#ALyear: 1834

[iredreamer]

Sorry to bother tour, but about "Anne getting naked only with Ann" from the gif, Did she really undress in front of her? Did was that written in the diaries?

That scene will be so intimate... I think I will cry when the scene happens.

hello, about my comment on the second gif here – I think in the series they're gonna show Anne completely giving herself to Ann and I do believe that it will happen only with Ann Walker. I hope the whole thing is gonna play out as a sort of proof of how much Anne really loves Ann (since – I guess – we will not see her getting this close with anyone else). I do remember an interview where Suranne and Sophie talk about this scene and how important it is in the context of the Ann(e)s relationship in the show.

In real life Anne completely gave herself to Ann – meaning she got naked with her in bed – only after Ann agreed to "marry" her.

Wednesday 12, February 1834 > Long capital grubblling so that little time for sleep – she is to give me a ring and I her one in token of our union as confirmed on Monday – breakfast at 9 – Washington came for a little while – Miss Walker’s maid not much fit for packing – I did it all – books and papers etc. etc. in abundance and had not done till 2 – then off to Shibden – Miss Walker ½ hour here with my aunt and a few minutes in my study and off again at 3 ¼ – I went with her in an hour (her own carriage and man and maid) as far as Kings’ Head Inn near Bradford – and walked back and came in at 5/50.. having sauntered up the fields – dinner at 6 ½ – coffee and then asleep on the sofa – with my aunt from 8 ¾ to 9 ¾ – then with my father and Marian and sat up talking till 10/50.. – Affectionate to Miss Walker and told her I should not be long without seeing her – she desired me not to write anything particular – she meant of affection – which I promised – I certainly feel fond of her now, and if I was once really near her (no drawers on) and she was pretty well satisfied I should be at ease – she has often said she wished to be near myself –  civil letter came this morning from Quillacq Calais, to say the plate was sent off to Laffitte's –  and tonight letter from Lady Harriet – vide Friday – fine day – a hail shower as I returned over the hills after leaving Miss Walker this evening F47° now at 11 p.m. – my cousin came gently just after breakfast – [SH:7/ML/E/16/0168]

The 27th of February is when they finally exchange rings, a gesture which tightens and confirms their union.

Thursday 27, February 1834 > No drawers on last night – first time and first attempt to get really near her [Ann Walker] – did not succeed very well, but she seemed tolerably satisfied – Rainy morning – could not have my own carriage, and [Meyers] could not get Miss Walker’s ready till 12 – breakfast at 9 ¾ – a little French – I ½ asleep over it – off to Langton at 12/50.. – damp rainy disagreeable day – She was poorly and tired tho she had got up so well this morning – I saw there was much nervousness about going to Langton but took no notice – I asked her to but [buy?] the gold wedding ring I wore and lent her six pence to pay me for it – she would not give it [to] me immediately but wore it till we entered the village of Langton and then put it on my left third finger in token of our union – which is now understood to be confirmed for ever tho little or nothing was said – At Langton at 3/05.. only Mrs. Norcliffe and Charlotte at home – surprised but very glad to see us, and very kind and attentive – CN [Charlotte Norcliffe] had heard of my arrival from Mrs. Milne – Mrs. Norcliffe now dines at 3, that we sat down to dinner in about ¼ hour – coffee – tea afterwards about 6 ¼ – Miss Walker much please with Mrs. Henry Robinson’s blazoning and with Miss Best’s drawings – our visit went off very well – all sides sufficiently pleased apparently – came away at 7/20.. and home at 9 ¾ – coffee – sat talking till 11 ¾ – glad we went – the Norcliffes very civil to her – her shyness went off and she seemed much pleased with her visit – Rainy day and evening – On the margin, in code, Anne notes: the ring [to] Miss Walker [SH:7/ML/E/16/0174]

Being near – for Anne – means to be completely naked during sex (she does specify when she keeps her drawers on).

Keep in mind tho that in real life Anne didn’t get naked only with Ann Walker. As I said, I think this will be different in the series and we’ll see Anne getting this close only with Ann, but let’s wait and see.

I hope I answered your question :) can’t wait to see that scene by the way, I’ll be like this 🤞🙏🏻 for the whole time praying it is gonna be glorious.

[iredreamer]

Somewhere you wrote that Ann Walker would lock away/hide Anne Listers diary so she would go to bed earlier. Does Anne mention this in her diaries?

This is one of the clearest examples where Anne Lister explicitly says that Ann Walker took the key of her study to make her earlier to bed (Anne Lister usually wrote in her study):

Tuesday 11, November 1834 > Fine day. Farenight 46° at 11 1/4 p.m. in my little dressing room – A- [Ann Walker] having taken away the key of my study that I could not get in – meaning to make me by these means earlier in bed. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0107]

And the next day has an interesting start:

Wednesday 12, November 1834 > Goodish kiss last night. Lay in bed an hour after A- [Ann Walker] & when she left the room to have Eugenie & finish dressing by the blue room fire, incurred a cross. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0107]

There are other diary entries where Anne Lister records that Ann Walker locked the door of her study, or locked her journal up, but in those cases it’s not clearly stated why Ann Walker did it.

[iredreamer]

So I have a question.. Maybe questionS. I often see diary entries where Anne Lister describes going to her own bed to sleep (this is obvs after she got married and Ann moved in) and I was wondering why. Was it really just bc of Ann's snoring? And also I'm assuming she goes to her old bedroom to sleep, since they had that new one made for the two of them. But I might be wrong. Help a confused lesbian out :D

Hello! What I can say to try and clear things up a little bit is this:

1. First thing you have to check when reading those entries is if they were travelling or not. Sometimes, when travelling, they weren’t able to book 1 room with a double bed and so they slept in different rooms (or just in separate beds), that’s why you can read that Anne goes to her own room/bed (usually after they had sex) or that AW goes to Anne (i.e. “she came to me”). Some examples of this can be found in June-August 1834 when Anne & Ann travelled, visiting France and Switzerland. When they sleep together again Anne writes:

Wednesday 27, August 1834 > Long good kiss last night slept together first time since Paris” [SH:7/ML/E/16/0080]

They arrived at Rochester the night before:

Tuesday 26, August 1834 > At Rochester at 9.35 – tea & [shrimps] & came up to bed at 11.05 – fine day till about 10 p.m. – then a little rain – slept with her & lay playing quietly at first. [SH:7/ML/E/16/0079]

2. Now, about them not sleeping together at Shibden; we can find an answer to this whole thing In Catherine A. Euler’s “Moving Between Worlds: Gender, Class, Politics, Sexuality and Women's Networks in the Diaries of Anne Lister of Shibden Hall, Halifax, Yorkshire, 1830-1840”:

Once they were “marred” (...) They almost always slept together in the same bed, except for one long period when Walker's snoring disturbed her so much Lister slept in the kitchen chamber.

Euler’s source for this statement is April 1837: 

Monday 10, April 1837 > Could not sleep for A-’s snoring all night – determined to sleep in the kitchen chamber. [SH:7/ML/E/20/0044]

Tuesday 11, April 1837 > Slept last night in the kitchen chamber and slept very well – 1st time of sleeping alone since A- [Ann] has been here. – Poor dear A-! Very lonely to be without her.

[how cute is she? she felt lonely without Ann by her side! I wanna cry, help me]

An entry from a couple of days later explains pretty well how things were going:

Friday 14, April 1837 > Meant to have slept with her last night. Had a goodish kiss – she inclined – & was dropping asleep when she snored, so I could not sleep. Got up & went to my own bed at twelve & a half & was just comfortable when I thought I heard her at my door. Jumped up & asked who was there – no answer – stood with my father’s pistols in my hand till I was cold, then thought A- would be frightened if she awoke & found me gone so crept back to her but no sleep. She snored so at three therefore went back to the kitchen chamber & slept without awaking till eight. [SH:7/ML/E/20/0046]

“Meant to have slept with her last night” – Sleeping alone in the kitchen chamber was not Anne’s first choice. Anne wanted to sleep with Ann but, after they had sex, she decides to go to her own bed because Ann “snored” and she “could not sleep”. At some point in the night AL goes back to AW to sleep with her but then AW “snored” so AL “went back to the kitchen chamber” – clearly the “kitchen chamber” was “Anne’s bedroom” or at least the place where she usually went to sleep when she wasn’t sleeping with AW. A kitchen chamber [1] was basically a sort of back room / secondary bedchamber, I’m pretty sure that’s where Anne goes to sleep when she says “went to my own bed” or something along those lines.

To sum it up: when Anne decided to not sleep with Ann it was because Ann snored too much.

This is all I know! I hope I answered you! Have a good day : )

[1] It seems to have been a spare room. Kitchen chambers were just bedrooms and bedrooms were always on the second (or third) floor (when there was one). It was called a “kitchen chamber” a bedroom that lined up with (or was connected to) the kitchen on the first floor. [Common Places: Readings in American Vernacular Architecture; The gentleman's magazine, Volume 33]

[iredreamer]

Hey! What are some of the most sexually explicit things Anne wrote in her diary?? 🙊🙊

fiercepixie7 asked: Thank you for sharing your information on Anne’s journal. She’s a fascinating lady. Are there any particularly ‘sexy’ bits in Anne’s diary that you could share?

So, about this, I thought about how to answer this for the longest time because, well, well, well we could stay here an eternity I guess… The easy answer is, just open a random journal page and read the coded parts, chances are that you’re gonna end up reading a sexy bit lol

This post is gonna be…

…so, if sexually explicit stuff/language makes you uncomfortable, well, then, don’t read this.

The quotes are gonna be about Mrs Barlow and Ann Walker because those are the two periods of AL’s life I’ve been mostly interested in.

Sunday 14, November 1824 > Touched her flesh just above the knee twice. I kissed her [Maria Barlow] warmly & held her strongly. She said what a state I was putting myself into. She got up to go away & went to the door. I followed. Finding she lingered a moment, pressed her closely & again tried to put my hand up her petticoats. Finding that she would not let me do this but still that she was a little excited, I became regularly so myself. I felt her grow warm & she let me grubble & press her tightly with my left hand whilst I held her against the door with the other, all the while putting my tongue into her mouth & kissing her so passionately as to excite her not a little, I am sure. [No Priest but Love - SH:7/ML/E/8/0078]

Monday 20, December 1824 > Then knelt down by her [Maria Barlow] – kissed her – put my left hand on her left breast & at last by dint of management took three pins out & finally got the nipple into my mouth & sucked it for perhaps as much as ten minutes. [SH:7/ML/E/8/0102]

Friday 21, January 1825 > She [Maria Barlow] bade me put her in the position I liked best, she then lay all her length upon me, the tops of our two queers in contact. Then she lying on her left side with my right thigh between hers. She said it should be the other on which I put the left thigh between hers and got as near to her as I durst not to be in danger of infecting her with my complaint… Throw down the clothes and look[ed] at her in the full light. I told her I had no idea she was so pretty there it was the prettiest part about her. It really is very pretty, quite black and round and fat and very nicely formed. – I have told her since that the prettiest part of her is quite hid. [SH:7/ML/E/8/0118]

Thursday 24, February 1825 > I put my face to her [Maria Barlow] & twice got queer into my mouth & just sucked the tip of it. [SH:7/ML/E/8/0130]

Saturday 26, February 1825 > I began to handle her & look at her [Maria Barlow] – licked a little bit of her queer opened her with my finger & slavered into her then grubbled looking all the while & gave her a good excitement. Before all this she herself had awaked me – lain on me & tried to see how I could get myself near her. I played sometime with only my shift parting me from her lying just as I should do for a kiss… She was evidently in a state of great excitement. She several times bade me go on & not be afraid & told me to do as I always did – I found she meant move my finger rapidly up & down. [SH:7/ML/E/8/0130]

Thursday 4, October 1832 > I had my arm on the back of the sofa – she leaned on it – looked as if I might be affectionate, & it ended in her lying on my arm all the morning & my kissing her & she returning it with such a long continued passionate or nervous mumbling kiss – that we got on as far as we, by day-light, mere kissing, could – I thinking to myself, ‘Well, this is rather more than I expected – of course she means to take [me]’… She asked me to dine with her at five & stay all night – I promised the former… Thought I, ‘I see I shall get all I want of her person [body], if I stay all night’… Afterwards drew near to each [other] & she sat on my knee & I did not spare kissing & pressing she returning it as in the morning… We were so affectionate – we let the lamp go out – long continued (mumbling moist) kissing, I prest her bosom – then finding no resistance & the lamp being out – let my hand wander lower down, gently getting to [her] queer – still no resistance – so I whispered surely she could care for me some little? [Nature’s Domain - SH:7/ML/E/15/0126]

Thursday 11, October 1832 > As it became dusk we crept closer & I without any resistance got, for the first time, right middle finger up her queer at three separate times. She [Ann Walker] nothing loath but evidently excited, liking it & wet & taking it altogether as if she had learnt her lesson before in this way too as well as kissing. She whispered that she loved me. [SH:7/ML/E/15/0131]

Monday 15, October 1832 > I undressed in half hour & then went to her room. Had her [Ann Walker] on my knee a few minutes & then got into bed – she making no objection – & staid with her till twelve & three quarters grubbling gently – right middle finger up almost all the time. Made two or three attempts to get myself quite near her, but somehow could not manage it & she seemed so tender & able to bear so little (I think she was more intact & innocent & virginal than I had latterly surmised) that I contented myself with handling her gently & love making. She feared she should never be able to satisfy me. On leaving her, my night things so wet obliged to take them off & sleep in my dressing gown. She whispered to me in bed how gentle & kind I was to her & faintly said she loved me or else “how can you think” said she “that I should let you do as you do?”. [SH:7/ML/E/15/0132]

Friday 26, October 1832 > Grubbling till late & gave her [Ann Walker], as she owned, pleasure tired as she was not too tired for that at it again before eight in the morning & left our bed sheets (she came & slept with me) quite wet our night linen being ditto. The house maid being a widow might suspect what had been going on. [SH:7/ML/E/15/0135]

Monday 10, February 1834 > She [Ann Walker] was, at first, tired & sleepy but by & by roused up & during a long grubbling, said often we had never done it so well before. I was hot to washing tub wetness & tired before it was half over. We talked & never slept till five. [Gentleman Jack: The Real Anne Lister - SH:7/ML/E/16/0167]

Thursday 31, July 1834 > Miss W– came to me at eight & ten minutes. Had shewed me her bosom & on my asking her took off her night things & stood naked so then got into bed & we had a kiss. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0066]

more here & here.

Y’all please feel free to reply/reblog with more sexy bits from AL’s journal ;)

[iredreamer]

Anne Lister’s diaries archive

For anyone who’s interested in seeing and reading (or at least trying to read) the actual Anne Lister’s diaries, the Huddersfield University and the West Yorkshire Archive Service have all her diaries (and other notes and papers). The quality is not always the best (some scans aren’t in HD) and Anne’s handwriting is really really bad at times (I absolutely can’t make out her plain hand)... You can find the Anne Lister’s collection > here & here

^ 5th of January 1834 and 6th of January 1834 (SH:7/ML/E/16/308)

I tried to decode some of the passages just for fun, a couple from 1832 (when Anne was courting Ann Walker), one from 1834 (the day of their reunion) and one from 1838 (their fourth anniversary).

^ October 3, 1832 > Lay awake an hour & a half thinking of Miss Walker. I really do get more & more in love with her not perhaps heightened by the having to wait her answer for the next six months – she has really behaved judiciously for I believe she likes me. (SH:7/ML/E/15/0125)

^ October 13, 1832 > Miss W– looked with a long face on my talking of going – in fact it is plain she likes me. She said what confidence she felt attached to me. I talked of the continent in a style of observation, amusing & rather exciting she lay down & I leaned over her kissing her as usual. After tea got more affectionate but on gently putting my hand up her petticoats she whispered “Don’t” & I desisted – she said I don’t know how she had suffered from it the other night – had not got the better of it yet – she was very tender there – I talked soothingly & affectionately, said how gentle I would be, expressed my anxiety for her health & she said she would go with me to York this month – she always sleeps with Catharine Rawson – goes to her (?) I joked & wanted her to come to me on Monday – “No, not then, it would not do” it would be better when we went to York – to sleep at Tadcaster going & returning. “Oh, oh” thought I, then we must get off – I must get my ordeal over (?) & let her try me & see whether I can make her happy enough or not. (SH:7/ML/E/15/0132)

^ January 6, 1834 > At twelve last night felt her on the amoroso. She thought me asleep and I pretended to be so till my fondness seemed to awake me. Pressed and partly grubblied and held her near me but had on my drawers – in fact I had as much a kiss as possible without absolute contact.(SH:7/ML/E/16/308)

^ February 10, 1838 > Plum pudding today - it struck me it was the tenth - the fourth anniversary of my connection, union (?) with A-. She had remembered to order the pudding yet to me made no allusion to the day. The thing struck me – how odd – said I to myself. (SH:7/ML/E/21/0040)

The code used by Anne (if you wanna decode bits of the diaries)

EDIT: if you’re having trouble navigating the archives.

[iredreamer]

I know you’ve posted before how Anne & Mariana spent Christmas together in 1834 and that Mariana tempted Anne unsuccessfully, but have you read Moving Between Worlds? Because the author (excerpting diaries) states plainly that kissing/ grubbling did occur during Anne’s visit (12/24/1834 diary entry: “gratify her passion by one parting grubble”). I take you to be the master at all things real life Anne Lister and Ann Walker so I wanted to get your input. THANK YOU for all your posts, seriously!!

hey :) thank you so much for your message! Yes I’ve read Moving Between Worlds, and I’ve also checked Anne’s diary (from the 22nd of December – when she arrives at Lawton – to the 26th – when she goes back to Shibden) to understand better what happened.

I transcribed AL’s coded parts where she talks about what happened with Mariana during those days. At the end you’ll find what I personally think of this whole thing.

EDIT: I updated the post with parts – coded and not – that even tho are not directly about what happened between them, still help understand the context and what went on during those days. I think that the context and the conversations Mariana & Anne had during this time are quite important to understand why some things happened. The only things I left out in my transcriptions are stuff like “I went from there to there, we visited this lady etc.”, things that are quite mundane.

December 22, 1834 (Monday) > (…) at Lawton at 9 – i.e. 8 ¾ by their clocks – Shewn into M-’s [Mariana] room. And she soon came nervous sobbing, but she got over it pretty soon and well – Had a couple of nice little mutton chops, and then coffee – Mr. L- [Charles Lawton] just came in for a minute or 2 but finding we were still going to have coffee said he had had tea, went back to the dining room and we saw him no more – M- [Mariana] and I sat talking till 11.35 by Halifax – She gave me the history of Martha Booth – not good – her head full of novels that she had read before coming to M- [Mariana] – and her principles spoilt by the bad examples of 2 succession cooks – had been deceitful – was too much set up – Mrs. Duff to give me Martha’s character – M- [Mariana] not to tell me anything – I said if Martha left here, I should have nothing more to say to her – M- [Mariana] then gave me the history of Miss Crewe (…) I never felt less in love’s danger. I thought M- [Mariana] prosy but this was better than the way she talked in at first, despairing & as if the sooner she died the better – she would not listen to my proofs that she herself had had things between us all her own way, however I would not give up the point tho’ I pressed it gently – I was very affectionate, spoke kindly of Mr. Crowe & said I would do anything in the world I could for her but there was no love in my manner or thoughts – I merely thought I was glad this was at an end & that I was as I was – Talked of the Norcliffes & Mrs. Milne’s sarcastic manner which seems to have shewn itself to M- [Mariana] at Scarbro – M- [Mariana] said she always appeared to know all about me whether she did know anything or not – She had talked at Leamington of her great anxiety to see Lady Vere as the most particular friend of her, M- [Mariana] most particular friend! I have guessed right, M- [Mariana] does not want to love the eclat of my friendship (…) M- came upstairs with me to my room & staid ten minutes – a little nervous again & hung on me & went off, talks of giddiness in her head & not living long but I said I should do her good, in fact as I shrewdly hinted I shall not be the death of her. Thank God I am as I am. I thought very little of M- as I came along & never felt more calm – Very fine day – till one tonight wrote all but the five first lines of the day – till 1 ½ wrote 2 pp. to A- [Ann Walker] to go tomorrow – account of my journey – good account of things. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0127]

December 23, 1834 (Tuesday) > (Go by the Lawton clocks) breakfast at 10.20 – then sat talking till 12 – from 12 to 2 walked (about 2 miles) to see a poor man (James Shaw) confined to his bed these 30 weeks for having fallen into a hot salt pan – Luncheon with Mr. L- [Charles Lawton] in his room (I not eating) then sat talking in M-‘s [Mariana] sitting room – Out at 4, for 40 minutes (…) then sat talking in my dressing room till 5.40 – dressed – dinner at 6.10 – coffee – tea… came upstairs at 10 ½ and M- [Mariana] sat with me ½ hour – sealed and gave her my letter written last night to A- [Ann Walker], Shibden, to be put into the post before 9 a.m. tomorrow – annoyed this morning to find I was too late for today’s post – the letters must be there at 9, and the mail goes at 10 – Told M- [Mariana] she had never come to me to see if I was up this morning, she said she would but thought I should not like it – I was rather attendrie this morning, particularly after our walk – She told Mr. Crewe had been with her at Scarbro, glad I had not heard of it in York & that she herself was first to tell me of it – He had said he hoped to her happy with the friend she liked best staying with her at Warmingham, meaning to have me with them – I asked if she did not think this speech plain enough – she said it had not struck her much but at last owned it was pretty plain tho she still says she never was in love with him & wonders if she ever shall be – I calmly said “Oh, yes all that would come” – she told me Mr. C- [Crewe] was very calm on that subject – in telling her a story of a chère amie [dear friend] of Brooke? Grevilles said but he & his friend could very well do without those domestic comforts – she still persists that all her love is for me – I led the conversation to A- [Ann Walker], said I really liked [her], was more than comfortable & that whatever might be said money had nothing to do with it – M- [Mariana] asked if it was true that she had three thousand a year – I said no, but our fortunes would be about equal & that we should have five thousands a year – said I had thought of her the first thing after M-’s [Mariana] break off – I was thankful things were as they were for I was determined to have one & certainly could not have done better – Charlotte said A- [Ann Walker] was not ladylike & she & Mrs. Milne thought she [Mariana] should not be flattered if she saw her successor, but that I could not do without money – M- [Mariana] took all well – said she thought I had done right & perhaps she herself was the cause of it, they wondered – Mr. C- [Crewe] does not like Mrs. Milne – she behaved sarcastically & he expected better things after all the trouble he had taken about Hamlyn – He wished M- [Mariana] to get her uncle & Lou to go to Geneva next summer. M- [Mariana] to join them & then he & his two boys would join them all at Geneva & make a tour for with her uncle there could be nothing wrong. I made no remark. But this explained the passage she read from Lou’s letter that came today, that with a little persuasion she thought her uncle might be got to go to Geneva tho she had preferred Scotland on account of not leaving her mother so far –  This proves M- [Mariana] had thought of the plan & seriously too – perhaps she wished to sound me, what will the world say? She protests she feels towards only as a brother – well nous verrons [we’ll see] – I told her that but for him I might have acted differently – said I read her last letter to A- [Ann Walker] but she did not understand it – I had told all that was necessary but not quite all, that is not of our connection – nor did any know of this or ever would – This seemed to satisfy her – Said I was not quite satisfied with her brother’s conduct about Clifton to his mother in paying with so much difficulty, nor with his management of his wife & that he had latterly left A- [Ann Walker] ten days unvisited by him – but this not to be named any more than the brandy & water drunk by Miss. Bagshaw at Mrs. Bewleys – M- [Mariana] has seemed low today at intervals – it seems she does not now like Mrs. Wilbraham who has interfered with the friendly society etc. Mr. C- [Crewe] says how worldly they all are & he cannot endure them – somehow I do not like him – M- [Mariana] says Mr. C- [Crewe] was never conscious of his feelings towards till L-’s [Charles Lawton?] conduct to him at Mr. Woodsin – 1831 – I cannot quite understand M- [Mariana] – she shews me she is still in love with me – I might have her as heretofore without much difficulty. She says she is glad to see me but talks of the difference there is when my interest is hung on another peg – I asked tonight if I was not as much attached & as affectionate as she wished me to be – she made no answer – I pressed her to say yes & she merely replied “yes, you are very affectionate” – she has kissed me as warmly as she dared venture & given me licence enough if I chose to take it, but in answer “do you love me” my “yes indeed I do” bespoke nothing beyond friendship. The fact is I am really indifferent to her – but she would lead me astray if she could – She will send a present to A- sorry I had proposed it as it was her own intention – L- [Charles Lawton?] & I very good friends but no more – very fine frosty day – no use to look at my thermometer – my dressing room having a good fire in it – wrote all the above of today from 11 ½ to 12 ½ tonight. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0128]

December 24, 1834 (Wednesday) > Fine soft morning – jumped up at 8 ½ on M-‘s [Mariana] coming to call me; and we sat talking in my dressing room ¾ hour (…) M- [Mariana] and I then sat talking in her sitting room till 1 – Luncheon with C- [Charles Lawton]. Letter 3 pp. and 1st page crossed (nice, kind, chit-chat letter) from A- [Ann Walker] her aunt all kindness, but nothing transpired about the contents of her sister’s letter – my aunt not so well as when I left her – if worse would write by the next post – if no letter here, wishes me to call (en passant) at the post office at Manchester – M- [Mariana] and I came and sat talking in my dressing room till 2 – she asked to look at the handwriting and I read her the letter, she looking over me, she said it was a nice simple minded letter – she was better satisfied to have seen it – M- [Mariana] and I went out at 2 to see poor old Molly Owen at the Lodge… and then walked about home till 4 ¾ – Much talk about Mr. Crewe to whom for short I gave the name of short – spoke of Micklestone (pronounced Muckstone) & her living there & our all meeting – she said we should be an odd quartette but seemed in tolerable spirits saying she should now try to turn her thoughts that way – glad to have seen me, for till she saw me, could scarce believe things really as they are – she wondered if she could ever love him, perhaps it would come but thought she should feel as if she was breaking the seventh commandment – very well satisfied with A- [Ann Walker] – should like her all the daytime, could not bear her at night, could not bear to see her go off to bed with me – I kindly parried all this – she said if she had not seen me now perhaps we might have not met again – owned it was much better to have met – I told her & explained quietly that it was all her own doing, that no human influence could have done it but her own – spoke highly of A-’s [Ann Walker] high principle & honorable feeling & that even in any case if it cost me life itself I would not willingly give her up easiness she trusted me & she was right if I could do so much in this case what could I not have done in another, but she, M- [Mariana], had never understood me – I was never half as bad as she thought me – Home at4 ¾ and sat talking inmy dressing room till 5 ½ (…) Told M- [Mariana] servants would always be left in the house at Shibden – if ever she wanted a place to go to, the house would always be at her service – but said gently I would rather she was there alone supposing I was absent – she said she should take Louisa or Ann [Mariana’s sisters] – said I had never liked her family and was sorry for it, but somehow I never could get over my feeling of dislike – I certainly owed them nothing & she said she certainly owed them nothing – dressed – dinner at 6.20 (…) on our leaving the dining room M- [Mariana] and I soon came to my dressing room – She being so low she could not stand it – drank cold water sobbed & was almost in hysterics. Then asked if I loved her “yes” said I “you know I do” we then kissed – our lips seeming glewed together & somehow tongues meeting. She sobbed & said “it is hard, very hard, to be a friend for one who has been a wife” – I was attendrie – we both cried our eyes nearly when we were obliged to go down to tea after nine. She came for a few minutes on going but was quite upset I had to go for Watson to call Eugenie & saw M- [Mariana] almost undressed – I just kiss the back of her neck & came away for she seemed worse seeing me again. It occurs to me that I inadvertently kissed her rather too warmly just after dinner. Was it this that upset her for the night? it is very sad – I am very sorry but my own indifference makes me safer that she thinks. I advised her this morning not to meet Mr. C- [Crewe] at Geneva better go with A- [Ann Walker] & me than anyone I had thought of taking Mr. Brown for A-’s drawing if so M- [Mariana] might return with him, but what I could do very uncertain. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0128 & SH:7/ML/E/17/0129]

December 25, 1834 (Thursday) > M- [Mariana] came a little before eight & staid till nine in bed with me – rather in the pathetics – she cannot get over her love for me – but I behaved with perfect propriety. She said “well” if anything happened to A- [Ann Walker] & Mr. C- [Crewe] would I take her back again – I made no answer till she said “would I not” when I replied “I would not shut the door against you” on which she thanked me & said I was very good. (…) Letter from A- [Ann Walker] (Shibden) my aunt better – 3 pp. widely written – nice letter – properly affectionate – wants me back again – (…) M- [Mariana] said nothing & L- [Charles Lawton] said he [Crewe?] was a scoundrel, of which nobody apparently took any notice – M- [Mariana] mentioned it when we came up to bed, seemed low & nervous, I tried to cheer her – advised her going to London to her uncle & Louisa for a week to see little M- till she told me the history at length of L- [Charles Lawton] & Eliza Lawton – then told her not to be away – said I saw her mind wavered about leaving L- [Charles Lawton] but that she must not do it unless he compelled her for refusing to have the girl to live with them or unless something between him & the girl came out – she had taxed with it, with what the girl said & he declared it was a lie – the girl did not like to be alone with him – he out his tongue unto her moth [mouth?]  which, said M- [Mariana], is you know, the last thing, but one to which I agreed – we talked of how the girl’s mind might be debauched till M- began kissing me & we got on to such tongueing warm work that she got excited. I kept my hands over her clothes & my arms decently round her till the right wandered to queer outside till she took up her petticoats & put it to her & I gave her a thorough grubbling – I think she will have her cousin for it – I certainly felt oddish but no wish to be near to her myself, tho she said in the midst “can you not come near to me for a minute or two” I made no reply but went on never opening my eyes. She asked if I loved her, I merely said “yes”. When I did look at her it was in silence neither as if ashamed nor as if attendri nor caring much. I was grave & silent. She said she was better & hoped I should have a good night. What is the meaning of all this? Can this be the conduct of a pure minded virtuous woman! I despise it – she had tried all ways to upset me – I have done what I have done, but she shall never gain more nor ever I hope a repetition ever of this. I could have done without it but somehow I thought gratify her passion by one parting grubble. It ought not to have been but I will try to turn it to some good account by telling her I shall shew her letters & by keeping out of her way – my respect is gone. – She read me Mr. C-’s [Crewe] last letter long & written at different times according to her request nothing absolutely improper might be read aloud but the understanding between them is evident – How will it end? He is a gambler – I told her today I did not think that right & I was sorry for it – She send’s A- [Ann Walker] little pocket book yet she will try to lead me astray from her! But she shall do no worse & I hope & trust the scene of tonight cannot recur. Is this the chaste & quiet M- [Mariana]? I will keep out to her way & Mr. C–’s [Crewe] too as well as I can. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0129 & SH:7/ML/E/17/0130]

December 26, 1834 (Friday) > Had slept in my clothes – M- [Mariana] came before eight & leaned or lay on the bed till I got up – I don’t think she found out that I was not undress, my night chemise hid all that she seemed in good spirits – said she had had a very good night & hoped I had had one too. I said not much on this part of the subject – she saw that I did not think of last night’s business quite as she did I said let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall – she seemed rejoiced at the sort of victory she thought she had gained & argued against my fancying there was any wrong in it – said it had done her good & she was now much happier – begged me not to abuse her in my heart. I said as little as possible not troubling myself to knock down her arguments but saying the only thing I had thought of as a consolation was the telling her I should show all my letters to A- [Ann Walker]. She made no objections, in fact she could not well make any, she was satisfied to have found as she thought that all her influence over me was not gone – she little dreampt the real state of the case, she had fallen in my opinion she had been too much in the style of Mrs. Milne & I mean to be as little in her way as possible in time to come. She said she still could believe herself belonging to anyone but me – the night before last she had left me in an agony quite wet thro & ill – last night she was calmer & could have done without it if I had not been different. I said nothing against all this but let it pass – she said I do not know what it is was to be obliged to restraint where formerly she had only to ask & have, I merely said I saw how she was on Wednesday night & was on my guard – last night I was off my guard & etc. etc. (…) Went down to breakfast at 11 – Mr. L- [Charles Lawton] had waited to wish me good bye – never so attentive before… off from Lawton at 11.50 (…) and at Shibden at 10.55 – all gone to bed but Cordingley and John expecting me, had come down – A- [Ann Walker] jumped up – and came to me in her dressing gown and cloak, delighted to see me back again – had given up in despair – had tea – the first thing we did was to laugh aloud at her droll figure and the bustle I had made – explained, sat talking – Told her I myself was astonished how little I had thought of M- [Mariana] either going or returning. Very glad to be back again. Mentioned how I had offered her the use of Shibden in the event of L-’s [Charles Lawton] death etc. etc. –   [SH:7/ML/E/17/0130 & SH:7/ML/E/17/0131]

Anne Lister goes back to Shibden the 26th. She’s happy to be back and tells AW that she “was astonished how little I had thought of M- either going or returning. Very glad to be back again.” and then she and AW have sex: “One very good kiss after getting into bed & not long after this another not quite so good but very fair.” (December 27, 1834 – Saturday)

So, to wrap this up… Mariana tries to have sex with AL everyday while they’re together, and AL tries her best to stay away (and I mean, they do what they do but they don’t have sex?? at least for Anne’s way of thinking). Anne writes how indifferent she is to it all and that basically she doesn’t even know why she gave in to Mariana’s attentions (and she doesn’t really seem into it anyway). What I think is this: I see it as a moment of weakness, their relationship is so complex and their dynamic is just so established that I think it was easy for Anne Lister to fall in the old ways with Mariana just because it was what she was used to. Doesn’t seem to me that AL was very happy with what happened, with Mariana’s behaviour or her own behaviour. I’m also very curious about why, in everything I’ve read by any historian, everyone says that AL stayed faithful to Ann Walker, clearly no one considered this thing with Mariana an important fact…

The situation between them was quite complex. There are a lot of grey areas, there is a lot of history between them, and as always Mariana has a strong hold on Anne. We’re talking about real people here, with complex feelings, with contradictory feelings. It is very hard to say one thing or the other about this matter, there is so much complexity in their relationship, in what happens and in what Anne feels that I think that reducing everything to “she was faithful” or “she wasn’t faithful” is not the right way to deconstruct/understand the whole thing.

[iredreamer]

Hi! First of all, thank you so much for all the time you take to thoroughly answer all the Anne Lister/Gentleman Jack questions. I'm sorry if this is very explicit, but I saw your posts about grubbling and oral sex, and I wondered about all the times Lister talks about 'being near'. Is she referring to tribadism? Does she write about it in more detail at some point?

I’m super okay with explicit asks, don’t worry, no need to apologize :)

Some passages from Anne’s journal that (I think) are good to understand this whole thing:

Friday 21, January 1825 > “She bade me put her in the position I liked best, she then lay all her length upon me, the tops of our two queers in contact. Then she lying on her left side with my right thigh between hers. She said it should be the other on which I put the left thigh between hers and got as near to her as I durst not to be in danger of infecting her with my complaint.” *[SH:7/ML/E/8/0118]

[*during that time Anne had a STI (that she got from Mariana) that’s why she writes “as near to her as I durst not to be in danger of infecting her with my complaint”]

Friday 26, February 1825 > “(she) lain on me & tried to see how I could get myself near her. I played sometime with only my shift parting me from her, lying just as I should do for a kiss.” [SH:7/ML/E/8/0130]

February 27, 1834 > “No drawers on last night - first time and first attempt to get really near her - did not succeed very well, but she seemed tolerably satisfied.” [from Gentleman Jack. The Real Anne Lister]

“being near” for sure included being naked and it also implies a “physical proximity”. Considering that “being near” was “necessary” to “have a kiss”, considering what “having a kiss” meant for Anne and analyzing the: “lying just as I should do for a kiss” or simply reading the: “she then lay all her length upon me, the tops of our two queers in contact”, it’s safe to say that for Anne “having a kiss” (orgasm) was linked to a specific sex position that included “being connected” or “being near” to her lover (with usually Anne’s lover on top of her). I think that from all this we can deduce that she is referring to tribadism.

I hope I answered your question :) If you wanna know more about Anne’s sex life or the terms she used to describe what she did etc. etc., I have a tag for it: #anne lister: sex life

[iredreamer]

Hey not sure if you saw the recent interview sally did! But she was sorta spoilish on what the plans are for gentlemen jack season 2! What stuck out to me was how she said she might do some big tweaking such as aunt Anne and captain Listers death, she said she likes them too much to kill them off (I’m on board for that). Thoughts on that? Also said season 2 will start with the honeymoon, wondering if you could share info on Anne and Ann’s honeymoon? Thanks, you’re my fav GJ blog!

Hey, I don’t think I saw that interview (I had a really busy week and missed all the info about GJ lol) can someone link it to me? I did read that she’s reading the 1834 diary and she thinks about doing another 18 months for the second season (she also said she thinks they’ll start filming in May of next year so…before 2021 we’ll have NOTHING, I wanna cry).

Like you, I’m fine with aunt Anne and captain Listers not dying and I’m also on board if Sally changes other bits of the story. I don’t think she has to be always extremely accurate, it’s a tv show, not a documentary. It’s nice that everything is inspired by a true story but I’m okay with changes if they’re good.

About the honeymoon period, if Sally is referring to what Jill Liddington calls their “honeymoon” then she’s talking about February 1834. But she could also be talking about the trip the Ann(e)s took from June till August that year. They travelled for three months, visiting France and Switzerland. From Female Fortune: “The two women made their way to Paris and then south-east towards the Alps” on their way back “They returned to Paris, arriving in London on 27 August; they travelled all night & arrived back at Shibden early the following morning. Here they immediately encountered domestic irritations – particularly Ann Walker’s aunt who roundly scolded her niece. But such rebukes were too late to be affective. Ann Walker would now live at Shibden Hall.” If she’s talking about that period as their honeymoon then I hope we’ll get to see them in Paris! In the posts I linked you’ll find more info about those two periods, here some diary entries from June and July 1834 that I transcribed and found interesting or cute or funny lol

Mon. 16, June 1834 > A kiss last night at two or three trials for the bed so small almost tumbling out & afterwards went to my own bed & slept alone. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0043] 

Sat. 26, July 1834 > Her bedstock screaked so that the people in the adjoining room being up I put Miss W–’s bedding on the floor & we had a good long kiss – about three quarters hour with her. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0063]

Thur. 31, July 1834 > Miss W came to me at eight & ten minutes had shewed me her bosom & on my asking her took off her night things & stood naked so then got into bed & we had a kiss. [SH:7/ML/E/17/0066]

I’m gonna be honest, I just wanna see Anne Lister putting Ann Walker’s bedding on the floor so that they can have sex, come on this is gold!!!! Sally I just want that scene, listen to my prayers and don’t let me down.

[iredreamer]

Hi I wonder if AL and AW celebrate their anniversaries throughout their marriage? I read they had plum pudding the first year and got the impression it became a tradition. By the way, enjoy your insights and perspective on Gentleman Jack and AL/AW. Thanks for the wonderful inputs.

hey :) yes! they did celebrate their anniversary! apparently they considered the 10th of February as the date of their anniversary because it was the day (10th of February 1834) they decided to commit to each other (they exchange rings the 27th of February and then take the sacrament together the 30th of March).

Okay so, starting from 1834, let’s see what Anne Lister writes the 10th of February of every year! I’ve decoded the coded parts, if she writes about their anniversary not in code it will not be included here (unless the transcript for that day is in some of the books I read) because I don’t understand her plain hand, not one bit, so I can’t transcribe it (she also wrote in heavily abbreviated English so...impossible for me to understand it like 90% of the time). In any case, I’m gonna link the diary page (if you want to try and read her plain hand to see if she says something more about the anniversary) and I’m gonna link the source/sources when the diary entry is from a publication/book.

February 10, 1834 > Better make up her mind at once, or what could I do? She [Ann Walker] agreed & It was understood that she was to consider herself as having nobody to please & being under no authority but mine – to make her will right directly, & on returning from France & on my aunt’s death, then to add a codicil leaving me a life estate in all she could & I would do the same to her. Well then is it really settled or not? I am easy about it & shall prepare for either way. (Margin: Settled with Miss W-?) [SH:7/ML/E/16/0168]

February 10, 1835 > A- and I had excellent plum pudding today in commemoration of the first anniversary of being together so comfortably and so happily – may we live to enjoy many more such anniversaries! [Gentleman Jack: The Real Anne Lister & Moving Between Worlds] [This is not written in code as you can see here SH:7/ML/E/17/0161]

February 10, 1836 > I think A- out sorts at the day – at its being the anniversary of our being together – she can hardly perhaps own to herself that she repents but she has a queer temper & perhaps fancies herself under restraint – my maxim is neither to confide in nor consult her – do the best I can & leave the rest to providence. [SH:7/ML/E/18/0174]

On February 10, 1837 Ann Walker gifted Anne Lister a silver pencil for their anniversary [Moving Between Worlds]. All I can make out from her diary is: “Asleep in my easy chair – A- gave (?) me a silver pencil (???)” and no more lol [SH:7/ML/E/20/0021]

February 10, 1838 > Plum pudding today – it struck me it was the tenth – the fourth anniversary of my connection, union (?) with A-. She had remembered to order the pudding yet to me made no allusion to the day. The thing struck me – how odd – said I to myself – it was only as I came in from my walk that I congratulated myself on her being away (???) an incubus taken off me what temper she has – yet the plum pudding softened me. As I came upstairs I told Oddy to met us – have plum pudding tomorrow & A- shall have a bottle of malmsey madeira of which she is very fond. [SH:7/ML/E/21/0040]

February 10, 1839 > Plum pudding (???) in commemoration of the 5th anniversary of my (???) [I guess it’s something like “of my union with A-” or “of my and A-”, something like that SH:7/ML/E/22/0121 anyway, the point is that they had plum pudding to celebrate] 

There are no coded passages for February 10, 1840 (just one at the beginning but it has nothing to do with Ann Walker or their anniversary) and I can’t make out Anne Lister plain hand at all here, these are the pages of the diary: SH:7/ML/E/24/0009 - SH:7/ML/E/24/0010 - SH:7/ML/E/24/0011.

Well, I guess, this is it? So yeah they usually celebrated their anniversary with plum pudding, it seems it was their tradition! :)

[iredreamer]

Hi! Thank you so much for taking the time to answer and give us all your insights on Gentleman Jack. I've read several of your posts and wanted to ask: could you quote some of the times AW really wanted AL to take her drawers off?

hey :) thank you! I’m happy you enjoy reading me :)

About the Ann(e)s… well, I’ve read Anne’s journal from the 4th of January 1834 (when AL and AW see each other for the first time after the 10 months apart) till March 1834, when they finally get married and AL takes her drawers off for the first time with AW.

These are the only two times during that time period that AL writes about AW wanting to have her “near”:

Wednesday 12, February 1834 > “Affectionate to Miss W- and told her I should not be long without seeing her. She desired me not to write anything particular – she meant of affection – which I promised. I certainly feel fond of her now, and if I was once really near her (no drawers on) and she was pretty well satisfied I should be at ease. She has often said she wished to be near myself.” [SH:7/ML/E/16/0168]

First time with “no drawers on” - Thursday 27, February 1834 > “No drawers on last night – first time and first attempt to get really near her – did not succeed very well but she seemed tolerably satisfied.” [SH:7/ML/E/16/0174]

Saturday 1, March 1834 > “Three tolerable times of it last night. She wanted to have me quite near to her, and we shall manage it by and by.” [SH:7/ML/E/16/0175]

AL writes that AW “often said she wished to be near myself” but she doesn’t write about it every time it happens, she doesn’t record every time AW says that to her…so, I guess this is it :) have a nice day and thank you for your ask!

[iredreamer]

Hey ho! Your blog is awesome that really feed our obsessions with GJ, i wanna ask something that really made me wonder. About the Backgammon was Ann do always Thrash Anne like she always do or AL was just pretending to lose in order to please her wife? Thanks!

hey :) thank you so much! I’m happy you enjoy my blog and I’m happy that we’re all obsessed with this show <3 

It seems that Anne Lister was not very good at board games lol, and yes, Ann Walker was very good at backgammon, it was one thing she did better than Anne Lister. Jill Liddington says (in Female Fortune) that Ann Walker seems to have introduced backgammon into Shibden.

Wednesday 10, September 1834 > With my aunt (much better tonight) 25 minutes till 10 10/’’ – before this, after dinner & coffee, had played backgammon with A–, leaving off after several hits, she 1 hit a head. [Female Fortune]

Tuesday 28, February 1837 > Fr[om] 9 to 10 play[e]d backgam[mo]n – A–’s th[ou]ght – [we?] play[e]d 3 hits and she won them all. [SH:7/ML/E/20/0027]

It seems something they usually did in the evenings. I’m sure there are more entries like these :)

[iredreamer]

Hello! You’re so brilliant!! I have a question that’s been bugging me - sorry if it’s already been covered either by your lovely self or someone else previously. Given how chaste AL was about the whole getting naked thing until the commitment was in place from AW (sacrament etc etc), did Sally Wainwright and crew get it wrong when they flashed back to AL all naked and ‘south of the border’ with Maria Barlow..? It just seems oddly out of place having become more familiar with her now?

hey :) From my understanding the whole thing about not wanting to get naked happened only with Ann Walker. The “I don’t want to get naked without a commitment” thing starts after a series of disappointments. At 41 Anne’s not willing to give herself completely to the woman she wants to marry without a serious commitment first. She had been hurt too many times and she also felt like she had been used for sex or money by too many women. It can also be discussed that since Ann Walker really really wanted to be “near” Anne, the whole “I’m not gonna get naked without a commitment first” was, not only Anne’s way of protecting herself from another possible disappointment, but also a way of “convincing” Ann Walker to finally make up her mind about their union.

In that scene with Maria Barlow Anne’s not fully naked, she’s only naked from the waist up, right at the beginning of the flashback you can see she has her drawers on. That’s a very important detail that makes that flashback very accurate; in fact, during that time (1824/25), Anne had a STI and she didn’t want to infect Mrs. Barlow. To have safe sex they always had a “barrier” between them when trying to have a “kiss”:

Tues. 1, March 1825 > “Gave her a glass of brandy & water last night when I came to bed & then grubbled well & had two or three good excitements. Before we got up this morning she turned to me to play a little. In laying just right for a kiss I got quite near her for the first time in my life & remained working there tillI was quite in a perspiration tho I had moved about very little. She said she was not enough excited for me as this was a new thing to us. In fact it was too new to me & I could not feel her so as to have a kiss, tho being a good deal excited, she fancied there was a little linen between us, but there was none to signify.” [SH:7/ML/E/8/0131]

And sometimes Anne kept her drawers on (like we see in the flashback). A note from A Sojourn in Paris by Danielle Orr says: “Part of Anne’s venereal treatment required she rub mercury into her thighs and genital area. When Anne used her mercury prescription, she would wear her drawers when sleeping with Mrs. Barlow. ‘I had my drawers on’, Anne wrote on 4 January, ‘on account of last night’s mercury’”.

Anne also said to Maria Barlow “I dare not put myself near you” (Danielle Orr) meaning “I don’t want to be fully naked with you because I don’t want to infect you”. And Tues. 22, March 1825 > “Grumbled long & had at last the kiss last night just after getting into bed, lay talking this morning, foolish to be really connected now for fear of the possibility of doing her any harm but she thinks when I come again we shall soon get accustomed to each other & do very well, but said she ‘if I do not fit, you will not have’.  ‘Oh’ said I ‘my little one – (as I always call her) – there is no fear of that.’” [SH:7/ML/E/8/0137].

So, the point of all this is that Anne gets “near” Mrs Barlow as much as she can, she doesn’t get fully naked only because she has an STI and not because she was “saving herself for marriage” or whatever. And clearly the fact that she contracted a STI in the first place suggests that she probably did get naked with her lovers.

SW and crew didn’t get it wrong, and Anne totally had oral sex with Maria Barlow, that’s accurate as well ;)