#HTTYD analysis

[saturnniidae]

Something that kind of frustrates me is how while there's always plenty of conversation about Hiccup's mistreatment by Berk and how things were before and in the beginning of the first movie, people don't seem to understand that obviously while it was partially out of his control due to his weak constitution/physical inability to do certain tasks, Hiccup never really wanted to be like everyone else.

He wanted to be accepted obviously – "I just want to be one of you guys," but we never see him actively wanting to make an effort to change himself to conform to Berk's standards. He wanted to be accepted among his peers as himself, he had his own way of doing things that he refused to change or compromise on, (this is literally shown and stated be a standard behavior; it's why Stoick was so exasperated with him, why their relationship deteriorated as his childhood progressed!!)

It is the very reason everyone hated him so much. When he started doing well in training he was still unhappy because while he was using tricks he learned from interactions with Toothless, he still wasn't doing things the way he wanted, he was finally making Stoick proud but it was only by succeeding in a way expected of a viking of Berk and by working towards a goal he no longer desired to achieve.

He never wanted to be like his peers, to be the ideal viking and perfect son, he just wanted to be himself and be accepted for it.

[arcassiuslux]

Gobber is the perfect madman:

“A downed dragon is a dead dragon.”

—Gobber, httyd 1

We see, in the fight with the Red Death, that the riders use multiple tactics Gobber taught them to fight her.

Like seeing her shot limit:

Or testing her blind spots and disorienting her with noise:

But I think we forget just how important Gobber was when teaching these kids. His lessons killed the Red Death.

And it all comes from that line at the start. The fight with Hiccup & Toothless and the Red Death is great, we all love it, and I’m sure I’m not the first person to say this, but he went for the wings.

Hiccup used Gobber’s lessons not only to test the Red Death, but to finish her off.

Gobber, the madman you are, hats off to you for reaching these dumbass kids.

[violet-moonstone]

I've been looking at a lot of reference pictures to help me while fic writing, and a detail about the Great Hall (In HTTYD 3) I noticed is that the chieftain's chair has two carved birds on the back.

I'm assuming this is a reference to Hugin and Munin, the ravens that rest on Odin's shoulders and provide him with information. I really like this detail because it seems like whoever designed the chair wanted to give the chieftain an air of wisdom -- not only would it make them visually resemble Odin (which makes them look powerful and wise to onlookers) but it also might be a reminder to the chieftain themself that they have the responsibility to make wise decisions for their community.

I might find a way to work this into the fic -- like every time Hiccup sits in the chair, he feels a combined sense of reassurance and weight responsibility because of the legacy associated with those who have sat in the chair or had the title of chieftain.

[tillythemenace]

WHY ASTRID'S CHANGES IN THE LIVE ACTION HURT HICCSTRID

Very long post ahead.

I will be VERY real rn. I am a very hardcore Hiccstrid shipper but I HATE stupid pointless fanservice. And in the LA, there’s so much and at that point in the story is really dumb… It fundamentally changes what made them great in HTTYD1, Especially Astrid.

I talked about it here in my Astrid review, but the way those two scenes in particular misunderstood their core dynamic which SHOULD BE ALLIES FIRST AND THEN ROMANCE.

Their scenes felt just so weird to me. Hiccup is an utter simp and not in the good way… He lets Astrid be even meaner to him. Astrid herself feels so much meaner while getting her OG ending is jarring. She legit threatened him to take his house like hello?! Why would she ever say that? Besides the obviously stupid decision to make her want to be Chief out of nowhere and super OOC, making her hate him for being “privileged” adds such an inconsistent and horrible layer to their “romance”. Cause now Hiccup just takes it… Hiccup may have been weak and meek at first but he was NEVER a pushover. And Astrid having a new "motivation" to hate him is a misunderstanding of her character.

Astrid saying "He's never where he should be"

is very important, cause this shows how Astrid really sees Hiccup at first. Someone that is not VIKING LIKE and is a nuisance. He SHOULD be viking like but he isn't, he's not doing what he's supposed to be and he's not really trying in dragon training at that point. Astrid's disliking of Hiccup stemmed STRICTLY from the fact that Hiccup didn't take his position as Berk's future seriously, she just wanted to protect her village and Hiccup was clearly a liability WITH HIS INVENTIONS that caused more harm than good and THAT'S why he was looked down upon, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS PRIVILEGED. It's SUCH a pointless and dumb change that EVEN IF Astrid came from nothing as she said in LA, it would still make no sense. Now listen, THIS LINE right here could potentially mean that Hiccup being cut some slack could be related to being the chief's son, YES. I'm not saying that Hiccup didn't get special treatment by Stoick cause if it was anyone else? Stoick probably would shipped them off a long time ago. But understanding why Hiccup was there has more to do with the fact that Gobber insisted to Stoick, and the more he got older, the more he needed to protect himself somehow. Putting Hiccup in training is something that would've happened sooner or latter whether he liked it or not. Hiccup's arc was never about "humbling" himself or "recognize his privileges" he was bullied because he was weak and non viking ffs like PLEASE stay focused... Him being the Chief's son was never an actual point of contention for Astrid OR the gang.

Pointing out the real reasons Astrid hated him is very important cause she left him well enough alone for the most part even tho she was mildly annoyed he was a liability to their safety (which is what Astrid cared more about, "Our parent's war") stuff started changing AFTER his success, cause Astrid is prideful yes, she wants to be the best warrior, in her core she's still human and she did get jealous Hiccup of ALL PEOPLE started winning cause of UNUSUAL UNVIKING LIKE methods.

Their added scenes in the Book of Dragons and in the Kill Ring absolutely make my blood boil. Not all new Hiccstrid scenes are good just because they’re Hiccstrid.

In Book of Dragons LA scene, he’s actively insisting on Astrid that dragons may be good when at that point in the story he was NOT SURE HIMSELF YET. In the OG Hiccup was ALWAYS VERY cautious. This added scene is so weird to me because yes, why would Astrid listen to him? AND threaten him?

The fact is that Astrid in HTTYD1 left Hiccup well enough alone because she really didn’t care about him until after he started “cheating” in her eyes. They skipped the forge scene where that point is driven further:

“I normally don’t care what people do but you’re acting weird”

Astrid being sus of Hiccup is important because she NEVER CARED for him at first and THEN she started to notice that he was acting weird. And with GOOD REASON, unlike everyone else, Astrid didn't look for the easy way out, EVER. Astrid was methodical, logical and yes viking-like aggression when fighting but most of all FAIR. She EARNED her place and she wanted Hiccup to do the same. She may have not seen a new way yet, but at that point in the story, the methods Hiccup was using might as well have been cheating.

Cause yeah, “No one just GETS as good as you (Hiccup) do, especially you (Hiccup)” "Are you training with someone?" She could sense that Hiccup was getting better out of NOWHERE and his methods were clearly... dishonest for lack of a better word in her POV. like we KNOW that isn't true in Hiccup and the Audience POV since WE know what's happening, but SHE doesn't. She followed Hiccup around for weeks and he was acting super sus and evading questions, clearly hiding something. That alone made her fume. Like Hiccup being an Astrid simp the whole movie is just so... superficial. At first we KNOW he was shooting his shot but LATER, AFTER TOOTHLESS, he's mostly nervous around her because SHE WAS ABOUT TO FIND OUT HIS SECRET, his priorities change. He's focused on a far more important thing.

HICCSTRID AS ALLIES FIRST

As I talked here, The Cove scene is so much more deep and important to Astrid becoming an ALLY to Hiccup first. She realized that she needs to protect Toothless.

That's why in the Kill Ring LA scene, I got so angry when they BOTH completely forget about HIM and they make it about ASTRID and her reputation and I absolutely HATED their new dialogue. Astrid didn't need to VERBALIZE she was going to support Hiccup. I don't know if they are allergic to subtlety but her saying "I will be with you whatever may come" was already a given in the last scene. SHE was the one that asked Hiccup "What do WE do?"

And something that DID make my blood boil is how Hiccup cared MORE about Astrid's reputation and her relationship with Stoick (something that was not even shown before even in the LA movie) OVER TOOTHLESS SAFETY?! No. Just no. THIS is cheap ass simping fanservice and I hate it. WHY would Hiccup care about Astrid's reputation in THIS VERY MOMENT? When he's about to expose himself to the whole village about dragons? Why did he suddenly forget he's doing this because of TOOTHLESS and his discoveries about dragons and making the world peaceful?? It also doesn't help that we didn't even SEE a scene with Stoick and Astrid together, it was just TOLD to us that suddenly Stoick always wanted a girl? and that he adores Astrid?? like? show not tell... great. And then because we don't even see a single scene with Astrid and Stoick in the LA, when Stoick suddenly gets super mad at Astrid for helping Hiccup, he's like "AND YOU!" pointing at her, like? why you mad bro? why do u feel betrayed? as if you had ANY interactions with her... but I digress...

What actually happened:

THIS right here, has MORE MEANING than Hiccup wanting to "protect her reputation" and not wanting her to get involved in the LA?? like? again, why would he say that here and not the previous Cove scene when she said she was going to support you? Why make this dumb change in the worst time possible?

Skipping these lines to me is criminal to the FOUNDATION that is their relationship. Both Hiccup and Astrid in the first movie are very interesting in the sense that them becoming allies to me is far more important for the plot than them being a couple. The very base of their relationship SHOULD BE protection of their people and dragons and how THAT is the what aligns them both. I don't want to have changes on their characters if it means romance (and this goes for RTTE as well cause I do NOT like a lot of what they did with Hiccstrid there), that's not why I ship them, it's because they work so GOOD as allies FIRST.

Removing this dialogue that is SO POWERFUL undermines so much not only Hiccup's relationship with Toothless but also Astrid's actual ROLE as an ally. Astrid is not a good ally because she's a die hard for Hiccup at that moment, she's a good ally because she's ALSO protecting Toothless AND WILLING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES AS WELL to protect him in case anything goes wrong. And because her being the very FIRST one to changed her mind, her support is super important to Hiccup- THAT'S why he stayed, NOT because he has a crush on Astrid or viceversa.

Hiccup needed an ally FIRST, not a girlfriend. He was completely alone, he was about to leave, and Astrid being the first one, regardless of if he had or not a crush on her, is valuable to him because he not only admired her but he respected her. She was the model viking, and if he can change her, he can try to change everyone else now that he has backup. Sure he liked Astrid but romance is not in his priority list, especially after Toothless, and quite frankly, it wasn't on Astrid's priority list either. What unites them first and foremost is their drive to protect, and once Astrid saw that in Hiccup, she saw a new side of him; not the weak nerd that messed up and didn't seem to care about being a proper viking, but a protector, which is what made her respect him.

Hiccstrid as a ship is very very fun to explore and analyse but when u actually take into account WHY they started that way and why they work... The Live Action not only changes Astrid but in consequence it changes Hiccup and Astrid's relationship and what makes them good, and to me THAT is what suffers the most in their dynamic. All their scenes to me felt so weird and with 0 build up and chemistry. I don't like fanservice if it has to change the characters for them to work... I HATE Hiccstrid fanservice because in the LA it gives them MUCH more focus than Hiccup and Toothless's actual bond, and the Kill Ring scene is the proof. And god how I hated that dialogue... I don't want them to be putting Hiccstrid above what makes HTTYD great and that is HICCUP AND TOOTHLESS'S BOND. PERIOD. (Something rtte and httyd3 also suffer for btw but that discussion is for another day)

Hiccstrid is great yes, not only because of how they started but because of what they became. I truly appreciate their friendship and ally-ship so much. I love a LOT of their romance and I think it's actually really mature, so it pains me to see ppl reduce it to its bare minimum...

[unassumingheroic]

If we’re going to assess the generational background of the gang from HTTYD, think about it…

The Haddocks: Essentially the royalty of Berk, and has a long line of chieftains. Stoick exemplifies what it means to be a Haddock—strong, tough, courageous, and physically imposing. Traditionally, the Haddocks were groomed to embody these qualities and were raised to hate and kill dragons before Hiccup shifted this perspective

The Jorgensons: Known as one of Berk’s most reputable and respected clans, the Jorgensons have a stellar reputation, particularly for excelling in tribal games. Much like the Haddocks, they are recognized for their physical power and strength. Spitelout is the epitome of what it means to be a Jorgenson, setting the standard for the clan’s image.

The Hoffersons: Renowned as skilled strategists, the Hofferson name was once a mark of respect. However, it suffered a blow due to the infamous “Finn Hofferson” incident, which tarnished the family’s legacy.

The Ingermans: It’s revealed that the Ingermans have a darker history tied to dragon hunting, and as far as we know, this practice was still ongoing during the events of the franchise.

The Thorstons: Their lineage suggests they were voyagers and adventurers; probably not much for its heroism. This is supported by the fact that one of their family members is known to have traveled to the Dragons’ Edge long before the events of the series

This was until…

Hiccup and the gang came into picture and practically dismantled this whole belief system and changing it for the better by not following their ancestral patterns

Hiccup, as a Haddock, redefined the course of his lineage by uniting humans and dragons. Despite his smaller, less imposing figure compared to his ancestors, he still led his people toward a more peaceful and prosperous way of life.

Snotlout Jorgenson, raised to believe that strength was solely about domination and conquest, demonstrated that true strength also lies in serving his people and supporting his leaders. He also showed that masculinity isn’t measured by bruteness but by the compassion and loyalty he brings to those around him.

Astrid Hofferson, whose family name was once dragged down and disrespected, is now we can say is the most respected because of the hard work and determination that Astrid has done for her family. (We actually see this redemption story in an actual episode from Defenders of Berk)

Fishlegs Ingerman, once tied to a family legacy of dragon hunting, has completely broken away from that by embracing his love for dragons and redefined his family’s legacy, transforming the Ingermans into a dragon-loving clan.

Ruffnut and Tuffnut Thorstons, while still as adventurous as ever, have proven to their family and the people of Berk that they are skilled dragon riders. Their courage and heroism have probably earned them a reputation, showcasing the strength and bravery that defines their family in a new light.

I love how the franchise didn’t just focus on the change from Hiccup’s perspective but also showed the impact it had on the gang and the family clans as well 🥹

[tenebrius-excellium]

The way I just realized that Astrid was probably mostly pissed off at Hiccup in the first movie not only because he was in the way, but because he made her do his job. Like. She felt she had to step up as the village's top warrior because Hiccup, the supposed Hope and Heir of the Tribe of the Hairy Hooligans, didn't. He was meant to lead. She expected him to lead, as she respected the tribal order and he was, well, the Chief's son. That's why it was always him, not her.

Astrid would have NEVER made Chief, she did step up because she felt there was no one else to do it, but she clearly hated every second of it. In her eyes, that was his job. She's traditional enough that she would have fought teeth and nails for the office if it had been hers by birthright. But it wasn't, and she was loyal as heck to Stoick and never thought about putting her personal ambition over the village's welfare. So she expected this really high standard of the boy who was supposed to be in charge, only challenging his position out of dire necessity, not because of malice. Astrid and Stoick think alike - she was just as disappointed in Hiccup as his father was, and moreover, Astrid thought Hiccup was embarrassing her boss.

Why do I suddenly understand this now. Why has this not occurred to me before

[draconiselegy]

thinking about how the dragons never speak and yet understand everything.

a meditation on silence, language, and loyalty in httyd.

—

what strikes me about How to Train Your Dragon—again and again—is the silence of the dragons.

not muteness, not absence. but willed quiet. a kind of knowing that refuses articulation.

toothless understands loss, grief, joy, betrayal—and he says none of it.

there’s something achingly old about that. like myth. like god before the word.

—

dragons in other media are orators, philosophers, wise with centuries and too many teeth.

in HTTYD, they are animals. but not just animals.

they are sacred, misunderstood, misnamed.

and yet they never need to explain themselves.

they look, they act, they remain.

—

there’s something profoundly Norse about that.

in the Eddas, knowledge is often kept secret. language is precious and dangerous.

Odin gives up an eye for a drink of wisdom,

and the cost of runes is blood.

HTTYD understands that silence can be intimacy.

a dragon doesn’t need to speak to be loyal.

a bond doesn’t need to be explained to be real.

—

sometimes i think about how language failed Berk for generations.

how all the speeches and warnings and war cries kept them from seeing what was right in front of them.

and how only a boy who didn’t speak over everything

could change that.

but this isn’t about him.

(for once.)

[totallynotobsessedwithfandoms]

I’m re-watching HTTYD right now and I am once again floored by the fact that this movie was made fifteen years ago and yet its animation is better than some stuff I’ve seen come out within the last few years?

[woohookangaroo24]

Dart's adopted light fury twins, Raising rambunctious teenagers is hard enough making sure their safe in the hidden world. Sprinkles is the rebel, flirty and troublesome one bothering her brother Feather He is similar like Echo, He is Calm , Goofy , staying out of trouble and Enjoy helping his mom Lotus-(Dart's mate) in the Nursery and Recovery Caves that's where Solstice's daughter Topaz is injury 🤕 and with two babies.

- We will come back to find out where the trio are at right now; I hope Patches find someone. I wonder 🤔!!

[kingofthewilderwest]

Am I the only one who feels like HTTYD isn't as memeable as Shrek or KFP? I know we have "You're as beautiful as the day I lost you." and the famous dancing Toothless, but that one was really from a parody recap. Other than that, I really don't see a lot of memes from it.

I think that means HTTYD is successfully doing its job with the type of narration it intends.

There are comedic lines like "talking fishbone" and "thanks for nothing, you useless reptile" that fandom has parroted since the early days. There's Hiccup encouraging Toothless while the Light Fury looks aghast as a meme template. And fandom can find anything to josh with, be it Hiccup's hot froglegs in HTTYD 2, or Hiccup's love affair with scrap metal from RTTE, or throwing everyone in the dungeon who made a Stoick joke (I am DATING my time in the fandom here, y'all). There will always be moments we play with, as it were.

But HTTYD, while funny, is built on heart. Shrek and KFP have heart, too (especially KFP), but they're built around different vibes (especially Shrek). Shrek was an intentional, abrupt, genuinely shocking aberration from animated fairy tale movies. For people who weren't around when it happened, there's a REASON it was a HUGE, rocking sensation and has become part of permanent culture. Meanwhile, KFP is a comedy action. HTTYD, at its core, is the story of a boy and his dragon, and a boy and his dad. I wouldn't expect fan response or general societal response to respond to these different frameworks the same way.

When audiences think about the impact of HTTYD, they aren't thinking about the pleasurable absurdisms that lead to "You're tearing me APART, Lisa!" or "I don't like sand" (which actually, for the record, I think is an unironically good character scene, sue me).

You ever watch a movie where they try soooo hard to be meme-able? Or they're throwing in jokes at places they shouldn't? I'm not not not saying it happened here, but one of the things I think THW could've improved was by reducing the number of gags it tried to run - while competing for time to emotionally conclude a sweeping trilogy. Sometimes it's not the place for a movie to have the content that'd make it meme-able. HTTYD's always been funny, yeah, and that's part of the franchise's charm. But different types of funny bring different audience results, and you ain't gonna beat Shrek when it comes for appropriate humor vibes for memes.

I could be forgetting a ton in my sleep-deprived state. But I'd agree it's not as meme-able as Shrek, one of the most meme-worthy pieces of media to exist. It means both have their place in the ecosystem of movies, and it makes both of them fantastic for what they are.

[zariahthechocolatecookie]

so I have come to an important revelation about httyd while working on fanfic (again) -

when hiccup is standing on the docks at the end of the first movie, watching all the ships leave, he's obviously devastated. he's lost toothless and stoick, his best friend and father, all in... an hour or two? those are good reasons to be devastated.

but I bet he's also upset because he knows what the red death can do - and he thinks his whole village is going to die fighting it. because ordinary vikings can't stand a chance against something like that. and everyone very nearly did die - if hiccup & the riders hadn't shown up, or had come just a few minutes later, stoick & everyone else would have been dead.

[saturnniidae]

Interesting and, in my opinion, often overlooked thing about Hiccup is how he's like, not really a compassionate person by default. It was learned, not an innate trait like it seemingly was with Valka.

From things said in the first movie, we can presume he's always had a fairly intense interest in dragons, but it was solely with the intention of killing them – and very stubbornly his way at that, considering he hadn't even read the Book of Dragons yet – and it kind of makes sense considering, he's likely desensitized to violence with how often their village was repeatedly burnt to the ground then rebuilt. Like he got excited there was a raid, completely one-track minded on his plans to shoot something down for his own benefit with no regard for the danger everyone (and himself) was in (and yes! This is somewhat selfish, but he was also a child.) Again, a lot of people overlook the fact that while he was insecure about it, alienated by his peers, and looked down upon by adults, Hiccup is still a viking – or at least was raised as one. He still very much held the same, core dragon killing beliefs every one else on Berk did. The only thing that set him apart was his inability to follow directions due to his unwavering obstinacy when it came to doing things his way.

He had every intention of killing Toothless upon finding him, only changing his mind after seeing the dragons fear and realizing they're both trapped by circumstances outside of their control, and even then had no plans of seeing Toothless again after freeing him. He thought he lost his chance at killing a dragon, after uaving the realization he just didn't have the heart to look an animal in the eyes and take its life, he was fully prepared to return to his mundane routine of ignoring what adults want him to do in favor of his own, ironic and futile attempts at making his father proud.

He's never had any kind of 'natrual' connection with dragons, it was something he stubbornly worked towards. Like I said before; he was as set on killing one as any other person on Berk, I just think he had an easier time accepting they were wrong due to spending most of his life as an outcast.

He only went back to find Toothless after his first attempt at dragon training, it was with no intention to get closer, more of an almost childish curiosity, a fascination that grew out of hand, especially after Astrid yelled at him and forced him to confront what he was doing with the question: 'Whose side are you on?"

I know Forbidden Friendship is the moment we all talk about, but I don't think Hiccup and Toothless had any kind of solidified bond until they flew together, and from Toothless' point of view, the realization that Hiccup had now gone beyond just brief fascination and was actually invested enough to help him fly again.

And even then it wasn't until he met that Terror he realized that Toothless wasn't just a one off thing, that most dragons won't attack pointlessly unless pushed to. And even then his relationship with them is still very flawed, and remains that for a long time; I know we're mostly talking about movie Hiccup here, but would the 'do-no-wrong dragon whisperer' that some people act like he is really have trapped that Skrill in a glacier because it was the easy way out? (In his defense he was like sixteen and at least realizes it was pretty fucked up when he was older and did his best to fix things)

It took time for him to get to be the so called 'peace keeper' he is as an adult (though he always seems to prioritize dragons over people, especially Toothless which is a really interesting and fitting flaw but I digress).

tldr; Hiccup was kind of a selfish, maybe even insensitive kid in the beginning, his compassion took time to develop. I feel like people too often forget that, one of his best traits wasn't an innate thing; it was something he worked for.

[arcassiuslux]

Did you know Hiccup saved hundreds of dragons from starvation?

Was just reminded of a topic I would love to touch on in my fic, which I’ve named ‘Let Me Show You (that I’m still here)’, thanks to another poster.

The dragons in httyd1 had to have been incredibly starved, by both Berk and the Red Death. In httyd1, it’s made clear that the Red Death has some form of control over the dragons in her nest, and if they’re away long enough, it goes away.

The dragons, while under her control, likely weren’t able to get food for themselves because she was so insatiable and constantly ordered for more and more food. Many, if not all of them, including Toothless when he belonged to her, were starving (though it is stated that Toothless wasn’t stealing food from Berk, he is still shown to be incredibly hungry when Hiccup discovers him in the cove).

I do not believe Berk would consider feeding the arena dragons enough to fill their bellies either. In the eyes of the Vikings, it would’ve been incredibly foolish and stupid to feed them more than what’s needed to keep them alive. You’re already sending children to train against them, why doom the kids even more by putting them against dragons at their full strength?

My point is, by Hiccup becoming a dragon rider and fixing Toothless’ tail, he didn’t just save a grounded dragon from potential poachers or predators, he saved Toothless from starving to death.

By Hiccup changing Berk and killing the Red Death, he likely saved hundreds more dragons from dying of starvation. He definitely didn’t intend on it, I don’t think anyone would, but it feels like one of those unspoken grand achievements that Hiccup didn’t realize he was holding.

Even funnier when you consider that, at the start, Stoick was yelling about winter coming and their food being an issue and by the time Hiccup wakes up after the Red Death fight, they made huge piles of fish for the dragons to eat as much as they wished.

My favorite little goober is goobering his way deeper into my heart.

[allhailtheauri]

HTTYD : The Hidden World ( oh lawrdy )

I don't hate this movie . I don't like it either ? It's conflicting .

I have , multiple thoughts about what could have been done better but the soundtrack and animation looks absolutely stunning just as the previous movies have been . The interactions between the LF and Toothless are sweet , I just wish they had more screen time to develop as a pair .

But here are my main issues ! And this is open for discussion so feel free to comment cause I love talking about this franchise :D

Grimmel as a villain

Based on a comment I made in the previous post how Hiccup is the reunion of dragons and humans , HTTYD 1 was Hiccup facing dragons and HTTYD 2 was Hiccup facing a human warlord .

I think they tried to make Grimmel a villain that was a combination of "humans and dragons" , he was meant to show the worst of people and the worst of dragons . This especially when he's considered worse than Drago and the deathgrippers are worse than Drago's bewilderbeast cause they are not a "protector species" .

I didn't really like the message that the deathgrippers were simply more bad evil for eating other dragons and being functioning members of a food chain . It's the same vein of "Sharks are evil and dolphins are good" . The dragons are animals , and animals are not inherently good or bad , they simply survive . Same way the Deathsong isn't bad just for eating other dragons , but it was an antagonist cause it was hunting the main cast .

We HAVE seen worse . We've seen Viggo , we've seen how he uses dragons for his agenda ( both bad and then good later on in the series ) We've also seen that while the series criticises the hunters' actions , they do not blame the dragons for being used by the hunters and do not write the dragons are evil . Hiccup's crashout over Viggo was astronomical and the dread for viewers seeing Viggo always one step ahead was much better established than Grimmel's .

The main issue is that Grimmel as a villain fell flat compared to what we've seen before and just how badly Hiccup was affected by his previous enemies . Because Grimmel's story was limited by the duration of the movie , we didn't get enough time to simply marinate in dread at his actions or his genius .

Grimmel as Hiccup's parallel / bad ending

I also think Grimmel was meant to be "who Hiccup would be if he did choose to kill Toothless" but I felt that Drago actually paralleled Hiccup better .

Where Hiccup sought peace , Drago created violence . Hiccup lost a leg to fighting a dragon and seeing the worst of the dragons ( what Berk faces parallels Drago's backstory of villages being burned to the ground and families dying . )

"To see my village burnt , my family taken" ( the irony being that Hiccup knows exactly how that feels too cause this happened endlessly to Berk before the Red Death was killed )

The reason they turned out difference was Hiccup let his curiosity overtake his fear of death at the fire of a dragon , while Drago allowed his anger and hate for dragons to drive him to amass control over them .

There's more stuff I wanna yap about but atp I might as well make HTTYD my thesis so , here this for now :D

[local-dragon-haunt]

What are your thoughts on Night Lights becoming a species of their own and sort of...replacing Night Furies and Light Furies entirely?

Honestly my biggest gripe is HTTYD3's portrayal of Grimmel as having "wiped out all Night Furies". I feel it would have been sufficient to have had him kill at least one to establish him as the "Anti-Hiccup" but leave the continued survival of other Night Furies ambiguous. Because if all the black genes came from Toothless alone? That is one inbred population.

Honestly I don't think my answer is going to be some big thought-provoking statement. I generally like the nightlight designs from THW. I've read a bunch of posts about people complaining that genetics doesn't work that way but at the end of the day, it's a fictional species from a fictional world who's target demographic is 6-13 year olds.

Now what I CAN generally speak on (gesturing awkwardly to my bachelors degree in Animation) is that the canonical Night Light designs make the most sense story-telling wise. We get exactly one scene with them in THW. The best way to convey that these are Toothless and Light Fury's children in the three minutes of screentime they have (since they cannot speak) is to have them mirror Toothless' traits —that being his black scales.

And unfortunately...it was also the most efficient way to convey it in TNR. Don't get me wrong. It's very poorly executed. And the implications of inbreeding are there for anyone with a hint of media literacy, but again. TNR has a target demographic of 6-13 year olds.

I do agree that Grimmel's whole "ive killed all the night furies" schpiel isn't believable at all, though. How to Train Your Dragon as a franchise did not drop enough foreshadowing, worldbuilding, or backstory for us, the audience, to believe that. Grimmel's role as an antagonist does not give us any confidence that he's telling Hiccup, and us, by proxy, the truth. In fact, I've always found that line of his to be a bit??? Ironic? To me, it's always had a tone of overconfidence that implies Grimmel isn't as successful as he thinks he is. Kind of like Lord Shen from Kung Fu Panda II.

And that's ALSO why don't think we have enough evidence to say that the Night Lights "replaced" the Night/Light Fury species (though you'll have to take what I say with a grain of salt because I haven't watched all of TNR). I think it's much more likely that the show had a small scope and an overarching idea to focus on Hiccup and Toothless' descendants. There could very well be more Night/Light furies out there, but they aren't important to the story that HTTYD or TNR wanted to tell.

[tenebrius-excellium]

Thinking about how Hiccup had zero problems with killing the Red Death in the first movie. Reminds me of how surprised I was that every movie and show afterwards chose to characterize him as this sort of 'naive pacifist' guy. Hiccup was NEVER that. At least first movie Hiccup wasn't, so I keep being surprised they went there.

Viggo said at the end of Rtte that Hiccup taught him to respect dragons as equals, I believe? But that means that there are hateful dragons. Revengeful dragons. Harmful dragons. Asshole dragons. Which means that not every dragon should live, if they are that kind of smart and capable of attacking humans again and again.

If they have a personality, they can be like orcas, who sink ships for fun. They can have destructive feuds with each other. They can be like cats knocking glasses off of counters and like roosters having it in for someone in particular. If dragons are equal to humans, then they cannot be trained to do humans' bidding because they are above that. They can only be genuinely befriended. A dragon will choose to lower its innate dragon-ness - the wild and dangerous ability to roast you with a single breath - and act docile for you if it likes you. Sort of like a crow? But a dragon is not a pet, at least that's not how I understood the Httyd dragons. Which means, that if it comes down to it - Hiccup versing a dragon that is standing between him and the humans he loves - a dragon who won't be talked down, who won't be persuaded to be peaceful, a dragon who greedily insists on its power in a situation that endangers Hiccup's loved ones - I think Hiccup totally would still choose to kill that dragon. Somehow, this confrontation was avoided throughout all the rest of Httyd.

Thinking about this specifically in the context of wasps being on my mind. This summer, I decided that I'm not going to be afraid of wasps anymore. And so when watching them as they steal my breakfast from me, I find that they, too, just want to eat because they just discovered a delicious feast. They don't want to sting me, they are only interested in having a bite of my delicious marmalade as well. Now, when trying to handle them, wasps are going to be wasps. So I've simply got to finish my breakfast as long as there is only 1 wasp buddy around. As soon as buddy goes flying off to tell his friends about the party he found, I leave and take my stuff with me. That is how I avoid getting myriades of wasps all over my food. That is how I avoid getting stung out of irritation. That is how no wasps get killed.

By respecting the nature of who wasps are. By assuming that wasps are going to be wasps. Now, I can still say that I shared my breakfast with an animal. Cycle of life. Isn't that wonderful.

But if a wasp starts invading my space too much, selfishly annoying me again and again despite getting its share of the cake, that wasp is going to get GONE. And I believe that dragons of intelligence should be treated with the same courtesy. Og Hiccup did that.

Og Hiccup is just the best. He's very perfect.