#“hand (loop) in unlovable hand (sif)”

[sparkdoesart]

Isat siffrin and loop short animatic thing for my au~

Spoilers for the secret ending!

So much i wanna talk about with these two~

But alas, I'll keep it to myself for now,

[lucabyte]

Okaaaaaay so this thing. Happy weekend everybody it's time for some Director's Commentary™!!!

right. so this thing was originally part of a far larger Thing. Sadly, I realised I was absolutely in the wrong medium for what I was trying to communicate with it. After about 5-6 different takes on how I was going to format it I realised I wasn't just out of my depth but just like, not making something condusive to a comic. Still though, I liked what I was trying to communicate and I don't want to just scrap it without giving it to everyone in some form.

So...! In an ask way back I mentioned what i like to call The Isabeau Torment Nexus vis a vis: loop hanging out with the party in postcanon.

Namely the idea of isiloops *almost* happening before loop's identity is made clear. now i vaguely made fun of myself for this in the tags but yeah, no, even if what i draw is all the conflict, like 90% of the time i bash the dolls together in my head its like 😊💖🌺yaaaay yippiee what if they healed and it was niceys even through the rough patches yaaay✨✨✨😊💖🌺 which is kinda necessary for this rugpull, logistically.

So. I point to the link up there. All that still stands. The idea of a like. "siffrin has two hands" ship dynamic forming as Loop slowly re-integrates into the party as a new person and even if it's weird and a little bitter, it's still nice. And if you ascribe to my readings of certain party members (bonnie. it's bonnie*) maybe they even end up becoming closer to them As Loop than they did as siffrin due to knowing their boundaries already and not having Fucked Up Real Bad In Act 5. So they just become another party member with their own unique relationships even if they are a little prickly and unpredictable with triggers, seemingly.

Nowwwww a bit of analysis on Siffrin and Isabeau.

So. Isabeau is a far less well adjusted individual than most initially read him as, and even if he manages to get over the posessive streak he super has, he then has to contend with something else: accusations of cowardice.

While I think pre-game isafrin would be a fucking . catastrophy . i don't know that either of those two would be able to recognise that. and I think that it's likely that Isabeau doesn't really enjoy the knowledge that he chickened out of the confession that consistently. And that, potentially because of this, Sif felt themselves unlovable.

So! Proactivity! Change! Be more forward from now on! Maybe that will help! (and usually it would!)

then, I feel, while we never see how Siffrin truly acts around Loop in a "knowing who they are for certain" state, it would't be an unfair assumption that they may, both, on occasion err on the side of "i probably know what the other wants, since we have the same brain". Which is like, pretty logical, and is at the very least utilised and acknowledged by Loop outright joking about exactly what Siffrin is thinking in-game.

Ergo... Siffrin and Isabeau coming to the conclusion together that maybe they could just close the open side on the polycule triangle, and it'd be cool and nice and solve a bunch of loose ends? If we assume that Loop has cooled off enough to at least be cordial (maybe even friendly!) with Isabeau after however long its been, and that Isa has been charmed by them (almost as if they . kinda like when weird short freaks are mean to him), if Isa approaches Sif with a "hey would this be a good idea?", Siffrin, knowing who Loop is, and seeing that they aren't completely antagonistic of Isa... Well? Wouldn't it make sense? He knows they still love him, right? So..?

and thus. gestures. what if 2/3rds of the polycule had a pretty reasonable idea that seems like it'd go well, and then. it very much. does not.

^^^ AS YOU CAN SEE. TOO MUCH TO REALLY COMMUNICATE EFFECTIVELY IN ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF A REASONABLY LONG-TERM FANFIC which is a thing i will not be doing.

and not only that. god this is way too far off into the future speculative for my comfort. i know i obviously dip into more of a fanfiction-space than a pure-analytical space when drawing anyway, but this is just a little too far off for me.

but yeah. that's this. that's free ball for everyone to play with now, now that it's out in the wild.

buuut. but. i didn't realise i was going way too long with this until after the thumbnail pile started getting a touch insurmountable.

so. since waste not want not, here's my thumbnails. sad i wont be finishing a couple of these since i like their flow and framing but c'est la vie.

these are all from june, including the original version of the one i decided was strong enough to finish on its own. as you can see i tossed the dialogue and changed the last panel due to the more wordless nature. But i do still like a lot of the faces here n such. also its funny to show off how messy it all starts out. Sorry that the speech isn't formatted at all but hopefully it's followable if you try matching it up.

but yeah. god. be free my post. this thing has been a sword of damocles above me for a while since i wanted to articulate. all this. but i think it's fine to just lay it all out like this for everyone to take if they want it.

i suppose the one final note here is: oh yeah btw i think framing this as The Thing that finally makes Loop break and have to come clean about their identity is the fucking good shit. Like they vanish until nearly daybreak that night after this, Sif can't find their dagger, etc, and when they finally come back loop is very blunt about how they have to talk. now. or else. sorry this is fanfiction again. free to take though if you want it im not gonna be writing it 💖

*(bonnieeeeeee..... hijacking this isiloops post to talk about like. god. have you ever thought about how loop could score a slam dunk so easily with bonnie if they remember to treat them with a level of maturity and no-bullshit explanations of harder topics? loop basically gets a fresh no-baggage start with them if they play their cards right, which could lead to a very fruitful relationship? but also uagh. what do you do if you (siffrin) find out your alt-self has become a more trusted figure in the kid's life than you in like no time flat. god. i think about it.)

Olive Branch

Wrong Move

[gffa]

@writegowrite mentioned that she would be interested in reading Avengers fic and I pretty much shot my hand up and went, “Ooh!  Pick me!  Pick me!” at the barest reference to maybe wanting some recs of the Gen or Stucky or Thorki variety.  I am here for that, okay, this is my time! I chose the fics I thought would work best as a starter pack, for those who weren’t deep into the fandom, who were mostly familiar with canon only (rather than a lot of fandom trends), and who leaned towards more serious fics.  I think Thor/Loki especially will hit some of the same Obi-Wan/Anakin buttons, if you’re potentially into that pairing (if not, you’re going to want to pass this post by!) and I’m putting here, rather than my MCU blog because this is all stuff they’ll have seen before.  This is aimed at “So you want to get into this fandom but don’t know where to start, huh?  Let me try to help with that!” I will also include some fanart illustrations because a) I fuckin’ love fanart and b) there’s some gorgeous stuff and c) I think it helps to understand the appeal of “wait wtf where did Jotunn!Loki come from all of a sudden??” UNDER THE CUT:  Gen, Thor/Loki, Steve/Bucky - fic + art recs Mostly serious fic, a mix of serious/humor art, a good amount of NSFW fic/art I’ll write brief teaser recs but links will be provided for more full recs, when I can.

There will be a lot of recs here (and even more on this recs pages! but if you scroll through those pages (you’ll need to use Ctrl+F to find these specific ones if you want the full recs), keep in mind that they were a work in progress over a span of years, as well as aimed at people who regularly read in the fandom, and that I think these fics are best suited for drawing new readers in), but I chose ones that I felt could all be one of the first you pick up!  Still, I have a suggested starting place with three fics: START HERE: Bargaining by proantagonist, thor & loki + odin & loki + frigga & loki + other marvel characters, background refereneces to canon pairings, time travel, post-the dark world, some jotunn!loki, 110.4k      A genfic and it's really more about Loki and his issues with all his family but THIS FIC HOLY HELL, it made me cry at least three times and it's gorgeously written.  Post-TDW, Thor is dead and Loki absolutely loses his shit and all his issues with his family come tumbling out to slowly get fixed through time travel and worldbuilding and dealing with Jotunheim issues and magical deals with witches.  Novel-length and one of the best in the fandom. Bedding the Wolf by leonidaslion, thor/loki + implied background thor/sif, NSFW, dub-con edging on non-con, 13.4k      This is one of the earliest fics I read in the fandom and I've reread it a couple of times and it still hits me dead on EVERY TIME.  Post-first movie, this is ALL ABOUT Thor being smarter than Loki realizes and coming down on a vicious, bratty sub!Loki with a strong, iron hard dom hand.  It's fairly strongly dub-con and it's basically pwp, but it's one of my all time favorites. No Such Liberty by Xparrot, thor & loki + other asgardians + avengers + thanos, action fic, redemption fic, 147k     This one is primarily a Thor fic and was written pre-The Dark World and so takes a different path, but it's my favorite fic in that fandom.  It's got gorgeous worldbuilding, made me cry like three times over the Loki redemption stuff, and was just an incredible plot/action story when the Avengers all teamed up to fight Thanos. *After this point, you can pretty much throw a rock and whatever fic you hit, you can pick it up! SERIOUS FIC - GEN VERSION: God in the Machine: The Marachek Protocol by Mythtaken Identity (VR2LBast), natasha + avengers + loki, mild background pairings, egyptian mythology, action scenes, 99.6k      This fic is SO GOOD, it's primarily Natasha-centric, but it's got all the Avengers going up against Egyptian gods in an incredible plot fic.  It's novel length and it's just one of those that's incredibly SOLID. Ask Me No Questions by Alex51324, thor & loki + bruce & loki + tony + other avengers, depression, 55k      Loki is stripped of his magic and hit with a truth spell so he can't lie and has to stay with the Avengers and I remember it being a really satisfying Loki redemption fic.  He primarily interacts with Thor, Tony, and Bruce, all of which are really well done. Freefall + Landing by galaxysoup, thor & loki & avengers, 28k      It's been a long time since I read these, so I don't know how well they hold up, but they're more Loki + Avengers fic and I remember crying over them, because I had such strong feelings about the long, slow crawl towards redemption.  They're fairly famous in the fandom for good reason, imo! Rise From Ash by Mikkeneko, avengers + loki + other asgardians + thanos, some tony/loki, mildly nsfw for violence, some pyshical + psychological torture, angst, avengers!loki, 98k      An epic Loki + Avengers fic that's got a lot of horror elements and descent into madness that the fic does justice to.  It's a lot of plot and worldbuilding, a bit physical torture, a bit psychological torture, and very angsty.  it's an emotional wringer of a fic but so worth it. Road to Nowhere by Lise, thor & loki + frigga + other thor characters, thor 2 spoilers, action fic, quest fic, 27.2k      Genfic, but Thor and Loki on a roadtrip to save Frigga after TDW and it's lots of mythological worldbuilding and two brothers forced to rely on each other through magical trials, and maybe deal with their issues in an incredibly grudgingly way.  I'm biased because I beta'd for it, but it really is super good! SERIOUS FIC - THOR/LOKI VERSION: I actually have a “starter pack” recs list, but it’s like 30-40 fics long and that’s way too much to dump at once! dream state by bomb, thor/loki + thor/jane breakup + other marvel characters, NSFW, post-thor 2, prostitution, amnesia, 25.3k      The premise of this fic is kind of off the wall for something I take so seriously--a year after Loki's death, Thor sees someone who looks just like him on Earth and starts a relationship with him, but it is EXQUISITELY characterized, it's an incredible gem for being one of the best Thor characterizations in the fandom (IT SPOILED ME), for the weight of his character against the sharpness of Loki's, and it is beautifully written.  One of my all time faves. Make Me by Arkada, thor/loki, NSFW, dub-con, rough sex, bondage, bdsm, loki in chains, 4k      This is a darker fic, it's really rough sex with BDSM and consent issues.  Basically, Loki won't accept anything nice from Thor, so it has to be hard and rough and hurt before he'll take it.  So Thor gives him what he needs. Shorter but scorchingly hot. Postbellum by Shiny_n_new, thor/loki (pre-slash?) + odin & frigga + other thor characters, 22k      Written pre-TDW and is probably more gen than pairing, but the author ships it and so you can read undercurrents there.  Loki sits in his prison cell and seethes while Thor tries to make repairs--to Loki, to Jotunheim, to everyone.  It's really good Thor characterization in the background, but it's a fic that centers on Loki's fury and jealousy and trying to unknot it as best the author can. Wild Ambition Fortune's Ice Prefers by amberfox17, thor/loki & asgardians & frost giants, NSFW, jotunn!loki, arranged marriage, 199.7k      EVERYTHING by Amber is super worth reading, she writes amazing porn, but this is also her epic fic, where Loki was never taken to Asgard as a baby (this is a common theme in Thorki fandom, to get Jotunn!Loki, I'll dig up some fanart links to show you later) and when Thor has to make amends for starting trouble in Jotunheim, it kicks off a long, plotful, epic worldbuilding fic about the icy planet and these two learning to get along with each other and fall in love. Had we but world enough, and time by amberfox17, thor/loki, 14.6k      Hate and love are two sides of the same coin, and only require time for one to turn to the other. And what do gods have, if not time?Or, a story in three parts, of the past, present and future: how Lævatein was forged, taken and returned, how a relationship can be cracked, shattered and remade, and how Thor lost and found Loki time and time again. My Love Is Like To Ice, And I To Fire by amberfox17, thor/loki, NSFW, jotunn!loki, intersex!loki, 9k       Where Loki is stripped of his magic and forced into Jotunn form and it brings a lot of issues to a head.  It's only about 9k, but there's porn! Covenant by RobotSquid, thor/loki + odin + frigga + laufey, NSFW, divergent timeline, jotunn!loki (sort of), intersex!loki, secret relationship, 72.9k      I'm biased because this fic was written for me, but it's also gorgeous gorgeous worldbuilding and characterization.  When they're a little bit younger, they have to deal with the reveal of Loki's origins, which leads to them having to spend time there and it's primarily a fic dealing with Loki's issues of feeling unloved and hated, but has stellar Thor characterization in the background, as he's learning to be a future king, and so much incredible worldbuilding.  SO GOOD, I devoured it like you wouldn't believe. Shadow Plays by dreamlittleyo, thor/loki, NSFW, time loop, dub con, 24.4k      Another of the earliest fics I read in this fandom, so I'm not sure how well it'll hold up, because it might have been one that SET the mold rather than expanded it, but I remember really, really enjoying it.  Time loop fic where Thor's stuck and trying to figure his way out, trying to figure out how to save them all and deal with his anger towards Loki, and it's a really good use of the concept and satisfying porny resolution! Shatter by Aria, thor/loki + other thor characters, NSFW, 32k      Instead of Thor being banished to Earth, it's Loki... and then Thor comes along anyway and suddenly they have the breathing room and lack of tragedy to figure their shit out and eventually finally bang, it's a delight. Let slip the dogs of war by amberfox17, thor/loki, NSFW, dub con, rough sex, loki in chains, 5.3k      "In a world where mages must be kept chained and their magic bound: Loki is Thor’s dog of war, unleashed only in the most terrible of battles, and now Thor must deal with the aftermath of setting Loki’s seidr loose" -- aka, Thor's going to fuck the magical noise right out of feral!Loki's head and it's scorchingly hot. Caged by rainfall, thor/loki & asgard, NSFW, rough sex, pregnant!loki, 40k wip     This is one of those fics that may seem strange at the outset, but is fairly common in Thorki fandom--because Loki's a Frost Giant and we don't really know what that means, because comics!Loki is canon genderfluid (we have a lot of Lady Loki panels), because fandom Likes It, he's often written as intersex or just straight up able to get pregnant because Frost Giants Are Like That In Fandom.So, Loki's brought back post-first movie and he's furious and kept in a locked ivory tower and Thor goes to visit him and it's vicious but also they love each other and so eventually there's sex and it's a WIP that hasn't been updated in a long time but what's there is SO GOOD. Spoils of War by Fickle_Obsessions, thor/loki, NSFW, jotunn!loki, war prize!loki, dub con, rough sex, 9.8k      Fandom loves War Prize Jotunn!Loki with rough sex and, look, we all have our needs and this is one I really, really love a lot. Good Inside by glayish, thor/loki + thor/loki/mjolnir, NSFW, object insertion, mild bondage, dub-con, 7.4k      More rough sex that's kinda dub-con but in the way that it would be with them, also Mjolnir as a sex toy.  Scorchingly hot, too. feel my bones ignite by Lise, thor/loki, NSFW, rough sex, mild bdsm elements, 6.6k      More angry prison sex with some dom/sub elements and ridiculously hot sex. Covenant by Xero_Sky, thor/loki + other asgardians, NSFW, arranged marriage, post-avengers, 32.7k wip      "After Loki is brought back to Asgard for justice, he's somewhat appalled to find that his family still cares for him and worries about his well-being. Even worse, they have a cunning plan to keep him safe from Thanos and sort out the havoc he's been wreaking everywhere.  It works. And for one brief shining moment, Loki Is Happy. Naturally, it all goes downhill from there."  Arranged marriage fic that isn't at all fluffy or easy, it's difficult and unhappy and this is a WIP, but there's some good stuff already here that's worth reading for it, imo. Absolution by ladylapislazuli, thor/loki, arranged marriage, post-avengers, 54.2k      Another "Loki is forced to marry Thor to try to keep him contained and in Asgard" that should be silly and ridiculous but instead is heartwrenching and so, so good about digging into their issues and all the anger and hurt there.  It's a middle of the road kind of piece, not fluffy, but not tragic, and I respect it all the more for that.         STEVE/BUCKY: Out of the Dead Land by emilyenrose, steve/bucky, 62.7k      Oh, if you only read one Steve/Bucky fic, MAKE IT THIS ONE.  Post-TWS fic (not CW-compliant), Bucky tries to be Bucky again and it's a very difficult road and it was angsty and hard and so worth it and SO GOOD. The man on the bridge by boopboop, steve/bucky + tony + background pairings + avengers + other marvel characters, the winter soldier spoilers, 107.5k      This can be pretty controversial and I admit that I faded from Stucky fandom before it was finished, but I liked what was there.  Written in the aftermath of The Winter Soldier (so not CW-compliant) it's very angsty and a novel-length look at Steve/Bucky trying to come back to each other. This You Protect by Owlet, steve/bucky & avegers & ocs, 64.3k      While I wandered off for the follow-ups, they didn't feel the same as the first fic, this one is perfect exactly as it is--Bucky doesn't fully remember who he is, but his instincts to protect Steve cannot be overriden.  It's half parody, half serious, where Bucky Makes Friends With His Old People Neighbors and despairs every time Steve does something stupid and avoids him like the plague because he can't deal with his feelings, but still watches from afar.  It's GREAT. there's trees in the desert since you moved out by irnan, steve/bucky/natasha, 37k      I haven't read this one myself, but I've always liked irnan's fics and this one looks fantastic, a road trip where Steve/Bucky/Natasha work out their feelings.  (Bucky/Natasha is canon in the comics at many points, so a lot of people wanted it in the MCU, to go along with Steve/Bucky and Steve/Natasha.) sam deserves better than these assholes by lazulisong, steve/bucky + sam + natasha + other marvel characters, 10.7k      A series of fics where Sam Wilson really does deserve better than these two assholes.  I love lazulisong's writing, she really has a gift for comedic timing! Memory by emilyenrose, steve/bucky, 25.2k      Bucky working to try to remember who he is, it doesn't really go so well. your favorite ghost by augustbird, steve/bucky, 21k      I LOVE augustbird's writing, so another angsty post-TWS fic that's about the entire scope of Steve and Bucky's lives, the hard journey to bring Bucky home, is A+ for me. All The Leaves Are Brown (And the sky is gray) by AvocadoLove, bucky & tony + background steve/bucky, 17.4k      I don't remember there being much actual Stucky in this fic (though, the feelings are there) but Bucky's mission to kill Howard and Maria goes a little differently and instead he winds up with kidlet Tony on the run and it's SO GOOD.  Angsty plus cute kidlets, I DEVOURED IT.  (Everything I've ever read by AvocadoLove has been amazing, though.) HUMOR FIC: Majority Rule by Xparrot, thor & loki & avengers, humor, 2.4k     Also by Xparrot (I love everything by her!) it's short and hilarious and a great bit of funny cultural difference stuff with Thor and Loki and the Avengers. Big in Japan by gunboots     Avengers + Thorki, Tony brings back some dakimakura and it’s H I L A R I O U S. Teenage Dream by TheOtherOdinson     “Loki’s plan to invade Midgard is going perfectly - until his parents show up.” Aka, the one where Dad Odin and Mom Frigga show up and ruin their son’s takeover of Midgard, it’s HILARIOUS. Five Times the Villain's Weapon Didn't Work On Thor and the One Time It Did by TheOtherOdinson, thor + avengers + loki, humor, 3.9k     What it says on the tin and it’s delightful! I’m biased because I helped encourage it, but, no, it’s really great Thor FUN fic! Life of the Party by TheOtherOdinson, thor & loki + other asgardians, 2k     Loki tries to be a chaos shit stirrer at a party, and other people KEEP RUINING HIS FUN, it’s sharp and clever and delightful! You Shouldn't Have by TheOtherOdinson, thor & tony + thor & steve + thor & clint + thor & natasha + thor & bruce, humor, 2.1k     OKAY, LET ME EXPLAIN. One of the things I frequently talked about on Tumblr is how Asgard had the greatest decorative taste ever–everything is incredibly gold and tacky and they have water features everywhere. I LOVE IT. Also, Thor is 100% a troll that people never realize he’s doing it. These things combine into one of the most perfect fics I have ever read. Unforseen Side Effects by Fickle_Obsessions      Tony accidentally doses Thor and Loki with a drug that turns out to be an aphrodesiac. He sees more than he wants to. FANART: While the fandom is quieter today, the Thor fandom has a tremendous back archive of art, so much of it absolutely stunning and creative and wonderful! While I cannot possibly go through it all, I will at least get you started! wantstobelieve [thorki tag] does some of the most stunning artwork in the fandom, to the point that I honestly have trouble picking out favorites.  But this one is is ridiculously hot, this one is stunning  This one always hits me right in the dom/bratty sub kink, this one is a beautiful Loki piece, this one gives me all the feelings, this one is a gorgeous Jotunn!Loki, this one is is just lovely, this one is also right in the dom/sub kink, this one is a pretty Loki, this one is lovely and this one with Frigga and the kidlets is gorgeous. lohkaydraws [thorki tag] also does gorgeous work, this piece is a particular fave, but also this NSFW art is amazing. lousysharkbutt [art tag] does hilarity in Avengers fandom like no one else, this one is a favorite and this one makes me laugh every time.  Also, the best response to Civil War.  ALSO FAVE. yanagoya [loki tag] draws some of my favorite porn in the fandom, like, ever. Here and here and here and here.  All are NSFW.  Colors and smooth lines! bunnyxian [thorki tag] also does some great NSFW art--which all of these links are.  Here and here and here.  (Though, the layout makes them seem smaller than they are.  --in comparison, for example.) 10000ta [blog link] has drawn a bunch of gorgeou art for Thorki!  I’m not sure if everything of theirs is still up on their tumblr, but it’s probably floating around elsewhere, too.  A couple of faves are Egyptian Loki and Ragnarok Thorki. These two are also very nice!  --okay, yeah, I think their NSFW has moved but there’s this one and this one. horns-of-sin [blog link] is SUPER SUPER NSFW, beyond even the others! There’s a lot of Jotunn!Loki, some intersex!Loki, it’s split between solo!Loki and most of the popular Loki pairings.  It’s very pretty art (and such pretty colors!), but it’s very, very graphic and is striving to stick as many dicks into Loki as it possibly can, so be careful if you click it open! virushoney [art tag] does a lot of really beautifully colored, clean lined, super fucking cute art!  This one is a cool Jotunn!Loki, this one is a cute peacock!Loki, this one is a cute animal ears set, this one is more lovely Jotunn!Loki art, this one is godless-night [art tag] does some really pretty stuff, too.  This one is a nice Ragnarok-inspired one and this one is is lovely, but haunting. mokonosuke7 [art tag] can do some really beautiful stuff!  This one is a gorgeous Jotunn!Loki, this one is another stunning one, this one is is simple but lovely, this one is a stunning belly dancer Loki, this one has super pretty details! robinhess [blog link] has some lovely ones as well!  Here, here, here, here, and here are ones I remember from them! jiuge [blog link] does incredible pieces, too.  This one is a Mr. and Mrs. Smith parody, this one is is an incredible Jotunn!Loki, this one is the single most beautiful piece of Frigga art with kidlets that I have ever seen, this one is a lovely Thor/Loki piece, and this one is is another stunning Thor/Loki piece. derlaine [loki tag] does some of the funniest and/or most heartwarming art! This one is part one of Loki’s Childhood (a collection of all their Asgardian kidlet art and this one is part two! florbe-triz [art tag] also does really amazing art!  This one is gorgeous, this one is a great use of color, this one is possibly the best they’ve ever done, this one is a great kiss in the snow, this one is beautiful NSFW art, this one is gorgeous in this details, and this one is another stunning use of color.  If you want to go through and see everything for yourself, you’ll have to go about 12 pages back on their art tag to get to the Thor fandom stuff. Okay, honestly, just go through my Jotunn!Loki tag and you’ll see there’s far more amazing art than I could possibly all link to!  My Thorki tag is probably about 50% fanart (and the other half is fanedits and fic reblogs and such) if you want more!  This was meant to get a person started