#this is also why I love mdzs

[roseofcards90]

I truly love your turn to die because it really shows the experience of older siblings having guilt because they fucked up and younger siblings feeling guilt at the fact that their older siblings have guilt to begin with

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

Trapped in a vicious cycle of pining? Try gay sex! (More things to learn over at Tiger Tiger!)

[captainkirkk]

I want to see characters being taken care of in an explicit and worshipful way. Home-cooked meals. Hair brushed and braided by gentle hands. Little gifts just because.

I want to read about characters who are not used to kindness being bombarded by acts of service. This trope works romantically and platonically. Give me found family and acts of service - all the ways a character is wrapped up in wordless, explicit care after years of cruelty and having no idea how to handle. I need it.

[benevolenterrancy]

finally in the process of reading the Guanyin Temple scene and holy shit if WWX isn't the protagonist of all time. We're in the Big Final Confrontation and so far my man has done fuck all except cuddle in LWJ's lap while everyone else is losing their shit and when he DOES finally do something he summons an army of naked, writhing, moaning sex corpses that even his allies just desperately wish Were Not There. stupendous, no notes

[lavender-phoenix-flames]

Wei wuxian: the protagonists of all time

One of the many things I love about wei wuxian is that how great of a protagonist he is (quite a long post) :

Wei wuxian is introduced as a villian that gets resurrected but as the story progresses we see that he is actually a naturally heroic person, who did his best to do the right thing and survive the unfair, unjust and classist system.

He is very self aware, confident, charming, charismatic, handsome and competent. He has a very healthy self esteem, high emotional intelligence and he is a renowned genius, a prodigy. He is also amazingly observant, perceptive, a logic driven person, a quick thinker. He is so calculated in everything he does and reasonable too. He isn't impulsive or reckless rather he thinks all his actions through, considers the consequences and then takes action. He isn't oblivious either (anyone who thinks otherwise go read the book again).

Above mentioned traits are something you don't usually find in protagonists that often and it's refreshing to see a character so greatly skilled and intelligent in all ways yet so humble, sweet, kind, free spirited, full of life and selfless (selfless not self sacrificing). Usually any other character with his level of greatness would have been arrogant about it, but wwx is different. He has not only attempted the impossible but successfully achieved it, not once but multiple times, yet he knew his limits and shortcomings well, even when he was the strongest he never thought himself invincible/omnipotent, he never thought anyone above or below him.

He is so misunderstood both by the world he lives in and the fandom. Being orphaned at a young age, surviving living on the streets, being raised in a abusive household, scapegoated, backed into the farthest corner, having being into worst of situations, where his beliefs, his own life and life of his loved ones are threatened, having limited options where it is either forsake yourself or other innocent ones, he chooses the former. It isn't self sacrificial if he didn't have any other option, cuz other option is just betrayal of his self and morals.

And at the end he is just as human as any of us if not more. He has his flaws, his trauma, his sufferings, his dark days and moments where he wasn't himself but he never let it hold him back, dictate his life. He seeked revenge on those who wronged him, even in his darkest days he knew the limits of violence he can commit. Never regretted any of his actions, if he did he moved on quickly.

At the end there really isn't anyone like him, he isn't perfect but he is ideal, he is someone who we should learn from and strive to be. For me this is how an ideal protagonists should be, not only is he lovable, admirable, and deserving of immense respect, he is someone we can all be, it isn't impossible.

[mxtxfanatic]

The return of Wei Wuxian after his 3-month disappearance is meant to evoke this terror and sense that something is wrong, and it definitely does, but like…

Do you not see the playfulness in which Wei Wuxian handles the ghoul child mirrored in how he later handles A-Yuan in the Burial Mounds?

A white child squatted by his feet. Like a young, carnivorous beast, it was gnawing on something that Wei WuXian fed it. Wei WuXian took his hand away after patting on the white ghoul child’s sparse-haired head.

—Chapt. 62: Evil, exr

Lan Sizhui replied, "I'm not sure either, just that when I saw Chenqing, I thought that it was extremely familiar......" It was unsurprising that it was Chenqing that made him remember. Wei Wuxian said, "Oh, of course you'd find it familiar, back then eating Chenqing was your favourite habit and you would drool all over it and make me unable to play it."

—Chapt. 111: Wangxian - Everyday Means Everyday, chiaki_himura

Do you not see the gentleness in which Wei Wuxian handles the blue-faced woman mirrored in how he handles Wen Qing when he takes her to the Qiongqi Path labor camp?

When she had been fighting, her face was almost hideous, but now, with her dark face against Wei WuXian’s lap, she somehow seemed to be a charming concubine, obediently pleasing her master. Giggling laughter came from her mouth as well. Wei WuXian sat leaning to one side, his right hand stroking her soft, long hair over and over again.

—Chapt. 62: Evil, exr

The shock that Wen Qing received was too strong. Finally, she couldn’t hang on any longer and passed out. Standing behind her, Wei WuXian caught her without saying anything, letting her lean onto his chest.

—Chapt. 72: Recklessness, exr

And then they both go on to reciprocate that care via over-protectiveness, even when Wei Wuxian isn't actively controlling them:

The curvature of Wei WuXian’s lips dropped slightly as he glanced at him. Jiang Cheng had also heard the dissonant tone, “Second Young Master Lan, what do you mean by this?” Lan WangJi’s eyes were glued to Wei WuXian, “Answer me.” The ghoul child and the blue-faced woman began to stir. Wei WuXian turned around and looked at them. They backed off slowly, reluctant, and sunk into the darkness.

—Chapt. 62: Evil, exr

After reading the entire novel and seeing how he maintains this same level of care towards everyone he has no antagonistic relationship with, alive and dead, how could I not be moved when circling back to reread this moment?

[violetscanfly]

Once again I offer you art that I didn't post when it was made✌🏻 One thing I have learned is to never throw away your art because even if you don't immediately like it you might some day

[factsilike]

My first impression of LWJ: "Oh god, not another one of those broody, cold asshole CEO-type of Male Leads, is it??

Me after reading the novel several times: "I'M SO NORMAL ABOUT THIS GUY. HE'S SO SO GOOOD!!!! GHFGGFHDSETYGFDGG BEST PARTNER, BROTHER, FATHER, BEST EVERYTHING-"

Seriously, the way he struggles with his perception of wrong and right and what he's been told all his life is the right thing versus what he's been shown the right thing is, the way he loves and yearns so deeply but is just as determined to not trouble his love interest with his desires, lest he feels obligated to reciprocate out of (God forbid) gratitude or a sense of debt, the way he grows and learns from his mistakes and becomes a better man in a way that few characters in the novel, or in general fiction, do and is so, so righteous. (Growing up is not easy! And he had a lot of that to do before he could become a partner to WWX, because he didn't exactly treat him as an equal. But he does, and I love that so much!)

[archiveoftragedies]

In mdzs, when the public opinion started shifting and everyone turned on jgy it made me feel vindicated. Finally they're siding with me against the guy that keeps pissing me off. But that only lasted an instant. Slowly, progressively, I started going wait. Wait no hold on. Go back. I didn't mean it that way go back. Because they were saying about jgy the exact same bullshit they had been saying about wwx the entire novel. And suddenly it felt really off.

Then, during the flashbacks leading up to Nightless City, I kept thinking back on that thing wwx tells nhs in volume one, when nhs explains his family's solution to their haunted saber problem. "Well, that's hitting a bit close to the demonic cultivation path". Doesn't nhs refuse to swordfight as well? Is he even carrying a sword? How come he can get away with this (and wwx can't)?

Wwx and jgy have similar origins but were raised in different environments. They learned similar survival methods and tried to play by the rules up until they couldn't anymore. They had the two more prominent roles in winning the sunshot campaign, and yet everyone forgot about that the second they decided they were irredeemable. They met similar ends, fighting and protecting people they loved.

Nhs became the kind of person his brother would despise in trying to avenge him. He became like his brother's murderer. His survival method is also trying to make himself seem harmless, not with polite smiles or clever distractions but with tears. The only reason he didn't meet the same end as the other two is that he managed to stay out of the public's eye, and because his reputation was unstained from the beginning. Although I should note that he is Nie Mingjue's half-brother, which might hint at a more complicated heritage, more similar to that of the other two, than one would suspect at first glance. But whether that's the case or not, the point is that nobody would call nhs a bastard, and that means that people will overlook certain things he does that have condemned the other two to death.

That's what makes them such great narrative foils. In the end all three of them are cheating, but nhs had better cards to begin with.

[khattikeri]

i don't think enough people talk about how the backbone of nie huaisang's plan hinged heavily upon jin guangyao's low birth, and the jianghu's willingness to dogpile on such people.

nie huaisang is upper class. he's specifically stated in the novel as behaving more like the idle rich than like a distinguished second young master of one of the five great cultivation sects, but he's still an heir by birth. even if nie huaisang had been more openly caught, who would do anything to him?

wei wuxian notices that bicao's testimony was bought with a few shiny baubles— that nie huaisang was the one who bribed her with a nice bracelet for her testimony. he intentionally kept his own sect half dead, barely afloat for years, just to keep up the guise of an incompetent loser!

but the only actual consequence he's faced for such poor leadership that probably hurt a lot of common folks in his territory over 13 years is that people think nie huaisang is an annoying, useless crybaby. nie huaisang has a level of protection from consequences that jin guangyao had to fight much harder for (and that jin guangyao ultimately never truly got).

nie huaisang knew his own class and social position extremely well, and he knew how most people of that position behave and think. he was more than willing to use this in his revenge.

we know lan wangji is the type to use his wealth and position to do good for others. nie huaisang is the opposite— he's the type to use his wealth and position for himself and his own personal goals.

and this wasn't just something that started after his brother died! avoiding responsibilities, never carrying his sword, ignoring the fact that he wasn't honoring his sect or ancestors the way others wanted… his underground ring of selling porn as a teenager even got him out of the worst part of the wen indoctrination camps, because he bribed the wen cultivators overseeing everyone else.

my point is, nie huaisang is self-aware enough to know he doesn't really ever do the "right" thing! at no point in the story does he delude himself or others with grand ideals of how one ought to behave. he doesn't care.

unlike almost every single other upper class cultivator in the story— jiang cheng, jin zixuan, nie mingjue, lan xichen— who all think of themselves as righteous in a way, who are always able to justify their thoughts and actions, rarely if ever able to conceive of those thoughts and actions as flawed or wrong... nie huaisang KNOWS his own selfishness.

like lan wangji, nie huaisang recognizes that his class can easily be used as a shield to do whatever he wants. while lan wangji at worst uses this nifty privilege to silence people he doesn't like, refuse to explain himself in inconvenient situations, and bring wei wuxian along with him everywhere, nie huaisang uses it to shirk his duties for decades and tear jin guangyao apart in revenge.

jin guangyao being the son of a prostitute automatically amplifies bad rumors around him. bringing to light his incestuous marriage and the gruesome way he murdered his upper class father, however deserved, is obviously going to impact him in a way that someone higher class wouldn't be as hurt by. combining that with a final lie to get his sworn brother to stab him in a flash of doubt, and well...

is that good or righteous or just? no, of course not. nie huaisang doesn't spend any time pretending that his actions were conducted based on morality, or that he "had no choice".

nie huaisang just wanted to destroy jin guangyao, and damn did it feel good to finally do it.

[touchlikethesun]

it just hit me that we have three - count em one two three - canonical instances of wwx calling lwj a "good boy" which like yes, praise himmmm

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

Not beating the allegations.

[First] Prev <–-> Next

[whetstonefires]

I think a part of the reason I feel so connected to JGY and XY is that I, too, think everyone is lying about what a good person they are. Sure, there may be a few genuinely good people, but those are in the minority and never claim the title.

I don't know about never; some people are pretty straightforward.

And in some ways the whole point of the concept of 'a good person' is that the feeling of losing the right to consider yourself one can impose instinctive recoil from doing wrong, in situations where you don't have the leisure of working your way through an ethics diagram and choosing the logically moral path before reacting to a situation. It has practical utility.

But that system can backfire pretty horribly too, in a lot of ways. It can be hijacked by definitions of 'good' that actually make you recoil from ethical acts because they're deviant. It can lead to disappearing up your own ass lmao.

And definitely the threshold for 'talking about how you're a good person' enough that it makes you suspect as either a) a liar or b) someone who values that self-image over objective reality and other people's wellbeing is. Not very high.

Jin Guangyao, ironically, is one of those people who's so performatively A Good Person in his public life that in retrospect it looks like a red flag. Which knowing this about himself in an ongoing fashion ofc just reinforces his own cynicism about everyone else lmao.

Even Lan Xichen, who I think he may see as a genuinely good person, he also sees as an easy mark who will reliably choose what is comfortable over what is 'right,' if you just structure the scenario to make that an easy choice that's easy for him to justify.

Xue Yang's bitterness is in many ways more exciting than Jin Guangyao's because he has a way more unusual relationship to reality, but it does share a lot of notes.

The role of deception in his psychology fascinates me because as far as I can tell he's as instinctively straightforward a person as Lan Wangji, albeit along quite different lines involving a total lack of impulse control, but has adopted 'deceit' as a weapon against the wicked world in the same way he has adopted 'murder.'

But when he feels someone is not merely lying but papering over bad behavior with principles they are not living up to he is livid.

People claiming to be better than him because they're 'good' when 'good' is a construct of privilege, is the underlying idea he's not equipped to articulate. Except he takes that and applies it to 'hitting me to interrupt my random murder of some guy who happened to be within arm's reach when I wanted to hurt someone.'

Which isn't like philosophically perfect, but the underlying problem he's actually reacting to is that he understands the social contract as a lie that has never protected him but seeks to control him, while protecting rich men it has no power to control.

Which it is fair to be mad about, but then his feeling is that since that's the nature of the world and all people, he is entitled to amass for himself the power to inflict hurt without consequences as much as he possibly can, and to use it against the vulnerable for fun, and no one is entitled to interfere.

Which brings him to a place where he is violently angry at anyone talking about trying to treat other people well as a value, because either they're a hypocrite and a liar or they threaten his entire system of rationalization for why he can be The Worst and still In The Right.

'Everyone is equally bad, actually' is like, an understandable take for anyone who's had cause to become embittered. Everyone is free to make whatever philosophical peace they can with the world and by and large there's no ethical weight to any such opinion, in itself.

But it's an ideological crutch people tend to wind up leaning on very heavily when they can't or don't want to take responsibility for their own behavior.

Which is an approach that Xue Yang, Jin Guangyao, and Su She all share, and which not only is shitty of them, it...traps them in a wheel of doubling down on their own worst impulses because rather than going 'that was bad and I shouldn't do it again' they've repeatedly invested all this energy into making what they did actually the correct thing, according to their interpretation of the context. Which means they're more likely to do it again.

(I think this is how Jin Guangyao became a serial killer, for example. He followed a doing-a-murder-impulse and then internally doubled down on how he had nothing to be ashamed of, so he was more likely to do it again, every time.

Wei Wuxian's strain of self-righteousness about his revenge was less...thorough than Jin Guangyao's, because he had the benefit of going after people on the opposite side of a war from him while Meng Yao's first known murder plot was against a shitty boss. But it probably didn't help him not try to solve army-shaped problems with mass murder, even after that stopped being allowed.)

If any of them had just like, zero moral sensibilities they would have created very different problems, and very possibly fewer of them. It's making a central goal of your operations 'self-vindication in your own internal narrative, created retroactively via reframing' rather than 'figuring out what I think I should do and trying to do that' that traps them in the self-reinforcing murder pissbaby vortex.

So if you look at it one way, these three villains are themselves perfect examples of how pursuit of the 'feeling of being good' (or at least 'not the bad guy') can make you worse.

Notably Wei Wuxian was also extremely sensitive to hypocrisy in his youth; it was the only part of Madam Yu's behavior he was ever shown objecting to. But he's sufficiently mellow and cynical from regret and burnout by the 'present' timespan after his resurrection to just get disgusted and alienated about it, rather than outraged.

He wasn't even all that mad at Xue Yang, though honestly that may be partly because he stopped entirely characterizing him as a person at some point during their interaction. Like, there's no point being angry at someone whose moral sensibilities operate exclusively on the plane of 'is this unfair to me' for manipulating and destroying people who were good to him, and then getting obsessed with his own self-pity about it. This is not a person who understands how not to be, metaphorically speaking, a cannibal.

And Wei Wuxian did know better and still got roughly the same result, so what business does he have getting angry?

Anyway yeah those two villains are both delightfully relatable if you sit down and put their perspectives together; they are clearly operating with the same basic suite of human needs and emotions as everybody else, without that being in itself particularly exculpatory, which is honestly refreshing. They've just got the most fantastically toxic interpersonal habits that knowing them counts as some level of Suffering A Curse.

Jin Guangyao and Xue Yang do both stand as scathing rebukes of the society that created them. But within the narrative, wherein they're people, the fact is that each of them had agency and one of the things they chose to do with it was develop rationales for why they were the most special little guy and everything was someone else's fault.

And their moral nihilisms, while also grounded in serious trauma, ping me as emotional masturbation of this variety.

[winepresswrath]

hi! i always love your MDZS/CQL takes; can i ask what are the questions you think CQL is asking, as compared to MDZS?

I haven't actually revisited either canon in ages, which is making me nervous. what questions the novel is interested in can be pretty contentious all on its own! @mikkeneko has an excellent answer in the notes here which I reccomend to everyone. My own thoughts are honestly pretty scattered- I keep on deleting things and going hm, that's not quite right.

So, for the obvious-to-me example, people reasonably zero in on the creation of innocent doctors/radish farmers who Wen Ruohan is holding hostage. In CQL it's easy to infer that Wen Qing and Wen Ning are maybe the only cultivators and almost certainly the only combatants among the Wen remnants, and their status is much more ambiguous in the novel, which I personally think is asking, essentially, "and so what? were they wrong to run, when they had a chance? Do they deserve what Jin Guangshan will do to them if they go back? Aren't they just people, actually?" Whereas the question that CQL is asking is more to the effect of "What does Wen Qing owe these people, when she is their only defence? What is she entitled to do to save them, at other people's expense? If she fucks up that moral calculus, what then? Does it matter if she's personally fond of some of the outsiders who are going to get hurt? If one of them saved her brother? Later, this question will flip to what Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng, and the parallel to Jiang Cheng's situation in particular is, I think, genuinely pretty fun. You're giving up the Wen as soldiers who've laid down their arms in exchange for Wen Qing also grappling with leadership and the question of how many horrors she can stand to look the other way on to protect her own people. one reason I keep deleting so much is that a lot cql's changes were motivated at least in part by censorship, which I think we mostly share a general and justified distaste for! but I also think that within the bounds of that censorship the creative team put a lot of work into actually doing something interesting with those changes. Or, for another example- nieyao! There's a much greater emphasis on the nmj-jgy relationship, it's unambiguously very close and they are clearly extremely important to one another, and I think that's because the cql team has a lot to say about love, trust, power, and the ways those things interact, and that reflects back on all of the other relationships in play, including Wangxian. Almost every time, when CQL chooses change a relationship they make the characters in question closer- that's true for Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji, for Wen Qing and the Yunmeng contingent, for Zixuan and Mianmian, and Huaisang and Meng Yao. It's even true for Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian, who have a close and trusting relationship in first life! CQL puts a much greater emphasis on "all right, so you care, what next?" How do you choose someone and then choose to be good to them? What if there's a massive power disparity between you? What if you seriously disagree about your priorities and morals? How do you trust someone who's betrayed you? When is it a stupid choice to trust at all? How do you have faith that you know someone well enough for that trust to be meaningful?

for legal reasons i would like to specify that it's not that mdzs isn't interested in these problems. i do remember wangxian's literal trust fall. cql is asking these questions all the time about everyone. also for legal purposes i'm not suggesting that cql lwj and jc love each other. but! they establish a three month wartime partnership looking for wwx and then jc immediately drops him on wwx's say-so despite apparently having a positive enough opinion of him to tell wwx he thinks they should make up twice. lan wangji will later tell wwx he thinks he should loop jc in on the second flautist! these are people trying to navigate some kind of relationship/shared interest/community, as opposed to a hateful void. cql wants to say hey, how do you go about this? while I'm here and rambling cql also puts a lot of emphasis on wwx's connection to yunmeng and changes things up so instead of feeling alienated right before he leaves our last glimpse of him there is happily picking lotuses and playing with a kid! in both stories the narrative is asking who do you protect? who do you leave behind? can you ever get it back? but the angles are very different.

[last-in-line-for-hell]

// mpreg , pregnancy

There’s something intensely hilarious and fitting about imagining a Wei Wuxian who, as Wei Wuxian does, finds a way to get himself pregnant, only to act like a Harvest Moon/Stardew Valley farmer and go about business as usual. Pregnant Wei Wuxian out in the fields tending to his crops as if nothing was different.