niftukkun

[niftukkun]

Susie is, and was always meant to be, The Girl from Deltarune's prophecy

I've seen a lot of people who believe that "The Girl" was meant to be somebody else- particularly, Noelle. To be blunt, this is false, and I'm tired of seeing this interpretation pop up everywhere. I can understand how one could come to this conclusion initially- hell, I used to believe this theory- but when you look at all the evidence, it just doesn't line up whatsoever. So let's get into why.

First off, let's tackle the big one.

THE SECOND HERO. THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.

I'm gonna tackle this one argument at a time, so...

"The silohuette looks nothing like Susie!"

I mean... eh? I can see the point being made here, but... would you really say this looks more like Noelle?? The silohuette is vague in general, and hardly resembles either of them, to be honest - but if I had to pick one of them, the hair at the back reminds me more of Susie - it's much spikier, more reminiscent of Susie's hair than Noelle's.

Apparently some people think that the hair is angel wings? I can... kinda see it, but, like... let's take a look at another prophecy panel for a moment.

The hero on the left here looks very much like Susie. The silohuette evokes specifically her hairstyle- Noelle's hair just doesn't look like that whatsoever, there's clearly no wings in sight, and the silohuette also lacks antlers. And they can't be wearing a hood, like the White Mage does in MAN'T'LE - that's clearly hair.

Plus, Kris's silohuette is accurate to their appearance, and Ralsei's is accurate to how the prophecy typically depicts him, always with his cloak, so I don't see any reason for The Girl's silohuette to just... randomly be wrong here, if it's meant to be Noelle.

"The Girl is wielding a sword! Susie can't wield swords, but Noelle can!"

Alright then, let's see what swords Noelle can equip!

Jingle Blade - Light World: Holiday Pencil

Black Shard - Light World: Black Shard

So, we have... literally her pencil, which isn't exactly strong evidence, and... the Black Shard. Now, let's look at the description for the Black Shard real quick...

"dagger-like", huh? That doesn't sound much like a sword to me... plus, it's also... not that big. Or sword-shaped. It's... kinda just shaped like a piece of glass. Now, where did we get the Black Shard again?

The Roaring Knight, who- regardless of which of the two candidates you're rooting for- is 100% a Holiday. With this in mind, along with the Black Shard's description, I think you can understand why I don't think The Girl wielding a sword is very strong evidence towards The Girl being Noelle.

But the silohuette still wields a sword, not an axe, which is quite interesting... but I think people are looking at it from the wrong angle here. Let's think about this a different way; Here, take some dialogue from Gerson's fight.

This comment about the "white pen, known as hope" intrigues me, because... well, as Susie says herself, Kris has the pen, and... hm. What do Kris's weapons become in the Light World, again? Let's go through one by one.

Pencil -> Wood Blade

Halloween Pencil -> Spooky Sword

Lucky Pencil -> Trefoil (UNUSED)

Eraser -> Bounce Blade

Mechanical Pencil -> Mecha Saber

Cactus Needle -> Saber 10

Quill Pen -> Winglade

Holiday Pencil -> Jingle Blade

Black Shard -> Black Shard

Even if you don't count the Trefoil, there's clearly a pattern here - most of Kris's weapons, which are all swords, are writing equipment - with the majority just being pens and pencils outright! Now, this is purely speculative...

But it would be really fucking cool and thematically appropriate if Susie got her hands on some sort of pen at some point, and then in the Dark World, it turns into a sword only she can equip, right??? Like- that'd be really fucking cool!! And also extremely appropriate & relevant to the game's themes!!!

But, admittedly, that is just speculation. You don't need to take my word for it - but I do think that using the fact that The Girl wields a sword as evidence that it's meant to be depicting Noelle is... a very shaky argument.

"The Girl is mentioned as both the second, and then as the last! That means there's two The Girls!"

Putting aside how needlessly obtuse the idea of there being two "The Girls" is- two people referred to by the exact same identifier... I don't have a not-incredibly-blunt way to put this-

It's a POEM.

Like- let's take a look at these prophecies, in the order they appear in-game.

THE THIRD HERO, THE PRINCE, ALONE IN DEEPEST DARK. THE FIRST HERO, THE CAGE, WITH HUMAN SOUL AND PARTS! AND LAST, WAS THE GIRL. AT LAST, WAS THE GIRL. THE SECOND HERO, THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.

It's a poem! And, considering the third panel, it looks like this poem follows the order they joined the party.

Ralsei first, since he uh. IDFK, had the prophecy beamed into his brain at birth or smth???

Then Kris, as we/them immediately join up with Ralsei when we first meet him.

And then Susie, who sort of joins our party twice - and the first time hardly even counts, considering that she refuses to listen to us and then joins the bad guys - she's by far the last to join the party, only truly working with us after her fight with Lancer in the prison.

They're "out of order" in the sense that it doesn't go 1-2-3, yes, but it's deliberate - maybe that's in part because of Susie's Dark World being topsy-turvy, but I don't think that means there's suddenly two "The Girls".

...and with that said, I feel the need to mention that the image for- AND LAST, WAS THE GIRL. AT LAST, WAS THE GIRL. -is literally just Rude Buster. Like- that's just Rude Buster. Sure, you could argue that it's also the act symbol, but the act symbol is never really referenced outside of the UI & characters talking about the UI, as far as I remember. Rude Buster, on the other hand...

...is literally used for the pattern on Susie's carpet. And you can't argue that this one is the act symbol, because... it's Susie's room. It's clearly meant to be Rude Buster...

Now- what does Noelle have to do with that symbol, if The Girl is meant to be her? Regardless of whether it's meant to be Rude Buster or the act icon, how does that relate to Noelle?? She has nothing to do with either of those things- hell, Susie even has a stronger relation to ACTing than Noelle does, what with her being the one to prompt S-Action & R-Action to exist. Now, to move onto my next point.

LOVE FINDS ITS WAY TO THE GIRL.

This prophecy! So- people think this might be referring to the Weird Route, and how "LOVE" - that is, Level Of ViolencE - will "find its way" to Noelle... but, like.

The weird route is explictly anti-prophecy.

Ralsei freaks out a bit when the ferris wheel scene doesn't happen, he literally tells you he thinks taking Noelle to the festival is "a bad decision" specifically on the weird route, and...

I think this dialogue speaks for itself. Though, some context: This dialogue is spoken by Ralsei if you tell him it's okay to not smile... specifically on the weird route. It's, like- the most blatant foreshadowing ever.

...also I don't know why everyone tries to make this panel about LOVE when that's not been a plot-point so far in Deltarune and the regular meaning of this panel would apply to Noelle on all routes anyway. (Even weird route... in a much more unfortunate manner.)

THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.

Now, I want to talk about this for a moment- the way the prophecy describes The Girl here: with hope crossed on her heart. Hope. Real quick, I'm gonna go through a bunch of mentions of "hope" in the game to prove a point - not every mention, but any that might be relevant.

I'll circle back to this one later, because I just realised something about this- just keep it in mind.

wow, it took way longer than i expected to find a thematically relevant example of "hope"...

So! This scene- it's a really big moment. We get a huge loredrop on Susie's backstory, and rather pointedly- she talks about hope, and it's the first time we get a really relevant mention of "hope" as a theme- and it's Susie who drops it. She talks about how Toriel gave her hope- and how that hope has been growing as she makes friends- and she says all this to Tenna, who's in a similar spot to the one she was in before...

...and it inspires hope in him, too. Her speech- her empathy & sympathy, and her offer to find him a new home- it gives him hope. Hope that he won't be thrown away- that he can find a new home, that he can be used and be happy again... and it's all thanks to Susie.

I've not really got much to say for this one, TBH- I think it just speaks for itself. IDK, words hard sometimes.

I brought this one up earlier, but I think it's relevant here, too- Gerson specifically believes Susie has the "white pen of hope"- the power to change fate, to change the ending and write her own- and he calls it hope. I think that's important.

I'm bringing up this Seam dialogue because, for most people, Susie- and her Rude Buster- is the only reason you could even touch the Roaring Knight. It's thanks to her that you could get that crystal - without her, you'd be shit outta luck. (That is, unless you're extraordinarily cracked at the game, but I'm not considering that edge case...) So, you could say, indirectly, Susie's inspired hope in Seam, too.

I saved this one for last on purpose, because I think it's the most poignant.

* Susie's hope... Her naive hope... * It's... infectious, isn't it, Kris?

Ralsei directly talks about how Susie's hope is "infectious"- her bright, shining hope, it's spreading, it's giving Ralsei hope, too. Hope that the ending can be changed- that the final tragedy can be averted, despite everything- despite the fact that the prophecy has yet to change. I've got something to say regarding that, actually- but I wanna finish this train of thought first.

So, Susie has a very clear connection to hope- even in Chapter 3, before the prophecy is in the picture, she establishes herself as a person full of hope- a person that inspires hope in others. Now, what connection does Noelle have with hope? What are her thematic ties to the idea and feeling of hope?

...

She, uh. She doesn't really... have any. Like- she mentions hope... once??

Like- Alphys and Hathy have more text connecting them to hope (or, the word hope) than this. Noelle really just- doesn't have any narrative association with hope like Susie does, which I think is a big point against Noelle being The Girl, considering that "with hope crossed on her heart" is the way the prophecy defines The Girl.

Now- to circle back to that text from the legend real quick, I had a thought about that! So- it says it's a legend of hope and dreams. Light and dark. Hope and light on the left, dark and dreams on the right. This is a complete tangent and probably doesn't mean much, but- dark worlds are already associated with dreams, and what with Susie's connection with hope, and how she's a lightner... I dunno. I just think it's neat that it lines up like that, Gyaa Ha ha!

THE PROPHECY HAS NOT CHANGED YET

Alright so I really need to address this point- the prophecy has not changed. Ralsei makes a point of this multiple times during Chapter 4, and even the shadow crystals support this idea.

Now, assuming Noelle was meant to be The Girl, and that Susie took her spot... I don't think Ralsei's mindset here makes much sense. After all, that would mean that the prophecy was already changed- and in quite a significant way, too. Like- one of the three heroes just being replaced?! That's huge! Ralsei would totally freak out about that the moment he saw us in Castle Town for the first time if it was true!

Some people try to argue that Ralsei just- wouldn't know that Susie isn't meant to be The Girl, but I don't think that's right. Ralsei knows the prophecy in full- every last detail- and he knows Susie by name when he first sees her.

I think that's quite relevant- he recognises her appearance, calls her by name before she introduces herself, and is confident that she's one of the three heroes. Not once is he like "uh- okay then i guess i'll go with this-" or anything like that- and he has not once expressed that this is wrong.

Also- frankly, the idea that the prophecy has already changed is a weak idea that wouldn't serve the story well. On first glance, yeah- cool, Susie broke it by being Susie from the get-go, cool, go Susie! But when you look at it more deeply, it's... kinda just a weak plot point?

This overbearing force, This prophecy which forces the hand of fate, This antagonistic force that's being built up to be broken at the end of the game...

yeah susie already broke/bent it in hour 1 lmao, its actually entirely worthless

Like. It just... doesn't really serve the story very well. At all. If Susie wasn't meant to be The Girl. Susie hypes up the prophecy because she's in it- it seems cool! She's finally- part of something, and it's something massive- she's a HERO! And then, as she learns more, she loses faith in the prophecy, even despite that- she calls it stupid. She forsakes it, and swears to defy it.

I think that arc would kinda be ruined a bit if it turned out that she wasn't meant to be part of the prophecy in the first place.

Additionally- I'd like to provide a quote from @ liz_x51 on Discord about this, she put it really well:

The idea of "we need to change the prophecy but it has never been done. We don't even know if it's possible" is kind of undermined if it either has a lot of ways to interpret it already (that's already a form of 'change') or if it's already changed from the beginning of the game by Susie being a hero

NOELLE & SUSIE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE

While trying to think of any more Girlelle points to debunk, I realised another reason why The Girl can't have been intended to be anyone other than Susie- and especially why it can't have been Noelle:

Are you really trying to tell me that swapping Noelle out for Susie wouldn't immediately change fate?

Those two are nothing alike- there is no way in hell they'd make the same choices, that they'd follow the prophecy all the same- especially with how specific the prophecy is!

Like- yes, these are all jokes- but they're also examples of how specific the prophecy is, and I don't believe these are meant to be random, throw-away exceptions- I think they are specifically meant to show us how specific the prophecy is- how it captures every event.

And, with that in mind... are you really telling me Chapter 1 would play out exactly the same if you swapped Susie for Noelle? Really?? The chapter would diverge in the first 10 minutes of the dark world! Like- I think this is something nobody really thinks about when talking about this theory- there is no way the plot would happen the exact same with Noelle in place of Susie. That just wouldn't happen.

"Ralsei says Susie is supposed to equip ribbons, so he isn't really very reliable."

...and Susie can equip ribbons. She just doesn't, because she doesn't want to. I think "supposed to" is just a case of weird phrasing from Ralsei.

While I'm on this topic- there's some dialogue I think is relevant.

Susie asks about Noelle, and Ralsei's first thought- which takes him a moment, mind you, considering the "Umm..." - is what items she can equip. I think that's quite a striking indicator that she's not very relevant to the prophecy - at least, not in a way Ralsei could identify her with. (There's still hope for y'all, Angel Noelle truthers.)

If Noelle was meant to be The Girl, this would be the perfect moment for Ralsei to mention that, no? This is right after he said he'd be more honest with the party- that he'd stop hiding so many things from them- and he is being explicitly asked about Noelle. This would be THE perfect moment for that loredrop!

But it doesn't happen, and I think that says enough.

This is where I'd put my closing thoughts... if I, uh. Had any. But, uh, I got nothin'. There's one The Girl, and her name is Susie [Lastname], not Noelle Holiday or any other name. If I forgot to debunk any points about Girlelle, I'll edit the post with those, I guess. But. Yeah. That's it. That's the post. go home

[niftukkun]

huh. yeah. keep an eye on this. thank you user couchhumper12

[niftukkun]

(tags from @dubioushonour and @runepixel )

There is only one story in Hometown... mostly. The Prophecy is Lord of the Hammer is Dragon Blazers is the local religion. All the art that you can really call pop culture – that shapes how kids, or adults, relate to one another – emerges from the Prophecy. One single fairy tale, repeated over and over but still carrying its core ideological payload of destiny, and something terrible at the end.

Susie fundamentally couldn't fit in until she found her place in the Prophecy, and her self-image as someone who really isn't a bully is increasingly reliant on being the girl with hope crossed on her heart instead – reflected in her incidental exposure to Dragon Blazers via a Lost and Found cartridge, such that she's missing context and playing social catch-up compared to her peers.

And this is true of almost all media, but it's not true of horror. Blood Crushers, the movie about a killer severed hand, is the one piece of fiction referenced in any detail that has absolutely nothing to do with the Prophecy; not surprisingly, Noelle hides her interest in it from her family (playing the Glaceir sequence in secret; watching scary movies with Dess, the same scary stuff Kris remembers being interested in in her room), while Susie the outsider loves it openly.

The secret bosses, with their recurring fixation on freedom, are framed via the tropes of horror: killer clowns! Haunted puppets! An Evil Video Game! To break away from the single story that gives our lives structure is a traumatic rupture, which the Dark Worlds – shaped as they are by a culture that has plenty it refuses to look at, in their kids and in their lives – cannot imagine as anything but, well, a horror.

[niftukkun]

what do you make of ramb saying the sword route is the game kris *actually* wants to play? does kris actually like the original game more than the games tenna prepared for them? do they just see the sword route as a means towards an end (obtaining freedom, presumably)? would they even be playing it if it was up to them? i'm trying to figure out if anything of what ramb says about kris is accurate or if his view of them is distorted by his nostalgia goggles

i've expressed this a few times before, but my loose take is that ramb is, deliberately or not, pointing out to Kris how loose the layers of things are. kris liked games where doing violence was the only way to progress, they probably did the evil route in db2 to get full completion, they had fun and even got to 'healthily' process nastier intrusive thoughts thru taking things out on game characters.

what the games are illustrating is that the dark world is just as unreal as the video game, and so surely just as consequence-free. even if you're broken off the main route and ended up on the evil one, whether you meant to or had the choice to or not, hey, now you're on it and can have fun! there's some cool spooky scenes and a really interesting challenging boss fight on this path, and if there's no other way to progress, surely it's okay to just Enjoy it?

freedom can mean making a single, terrible choice that locks you to a far worse path, so long as you enjoy it, so long as you're having fun. freedom can mean not caring about consequence or responsibility because you can do anything and it won't change anything at all. freedom can mean giving in to all the worst of yourself.

have fun, Kris. play the game. it's just fake, like everything else here.

[niftukkun]

exploring unexplained darkner lore: WHEN does a darkner gain consciousness, exactly?

alternate title: WOODY THEORY IS ACTUALLY RELEVANT BUT NOT IN THE WAY WE THOUGHT??? MAYBE???

there are so many unanswered questions regarding how darkners and dark worlds “work” and i’m really fascinated by the worldbuilding put out so far - but we still don’t really know what the deal is, not really.

the way ralsei explains dark worlds in chapter 3 basically tells us what we already know, but explicitly - darkners are objects in the light world. they’re not “real” and derive “purpose” from being needed by lightners (which is a whole can of worms.)

as evidenced by lancer’s “all gone!” reaction to susie asking where his dark world went in chapter 2, sealing dark fountains DOES effectively destroy the world, but not necessarily the people inside it (if you decide to recruit them.) there’s an obvious ethical dilemma here that’s been on people’s minds since chapter 1 came out. to me, the biggest question is:

does the dark world always exist, inaccessible to lightners, or is it physically created and destroyed on the same day? are the fountains portals or creators?

the repeated phrase “the unending pillar of darkness that gives my body form” (ralsei’s unused manual)/“the dark fountain that gives the world form” (tv time credits) (there might be more instances im forgetting idk) does imply the latter, as well as the descriptions of “creating fountains” “making dark worlds” as opposed to, say, “opening doors” to them.

but the concept of time here is… weird. darkners consistently refer to the past, every dark world we enter has history, darkners even speak of people from other dark worlds! and the histories always parallel what happened to their corresponding object and space in the light world. chaos king is bitter and hates lightners because they abandoned him and everyone else - because they’re toys left in an abandoned classroom. cyber city doesn’t have this problem because they’re situated in a computer library regularly used by lightners, but queen is struggling with the internet outage. kris’ living room is… a child of divorce. and chapter 4? man i don’t even know. the darkners in the church are so cryptic i haven’t been able to analyse it properly.

so if darkners remember their lives as objects, were they always alive, or were they created by the fountains and “implanted” with those memories? are they even “real” memories?

chapter 3 raises the most questions regarding this. tenna KNOWS kris, watched them grow up. ramb comments on how kris and their friends used to play make believe WITH THE SAME OBJECTS we know now - im failing to remember the line but i know it mentioned how queen and king were at war! and in chapter 4 it’s revealed that dark worlds are warped by the mind that creates them. this raises so many questions - are all objects in the light world sentient and able to communicate with each other, just invisible to lightners? or are objects “summoned” into consciousness with memories of their lives automatically created for them?

and that made me fucking realize. ARE DARKNERS LIKE THE TOYS IN FUCKING TOY STORY???? THINK ABOUT IT. TGINK ANBOUT IT

tenna’s past with spamton is a huge indicator of this - they were business partners, right? and they had a falling out because of a mutual misunderstanding involving the mysterious person calling spamton and making him a Big Shot. well, how the hell did spamton know tenna, if they’re from different dark worlds?

in what i’m fairly certain is game tenna’s last piece of dialogue in the sword route, he says “they never should have brought that computer home…”

spamton knows tenna and mike before tenna’s dark world is created. they communicated and had a relationship before ANY of the dark worlds were created if we take “1997” as the literal year of spamton being a big shot. all because the dreemurs brought a computer home, allowing tenna to meet spamton… now, you could argue that this is because the prophecy is controlling everything, but we already see ways in which the prophecy has been contradicted, so i’m uncertain if the prophecy has THAT strong of a hold on the world. (if that ages bad in the next ten years womp womp)

AND. although we don’t know if this is every object or just objects that have previously been animated via fountains, but tenna shows signs of sentience even in the light world!!! y’all know the line of dialogue with mettaton where he plays a “salacious music video”!!!! look!!!!! THE OBJECTS ARE SENTIENT ITS FUCKING TOY STORY

DARKNERS EITHER LITERALLY LIVE AS SENTIENT OBJECTS (LIKE TOY STORY, THE BRAVE LITTLE TOASTER, ETC) OR IN A MORE ETHEREAL SENSE LIVE ON A SEPARATE PLANE OF EXISTENCE AS DARKNERS BUT CAN ONLY DIRECTLY INTERACT W LIGHTNERS WHEN A FOUNTAIN GIVES THEM ANTHROPOMORPHIC FORM

WAITER! MORE WOODY THEORY PLEASE gets shot 57 times

[niftukkun]

I mean, it would be cool if, by the end of the Bonus Boss Route, Susie and Ralsei will have a load-out/stat-build that turns them from a fighter and a squishy healer to a healer-tank and a glass cannon, have their roles sort of swap to go with the themes of Freedom from your assigned role…

But there’s also something about the idea that Susie’s build is just gonna keep getting more and more useful and versatile while Ralsei kinda lags behind…. Not as a way to diminish Ralsei’s importance, but to emphasize his importance as a person.

Like, it’s the whole thing of pointing out the dissonance between a Player’s mindset and the mindset of character in the narrative. A Player might be tempted to appreciate a character less if they’re kinda middling in gameplay terms, but even if Susie ever overshadows Ralsei in terms of healing, she will never stop appreciating as a teammate and a friend.

And Ralsei himself has self-worth issues tied to the idea that he only matters as long as he can be useful. It made him define his entire identity around how he can be as pleasant and inoffensive and helpful as possible to his Lightners Teammates, and... maybe also to the Player.

It's hard to say what exactly he knows/thinks of the Player just yet... but even without speculating too much... I think his non-conformational and deferential attitude at the very least makes him a representation of a typical 'Helpful NPC', same with him being a source of Tutorials, helpful information and useful healing/support spells.

Ralsei's biggest fear is being discarded by the Lightners because he has outlived his use, and yet he rationalizes it as being totally okay and understandable thing for the Lightners to do. What is his worth if he's not a Useful Helper NPC anymore?

So, it would be a total refutation of this toxic mindset if Susie's progress with Healing Magic diminish from his use... but does not diminish from his value as a person and friend in Susie's eyes. That he learns it's okay for him to be 'obsolete'.

In other words…

[niftukkun]

King and Puppets

[niftukkun]

oopah

[niftukkun]

obsessed with the idea of deltarune asriel meeting the undertale kids at college. i hope he comes home with his phone absolutely full of shitty house party pictures like this

[niftukkun]

was joking with a friend about the spamtenna baby being one of those fucked up cats noelle keeps spawning and then it was suddenly not a joke

[niftukkun]

Wardrobe Order

Based on Nelnal's other outfits for her!

[niftukkun]

does anyone else see the vision. big fan of whatever the fuck this dynamic is

(individual comparisons under the cut)

[niftukkun]

hm. dont usually put my own two cents for theories but somethings been kind of annoying me recently so yeah. ralsei thoughts.

i really dont like the idea that ralsei is a specific object. especially not with newer stuff from chapters 3 and 4.

For starters, most people that try to figure out what ralsei is in the real world are basing it off of this appearance

however, I feel like there's plenty of evidence to point to this not being his real form, right? People have already pointed out that his original shadowed form isn't fully consistent. It's possibly the most obvious when you compare his singing animations in both forms. His hat form makes what was later 'revealed' to be his ears look more like hair?,

Ears don't really split the same way that hair does, and theres other examples of hatsei having this kind of spikyness to his 'ears' that hatless ralsei doesnt have.

even the fangamer plush makes his ears spiky!!

its a pretty major part of how hatsei looks, and its certainly been talked about before. And then comes chapter 3+4. And we have plenty of evidence that ralsei is a shapeshifter, and I have seen literally nobody talk about it????? huh?????

Oh, and the hat casting a shadow on him makes no fucking sense because he goes onto wear SEVERAL hats in chapter 3 and he's normal????

also I know its like. A funny bit, but HE TURNS INTO A HORSE

WHY THE FUCK WOULD KRIS'S HEADBAND TURN INTO A HORSE???? WHY WOULD A GREEN CRAYON TURN INTO A HORSE???? WHY CAN HE DO THIS????? THIS ISNT A COSTUME THATS NOT HOW THEY WORK????? WHERE WOULD HIS BODY GO.

not to mention that changing shapes was literally his ability in the legend of tenna game???? he plays it off like 'oh every character has abilities i can turn into a box' but he can also turn into a dog? since ralsei was the only one who read the manual it very well could be an ability given to him since the real Ralsei is also a shapeshifter.

It would also explain why ralsei draws himself in his hat form

thats closer to what his natural form is. Dont have any screenshots on hand right now, but he's got two lines in chapter four (if you leave him lying on the ground for too long, and right before they find the first fountain) about how much longer he can 'keep this body for' that make it very obvious that he's only using a form that looks cuter to appeal to us. Him being a shapeshifter would also explain things like

His face being a deliberately made abstraction would also make this interaction make a lot more sense. Pre chapter three, I assumed Ralsei based his face on Asriel to either try appealing to Kris or as fanservice for the player/red soul, however, now that we've slowly started learning more about Ralsei, it's beginning to seem more like Ralsei just wants to have a face and more distinct appearance, like the lightners do. However, because of how dark worlds work, he can only base it off of what already exists, with that already existing 'model' being Asriel, although with modifications to make himself cuter— pink horns and eyes, and his usual glasses. It's why Kris is always quick to point out differences between them, and why Ralsei is embarrassed at being told that they look similar, he didn't have a choice other than be based off something that already exists.

Alright, so Ralsei is a shapeshifter. He still has to have some equivalent in the Light World though, since that's how Dark Worlds work. He was literally about to tell Susie what he was before getting interrupted, and Toby Fox is deliberately dancing around the topic.

However, I think the answer is actually pretty obvious. Ralsei is a being of 'pure darkness', which is why he can exist in any Dark World, unlike Lancer and Rouxls, who need to be objects that 'belong' in their respective worlds. His form is made up by the original dark fountain, and he describes himself as a 'Prince of the Dark'. Characters in the Dark World know about what happens to and around their real world equivalents, but Ralsei in particular seems to be especially aware of all of Susie and Kris's actions and movements. He doesn't need to be brought in by Kris like Lancer and Rouxls do, and he always appears in the Dark World a few moments after Susie and Kris do, while somehow almost always having pretty intimate knowledge of how the world came to be. Ralsei is also the most adamant on being depended on by Lightners, even more than people like Tenna. He talks about how a Darkners role is to be used by Lightners and to make them happy, and his character development in Chapter 3 especially goes into how he wants to be needed and how he's afraid he's slowly developing his own personality, and why he believes darkners shouldn't do that.

So, taking all of that into account, I feel like the most obvious answer for what Ralsei is is a shadow.

He's a literal prince of the dark. It explains why he can shapeshift, since shadows can be made to look like anything— I'm specifically thinking of things like shadow puppets, and why when he gets knocked out he seems to literally disappear, returning to the shadows. A shadow is also the most dependant on light, shadows literally cannot exist without light, or they'll just be darkness. It even explains his empty room.

His insistence that his only role is to help the Lightners, the way that people can never find anything notable about him (asking swatch for specials his suggestion for Ralsei is based purely on how he dresses and Queen literally forgets to get him a cage), and his ability to be in any dark world (since there's literally nowhere without shadows) all seem to point towards Ralsei being a shadow.

Ralsei being a shadow also means he's literally with you in the dark, could probably straight up not exist if the world was plunged into darkness, and also makes him a weaker version of a titan (explaining the 'prince' title. not quite king, but noble nontheless).

[niftukkun]

A lot of Deltarune… isn’t quite a refutation or counterargument to Undertale’s themes as much as it is going, like, “I mean, you’re not wrong… but it’s a bit more complicated than that sometimes”. Or, like, elaborating on nuances that were present in Undertale but weren’t given as much focus as Deltarune, as a much longer and more complex game building on Undertale’s themes, can give them.

And it happens most often with Ralsei. Ralsei’s worldview often seems to be an oversimplified and corrupted reflection of Undertale’s themes. Exaggerating them and stripping them of their nuances so that the other characters (mostly Susie) can respond to them and re-introduce nuances and complications back into them.

Most obviously this is done in Chapter 1 with his ultra-Pacifistic and ultra-nice attitude to conflict. His views at the start were a lot more simplified than Undertale, as even a True Pacifist Playthrough requires one to defeat Asgore and Flowey through violence at least once. Plus a bunch of times where Sparing an enemy required an acknowledgment that they can’t be appeased or convinced to back down from a fight. There was sometimes a bit of trickery involved, rather than just 'being nice'.

But these nuances weren’t really Undertale’s narrative focus, the focus was on selling the Player on the value of Pacifism in the first place. So Ralsei’s oversimplification of the idea is a good basis for Deltarune to start putting these nuances to the forefront of the story and really focusing on them, now that Undertale has already established the baseline of “even Random Encounters can be real people with feelings and you should always strive to non-violence.”

And I think a similar thing is kinda happening with his whole…

Which feels to me very reminiscent of…

Like, okay, it is very thematically important that Asriel can’t be ‘saved’ in Undertale. The Royal Siblings Tragedy is a traumatic shadow looming over so many characters in the game, and it’s not something that can be perfectly fixed by being nice or even with Unkillable Time God Powers. Toriel and Asgore and, yes, Flowey/Asriel himself all have character arcs centered around moving on from the tragedy and accepting the present, and would be weakened if a Player could just… magically fix things.

But that doesn’t mean that doesn’t hurt to hear Asriel be so resigned to his fate. Susie Deltarune’s reaction to hearing Ralsei speak so plainly about the idea that he’s just an illusion and that she should prioritize her ‘Real Friends’ very much echoes the emotional reactions of most Undertale Players seeing Asriel ask them to not worry about him and focus on their real friends because he’s already doomed. And in both cases it’s extremely understandable.

The fact that even with Unkillable Time God Powers, the past is the past and there is a value in acceptance and moving on is itself an important nuance in Undertale’s central theme of Determination. With enough Willpower and Defiance, the Player can defy the concept of a kill-or-be-killed world, and free the Monsters from their seemingly hopeless prison, and resist the laws of death and time… it’s a power that comes from a refusal to accept the inevitable. But if you deny everything that goes against your personal will, you’re gonna end up like Flowey, utterly consumed by grief and denial over Chara’s death.

Flowey has to accept that the game between him and the Player is going to end, Asriel has to accept Chara is dead, Asgore has to accept his family will never truly return to what it was before, the Player also has to accept the game is over and that replaying it will just tear away the characters from their happy ending, and that the Asriel they saw at the True Pacifist Ending is gone.

But even with all of that… that doesn’t lessen the emotional pain of watching a little goat boy asking you very kindly and very genuinely to abandon him. It doesn’t make it any less valid for one’s reaction to be “Well, who said I have to leave and forget you? I’m sure that with the pure strength of my heart and the Power of Friendship(TM) I could save you too!!”. It doesn’t make it any less heartbreaking, even frustrating, that this is the thing the game ask you to give up on.

Undertale already added some nuance to the situation, first things first, Asriel does honestly appreciate it if you go all the way back to the start of the game and talk with him. Although he still feels that he's doomed, at least he accepted that Frisk is going to remember him.

Secondly, with Flowey’s Post-Pacifist Dialogue

And especially that Winter Alarm Clock Dialogue…

…both showing that while there was nothing that could be done to stop Asriel from turning back into Flowey, that does not necessarily mean Flowey is doomed. Despite his claims both in his Flowey form and as Original Flavor Goatboy Asriel, Flowey does still show hints that he cares for other people, that he has been truly affected by the events of the True Pacifist Playthrough, that the heart he had as Asriel isn’t actually truly gone…

We’re still dealing with the fact that we can’t undo the trauma of the Royal Siblings Tragedy but… Just because Flowey can’t be magically turned back into the person he was before his Trauma, doesn’t mean he is doomed. What happened happened, but he is still capable of healing and self-improvement. And although he’s still kind of in the margins of the Post Pacifist Friend Group, it doesn’t seem like he’s just been abandoned or forgotten for the sake of the people who are more ‘real’.

So just like with Ralsei’s Pacifism, I think his fatalism and absolute lack of self-worth is an exaggerated and simplified reflection of Asriel's situation. It's kind of a Very Different Thing between Ralsei believing he's ontologically doomed to matter less than Lightners and Asriel believing he's ontologically doomed to be an asshole, but...

It still creates a basic foundation to add nuances and subversions to the point about the importance of moving on and acceptance. Not rejecting it outright, but demonstrating how seemingly clear-cut situations of acceptance can become more complicated.

Because in Susie we now have an actual character to voice the frustrations many players felt about being unable to 'save' Asriel and argue in favor of the desire to never abandon a friend, no matter how doomed or unimportant or lesser he claims he is.

Because now we can better demonstrate the more toxic and unhealthy manifestations of the idea of ‘moving on’. How it can be just as bad as clinging to the past relentlessly.

And allow more time on-screen to explore the nuanced alternatives that aren't either unhealthily clinging to the past or quietly accepting your own lousy fate.

And now we can create more situations where Susie’s instincts to reject acceptance and reject leaving anyone behind and reject ‘moving on’ are actually the unambiguously correct answers.

Not necessarily always, I do think she’ll have to accept that Gerson is dead. And obviously with this being DivorceRune the Divorce Game, the theme of needing to move on from clinging to a past that will never be restored just as you remember it is still very important.

But she has a point, and just like with Pacifism, I think she actually has an important lesson to teach Ralsei specifically.

[niftukkun]

Man, this is such an interesting exchange, cause, like… in most stories, when a character says they'd like things to go on forever, that they want something eternal, they're pretty much setting themselves up for a very rude awakening. You know, nothing lasts forever, sometimes you have to learn how to let go, sometimes you need to move on. I mean, that's one of the core themes of Undertale.

Flowey/Asriel's whole motivation in the Pacifist Route is to make the Game go on forever, to put the ending eternally out of reach, to trap Frisk in an infinite time loop because he just can't move on from Chara's death.

Part of the narrative is that if the Player RESETs a Pacifist Route then they are no better than he was, since now they are also yanking everyone away from their Happy Ending so that we can play with them again, because we can't accept the game has Ended. The Murder Route is less focused on that whole theme but you replay it over and over again Chara will basically call you a weirdo for your obsessive clinginess to this world.

Part of Undertale's themes is the importance of an Ending to a story. A True Pacifist Player's true and final act of selflessness is to let go of their desire have things keep going for forever, to give up on Eternity… for the sake of the happiness of every other character in this world, for the sake of their Happy Ending.

On the other hand, as a Wise Dog once said…

Both Undertale and Deltarune love exploring the ways in which the world of a game is different or similar to the real world, how the perspective of a Player is so different from the perspective of an actual character living in this world and... Real Life doesn't have a clear set ending.

The Player is the only one from whom the story just ended. Everyone else just kept living their stories of friendship together, although they probably never experienced something as high-stakes as the events of 'Undertale' ever again. And... when endings do seem to come, they're not going to be as clear-cut and satisfying and clearly communicated as the Game Ending is to the Player.

…But on the other other hand, it is still true that some things in life do end and we do have to accept that. Like… you know, the most famous Ending in life… is Death.

Gerson hears Susie talk about how she wants things to go on forever, but he already decided he has no interest in Eternity himself. He knows that the Three Heroes are here to seal the Fountains that revived him, he knows that when they succeed he'd go back to being a dust-covered hammer, probably never to be revived again and… he's perfectly at peace with that. He's an old man who died from natural causes, he had a long, full and satisfying life, he already had his ending. What's happening now is some weird glorified epilogue, but he knows it will end soon. And that's fine by him, because the time for his story has ended.

He does have one major regret in life, his failure to properly support his son's writing, and he spends all of the time the Dark has given him to try and make up for it. But it's really just a matter of asking Susie to deliver his message. He doesn't try to maintain or expand the Dark World so he could make up for his mistakes or try to pull Alvin in so he could meet him again or find a way to come back to life in the Light World somehow… I wonder if Someone was expecting him to do something like that and that's why they tried to give him that Shadow Crystal, but we all know that didn't work

In a way… we've already seen Susie's rude awakening for her desire for a 'forever'. She formed such a powerful bond with "the Old Man", she definitely would've wanted their time together to last longer, to last as long as it could, to last forever. But that's not possible.

And even his appearance in the Third Sanctuary was kind of a surprise stroke of luck that shouldn't be taken for granted.

The whole point of the Second Sanctuary is that Susie realized that Gerson was dead in the Light World, and trying to cope with this idea, went straight to a kind of denial.

Well, she can just pop over to the Dark World and, like, ask him what the Door Code is, right? No big deal! I mean, it's not exactly like Susie and Kris were really at a dead-end, there were plenty of areas in the Church they haven't checked thoroughly at all (not just the Fire Extinguisher)…

It wasn't because she HAD to do it for the Door Code, it's because she had to do it to reassure herself that her new friend isn't really gone, that maybe he'll be there waiting for her in his study if she just High-Key Stab Reality and Unleash the Flow of Pure Darkness Energy…

But it wasn't that simple. At best you can say his appearance in the Third Sanctuary means that he can manifest in any Church Dark World created by the Knight… but seeing how Susie's whole goal at the moment is to stop the Knight from making more Dark Fountains, that's not exactly increasing her chances to see the Old Man again.

When they go to seal the Fountain, Susie muses about her 'stupid dream' that things will just… stay the same. That she'll keep having fun Dark World adventures with her friends through eternity. But she knows that although Kris fully understands her, that's not what's going to happen. It's both about how the stakes and seriousness of the story have been so overtly raised for her, the Knight and the Titans aren't just an ominous background detail. She has fought them both. But it's also because she is already experiencing an Ending right now. She knows that when Kris seals this Fountain, she will probably never see Gerson again.

…But despite all of that, I don't think the narrative completely rebuke Susie's desire for Eternity. After all, Gerson heard her say that, fully knowing his own fate, and he mostly seemed intrigued? It doesn't seem to waver his belief that she's the one who should be writing the story, that he could count on her to defy fate in the name of Justice. Y'know, Susie wasn't really thinking of the Inevitability of Death at that moment, she was just thinking that… she would like to keep having fun adventures with her friends in perpetuity. And is that such a bad thing to wish for?

I mean, just because something was a theme in Undertale doesn't mean that Deltarune can't use Susie to drive home the point of 'well, yeah, you're not wrong, but it's a bit more nuanced than that", there's precedence, in fact.

I'm thinking about, like, the Tenna storyline in Chapter 3. That was also about someone who needs to move on, Tenna is clinging to his happier past in unhealthy way and wants the fun of his game show to last forever. He also wanted his own version of Eternity. But the game still draws a contrast between Ralsei, who just tells him to remember the happy times and accept that everything ends, including his use

And Susie, who is the one who rejects this mindset. Her solution still has some level of moving on and accepting that the Dreemurr-Holiday Family Unit has ended, but that doesn't mean he's just got to lay down and accept that his whole life is over. She comes up with a plan that ensures the continuation of his life and his dreams. It's an Ending of sorts, but an Ending that has a continuation attached to it. And it came specifically from Susie's distaste for endings, from her aggressive rejection of going gently into that good night.

There are certain things, certain endings, we all have to accept, but there is also so much that is worth rebelling against, that is worth fighting for. Susie's desire for an 'Eternity' might be a bit oversimplistic, but it is also the source of her rebellious spirit, out-of-the-box-thinking and the shining hope that Gerson sees in her. So I don't think the story will dismiss it outright, we really just have to wait and see just how much of that 'Eternity' Susie will manage to keep...

[niftukkun]

New deltarune chapters.... We are SO back

[niftukkun]

I can't keep track of the record number of exes in this game so I made myself a chart, enjoy