katheriensapple

[katheriensapple]

my least favorite (and unfortunately the most common) mischaracterization of belos is when he's depicted as this like. Grumpy Old Man. come on guys belos is not grumpy. he is literally the opposite. he is calm and uncannily sweet, his voice is soft and he chooses his words very carefully. he looks at you like you're a lost animal, with eyes full of pity and kindness so unnatural, you just can't shake off the feeling of something deeply Wrong. and even when he's not playing his character of a Nice Grandpa to get people do what he wants, he's still not grumpy. he is a passive-agressive bitch. he tells kikimora to kill herself with the same soft voice and sweet smile he used to tell hunter that titan has big plans for him. he's like if a mean girl was an old man do you get me

[katheriensapple]

Thinking about how Angrboda asked Atreus if Kratos draws and he laughed and said "no" but we see Kratos' journal and there are beautiful drawings of things he is describing haha

[katheriensapple]

Gregory is sus: A Security Breach analysis

A spoilery leak-informed introduction to why I am doing this - for theorists & hardcore fans

A non-spoilery link to all analysis parts - coming soon.

No spoilers, game evidence only

PART ONE - GAME OPENING

So, from the beginning of the game, Gregory always puzzled me. So much so that I have been building a theory for a whole year based on him being sus.

Join me as I rewatch the game and highlight some things you may have missed.

Today, we'll cover the opening of the game up until the start of daycare. You may think there isn't much to say here but… surprisingly the game opening does a LOT of heavy lifting with setup. So much so that I boldly promise that you'll be given enough to realise Gregory is sus af by the end of this post.

The game's opening never made sense to me. From a storytelling perspective, why would SW have the game open with us in Freddy's room? Out of all the beautiful game settings they could have opened with, you start in a tiny room side room. Things are already confusing. Gregory has mysteriously come from Freddy's hatch - he claims he crawled in there when Freddy was asleep. That was extremely suspicious and my writer's senses were tingling. I had a suspicion that this was a writing technique called "In medias res", where the narrative begins partway through the story in the middle of the action and that this might be a clue in and of itself.

Protip: I highly recommend rewatching the opening to Security Breach before reading this or clicking the accompanying clips. Dialogue tone is extremely important.

The clues

(Covers 1-4)

1: Gregory hiding in Freddy's hatch:

Lets start at the very beginning. Now, what kid in their right mind climbs into a switched off animatronic? Especially after it has been glitching wildly on stage? Most kids would find the prospect terrifying but Gregory seems surprisingly unbothered by it. What or who is he hiding from? What drove him to hide somewhere so dangerous?

The mystery goes deeper though. To solve it, we need to channel our inner Benoit Blanc. Time to play detective:

Gregory claims he got into Freddy's hatch while he was sleeping

However, Freddy was on stage when he glitched. Presumably he was still on the stage when he switched off.

We know from the Fazwatch note 'Party Foul' that Freddy was out of commission for the rest of the day. He missed a kid's birthday party.

This means we have at least several hours between Freddy crashing and the game starting. This presumably means there could have been time where Freddy was out of action/asleep and Gregory could have climbed into him as he said.

When though? Freddy malfunctioned in public view in front of a big audience. There is no way he could have got into Freddy without someone noticing unless no one was around. He would have been stopped by staff. And presumably, Freddy was transported by a staff member back to his own room. When could Gregory have snuck in?

This is where SB fans say 'Simple. He got into Freddy's room and snuck in there'! Now, its possible I am wrong here but I think the game is hinting at that being impossible. Why? The game goes out of its way to tell us Freddy can't get out of his room. His door is locked, requiring someone with a party pass to open it from the outside. If Gregory has no security badges at all, how could he have gotten into Freddy's room independently? How did he get the chance?

This made me wonder if Gregory was lying and covering up how he'd come to be inside Freddy. By its own, this line of thinking is a bit thin but stay with me and you'll see why I made a big deal about this.

Quite the puzzle. Reminds me of the old 'locked door' mysteries! It also raises the question: Was Gregory actually already inside Freddy before he glitched? Could he even be the reason for said malfunction?

2: Gregory's narrative set up:

I also want to point out that we see no hint of Gregory's backstory or how he came to be in the Pizzaplex. Despite being a lost kid in a shut-down Pizzaplex, he isn't upset or scared. He doesn't talk about wanting to go home. From a storytelling perspective, this immediately stood out.

3: Gregory's rude introduction:

Gregory's first line of dialogue is "Shh! WILL YOU SHUT UP?!". Kinda rude for a lost kid, huh? He's scared of Vanessa the Security Guard coming over, sure. But why? If he hasn't at least met Vanessa in passing before, how does he know she is 'trying to get him'? Either Vanessa has shown herself to be a threat to him (which she shows no sign of to the player) or Gregory is hiding something or making an excuse. I also noted that he almost sounds frustrated and annoyed at Freddy for asking questions.

4: NO RECORD OF GREGORY:

This clue is super important! Freddy scans Gregory. He has no guest profile. He then asks for Gregory's name. Freddy proceeds to try and notify the main office and he receives a connection error. Ergo, there is no way that anyone else in the Pizzaplex can or should know his name. Remember this.

5: Gregory makes accusations/deflects:

Omg I titled this clip wrong lol. GREGORY'S REACTION TO VANESSA

Gregory immediately blames Freddy's connection problems on 'her'. "She cut you off", "She's trying to get to me. She's not going to let you call for help until she finds me." The player presumes he's talking about Vanessa.

Freddy responds with "Who? Your Mother?"

I personally think this is the game foreshadowing but that's for another theory.

It's telling that we never get an answer in-game. Gregory distracts by talking about footsteps approaching. This could be read as deflection.

6: G's reaction to Vanessa:

Freddy tells him it's the security guard and 'she can help!. Gregory responds in a panicked way. "NO, NO, I don't trust her." "I don't know who she is but she's trying to get me!"

Again, what is going on here? Think back. Gregory just said he doesn't know her but earlier he 'knew' that she'd cut communications and that Vanessa was after him. Why doesn't he trust her? (At this point, my mind was whirring. Things don't add up.)

Unless, of course, he's referring to a different 'she'...

7: Gregory expresses no verbal desire to exit the pizzaplex:

This fact gets lost in the Fazwatch intro sequence but - believe it or not - it is Freddy who prompts the walk to the main entrance. Gregory says nothing about escaping, leaving or his motivation at all. Why? That's rather plot convenient.

8: Freddy assumes Gregory has a party pass:

After climbing out of Freddy's room via the vents, Gregory tries but fails to open Freddy's door. He needs a party pass.

Freddy says: "Apologies, I assumed you had one already…" Why would Freddy assume this given Gregory didn't have a guest profile? Well, because Freddy knows Gregory could not have entered his room without it. Again, a surprisingly telling dialogue choice.

Freddy sends Gregory to find a complimentary pass in the lobby so he can get Freddy out of his room.

Clue 9: Gregory's dialogue reminds players of Afton:

Party pass achieved, Gregory reunites with Freddy. Freddy says that he has figured out how to get Gregory out of the Pizzaplex and says he'll take him to the main entrance. Freddy proceeds to suggest that Gregory travels in this cakehatch.

Gregory says yes: "But you better be careful moving around, I don't want to be crushed and twisted into a meat pretzel."

This could be taken as innocent fear but… it's delivered a little dryly for that. The imagery reminds the player of Springtrap. And the fear is sort of belated, isn't it? Given he already hid in there earlier.

Clue 10: Freddy's sudden detour to First Aid:

I don't know how else to explain it but Freddy starts behaving quite strangely as soon as he exits his room with Gregory in his hatch. He says about taking Gregory to the main entrance, they need to hurry before the doors shut. Then unexpectedly Freddy announces randomly that "You are broken" and he makes an impromptu trip to first aid despite Gregory's protests that he is 'fine' and they "Don't have time".

The first aid room, as it happens, is located in the Staff-only utility tunnels in a dark room with danger signs and sparking wires. Bit odd, huh? Why isn't First Aid in one of the guest areas? This doesn't seem like a typical place to bring customers.

Plot happens:

As soon as the duo get to the First Aid Station, they are interrupted by Vanessa. Gregory hides while Vanessa tells Freddy off. The following scene plays out:

Vanessa: Freddy! You're supposed to be on lockdown.

Freddy: Officer Vanessa! I do not know how I got here!

Vanessa: Well you totally blew it tonight you know. Your system crashed and you ruined the show. Now Parts and Service have you on reduced power! They said it's a safety precaution. Just one more thing to deal with...

Freddy: I apologize.

Vanessa: Ok... Look, we're like 15 minutes from closing and some kid is sneaking around backstage. If you see anything notify me immediately, I already alerted the others. Now go back to your room.

This is important context and establishes a few things. "Parts and Services" have put Freddy on reduced power, meaning he requires recharging every hour. Additionally, Vanessa at least appears to know very little about Gregory other than the fact that he exists.

Gregory says: "I told you she was after me."

This voice line implies that Gregory and Vanessa have at least had one run in with each other.

Freddy promises: "I said nothing. I will keep you safe. Let's go."

11: Gregory doesn't receive any first aid:

I kid you not, I laughed the first time I realised this. After all the fuss that was made, Freddy doesn't even look Gregory over. They just leave immediately. Is this a plot oversight or a clue?

Unrelated(?) detail you may have missed:

As Freddy and Gregory move through the Utility Tunnels, Freddy explains they link to every area of the building.

Freddy says: Fazer Blast, Monty Golf, Roxy Raceway, they are all accessible to S.T.A.F.F - with high enough clearance of course. Guests are never allowed down here but yours is a... special situation.

This scene provides confirmation that the First Aid Station Freddy took Gregory to isn't usually used by guests. Hmmm.

Additionally, there's another notable piece of flavour text. The S.T.A.F.F bots need security clearance to go around the building. Why? If S.T.A.F.F bots are just generic AI/personality-less robots, why would they need individual security clearance?

It's also worth noting that - as this line is delivered - we pass a scene behind a chain link fence. It is of three S.T.A.F.F bots standing around a broken colleague.

Then, a short walk later, this poster is displayed: "100% of fatal accidents involve human beings."

It feels like Steel Wool might be trying to imply something here.

Plot:

About two seconds later, Freddy draws to a halt because he ran out of power. So helpful. Gregory is on his own again but Freddy promises to direct him via the Fazwatch. Gregory sets off for the main entrance.

12: Animatronic dialogue:

Gregory wanders around a bit and triggers a playable cutscene where Roxy, Chica and Monty begin to chase him.

I'm going to cheat slightly here and use this as an opportunity not only to review their dialogue in this scene but their wandering around dialogue as it boils down to the same point.

During the chase, the animatronics say the following.

Monty: There you are! (Friendly tone, like he's found you after playing hide and seek)

Roxy: Are you lost? (Dry voice, could be read as sarcasm or a genuine question. Ambiguous)

Chica: Lost boy over here! (Singsong)

You can also find the rest of their dialogue text and audio here.

None of these voice lines sound threatening at all. They sound pretty reasonable on the whole honestly. In some cases, they even sound friendly or like they are just doing the task assigned to them as part of a Pizzaplex lost kid protocol. Or directions from Vanny/Vanessa/an unseen force. But whatever is driving them, they don't seem very murdery.

Some patroling dialogue lines that stuck out to me:

Monty: "You can hide but you can't hide!", "Hey kid, come on out! We're only tryin' to help." (That first one… what does Monty mean?)

Chica: "Your family is looking for you.", "Your parents want you to follow me.", "Don't worry, you're safe with me." (How does Chica know who Gregory's parents/family are?)

Roxy: "Why are you hiding from me?", "Hey kid, come on out. We're only trying to help.", "I can help." (Roxy has some more spiteful-sounding dialogue like "Sneak away, little coward" and "Nobody will miss you" but none sound threatening or aggressive)

Plot again:

Gregory escapes but doesn't make it to the door in time.

"How unfortunate Gregory. You missed your chance but there is still hope. You should be able to escape when the security doors reopen at 6:00am. Until then, keep moving and try not to draw attention to yourself, there is another way out. I will help you find it. I promise."

13: Chica knows Gregory's name:

So now, Gregory begins to find a means to upgrade his Party Pass so he can enter the Pizzaplex. During this time, Chica patrols the area.

Hey, remember how I pointed out that:

Gregory has no guest profile?

Freddy couldnt access the mainframe to report his name?

Ergo, there is no way that anyone other than Freddy who can know Gregory's name?

THEN HOW DOES CHICA KNOW GREGORY'S NAME?

Before people say "Vanessa hears Gregory's name through the Fazwatch via Freddy." That scene happened at 2am. This clip is LITERALLY from 12am moments after the door shut. It's several hours before that scene even happens. Vanessa is still calling him 'little boy' and 'some kid'.

How was this missed by much of the fandom? Well, I have a theory. In Matpat's GT live playthrough pre-release day patch, I'm pretty sure Chica has a different set of voice lines. As far as I can see, she also never says Gregory's name at 12am. But on Markiplier's - post patch - playthrough, she says it continuously. There are even different iterations of her saying Gregory's name, one of which is reminiscient of the special voicebox screech used to access the Burntrap boss fight.

This was my jaw drop moment while watching my second playthrough of Security Breach. How does Chica know Gregory's name? In that moment, I 'knew' that Gregory could not be unknown to Chica. He knew more than he was letting on and I was on the lookout for more inconsistencies.

And I realised Chica is super important - after all, Chica's beak has always been lore significant.

14: Freddy's strange response to Gregory's gift magnet:

Gregory goes to find an item with which to 'hack' the Party Pass machine. He finds a 'Free Mystery Gift' box conveniently located in the gift shop. He opens it to find - in his own words "a crappy Mr. Hippo fridge magnet. Lame"

Freddy responds to his magnet disappointment with: "I am sorry, Gregory. I am truly sorry."

He sounds as if someone just died. What is this dialogue? Who says that in response to a kid expressing dismay at getting a character magnet they don't like?!

15: Freddy's tone deaf response to a setback

After this, Freddy directs Gregory to use the magnet "hack" the machine to get a party pass. The machine unexpectedly spits out a Daycare pass instead.

Gregory is dismayed but Freddy says, "That's good news" as if totally tone-deaf. He does not explain WHY it is good news, just tells Gregory to meet him there. It's almost like he is stalling for time...

Are you convinced something doesn't add up yet? Let me know in the comments! I'll add additional notes to this section if anyone has any questions/suggestions/evidence.

Next time, we'll move on to Daycare and the clues will start to add up...

[katheriensapple]

My strange son :D

I hate him

[katheriensapple]

can we take a second to appreciate all the tiny things in evil mortys room in his original home, even just in this shot alone, that really indicate just how different he is from any other morty. look at the plane and the rocket dude. he’s always been himself

[katheriensapple]

Morty Prime & Eyepatch Morty similarities in season 8

Some awesome fans have already pinpointed a bunch of similarities and parallels between the two, lemme add a couple to the pile:

Morty Prime even literally becomes the antagonist lol

Also, while it seems that Eyepatch Morty has kinda been mellowing out outside the Curve, in this season alone Morty Prime is the most violent he's ever been. Not in terms of body count (he's gone on sprees before), but in terms of... cold-blooded non-hesitation.

When Rick was taunting him to make him shoot him with a fake gun during the standoff, when in purge planet, and when he used death crystals to die old with Jessica, when he was trying to get the aged wine, you could sorta tell he was in an alternate headspace, or stuck in a weird mental sinkhole with no way out (in the death crystals one and the wine one).

(here he attacks two unarmed people from behind, just so he could rob them)

(I have a hard time imagining him doing that a few seasons ago)

(it was surreal watching Rick back away from Morty in this one)

It's only been 7 episodes and he's turned more times against Rick than he had done for whole three freaking seasons in the past

P.S.: don't get me started on both Eyepatch Morty and Morty Prime choosing solitude and fake companions once they were Done (Eyepatch Morty his space snowglobe home on the Curve borders, with a robotic butler for company, Morty Prime a cabin in the middle of nowhere, with non-real matrix dogs for company)

[katheriensapple]

Hmmm…this may be too much of a reach, but…did Steven Universe mean to imply that the flawed or decayed structures on Earth were put there by Pink Diamond/Rose Quartz deliberately?

I think the Beta Kindergarten is the biggest potential example. Peridot mentions that while the Prime Kindergarten was super well-planned and organized, the Beta Kindergarten was a messy rush job. Something that had the potential to work, but was too small and poorly run to ever generate worthwhile soldiers. Peridot says that’s because the Beta Kindergarten was built in a hurry to generate extra forces for Homeworld during the rebellion, but…

…what if instead it was meant to generate extra forces for the Rebellion? What if it was flawed and messy and churned out countless off-colors and just one perfect Jasper not by accident, but by design?

If Pink Diamond/Rose Quartz was strong-armed by the other Diamonds into creating another Kindergarten to crush the Rebellion, then it being defective and poorly planned could’ve been a choice made by Pink deliberately.

If Pink planned Beta and planned it poorly on purpose, then the location makes sense. Small, situated in the middle of a desert, poor growth conditions, and terrible organization all make sense from the perspective of a rebel leader trying not to make her cause have to fight any harder.

Plus, where the Prime Kindergarten tore up a beautiful pasture, the Beta one kinda blends into the desert. Obviously deserts are still full of life, but…if Pink/Rose didn’t yet appreciate all of Earth’s biomes, she might not have realized that. She might not have been as worried about destroying an ecosystem by building a Kindergarten there.

Plus...if the gems from Beta came out off-color, they’d have an incentive to join the Rebellion. They’d never fit in or be accepted on Homeworld, so instead of Pink they might swear loyalty to Rose right out the gate.

Maybe I’m attributing too much intent and deliberation and ruthlessness to Pink Diamond/Rose Quartz. Maybe she wouldn’t deliberately create a situation where Gems would be born already hated and endangered on Homeworld. But I do wonder.

[katheriensapple]

Can we talk about Jasper and PTSD?

Her whole character is representative of multiple aspects of PTSD and grief, but one of the more interesting and ignored aspects I LOVE from the show is how Amethyst's whip affects her in Earthlings, specifically.

At this point, she's already encountered Amethyst's whip - but while she was riding corrupted Ocean, and the whip struck Ocean first, not her. She had time to prepare.

She was... really unprepared for it in Earthlings, for some reason. Even though she knew a fight was about to begin, even though she was the one taunting Amethyst, even though she was literally egging the fight on and knew Amethyst had a whip. She was unprepared.

Why? I have two theories, and they sort of overlap:

First - We know agates are used to "terrify" - to torture and subjegate quartzes, in particular. We saw how much Holly Blue scared the Prime and Beta quartzes, even though she seems to be a bit of a reject herself, trapped away on this ship with these "lesser" quartzes. My assumption is that she's not as good at her job as other agates - and therefore, less intimidating than other agates. My biggest assumption is Jasper has trauma from one of Yellow's agates - one much worse than Holly Blue, and much more effective.

Second - They're in the Beta kindergarten.

"They said you popped out of the ground with your helmet on and took out 80 crystal gems before the sun went down."

But we know newly-formed gems are somewhat of blank slates:

So, why, then, would Jasper have needed to pop out of the ground wearing ARMOR BY THE WAY (something I ranted to @silverlining-ships about - she's the only gem aside from Rose who forms defensive equipment from her gem) and take out any amount of Crystal Gems? Why were the Crystal Gems even there? Were they raiding a kindergarten full of disabled gems to try to take them out while they were still fresh and new?

Jasper was born into an active raid on her home, where I can only assume disabled members of her kindergarten were being destroyed all around her. She was born WITH ARMOR ON. So of course, even just fighting in the Beta Kindergarten could be triggering, itself.

But what I really love, and what makes it feel relates to agate training, is how she self-corrects:

Like. This feels very "trained to take a beating" type behavior. Trained to take whips to her gem and face without reacting. Trained to take pain and torture. And pain is literally the ONLY physical sort of bonding she ever gets with anyone, Steven included, after showing us how communal and physically touchy all the famethysts are.

The Crystal Gems are really, truly the monsters of HER story (I love them, but, HER POV), and nobody has ever been that much kinder, it seems. Imagine who she could be with enough love and time.

[katheriensapple]

It’s honestly super important to me with this au that, yes, there was the whole “William seemed so much nicer than Henry so people liked him more” thing, but it’s honestly more than that to me.

They didn’t see him as kind, exactly- they saw him as sweet. They saw him as soft. They saw him as weak.

That’s how my William was always seen, how he always would be seen- by his friends, his family, his coworkers, his colleagues, even Henry. He wasn’t nice, he was so fragile and broken he was viewed as something that should either be pitied or praised. He was cute in the same way a rabbit or flower was cute- domesticated by its own weakness, reliant on its captors to keep it from being devoured.

So of course, no one would have expected the lamb to become the butcher.

[katheriensapple]

Why I’m a firm believer in Willcare

William cares about his kids, but he still abuses them. That is the real horror of their dynamic. It’s why abuse can hurt so much, because more often than not, it’s coming from your loved ones.

I do think when writing fiction, people tend to forget how abuse can be in real life. Media often portrays it in an almost cartoon-villain and unrealistic manner. To state that William loves and cares about his children does not contradict the fact he still abuses them. That is how abusers get their victims to stay, that is why people often can’t escape abusive situations. It really bothers me when people are so against William loving his kids, when in my opinion it makes him so much more interesting. It gives him twisted humanity, and a starting point for his descent into madness.

To me, William instantly has much more depth and is a much more realistic abuser if you factor in the paternal love he has for his children. People seem to think he becomes less of a villain if he is capable of love, but I think the opposite. William is infinitely more horrifying when his abuse takes such a real form. He acts out of his own twisted version of love, and hurts his own children and children of others because “I’m doing this for your own good”.

William being capable of murdering innocent children becomes more impactful if you remember he is also a father to his own children he loves. How is a fellow father capable of taking away other peoples children? How can he not imagine how painful that is? Oh right, he doesn’t have to imagine it, because his own son dies because of his general negligence as a father. That guilt eats William alive and it festers until it turns into hatred and envy towards other parents and other children.

His murder of Charlie would make no sense if his only sole motivation was science, and nothing else. William IS a man of science, but what drives him to investigate and test and build? A fear of death, and fear of the death of his children. To give William human motives, trying to prevent death by giving spirits “life” in a new vessel, it makes him more real. And more real means more terrifying as a villain.

I think the portrayal of William being this stoic, heartless villain is more boring than the latter.

[katheriensapple]

Scylla and Odysseus are monsters Poseidon fears

Suffering: "The one way you'll get home is sailing where he's scared to roam!"

Scylla: "We are the same you and I..."

600 Strike: "You said the world was dark! (Monster!)"

[katheriensapple]

YOU….MONSTER

[katheriensapple]

Ok so we got a bit extra about He Who Remains plan in the finale, and it made me curious as to why he wanted Sylvie there at all. Because like. Last season He Who Remains was all like “I’ve been looking for someone to take over my job and it’s definitely you two” but he’s changed his tune by the season two finale, when he turns around and goes “kill her, and we’ll save what we can.” So, was she always intended by HWR to be just an obstacle in the road, just another step in Loki’s journey, to get him “in the right mindset”? He Who Remains sets up a scenario where it looks like killing her is the right thing to do, and Loki does it, and in doing so, becomes exactly the kind of person who conceivably could have taken over He Who Remains’s life’s work? Was that why He Who Remains wanted her there? To kill him, and set off the chain of events that would lead to the season two finale, so he could guide Loki, specifically, to a final destination? Because he does say Loki is his favourite. But Loki defies him. He can’t, won’t, kill Sylvie, and that’s a factor He Who Remains didn’t count on. His aversion to betraying her forces his feet onto a different path, to thinking outside the box, choosing a path other than the one laid out for him by He Who Remains. Thus saving the multiverse

[katheriensapple]

March 2024 Devlog

Not many previews of the game but very intriguing development information this month!

I'm surprised that this is the month where Nemlei confirmed that Burial's writing is done, especially when she gave the impression it hasn't been worked on in anyway at all. Did she take a break on Decay and wrote that out since October where she announced that, or said that as a way to troll and realized that she didn't communicate properly?

Now the most intriguing is this development map:

It seems that this will be cover 2/3 of the routes that are confirmed to take place in Decay, and there is actually one definitive ending here. It looks like Decay Deadend will happen here, based on the heartbreak and it leading to two failstates. The X part is interesting, and given that it happens later after the potential death game over state of that route, I think means either one of them or both of them gets stuck in the demon realm. Maybe the murder-suicide takes place there, where they don't actually "die", but they are stuck there forever. Or maybe Andrew deludes himself into staying in the demon realm forever in an attempt to leave Ashley.

I think the heart is Decay Romance, especially because it's all but confirmed that the two will try to use sex to distract themselves from their issues. Since it seems the cops going after them happens while they're looking for fake identities, I think their task to get them is longer than they expected, especially since they were under a faulty assumption Six Eyes will help them with that. So regardless of whether Andrew and Ashley tried to reconcile or not, they have to deal with the cops, which ends in getting shot to death if they screw up. This happens in the middle of their journey, which gives enough time for Andrew's one-on-one deal with the demon to get Ashley pregnant and have it happen. That ending is them being in the lighthouse in the demon realm, with Ashley happy and genuinely smiling for once, maybe after the showdown with the demon, which is why there's a possible death at the same time.

The implication that the third route will take place in part 2 makes me think that it is the Decay Friendship, where they have to work even harder to figure out their issues and with less help from the demon because Andrew refused to make the deal. That's why I think it got so big it had to split, they have to do a lot of self-reflection while being on the run. It is entirely possible at the end, they can choose to stay platonic or be romantic and sexual without any coercion.

[katheriensapple]

Something that occupies my mind:

When we think about Odysseus' choice to withhold information and use six men as meat shields, the first instinct is to think that the betrayal lies in something simple like "not trying something else to get past Scylla" or "not being honest with the crew and giving everyone an equal chance to survive or die in the encounter". But the betrayal doesn't seem so bad through that lense, after all, hey, people would have died either way, right? Wrong.

The real betrayal in lying to them isn't just that.

I think the real betrayal is that (by doing this) he took the decision from them to not sail through Scylla's lair at all.

He erased their choice to GIVE UP.

Because Odysseus, more than anything, wants to go home. Wants to get to Penelope and his son.

And as we see in the second half of Mutiny, Eurylochus is tired. He is so done. He doesn't have that drive. He didn't make the choice Odysseus made in Monster, to get home no matter what. If Eurylochus had his own little moment off-screen in the Underworld, seeing all the dead crew members, then it was probably him coming to the realisation that NOTHING is worth sacrificing themselves for, not even to go home. The rest of the crew is probably the same.

So if Odysseus had been honest with the crew or even just his second in command, there's a very good chance that they would have said "okay, cool, we had a good run, but we're done now with the journey. We're settling down on the next nice island we see. Bye". (Because why would you risk that at least six men die for sure, if you can just start a new life somewhere else? Maybe Circe is okay with some new roomies if they promise to behave)

And the only one who would never be able to accept the option of giving up is Odysseus himself. Because being away from home, away from Penelope is slowly killing him inside. (If the crew is starved and driven to madness by hunger, then Odysseus is starved and driven to madness by his longing for his wife)

So yes. He betrayed them. Hard.

But he would never choose anything different.

[katheriensapple]

I WISH Jorge had referenced the part of Luck Runs Out where Odysseus tells Eurylochus to be quiet because I feel like that’s an element missing from a lot of Eurylochus interpretations.

“I need you to always be devout and comply with this /Or we'll all die in this” is important because Eurylochus fails to do it by questioning Odysseus’ words (the bag is NOT treasure, it’s storm) and opening the wind bag and his actions lead directly to the facilitation of the death of most of the crew. I hesitate to say he’s to blame because, well, Poseidon is taking revenge due to Odysseus’ decision, but Eurylochus handed him means and perfect opportunity to do it.

So, after that, Eurylochus obeys everything Odysseus says to do. He takes men to explore Circe’s island. He stays put instead of running when Odysseus goes to rescue him. He follows intl the Underworld despite the fact that “hey this witch is helping us now by sending us to death’s realm, this is definitely not a trick” probably raised some questions. He doesn’t (or at least we don’t see) stray or talk to the souls in the Underworld even though Odysseus ends up doing it. He traps and kills the sirens.

He lights and gives out six torches.

So, if devotion to Odysseus wasn’t enough to save them? If Odysseusnis now using that devotion and trust to get them killed as long as he gets to make it home to his wife? What is he meant to do now?

Eurylochus doesn’t sound… fully there, during the second half of Mutiny. Whether there was divine intervention pushing him or madness or simply the pain of it all, he’s not acting rationally. He just saw six of his trusted men brutally murdered, asks Odysseus to lie and say it was a trick, and can’t even kill him when the truth comes out. Odysseus’ wounds are bandaged! (I’m not sure that he doesn’t actually know where Helios’ statue is from btw, both due to the melody and bc it seems outrageous)

We’re all talking about Odysseus pleading for Eurylochus to stop before killing the cows, but Eurylochus is pleading too. He asks how much longer is he expected to suffer, to push through doubt, to follow the orders. And Odysseus’ first plea is “I need to get home” (later “we can get home”). Let’s not forget Odysseus is selfish and Eurylochus knows that, maybe even loves that, but he’s not just hungry, he’s tired.

When Polites gets the location of the sheep cave from the lotus eaters and takes the men to it, he leads several of them to death and himself to his doom. When Eurylochus stumbles upon the cows, does he remember that? Does he deliberately invoke it?

Killing the cows isn’t about the hunger, not really. It’s about the devotion that was asked of him, the price he paid to learn that lesson, and the pain that silence put him through anyway.

[katheriensapple]

actually y'know what. Eurylochus singing "Ody, we're never gonna get to make it home, you know it's true" and then "how much longer must i go about my life like this, when people die like this?" those lines hit so incredibly hard. they're so raw and human.

this man is wracked with guilt. he's so deeply exhausted. he's completely lost hope; this is his surrender to the tragedy he thinks he's in. (he's actually in a worse tragedy)

he just wants to eat and die with his friends. he's hungry. he's tired. there's blood on his hands. he's lost so much and he doesn't even sound angry at Odysseus for the betrayal anymore. he's numb.

and then Odysseus orders them to flee. and Eurylochus falls back into referring to him as Captain, seeking out what to do next. because he thought he was ready to die, but he wasn't. of course he wasn't.

and then Odysseus lets Zeus kill them all anyways. and Eurylochus dies hungry and tired and condemned to death by a friend.

anyways the thunder saga is fantastic.