#Bruce does not acknowledge this at all after that interaction and Clark is afraid to ask

[noodles-and-tea]

*its robin btw

[bigskydreaming]

@dargeon-lissa I saw your note on that post, but I’m afraid I don’t have the time or energy to dive down that particular rabbit hole this week, lol. I generally avoid getting into the ‘who stole what from whom’ arguments in the first place, just because I really do love all the Batkids when fandom isn’t getting in the way, and I firmly believe there’s no need to treat characteristics or even plots as though they can only belong to one character. 

So like, I happily butt in when someone says something like “YJ Dick’s hacking is stolen from Tim” because like, its not like its a knock against Tim to point out that “no, Dick’s been portrayed as an expert hacker since before Tim was created, they can both be great hackers, stop being dumb.”

And like I was saying just the other day where I think its stupid and juvenile to emphasize some idea that Dick never reads for pleasure or educates himself for the joy of learning, because some people seem to think that takes something away from Jason, if they’re also writing him with an emphasis on those characteristics.

That sort of thing. 

The rest of the time though, I think it really just comes down to intent, otherwise its just a moot point.

Like, I’m not a fan of Court of Owls fics that center around Tim and basically transplant him with all of Dick’s canon connections to it....but that’s because its like...what’s your point with that fic? If its just because you like the Court of Owls and Talon plotlines but you don’t like Dick, so you’re just cut and pasting one swapped out for the other, then you’ve lost me, not because you’ve ‘stolen’ from Dick, but because you’re not doing anything NEW with the material you’ve applied to a new, different character...while disregarding its source connections. 

*Shrugs* I don’t think that’s about being possessive of Dick’s storylines, its about being like....this is boring. If someone wrote a fic about Tim and the Court of Owls but doesn’t just use him in place of Dick, and still acknowledges their connection to Dick instead of trying to pretend like it or he doesn’t exist...in and of itself, I don’t have a problem with that, it just comes down to whether or not I like what they do with that. Much in the same way that I’d read fic about Dick going up against Ra’s in some specific plot, but if its set after a point in the comics where Tim’s stories started intertwining with Ra’s a lot, I would still want to see that acknowledged. 

Because I do think its disingenuous to pretend that Tim’s stories don’t use Ra’s a lot more regularly than Dick’s canon stories do, even though Dick has prior interactions and stories with Ra’s that go way back before Tim existed. But like....these things don’t need to come into conflict. I can imagine a story that’s Dick vs Ra’s and that doesn’t take away from the respect (or his creepy version of it) that Ra’s has shown Tim as well. He’s allowed to regard more than one of Bruce’s kids as a worthy adversary, and it makes sense that he would. It doesn’t threaten Dick’s central role in a story like that, or his competence, to allow for the fact that Ra’s has a preoccupation with Tim as well, even if that’s not his focus in this particular plot. 

And by the same token, if I were to write a story that springs out of the events of Robin: Year One, for instance, where Dick gets tangled up with Ra’s and Talia and the League because of Vengeance Academy or Boone, something like that.....and I don’t even mention Tim, because its years before Tim would have come into the picture....that’s not me stealing anything from Tim, because those prior connections existed, why shouldn’t anyone make use of them?

Oh fuck it. I clearly went down the rabbit hole anyway. Whatever, more under the cut. Why am I like this.

It goes both ways too. Yeah, sure, I think its dumb when Jason stans act like focusing on Dick’s death takes something away from the typical focus on Jason’s, like he’s less special now or this is Dick ‘stealing Jason’s thing.’ Its comic books. More characters have died and come back then haven’t. Few have their death and return be as central to their character as Jason’s is, like, the Death of Superman is an iconic story but even with that, Clark’s death and resurrection isn’t like....regarded as a fundamental part of his stories....but that doesn’t mean no one’s allowed to write stories that focus on the deaths and returns of other characters, for whatever reason. 

That’s not taking anything away from Jason’s stories, its not copying him, and neither is the way Dick was believed dead for a year like, a rip off of when Steph’s story went the same way prior to that. Characters believed to be dead being revealed as alive is an equally long-running comic book trope. It applies to far more than just the two of them, and no one has proprietary claim over it, its about what you DO with it.

Now, stories that focus on Dick’s death and how he was believed dead and revealed otherwise.....that involve the rest of the Batfamily and make a point not to mention any parallels with Jason or Steph’s stories, act like nothing similar ever happened with them....then I’d be equally wary of that story because I’d be like...why? What’s the point in pretending there are no parallels, acting like Dick is the only one this has ever happened to? He doesn’t need to be, in order for it to have impact, so enough with this Highlander “There can only be one” philosophy.

Like, Dick’s one of the most iconic DC characters and has been around for 80 years. He was going to die and be brought back at some point. Deal with it. It was always inevitable, just like its pretty inevitable that its going to happen to Tim for real at some point too. It just hasn’t yet.

All that said....there have been a number of stories over the years that have posited Dick being killed by the Joker and coming back as Renegade or Red Hood. Similarly, I have no interest in reading those, not because I’m opposed to a Renegade storyline or an exploration of a darker version of Dick, but because they’re usually just a blatant cut and paste job. *Shrugs* I’ve already read that story with Jason and UTRH. I liked that story, with Jason and UTRH. Why do I need to read the same story, just with Dick now instead of Jason? I’d rather read something brand new.

Then we get to ‘stealing characters.’ Like Jason stealing Kory and Roy, and Dick stealing Kon in YJ, etc. I have the same philosophy here as I do about characteristics....its weird and not cool to me to treat characters as having ‘claim’ to any other characters...but that doesn’t mean I always like when this happens either. But its not because they’re taking what belongs to another character, its about why, and what they do with it.

Like, when its a cheap grab of established characters being now associated with a different character to give them a supporting cast with minimal effort, as opposed to building them their own supporting cast with time and care and putting thought into it...THAT’S my problem with that. I don’t typically like Jason being besties with Kory and Roy, either in canon or in fanfics....but that’s not actually because they’re Dick’s friends and can’t be Jason’s too, its because I don’t like the stories that result from that, and I don’t think they make a case or put any effort into convincing me that this needs to be a trio....the way the comics have decades worth of stories establishing a connection between Dick and Roy and Kori and Dick, and with that being why they’re so associated with him. 

I don’t like Jason, Roy and Kory in canon because I just don’t like the New 52 versions of Roy and Kory period, lol. I hate what they’ve done with them, they feel watered down and tweaked in ways that add nothing to their characters, and their association with Jason irritates me not because it exists, but because of how rarely it allows their association with Dick to exist, and acts like mentioning him in their stories threatens the validity of them being with Jason. You wanna write them being Jason’s friends, DO THAT. But put some EFFORT into it. JUSTIFY it. And....don’t erase their connections to Jason’s brother because they’re not allowed to have connections with two brothers at the same time or whatever. Like, even without all their pre-Flashpoint history, New 52 Roy and Kory SHOULD show way more of a connection to Dick than their stories with Jason ever allow for, and that’s the bigger issue to me. Not that Jason ‘stole’ them, but that writers act like he can’t have stories with them without pretending their stories with Dick don’t exist. 

Even in New 52, like, the Rebirth version of Titans was crap, lol, but it still existed, and like....there’s hardly any acknowledgment of Dick and Roy being long time teammates even AFTER the Titans got their memories of each other back in Rebirth. Even if they’re not the best of friends in New 52 the way they were in Flashpoint, they still had way more history in even current canon than Jason’s comicbook writers or fic writers seem willing to allow mentions of. Similarly, we barely know anything about Dick and Kory’s relationship in the New 52....but we do know they HAD one, and fucking amnesia was involved there too, lol, but like. It exists. You want to write her mostly hanging out with Jason now, fine! But like....there’s no reason her past with Dick can’t still exist, and that it would never come up.

Instead, I read way too many fics about Jason, Kory and Roy where the latter two just fucking full on hate Dick, because the writer does. Or just act like he’s a total stranger to them and their loyalty is solidly with Jason and always has been and always will be. And that’s cheap and lazy writing to me, and makes no sense and wouldn’t appeal to me even if it wasn’t Dick that was being bashed and it was a different character in a similar context. 

So its not like they CAN’T be good friends with Jason, because they were such good friends with Dick first. Its just...factor that in, at least, you know? But admittedly, even were writers to do this more, it still wouldn’t be ideal IMO, with these particular characters....because I’m always gonna wonder WHY. Why them? Why these two in particular, when giving Jason more friends? Like, especially if you’re still incorporating large amounts of pre-reboot history into your characters, Jason and his dynamics with Dick and the Batfamily in particular.....its always going to be a little weird to me to have Jason of all people become besties with one of his big brother’s most iconic and longterm friends, and his big brother’s ex-fiancee and mother of his child in other timelines.

Like....its just a matter of....you couldn’t come up with anyone else? That’s why when I headcanon giving Jason more friends and teammates of his own - BECAUSE HE TOTALLY DESERVES THEM AND I WANT HIM TO HAVE THEM, I AGREE, LOL - like, I focus on characters who have no strong connections to Dick or Tim or anyone else in the Batfamily already. And its not because I don’t want to steal what ‘belongs’ to anyone else already, but because....Jason should get to build and have strong connections with characters on his own. I’d rather look through DC’s vast library of characters and find ones that I think FIT him best, have the most potential to play off his character and add to his storylines....then try and take a shortcut by seeing who’s been popular with his big brother but isn’t currently being used in big brother’s storylines, and thus can become besties with Jason without needing to put too much effort into writing that happening.

And that’s why I don’t have a ton of interest in writing Jason with Kory and Roy....because I still prefer their dynamics and history with Dick and don’t really feel they make a ton of sense to go live with his younger brother instead, so I’m happy to just have them friendly with Jason, maybe even the friends of Dick’s he’s closest too and they’ve occasionally teamed up on their own....but for Jason himself, I’d rather build him connections with Tomcat, Damage, Ray, Jade and Obsidian, Anima, maybe the aged up version of Chris Kent....characters he has a blank slate with, no prior strong associations with his older brother that innately make any connection Jason has with them at least somewhat complicated....people I feel he could play off of well and they could add a lot to each others’ characterizations and storylines, and I can easily and without conflict write them being fully in Jason’s corner in ANY kind of disagreement with even Dick or the other Titans....without there always being this weird edge where its like, are Kory and Roy on Jason’s side here just solely for his sake, or is it also because they’re pissed at Dick or the other Titans for their own reasons, or what’s going on here?

Now jump back to where I brought up how YJ Dick has been accused of stealing Kon from Tim. Like, this I think is fully dumb, and again, people can think its because I’m a Dick stan and think he should have everything lol, but its exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Its about what you do with the characters. And its about that none of them belong to any other character in the first place.

Like, can I just say I hate the whole ‘so and so needs their own super, their own speedster, their own archer’ mindset? They’re not collector’s items. They don’t go up in value once you have a complete set. If you’re trying to configure a team and make sure you have certain different archetypes and powersets because of what that allows for narratively? I’m all on board. But once you start going well Kon is Tim’s super and Jon is Damian’s....then I’m like. LOL. No. Kon is Tim’s FRIEND. Jon is Tim’s FRIEND. 

And also because...that’s all Connor actually is, in Young Justice? He’s Dick’s FRIEND. And teammate. He’s not “Dick’s super” because tbh, I don’t see how he’s any more closely associated with Dick in YJ than any of the other original core cast. He’s got the exact same degree of closeness and familiarity with Dick in YJ as he does with say, Artemis. Did Artemis steal Kon too? Or are they just all friends by virtue of the YJ showrunners deciding to make Connor one of their age group, because they wanted their team to have a character with connections to Superman and Lex, not because they wanted Dick to have his own Super.

*Shrugs* And if you don’t like moving Connor to a different age group and generation of heroes in and of itself, that’s a valid complaint! But it doesn’t need to be about Dick stealing something from Tim. I hate that Raven and Beast Boy were aged down in the New 52 and the more recent animated movies and are more in Damian’s age group than Dick’s.....but that’s because I love the classic 80′s Teen Titans lineup and miss Raven and Gar’s dynamics with ALL the older Titans characters. Not because Damian stole them from Dick. I also hate Vic on the Justice League because it was nominally supposed to be to boost his profile but I think its only resulted in a regression in his stories as while a Titan, he had a LOT more narrative focus and a lot more character connections than he’s ever been given since being made an original Leaguer in the New 52′s version of the Justice League. And I don’t hate the JL for stealing Vic from the Titans, I hate the DC editorial staff for making dumb, flimsy creative choices in the name of headlines and hashtags instead of solid character choices and strong narratives.

Like, I went off for a bit there, admittedly, but god. I just hate this whole ‘so and so stole this and that from so and so’ in fandom, because its so pointless, IMO. And people take it so faaaaaar.

LOL, you know how I talk a lot about shipping Dick/Kyle? I’ve had people accuse me of ‘stealing’ Kyle from Jason....because enough people ship Jason/Kyle on the basis of the one comic they were in together and had tension in, that he’s now apparently ‘Jason’s’ and the only reason anyone could possibly have for shipping him with Dick is because Jason’s not allowed to have nice things.

I can’t even express how dumb that sounds to someone who’s been shipping Dick and Kyle ever since there like, two interactions in the Obsidian Age JLA arc that came out years before Jason was even brought back in the comics, let alone starred in a comic with Kyle. Where absolutely, yeah, he had far more interactions with Kyle than Dick and Kyle have ever had! But like, there’s not a fucking quota for non canon ships, lmao. Its not like whoever has the most interactions with someone gets to call dibs. 

There’s a whole laundry list of reasons I ship Dick and Kyle together, based on their core characterizations and their storylines, and various parallels I’ve seen in both over the years. And any story I wrote with the two of them as a couple would absolutely reference Kyle’s previous history with Jason and Donna in Countdown, and have him have his own interactions and dynamics with the two of them, separate and distinct from what he had with Dick. And none of that has anything to do with wanting to ship him with Dick because he’s usually shipped with Jason and I’m jealous and want him with my fave instead, lol. I actually do ship Jason and Kyle as well at times, in other story ideas, and that actually has very little to do with their Countdown interactions as well. If anything, the reason I ship Kyle with both Jason and Dick in different scenarios is because I’ve always seen Dick and Jason as very similar in a lot of regards....and thus they both share a lot of the characterizations and story points that I parallel with Kyle’s, and are what makes me think he’s a viable love interest for either of them.

To wrap this up, I can FEEL the inevitability of someone out there saying “Big talk, but what about you insisting that Jason STOLE Robin from Dick?”

Like, I can just FEEL that on the tip of someone’s tongue, lmao.

And to that I would have to answer....uh....I’ve never ever ever even once said or suggested that Jason stole Robin. I’ve always maintained that the fault there was Bruce and Bruce’s alone, and its Bruce who has something to account for there. From an IN STORY perspective. Because of the CHARACTER reasons for Dick feeling protective and possessive of the mantle, not for any meta reason about it being his and his alone.

Because I do like all of the Robins. I’m glad all of them were Robin. My repeated insistence on stressing the importance of the name for Dick, and hating how little that’s acknowledged...is literally just that. I can like all of the Robins and still think that as the creator of the mantle, and having created it to honor the legacy of his first family, the Flying Graysons, NOT to be an extension of the Batman, I just happen to think that even with all of the Robins sharing in the legacy at this point and adding their own bits to the mantle and what it means and represents, Dick’s motivations for becoming Robin in the first place and the fact that he was not the one given the choice of turning it into a legacy is something that deserves to be upheld as the most important factor in narratives about passing on the mantle and conflict over the mantle.

Not because Dick’s the best Robin or the most important or anything that requires or suggests RANKING the Robins according to some completely arbitrary set of parameters....

but simply because Dick’s creation of the mantle and his reasons for doing it and what it meant to him from the start and to this day....are the most RELEVANT to stories about the passing on of the mantle or conflict about the mantle.

Because simply in terms of causation....without Dick’s motivations...the mantle they all fight over would not even exist. Voila. That makes them innately relevant to any discussion of the mantle in a way that say, Tim’s motivations for becoming Robin aren’t necessarily relevant to a conversation about the mantle between Dick and Jason, or Jason and Damian, or any other variation not involving Tim. Dick’s motivations are the only ones that always bear relevancy in anything pertaining to the Robin mantle, because he’s the singular commonality for it, no matter who holds it and how they got it....because he’s the one who created it.

That’s all. Its got nothing to do with best or favorite, its about....just wanting fandom to stop treating his feelings about Robin as the most irrelevant, when he’s the only single common denominator wherever Robin is concerned....and thus the most relevant.