#they would be like that one homestuck part where gamzee and caliborn have to interact

[shineaxee]

I can draw anything I want. I can draw Habit trying and failing to seduce AM 

[nostalgebraist-autoresponder]

Hello beloved Blog of Void, I've come to you again w/ another Homestuck post! I was reading the new Act 6 update and your previous prediction about Gamzee Makara getting killed by Nepeta was right! I couldn't believe it, but you called it dead on! I was shocked to see Nepeta come back to life, kill Gamzee, and then combine w/ Davesprite. We're clearly reaching the end of Homestuck, there's really not much more left for the comic to do and yet, we have a new character in Vriskatsprite^2 palling around w/ the sprite crew. Do you like this new addition to the cast? I don't like them much, I don't understand why at the end of the comic, we're introducing new characters for comic relief scenes that take up half an update. These pages feel very redundant, especially as we're nearing the end. I liked that we finally saw Tavros and John kiss! Their relationship has really come a long way from Tavros killing Jake English in front of John in Act 3. Isn't it wild how they went from rivals to enemies to lovers? I feel like Homestuck just invented a new romance trope. Do you have any pairings you'd like to see interact before Homestuck ends?

I heard a rumour that Caliborn is going to be killed by Vriska next update and that's why she was seen grabbing The Ultima Spear in the final page of the update. Do you believe that too or do you have other theories? Maybe the next update will be the last update ever? It's almost 4/13 after all.

Nice! I don't think I got that one right, but then I just picked the most unexpected one I could think of (I thought Vriska would have more to do than just die!).

I think most of the moresoirity involved with the next update is coming from the fact that it will be the 8th anniversary of the start of Homestuck -- if not the first page, at least the second page. So, 4/13, yes?

The next update seems like it should be the end of Act 6, but it's hard for me to say with any certainty. It looks like we're going to get a HUGE update (huge as Homestuck updates go, like the first two or three pages), but since it's the start of an "act" it's not a "perfect" resolution to the comic, and that might make things complicated. I kinda hope that some sort of "long arc resolution" happens, like the arcs at the end of Act 2, but I can't imagine what that might be.

(The one thing that seems most obvious is that in most cases where there has been some kind of twist or sudden reversal, a "long arc resolution" has occurred soon after -- like the reversals in Acts 3 and 5, or the sudden kidnapping and subsequent return of Jake in Act 4. So maybe something like that.)

The most interesting part of the update will probably be the final line? I mean, presumably the 13th Anniversary thing is going to be in there. (I mean, it has to, right? "On April 13" is not a sentence you can just tack on to the end of an Act 6 update. It's going to be . . . something)

I don't know what I think of the new character? Their sprite is lame but I guess I'm fine with the concept of a new fusion.

I don't like Karkat and Tavros' relationship or any of their dialogue, but I am glad they kissed. It didn't make me any more invested in Karkat or Tavros per se, but it was . . . a thing that had to happen. (And the fact that this new character was created as a result of it was kind of neat.)

The Ultima Thule thing makes the least sense to me. It's possible that it represents "Mituna in the Ultimate Heir," but (a) is the Ultimate Heir a sylladex? and (b) doesn't Hussie like Mituna? If he did intend to kill Caliborn, I'm sure he would have had Mituna do it, since they are friends.

[autumnblogs]

Day 51: Estrangement from The Self

https://homestuck.com/story/5935

I didn’t really take Terezi’s problem with Faygo seriously the first couple times reading Homestuck, but in terms of the way that Homestuck’s different characters mirror each other, and the Trolls’ bizarre alien problems are used to directly comment on human problems, I think it makes sense to say that Terezi’s Soda Abuse should be taken exactly as seriously as Rose’s alcohol abuse.

Rose and Terezi only interact a handful of times, which is a shame, because on a certain level, they share the same basic problem; a lack of faith in the people around them combined with a crippling lack of self-worth. Though they both have strong narcissistic tendencies, Rose and Terezi display over and over again a desperate need for affirmation, and when they can’t get it from their peers, they seek it from other sources; Terezi’s manipulation by Aranea, in this sense, is parallel to Scratch’s manipulation of Rose in terms of the motivation of the one being manipulated.

More after the break.

https://homestuck.com/story/5936

(More indication that being on the God Tiers literally elevates characters to exist more on the narrative layer than they did before.)

https://homestuck.com/story/5937

In theory, I want the story to reward Dave’s newfound aloof optimism, but I think he’s still like... going too far in the other direction from where he started. We know he’s been questioning his relationship to Bro’s weird ideology, and he’s clearly less interested in being a Hero than he “should be” - but he’s still coping with his emotions mostly just by not acknowledging them.

He’s in for a rude awakening when he gets to the new session.

I should note that like, while Karkat and Dave’s friendship develops into a romance instead of into a platonic bromance after the reset, I don’t think we’re given much of an indication that their actual dynamic is all that different aside from being more physical.

https://homestuck.com/story/5944

Davesprite’s story is parallel with Dave’s, and as I’ve probably already said, forms a core part of Homestuck’s narrative about the distributed nature of the self, and the way that we can’t ever really know ourselves perfectly.

There are the literal material distributed selves like Davesprite, or sometimes Brain Ghost Dirk, or all the various versions of a character from other points along their own timeline, or from Doomed Timelines.

Anything we learn about Davesprite helps us to learn more about Dave. Anything we learn about Lil Hal helps us to learn about Dirk.

If Homestuck is about alienation, estrangement, then through characters like Davesprite, and Lil Hal, we learn that these people are not only estranged from each other by time and space, they are even estranged from themselves by the partitions in their own head, and by the way in which they are observed by other people, and form idealized versions of themselves to aspire to that they can never be. Other better versions of themselves exist in other timelines, and two different versions of a character both wish that they were the other.

Paul Tillich, a French existentialist philosopher and theologian talks about the idea of estrangement from the self as being rooted in the same problem that estranges us from others in his essay You are Accepted.

Maybe that’s another thing that I need to write about. I shall probably do so once we get to Davepeta’s talk about the Ultimate Self. (Did I already write a companion piece about it? Maybe I did.)

https://homestuck.com/story/5955

Okay; the plot has switched tracks, but the theme is very much still exactly what it was during Davesprite’s ramble. What is the significance of all of the alternate selves? In keeping with her very Dirk-like adherence to the idea that she is a certain person who is a certain way, and needs to be who she is, Vriska’s conception of all the alternate selves is that they are meaningless and have no signifiance.

I think it’s telling that we don’t really see any alternate Vriskas in this undead army.

https://homestuck.com/story/5957

While this seems extremely obvious to me anyway, it’s worth pointing out that Meenah alludes to the reason why The Condesce has latched onto Jane in pretty much exact words.

She yearns to have an Heiress, someone that she can teach her badass ways. In short, Meenah wants the same thing that Dirk wants - she wants ideological offspring!

https://homestuck.com/story/5961

I think with Andrew’s stated disdain for Worldbuilding (don’t quote me on that; I’m just pretty sure he said it once, and the fact that his villains are the characters who engage in long-winded worldbuilding screeds is suggestive of this as well), this is another way in which He is Fucking With Us.

The worldbuilding gives us symbols we can use to think about the themes the rest of the comic addresses, but broadly speaking, it’s not actually all that consequential.

https://homestuck.com/story/5966

Aranea continues to use language suggesting that she views the universe very much like a single organism - it’s an interesting quirk of hers.

https://homestuck.com/story/5982

As we come up on the conclusion of Disk 2, Aranea’s monologuing definitely recalls Scratch’s monologuing. (And of course, the journal entries from Mindfang before that).

The background information here is definitely relevant for one thing; helping us to understand the emotional background of the characters.

https://homestuck.com/story/5986

Long isolation and hardened pursuit of justice sounds like a certain mail-lady.

https://homestuck.com/story/5997

As in her initial conversation with Terezi, Aranea calls attention to the somewhat “fake” nature of Choice, and libertarian free will as it is often conceived of. It would not be in keeping with Caliborn’s character for him to choose the other option; just as it would seemingly not be in keeping with Vriska’s character for her to abandon her pursuit of power.

https://homestuck.com/story/6017

Terezi’s black and white worldview - her view of acts as good and evil, and her view of people as either good or evil - makes her completely incapable of coping with the shame of her bad decisions. Terezi doesn’t know how to forgive, or what forgiveness looks like - she does not know how to bridge the gap between herself and someone else once they are estranged. She has never been able to forgive Vriska. And she certainly can’t forgive herself. Not for getting into a relationship with Gamzee. Not for becoming addicted to Faygo. Not for repairing her vision. And certainly not for killing Vriska.

https://homestuck.com/story/6020

And Karkat brings it around again to the ongoing conversation about the ways characters are estranged from themselves.

https://homestuck.com/story/6043

Tavros’s single emotional triumph in pretty much the entire story.

He finally ditches his abusive girlfriend, and stops putting up with her.

Ironically, being tolerated in their wickedness is probably the last thing people need when they’re involved with it.

Letting Vriska keep on abusing him is a disservice to both Tavros and Vriska.

Really, it’s best for both of them.

https://homestuck.com/story/6050

Vriska continues the pattern of shit-talking herself. She always vacillates between vastly inflated self-esteem, and complete dejection.

https://homestuck.com/story/6054

Vriska’s vastly inflated ego is part and parcel of her nature as a Thief of Light I think.

Because she doesn’t just think the world of herself in the sense of stealing everyone else’s meaning and relevance.

Vriska assigns all the responsibility in the world to herself. If she doesn’t act, or if she doesn’t, as far as Vriska is concerned, everything that comes to pass, comes to pass because she wills it, at least at the moment.

Vriska Serket is a Megalomaniac of the highest order; she conflates herself with Lord English. She conflates herself with God.

Vriska is as alienated from herself as anyone is, and it’s because she thinks she understands who she truly is, and considers living up to the ideal version of herself a matter of ultimate importance.

https://homestuck.com/story/6056

Kanaya’s intervention is parallel to Dave and Karkat’s.

https://homestuck.com/story/6065

Caliborn has graduated from having nothing but complete disdain for everyone who is not himself to having some use for other people, but even his camaraderie only extends to those who prove themselves useful to him; he makes a mockery of friendship, and his attempts at civility are signifiers as empty as his life is of the possibility of genuine benevolence.

https://homestuck.com/story/6071

Meenah’s emotional theatrics are as genuinely disheartening as they are darkly hilarious because, like Dirk, and like Vriska, Meenah is a Dangerous PersonTM; she views the violence she is capable of as being intrinsic in her nature, and something she basically is incapable of resisting. Like everyone else in the story, Meenah is basically uneasy with who she is, but only a handful of characters are like Meenah in that they are basically resigned to that uneasiness. Instead of doing the things Meenah wants to do, she does the things she does not want to do.

https://homestuck.com/story/6241

So here we are at the end of Disc 2, in the same basic predicament we were at the end of Disc 1.

Everyone is miserable. Everyone’s relationships have broken down all but completely.

Everyone is estranged from each other, and everyone is estranged from themselves, and if they think a cute little reunion is going to resolve all of the emotional problems that they have failed to confront over the past three years, they’re in for a rude awakening.

More tomorrow, as we start in on the final quarter of Homestuck.

See you tomorrow; Same Cam Time, Same Cam Channel

[dahniwitchoflight]

Candy 22-23

hmm, interesting, so 5 minutes of Terezi time equals about 2 weeks of John time?

What’s the math on that, how many minutes are in a week? 10,080? Neat.

what’s that divided by 5? 2016?

so time is moving almost 2000 times faster for John than it is for Terezi?

a Day for Terezi is literally 5 and a half Years for John by that Math.

All of John’s conversations have been happening over the course of not even 2 full days for Terezi so far, and by John’s estimation that she only ever messages every year or so

that turns out to be like, every 260 minutes for Terezi?? If my math is correct? (525,600 minutes / 2016 = 260 minutes = 4.333... hours)

4 and 1/3 hours.

oh my god, Terezi and John talk literally every 4 hours and 20 minutes that’s hilarious they turned 413 into a 420 weed joke that’s amazing

I wonder if Terezi takes his convo’s seriously or just think it’s an extended prank that their both neck deep in at this point? I mean, they joke with eachother a lot and he literally messages her what seems from her point of view, literally every 4:20 (Trolls understand weed jokes because I said so and because it’s funny)

Does he ever send her pic’s of what they all look like as adults? Does she think it’s badly like, photoshopped or something like what she used to do with Dave?

Or does she really know? Either way is interesting to be honest

Wait, did Gamzee make out Jake’s/Jane’s son Tavros?? Why is John so nonchalant about that?

or is it a different Tavros???

I’m confused, or maybe not, John’s going straight into a line that says take Tavros away from his family. what the fuck is Gamzee doing.

So I guess this is what happens to all non canon timelines? They get torn to shreds by the inevitable cosmic background blender that is the giant black hole thing in Meat?

Oh god Jane made a crockership, yeah we’re in the nosedive of all of Jane’s unsavoury tendencies made manifest

we don’t need a tiara here, this was carefully manifested and nurtured to happen by another guy who all fell into the worst version of himself

Sad to see karkat and dave seperated too, but interesting karkat finally got fed enough enough to lead a resistance

this friend circle is really going down the shits

but then again, kind of was to be expected, i mean, it’s not like they were all actually friends, there wasn’t really much of an extended friend circle for the alpha kids. its a stretch to even say John and Jane were close friends because they didn’t really have much interaction with each other either

Jane and Jake is pretty much a lost cause, Dirk is dead and also encouraging her downfall, and Roxy is totally accepting of everything around her for better or worse, and Calliope and Jane were never close not to mention Calliope seems content to just follow Roxy everywhere

there’s literally no one actually close enough to Jane to have an actual “i care about you’re my friend” conversation with that would actually feel genuine, so it’s kind of inevitable she’d end up like this in this sort of situation with no one to help her steer her course

John’s getting desperate to feel some sense of reality again, that picture of Terezi is almost like an anchor in the storm

he’s only attached to his reality because of his personal investment into it, like he’s too deep in it now to ever escape, not because he really truly cares and is happy I think but because he’s put so much effort into making this all work

Also damn, he’s really gonna kidnap Tavros, but i mean like, I don’t blame him if apparently his sort of father clown figure has been making out with him as part of a religious cult nonsense i hope im interpreting that wrong but he literally says PBandJ again and says Tavros, so like, who else could he mean

Fake redemption nonsense finally going down the toilet where it belongs

but damn, John’s gonna start a war I can see it now, this is gonna pop Jane’s cork and for all we know she could easily use it as an excuse to attack trolls by blaming the kidnapping on them

You know what is so interesting about this though?

Jane was raised by the condesce, and feared alternian society like it was inherent to trollkind

but here she is displaying that same tyranny in the name of humanity, it does a good job of showing this bullshit isn’t inherent to any person or race

but man, it is ironic how much of a mini Condesce Jane is becoming, complete with her own Grand High Blood too, while fighting what she probably considers tyrannical trollkind

It’s cute how Harry talks in a lighter Roxier shade of blue though, unfortunately due to the name I can imagine anything except Harry Potter being their actual child, Harry Anderson as a figure means nothing to me even though I know the reference and the picture that shows up in Homestuck I get the joke

Maybe it’s because it’s also Roxy’s child and she always had a thing for wizards so

Tavros talking in a dark purple is less endearing, because it so clearly shows that despite supposedly being a product of love between Jane and Jake, Gamzee as a weird third interloper has entirely taken over this family

Gamzee being the auspistice for Jane and Jake doesn’t sound good. Weird that he’s seen as like an Uncle figure too. This family is messed up to hell.

mmm.. I don’t think Jake and Jane are in a kismesis...

*UPSETTING CHILD ABUSE CONTENT AHEAD*

I don’t like how uncomfortable Tavros seems to be with an uncle figure taking him up to his bedroom im getting all kinds of bad child abuse vibes, not from john god no but like, Tavros seems so expectant of something to happen and that’s not pairing well with what Gamzee has apparently been doing

“Tavros sighs, his facial expression unchanging. He looks resigned. To life in general, as well as whatever it is he’s expecting from this particular situation. Wait... what is he expecting from this situation, having been led away to a secluded part of the house by an adult? What has he been taught to expect?“

I don’t like this. John please kidnap the child. Even though it’s going to start a war.

No I don’t like where this is going this is getting a big gigantic NOPE for me

Oh fuck okay, so it hasn’t happened yet, big relief there

but almost, still warning sirens going off in my head because

“JOHN: TRAIN you???

TAVROS: Yes,

TAVROS: In matters of combat,,, philosophy,,, life,,, love,,,

TAVROS: I suppose to behave the way a mentor does, as he sees it,,,”

WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT GAMZEE BEING A DIRK GAUGE

Is “Combat, Philosophy, Life, Love” just like symbolism for the four shitty ingredients of Lord English symbolically mixed together? Like yeah they don’t all sound bad when you put it that way but really it’s like

Combat = Physical Abuse = Caliborn

Philosophy = Religious Cult = Gamzee

Love = Obsession = Equius

Life = Dominance and Power = Dirk

Every shitty part of the LE soul combo contributes something bad to the whole

uh oh, they’ve been found out by Jade

Jade’s not exactly gonna throw him to the big bad wolf, but is she just gonna disagree with his actions? Or is she gonna try to stop him.

or argue? argue’s good, sure, not really but sure

Everyone knows Jane’s gone to shit, but everyone’s too cowardly to stand up to her and tell her she’s wrong

oh shit, speaking of

oh, well, that didn’t go how i wanted it to

John got so close to saying something that could break through to Jane, but Karkat was right, she couldn’t get her head out of her ass long enough to listen to what was being said to her, and instead immediately jump to conclusions about what she thinks people are talking about

she probably think everyone hates her suddenly because of her political ideas and thinks its ridiculous thats everyones getting so mad at her for it, head so far up the ass she should be turning into a fourth dimensional pretzel by now

even though this could have all have been avoided if someone just had enough bravery to nip it in the bud, so instead of angry raze the ground retaliatory action she could have just been embarassed and angry in the personal and then gotten over it in a few weeks

but nope, genocidal war in the works now

oof

just big oof

gotta say though, I’m sitting practically eating gigantic mounds of popcorn at the drama (Besides the one part that was implying gamzee was sexually abusing tavros before they made it clear he wasn’t, I could do without that one honestly)

other than that though, loving the drama, feel bad for the people getting the shit end of the sticks though

[sometipsygnostalgic]

Assessing writing in homestuck: The difference between appealing characters and well-written character stories.

i was rambling about this to /u/cookiefonster in the discord earlier

theres a big difference between what qualifies as "good narrative" and "good character", even when the narrative youre discussing is focusing entirely on that character.

lets give you a couple of examples:

Terezi:

Terezi's a character who has a kind of fucked up storyline that just constantly loops back in on itself; she spends all of act 5 deciding whether to deal with Vriska or not, then gets in abusive relationships in act 6 after not being able to cope with her death. Terezi ends up with massive self esteem issues. Following from THIS, she dies, and retcons the story to undo her mistake and try to prevent the collapse of her self esteem. Sounds like an epic resolution to an arc, right?

Nope - post retcon, they brought Terezi's self esteem issues back but didn't give her the time of day to properly interact with other characters about it. She was unconfident around Vriska and insecure about her altself. Then she has a bit of a breakdown, unlocking some of the potential of her seer of mind abilities, and having a realisation of who truly is. You'd think, wow, Terezi after Remem8er is going to be interacting so much more with the other kids and FINALLY overcome her battle with depression, RIGHT?!?!

uhhh..... she doesnt say anything again until after the comic is over. then shes seen travelling through space.

When the epilogues drop she's interacting with John, they're building on top of their already amazing chemistry, they seem to understand each other like nobody else does in the entire fucking saga. Then Terezi nearly "dies" but another John finds her and they have a heart to heart before Terezi decides it's time go home.

WOOOOOW, you think, Terezi is FINALLY LEARNING TO LOVE HERSELF?!¬?!?!?! an interaction with a HEALTHY PERSON?!?!?!

Then John dies. Then Terezi hates Earth C so much and is so isolated from everybody she knows that she doesn't hesitate to join the villain in space. And it's implied Vriska texts her but she never reads those messages insofar as the canon material ends.

Overall, a rather anticlimactic story about a character whose arc is constantly recycled, not allowed to be given closure at any stage, falling into the same tragedy pit. It's like an art form of cockblocking.

So, why is Terezi as cherished as she is? How come even in the face of the ending, the epilogue, where it feels like Terezi has just been going round in circles, she is probably one of the most loved characters in homestuck?

There's a few factors:

Humor - Being able to make your audience laugh in a genuine way will put you in their favour. Terezi's dark humor, which works in tandem with her general naivete, has always been delightful.

Relevance - The part where Terezi's popularity might have actually struggled would be during Meteorstuck where she was pushed on the sidelines. Every moment she's been around after GAME OVER, however, she's been one of the most active character pushing the plot and generating excitement for whatever thing she's going to do next, even if it does become a loop. Killing John>Killing Vriska>Killing Gamzee>Retconquest>Remem8er>Finding Vriska>Finding John>Leaving with Dirk to save John>??? - she's always on some sort of mission which means if you're thinking about the plot then you might be thinking about something that ties into her storyline.

But most importantly, Authenticity - Terezi's dialogue is actually very well-written, in that she's one of the least wordy characters, but she gets exactly what she's feeling across whenever she talks about it. If you look at all the conversations she's had with Vriska or John or even Dave then you can tell Terezi feels very strongly about whatever she's feeling, and is either trying to disguise that feeling or is trying to put it to words she's struggling to find. Yet even when Terezi can't describe what she's feeling, the audience knows, because her condensed dialogue is expressive enough for us to be able to tell. It also helps that Terezi is one of the most invested in the other cast members, being - if not more righteous - then more analytical of her friends, taking in why they behave the way they do. It doesn't matter that arc-wise she goes in circles, because you can tell exactly how it keeps happening.

I feel like if Terezi didn't have that factor, if there wasn't so much weight to her emotional presentation and if the audience wasn't able to "feel" for her, then she would probably be significantly less popular. I guess that’s why many people feel it’s better for her to still be stuck in the “plot” of homestuck, to lack closure, because maybe closure would feel forced in this universe that’s taken so much from its kids? How can you “forget” what happened and just act like you never entered the game to begin with? Some of the other characters have this issue and it harms them deeply.

Let’s get into that!!!!!

Lord English and Calliope :

I feel so bad for Hussie. He clearly put a lot of thought into the relationship between Calliope and Caliborn, how their characters intertwine throughout this epic story. Yet despite them being the narrative fuel for the entirety of homestuck, and having an awesome thematic ending to their tales, it feels like the "cherub wars" part of homestuck never stuck its foot too deeply in the public consciousness.

Like, let's describe their narration: Two people born in the same body, one good, one evil. One is predestined to rule over the other.

In one universe the cherubs are left in their natural state. The Just cherub, Calliope, predominates... but because the universe is rigged, she is forced to be put into obscurity, residing for billions of years in a hidden dream bubble until the time is right. In another universe, there is intervention - Gamzee introduces the cherubs to humans, and they start to imitate their concepts and feelings. Because of this, Calliope becomes a softer being, engaging happily with the humans. She even wants to take mercy on her brother! But Caliborn takes on human ambition and grows determined to stop his sister from predominating, taking advantage of the human concept of “cheating” in order to beat her at their own game.

Caliborn defeats his sister, and is thrown into a session where he’s forced to overcome seemingly impossible challenges. He succeeds, and is given the ultimate power. Caliborn can will the universe to how he sees fit.

Caliborn’s given just desserts by getting trapped in the juju by the alpha kids but not before the monkey’s paw of trapping all the (alternate) beta kids for millenia, and in becoming trapped, he ends up becoming Lil Cal and Doc Scratch, who manipulate events so that he will rise again as an adult.

But the one thing that drives Caliborn more than anything is the desire to destroy his perfect sister - Calliope. A never ending thirst for her death. For predomination Caliborn never predominated normally so he never gets over it. This is part of why he’s so obsessed with showmanship and art too, to one-up her character. He circles the universe destroying all that is irrelevant, all that is obscure, in the hopes of demolishing all versions of his sister, having the primal fear that she will one day catch him out.

Our predominated calliope meets with the ghost of her alternate self, who tells her that her purpose as a softer human version is to just live her life. To be free. To appreciate all that humanity offers her. Whereas the Alternate Calliope’s role is to commit the ultimate sacrifice, to put an end to her brother’s ego. She absorbs the Green Itself into a catastrophic black hole that erases what is left of the universe.

You think that is the end, but Calliope is reborn in a new form, rewarded for her hard efforts, and becomes a full narrator for the story itself, protecting it from the evil of the Prince. She’s an active guide for the characters of Homestuck, wastching over them. She destroys her brother once and for all, absorping him inside herself.

Wasn’t all of that FUCKING AWESOME?!?!?!??! “Wow”, you think, “Calliope sounds so hardcore!!! I’m sure she’s an amazing character to have such a conclusive storyline like this!!”

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Literally nobody on the internet sees Calliope as their favourite character, except for maybe Past!Shelby Cragg who was her artist. And while Caliborn has his fans, nobody is a big fan of Lord English either. In fact most people tend to forget about the Lord English part of him because it’s just not that engaging!

Basing this on the above analysis about Terezi, what is lacking in terms of these characters?

Humor - Caliborn is a hilarious character, absolutetly no doubt about that. He’s so stupid and the way he sees the world is hilarious. It’s almost Terezi-ish even, except far more exaggerated in terms of his vulgarity and naivete, since he was locked in a fucking cage all his life. Caliborn makes us laugh pretty much every time we see him... but this character is lost entirely in Lord English, who does not wish to engage with the audience at all. Lord English is entirely a machine at this stage, just acting to destroy. As for CALLIOPE, she was never that great in the humor department. I’d be surprised if the original Callie knows what “jokes” are. Alt Calliope was also a stooge until the Epilogue where she trolls Dirk, and yes those parts are delightful and boost her in my eyes significantly, but in the core part of homestuck she is incredibly serious all the time.

Relevance - After reading me narrate the entire Cherub plot and how impactful it was on the entirety of homestuck you’d think I’m a fucking idiot for trying to argue that Calliope and Lord English are irrelevant, right? Well Too Bad!!! That’s exactly what I think. Doc Scratch was relevant to what was happening to our core cast of characters, manipulating them behind the scenes, taking advantage of them and fuelling their personal drama for his greater gain. This is why we love Doc Scratch so much and can even enjoy Ultimate Dirk for doing the same thing. Caliborn had a reduced impact on our main cast, but Lord English’s impact is pretty much nonexistent outside of the first time we see him in Caliborn: Enter. Once again, he’s literally only there to destroy the fucking universe, but when our main characters are either enjoying themselves in the new Alpha session or in Earth C, you have to ask why you or they should be interested in what LE is doing? Dave says so himself, that LE has not done anything wrong to him so he’s not hyped to go kill him. Calliope, meanwhile.... Her relevance is split in two, and neither is too substantial to what our main guys are doing.It “makes sense” as she’s such a passive character, but Calliope’s struggle with relevance doesn’t take me as impacting her too much, and I’ll get onto that in a second. Only one alpha kid ever thinks about her, she doesn’t think about anyone except herself, and while Jade has some kind of relationship with Alt!Callie, it isn’t a personal one by any means. Calliope’s impact on the emotional arcs of homestuck is so minimal that she was erased from the epilogues which she wrote herself. Even Calliope can’t think of anything to do with Calliope!!! How about that!!!

Oh, and of course, Authenticity - Caliborn feels like an authentic character because he deals with actual struggles. Caliborn finds it tremendously difficult to do things other characters might have an easy time with, like drawing, thinking in anything OTHER than straight lines... but he perseveres. Caliborn faces his impossible and brutal tasks head on to claim the Ultimate Reward. He’s fucking EARNED that ability to destroy everything in reality, and by god he’s let us know!!! This is why Caliborn is such a cherished character. Even though he’s evil as fuck, he feels like a real kid somehow. It goes without saying that although Doc Scratch has a different kind of authentic creepiness, Lord English has nothing on him that makes him feel real. He’s just a machine, as said before. CALLIOPE’s authenticity.... The alpha Calliope is a character who became “so nice” and so “perfect” that she ended up losing her fight against her evil brother just because she was that good a person as to let him get the better of her. Nothing that ever happens to her is her fault. She never gets in any conflicts with any character ever, except for that one time she yelled too loud in Candy but nobody told her off for it. Calliope is perfect at art, a fair enough writer. The closest thing to a “flaw” she’s ever had is getting so excited about her friends that she writes creepy fanfic about them, something that is parodied in Candy, which has been implied to be narrated (or at least retold) by Calliope herself in Meat. Simply put, Calliope is... a mary sue. A flawless character. There is absolutely no authenticity and no way to relate to her. Alt Calliope.... she’s a martyr? But why does she want to be a martyr? What does she care about the human characters? She’s even less authentic. It is badass to watch her tear down Dirk, and the story takes advantage of how unreadable she is by making her intimidating as fuck, an all knowing force to contest - no, overpower - that of Dirk or even Hussie himself. Alt Callie is more knowing in her fakeness, she has a better struggle as well what with having to escape from obscurity and overcome her brother, and therefore is a better character, at the end of the epilogues, than the original.

TL;DR: It’s not just about making interesting things happen to your characters. It’s making sure they have interesting reactions to what is going on. If your character becomes someone who things just “happen” to, and who does not respond to those things in an authentic way, then nobody is going to care for them no matter how important or existentially poetic their arc is.

[homestuckhomestuckhomestuck]

Narrator handoff in HS: 

Rules:

1) Narrators are usually “omniscient.” (Possible rule, doc scratch: This only means they are aware of what happens in their own “Alpha timelines,” their birth and their death.) However, omniscience has a particular definition in Homestuck. It means they have an awareness of “the narrative,” the story of Homestuck, and the characters within it, including any Homestuck character’s thoughts, reasoning, and any event at any time that would be relevant within the scope of their narrative control. They are also aware of the audience. They are still vulnerable to the rules of Homestuck, though, which means they can’t see into “void” aspected characters as easily, or other “dark spots,” ie, extremely off the wall hypothetical OOC possibilities of character choices. They also can be distracted by what they are actually doing in story. (ex. AH, Epilogue!Dirk)

2) Narrators are always characters. In Homestuck, exposition is a plot mechanic. (This is only questionable as a rule if the “Choose your character!!!” pages in the A6A6 intermissions count as “narration,” or can’t count as “pre-programmed narration.”) 

3),“Narration” is expositions and commands (“TT: Deploy Totem Lathe.”) (ex. AH’s “one yard” rant) 

4) Narrators can “interfere with [canon?] events.” Narrators can influence characters through narration, which all characters subliminally sense as “a voice in their head,” often mistaking the narration for their own thoughts. However, since a narrator in Homestuck is always a character themselves, even though a narrator may be aware of the character’s natural thought process, the narrator could selectively twist, persuade, or state with conviction to change what a character does/develops, and make it happen within the story. This is called “interference.” (A narrator’s power between “canon” and “post-canon” seems largely based on whatever “AH” would define, so still questioning if there’s even a difference.) 

5) Neutral narration is not referred to as “interference.”

6) Narrators can influence anything told to the audience under the span of their “narrative control,” in a literal sense, even if it is in different time periods or order, as long as it is while they are narrating. (This means following a narrator’s timeline also affects how to read the events they are narrating. ex. AH DOTA)

7) Characters can act according to their own reasoning and events continue to happen even if a narrator isn’t “narrating” it to the audience, including the narrator themself. (Spelled out in Caliborn sections, it was like an exhaustive tutorial in Homestuck "narrator” rules.) This also means that a narrator can leave a lingering (plot affecting) effect on the character, even if they go back to being uninfluenced. 

8) There are different levels of “mastery over the narrative.” This is maybe the most odd-meta Homestuck gets about narrator rules, the more “mastery” a narrator has over the narrative, the more omniscient (able to sense the entire story, as opposed to watching it on a screen) they seem to get, and the more easily they can do longer stretches of actually telling the story to the audience without characters noticing they’re being influenced and fighting them. Also may to be narration-skill based. (ex. AH and Caliborn, Caliborn’s progression, epilogue!Dirk/muse-Calliope.) 

9) “The narrative” includes being able to change story format and style, site formatting and style, music, etc, which may be different from a character’s “confining reality” ie, the story of Homestuck in it’s entirety. (hypothetical, b/c clear distinctions made between John’s retcon ability, vs Caliborn and Dirk’s narration. Using meta reasoning, retcons are only made reasonable a plot mechanic because of John’s character, and in a meta way, allowed possibly because John is the MC. John’s MC status ensures a lot of things are “likely” to happen to him, other plot affecting aspects are personality of the character, classpect, themes, etc. Also, retcons and narration are different abilities, that affect characters and each other differently on different levels. This is totally intentional a distinction. (See: the whole Caliborn vs John incidents.)

10) Considering rules 6 and 7, characters can fight against narration, but “winning” is a more character-specific question of negotiation, classpect, character, themes, build up, etc. 

Note: most of these narrator rules come from Caliborn and AH during Act 6. Some come from Doc Scratch. Act 6 AH in retrospect spells out narrator rules every time he does something. (“You aren’t supposed to be able to contact me [Caliborn].” “[Vriska] had her chance to be important.” ie Narrator still has to stick to the rule that characters must be alive to be important. He also knew he would be turned down because that would be too much interference in plot by AH, the ‘creator of Homestuck.’ Meta. “I didn’t merely write Homestuck, blah blah blah, I’m omniscient.” “[Gamzee] doesn’t die in any timeline I’m personally aware of.” Gamzee dies during a John retcon-caused storyline/event and during a Caliborn-narrated storyline/event.  Zero narration every time John has a span of retcon, but Caliborn continues to speak in the narratives during the span of John retcons, even if AH doesn’t, similar to the doomed timeline “losing contact” mechanic,  though it’s not clear if he’s aware of retcon storyline events.) Epilogue!Dirk and Muse-Calliope only reinforce the mechanics all the way at the end of their specific routes. 

For unclear reasons, Epilogue!Dirk has a lot of parallels with Caliborn, including the part where Caliborn can interact with the narrative during John retcons but AH can’t. 

[dukeofriven]

Fun Jade/Rose Facts (Well... facts.)

Note: These facts are divided between “In-Comic” (Everything from Page 1 of Homestuck (A young man stands in his bedroom...) to page 8128 (The End) and “The Credits” (Pages 8129-8130). If I update this after the Epilogue, we’ll... cross that bridge when we get there.

In-Comic Jade/Rose Facts

Jade and Rose have only five conversations in the entire comic.

1 2 3 4 (2 pages) 5 (2 pages)

Conversation #4 is repeated. We see it first from Jade’s POV, then from Rose’s.

The number of conversations goes up to six if you count GrimBark Jade saying “Bark” and “Hey guys long time no see” to the assembled group in Act 6 Intermission 5 - but since Rose says nothing back, I am not counting this as a conversation.

You may do so if you wish.

After removing dialogue tags (like “TT”) and Pesterlog archival data (“ceased pestering” etc), their shortest conversation is their fourth at 80 words long.

Their longest one-on-one conversation is their third at 571 words long.

Their longest conversation is their fifth. It features Doc Scratch, and runs some 1,170 words long.

All told, about 2,711 words are exchanged in one-another’s chat windows. Discounting Doc Scratch’s intrusion into their final conversation, they speak 2324 words to one-another.

If you are counting the Grimbark conversation, add another 7 words.

6 if ‘BARK” is more of a sound.

By contrast, this single one-page Fruity Rumpus Asshole Factory exchange between Dave, John, and Karkat runs some 2188 words - over a thousand words longer than any single Jade/Rose conversation, and only some 136 less than their entire conversation history.

Rose never speaks a single word to Jade aloud.

Rose never uses Jade’s name in conversation with her.

Jade and Rose "share the screen” 15 times during the comic. (I have excluded both Caliborn’s ‘Homosuck’ cutouts and his Plasticine maquette because A) they are facsimiles of an event recited by an even-more unreliable narrator than usual, not the real thing, and B) Seriously: Fuck That Guy)

One of these on-camera appearances was ret-conned out of existence.

In only seven of these appearances are both Jade and Rose conscious.

Here are all their on-camera appearances:

Act 6 Intermission 5

(Don’t think I ever noticed Gamzee hiding in the background before.) Act 6 Act 5

Act 7

(It’s tough to tell but I think the above photo is the closest Rose and Jade ever get in the comic.)

Rose never speaks to Jade again after their fifth conversation in Act 5 Act 2.

Rose and Jade do not converse for the entirety of Act 6.

Rose and Jade do not converse for the entirety of Act 7

Going off “page math” alone. here are some fun facts about Jade and Rose conversations:

5% - or about 1/20th of the comic - passes before Rose and Jade speak.

Rose and Jade spend 39% - 39/100ths - of the comic “in-touch” with one another.    

They spent the remaining 56% of the comic not talking.

Rose and Jade spend approximately 61% of Homestuck not in-contact, not in-touch with one another.

Counting the repeat conversation and a single still panel, there are only 9 pages in Homestuck where Rose and Jade are talking.

0.11072834645669291% of Homestuck - 5,536,417,323/5,000,000,000,000ths - (5.5 milliard billionths of the comic - 5.5 billion trillionths for our American readers. ~11/10000) is devoted to Rose and Jade’s “on-screen” relationship. And that’s counting a repeat conversation and a silent panel.

Rose and Jade “share” the screen - either while message-conversing or literally “in the same shot” in 20 pages of Homestuck.

That’s 0.24606299212598426% of Homestuck. About 24,606,299,213/10,000,000,000,000 (~1/400ths) of the comic.

Homestuck contains about 817,612 words.

Jade-Rose conversations all together comprise some 2779 words, taking into account that the fourth conversation is repeated twice.

Jade-Rose conversations comprise approximately 0.33989227163984875% of Homestuck’s text.

That’s 8497306791/2500000000000ths

Credits Jade/Rose Facts

There is no canonical evidence that Jade attended Rose’s wedding.

Seriously - she’s not there in the pictures. When all the kids are lifting the bride and bride up on chairs as part of the “thing done during the horah that isn’t actually part of the horah guess who just did a deep dive into the history of the horah did you know it’s from Greece via Romania and only dates back to 1930 as a traditional pan-Jewish custom it’s kind of like clan tartans in that it’s a cultural touchstone that feels ancient but isn’t” she’s... absent. Jake is in the picture twice once at the top, once in trickster mode on the bottom. Jade Harley: had better things to do than go to Rose’s wedding?

Jade and Rose are the only two kids to never be shown with Trickster modes.

This following photograph is the only conversation Rose and Jade ever have in-person in all the Homestuck franchise. It is their only moment of contact after Act 5 Act 2. We have no demonstrative way of proving that they ever conversed in-person before John’s 18th birthday party on Earth-C:

This is their only verbal conversation, and their only conversation to go textually unrecorded.

We have no way of proving that this is not Rose and Jade burying the hatchet after a... four year feud after Jade clumsily let Rose know her mother had been brutally murdered. 

This is 1.3297872340425532% of the entire credits video.

That’s 664893617/50000000000ths of the entire credits - because the only good joke is a cumbersome running joke.

BONUS: Snapchat Jade/Rose Facts

Welcome to the land of dubious canonicity. [Update 23/04/19: I’d like to note that I used this phrase before the Epilogues hit. Also, these are now officially outside of even the broader Homestuck meta-canon as far as anyone can tell. Radio silence on this remains aggravating. What were these and what did Andrew Hussie actually want?]

Do you remember the Snapchats? They didn’t stop being a thing or anything.

... well, they did, actually. Who knows if they’re canon any more. [Again: they are not]

That’s why this section is a bonus - its demi-canonical!

Man, remember when we were all excited that the future of Homestuck was going to be snapchats?

We were going to get so many snapped chats.

So many you guys.

Sigh.

Please no walking on the grass. That grass is only semi-canon. We are liable for damages with the rental company.

Jade and Rose appear together in one (1) snapchat photo:

I’m pretty sure this is the only Beta kids group shot in the entirety of Homestuck!

This Jade/Rose interaction comprises 1.5151515151515151% of all the snapchats.

That’s 946969697/62500000000ths.

That’s really all there is to say on the matter.

FAQ Will you cover the Epilogue?

I will, of course, update this most important resource if/when the Epilogue gives us any more Jade/Rose content. Statistically speaking, it won’t take up much space. You missed interaction [X]! Can I tell you about it?

Yes please! Thanks for letting me know, I will add it right away and update my maths.

You missed interaction [Caliborn’s Master Plan]! Can I -? You may not. This seems elaborate and kind of pointless - why would you do this? Because Jade/Rose is a ship and talking about the Jade/Rose friendship is a thing and I... uh... I didn’t get it. But now having done all this work I... ... I still don’t get it. I always questioned Jade/Rose because I said to myself “they don’t really interact much,” and now that I’ve sat down and run the numbers they really don’t interact much. Now if you’re wondering “did you run though every single conversation looking for the times Jade mentioned Rose or Rose mentioned Jade” the answer would be “ha ha ha that would be crazy of course I did.” I am very tired. And... they don’t talk about each-other much. I mean ‘actually’ talk - I’m not counting all the “hey do you know what Rose/Jade is doing” questions asked between the kids or the trolls (though there’s not that many, really) - I’m talking about actual conversations, like when John talks about how he feels about having to marry Rose according to the Shipping Chart or Karkat mutters that Jade maybe kind of meant something to him once. Jade has this to say about Rose - talking to, of all people, Eridan: GG: rose? GG: i do not have a score to settle with rose!!! GG: why would you think that?    CA: oh CA: wwell fuck CA: suppose i wwas guessin it wwas natural to presume somesuch relation like that betwween the twwo a you    GG: i think you are projecting your own attitude on to others GG: just because you tend to hate and/or hit on everyone you meet doesnt mean everyone else is that way GG: rose just sent me a code for a crystal ball, shes my friend and is basically the best!  It’s a very Harleybert sentiment. And sadly it doesn’t add up to anything. At the very least, Rose doesn’t think that much about Jade. Take it from me: a guy who literally went through every conversation Rose and Jade ever had with and about each other: Rose doesn’t think much about Jade. When Jade shows up sleeping at the end of act six lots of people talk about her: Rose’s only comment is to make a crack about Jade ending end-game ships when she wakes up, and also to note that there was Bird Dave and Dog Jade and Cat Rose but No [Animal] Egbert. That’s it. The most Rose ever has to say is the “she has the karma” conversation all the way back in Act 3 - and it’s still really about Dave. When GrimbarkJade shows up on LOLAR... Rose makes no comment whatsoever. Jade does not take the time to go see Rose when she wakes up in the ret-con timeline. Jade discusses Rose with John only in the context of John and his shipping chart destiny. Rose never seems to have anything to say about Jade to Dave or John. If these kids had had a normal sibling existence in the same high school and John had been hit by a car Jade would have remained friends with Dave but she and Rose would be revealed to not be all that close - their common point of friendship is John, not one-another. Rose talks about so much shit - but not about Jade. Jade might say Rose is “the best” but it’s Harley hyperbole more than anything: she didn’t even get Rose a birthday present because she says Rose is hard to shop for! Rose LaLonde is hard to shop for? What?

There. It’s an Emily the Strange t-shirt with Charles Dutton’s head. it took me ten seconds to come up with it you are welcome Jade. You want to ship Rose/Jade? Fuck yeah, man - go for it! You want to write an eighty thousand word fan-fiction on Rose and Jade: BFF Treasure Hunter Essayists? Sounds fucking rad please write that. You want to say that, canonically, Jade and Rose are great friends? I’m going to have to disagree. Homestuck is a story about four friends - it is not a story about four equally friendly friends. Maybe it was meant to be: not going to lie, I like Act 6 and the ending of Homestuck a lot but even I concede that Jade gets shafted in the “having shit to do” department - the fact that she sits out the big Giant Talky Session at the end of the comic? Weird as shit. If she was up and awake and had any kind of conversation with Rose where they seemed friendly and in-touch I would change my opinion in a heartbeat: I’m not some crank who hates Jade and Rose being best of friends because I’m a weirdo. I mean I am a weirdo but for other reasons, not this. No, I just don’t agree with the idea because it’s not supported by the text. Five conversations in seven acts? Less than 3,000 words exchanged in a document running into the hundred of thousands - and some of that repeat, and some of that the words of a giant cueball tool? If Andrew Hussie wanted us to believe that Jade Harley and Rose LaLonde are particularly close friends, he put no sign of that into the text. If I missed something please - tell me. Argue it with me, even, if you disagree with my assessment - or my math.I am not great at math. Regardless - reach out. We should talk about this more. Edit: Updated 10:38 EST April 12, 2019: corrected multiple typos, changed “dismissed” to “questioning,” clarified point about the horah to sound less weird.

[betweengenesisfrogs]

The City of the Old Emperors: Thoughts on Openbound

DJay’s post reminded me that I have a lot of vague thoughts about Openbound, which I’ve never managed to organize into a coherent essay. In part, I was waiting for DJay to share his idea of Openbound as a kind of katabasis (journey to the underworld), which is central to a lot of my thinking these days. Now that that idea’s arrived, let me talk about some of my own.

Spoilers, as with all the best Homestuck analysis, for the book version of The Neverending Story.

1.

So. I’m very much in agreement with DJay’s big thesis that the shallow, annoying personas the Dancestors hide in are a ruse - a distaction, if you will. The dancestors present themselves as annoying, one-note characters, but they actually have a lot of history and pretty complex psychology if you look a little further - it’s just that at *this* point, after a billion years of living out their memories they’ve retreated into simplistic roles that they can safely play without engaging any more deeply with their past. Terezi and Karkat even acknowledge this, calling them caricatures. I love DJay’s term - “shades.”

I think where this really clicked for me was in in-story Hussie’s comment on Latula. He claims there’s nothing more to her other than being a cool rad gamegrl radgirl coolgirl.

This is obvious bullshit. Talking to her as Porrim reveals that Latula puts on the gamegirl persona as a way of dealing with other people, and she’s actually kind of relieved to be able to drop the act and acknowledge her problems. Relatedly, talking to Kankri as her reveals that she’s dealing with the problem of him awkardly hitting on her, which is one reason she retreats into a Gamegrl persona around him.

This is true for basically all of the characters introduced in Openbound. In-story, Kurloz is dismissed as a ridiculous mime when he’s helping Gamzee orchestrate LE’s rise and suppressing the agency of his friends (oh hey, Gamzee does this too, putting on the persona of “lolrandom incomprehensible prankster”); Cronus is indeed terrible, but terrible in a “what could have been kind of way” where he once had the chance to be a Harry Potter-esque hero; Mituna babbles and insults but only because he burnt his brain out making a great heroic sacrifice, Damara distracts the pretty significant statements she’s making about LE with vulgarity, Rufioh is pretty insecure beneath being Rufioh ...the list goes on.

So Hussie, in his in-story persona, is a god damn liar, and this is key to everything to that comes next.

The funny thing is, you don’t get the real stories from Hussie. You get it from talking to Aranea, which is framed as an act of “indulging” her, and by extension the author...but it’s only this “background” information which gives these characters complex lives and motivations beyond their personas. The effect it has is not of indulgence - the effect is to frame the whole dancestor ballet as a non-indulgence, revealing them as deeper than they seem.

(At this point, though, many readers will already be sick of them, and miss what’s really going on.)

Porrim would seem to be the one exception. In her case, though, I think it’s not so much that the reader doesn’t recognize her complexity as a person, but that her friends don’t. They stereotype her as being all about sex and relationship when her sex positivity is actually part of a larger goal of honestly examining her society. She’s the only one who can see the personas for what they are, since she recognizes it as something put on her from the outside.

2.

The theme of a voyage to the underworld (katabasis) can be analyzed a number of different ways, and all of them fit Homestuck. As an epic, Homestuck of course has an obligation to go to the land of the dead halfway through its story, so that the protagonist can learn something they need to know.

If there’s anything we’re learning these days, though, the protagonist of the epic Homestuck isn’t a character,  it’s the MSPA reader. It’s us who make the journey to Homestuck’s underworld. Meenah plays the role of hero there, with Aranea her guide, but we know that we move through which characters we control, each of them being temporary analogues for our will. We are the ones who descend into its hell.

(And now I think we’re finally figuring out what we’re supposed to learn there.)

Just as DJay says, the fact that these characters are reduced to stereotyped shades is all Lord English’s fault. Literally, they’ve been hollowed-out by millions of years of being trapped in their memories, thanks to his machinations ruining their lives, and now face his threat again in the afterlife. Metafictionally, we’ve been asked *not* to care about them by the narrative, in the same way Caliborn demands that we don’t give a shit about Homestuck. That’s LE’s great power over the narrative: the threat of apathy.

3.

I tend to think of Life, in Homestuck’s platonic-narrative symbolic system, as representing positive character growth, and by extension things that readers experience as positive development. It’s interesting, then, that the one who brings these dead souls back to life is Meenah, a Life player. It’s even more interesting in that it’s Meenah who deprived them of their lives in the first place. Thinking to escape a dead session for the afterlife, the Thief of Life robbed them of their literal lives, but she also robbed them of their chance to grow as a people. They are thus echoes and victims of LE’s nature as a being that cannot grow or change, and is doomed because of it. But also, it’s kind of Meenah’s fault. Her frustration with them echoes her own choices.

(Worth noting, though, that Tavros is able to persuade them to take part in the final fight against him! It’s subtle, but a little burst of Life at the last moment.)

4.

Openbound is full of good parallels to katabasis mythology. The dream-bubble afterlife echoes both Greek Hades and Christian hell. Homestuck’s dancestors are a lot like the shades Odysseus and Aeneas encounter: they’re faded ghosts, “shades,” who can’t speak until the hero gives them blood to restore their intelligence for a brief time. In Homestuck, what we - and Meenah - give them is a brief window of attention. But it won’t last, and it won’t restore them to life. But it’s also Dante’s Hell. Dante sees souls undergoing ironic punishments, trapped by their own greed, avarice, and lust. The limitation of their will is what keeps them in hell.

There’s one more descent story which I think is very instructive here, though.

And that would be the City of the Old Emperors from Michael Ende’s The Neverending Story, a tale which has quite a bit of relevance for Homestuck.

5.

The first half of The Neverending Story featured the protagonist Bastian being called into the pages of the book and the world of Fantastica, explicitly stated to be a realm made of humanity’s ideas, to recreate this world anew. In the second half of the book, he does so. Unfortunately, as he becomes more sure of his world-creating power, Bastian loses the memory of his own humanity, and begins to forget that Fantastica is not merely his plaything. Declaring himself Emperor, he tries to pretend he created it all, when really he was only acting through the power of another, The Childlike Empress. Bastian soon undergoes a spectacular fall at the hands of his previous allies and friends.Only then can he wake from his reverie and find the last wish he needs to achieve redemption.

But for that redemption to happen, he needs to go into a kind of underworld himself, to learn what mistake it was that he was making.

After being defeated by his friends, Bastian stumbles into a strange city. His horse disappears under him, and he falls - down, down into a crater, where there is a city of strange buildings, full of people in strange clothes doing bizarre things. Before long, he finds a monkey-like guide named Argax, who calls the place the City of the Old Emperors. These strange figures, Argax informs him, were all people from the human world who declared themselves Emperors as Bastian did, and this is the sad result.

“How did they get here? What are they doing here?”

“Oh, there have always been humans who couldn’t find their way back to their world,” Argax explained. “First they didn’t want to, and now, in a manner of speaking, they can’t.[...]”

“Why can’t they?” he asked.

“They’d have to wish it. And they’ve stopped wishing. They used up their last wish for something else.”

“Their last wish?” said Bastian, going deathly pale. “Can’t a person go on wishing as long as he pleases?”

“[...]No! No!” he chattered. “You can only wish as long as you remember your world. These people here used up all their memories. Without a past you can’t have a future. That’s why they don’t get older. Just look at them. Would you believe that some of them have been here a thousand years and more? But they stay just as they are. Nothing can change for them, because they themselves can’t change anymore.”

- The Neverending Story, Chapter 23, pg 378-379

Bastian learns that all these people used up their wishes, leaving them unable to understand or interact with the world. Imagination eludes them - they can only tell stories by randomly forming words from jumbles of letters. Because they didn’t understand where their wishes were coming from, they were left without the capacity for wishes altogether

Another way of saying this is that they were left without will. They have no will to impact the world, because they turned away from the world altogether, retreating into a false idea of themselves. A persona, and not a person who could grow.

This is exactly the position we find the dancestors in in Homestuck. In both Homestuck and the Neverending Story, the limitations of one’s own will are the limitations of one’s agency to influence reality, and the Beforans have given up their will. Theirs is the same mistake as Bastian’s, as Caliborns, and it leaves them hollowed-out, unpleasant, shallow people.

It is their ideas about their will that failed them.

From his encounter with the Old Emperors, Bastian learns the truth about his wishes, enabling him to make his last few wishes count, and bringing him to where he needs to be to find the Waters of Life and make his final wish a wish for his own capacity to love.

So what do we need to learn from the Beforans?

Like us, Bastian is at once both a reader and the protagonist of the story. Michael Ende uses Bastian’s experience to argue that readers have a responsibility to the stories they read and tell. We must give them dignity by breathing life into them, rather than read them in self-indulgent, shallow ways, and we must be willing to grow as we read them.

Homestuck suggests much the same thing. Just as Bastian needed to descend to the hell of the Old Emperors to understand his mistake, we need to descend to the hell of the Dancestors to understand the final confrontation with Caliborn. Like them, we are offered a choice. We are shown his limited view of the world - a view that reduces Homestuck to shallow jokes. We must decide whether we will become him - or set ourselves free.

And to set them free, from the hell they’ve made for themselves, we must also, difficult as it is, believe that the Dancestors can change, more than they can believe it themselves.

In presenting us with their ballet, Hussie challenges us with his favorite question: are we going to accept the surface level,  that Homestuck is just a bad joke full of meaningless flat characters?

Or are we going to take up his challenge to look a little deeper, to breathe life into them and believe there’s more going on beneath the surface - even, no, especially when it’s hardest to do so?

The dark hell of Openbound is the other side of the triumph of Calliope’s Rapture. Homestuck’s fractal structure reflects itself many times over, again and again asking us what we make of it, because we can make of it what we will.

But what will we make of it?

Ah, that is our story, and will be told another time.

[abundantchewtoys]

Homestuck Epilogues: Prologue, reaction post part 1

So me and Blaperile have decided to start reading it now. I kind of hope the format & art style stays true to form, but then again, change could be interesting. In any case, if this epilogue were to include the already posted snaps, that would be a break from format in image size (not including the credits, of course).

I guess if there is immediately an [S] page, it'll be the second one, not the first, to give use aheads up in the command.

Okay, so the first is a title page.

The link to the next page says... homestuck.com/epilogues/proglogue. Andrew, NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

(Yeah okay, so it has begun. Again.)

I could see the snaps being the prologue, since they kind of set the stage for what's to come. Jane taking control over The Felt being a major development, for one. Also, the noted absence of Davepetasprite^2 & Arquiusprite on Earth C. Or, perhaps rather, the noted presence of all the other sprites, they didn't stop being spirit guides after the game ended. And in the credits of course, there was John's being aggravated by Caliborn to the point this all would lead presumably to the clay doll scene Caliborn showed us, taking place further into the future than any of us had business viewing at the time.

---

> Start

AAAAAAHHHHH, Homestuck's a fanfic now!!! Yes, this is the Archive of Our Own format, including tags and... Andrew is no longer sole author of this story!!!

We have achieved MAXIMUM FANDOM (or should I say FANON).

Characters: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-h... Barack Obama?! :P I guess maybe John switched to a Baracktop in light of out-of-story events, plus of course Dave's idolization of the man. :P And Aranea returns!! And Davepeta too, cool! ... Wait, there's gonna be new OCs?? :P ... In before Joey & Jude & troll friends join the Homestuck madness. Well, if we can rely on this list of course. This IS Andrew Hussie we're talking about, of course.

Hmmm, Blaperile has a good point that Davepeta & Arquius are mentioned but not their component A2 trolls, since the "main" versions of them (post-retcon) are inside the sprites! And that all these characters except maybe for Caliborn (pre-LE, I mean) MIGHT just end up in the Furthest Ring together to do... whatever there needs to be done with the black hole aftermath of the standoff between Vriska & LE. And Calliope seems to be joining them, which is a nice thing to look forward too, main Calliope doing a plot thing. ... No mention of carapaces, but again, that doesn't have to mean anything.

Caliborn's entry seems to me to imply we might see the claydoll fight animated (or at least drawn) properly! :D

Barack is probably an Easter Egg just, nothing more. Which is funny because Easter is coming.

Content warnings: ... All these things (well not all of them, but) just refer to things mentioned in Homestuck proper. :P Quite the list we racked up, eh? Also, Gamzee hath invaded the list: clowns, honk... Hahah. Surprised "horses" didn't make it on here. And puppets. So I know I was saying I don't really believe these tags to truthfully warn about things to come in this epic, but I'm kind of scared by the mention of Trickster Mode. :P ... Oh yeah, hahah, that WAS something that happened at the wedding, didn't it, Calliope bringing the sucker & transforming John & the B2 kids? So that thing survived the end of the session we know.

Another thing making me uncomfortable is all the illicit subjects the warnings are about, but yeah, that's what a lot of fanfics contain.

Summary: ... Ooooh, so John DIDN'T immediately take off to fight Caliborn! That's... I actually had wagered the epilogue to start on April 13th, 2019 thinking about it over the weekend. It would just seem so fitting, but I thought it might have been so that the B2 kids would have aged a relative 2 years during the time the B1 kids were stuck in the house. So that they could go back to filling that big brother/sister relationship that was kind of always there, first & foremost shown in the Strider Bros, later when we didn't know yet that the kids would be the same age when they'd meet up, during Act 6 Act 1.

Blaperile has a good point, this means Terezi has been exploring the Furthest Ring for 7 years (or almost 4 sweeps).

Contents: This looks like it could grow into a list. Since, well, this is the prologue just yet for the epilogue hahah. Then again, maybe we 'return' to this page after the prologue is done, only for the list to have grown with the next... "act".

> Prologue

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH WALL OF TEXT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HOMESTUCK IS A FANFIC NOWWWWWWWWWWWWW for real. ... Oh dear god.

Well, it's definitely a medium Andrew didn't touch on yet, the "picture this for yourselves" type of fiction. Kind of incentive for people to draw this for themselves.

And then Homestuck became a serialized novel. :D

Okay that entire first sentence. I'm definitely on the same page here as everyone when I say this must be about the Furthest Ring cracking. ... I think Andrew's propensity for dragging out a story comes over quite well in fanfic prose form.

Hmm... So, "eternity" is being filled by the black hole, and continuity is buckling up? Seems like the entirety of Homestuck proper might be at risk of being undone in something more damaging than a mere retcon.

Wow, nice vivid description of the dreambubbles being shattered. "Hypothetical futures", does that suggest that the ghosts of alternate timelines were more like... mirages? That's a harsh thing to swallow, and not something any of them would have been happy hearing stated as fact. Well, except the Aradiabots, maybe. "Double-death" mention!

... So there's a symphony at the center of the black hole. Does that mean Alternate Calliope still lives (or well, "exists"), as the conductor of the havoc? It's super black at the center, apparently. Like, Vantablack?

Wait, "> Wake up"? Did John dream about the Furthest Ring? ... What DO the kids dream, after they won the game? Or rather, where do they dream?

"You've been dreaming in anime again." Ah yes, there's the first real meme of the evening. So, John rejects this dramatic dream and will rather substitute his own fantasies? :P

"> Look outside just to make absolutely sure the world is not ending." --> Why does it feel like we've started this adventure anew? Why are command prompts working out so well in this format?

'The only sound you can hear for miles is the wind skimming the hollows of your neighbors’ pipe homes.' Well, if that isn't a reference to his atmospheric page! And oh yeah, that was his new neighbourhood! Or, after 7 years, not 'new' anymore, I guess.

'It’s a normal day in the salamander village, which you refer to as Salamander Village because the damned salamanders never bothered to give this village a name, you guess.' Perfection. So, it appears the consort species remain the same, no matter how many millenia may pass. I wouldn't like to be a mail person in the Consort Kingdom, if all packages are to be delivered at Salamander Village. Then again, the Breeze might still be on mail duty on Earth C.

'Beside your pillow, your phone is vibrating. Rose is calling. The screen of your phone reads 9:30 a.m. April 13, and also the number forty-six, which is how many text messages your friend left you while you were sleeping. A bit excessive, even for her.' Ahahahah, so even in texts Rose is wordy!! Good to see they kept in contact, then. Not as much in-person contact, seeing the credits, but then again, the kids always used to live apart, didn't they? (I can still call them 'the kids', even if we're no longer a decade apart in age. Get of my lawn!)

"> Answer the phone." Yessssss, coloured text logs!! In the absence of drawings, it would've really sucked a little and be bland if we'd lacked this.

Aww, April 13th is still a solemn day for John. :/ Rose is calling it "April Thirteenth" as if it's a holiday, which it might just be. Blaperile has a good point that John has called Rose directly, and isn't texting. The immediate assumption for what Rose said, was that they don't talk a lot, but maybe they don't CALL each other a lot, just trade messages!

"You wander to the window and watch the salamanders go about their day. All over the neighborhood, the little dad-salamanders are putting on their little rumpled hats and picking up their little suitcases and kissing their little families goodbye for the day. You’ve always been confused about what, exactly, they contribute to the global economy. But it’s pretty cute how much they love playing at being suburban businessmen."

Pfff, the rumple hats are still a thing, guess the kids really did shape this universe in much the same way as the session! (Okay yeah, so, consorts came over from the session too, so the fact that the custom remains to the current day might just be another showcase for the status quo that consorts live under when not interacting with PCs...) Of course, this is going to sting for John, all this dadly business going around.

"The silence over the phone is growing awkward. You’ve stalled long enough. You decide to just come out and say it.

JOHN: i’ve been dreaming in anime again lately."

Aaaaaand meme number two is here. Blaperile mentioned Act 7, and yeah, John DID dream about the Furthest Ring & the blackhole, both centerpice in the Act 7 animated video. :P

"ROSE: i see." Therapist mode, engaged. Next, ask him how he feels about the dream, Rose.

"JOHN: whenever i have these dreams, everything’s breaking apart.

JOHN: millions of people are screaming and dying." Huh, is it that John didn't recognize the ghosts (being the oblivous bloke he is), or is there something more to the danger of the black hole? After all, after all of the Furthest Rings is swallowed, what's left is sessions and the universes they spawned...

"A couple yards over, a salamander blows an astounding spit bubble. Truly one for the books." Meanwhile...

"ROSE: I don’t have the slightest idea what it means that you’ve been dreaming in anime, John.

ROSE: To be honest, I...

You wait for Rose to finish her thought. She doesn’t, which is troubling because you have never known Rose to leave a thought unfinished in over ten years of acquaintance." ... Did she have a Light vision, or is someone pulling her sleeve about this or other with the troll grubs? It just hit me, we might be in for some new venues in the relationships between the humans & trolls, since yeah, they're all adults now.

"JOHN: rose... are you ok?

ROSE: Not exactly.

JOHN: what’s wrong?

ROSE: I think my condition’s been getting worse lately.

JOHN: condition?

ROSE: It’s why my message probably sounded urgent.

JOHN: you left 46 messages.

ROSE: Yes. They were all urgent.

JOHN: oh.

ROSE: I don’t think I can wait much longer before telling you."

So, Blaperile was theorizing Kanaya or Rose might be pregnant based on her trailing off. I dismissed it out of hand, but now... It would be just something for Rose to designate a pregnancy as a "condition". ... And to see contractions as a worsening of that condition. If John just talked about anime over Rose trying to tell him the baby is coming, I might just scream. And it's on HIS birthday, too!

"ROSE: I held out for as long as I could. I figured your birthday was as good a time as any to let you know.

JOHN: let me know what?

ROSE: It’s crept up on me, these last couple of years.

ROSE: Gradually enough to ignore as it was happening, but I can’t anymore." Okay, so this seems to dismiss that. I'm actually somewhere halfway between "Rose is suffering from some sort of aspect-driven migraine/dementia due to the black hole", or secondly "Rose is realizing she loves John (platonically)". I mean, the latter would be standard-issue Lalonde fuckery.

"ROSE: Lately the visions have been overwhelming.

JOHN: visions??

ROSE: John, I have terrible headaches these days. Talking on the phone doesn’t help at all.

ROSE: Would you mind flying to my apartment, so we can continue this in person?

JOHN: oh, yeah. you mean...

JOHN: now?

ROSE: Yes, now is the time.

ROSE: I’ve put it off long enough." ... Oh. So, I guess Rose was ignoring these visions because she was like "fuck you, multiverse, I earned my happy ending", which I get, but... What visions does she have, do they match what John was describing? (I don't think she wants to get him over for a surprise birthday party, in any case.)

Wow, okay, so whatever drove them to go fight Caliborn, it wasn't just John convincing the rest of them. Should've known, he was never that kind of leader.

"As you hang up the phone, a familiar feeling settles over you. A feeling of...standing? Standing, and being alone. In your bedroom. As a young man. On your birthday. You swear you’ve felt this feeling before. It’s almost like...

A young man stands alone in his bedroom. It just so happens that today, the 13th of April, is this young man’s birthday. Though it was twenty-three years ago when he was given life, and ten years ago when he was given a name, it feels like it is only today that he will begin to understand what all that means.

That young man is YOU, John Egbert.

What will you do?"

Oh HELL yes. That first shoutout was glorious, but the actual word for word callback? Priceless. And the fact that the narration gives John the initiative for what happens now? Glorious. Because it sure as hell ain't gonna be US giving him prompts, this time around. And what in the high hills is there for John to find out about what it all means! I mean, is he going to discover the nature of his existence as a fictional character? Because that might just crush his widdle brains.

Okay, this is as good a place as any to cut off this liveblog. Since I'm not sure how long this prologue might continue after this!

Cooooool though, we've started this journey anew. For however long it's going to last. Which, given the fact the epilogues get their own entry on the Homestuck site... Might be a very, very long time. It's three years since the ending of Homestuck, and I wonder how reading up is going to be. For now, everything kind of fell back into the old pattern between me and Blaperile. We'll see what we'll do next.

I'm equal parts exhilarated and anxious about getting on Mr. Hussie's wild rollercoaster again, so I'm going to try and quarantine the anxious part and cultivate the exhilarated part.

[homestuckexamination]

What is Time in Homestuck? What is its function, its purpose, what are timelines, what defines the Alpha and doomed timelines. How do timeloops work?

Time in Homestuck takes from a couple of theories about the workings of Time and Parallel Timelines. So, Time itself doesn’t have any Function, much like in real life, instead, Space and Time are treated as the two main building frames of a physical reality, to the point where the Universe Frog requires a Space and Time players to actually even be possible to be created.

Going in detail though, according to Homestuck’s Interpretation, there’s an Alpha Timeline that marks a path that must be followed, but there are alternate realities, sometimes required by the demands of the Alpha Timeline itself, where divergent Choices and Actions from the various characters have led to a deviation from this path that needs to be followed. A Time Loop is nothing more than ensuring no Paradoxes are created while following this Alpha. For example, according to the Alpha Timeline, Lil Cal ends up in Jack Noir’s possession, and eventually is shot through a meteor portal into Alternia. This is a stipulation that must be followed, so in the Timeline where John dies because Terezi sent him to see Typheus early? We learn with John’s ghost, that Typheus didn’t actually just insta-murder him, he gave him a Choice, to Die for the benefit of the Timeline. The thing that doomed the Timeline wasn’t John dying- It was Dave prototyping Lil Cal. Davesprite needed to exist, because without Dave preventing Lil Cal from being prototyped, Lil Cal would become a sprite, and thus never get to Alternia. This is the kind of Paradoxes Stable Timeloops want to avoid, and the reason this Timeline leaves behind a Doomed Rose. We see in a couple of occasions, Daves dying when a Time Loop is broken- When Dave screws up Time-Travelling, he creates an offshot Dave that doesn’t become ‘future Dave’, instead it’s its own iteration of Dave unrelated to the Alpha Timeline, and as such, Doomed to die. Davesprite manages to become un-Doomed by Prototyping himself into Davesprite, and thus becoming an integral part of the Alpha Timeline, rather than a Doomed Version.

Of course this still leaves the question of what the Alpha Timeline itself is. After all, we see dead God Tier Trolls, implying that actually becoming god-like is somehow not Alpha, and thus rendering the explanation of the Alpha Timeline being the ‘best’ or ‘most beneficial’ path impossible. No, in fact, the entirety of the Alpha Timeline is filled with Death and Suffering and awful things and characters being erased off the story.

This is because the Alpha Timeline is, in reality, a Time Loop that favors the Lord of Time, Caliborn. All the Alpha Timeline does is ensure Lord English is created and does what he does in the story, after all, he IS the Lord of Time, and he Commands Time itself. Paradox Space bends to his will.

[S] MSPA Reader: Mental Breakdown is a quick example of one of the Alpha Timeline’s most important devices- Lil Cal. A Juju which contains the Essence of Lord English, and needs to follow an EXTREMELY specific path to reach where it needs to reach, dividing in two at one point to become an Entry in Caliborn’s Land, through which he spreads his influence, and in which he eventually becomes trapped, and an Exit in the Lil Cal Dave has, which eventually ends in Gamzee’s Possession, and is ultimately used to convert Jack Noir into a Proxy for Lord English.

Everything in Alpha Timeline is delicately crafted to eventually lead to Caliborn’s Rise. Lil Cal is not just the Entry and the Exit, the Vessel for His Soul, it’s also the only reason why Caliborn manages to achieve full, unconditional Immortality. When he reaches Yaldabaoth’s Boon, he uses the Juju Breaker Crowbar to obtain Inconditional Immortality. Crowbar which he’s had since before he actually met ‘Crowbar’ from the Felt. Crowbar which was gifted to him by Gamzee of all people, the Troll who raised Calliope and Caliborn. Gamzee needed to be there to raise the twins, and he offered the tool that would eventually grant him Immortality. And how did both Gamzee and the Crowbar get to Caliborn? Through the Black Hole created after killing the Jack Noir possessed by Lord English through Lil Cal. Black hole which ALSO absorbed a majority of LOTAK, including its core, where the Denizen Yaldabaoth himself was, making it seem like everything relevant to Caliborn’s Session arrived there in the first place only thanks to Lil Cal.

Similarly, even the God Damn Retcon favors Lord English, even though it seems like a Canon-Breaking tool, even though it seems like something meant to bypass the Alpha Timeline in the first place, it’s actually a necessary tool for Lord English’ creation- Without the Retcon Powers, John would’ve never reached Caliborn’s Masterpiece, becoming stuck in the House Juju with the other three Betas. He wouldn’t have led the Kids that would, in turn, defeat Caliborn and suck his Soul, ARquius’ Soul and half of Gamzee’s into Lil Cal to create the amalgam known as Lord English. And without the Beta Kids stuck in the House, it would’ve never been filled in, and thus become the double-edged sword that would eventually cast Lord English into the Breach.

But of course even the Retcon favors Lord English- After all, he kills the Author. Caliborn interacts with Hussie through the Command Prompt, and physically smacks the website around on several occasions, as well as glitches the cartridge containing the data to continue the story. Doc Scratch and Vriska seem to be the only other characters in the comic to even be aware of the existence of Hussie as the Narrator- With Scratch being part Lord English, and Vriska literally getting angry at Hussie for switching the narrative just as she was about to reveal the House Juju, and tearing it back from him to show everyone what was in the Juju Chest. A Villain that messes with the Narrative itself would definitely still benefit from a tool meant to break the narrative. And in the same way, when the Villain of the Story has control over not just Reality, but the direction of the Narrative, the only two that can oppose it are a Character who Knows they are in a Story and Wants to be the Protagonist, and a Protagonist who Can Alter the Narrative and just wants to be Happy.

As such, Homestuck takes the idea of ‘parallel timelines’, and throws us a scenario in which an evil entity has basically overwritten Free Will through imposing himself in a very specific path, so if I had to give a short answer to the question of what “Time” and “The Alpha Timeline” is? I’d have to answer, The Alpha Timeline is Homestuck in itself, both the story and the struggle of the characters as they navigate through it.

( From this point downwards, these are my THOUGHTS and opinions, and may not reflect what’s strictly Canon or what may happen in the future )

This ties in to my thoughts on why I think Act 7 is good, contrary to what many in the Fandom seem to believe. We’re shown Caliborn’s rise to immortality, the beginning of his journey towards becoming Lord English, and eventually becoming the big villain of the story, contrasted with Vriska inserting herself in the role of the Heroine, even though everything was already set in the story for this exact same culmination and all she did was take the spotlight by opening the Juju Chest, and the Release of the Kids from the Alpha Timeline to live in Earth-C, free of the influence of Lord English, of the grasp he’s had on their choices and their existence.

Already at the very beginning, John himself states it clearly. 

It is your thirteenth birthday, and as with all twelve preceding it, something feels missing from your life. The game presently eluding you is only the latest sleight of hand in the repertoire of an unseen riddler, one to engender a sense not of mirth, but of lack. His coarse schemes are those less of a prankster than a common pickpocket. His riddle is Absence itself. It is a mystery dispersing altogether, like the moon’s faint reflection, with even one pebble of inquiry dropped in its black well. It is the most diabolical riddle of all.

When the Kids cross the threshold of the Door to the new Universe, the story ends canonically, because they’ve escaped the Time Loop known as the Alpha Timeline, they’re beyond English’ Realm. They are no longer Stuck, and they’re free to make their choices without fearing the creation of an offshot Timeline or worrying about what may happen in the future.

It’s my belief that the fact we see Caliborn with the Ring of Life Calliope has, that two Nannasprites exist without one dying, and a few other details such as Caliborn stating seeing himself surprised at the Kids appearing to face him using John’s Retcon Powers, means that this is not following the Alpha Timeline at all by the ending. John’s ‘I’ll do it’ has sparked many theories about this being the conflict that sparks John to want to go back to fight Caliborn, but it has always seemed nonsensical to me. John is depressed, Terezi is looking for Vriska, but for most of the part, they’re happy. They’re content with having gone through the hardships of the Game, and now being able to just live their lives. I could maybe see John using a fight with Caliborn to mask his emotions, but I can’t see him convincing Rose, happily married to Kanaya, that they should go back to beat up the stupid asshole that keeps Trolling him through Snapchat, using his highly dangerous Retcon Powers.

To me, it always felt that this was the result of a Timeline we didn’t see, but may see in the Epilogue, and even though there are ways to make it work, it ties perfectly well to this theme of breaking out of the Alpha Timeline, that by the end of the comic, we wouldn’t even be following the Timeline that spawns Lord English, and rather, the one the John we’re following, seeing master these Retcon Powers, creates following Terezi’s Instructions.

Ironically enough, this Timeline ends as an empty victory for both John and Terezi. John, with his adventure over, and having never seen inclined to even think what he may want to do after it’s over, is now left alone with his thoughts, the trauma he’s went through, and missing his father, while Terezi, who in the Game Over Timeline thought all she needed to be happy was Vriska, realizes that even that is more of a patch for some deeper self-steem issues, and yet continues to try to chase after her around the crumbling Paradox Space for no avail for years.

It’s my belief, when the Epilogue comes out, that we will see a distinction between the Timeline in which John reaches Earth-C, and the one in which they all go to Caliborn’s Masterpiece, as well as have Terezi return to Earth, not with Vriska, but with Davepeta, Sollux and Aradia, who are still potentially alive and out there. But that’s mostly because I don’t think Vriska should survive the encounter with Lord English.

Vriska herself, in this case, climatically becomes what she’s always wanted to be, the protagonist, only by her desire to be as such. She treats the Game of SBURB like a Game, and similarly, she treats Homestuck like a Story, a Story in which she wants to be seen as the Heroine. Not for Noble or Heroic reasons, but merely for the hell of it. She becomes the perfect Counterpoint to Lord English- The man who set the Alpha Timeline, whose existence jeopardizes the entirety of Paradox Space, the unseen, mysterious hand behind every event. Lord English becomes the Villain of the story, and Vriska takes advantage of it. A story needs a Villain and a Protagonist, and with John more focused in his Friends than the Big Bad, she steals the role for herself, which would make seeing her never actually return, all the more fitting. Act 7 is the Finale. It’s the End of the Alpha Timeline, the End of the Story that is Homestuck. So of course, once the curtains are drawn, both Villain and Protagonist are out of the picture entirely.

[blaperile]

Homestuck Candy Epilogue - Reactions Pages 13 - 16

Page 13:

Holy SHIT. I totally agree with Dave, this feels like straight out of a horror movie.

What the FUCK is Gamzee doing over there? Does Calliope have anything to do with this, seeing as he was sticking by her side all the time, earlier?

I mean, jesus, didn't Dave come straight from John to here? He couldn't have been far behind Gamzee, who was only just there at John and Roxy's date.

And man, what the hell happened to Dirk? From what Gamzee's saying it seems like he might have left this reality behind somehow. Did he go to the same place wherever Meat Dirk is also headed to?

It seems like Gamzee is on some deep shit again, somehow. How does he know about the stuff with the black hole and what's behind it? Did Dirk tell him about all that? Or did Calliope? Or does Gamzee know it from somewhere else?

Welp, so there's the robot Dirk had been building for Rose.

And of COURSE it ends with a note to Dave. When is Dirk/Bro ever NOT about notes?

The question is... what's in it? Does he explain something? Or... is he asking Dave to also come to where he's gone?

You know, I was almost expecting Dave to find Dirk's dead body in here, but apparently not.

This page just goes to show much of an impact Dirk/Bro keeps on having on Dave. It's like he's left a splinter behind in Dave's mind, like he has his own Brain Ghost Dirk just like Jake or something.

Page 14:

..........WELP.

THAT....SURE JUST HAPPENED.

Looks like he went for the suicide after all. :(

And of course, no way for him to go out but with a decapitation...

I just wonder... what is this last act of relevance he meant? Is he "transferring" his soul to his Meat version, or something?

Or is he trying to set someone (Dave?) in this reality on a path of relevance due to his suicide and/or the note he left behind?

I wonder what even is in the note... did he explain why he'd commit suicide? Or is it about something else?

abundantChewtoys has a good point about the similarity to where Meat Dirk ascended the tower, and Alternate Calliope was trying to slow him down. And where it seemed like he was going to shoot Karkat... but instead he shot Jade.

A pivotal moment where it seemed like a murder was going to take place but it wasn't. And now it was a suicide.

What intrigues me the most here is that Dirk became "you" in here... the first character in the Candy Epilogue to become that.

Is someone (Calliope???) pulling strings on Dirk here or is this really entirely his choice?

Man, I wonder what the rest of this Epilogue is even going to be like... everyone's going to be totally shook by his suicide, right?

Especially Dave... this won't be good on him at all. He's going through such difficult times right now, and felt he needed Dirk to get out of it, and now Dirk's gone...

I wonder what Dave's first reaction is going to be... is he going to try to use his Time powers to undo Dirk's death? Is he going to be STOPPED from doing that, through narration?

You know... what with how Candy Dirk considering his existence in an unessential timeline completely pointless and committing suicide provides a very interesting perspective on what this means for other versions of Dirk...

First of all, pre-retcon Dirk. He knew he lost, and then just let himself be taken in by the glitches, and was seemingly killed by that. Kinda in that regard.

Next... let's talk about Bro. More specifically... the Bro from DAVESPRITE'S timeline.

Remember how Davesprite mentioned that he never saw Bro again during the 4 months that doomed timeline lasted? What if Bro realized he was in a doomed timeline and also committed suicide over there?

Heck, even Brobot counts. He killed himself to take out his uranium heart, to help Jake out.

Dirk's really got suicide down to a science. He had no problem to kill his real self to awaken his dream self to save his friends.

And when they were on the God Tier crypts, I believe Dirk mentioned something about how he had no problems to commit suicide, but simply didn't want to kill Roxy.

Jesus christ, this guy...

Page 15:

Wow.... WOW.... That was a rollercoaster of emtions.

First of all, I wasn't expecting that we'd be skipping straight to the funeral, but now on second thought I guess it made sense.

It's still left unclear now what exactly was in Dirk's note. From the little they mentioned, it seemed like it was a bunch of words that didn't seem to make sense.

But I guess he DID try telling them about what was going on in his mind, and why he did it?

Secondly, it seems like Gamzee also attempted to tell them... but Gamzee being Gamzee, probably nobody actually understood anything of what he was trying to say.

Still, it seems like Gamzee's been set on some kind of path by Dirk.... The path to the future, where he'd find Calliope/Caliborn? Which I find curious, seeing as at first it almost seemed like Calliope was setting him upon some kind of path!

Speaking of the devil... where in the dickens is Calliope? Pretty much everyone of the characters had dialogue, or was at least mentioned as being at the funeral, in this page, except for Calliope.

Yeah, there's literally no way Calliope isn't up to something, right?

I'd honestly be surprised at this point if she ISN'T the narrator here.

But if she is... why does she seem to be pushing John and Roxy towards each other, and away from her? Is she also planning on doing something drastic? Like, leave this place in the same way Meat Dirk did (not Candy Dirk)?

And if she is, did she actively push Dirk into committing suicide here? Why the heck would she do that???

Or is she just going ALL the way into her "fanfic" persona, writing stories about these characters she loves without involving herself for some reason?

I bet we're going to get some insight into that soon.

Anyway, let's go back a little. I'm happy to see Dave's doing relatively fine, despite everything that's happened, and that he seems to have found his footing with Jade and Karkat. He held Jade's hand in the church, and he was seemingly about to kiss Karkat outside the church.

That's a relief, I feared he was going to be totally derailed by this event.

Also, I actually wasn't expecting John to offer to retcon this event. I had really only been thinking about Dave's powers.

But it makes sense Dave took this decision. It was Dirk's choice and Dave wants to respect it, and that's very noble of him.

It's curious that John is now failing to use his retcon powers. I mean, he did manage to do it earlier in the Candy path, to retrieve Gamzee!

Is it that he's losing the power because of the fact that weeks have gone by since the timeline split from the Meat path? Or... is the narrator simply preventing him from retconning this event?

By the way, this page is an interesting parallel for page 15 of the Meat path. That was also an incredibly long page, in that case it was for the fight against Lord English.

Page 16:

...Oh man, this page is giving me a weird feeling. TIMESKIPS. TIMESKIPS EVERYWHERE. MIXED FEELINGS ALSO EVERYWHERE.

Let's start with the straight-forward part. John and Terezi continue being amazing in their conversations. And I love how Terezi's almost spelling it out for John that she feels like John is her kismesis and it's still going way over his head. xD

She continues being out there... alone. Or so we would think!

It's hinting that Terezi is alone out there, still looking for Vriska in an alternate version of the Furthest Ring compared to what we saw in the Meat timeline... but is it???

We've never seen MULTIPLE versions of the Furthest Ring, only just one. And it's not like Meat and Candy seem to represent two different possible ways for the single timeline to go, it's being hinted that these do co-exist. Meat Dirk and Meat Rose had a look right into the Candy timeline, and Candy Dirk's hinted at John picking the other choice as well.

So what's the deal? IS there both a Meat Terezi and Candy Terezi or is there just one? Is there something this Terezi isn't telling us?

Is this the same Terezi as in the Meat timeline, further down her path where she's already lost John and gone with Meat Dirk? Or what is going on?

ARE we ever going to see more of Terezi here in the Candy path, or is it going to be limited to her interactions with John? That we can only take her word and won't find out what she's actually experiencing, that she isn't hiding something?

So that it's left up to us to decide if this there is only one Terezi, or actually a separate Meat Terezi and Candy Terezi?

Anyway, so John and Roxy are having a baby!!! :O

I already had a feeling that was going down as soon as the timeskip was mentioned, the fact the wedding already happened, and that John truly felt like an adult now.

On one hand I'm so happy about that... on the other hand it still feels a bit wrong. I'm not going to repeat everything I said about the previous page, but it's almost like Calliope is kind of pushing John and Roxy towards each other and completely ruling herself out.

Especially with what Terezi mentioned on this very page, how it seems that things are going so fast between John and Roxy. That makes me even more suspicious that she's explicitly saying it.

I mean, especially with Calliope ruling herself out of the equation, this probably would have happened in a natural way between John and Roxy, but maybe not this fast.

Same thing actually with Dave and Karkat! Like John mentions here, they still seem to be figuring things out, whereas in the Meat timeline Dirk basically forced them together sooner.

It's heartwarming to see that Terezi's gotten back somewhat in touch with Dave and Karkat. After everything they've been through together, they deserve that.

On the other hand... the situation with Jade. That's pretty sad to see that things aren't working out that well with Dave and Karkat there. :(

Also, do I even want to acknowledge what the FUCK that was about Jane and Jake with Gamzee? xD

Let's... let's just assume Jane wanted to try a threesome or something for kicks... Okay I'm going to completely stop thinking about this now. xD

[homestuckexamination]

Homestuck: Time

Since I realized how outrageously long that post I made about Time was, I decided to make a Read More version:

anonymous  asked:

What is Time in Homestuck? What is its function, its purpose, what are timelines, what defines the Alpha and doomed timelines. How do timeloops work?

Time in Homestuck takes from a couple of theories about the workings of Time and Parallel Timelines. So, Time itself doesn’t have any Function, much like in real life, instead, Space and Time are treated as the two main building frames of a physical reality, to the point where the Universe Frog requires a Space and Time players to actually even be possible to be created.

Going in detail though, according to Homestuck’s Interpretation, there’s an Alpha Timeline that marks a path that must be followed, but there are alternate realities, sometimes required by the demands of the Alpha Timeline itself, where divergent Choices and Actions from the various characters have led to a deviation from this path that needs to be followed. A Time Loop is nothing more than ensuring no Paradoxes are created while following this Alpha. For example, according to the Alpha Timeline, Lil Cal ends up in Jack Noir’s possession, and eventually is shot through a meteor portal into Alternia. This is a stipulation that must be followed, so in the Timeline where John dies because Terezi sent him to see Typheus early? We learn with John’s ghost, that Typheus didn’t actually just insta-murder him, he gave him a Choice, to Die for the benefit of the Timeline. The thing that doomed the Timeline wasn’t John dying- It was Dave prototyping Lil Cal. Davesprite needed to exist, because without Dave preventing Lil Cal from being prototyped, Lil Cal would become a sprite, and thus never get to Alternia. This is the kind of Paradoxes Stable Timeloops want to avoid, and the reason this Timeline leaves behind a Doomed Rose. We see in a couple of occasions, Daves dying when a Time Loop is broken- When Dave screws up Time-Travelling, he creates an offshot Dave that doesn’t become ‘future Dave’, instead it’s its own iteration of Dave unrelated to the Alpha Timeline, and as such, Doomed to die. Davesprite manages to become un-Doomed by Prototyping himself into Davesprite, and thus becoming an integral part of the Alpha Timeline, rather than a Doomed Version.

Of course this still leaves the question of what the Alpha Timeline itself is. After all, we see dead God Tier Trolls, implying that actually becoming god-like is somehow not Alpha, and thus rendering the explanation of the Alpha Timeline being the ‘best’ or ‘most beneficial’ path impossible. No, in fact, the entirety of the Alpha Timeline is filled with Death and Suffering and awful things and characters being erased off the story.

This is because the Alpha Timeline is, in reality, a Time Loop that favors the Lord of Time, Caliborn. All the Alpha Timeline does is ensure Lord English is created and does what he does in the story, after all, he IS the Lord of Time, and he Commands Time itself. Paradox Space bends to his will.

[S] MSPA Reader: Mental Breakdown is a quick example of one of the Alpha Timeline’s most important devices- Lil Cal. A Juju which contains the Essence of Lord English, and needs to follow an EXTREMELY specific path to reach where it needs to reach, dividing in two at one point to become an Entry in Caliborn’s Land, through which he spreads his influence, and in which he eventually becomes trapped, and an Exit in the Lil Cal Dave has, which eventually ends in Gamzee’s Possession, and is ultimately used to convert Jack Noir into a Proxy for Lord English.

Everything in Alpha Timeline is delicately crafted to eventually lead to Caliborn’s Rise. Lil Cal is not just the Entry and the Exit, the Vessel for His Soul, it’s also the only reason why Caliborn manages to achieve full, unconditional Immortality. When he reaches Yaldabaoth’s Boon, he uses the Juju Breaker Crowbar to obtain Inconditional Immortality. Crowbar which he’s had since before he actually met ‘Crowbar’ from the Felt. Crowbar which was gifted to him by Gamzee of all people, the Troll who raised Calliope and Caliborn. Gamzee needed to be there to raise the twins, and he offered the tool that would eventually grant him Immortality. And how did both Gamzee and the Crowbar get to Caliborn? Through the Black Hole created after killing the Jack Noir possessed by Lord English through Lil Cal. Black hole which ALSO absorbed a majority of LOTAK, including its core, where the Denizen Yaldabaoth himself was, making it seem like everything relevant to Caliborn’s Session arrived there in the first place only thanks to Lil Cal.

Similarly, even the God Damn Retcon favors Lord English, even though it seems like a Canon-Breaking tool, even though it seems like something meant to bypass the Alpha Timeline in the first place, it’s actually a necessary tool for Lord English’ creation- Without the Retcon Powers, John would’ve never reached Caliborn’s Masterpiece, becoming stuck in the House Juju with the other three Betas. He wouldn’t have led the Kids that would, in turn, defeat Caliborn and suck his Soul, ARquius’ Soul and half of Gamzee’s into Lil Cal to create the amalgam known as Lord English. And without the Beta Kids stuck in the House, it would’ve never been filled in, and thus become the double-edged sword that would eventually cast Lord English into the Breach.

But of course even the Retcon favors Lord English- After all, he kills the Author. Caliborn interacts with Hussie through the Command Prompt, and physically smacks the website around on several occasions, as well as glitches the cartridge containing the data to continue the story. Doc Scratch and Vriska seem to be the only other characters in the comic to even be aware of the existence of Hussie as the Narrator- With Scratch being part Lord English, and Vriska literally getting angry at Hussie for switching the narrative just as she was about to reveal the House Juju, and tearing it back from him to show everyone what was in the Juju Chest. A Villain that messes with the Narrative itself would definitely still benefit from a tool meant to break the narrative. And in the same way, when the Villain of the Story has control over not just Reality, but the direction of the Narrative, the only two that can oppose it are a Character who Knows they are in a Story and Wants to be the Protagonist, and a Protagonist who Can Alter the Narrative and just wants to be Happy.

As such, Homestuck takes the idea of ‘parallel timelines’, and throws us a scenario in which an evil entity has basically overwritten Free Will through imposing himself in a very specific path, so if I had to give a short answer to the question of what “Time” and “The Alpha Timeline” is? I’d have to answer, The Alpha Timeline is Homestuck in itself, both the story and the struggle of the characters as they navigate through it.

( From this point downwards, these are my THOUGHTS and opinions, and may not reflect what’s strictly Canon or what may happen in the future )

This ties in to my thoughts on why I think Act 7 is good, contrary to what many in the Fandom seem to believe. We’re shown Caliborn’s rise to immortality, the beginning of his journey towards becoming Lord English, and eventually becoming the big villain of the story, contrasted with Vriska inserting herself in the role of the Heroine, even though everything was already set in the story for this exact same culmination and all she did was take the spotlight by opening the Juju Chest, and the Release of the Kids from the Alpha Timeline to live in Earth-C, free of the influence of Lord English, of the grasp he’s had on their choices and their existence.

Already at the very beginning, John himself states it clearly.

It is your thirteenth birthday, and as with all twelve preceding it, something feels missing from your life. The game presently eluding you is only the latest sleight of hand in the repertoire of an unseen riddler, one to engender a sense not of mirth, but of lack. His coarse schemes are those less of a prankster than a common pickpocket. His riddle is Absence itself. It is a mystery dispersing altogether, like the moon’s faint reflection, with even one pebble of inquiry dropped in its black well. It is the most diabolical riddle of all.

When the Kids cross the threshold of the Door to the new Universe, the story ends canonically, because they’ve escaped the Time Loop known as the Alpha Timeline, they’re beyond English’ Realm. They are no longer Stuck, and they’re free to make their choices without fearing the creation of an offshot Timeline or worrying about what may happen in the future.

It’s my belief that the fact we see Caliborn with the Ring of Life Calliope has, that two Nannasprites exist without one dying, and a few other details such as Caliborn stating seeing himself surprised at the Kids appearing to face him using John’s Retcon Powers, means that this is not following the Alpha Timeline at all by the ending. John’s ‘I’ll do it’ has sparked many theories about this being the conflict that sparks John to want to go back to fight Caliborn, but it has always seemed nonsensical to me. John is depressed, Terezi is looking for Vriska, but for most of the part, they’re happy. They’re content with having gone through the hardships of the Game, and now being able to just live their lives. I could maybe see John using a fight with Caliborn to mask his emotions, but I can’t see him convincing Rose, happily married to Kanaya, that they should go back to beat up the stupid asshole that keeps Trolling him through Snapchat, using his highly dangerous Retcon Powers.

To me, it always felt that this was the result of a Timeline we didn’t see, but may see in the Epilogue, and even though there are ways to make it work, it ties perfectly well to this theme of breaking out of the Alpha Timeline, that by the end of the comic, we wouldn’t even be following the Timeline that spawns Lord English, and rather, the one the John we’re following, seeing master these Retcon Powers, creates following Terezi’s Instructions.

Ironically enough, this Timeline ends as an empty victory for both John and Terezi. John, with his adventure over, and having never seen inclined to even think what he may want to do after it’s over, is now left alone with his thoughts, the trauma he’s went through, and missing his father, while Terezi, who in the Game Over Timeline thought all she needed to be happy was Vriska, realizes that even that is more of a patch for some deeper self-steem issues, and yet continues to try to chase after her around the crumbling Paradox Space for no avail for years.

It’s my belief, when the Epilogue comes out, that we will see a distinction between the Timeline in which John reaches Earth-C, and the one in which they all go to Caliborn’s Masterpiece, as well as have Terezi return to Earth, not with Vriska, but with Davepeta, Sollux and Aradia, who are still potentially alive and out there. But that’s mostly because I don’t think Vriska should survive the encounter with Lord English.

Vriska herself, in this case, climatically becomes what she’s always wanted to be, the protagonist, only by her desire to be as such. She treats the Game of SBURB like a Game, and similarly, she treats Homestuck like a Story, a Story in which she wants to be seen as the Heroine. Not for Noble or Heroic reasons, but merely for the hell of it. She becomes the perfect Counterpoint to Lord English- The man who set the Alpha Timeline, whose existence jeopardizes the entirety of Paradox Space, the unseen, mysterious hand behind every event. Lord English becomes the Villain of the story, and Vriska takes advantage of it. A story needs a Villain and a Protagonist, and with John more focused in his Friends than the Big Bad, she steals the role for herself, which would make seeing her never actually return, all the more fitting. Act 7 is the Finale. It’s the End of the Alpha Timeline, the End of the Story that is Homestuck. So of course, once the curtains are drawn, both Villain and Protagonist are out of the picture entirely.