thegrovesystem

[thegrovesystem]

re: your post about plurality as an identity vs how anti-endos see being a system, i definitely think a lot of pro-endos have the idea in mind that having DIDOSDD is just one road leading to systemhood, and other system origins are other roads all leading to the same place. and that systemhood/plurality is an umbrella identity that encompasses similar identities and experiences, like LGBTQ+. but i don’t think that theyre realizing that a DIDOSDD system is going to function completely differently than an endo system, due to the factors of severe trauma being what caused the system. and i also think a lot of them don’t realize that anti-endos typically don’t IDENTIFY as a system, rather than see it as a symptom to a mental illness that they have (myself included), whereas the primary pro-endo argument i’ve been seeing lately revolves around plurality as their identity. like, for me, having DIDOSDD isn’t just one small aspect of being a system, but being a system is a (large) aspect of having DIDOSDD. i also think it’s not a coincidence that so many pro-endos are also white but i’m not sure how to articulate why.

I like all of the above, and don't have much to add. Just that this is exactly what I saw in pro-endo spaces.

[thegrovesystem]

Do you have any, like, lists to misinfo endos spread that can hurt OSDDID systems? I consider myself endo neutral but I kinda wanna do like…a sweep of our thoughts about our system to make sure we’re not carrying anything dangerous, if that makes sense.

Hoo boy.

First off: Anyone in the communities, please feel free to reblog with your own examples. I'm just gonna go off what I've experienced / know about. Also, fair warning, some of this list may be references to trauma.

Malicitors aren't a thing. That's the "evil alter" brand of Persecutors, and it demonizes them to call them Malicitors.

No, switches in OSDD/DID do not always come with energy boosts. I believed this wholeheartedly when I joined pro-endo communities, and crashed my car thinking I would be able to stay awake while driving if I just switched enough.

System hopping is a manipulation tactic, full stop. It is not possible. Alters are dissociated parts of one personality; one brain. Those parts can't hop over brains!!!!

DID/OSDD only form due to childhood trauma. The DSM does not have this as diagnostic criteria due to the fact that they would have to literally traumatize children to get a 100% certainty of if childhood trauma is the only cause. Please, endos and pro-endos, stop saying DID/OSDD is not trauma based.

Gaslighting is a term used by many endos and pro-endos to refer to anti-endo discussions. Gaslighting is not the proper word to use any of the times I've seen it used in these discussions. Gaslighting happens over an extended period of time by someone who holds power over you - not a minor on tumblr who called you a cunt.

System is meant to mean System of Dissociated Parts. The language was used by DID Systems before Endogenics co-opted the language. "But system means many other things!" Jesus Christ, I'm not talking about a goddamn computer operating system rn. Stop trying to twist traumatized peoples words to make it seem like we were talking about fucking Windows EP or IFS Therapy.

Disorder means so much more than distress. Many endogenics just want to boil down having a disorder to Always Suffering All The Time. This just, frankly, isn't true in the slightest.

No, hallucinations are not alters. Please seek help for your hallucinations if they are causing you trouble in life.

Systemhood is not an identity. You can not "identify" as a disorder.

System Accountability is a GOOD thing. No, it is not "leashing your alters" to tell them to stop harassing people. Alters are part of you; you (as a whole) need to take accountability for those actions.

The idea of natural multiplicity was popularized through ableist movements to demedicalize OSDD/DID. PluralDeepDive is a great resource to learn more about this topic.

Fictives are not their source. Dating someone from your source just because you dated in source is a bad thing.

Dormancy is not death. Alters do not die.

Switches can be controlled, in some systems (not all), to some degree (not always). This isn't an endogenic thing.

You can learn about your DID as a child. Some people on my blog have even been diagnosed as young as 12 and 13. This does not make you endogenic.

Not remembering your trauma does not make you endogenic.

Good lord I think that's all I can handle for right now. This was exhausting...

[thegrovesystem]

I haven't really seen anyone talk about this but it's honestly so fucking anger inducing how systems (and pwDID/OSDD1/UDD who don't wanna be called systems) have to fight to keep literal medical terms (alter, introject etc) about our literal fucking disorder medicalized and y'know exclusive to our disorders and anything that's a community term is suddenly 'endo inclusive' even if it was literally made for our disorders like I fucking saw someone say fictive was made by endos???

like other disabled people not just systems have to fight against people misusing our terminology we're usually told that the misuse of our terminology isn't that deep because it's "just a joke" or "just a figure of speech" but here in the case of pwDID/OSDD1/UDD it's for fake fucking 'inclusivity' of people who wanna make a serious debilitating trauma response a mogai-esk community and push actual systems deeper into denial and then shame them for wanting trauma survivor spaces when they do actually know that they're pwDID/OSDD1/UDD

I'm so tired of how systems are treated, when we speak out against the ableism we face from endos or even just correct misinformation we're called sysmeds and traumascum. new or younger systems that enter endo communities are bombarded with 'facts' about endos and told that they're endo until proven otherwise, told that anti endo or even just trauma survivor only communities will hurt them and abuse them so they shouldn't ever leave, they're told that anti endos are hateful towards every system and that they're basically the fucking antichrist

I don't usually swear much when talking about syscourse but I'm just so angry

[thegrovesystem]

Icktive

(Half Satire)

Ohh....not you...anyone but you....why this source...not this guy....oh fuck nah ick...

[thegrovesystem]

Fixtive

I'm here just for you bbg... I can fix you 🫦 I was sourced off this guy to be your guide- your big strong alter yuh.

Shitpost term, if you can't tell

[thegrovesystem]

Overyapped (Overlapped pun)

When you're co-fronting as 2 or more alters and get interrupted by another, verbally, mid sentence.

[thegrovesystem]

Pink Flamingos (1972) - dir. John Waters

[thegrovesystem]

We used to be pro Endo and actually thought we were mixed origin...

Turns out we just really didn't wanna accept how bad our foundational trauma was. I was fully entrenched in THAT part of the plural community and it lead to me believing o had a ton of "walk-ins" that in reality were fragments because I was going through a super rough time (teenager in unstable home and family situation at the time) and it did a LOT of damage to my healing journey

before I continue my evil terror I want to say I used to be endo neutral leaning towards pro endo. Then I found out I was an alter. The way plurals talk about systemhood is so.. uncomfortable. And then I started noticing the boundary breaks. The harassment. I know what you guys are going to try with this blog. Fuck you. Until a certain blog can stop breaking boundaries themselves I will not stop.

[thegrovesystem]

how some plurals act when you are an actual person and don't define your systemhood by supporting everything they do

[thegrovesystem]

queer system call us a fruit salad

[thegrovesystem]

"well it's obvious this person is faking being part of a system LOOK! the way they draw one of their alters is super similar to an old OC they had!!" hey man so. I don't really know how to explain this to you but the way the brain works. is that anything your brain creates. FOR EXAMPLE an ENTIRE INDIVIDUAL. will usually draw from things YOU PERSONALLY KNOW. and that are PERSONALLY SIGNIFICANT TO YOU IN SOME WAY. "why doesn't this so-called system have a 30 year old bricklayer called bob in their system" that person is a queer teenager heavily invested in the alt fashion community. bricklayer bob is not in any way relevant to this person's life. why would their brain form an individual like that when it is not significant at all to this persons experiences or memories. shut up shut up shut up stop making the lives of traumatised strangers harder I'll EAT YOU

[thegrovesystem]

You can't just call everyone who encourages this a troll though. I DID read the comments on that post and, at least when I read it, NO-ONE was calling it out.

Also fuck no, if you're Traumagenic you're more than likely a CDD system, even if you're non-disordered because the way Traumagenic systems form is through structural dissociation. Like yeah maybe you're not disordered because you've healed enough and don't have distress but it doesn't change the fact that what caused the system to form is dissociation.

So no, non-dissociative systems CAN'T have alters. Alters are INHERENT to CDD system experiences.

"endogenics don't use medical terminology"

"endogenics aren't harming anyone!"

Then what in the good fuck is this:

Alters are SPECIFIC to CDD systems. Not whatever fuckass plurality endos have going on. My full take on endogenic plurality may be nuanced but I'm also Anti-Endo in the sense that they keep doing THIS SHIT. It's harmful not only to CDD systems but to themselves because repeat after me:

ALTERS ARE INHERENTLY LINKED TO ONESELF WHEN THEY FORM AND SPLIT. YOU CANNOT "TRADE" THEM AND YOU CANNOT SYSTEMHOP.

ENDOS IF YOU INTERACT WITH THIS POST OR EVEN TRY TO DEFEND THIS SHIT YOU WILL BE BLOCKED ON SIGHT. 🐺

[thegrovesystem]

"endogenics don't use medical terminology"

"endogenics aren't harming anyone!"

Then what in the good fuck is this:

Alters are SPECIFIC to CDD systems. Not whatever fuckass plurality endos have going on. My full take on endogenic plurality may be nuanced but I'm also Anti-Endo in the sense that they keep doing THIS SHIT. It's harmful not only to CDD systems but to themselves because repeat after me:

ALTERS ARE INHERENTLY LINKED TO ONESELF WHEN THEY FORM AND SPLIT. YOU CANNOT "TRADE" THEM AND YOU CANNOT SYSTEMHOP.

ENDOS IF YOU INTERACT WITH THIS POST OR EVEN TRY TO DEFEND THIS SHIT YOU WILL BE BLOCKED ON SIGHT. 🐺

[thegrovesystem]

"Plurality is by and large a vast experience that isn't always based in traumagenic origins and can be part of a spiritual practice"

AND

"System and other related terms should be reserved for plurals who are Traumagenic and/or based on a CDD context, due to the terminology in a plural context being psychiatric in origin, and due to many systems expressing discomfort with non-traumagenic plurals using said terminology"

AND

"If you think your childhood trauma wasn't bad enough to cause your plurality to form, it very well could be. CDD/Traumagenic plurality operates by and large covertly and is meant to hide ones trauma, as such, when someone becomes aware of their system they may try and find other reasons as to why they're there, and some alters may be wired to be unaware/not realize the trauma based origin"

AND

"You shouldn't go trying to dig up traumatic memories on your own to prove your validity, as it will only cause more harm than healing, and could lead to false memories in extreme cases"

AND

"Not everything is plurality, even if it may seem similar at first, and that's ok. It's also ok if you were mistaken about being plural and realize you're not"

Are all valid talking points that can, and should, co-exist. None of these stances should be at odds with each other, period.

[non-traumagenic plurals can interact just be respectful]

[this post was made by a CDD system]

🐺

[thegrovesystem]

Okay, lets play a little thought game. Imagine for a second that we're in an alternate universe where everything is the same, except there's a mental illness that (among other things) obliterates your gender identity, turning you agender. Like it's got a lot of symptoms, but that one's a mandatory associated feature. Nonbinary people still exist in this alternate universe, but the mental illness that makes you nonbinary (MITMYNB) is broadly thought of to be the cause of nonbinary identities, and nonbinary genders are not yet recognized or understood.

Naturally, everyone on earth sees these two groups as being identical. The broader public assumes all nonbinary people to have MITMYNB, it isn't understood how one could be nonbinary without suffering greatly from all of the illness's other symptoms. Some nonbinary people even claim to be happy about being nonbinary, when MITMYNB is known to cause crushing dysphoria and depression over one's loss of gender identity. They're appropriating the struggles of the mentally ill for attention, if they were really nonbinary they would be miserable, they'd be lining up for conversion therapy, (which works sometimes in this universe because it is occasionally an associated feature of a mental illness but causes incalculable pain to those who are nonbinary but don't have it)

Of course, the only thing that nonbinary-gendered people can do is create tightly knit communities and enforce dogmatic validity as a defense against the impossible weight of invalidating wrought on them by people who are, for all they know, in the same group as them. Remember, we know in our universe that "nonbinary" is a gender, but they still don't. Mantras form. You don't need to be mentally ill to be nonbinary, you don't need a diagnosis, there is nothing to be treated, you are valid just the way you are. Which, while it is probably exactly what needed to be said to some people, it ends up further confusing and invalidating people who are suffering from the mental illness. "What do you mean, I am seeing spots and forgetting my last name, I don't want to be valid, I need help, I need community." Screamed helplessly to people who can't fully understand, who believe they're being told that their earnestly held gender identity, their selfhood, is a mental illness. No one wins. This is how I feel about plurality.

[thegrovesystem]

Literally this. I understand the frustration that other systems have when endos call themselves systems and insist that our experiences are similar enough to co-opt our terms. I understand that for many of us it can and often does feel like people roleplaying our experiences for funsies, but it's still not great to fakeclaim, especially since the main purpose of Syscourse is for alternate terminology to exist.

When systems go into Endo spaces and start harassing and fake claiming them, even when they're not using our terminology, it does a disservice. It not only defeats the entire purpose of these conversations, but is also just an asshole thing to do. Don't punish the behavior you want to see, folks.

-Phoenix

Watching other antis get so close to the point, but then turning around and spitting out vitriolic nonsense and missing it is frustrating.

"Endos and CDD systems are not the same and should have more separate language to show that because the current way the word system is used isn't enough to get that across" Good! Excellent! Exactly you get it!

"We shouldn't be lumped together with fakers and roleplayers" ...Dammit. You lost the plot here bud. That's not the point.

The entire point of this argument is to highlight that while there are similarities between CDD and non-CDD experiences, there should be more clear language to differentiate disordered and non-disordered experiences, and just implies that they're just the same kind of plurality from different sources and ignoring the intensity of how CDDs affect a system and how it functions, and implying that they're otherwise identical despite CDDs warping your plurality into something new rather than just a symptom. It's supposed to be acknowledging the reality of non-CDD plurality, not saying it isn't real at all.

Don't demonize others and fakeclaim them while trying to share genuine concerns, it undermines your argument and makes it easier for people to dismiss it as nothing but hatred. It doesn't matter if your point is genuine and reasonable, the second you demonize someone to make it you stop making sense, and just come across as a bigot not worth listening to.

-Kaz

[thegrovesystem]

Hi hi! This is a system blog for us! We follow from @wolfgirlcoven!

🌿About Us🌿

Bodily 25

Collective Pronouns they/them

Collectively Pagan

Largely nonhuman or alterhuman (though we tend to shy away from this term and prefer nonhuman)

Traumagenic System (suspected DID but not diagnosed) of who knows how many tbh

🌿Syscourse Stance🌿

Our syscourse stance could be described as Nuanced, what this means is that we feel that Traumagenic systems and Endogenic plurals need separate spaces and terminology, however shared spaces can be beneficial at times, as can shared terminology

We're open to non-trauma based plurality as a concept, and acknowledge that Plurality in and of Itself can be, and is, a spectrum in terms of how it can come about, however due to the history of the term System (which can be found on @/pluraldeepdive), we feel it should be reserved for Traumagenic/CDD plurals only, along with other terms like alters, parts, multiplicity, etc. when used in a plurality context.

Ultimately the experience of Traumagenic Systems and Endogenic Plurals are inherently different, and to claim that they're the same or similar to the point of using Traumagenic and Psychiatric terms for non-CDD plurality, is immensely disrespectful and does a disservice to both communities.

We also feel that plurality should not be considered alterhuman, as it one - dehumanizes plurals who consider themselves human, and also does a disservice to those of us who are nonhuman by conflating the experience of non humanity with an experience that is in part, due to mental illness, this stigmatizing people like therians, otherkin, and transpecies even more than we already are.

🌿Our Nonhuman stances🌿

Our biggest nonhuman stance is that physical nonhumanity (ie believing ones body is physically, biologically, genetically nonhuman/nonhumanoid) is inherently unhealthy, and encouraging beliefs like this do more harm than good. Comfort doesn't always equal healthy. We say this as we struggled with delusions that bordered on Clinical Lycanthropy/Zoanthropy during our teen years, as did people around us, so we have seen first hand just how bad this can affect people. As such, we ask that physical nonhumans, p-shifters, and the like not interact. This includes clinical lycanthropes/zoanthropes who are actively avoiding recovery/embracing delusions over reality or engaging in p-shifter or p-shifter adjacent communities.

Other than that we don't really give a fuck how people self identify.

🌿Most Active Members🌿

🐺 Phoenix - host - she/they - adult - technically could be considered a holothere on the basis of the "entirely nonhuman" definition, but uses the term Theriowere or Werebeast instead, as to avoid physical/biological nonhuman connotations.

🌌 Xerxes - co-host/protector/persecutor/gatekeeper - he/it - adult

🦅 Eli - trauma holder - he/him - age slider but generally anywhere from (16-23ish)

⚔️ Sly - protector - he/him - adult - fictive

🎻 Zeo - protector/trauma holder - he/him - adult - fictive

🌿🌿🌿🌿🌿

That's kind of everything we have a simplyplural if anyone wants to friend us