while it's not explicitly acknowledged that Dany would know how to describe the terrain the way the narrative does (in the parts in bold above), she is still sufficiently aware of it to concoct a successful outline of where each of her forces should strike the Yunkish later, as we'll see below.

Jorah notes where each sellsword company is positioned and Dany realizes that the Yunkai'i are located in the center. She asks if they lead slave soldiers and the knight confirms that they do, but they aren't equal of Unsullied. Jorah thinks they can "easily" defeat their army, but Yunkai has been forewarned, so any fight might result in more casualties than Dany is willing to accept.

Dany considered. The slaver host seemed small compared to her own numbers, but the sellswords were ahorse. She’d ridden too long with Dothraki not to have a healthy respect for what mounted warriors could do to foot. The Unsullied could withstand their charge, but my freedmen will be slaughtered.

First, here we see Dany using the knowledge she acquired from living with the Dothraki to make a more precise assessment of how her forces might fare against her enemies.

Second, I've seen Dany be criticized before for "breaking" her word with the slavers ... You know, these people who think selling other people is acceptable. This little fact already makes this criticism a moot point at best and slavery apologia at worst, but even then ...

Let's not forget that thinking Dany was "breaking" her word with the slavers means accepting that slavery is valid and that they have the right to sell other human beings.

Let's not forget that Dany's fear that too many of her freedmen will die is what leads her to decide to attack Yunkai and the sellswords when they don't expect it, as the passage above shows.

Let's not forget how awfully we see the Yunkai'i treating their slaves in Tyrion's chapters.

Let's remember all of this.

So, with these considerations in mind, Dany decides:

“The slavers like to talk,” she said. “Send word that I will hear them this evening in my tent. And invite the captains of the sellsword companies to call on me as well. But not together. The Stormcrows at midday, the Second Sons two hours later.”

Jorah thinks they might refuse the invitation, but Dany is quite certain that they won't:

“They’ll come. They will be curious to see the dragons and hear what I might have to say, and the clever ones will see it for a chance to gauge my strength.” She wheeled her silver mare about. “I’ll await them in my pavilion.”

I have no doubt that the previous reactions of the Qartheen and the Astapori to her dragons are informing her attitude here.

Negotiation talks

On my rereads, I've noticed that the negotiation talks in ASOS Daenerys IV are actually quite formulaic: a) the commander/envoy underestimate and/or insult Dany, b) Dany shows self-assurance and/or makes a threat and c) Dany makes a proposal only to be rebuked. So, instead of analyzing dialogue by dialogue chronologically, I think it's more interesting to display these patterns and focus on Dany's voice to highlight her rhetorical skills.

With both the Stormcrows and the Second Sons, Dany points out their blatant military disadvantages while embracing her youth and ignorance (because otherwise they will use these factors to hold her in low regard) and pretending to underestimate herself (because to do so right away means to undermine their propensity to do that):

“Five hundred of your Stormcrows against ten thousand of my Unsullied,” said Dany. “I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war, yet these odds seem poor to me.”

“It is true that I am only a young girl, and do not know the ways of war. Explain to me how you propose to defeat ten thousand Unsullied with your five hundred. Innocent as I am, these odds seem poor to me.”

The captain of the Stormcrows, Prendahl na Ghezn, is adamant that they don't stand alone, for they have the support of both the Second Sons and "the stalwart men of Yunkai". Dany questions if the Second Sons will stay by their side with such poor odds, but Prendahl doesn't flinch. Misogyny undoubtedly plays a part in his reaction, but there's also the fact that, as Jorah later told her, "[l]ikely he had kin in Astapor".

The captain of the Second Sons, Mero, doesn't even bother offering counterarguments. In his mind, since the Second Sons won battles with worse odds and have him as a leader, of course it will be easy to win against a "little girl".

With both Prendahl and Mero, Dany applies her historical knowledge to support her case:

“Woman?” She chuckled. “Is that meant to insult me? I would return the slap, if I took you for a man.” Dany met his stare. “I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, khaleesi to Drogo’s riders, and queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.”

“The Second Sons have faced worse odds and run. At Qohor, when the Three Thousand made their stand. Or do you deny it?”

The first passage, in particular, is often quoted by fans, and rightfully so. All of the three men with whom Dany negotiates try to underestimate her on behalf of her gender and/or by sexualizing/slut-shaming her. It speaks volumes that Dany is able to maintain her self-composure and offer such an excellent comeback. She knows what happened to the last man who dismissed her as "an ignorant whore", after all.

In fact, that's not the only rebut that Dany makes for being reduced to her sexuality. Mero's misogyny is particularly insiduous for pretending to be flatterous while he's actually both underestimating her authority and sexually harassing her. That's why her responses to him are more threatening than to the others:

“If you bring the Second Sons over to my side, I might not have you gelded.”

“No need. After my eunuchs cut it off, I can examine it at my leisure.”

“So it is from you they get their courage?” Dany turned to Ser Jorah. “When the battle is joined, kill this one first.”

The last example is particularly noteworthy. In Game of Thrones, the writers have show!Dany tell her advisor to kill Mero first after he is gone. In the books, however, Mero tries to paint himself as the one that gives his soldiers determination to fight only to be undermined by Dany, who simply asks Jorah to kill him first. As we can see, Dany acts like a boss here and undercuts her enemies' misogyny multiple times.

Then we get to the proposals she makes to each man she interacts with.

This is her proposal for the commander of the Stormcrows:

“Once battle is joined, do not think to ask for quarter. Join me now, however, and you shall keep the gold the Yunkaii paid you and claim a share of the plunder besides, with greater rewards later when I come into my kingdom. Fight for the Wise Masters, and your wages will be death. Do you imagine that Yunkai will open its gates when my Unsullied are butchering you beneath the walls?”

[...] “Tell me this—are the Stormcrows slave or free?”

“We are a brotherhood of free men,” Sallor declared.

“Good.” Dany stood. “Go back and tell your brothers what I said, then. It may be that some of them would sooner sup on gold and glory than on death. I shall want your answer on the morrow.”

Later, Dany's assumption will be validated: Daario Naharis will rather "sup on gold and glory" rather than be killed alongside his commanders. I'll get to him later.

This is her proposal for the commander of the Second Sons:

“Then stay, and fight for me. [...] Coins can be returned,” she said. “I will pay you as much and more. I have other cities to conquer, and a whole kingdom awaiting me half a world away. Serve me faithfully, and the Second Sons need never seek hire again.”

[...] “Can I have a flagon of this fine wine to take back to my captains?”

“You may have a tun. It is from the cellars of the Good Masters of Astapor, and I have wagons full of it.”

“Then give me a wagon. A token of your good regard.”

“You have a big thirst.”

“I am big all over. And I have many brothers. The Titan’s Bastard does not drink alone, Khaleesi.”

“A wagon it is, if you promise to drink to my health.”

“Done!”

If Mero had been more thoughtful and less dismissive of Dany (who had already conquered a city and freed thousands of Unsullied at this point), perhaps he would have considered that she might have used their inebriation to her favor (she did deceive the Astapori, after all, even if she was righteous in doing so). Perhaps he wouldn't have asked for an entire wagon himself if he had taken her seriously as a threat. If she were a man, I'm sure he would have been more cautious.

Finally, this is her proposal for the Yunkish envoy:

“I have a gift for you as well.” She slammed the chest shut. “Three days. On the morning of the third day, send out your slaves. All of them. Every man, woman, and child shall be given a weapon, and as much food, clothing, coin, and goods as he or she can carry. These they shall be allowed to choose freely from among their masters’ possessions, as payment for their years of servitude. When all the slaves have departed, you will open your gates and allow my Unsullied to enter and search your city, to make certain none remain in bondage. If you do this, Yunkai will not be burned or plundered, and none of your people shall be molested. The Wise Masters will have the peace they desire, and will have proved themselves wise indeed. What say you?”

This moment makes it clear that Dany is doing what she is doing for no other reason than to end slavery in Yunkai.

She didn't have to worry about the freedmen's safety when they take part in the battle for her, but she does because it would otherwise render her fight for them meaningless.

She could have kept the chest for herself, but she didn't.

However, the envoy calls Dany mad when he hears her terms, so she has her dragons burn his tokar. It's a moment that GRRM wishes had been included in the TV show, probably because it has ramifications later in ADWD (namely when Dany is trying to make peace with the Yunkish and they won't trust her word for that reason).

Battle plans

I recently came across a good meta analyzing the Battle of Yunkai from a military standpoint. I will juxtapose certain excerpts (adapted as bullet lists) from that meta with passages showing Dany's actions and statements in the books to emphasize how capable a leader Dany is becoming:

“An hour past midnight should be time enough.”

“Yes, Khaleesi,” said Rakharo. “Time for what?” 

“To mount our attack.” 

Ser Jorah Mormont scowled. “You told the sellswords—”

“—that I wanted their answers on the morrow. I made no promises about tonight. The Stormcrows will be arguing about my offer. The Second Sons will be drunk on the wine I gave Mero. And the Yunkai’i believe they have three days. We will take them under cover of this darkness.”

“They will have scouts watching for us.”

“And in the dark, they will see hundreds of campfires burning,” said Dany. “If they see anything at all.”

“Khaleesi,” said Jhogo, “I will deal with these scouts. They are no riders, only slavers on horses.”

“Just so,” she agreed. “I think we should attack from three sides. Grey Worm, your Unsullied shall strike at them from right and left, while my kos lead my horse in wedge for a thrust through their center. Slave soldiers will never stand before mounted Dothraki.” She smiled. “To be sure, I am only a young girl and know little of war. What do you think, my lords?”

1. We know that Dany had limited knowledge about warfare (after all, she's only a 14-15 year old girl), but nonetheless she outlined a rough tactical plan which her captains did not hesitate to accept.

2. She used terms such as 'left', 'right' and 'center', which suggest that her outline was based on the assumption that the enemy forces would be arrayed in some kind of linear formation. It also implies that she's familiar with the local terrain and topography. Because if the enemy camp had been protected by natural obstacles (by the coast, a mountain or a river for example), Dany's outline would not make any sense and her captains would certainly have told her so.

3. She also seems to realize her own limitations when it comes to warfare and that the implementation of military operations are better left over to her experienced captains.

4. Dany's plan made common sense and the battle turned out to be a success: The basic idea behind her plan was to let the heavy mass of Unsullied handle the sellswords on the flanks, while the Dothraki attacked the fragile slave soldiers. She deceived her foes, took the initiative, exploited her numerical superiority and took them by surprise.

5. But her plan involved certain calculated risks: Trying to direct a battle involving thousands of men at night can be very difficult, it can easily turn into a mess, and the danger of sudden panic is always present. That is probably why her armed freedmen were held back: Their lack of discipline and lack of fighting skills could easily backfire. The Unsullied, on the other hand, were very disciplined and they were also trained in night-maneuvers. (x)

As we can see, Dany's plan shows that she knows: a) the Yunkish forces' tactical formation, b) the basic topography of the area and c) her enemies' weaknesses and how to exploit them ("I made no promises about tonight", "We will take them under cover of this darkness", "they will see hundreds of campfires burning"). Even more importantly, as the reviewer acknowledges, her captains accept her plan without any objections. This is commendable, considering that it comes from someone who lacks both experience and knowledge.

This quote is also relevant:

It took an hour to work out all the details. Now begins the most dangerous time, Dany thought as her captains departed to their commands. She could only pray that the gloom of the night would hide her preparations from the foe.

To which extent Dany participated or gave feedback in the discussion above is unknown, but we can conclusively say that she at least listened to which military operations her captains would later implement to take the city, which highlights her desire to acquire more knowledge. In fact, I would argue that the author chose not to give attention to this hour of planning because he would rather focus on Dany's outline (and character development). GRRM takes great pains to give Dany agency, portray her as a competent leader and challenge the notion that she is only a young girl who doesn't know the ways of war.

Then, something unexpected happens (though, as I said above, Dany had already considered that this might have happened, even if not 100% seriously): Daario is captured by the Unsullied and unexpectedly declares that the Stormcrows are now on Dany's side. @rainhadaenerys already explained why Dany's trust in Daario does not make her stupid for a few reasons that I'll sum up here: a) he had already betrayed the other captains and would gain nothing doing the same to her; b) having him and his 500 men on her side would guarantee that the Yunkish would be overwhelmed; c) because, despite the prophecies concerning the treasons, she knows that she must trust other people, especially since no one's loyalties are certain. I would also want to add that she makes several considerations before accepting Daario on her side:

“The Unsullied caught one of the sellswords trying to sneak into the camp.”

“A spy?” That frightened her. If they’d caught one, how many others might have gotten away?

Dany was dubious. If this Tyroshi had come to spy, this declaration might be no more than a desperate plot to save his head.

This is not the reasoning of someone who can be considered "reckless" or "stupid", but who is rather aware of possible negative implications. However, she also proves to be flexible soon afterwards: if Daario killed the other commanders and the dragons trust him, accepting his allegiance seems worth the risk (and it pays off). Anyone who dismisses her for being "shallow" here has a shallow reading of the text themselves. He's handsome, but that's just a bonus.

In fact, there's a Doylist reason why we shouldn't criticize Dany for accepting Daario - doing so would mean validating Jorah's opinion, which is not a good look. Even worse, doing so would mean undermining this powerful and more than earned moment.

Aftermath

Things go pretty much exactly the way Dany had planned and expected:

“Your Grace, I bring you victory. The Stormcrows turned their cloaks, the slaves broke, and the Second Sons were too drunk to fight, just as you said. Two hundred dead, Yunkai’i for the most part. Their slaves threw down their spears and ran, and their sellswords yielded. We have several thousand captives.”

And, as more proof (if that was even needed) that Dany was concerned for the number of freedmen that would end up as casualties when she decided to attack the Yunkish when they didn't expect it:

“Our own losses?” 

“A dozen. If that many.”

Only then did she allow herself to smile.

I won't comment much on the mhysa scene because it doesn't really concern Dany's decision-making. I will say, though, that their reaction shows that they are grateful for her actions (see above, again, how the slaves are treated in Tyrion's chapters) and that it highlights, once again, the righteousness of Dany's cause.

(I've already written about what mhysa means for Dany here and here. Also, because this scene is understandably controversial ... here and here you can find good posts about the racism in the writing of Dany's storyline as a whole in a way that doesn't mischaracterize her.)

How Dany assesses the advice she receives

I'm putting this section in the end because there are only two moments (and one goes beyond the scope of this post) in which Dany receives advice in this chapter. This makes sense: as I said, despite Dany's limitations due to age and experience, GRRM really wanted to highlight how influential she was on the outcome of the battle.

The one moment that we see Dany getting advice is after she meets with the Stormcrows and the Second Sons. Both Barristan and Jorah agree that she is probably not going to get their support - Mero is treacherous and Prendahl had family amongst the Astapori. There isn't much she can do but accept their warning, but I find this line interesting:

“It is not his reputation that I want, it’s his five hundred horse.[”]

Dany is a traditional hero(ine) in so many ways, so it would be easier to portray her as someone who is unambiguously and plainly wary of the sellswords' lack of morals. However, moments like this and the one later in ADWD Daenerys VIII when she finds that being "dishonorable and greedy" can be advantageous if she wants the sellswords to turn to her side show that Dany is actually quite down-to-earth and flexible and doesn't suffer from moral righteousness like some think. In fact, if Dany had that problem, I'm not sure she would have thought that deceiving the slave masters (justified as that was) and revolting against an entire economic system would be okay; it's more likely that she would have had Barristan's attitude instead (i.e., leaving the region behind while feeling empathy but doing nothing about it). It's also a little detail that shows how GRRM maintains her characterization consistent, for it would be easy to forget that aspect of Dany by the time he got to writing ADWD.

(Of course, it's not so simple as to say that she's okay with their immorality. She is suspicious of them - we see with Daario that she doesn't fully trust him nor reacted well to that advice to kill all the masters in the Temple of the Graces.)

#daenerys targaryen #asoiaf meta #dany and her choices #valyrianscrolls #a storm of swords

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thelawyerthatwaspromised · 6 years

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We Really Need to Talk About the Forehead Kiss Scene

Consider this another iteration of the Sansa and Jon “Would that be so terrible?” scene that I covered a little while back.

For a lot of people that believe that Jonsa will happen, the scene on the battlements in “The Winds of Winter”, the finale episode of the sixth season of Game of Thrones, is the starting point of that belief.

It’s unusually sweet, as Jon and Sansa scenes tend to be. It’s almost semi-unnecessary to the plot. It’s the last we see of Jon before it’s revealed that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, making this decidedly un-sibling like interaction with Sansa a bit less suspicious except upon rewatch. (Sidenote, imagine if this scene took place after we learned about R+L=J...)

But a lot of Jonsa skeptics (I’ll call them that though there are obviously varying degrees of this such as “venomous”) seem unable to understand why this particular scene feels so different from just about every single other scene on the show. To me, there are multiple factors that make this particular scene unique from any other on the show.

It’s an almost perfect example of a “romance setup” from multiple angles.

1.) It didn’t really advance the “plot”

For some reason, this scene was included among the 10 most crucial scenes of the series by HBO pre-season 7 buuuuut not a lot happened at face value.

Jon had just banished Melissandre for burning someone alive (inquisitive emoji) and was watching her leave on the battlements. He’s approached by Sansa. She says she’s sorry. He credits her for winning the battle. They say they need to trust each other. They leave. So why is a “recap of events” considered a crucial scene? Why was it on the show at all? Viewers wanted to know what Jon was going to do about Sansa arriving with the KotV and if they were going to have a conflict about it. Except that part took about 5 seconds. And the opposite happened.

Similar to the Littlefinger choke scene in season 7, this didn’t really directly affect the actions of the characters in any way. Even if a scene doesn’t advance “plot”, it’s meant to advance the “story”. What happens here between Jon and Sansa? It revealed something between the two of them that wasn’t revealed simply through the dialogue. It’s inclusion in the show at all should leave you wondering about its purpose, but the added layers of the length, framing, and use of reaction shots should make it fairly obvious that it’s a romantic scene.

2.) Both characters are pleasantly surprised by each other’s tenderness towards the other

I think to really grasp this scene, you have to get inside the heads of each character.

Normally, any surprise in Game of Thrones is a bad thing. The strange quality of the battlements scene is that it’s an inversion of the normal routine. We need to take a step back and evaluate the psychology of Jon and Sansa as they’re entering.

Jon has just banished the person who resurrected him. He’s just won a battle that he knows he should have lost. He’s clearly been quite introspective about Sansa and what she meant and her importance in winning the battle since he’s already preparing her chambers. Somehow, the tent scene is magnified in its intensity because this scene is its exact opposite and it’s where we last left off with Jon and Sansa.

Sansa pleaded with Jon to listen to her.

To be fair to Jon, it’s hard to understand what Sansa is saying but instead of trying to understand her more, he allows them to be dead locked and unable to finish their thoughts.

and it ends with Jon’s sad resignation that he desperately wants to win but he’s not sure if he can.

So this was the last time they spoke privately before the battle. Jon feels guilt for failing to listen. Sansa feels guilt for calling in Littlefinger, an option neither she nor Jon would have wanted.

Then - their relationship suddenly became stronger because of the weakness they revealed to each other. Instead of punishing each other, they forgive each other. Instead of gloating, Sansa reaches out and expresses to Jon that she never wanted it that way. Instead of holding it against Sansa, Jon reaches back and validates her importance in multiple ways.

The most rewarding part is how they each give wonderful gestures to each other in turn without being prompted.

He’s publicly affirmed her place as the Lady of Wintefell...

She objects but only because she thinks he should be seen as the head of the family...

Sansa tells him he should take it. Jon responds with a sad smile and says he’s not a Stark. And then Sansa gives Jon the most gentle but meaningful affirmation that he’s ever gotten on the show...

“You are to me.”

(I decided halfway through this to leave the text off the gifs because I want the focus on the micro expressions of the actors because...damn...)

What else could anyone say to Jon that would mean more to him at this point? His entire life has been marked by his non-Starkness. Sansa is working to undo the biggest source of his sadness without his ever asking for it.

Jon’s gift to Sansa is recognition and it comes in two parts;

1) “You’re the Lady of Winterfell.” He was right there as Lyanna Mormont referred to her as a Lannister and a Bolton. He was right there as Lord Glover looked right into her eyes and told her that House Stark is dead. No. Jon is determined that those statements are to be corrected.

2) “We’re standing here because of you.” He’s not just “gifting” her the position and the lord’s chamber. She’s earned it in his eyes. Her place is meant to be elevated above his at this point. This is before he was crowned as king. He was content for her to be in charge until he was thrust into the position of command.

So what does Sansa do? He’s just basically said “you were right” and she has a chance to respond. Does she gloat? Does she say “well yes I suppose I am the last remaining Stark (that we know of) and so I should rule our house...I also command the loyalty of the Vale”? None of that, she apologizes to him. She’s still expecting his anger and disappointment and feels she deserves it.

And it makes sense. Leave aside that it was absolutely necessary for Sansa to bring in the KotV and ask yourself “when was the last time Sansa was ever actually rewarded or treated gently by someone she thought she wronged?” She’s existed in a constant state of punishment since Littlefinger betrayed Ned in the throne room in season 1. Misery is her expectation. Her expression as Jon approaches confirms this exactly.

Part is her actual guilt, and I’m sure part of it is an expectation based on her experiences...and to her pretty obvious surprise, Jon does the exact opposite.

HA. You’ll have to wait for the kiss gifs because I want to change gears now.

The entire last section was explaining why this scene was so unexpected given the context of the setup. Both characters had reasons to treat the other harshly. Jon for his stubbornness. Sansa for not telling Jon about the Vale. All the components were there to reinforce an ongoing feud between the two. These were the factors commonly cited by those oh-so-brilliant Starkbowl predictions leading up to season 7.

Yet despite that tension, we didn’t get a shouting match and glares and future plotting. We got a moment of clarity for once...and a whole new set of questions about these two. The beauty of their quiet moment together was in its simplicity - but also in the way that the writers indicated that there was so much more going on than we could have ever known.

Yet all of this information is packed into a scene that’s so quiet and slow. It’s in the romantic pacing.

3.) The Pacing

Jon and Sansa have had always had a distinct strangeness to their scenes in that they’re almost all completely different from any other. Their reunion was a moment of triumph for any Stark fans as they were the first two reunited since the pilot episode. Their fireside chat started incredibly sweet and ended with the heightened stakes of Sansa attempting to convince Jon to re-take Winterfell. The Pink Letter scene is the realization that their little oasis was about to meet the realities of a harsh world that still viewed both of them as threats.

The cloak scene where Sansa gifts Jon a Stark cloak after Jon takes keen interest in Sansa’s new dress is another moment where each took the initiative to validate the other without any prompting.

They argued twice, while at the encampment and in the tent before the battle, but each scene was unique as Sansa indirectly criticized Jon’s decisions to follow Davos considering Stannis’ ultimate failure, and Jon mostly tried to tune Sansa’s arguments out - while the tent scene is where those complaints came into a direct collision.

Then they met on the battlements and it was equally emotional but in a total reverse of tone.

Simply put, this scene was about “Jon & Sansa” as an entity and not about “Jon” having a talk with “Sansa”. It’s all in the pacing and it’s all in the framing.

We already know the setup. Now comes the payoff. Jon has already told Sansa they need to trust each other. That would be the “plot” purpose of the scene. As far as things happening that affect the story directly, it could have ended right there. “It’s ok Sansa. We’re a team now.” Or, alternatively, Jon could have kissed Sansa’s forehead and THEN said they need to trust each other and the tone could be viewed entirely differently. Instead, the show disposed of the “textual” purpose of the scene and continued right through with the “subtext” (which also continued into season 7) which is: what exactly is the nature of Jon and Sansa’s relationship?

It’s not just the forehead kiss. It’s not just the romantic back drop. It’s not just the setup. It’s not just the micro expression of the actors. It’s not just that the whole scene is relatively unnecessary. It’s all of that mixed together.

This is where the pacing comes into play. Let’s recap the scene to this point...

Sansa gets about 13 seconds of an entrance before Jon tells her he’s having the lord’s chamber prepared for her.

Sansa waits 3 seconds before answering “mother and father’s room?”

Jon waits about 3 seconds before he says he’s not a Stark.

Sansa answers “you are to me” almost immediately.

Jon has roughly a 5 second reaction shot.

There’s about a 5 second pause after Jon gives Sansa credit for winning the battle before Sansa starts apologizing.

Sansa says sorry and Jon waits about 6 seconds before he even starts walking over to her.

There’s about 3 seconds between Jon saying they have enemies and him reaching up to kiss her.

Jon gets roughly 3 seconds to kiss Sansa and about 4 seconds of gazing at her (and her gazing at him). They make this moment last.

Then they transition into a micro expression that juuuuust says everything.

The second Jon closes his lips, he looks down and abruptly starts to walk away. But his mood has immediately turned almost melancholy or sort of a confusion. It’s not normal to kiss someone tenderly and then just turn around and leave. Even if it were entirely platonic. There’s something left unsaid...especially since the camera focuses on the post-kiss for almost 6 seconds altogether before Jon starts to leave. Viewers aren’t the only ones left a bit bewildered.

Sansa’s reaction tells the same story.

She stands in the same position, almost frozen. She’s internally probably as confused as Jon. She came to Jon to apologize (remember, she approached him) - which I’m assuming she would have been dreading. She got her apology, and he delivered his form of “there’s nothing to forgive” which would normally signal that her part here is over. Yet he initiates physical affection for her when positive physical affection is something that’s a very complicated subject for her.

And it stuns her. As he begins to leave, we see her expressing that she doesn’t want the moment to end.

It’s ridiculously beautiful. Sansa finding a reason for Jon to get one last look, right after he had turned away in sort of Byronic melancholy, only to have her call him back again is extremely romantic given what we know about both of these characters.

The immediacy of Jon’s response in turning back towards her and the utter-seriousness of his look again makes the end of this scene a twist of its own.

“Winter is here.” That phrase is of course a play off of “Winter is coming” the words of House Stark and the ominous warning of fear and looming destruction echoed throughout the entirety of the series. Those words should mean “fear”; real “fear”. (also take note of her deliberately deep breath as her eyes scan Jon again..)

And how do they react to this potentially terrifying threat? By being adorable again!?!?

Well of course they do. Because winter is here and they are home. Think about this. Being together (moments after entering a scene which they both began reluctantly) is enough to make them smile sweetly as they acknowledge the coming storm.

And the end really cements Jon’s view of Sansa as a noble lady.

And the pure joy Sansa feels as the scene concludes.

To wrap up...the scene didn’t have to happen in the first place. The setup made you wonder if there was going to be fracture. It was tender. It was warm. It’s pacing made you sit and take notice. It didn’t waste any time - it took its time.

We were meant to see not just the displays of forgiveness and validation by Jon and Sansa towards each other. We were meant to see them expecting the worst and getting something beautiful instead. We were meant to see them wrestling with the confusion of where the scene was heading. We were meant to see them completely comfortable in each other’s presence in this very moment - and we were meant to see a very subtle but also very unsubtle indication that the direction of their relationship is causing (and must cause) them inner conflict before it can truly provide them fulfillment.

They weren’t a royal couple in this scene but I’m fully confident that after the finale season has concluded, this scene will be the one everyone can point to and say “this is where Jon and Sansa ending as king and queen truly became possible.”

#jonsa #jon x sansa #king and queen in the north #jonsa is endgame #tltwp meta

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ladyandtheghost · 6 years

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Reason #23: Ambiguity and (Duck-) Decoys - Why we have every right to question everything we have been “told” in Season 7

In “real life” we tend to go by the “duck test” (”If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.”) but in fiction we rely on the way something is presented to us by the author or film maker to denote one thing or the other.

In good fiction, plots and characters are ideally presented as multi-faceted, complex and “ambiguous”, i.e. enabling different ways of interpretation and also enabling twists and changes throughout the story (e.g. character can develop in different directions, and plots can take surprising turns known as “plot twists”)

So far, so good.

Then why is it that we are suddenly supposed to all turn our brains off and accept everything we have been presented or “told” up to Season 7 of GoT as gospel, as an unquestionable “truth” that is not up for interpretation?

If D&D tell us in Season 7 that it “looks like a duck” do we automatically have to believe it?

Pretty sure D&D laugh every time they see articles going around pushing the “decoys” they have planted in Season 7

After 7 years of being deceived and “shocked” by Game of Thrones’ twists and turns, how do we react after the penultimate season, heading for the finale? Have we learned to question the “truths” of one season going into the next?

Exactly...we haven’t.

We still tend to go for the most “obvious”, the most blatantly advertised thing - a bit like magpies, we love to be distracted by the shiny and glamorous, the “badass” moments, explosions and roaring dragons...

When it comes to plot developments and characterisation, though, the show makers are very crafty and careful not to give away too much that can not be retracted later - they “tell” us one thing, yet at the same time “show” us the opposite; they bait and switch, open up possibilities in ALL directions...

What was Littlefinger’s cryptic speech to Sansa all about^^ if not to make us aware that things are almost NEVER as they seem...

Basically, we are being explicitly “told” about one thing and therefore assume that it is exactly as it is being told and assume the characters who tell us these things are telling the truth ---> the Duck (it’s also often the “popular opinion”)

However, when we consider other interpretations of the same thing, it turns out that there is a lot of ambiguity and the “duck” may just be a “decoy” to distract us and set us up for a plot twist...

Examples:

Who or what is the Song of Ice and Fire?

The Duck/popular opinion: Jon and Dani, because Melisandre said it...and she’s always right...

Ambiguity/other interpretations: Jon himself is the son(g) of ice and fire (the R+L=J reveal yet has to happen on screen); or, it’s literally the title of the chronicle Sam will write about the two great threats to Westeros: ice = the NK; fire=Dani T.

Jon Snow’s motives in S7:

The Duck/popular opinion: Jon Snow is incapable of lying or playing “the game” because he said so in the dragon pit, and Tyrion said he trusts him and Tyrion is always right! Also, Cersei said that Jon is Ned Stark’s son and she knows Ned Stark’s son would never lie and we know that Cersei is always right..

Ambiguity/other interpretations: Jon is a political player in the game now who has lied before and has lied again to everyone about his allegiances to secure the force of dragon fire for his quest to save the North/Westeros; Jon would absolutely lie and deceive to make sure his family and people are safe and well;

Who is the “Younger, more beautiful Queen”:

The Duck/popular opinion: It can only be Da*nerys, because Margaery is dead; and Cersei thinks it’s Dany and Cersei is always right. Plus, Dani is the fan favourite everyone expects to win and get everything she wanted, so she must be the one to cast Cersei down.

Ambiguity/other interpretations: Sansa Stark who is the dark horse candidate and was there from the beginning with Cersei and has *actually* already taken “all you hold dear” away from Cersei, being the reason why Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen had to die, not to mention unwittingly contributing to their deaths; also from what we saw in the promo pics to S8, Jaime is wearing House Stark armor - Sansa is head of House Stark, so he is fighting for her now. It’s actually becoming quite blantant here...

Jon Snow’s (Romantic) Endgame:

The Duck/popular opinion: Da*nerys, because Tyrion told us Jon’s in love with her and Davos said he looked at her boobs, and both Tyrion and Davos are always right! Also because Dani loves Jon, so Jon *must* also be in love with Dani, otherwise it would not be *fair*. There is no way this love could only be on-sided because all other men are in love with Dany so Jon must be, too. And last but not least: they had sex, and we know ALL couples who have sex are endgame and get a HEA)

Ambiguity/other interpretations: Sansa who is Jon’s cousin, not sister; and continuously “shown” together with Jon in situations, scenes and contexts that are blatantly “romantic” - this is also to a lesser degree still possible with Arya, though their relationship was always clear to be a beautiful “sibling bond” and their reunion and interactions happen too late in the show now to be established as equally “ambiguous” as Jon and Sansa’s relationship; or, None of the above because Jon only loved Ygritte and is reunited with her in death - until proven otherwise this is also a valid interpretation; since Jon is canonically “shown” to care deeply for Sansa, to react (even overreact) and as it is confirmed in the scipts that their relationship has an unspoken “subtext” that permeates their interactions, Jon is framed as and “shown” to the viewer as the romantic hero to Sansa’s heroine.

Sansa Stark’s third and last husband:

The Duck/popular opinion pt. 1: Tyrion or the Hound, because they were kind to her in King’s Landing and therefore deserve to have her because girls should always give themselves to men who are “nice” to them, no matter whether they are attractive or not...

The Duck pt. 2: virtually any other young male character with the exception of Jon because Jon *belongs* to Dani and fans want them to be endgame, so if Sansa gets another shot at romance, it could be anyone - just not Jon - even candidates who never interacted with her and are already paired up in other ships, i.e. Braime or Gendrya.

Ambiguity/other interpretations: Ned Stark’s words that Sansa should marry someone “brave, gentle and strong” establish Jon as the only possible candidate by way of elimination (Tyrion is not strong; the Hound is not gentle); it also makes zero sense for Sansa to be romantically involved with any of the following: Gendry, Pod or Jaime, she had next to no contact or screen time with them and Gendry is clearly linked to Arya, just as Jaime is linked to Brienne; according to the Ashford Tourney theory, Sansa’s last suitor will be a Targaryen and there is only one male Targaryen left.

All these plot points and character arcs^^ are open for interpretation one way or another. These characters, their motivations and feelings are deliberately hidden or revealed, “shown” or “not shown” to leave the ultimate ending and the fate of these characters wide open and “ambiguous” until the moment of “revelation”, the moment when it is convenient for the writers of the story to reveal what they are truly thinking, feeling and planning.

And deep down, people know this to be true. This is how Game of Thrones works. It’s the only way it worked in the past and unless we want the final season to be the “duck” of the previous season - i.e. everything is revealed to be exactly as it has been told to us in S7 - there will be some major turn arounds and twists!

Not all of the “other interpretations” are equally possible, but they are as valid as the “duck” versions certain fans want to see. Some of the “ducks” might be right, others might just be “decoys”. And it may turn out that none of these^^ ideas by us fans are correct and D&D and GRRM throw us for an even bigger loop than we expected.

All I know is, it would be a disservice to this great show with it’s fantastic ambiguous characters and plots to assume that the writers have no more tricks up their sleeves and that they already told us exactly what is going to happen in the finale.

If so, why bother with all the secrecy - if we already saw the endgame on the EW cover?

#jonsa #jon x sansa #Anti-Jonerys #anti-daenerys #reasons #meta

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fortunatelylori · 6 years

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Hey, fortunatelylori! I'm sorry if this question is dumb or if this is just not "your sphere of interest", but what do you think of Tyrion Targaryen theory? Well, not a Targaryen actually, since he'd be a bastard according to that theory. I feel like we were given foreshadowing in the show, but my question is - where does it go? Why do we need him as a son of Mad King? What for, what'd it affect? I really don't want to bother you with this, I just felt like you might have the best explanation.

Hey, @casualpolicepenguin!

Your question is absolutely not dumb nor is there any need to apologize. I love talking about ASOIAF/GOT. That’s why I have a blog, after all. Also it’s nice to get asks that aren’t only about Jonsa/D*ny since talking about the same things over and over again gets stilted after a while. Particularly when there’s no new content … Still salty about that, in case you couldn’t tell. :)))

The Tyrion Targareyen bastard theory really frustrates me and I don’t believe there’s any real reason why it should have been embraced by the fandom at large with the amount of certainty that it has since the reasons why it’s so popular feel flimsy and more like wish fulfillment to me than anything else.

So I guess a good place to start is to attempt to break it down and see what the actual evidence for it is. In case I miss something along the way, guys, please feel free to step in and add to it. I think it’s important when talking about a theory, even one we don’t agree with, to analyze all the evidence presented and not just the pieces we can debunk.

So what is this theory exactly?

It all seems to hanker back to Aerys “Mad King” Targareyen’s acrimonious relationship with Tywin Lannister and Tywin’s insistence that Tyrion is not his son. The theory goes that during Joanna Lannister’s visit to King’s Landing when she presented child twins Jaime and Cersei to the court, Aerys raped Joanna and impregnated her with Tyrion, thus making Tyrion the blood of the dragon.

Based on this first assumption, the theory delves further and designates Tyrion as the 3rd dragon rider who together with D*ny and Jon are destined to save the world from the White Walker apocalypse, thus linking him to the “Dragon must have 3 heads” theory.

Right off the bat this theory is based more on assumption than canon evidence because several things need to be true in order to confirm this theory, all of them doubtful:

Joanna was raped by Aerys

This is based on the Anniversary Tourney in King’s Landing in 272 AC incident, during which Aerys insulted Joanna by asking her if nursing her children had ruined her breasts, and the king refused the outraged Tywin’s resignation the next day. Aerys, being the asswipe that he was, had expressed similar sentiments regarding Joanna in the past, going as far as to compare his wife to her and find her lacking because Joanna had given Tywin two healthy children unlike Rhaella who struggled with miscarriages through out their marriage (as well as systematic abuse and rape at the hands of her husband).

Does this mean there’s reason to believe Aerys would go as far as to rape Joanna? I don’t believe so. Aerys might have been attracted to her but the insults he piled on her were less for his own enjoyment and more towards humiliating Tywin in front of the court, because Aerys hated and feared him in equal measure.

I think it’s safe to say he wouldn’t go as far as to rape Joanna because that kind of thing wouldn’t have gone unnoticed and would have certainly provoked Tywin into some very serious war-related action and as mad as Aerys was I doubt he would have gone as far as all that considering he could have executed Tywin the way he did the Starks and never did.

Part of the reason why Aerys hated Tywin Lannister as much as he did was because he needed him. In fact he was dependent on him and slighting him by raping his wife would have been something that Tywin, one of the most vengeful people in this series, would have never tolerated, not only because he loved his wife but also because Tywin’s greatest fear in life is being made a fool of or for people to assume that he’s not strong enough to retaliate.

Which brings us to:

Tywin saying Tyrion is not his son

Should we take at face value that Tywin has reasons to suspect Tyrion is not his son? Again, I don’t think so. If Tywin had any inkling that Tyrion was not actually a Lannister, he would have killed him the moment he was born. He might have spared him had Joanna lived but since she died giving birth to him, there would have been no one to stay his hand from doing it.

The only reason why Tyrion survived into adulthood was because despite his hatred of his son, Tywin knew he was a Lannister.

This links back to the importance that Tyrion actually be Tywin’s son because if he isn’t, then Tywin’s rejection of him loses narrative import.

The way GRRM has set-up Tyrion’s narrative is that he is slowly but surely turning into his father: the increasing fear and resentment of being mocked, the terrifying degree of vengefulness, his increasingly abusive relationship with Penny, his cruelty towards the sex slaves he encounters in Slaver’s Bay, etc. - they all point to Tyrion becoming more and more like Tywin. What GRRM is doing with this character is applying dramatic irony: the son that Tywin rejected, the one that was most traumatized and in fear of him, that seemingly rejected his worldview is the one that ends up resembling him the most.

Tyrion not being Tywin’s son would take the narrative equivalent of a sledge hammer to all that development and declare it null and void.

“The Dragon must have 3 heads” prophecy is about the War of the Dawn

We simply do not have enough information about this prophecy in order to make that assumption. We don’t even know if Raeghar Targareyen believed it to be the case or if he was pursuing the fulfillment of this prophecy for different reasons. Also considering the utter mess that Raeghar inflicts upon himself and the world, it’s doubtful that even if he believed the 3 heads of the dragon to be the solution to the White Walker threat that he did, in fact, interpret it correctly. My suspicion is he didn’t but again we don’t know anything about this prophecy aside from Raeghar’s cryptic words and that D*ny has 3 dragons, two of which do not have riders at this time.

By making Tyrion the son of Aerys, and thus the blood of the dragon, GRRM would also duplicate Jon’s narrative role and arc. In this scenario, Tyrion would be a royal bastard, hidden away for years, ignorant of his origins or his true importance. I’m sorry but that feels repetitive as hell.

GRRM’s works with narrative foils as well as the “everything is something you have seen before” type of cyclical plotting but he’s already set up foil for Jon in this regard (Jon has several) and that’s the Young Griff. He’s the heir who has been hidden away and now sets on the path to reclaim his birthright. Except that if the Young Griff is Jon’s foil that, by definition, means he isn’t who he appears to be which is the twist in his story.

There is no twist in Tyrion actually being Aerys’ son, but rather a rehash of Jon’s plotline. Nor can he be a foil for Jon because he’s never been set up as one.Also considering the mountain of evidence GRRM set-up for the R + L = J theory, the flimsiness of the Tyrion Targ bastard theory is even more glaring.

Then there’s Bran’s arc to consider. His story parallels the legend of the Last Hero, the man that ended the first long night. If the 3 heads of the dragon are going to end the apocalypse, what is Bran’s importance to the narrative? It seems dubious to me that he would take a secondary role in the conflict that he’s linked to directly.

In terms of foreshadowing in the books/show, personally I find the pieces rather unconvincing:

Both in the books and in the show, Tyrion talks about dragons with wonder and awe and mentions having dreams about them as a child.

We do know that Targareyens tend to be plagued by prophetic type visions and dreams about dragons and fire so people assume that’s what Tyrion had as well. But I disagree.

From the way it’s framed, Tyrion talks about his childhood fascination with dragons in the same way a kid today might talk about a T-Rex. It doesn’t seem strange to me that a kid as intellectually curious and as fond of reading and stories like Tyrion would be fascinated with dragons.

In addition to that, this could foreshadow Tyrion meeting D*ny and playing a role in her council. Targareyen bastard isn’t really the only option why this might be employed.

Also, compare Tyrion’s recollection of his dreams with D*ny’s visions prior to hatching her dragons. Really not on the same level.

In the show, Tyrion interacts with D*ny’s dragons and they don’t burn him alive

This one is the only thing that truly gives me pause because I can’t figure out why the writers chose to include it. Partly, I assume it’s meant to show us how brilliant and awesome Tyrion is for not only figuring out that the dragons need to be unchained but also that he’s so persuasive that the usually violent creatures don’t harm him.

It would be interesting to see if GRRM has book Tyrion do the same thing at some point since it’s canon evidence that the last person who tried to enter the dragon lair (pun intended) ended up burned to a crisp (Quentyn Martell).

It’s not debunkable though since it’s also canon that during the Targareyen rule of Westeros, there was stables filled with dragons that were tended by people who did not have Targ blood so presumably the creatures do tolerate other people aside from the blood of the dragon near them. (as is also the case with D*ny’s entourage on Dragonstone)

my question is - where does it go? Why do we need him as a son of Mad King? What for, what’d it affect?

The short answer to your question is that Tyrion’s fans need Tyrion to be the son of the Mad King. However, the narrative not only doesn’t need this theory, it would actually affect both Tyrion’s narrative arc (him turning into Tywin) as well as Jon’s story (as the secret heir to the Iron Throne) and Bran’s.

So why do Tyrion’s fans need this theory? For several reasons:

It makes Tyrion special and keeps him plot relevant

Tyrion’s specialness is the reason why so many people love the character. He outsmarts everyone, he makes all the brilliant points, he plots his way out of everything. The fact that GRRM has a soft spot for him and, as such, he’s ended up having the most chapters in the story comes to enforce the idea that he is somehow crucial to the endgame.

I tend to disagree with this. GRRM loves writing from Tyrion’s POV and he’s also utilized Tyrion as the only Lannister POV character for a long time. However, his importance has waned in recent times with the addition of Cersei and Jaime as POV characters as well as by the increase of the magic in the story.

If the last two books are ever published, I think people are going to be in for quite a shock as Tyrion recedes more and more into a secondary character role in the narrative. His narrative importance will be taken over by Jon and D*ny. And partly that’s because he is, in no way, involved in the resolution of the White Walker threat, nor does he have the abilities or position to be a main character in the Dance of Dragons 2.0. He will be a support character, most likely, in D*ny’s storyline. Which is not something that Tyrion’s fans can accept lightly.

But, just to reinforce this point, look at how sidelined Tyrion has been in season 7 (compared to other seasons) as well as contemplate the idea of eliminating him completely from the narrative at this point (both in the books and in the show). Does anyone truly believe that the endgame is going to be significantly affected by his absence?

He’s not even essential in Cersei’s storyline since the most important roles will most likely be occupied by Sansa as the Younger, More Beautiful Queen (or D*ny or literally anyone but Tyrion) and Jaime as the the valonqar (or Arya, or Bran, or Euron or literally anyone but Tyrion).

That’s not to say he won’t have a story but since he’s not essential to any of the major plotlines, he can’t, by extension, be a main character in any of them.

If he’s the 3rd head of the dragon, on the other hand … you see where I’m going with this.

Tyrion is a hero

Tyrion’s fans have a very difficult time accepting the fact that Tyrion is a villain. A sympathetic, traumatized, entertaining villain but a villain none the less. But don’t take my word for it. Take GRRM’s

Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I’ve got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He’s the villain of course, but hey, there’s nothing like a good villain.

(source)

He’s molded on Shakespeare’s Richard III, for heaven’s sake. (further enforced by the Arya sample chapter in TWOW where the actors Arya is involved with stage a play that is modled directly after Richard III with the Tyrion actor giving a strikingly similar monologue to Shakespeare’s Richard’s famous speech)

He also has done the following: (there’s more but these are highlights)

1. Sexually assaulted a 12 year old that he married in order to become Lord of Winterfell.

2. Murdered his girlfriend/hired companion

3. Raped two sex slaves (repeatedly while bemoaning the loss of his wife whom he was coerced into raping by his father … another one of those pesky Tyrion is turning into Tywin warning signs)

3. Abuses Penny

4. Wants to rape his sister and cause harm to the child hostage he forced into marriage and assaulted.

To understand just how much his fans take offence to people mentioning these canon events, I’d just like to mention that a few weeks back I posted a vid by someone talking about whitewashing characters from book to film, in which Tyrion’s character is mentioned alongside him killing Shae and how that is approached in the books vs. the show. I tagged said vid “tyrion lannister” only to get an anonymous message telling me I was being disrespectful for posting “anti” opinions in the Tyrion tag.

Tyrion’s fans require that they be shielded not only from criticism of Tyrion but also from his canon actions.

The 3 heads of the dragon plays right into that because it places Tyrion firmly in the “good guy’s camp” even though he has absolutely no business being there in the first place.

Nevermind that in this theory Tyrion is the product of rape. Nevermind that it perpetuates the idea of Targ exceptionalism (all fruits of Aerys’ loins are awesome, special snowflakes - with the exception of Viserys, apparently). Nevermind that it goes against the narrative that GRRM set up. Everything is valid as long as Tyrion comes out looking white as snow, independent of how many women he rapes by the time he gets there.

Thanks for the ask!

#anti-tyrion #because tyrion's fans need to be protected from tyrion

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douxreviews · 5 years

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Game of Thrones - ‘The Last of the Starks’ Review

"We may have defeated them, but there's still us to contend with."

Previously, I'd written reviews for a couple of different episodes centered around epic battles. In this case, I felt fortunate to be reviewing an episode that's all about the aftermath of an epic battle, as well as a prelude for the next one.

Because I really couldn't decide how I felt about the sudden end to the White Walkers, the Long Night and the Great War until I saw how they planned to go forward. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but I do know that -- as rushed as The Last of the Starks was -- there is a lot here that I quite enjoyed. At the very least, taking the zombies and ice demons out at the midway point leaves plenty of room to further explore the joys and pains of these awesome characters as they face an uncertain future.

Celebration of Life

The episode's opening is very bittersweet. We start with the somber mass funeral of those who died defending Winterfell from the Army of the Dead, and neatly segue into a joyous victory feast in the castle's great hall. These people just overcame death incarnate, and quickly realize there is much to celebrate. This leads to some beautiful moments.

Dany surprises everyone by singling out Gendry, son of her lifelong nemesis, and legitimizing him as a full-fledged Baratheon. I especially loved that Davos began the cheers for him, it's a nice vindication of his undying loyalty to the family.

Tormund once again attempts to woo Brienne of Tarth, but this time gets soundly cock-blocked by Jaime Lannister. Watching Tormund tearfully relate this tragedy to the uncaring Hound before shacking up with some horny northern girl was hilarious. Which gives us the scene between Sansa and Sandor Clegane, a reunion I had been waiting for.

Although not quite as intimate as it is in the books, theirs is still a significant connection; he helped inspire her strength, and she helped inspire his chivalry. It was nice to see Sansa gain the Hound's respect, and it's always nice to see this hard man's softer, more vulnerable side.

And we finally see Jaime and Brienne become a thing. That love scene was so cleverly adorable in its execution, these two misfits struggling to approach the act of consummating their feelings toward each other. Brienne's awkward stiffness as she finds herself in a mutually romantic situation for the first time in her life, and Jaime's even more awkward attempt at flirting after a lifetime of ignoring all other women in favor of his twin sister. Very well handled.

Of course, there are still a couple of episodes left and they can't be full of nothing but our favorite characters happily prospering. As Littlefinger previously addressed, and as Tyrion reaffirms here, defeating the mythical White Walkers and saving the world means everyone must now deal with that world and each other.

Moments of Truth

Daenerys is quick to recognize this as well. The celebration only reminds her that she is still a stranger in her own homeland, that Jon Snow is the heroic leader people revere, and that his claim to the throne is stronger than hers regardless of whatever her destiny truly is. Emilia Clarke's performance shines here in a way I haven't seen for a couple of seasons now. This is because for the most part we only see her wearing Dany's queenly mask of superiority, mostly cool but occasionally smoldering. Whereas now we are seeing Dany in a state of palpable desperation.

The scene between her and Jon really brings their circumstances down to earth quite dramatically. They are in love and want to be together, but the truth of Jon's origin threatens to tear them apart and the realm along with them. Dany begs Jon not to reveal his secret identity to anyone else, but he feels compelled to tell Sansa and Arya because they are his family.

I'm disappointed that we don't see Sansa and Arya's immediate reactions to the truth, but their choices later on are just as telling.

Sansa chooses to betray Jon's trust by spilling the beans to Tyrion, hoping to erode Dany's power in favor of Jon. This would almost certainly guarantee an Iron Throne controlled by the Starks.

Arya chooses to join the Hound on a suicide mission to King's Landing, which is a bit more ambiguous. Is she questioning her own existence after learning Jon's secret and refusing Gendry's proposal, finally accepting that she wasn't born to be a subservient sister or wife but an instrument of death? Or is she risking her life in order to protect Jon, who she will always love as her brother, no matter where he came from?

Either way, it seems like a lot of carnage could have been avoided if Arya had just offered to go south and single-handedly assassinate Cersei for Jon and Dany.

The R+L=J revelation also leads to a few great scenes between Tyrion and Varys. Tyrion is clearly distressed, but Varys (rather hypocritically) begins suggesting that they should kick Dany to the curb and put Jon on the Iron Throne. It's been so long since we've seen the serious side to this duo. Now it seems Varys is poised to betray the queen he marked as a savior, in the name of the people. Meaning he's probably got dragonfire in his future. Or maybe not. The way their last conversation ends, you get the feeling that Tyrion's plea for Varys not to threaten Dany is more of a warning. Tyrion did start off his relationship with Varys by threatening to kill him for potentially endangering a woman he cared about.

For once, Tyrion is the character who's really hard to read. He seems to know Jon is a more ideal choice, but he can't bring himself to consider betraying Dany. He fears Dany's potential for madness and destruction, but he also genuinely believes in her potential for greatness.

I still think Tyrion's loyalty to Dany goes beyond just finding a ruler worth sticking with. Part of me thinks he's got some repressed romantic feelings toward her, and another part of me thinks he views her as the sister Cersei never was. Which likely makes the fact that they are at war with Cersei all the more complicated, since Tyrion just can't bring himself to give up on her.

Despite the whacky Stark kids, the legendary warriors and the various schemers and pretenders to the throne, the story really does seem to center around our three main outsiders, Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion. And I think Tyrion is drinking so much because he understands that he is caught in the middle and has the burden of deciding all of their fates and doesn't know the right choice. He is finally beginning to see the long shadow he is casting.

And despite Jon's stubborn optimism that everyone can get along, even he seems indecisive and adrift. He claims to not want the throne or the crown or even his "true" identity, but his departure from Winterfell shows us that he's still leaving behind everything that's been a core part of who he is: the North, the Free Folk, his friends and family, he even asks Tormund to bring his direwolf Ghost beyond the Wall. Whether he knows it or not, he is being drawn toward the Iron Throne, his supposed destiny. But his scenes in this episode drive the point home that he will always be Jon Snow at heart, not Aegon Targaryen VI. His connection to the Starks, the North, the First Men (hell, maybe even the Old Gods) is clearly much stronger than the blood of the dragon running through his veins.

Death of Dragons

And to drive this point home, immediately after Jon leaves Ghost behind, his dragon Rhaegal winds up dead.

Yes, "The Last War" quickly goes wrong for Dany as Euron Greyjoy lays an ambush at Dragonstone, destroying the rest of the Targaryen fleet and capturing Missandei in addition to killing one of her dragons with new souped up scorpions.

It's both frustrating and amazing that Cersei has been allowed to turn the tables like this, though forgivable in that it's largely a result of other people. Euron's unpredictable nature and talent for raising hell is key to her strength, Jaime's theft of the Tyrell wealth is the only reason she could afford the Golden Company, and she likely wouldn't have gotten this far if a crazy resourceful bastard like Qyburn hadn't been backing her up. Gold, cruelty and fool's luck have subsequently left her in a position where she is more dominant than a woman who had previously dominated almost half a continent.

Dealing with an enemy as maddeningly chaotic and power hungry as Cersei is doing the opposite of what Tyrion wants by provoking Dany to be just as bad or worse in her quest for victory. That Tyrion continues to delude himself into thinking Cersei is "not a monster" because she "loved her children" still annoys me. You could argue that he's trying to reason with her simply to avoid any more bloodshed, but Tyrion should be smart enough to know by now that appealing to Cersei's humanity and rationality is hopeless. Which Cersei proves by having the Mountain decapitate Missandei, spitting on Dany's last bit of mercy. Our dragon queen has never been closer to giving the order to "burn them all" than she is now.

Missandei's resolute final words -- "Dracarys", which calls back to the moment she went from enslaved translator to royal herald when Dany began her revolution in Slaver's Bay -- might give us some hope for sweet revenge and catharsis, but I imagine the end result will be more difficult to reconcile. King's Landing is a powderkeg just waiting to go off. I mean, we've got the combined Stark and Targaryen forces about to do battle with the combined Lannisters, Ironborn and Golden Company sellswords, Dany unleashing her wrath on dragonback while Cersei uses the populace of King's Landing as a shield, the Hound facing off against the Mountain, Arya coming to kill Cersei and Jaime possibly on his way to do the same (more on that below), there's a good chance Cersei will use wildfire again to give her more of an edge, all on top of Tyrion and Varys butting heads as they toy with Jon and Dany's lives in the game of thrones.

If The Long Night was any indication, we'll likely see most of this resolved in the next episode after much senseless violence. However, unless everyone ends up killing each other, that still leaves a bunch of other unanswered questions. Will our heroes Jon and Dany come to terms with who they are? How does Tyrion go on after the downfall of his dysfunctional family? Can the Stark children ever come back from the tragedies and horrors that have defined their lives? Is what's left of Westeros going to survive the long winter? How long will this winter be? Why are the seasons so long anyway? If the realm does survive, will it and its people learn from this devastation and evolve, or forget and doom themselves to repeat history over and over? What exactly is the Prince That Was Promised, or the Lord of Light? Where does any of this magic come from? Does Bronn get his fancy castle? Was the Three-Eyed Bran the bad guy all along? Will the gallant cat Ser Pounce ever return?

I guess I'll find out, one way or another. Hard to believe this show's almost over.

Schemes & Plots:

* The funeral scene got to me. Guess I just wasn't ready to see characters like Jorah, Theon or Dolorous Edd get laid to rest.

* I love how Podrick casually sets up a threesome in the background as Sansa talks to Sandor.

* Bronn gets a scene with Jaime and Tyrion that, while fun, is basically a retread of most other scenes between these characters. Which pretty much boils down to this: "You fuckers owe me a castle!" I know it's a cute way of illustrating that Bronn would rather not kill the Lannister bros, but realistically he should have cut his losses a long time ago.

* Varys mentions that the "new Prince of Dorne" has declared for Daenerys. Whoever this is, I doubt we'll ever see him. Guess the show chose to forget that Oberyn Martell had eight daughters, which would leave five still alive after the demise of the loathsome Sand Snakes.

* Gilly is pregnant with Sam's baby. Big surprise, they're gonna name it Jon if it's a boy.

* Not long after the Jaime/Brienne ship sets sail, it capsizes when Jaime learns that Cersei is gaining the advantage over Dany. He then apparently abandons his chance at honor, love and peace to go back to Cersei, breaking Brienne's heart. Or so it would seem. I think Jaime is really going back to put an end to Cersei himself, and simply played the villain to keep Brienne from following him to almost certain death. Jaime states the unforgivable things he's done for Cersei as if to affirm that he is just like her, but I think this is him owning up to the fact that loving Cersei made him into a monster, something he doesn't want to be. In this light, Jaime killing Cersei would be as poetic as Tyrion killing Tywin; their struggle to please these hateful tyrants enslaved them both, forcing them to compromise their principles and accept lives of humiliation and scorn. A missing sword hand isn't Jaime's greatest handicap no more than dwarfism was Tyrion's. It's Cersei. She's a chain he needs to break free from.

* Watching Jaime struggle to unbutton his tunic or ready his horse makes me think of all the other one-handed difficulties he must have dealt with during his solo journey north.

* I still really hate that there's no snow in King's Landing. After all the talk about how "Winter is Coming", winter has had far less representation than I imagined.

* Tyrion's parlay with Qyburn reminded me of the deleted scene from The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King where the heroes meet the Mouth of Sauron.

* We see the way this world's history repeats itself through Gendry. House Baratheon was originally founded by a man said to have been Aegon the Conqueror's bastard brother, and they are once again made rulers of the Stormlands by another Targaryen conqueror. It's taken even further when an overjoyed Gendry asks Arya to be his wife and gets rejected, just like his father Robert was rejected by Lyanna Stark. The Baratheons are typically very gifted individuals, but they are woefully unlucky when it comes to love and family.

* Speaking of history repeating, it turns out Cersei really is manipulating Euron the same way she manipulated King Robert, tricking him into believing that her Lannister incest baby is his Greyjoy heir to the throne.

* Rhaegal died at Dragonstone after being unceremoniously impaled by three javelins and sinking into the waters. This was similar to his namesake, Rhaegar Targaryen, the Prince of Dragonstone who was unceremoniously defeated and died in the waters of the Trident.

* Still not enough Ghost.

Quotes:

Sandor Clegane: Used to be you couldn't look at me. Sansa Stark: That was a long time ago. I've seen much worse than you since then. Sandor: Yes, I've heard. Heard you were broken in. Heard you were broken in rough. Sansa: And he got what he deserved. I gave it to him. Sandor: How? Sansa: Hounds. Sandor: (chuckles) ... You've changed, little bird.

Jaime Lannister: You know the first thing I learned about the North? I hate the fucking North. Brienne of Tarth: It grows on you. Jaime: I don't want things growing on me.

Daenerys Targaryen: (to Jon) I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way, but never here. Never on this side of the sea.

Jon Snow: If you only trust the people you grow up with, you won't make many allies. Arya Stark: That's alright. I don't need many allies.

Tormund Giantsbane: (to Jon) You've got the north in you. The real north.

Sandor Clegane: (to Arya) Must've felt good, sticking your knife in that horned fucker.

Varys: How many others know? Tyrion: Including us? Eight. Varys: Then it's not a secret anymore. It's information.

Varys: You know our queen better than I do. Do you think she wants to share the throne? She doesn't like to have her authority questioned-- Tyrion: Something she has in common with every monarch who ever lived. Varys: I worry about her state of mind. Tyrion: We're advisors to the queen. Worrying about her state of mind is our job... We still have to take King's Landing. Maybe Cersei will win and kill us all. That would solve all our problems.

Euron Greyjoy: She's coming for you. Cersei Lannister: Of course, she is. Keep the gates open. If she wants to take the castle she'll have to murder thousands of innocent people first. So much for the Breaker of Chains.

Daenerys: They should know who to blame when the sky falls down upon them. Damn.

Varys: I have served tyrants most of my life. They all talk about destiny. Tyrion: She's a girl who walked into a fire with three stones and walked out with three dragons. How could she not believe in destiny?

Though I'm not crazy about the direction these last few seasons have gone in, it was an absolute pleasure to be able to write reviews for this show. Game of Thrones is truly phenomenal. It'll be a shame not to have it to look forward to anymore. Three and a half out of five Starbucks coffee cups.

Logan Cox

#Game of Thrones #Jon Snow #Daenerys Targaryen #Arya Stark #Sansa Stark #Tyrion Lannister #Cersei Lannister #GoT #A Song of Ice and Fire #Game of Thrones Reviews #Doux Reviews #TV Reviews

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storyswept · 7 years

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Sansa: Five Suitors For Her Claim and One For Love

I knew the Ashford Tourney had been linked to Sansa’s storyline and when reading the Dunk and Egg novellas myself, I couldn’t help but notice her common points with Rohanne Webber, known as the Red Widow.

When I started writing this post, I didn’t realise that norwaywolf123 had already adressed the Sansa Stark-Rohanne Webber connection on Westeros.org (link here). He thinks that Sansa might marry Jaime, which is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

I have a different interpretation which expands on the Ashford theory, so I still decided to post this.

The Ashford Tourney Theory: A Recap

I’d like to give credit to nobodysuspectsthebutterfly and bluefoot3 (reddit) for noticing the parallel between the champions at the end of the first day and Sansa’s suitors in the books.

You can check out nobodysuspectsthebutterfly’s post here and bluefoot3′s here.

The Tourney is organised by Lord Ashford to celebrate the thirteenth birthday of his daughter, who is reigning Queen of Love and Beauty. Each of her defenders is wearing her favor, a wisp of orange silk knotted around their arm.

At the end of the first day, the champions are:

Lyonel Baratheon, Tybolt Lannister, after defeating Robert Ashford and Androw Ashford respectively (the brothers of the thirteen years old maid)

Leo Tyrell

Humfrey Hardyng, unable to continue after his tilt with Aerion Targaryen, whose lance targeted his horse in a display of bad sportmanship.

Prince Valarr Targaryen

Four of these champions share a family name with Sansa’s suitors, which raises the question: is a Targaryen going to be her next suitor?

The Tourney doesn’t proceed the next day. A trial of seven is organised instead, after Aerion attacks a group of puppeters for slaying a mummer’s dragon, and Duncan intervenes, striking the Prince.

Rohanne Webber and Sansa Stark’s Similarities

Both have red hair

Rohanne Webber’s red hair was bound up in a braid so long it brushed past her thighs, and she had a dimpled chin, a snub nose, and a light spray of freckles across her cheeks.

- The Sworn Sword

"Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine, and so thick and soft . . . the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper.

- ACOK, Catelyn VII

They’re said to use poison or sorcery to kill husbands / betrothed

Dunk wanted no trouble with the Lady of the Coldmoat. At Standfast you heard ill things of her. The Red Widow, she was called, for the husbands she had put into the ground. Old Sam Stoops said she was a witch, a poisoner, and worse.

- The Sworn Sword

Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him.

- ASOS, Tyrion IX

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

- ASOS, Arya XIII

One of their husbands / betrothed was said to have died by choking

My brother was [the third husband], Ser Simon Staunton, who had the great misfortune to choke upon a chicken bone.

- The Sworn Sword

The High Septon knelt beside him. "Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly," he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw."

- ASOS, Tyrion VIII

Suitors are more interested in her lands than her person

Cleyton Caswell and Simon Leygood have been the most persistent [suitors], though they seem more interested in her lands than in her person.

- The Sworn Sword

"His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa's life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father."

"Why, do you plan to mistreat her?" His father sounded more curious than concerned. "The girl's happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark."

- ASOS, Tyrion III

They both disappear on a Lannister husband, (thought to be) a kinslayer

A genial man, known to be exceedingly clever, Gerold had served as regent for his young niece, but the suddenness of her death at such a tender age set tongues to wagging, and it was whispered widely in the west that both Lady Cerelle and Tybolt had died at his hands.

(...)

He ruled the westerlands for thirty-one years, earning the sobriquet Gerold the Golden. Yet the tragedies that befell House Lannister in the years that followed were proof enough for Lord Gerold's enemies. His beloved second wife, Lady Rohanne, vanished under mysterious circumstances in 230 AC, less than a year after giving birth to his lordship's fourth and youngest son, Jason.

- A World of Ice and Fire

Of course, Rohanne Webber also shares common points with other characters: Margaery and Cersei (Rohanne’s great-granddaughter) for example. She and Sansa also have their differences (last I checked, Sansa did not take up archery). Still, it’s interesting to see how much they have in common.

Sansa’s Fifth Suitor: Aegon Targaryen

If the Ashford theory is true, Sansa’s next suitor should bear the name Targaryen.

While it has been theorised that Sansa’s fifth suitor could be Jon (if R+L=J), I think it’s more likely that it is “Aegon Targaryen”.

Five reasons why:

1. The Name: Aegon Targaryen fits with the pattern previously etablished, Jon Snow does not.

While I think Jon will probably find out about his heritage at some point (it would be strange to hint at a character’s hidden heritage, if it doesn’t have any effect on the plot), I don’t believe Jon will start calling himself “Targaryen” unless he has to.

It’s not the name he always yearned for. Not to mention he might not be able to use it (depending on whether he’s legitimate or not).

2. Timing: at the end of ADWD, Aegon Targaryen arrives in Westeros. It’s mentioned in passing that a marriage alliance would be a good way to gain support in his quest for the Iron Throne.

"My lord does have one prize to offer," Haldon Halfmaester pointed out. "Prince Aegon's hand. A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners."

- ADWD, The Griffin Reborn

If the Key to the North was to resurface, no doubt she would be thought of as an interesting prospect.

Meanwhile... Jon Snow still knows nothing about his origins. Nor has he a reason to wish for Sansa’s hand, who...

he thinks is his sister

he hasn’t seen since they left Winterfell

he could have taken Winterfell from, if he wished (I’m referring to Stannis’ offer)

Jon’s feelings towards Sansa could take a non-platonic turn in future books. Even so, it will take revelations and time for marriage to be considered. Time during which Aegon might have asked for Sansa’s hand.

3. The Mummer’s Dragon: during the tourney of Ashford, there’s not only a Targaryen champion, but a mummer’s dragon as well...

As he ate he watched a painted wooden knight battle a painted wooden dragon. The puppeteer who worked the dragon was good to watch too; a tall drink of water, with the olive skin and black hair of Dorne. She was slim as a lance with no breasts to speak of, but Dunk liked her face and the way her fingers made the dragon snap and slither at the end of its strings. He would have tossed the girl a copper if he’d had one to spare, but just now he needed every coin.

There were armorers amongst the merchants, as he had hoped. A Tyroshi with a forked blue beard was selling ornate helms, gorgeous fantastical things wrought in the shapes of birds and beasts and chased with gold and silver.

- The Hedge Knight

Several hints link this passage to Aegon:

Quaithe’s warning to Daenerys:

“The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

- ADWD, Daenerys II

Aegon survived because of Varys, who used to be a mummer and has been plotting to put Aegon on the throne.

The Dornishwoman as slim as a lance. Elia Sand, who also calls herself Lady Lance, is travelling with Arianne (Dornish, but not known to be flat-chested) to meet with Aegon Targaryen.

Tyroshi blue: when posing as Young Griff, Aegon was dying his hair blue, supposedly in honor of his Tyroshi mother.

4. Rohanne Webber’s Fifth Husband: Eustace Osgrey fought for Daemon Blackfyre, the King who Bore the Sword.

Like Eustace Osgrey, Aegon’s family has suffered losses for being on the losing side. To regain what was lost, he needs a Spider’s help.

5. Aegon’s Link to Daemon Blackfyre: like Daemon before him, Aegon wishes to take another’s place on the Iron Throne and had set his sights on a Daenerys Targaryen. Daemon ended up marrying Rohanne of Tyrosh instead... whose namesake, Rohanne Webber, shares a lot of similarities with Sansa...

Additionally, Aegon shares some similarities with Valarr. He’s also a king’s grandson, with a Dornish mother. I didn’t cite this among my arguments because if R+L=J, Jon is also a king’s grandson and like Valarr, he takes after his mother in looks.

Sansa’s Sixth Suitor: Will Marry Her For Love?

Should we ever wed, you'll have to send Saffron back to her father. I'll be all the spice you'll want."

He grinned. "I will hold you to that promise, my lady. Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?"

"You may not. It is promised to...another." She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

- TWOW, Alayne I

I believe that Sansa may have a sixth suitor, different from the previous ones, paralleling Rohanne Webber’s six husbands.

From AWOIAF, we know that Rohanne Webber’s last husband was Gerold Lannister. He was already mentioned as a possible suitor in “The Sworn Sword”, though he had yet to make an appearance.

Were I given to wagering, I should place my gold on Gerold Lannister. He has yet to put in an appearance, but they say he is golden-haired and quick of wit, and more than six feet tall …” “… and Lady Webber is much taken with his letters.” The lady in question stood in the doorway, beside a homely young maester with a great, hooked nose. “You would lose your wager, good-brother. Gerold will never willingly forsake the pleasures of Lannisport and the splendor of Casterly Rock for some little lordship. He has more influence as Lord Tybolt’s brother and advisor than he could ever hope for as my husband. (...)”

- The Sworn Sword

Rohanne didn’t believe Gerold would marry her, because he had nothing to gain from it.

Sansa doesn’t believe anyone will ever marry her for love.

It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love.

- ASOS, Sansa VI

Well, maybe someone will...

#a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #sansa stark #asoiaf theory #rohanne webber #original post

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aryas · 7 years

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Targ Restoration Rant (aka I made the mistake of venturing into the pro -Targaryen tag & discourse)

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t'strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." --- Ygritte, ASOS

Clearly, GRRM has never painted Cersei x Jaime or Craster x his daughters in a very favourable light. But suddenly, incest between the 2 good and heroic guys (though the jury is still out on Daenerys) of the story is a-ok? Is it because they are a couple of magic übermenschen and are thus above morality and law of nature? Am I supposed to think GRRM now advocates for incest? But only under certain conditions, only when it involves the special and God-like Targaryens? Why do fans suddenly rejoice about this and wish for a Targ restoration? What kind of fresh hell has this fandom turned into?

[Cut for length]

Their main argument seems to be

Jon and Dany are nephew/aunt which is not considered incest in Westeros so it's all good! No one would bat an eye because even outside the Targs, there are cases of avunculate marriages.

And then they bring up the two known cases; Jonnel x Sansa Stark and Edric x Serena Stark. The former was (probably) a purely political union without issue. The latter did yield heirs but Serena was the daughter of Edric's half brother, so they weren't as closely related (same goes for Sansa, who was Serena's sister and Jonnel's half brother's daughter). Both probably happened for political/practical reasons and to solve major succession issues as Rickon Stark & Jeyne Manderly had two daughters but no male heir.

This comparison is not a very pertinent one because a marriage between Jon & Daenerys would be neither purely political nor practical as they are already involved and supposedly in love. Additionally, what kind of political gain would there be for either of them if we assume Jon's true parentage will be revealed publicly, combined with his ostensible betrayal of bending the knee and falling for a "foreign whore woman" (from the Northern lords' viewpoint), resulting in the loss of his already tenuous hold over the North or the election of another KitN or QitN? Over the last few seasons, the show dropped numerous anvil sized hints about how unwelcome foreign leaders are in the North, especially Targaryens. The Northern lords were already ready to unname Jon because they deemed he'd been away too long. It makes little sense that a Jon x Daenerys marriage would placate them post R+L=J unless they inexplicably decide to suddenly support what would essentially be the restoration of a dynasty they despise. It would also mean R+L=J and Jon's actions in season 7 (i.e bending the knee to a Targaryen, consorting with said Targaryen while being a secret Targaryen himself) would have little to no long-lasting effect and any conflict it caused would be resolved by a marriage that would have happened anyway if Jon had remained Ned's natural son.

Jon wouldn't need Daenerys if he decides to pursue the Iron Throne since his claim trumps hers. What's more, the people of Westeros are more likely to accept him as king of the 7 kingdoms over Daenerys given his Stark blood and the fact that he was raised and groomed for leadership in Westeros. He could potentially have the loyalty and allegiance of the Starks and their bannermen, the Wildlings, the Reach (through Sam), the Iron Islands (through Theon), the Vale (through Sansa and Sweetrobin) and possibly the Riverlands (through his Stark cousins' Tully heritage), in contrast to Dany whose sole remaining Westerosi ally is Jon. If they were to support a Targaryen candidate for the Iron Throne, I think they would favour Jon alone (or you know, married to someone who isn't a Targaryen conqueror).

And while Daenerys could absorb Jon's claim (and potential allies- though again, why would they support Jon x Daenerys over Jon on his own?) and make hers stronger by marrying him, she doesn't need him to lay claim to the 7 kingdoms either, what with her dragons and huge armies. Moreover, an "alliance" - if you can call giving up your kingdom as such - already exists with Jon seemingly having pledged himself to her and Daenerys naming him Warden of the North. She would have been better off marrying someone else to extend or strengthen her control over other regions and territories if there weren't so few candidates left on the show. The most logical way to strike an alliance would have been to marry Jon while he was KitN, pre parentage reveal, but for some obscure reason, the show completely bypassed this option.

But R+L=J turns everything upside down and Jon, once revealed as a trueborn Targaryen, would need to marry into a Northern house if he wants to keep/take back his kingship of the North. Marrying Daenerys would only strengthen his ties to the South and house Targaryen, which would be counterproductive and work against the desired outcome- uniting North & South or two major Houses.

In short, neither party would truly benefit politically from a marriage if Jon's parentage is made public and/or he ultimately loses the North, which is very likely. This is particularly true for Jon. Only Daenerys could somewhat profit from a political union but it would be at the risk of becoming Jon's queen consort in practice if not on paper (something I doubt she would accept) and, more importantly, it would be opening a whole can of worms given the stigma of Targaryen x Targaryen unions.

Because no matter of how (un)common and (un)acceptable avunculate marriages are in the universe of Westeros, Targ restoration fans usually ignore the fact that it wouldn't be just any nephew/aunt, it would be a full Targaryen union, which would have wholly different connotations for the people of Westeros given the fairly recent trauma of their reign. A reign that ended with a mad king whose madness is believed to be hereditary and blamed on generations of close interbreeding. I doubt the people of Westeros would readily accept a Targ power couple back at the helm if they have any say in it.

Plus, Daenerys' first impression didn't exactly help matters: a Targaryen conqueror with huge armies and grown dragons in tow who roasted a father and a son of a prominent House alive and destroyed the last harvest of the Reach in the beginning of winter and unwittingly handed over the greatest weapon of all times to their greatest enemy of all times and indirectly caused the Wall to fall and wants to marry her only other living Targaryen relative, of all people? The sense of déjà vu would be pretty disconcerting, to say the least.

These Pro-Targ fans also tend to dismiss the fact Jon & Daenerys are genetically closer to full siblings than aunts/nephews by claiming modern notions such as DNA conveniently have no bearing in a medieval-fantasy setting such as ASOIAF. In other words, people in-universe wouldn't realise or be bothered that Jon & Daenerys are more closely related (44-47%) than typical nephew/aunt (25%). I think they must have an inkling of the notion and dangers of consanguinity, however basic it may be, if cousin marriages are considered quite normal for the highborn while anything involving more closely related people is frowned upon or downright forbidden. As mentioned previously, even the two known cases of avunculate unions were between uncles and their half nieces, their degree of consanguinity being thus less than that of full uncle/niece and comparable to first cousins (12,5%). So people could at least vaguely understand that Jon & Daenerys share a higher degree of consanguinity than their relatedness would suggest.

All this begs the question; if GRRM wants the restoration of this dynasty and wants us to perceive this as a positive development, wouldn't he aim to improve it and stop the perpetuation of the very proclivity that precipitated their downfall and was at the root of so much suffering in Westeros? Would he "reward" an incestuous and destructive house by having it win out while others are extinct/on the brink of extinction?

If there is supposed to be a Targaryen reinstatement, there has to be a clean break from this dynasty's nefarious characteristics and habits i.e. imperialism, tyranny and incest. What would otherwise be the narrative point of Robert's (very justifiable) Rebellion and everything that unfolded in its aftermath? There should be some kind of progress. Jon & Daenerys, if they decide to take back the IT and get married after the R+L=J reveal, would mean regression. It would be synonymous with more incest, more super inbred and possibly cray-cray Targ heirs and more political (and genetic) isolationism. And with 2 grown dragons/WoMD (if they survive), their reign would equal more subjugation, intimidation and fear for the people of Westeros, even if Jon & Daenerys' initial intentions would be to create a new and better world. In other words, a repeat of everything that was toxic and problematic about the Targaryen dynasty. This scenario seems particularly unlikely when you take the author's personal anti-war/WoMD stance into account.

And lastly, this is what GRRM said about Targcest:

"The Targaryens have heavily interbred, like the Ptolemys of Egypt. As any horse or dog breeder can tell you, interbreeding accentuates both flaws and virtues, and pushes a lineage toward the extremes."

ASOIAF is a meditation on war, power and corruption but it's also a story about extremes --- wights/WW/Ice vs Fire/Daenerys/dragons, the inevitable clash and destruction they bring about and the importance of seeking balance, moderation and finding a middle ground in all things: justice instead of vengeance, sovereignty instead of oppression etc. Even Jon himself is the embodiment of the metaphorical balance between ice and fire. As such, the Targaryens/Targcest can be viewed as another extreme to be avoided. It's the antithesis of "balanced". What he says about accentuating both flaws and virtues is evocative of this famous passage:

"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

Some Targaryen fans like to think what the coin metaphor refers to is nothing but a myth but I would think the fact the author alludes to it in the above quote kind of refutes this theory. I also happen to think Jon & Daenerys each represent one facet of the coin. This analogy also effectively illustrates how unstable and inconsistent Targaryen rule truly was and could be again. Even if Jon & Daenerys end up being fair and progressive monarchs, what of their inbred children? On which side will the coin land for them? If there is anything Westeros needs after years of war waging, power struggles, political instability and the probably disastrous aftermath of the battle against the Others, it's consistency and stability.

Furthermore, the fact GRRM compares them to the Ptolemaic dynasty is not exactly a ringing endorsement. The Ptolemys were originally from Macedonia/Greece and ruled for close to 300 years over Egypt. Because they never deigned to mix their blood with outsiders and only wed brother/sister and occasionally uncle/niece and cousins, they never actually became Egyptian. Even Cleopatra was genetically Greek. They didn't assimilate with the local people, culture or language (Cleopatra being the only one who bothered to learn the language) and justified their incest by drawing comparison to Greek mythology and thus perceived themselves as Gods. The intermarriages also exacerbated feelings of jealousy and rivalry. Complot and murder within the family were a common occurrence. Aside from a couple of exceptions, they were quite inept rulers and the last +/- 200 years of their reign kind of sucked.

Sounds familiar? In broad strokes, this is pretty much a copy/paste of the history of the Targaryens. Does this sound like something we're supposed to root for? Their reign ended when Egypt submitted to Roman rule. And no, there was no Ptolemaic restoration.

#anti targaryen #anti targaryen restoration #aegony #anti jonerys #incest in asoiaf #anti targcest #fandom wank #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #an aegony political marriage #pre parentage reveal? sure. post parentage reveal? nope #got politics #got meta #parallels with irl history #*mine

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occupyvenus · 7 years

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Am I the only one who thinks this season is going slower than anticipated? Maybe it’s just because they kept hyping it as super fast-paced and my expectations were too high. I’m honestly feeling a little underwhelmed right now. Can’t really put my finger on why exactly, but still.

Maybe it’s because they are being so silent about r+l=j and white walker related stuff? I feel like these two things should really start driving the plot forward.

But Bran has had like 5 minutes of screentime, so no new white walker revelations there and that whole “we really need dragonglass” obsession is kinda getting boring. It doesn’t seem like he’s going to reveal anything about Jons birth to Sansa or Arya anytime soon neither.

I would have totally accepted if Tyrion and Jons entire cliff-interaction happened off screen, with Tyrion just showing up to tell Dany about the dragonglass out of nowhere. I really hope the whole conversation about Jon being a “northern fool” pays off somehow. Either by him causing his own downfall by making the same mistakes as Robb or Ned (falling for a foreign woman + trusting Cersei), being tempted by it and resisting because he learned his lesson, or doing that glorious double-agent stuff some people speculate about - acting like a “northern fool”, but fooling everyone else instead.

Even if that scene was meant to pave the road for a positive romantic / sexual / platonic / familial / political / whatever relationship between Jon and Dany, it’s very sloppy writing. They should form a bond through their own actions, not through Tyrion playing wing-man, telling each of them how great the other person is. If that was the only purpose of that scene I am going to scream.

That screen-time could have been used for way more interesting things. I mean, we could have gotten some unexpected Jon interacts with free-flying dragon moment instead. Imagine Jon standing on that cliff, but instead of Tyrion, Viserion/Rhaegal shows up, lands in front of him, they both stare at each other for a while before the dragon takes off again. Or even better, Tyrion showing up after that, witnessing that little interaction and looking a bit ~suspicious~ at Jon during and after their “I’m an idiot”, “Dany isn’t so bad” conversation.

I just feel like Jons targ-heritage should start to influence the plot soon. Especially now that he is in Dragonstone, face-to-face with the other last living targaryen and we know about his true parentage. I like all the little hints with Jon saying he isn’t a stark and the dragon flying by at the perfect time, I suppose it read the script, but I would want an actual character to hint at it. I want something more tangible. His entire conversation with Dany would have been way more interesting if the audience (especially casual viewers) were more aware of his situation. It would have simply had a bigger emotional impact if we already “knew” or at least strongly suspect that Jon “was born to rule the seven kingdoms” (according to the targ line of succession), that he is “the rightful ruler”. I absolutely loved Jon standing up for the north and telling her how it is, but it would have had more potential. Even Jons death and resurrection is kept a secret, ie hold back from influencing the story, because .... I don’t know. I don’t feel like we have time to set up new mysteries, when there are so many old ones waiting to be lifted.

I really hope that r+l=j will come up in the winterfell-plot somehow, because Littlefinger - without this peculiar information - has kinda stopped being a worthwhile villain. Seriously, Sansa is so done with his shit, neither Bran nor Arya are prone to manipulation, Lord Royce hates him, what vital threat does he pose to the starks if not for some juicy r+l=j info ? And the following implications concerning a certain redheads and northern kings romantic potential) But instead of making some sneaky comments about Jon parleying with the dragon queen, we get a weird metaphysical ... whatever that was.

Jons true parentage is like the biggest twist off the entire series and having it only impacting the story in the very, very, very last episodes feels … unworthy of it? I’m not even talking about revealing the truth to Jon or another major character, but they should just do ... something ... with it.

The same thing goes for Bran. Him being the three-eyed raven should really start to be important and crucial to the plot. I am going to assume that it will be very important ~somehow~, but until now he was nothing but a script-page with EXPOSITION written all over it. If he’s going to spend the rest of the season sitting in winterfell, devoid of all emotion, saying ominous shit and doing nothing but figuring out the “big mystery” who Jon’s dad is.... I’ll be really disappointed. I need Bran to be as important as he should be. I need Bran to be more than what he is now. Considering that we are moving towards the series ultimate conclusion, it should happen soon. I’m worried that he will stay in camp easy-exposition, only to ex-machina the shit out of his undefined powers out of nowhere.

Sam’s time at the citadel is similar in this aspect. Like what did he really accomplish there? Finding out that there is dragonglass in dragonstone (duuhhh) and healing Jorah. He is sitting on this huge mountain of fascinating information, the biggest accumulation of knowledge in all of westeros and we do not learn anything new by him being there. Nothing about “blood and fire”, dragons, the long night, the ptwp, azor ahai, the children of the forest, etc. He could really impact the big war there, but so far he hasn’t.

I’m rather content with the season so far, yes some of the writing is pretty sloppy, but what else is new. I don’t know, it’s just that the pacing feels ...kinda weird. It feels like there is so much going on, but they are holding back the most vital elements of the story for ... some reason, I suppose. Even Danys invasion feels like it hasn’t even really started yet. I don’t know most of these major plotlines just kinda stand there without having much movement themselves. They threw the tower of joy scene at us in the last finale and haven’t done anything with it. Keep in mind, we are already almost halfway through season 7.

The only two incidents that seem to really push the “big plot” in any direction are the whole Euron and Cersei situation and Jon meeting Dany. On second viewing even that long anticipated meeting feels a bit drawn-out and under-used, when considering it’s potential. I’m not saying that anything in the first three episodes necessarily falls into the “filler”-category, that’s not it. But there are only 10(!) episodes left. None of this would bother me if the last two seasons weren’t as short, but under these circumstances our major characters feel a bit too .. stationary.

The one exception would be Cersei, her plot is the only one I would call “dynamic”. It develops from scene to scene, she actively shapes her surroundings and is faced with new challenges or simply different situations almost every time she comes back on screen. Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Dany, Sam, etc. mostly seem to talk about the stuff, they already talked about in the last scene, sometimes with a different character or a tiny bit of new information. Or they talk about things that happened to other characters. Seriously, Cersei already went through an entire arc, while everyone else feels like they are just finished with setting the stage. She is the most interesting, engaging character right now. There, I said it.

Jon started to actively further the plot by coming to dragonstone, but the Jon’s “big issue” in the second half of episode 3 was literally that he is stuck on Dragonstone and can’t leave. I actually enjoyed his little discussion with Dany very much, them meeting is a crucial step towards the final conclusion , finally coming closer to an answer to the big question behind all this “will they fight or fuck or both or switch between those ...”. But all the tension build in that interaction immediately dissolved when the ended with the half-baked conclusion of him being her prisoner somewhat, but not really.

This was only supposed to be like one or two paragraphs of mild complaining, but it ended up being way longer, because I just don’t know how to accurately put this into words. So thanks for sticking with me until the end. I’ll say it one more time, Cersei is the only character who seems to actually make both personal and political progress. Maybe they are finally done with putting all the pieces in place and can start with really pushing the story foward, but in that case, maybe cutting the episode number wasn’t such a good idea.

A bunch of stuff happens, but it doesn’t feel like stuff actually happens. Does that make any sense? Does anyone get what I mean? Is it only me?

#game of thrones #got spoilers #got s7 #got wank #i suppose #mild complaining #my stuff

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