enixamyram

[enixamyram]

So painful 😭 Markus was exiled, North died in the revolution and Connor didn't distract Perkins in time so was deactivated before ever making it to Jericho. But the worst was Kara sacrificing herself so Luther and Alice could get through to Canada.

So we all know where Josh and North stand. And I've seen various posts for where people think Simon positions himself. And Markus is down to the player (though let's be real the game clearly wants you to be pacifist with him).

The question I have, if they were in Jericho from the start instead of Markus: How do you think Connor, Kara, Alice and Luther would stand?

I know what I think... But I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks?

[enixamyram]

That’s enough!

[enixamyram]

I’m read one of your playthrough posts (which are an amazing series, you’re doing an incredible job!!) and you commented about Simon on one and how you find him boring. And if you don’t mind, I’d like to expand on that a little.

The issue with Canon!Simon (because let’s be real, Fandom!Simon is a completely different character at this point, on par with Fandom!Gavin) is that he represents neutrality in a game where neutrality isn’t a viable option. While he does represent the ‘middle ground’ between North and Josh, the problem becomes that there is no ‘neutral’ option for you to pick from when making your choices as Markus— it’s Violence versus Pacifism, not Violence versus Pacifist versus Secret Third Option, after all. As you said, on the rare occasion that Simon actually suggests an action, it leads to failure because that is the only other option in a game and POV as polarizing as Markus’s. And because of that, his character is absolutely reduced to ‘he’s just there’ when it comes to the storyline he’s been placed within.

However, what a lot of people miss about Simon - either because they dismiss him as the neutral/failure choice or because they’ve re-invented him as the pacifist he very much isn’t for fanfic/shipping purposes - is that despite being the moral equivalent of a flip-flop for the majority of the second act, he does very much align himself with North and the Violent Path towards the end of the game. There’s a reason why he is her narrative parallel with the Companion!Heart Giving scene, or why he takes on North’s lines if she’s either dead or too busy being Leader. And even in Freedom March, he’s the one that advocates for leaving in the exact same way that North did at the start of the chapter because the pair of them do no see the benefit in Markus’s peaceful march at that point beyond getting everyone there meaninglessly killed— he just says it at a time where the player is actually encouraged to listen to those words, whereas North gets shouted down and told that she’s being hysterical and stupid at the start of the chapter for saying the exact same thing.

Simon represents neutrality up until the point where neutrality is no longer viable within the world he lives in, and then firmly entrenches himself in the Violent Path camp once he finally chooses a side. And that is something that I think a lot of people are incredibly uncomfortable with exploring, especially those within the ‘Simon should have been the Pacifist Lover’ camp. Because if we’re actually going to take an honest look at his character, it’s very clear that Simon’s closest companion on Jericho is North and not Markus. They are constantly agreeing with each other and working together during missions (with a specific shout out to Stratford Tower, where they are the ones that support Markus during the attack on the guards and looting the guns off of them once they’re disabled/killed). They hang out together, they support each other against various oppositional forces, and are shown dying together at the end of North’s Revolution because they’re with each other to the end.

Meanwhile, Markus has a single one-on-one conversation with Simon that only exists if North isn’t available and doesn’t when mention Simon once after he dies, but people completely over-blow the hug as proof that this is the most important relationship in Simon’s life when North is right. fucking. there.

I don't mind at all! I love these kind of discussions!

I completely agree with everything you said about the issue with Canon!Simon. (Especially the part where Fandom!Simon is not the same the character we got in the actual game.) Honestly you worded perfectly some of my biggest problems with the whole "Simon is neutral" arguments. All my personal feelings aside, neutrality is just not an option in this story. Not unless the player wants the androids to just go back into hiding and live out the rest of their "freedom" rotting away in Jericho.

As for Simon and North actually having similar ideals in the end, I will admit, that is something that went completely over my head. But when you point it out, it does seem pretty clear. And it's something I wish could have been explored deeper and further! (Another reason I wish we could have played as North for a bit if Markus is killed/exhiled.)

I feel like a lot of people probably dismiss any possible positive relationship between North and Simon because of one scene: That being that her opinion of Markus goes down if he chooses not to kill Simon at the tower. But personally, I feel like that's another case of people misunderstanding her. They think she's this cold bloodthirsty android who hates all humans but she's not. She's an extremist (obviously) who is fighting for the freedom of her people and genuinely believes dying for the cause is inevitable.

Side note: And you know what? She's not wrong here! There is no path you can take that doesn't involve sacrificing other androids. Ironically the path with the least android sacrifice is the violent path. Which makes it all the more ironic that North is given shit for being willing to sacrifice Simon but Markus and Josh never get called out for a peaceful march/demonstration where they just stand there while multiple androids are shot dead around them... But that's a rant for another day!

Back to my main point, North isn't callous for the sake of it. She truly does believe that Simon's death in that moment is necessary and that it makes him a hero. Above all else, she is a woman who doesn't hesitate to sacrifice herself for Markus because she knows he is needed for the revolution to succeed and not her and she will die willingly if it means saving hundreds of others (just like Simon is willing to do for the same reasoning). This is the thought process she has with Simon's death and she does end up being right because if Simon is caught, he dies anyway and then can be used to send Connor and the humans straight to Jericho. But people ignore her passion and replace it with a cold one dimensional reasoning that she's just violent for the sake of violence.

[enixamyram]

I’m read one of your playthrough posts (which are an amazing series, you’re doing an incredible job!!) and you commented about Simon on one and how you find him boring. And if you don’t mind, I’d like to expand on that a little.

The issue with Canon!Simon (because let’s be real, Fandom!Simon is a completely different character at this point, on par with Fandom!Gavin) is that he represents neutrality in a game where neutrality isn’t a viable option. While he does represent the ‘middle ground’ between North and Josh, the problem becomes that there is no ‘neutral’ option for you to pick from when making your choices as Markus— it’s Violence versus Pacifism, not Violence versus Pacifist versus Secret Third Option, after all. As you said, on the rare occasion that Simon actually suggests an action, it leads to failure because that is the only other option in a game and POV as polarizing as Markus’s. And because of that, his character is absolutely reduced to ‘he’s just there’ when it comes to the storyline he’s been placed within.

However, what a lot of people miss about Simon - either because they dismiss him as the neutral/failure choice or because they’ve re-invented him as the pacifist he very much isn’t for fanfic/shipping purposes - is that despite being the moral equivalent of a flip-flop for the majority of the second act, he does very much align himself with North and the Violent Path towards the end of the game. There’s a reason why he is her narrative parallel with the Companion!Heart Giving scene, or why he takes on North’s lines if she’s either dead or too busy being Leader. And even in Freedom March, he’s the one that advocates for leaving in the exact same way that North did at the start of the chapter because the pair of them do no see the benefit in Markus’s peaceful march at that point beyond getting everyone there meaninglessly killed— he just says it at a time where the player is actually encouraged to listen to those words, whereas North gets shouted down and told that she’s being hysterical and stupid at the start of the chapter for saying the exact same thing.

Simon represents neutrality up until the point where neutrality is no longer viable within the world he lives in, and then firmly entrenches himself in the Violent Path camp once he finally chooses a side. And that is something that I think a lot of people are incredibly uncomfortable with exploring, especially those within the ‘Simon should have been the Pacifist Lover’ camp. Because if we’re actually going to take an honest look at his character, it’s very clear that Simon’s closest companion on Jericho is North and not Markus. They are constantly agreeing with each other and working together during missions (with a specific shout out to Stratford Tower, where they are the ones that support Markus during the attack on the guards and looting the guns off of them once they’re disabled/killed). They hang out together, they support each other against various oppositional forces, and are shown dying together at the end of North’s Revolution because they’re with each other to the end.

Meanwhile, Markus has a single one-on-one conversation with Simon that only exists if North isn’t available and doesn’t when mention Simon once after he dies, but people completely over-blow the hug as proof that this is the most important relationship in Simon’s life when North is right. fucking. there.

I don't mind at all! I love these kind of discussions!

I completely agree with everything you said about the issue with Canon!Simon. (Especially the part where Fandom!Simon is not the same the character we got in the actual game.) Honestly you worded perfectly some of my biggest problems with the whole "Simon is neutral" arguments. All my personal feelings aside, neutrality is just not an option in this story. Not unless the player wants the androids to just go back into hiding and live out the rest of their "freedom" rotting away in Jericho.

As for Simon and North actually having similar ideals in the end, I will admit, that is something that went completely over my head. But when you point it out, it does seem pretty clear. And it's something I wish could have been explored deeper and further! (Another reason I wish we could have played as North for a bit if Markus is killed/exhiled.)

I feel like a lot of people probably dismiss any possible positive relationship between North and Simon because of one scene: That being that her opinion of Markus goes down if he chooses not to kill Simon at the tower. But personally, I feel like that's another case of people misunderstanding her. They think she's this cold bloodthirsty android who hates all humans but she's not. She's an extremist (obviously) who is fighting for the freedom of her people and genuinely believes dying for the cause is inevitable.

Side note: And you know what? She's not wrong here! There is no path you can take that doesn't involve sacrificing other androids. Ironically the path with the least android sacrifice is the violent path. Which makes it all the more ironic that North is given shit for being willing to sacrifice Simon but Markus and Josh never get called out for a peaceful march/demonstration where they just stand there while multiple androids are shot dead around them... But that's a rant for another day!

Back to my main point, North isn't callous for the sake of it. She truly does believe that Simon's death in that moment is necessary and that it makes him a hero. Above all else, she is a woman who doesn't hesitate to sacrifice herself for Markus because she knows he is needed for the revolution to succeed and not her and she will die willingly if it means saving hundreds of others (just like Simon is willing to do for the same reasoning). This is the thought process she has with Simon's death and she does end up being right because if Simon is caught, he dies anyway and then can be used to send Connor and the humans straight to Jericho. But people ignore her passion and replace it with a cold one dimensional reasoning that she's just violent for the sake of violence.

[enixamyram]

revolution norkus + "freedom or death"

[enixamyram]

perkins: if you take my deal, you and your girlfriend can both live. markus: not true. if i take your deal, she'll kill me herself.

[enixamyram]

(Another sad playthrough. Machine Connor shot Markus who detonated the bomb. Kara and Alice made it to Canada but only thanks to Luther's sacrifice...)

You know what? I feel like Kara should have had fake glasses.

Markus is a one-of-a-kind android and Connor is machine through most of the game anyway but Kara is a standard AX400 escaping through the city. It never made sense that she isn't more recognized when he face is all over. The family whose tickets she keeps at the bus station literally had an AX400 working for them (Markus deviates her at the very start of the march).

I guess we're suppose to believe Kara cutting and dying her hair makes people not recognize her and I can see some people falling for it. But certainly not everyone specifically looking for deviants. So, in my opinion, they should have "Superman'd" her and had her find a pair of glasses to wear. It's not perfectly, obviously, but I feel like it would be something.

[enixamyram]

markus and north watched detroit burn

[enixamyram]

alone with her thoughts

[enixamyram]

north & connor

[enixamyram]

(Kara and Alice were killed by Todd, Connor deviated but then Markus killed him so he and Markus killed one another after a failed revolution and Simon died running away. Speaking of which...)

I'm sure this will be a very unpopular opinion because I know how popular the Markus and Simon ship is but...

I personally find Simon to be an utterly boring character. He's the middle ground guy, the "inbetween" to Josh and North's extremism but frankly that's part of what makes him just so bland. Josh and North at least have passionate personalities and drive that can nudge and influence Markus in his path. Simon doesn't influence at all except maybe to run away during the march. Otherwise he's always just There as an extra body in the crowd of other background androids.

[enixamyram]

(Finished one of the many depressing endings. Had Kara abandon Alice at Jericho, Machine Connor spared Markus after he failed his revolution and North died running from the fight.)

Feels appropriate to take this moment to talk about how I feel like Alice's whole story (including her big twist) would have worked better if child androids were an illegal black market item.

The whole idea of child androids opens disturbing possibilities in a world where androids have no rights and can be used however their owner wants. I mean we saw Alice was being beaten and child androids could be abandoned without anyone batting an eye. There's also worse scenarios that I really don't like imagining...

I think it would have been better if there was talk of criminals making child androids for desperate parents, enough mention to hint and foreshadow their existence, without ever actually seeing one. That is until the Alice reveal when it comes out that Todd had her illegally made to replace his daughter.

[enixamyram]

deviant leader north

[enixamyram]

Another one down! Alice and Kara died at the house after failing to make it to the bus, Markus screwed up the revolution after being ousted from Jericho and Machine Connor killed him after he found cover in the old Cyberlife store.

You know, I think it says something that despite their disagreements, if Markus is ousted then Josh supports North taking over. The question is, what does it say? That Josh truly trusts North's determination to win or that he just really doubts anyone else's ability to, making her a literal last resort?

[enixamyram]

norkus + the romantic ambiance of riot fire

[enixamyram]

(This Time Machine Connor spared North, Markus died at Jericho and Alice stressed out too much and she and Kara died at the camp...)

Minor pet peeve. It kind of annoys me that North has the same backstory as the Traci's. And I mean in how she escaped and deviated. Obviously I have no problem with them both being sex androids and breaking free while they were being rented. But it's off to me that they both strangled the person renting them before escaping. It really is a minor nit pick but could North not have stabbed him to escape? Or hit him over the head with something heavy? Or even just snuck out and ran away without killing anyone?

[enixamyram]

Three years ago, the Lionesses brought football home for England. Last night, the Lionesses ensured that it stayed home! Moments like these make me proud to be English!