#Hero Organization however doesn't have the same effect...for some reason

[nightfal1n]

If Hero Organization gets axed I'll wholeheartedly blame the title first because it's so hard to find ppl who talk abt it (while also filtering out unproductive comparison with kn8...c'mon we need more adult protag who isn't overaccomplished because that covers a lot! Not every adult are awesome side character or 100% incompetent jerk there're many guy in 30s who fell inbetween and in need of being noticed /okay this gonna get long so let ends it here)

[vaalthus]

Convergence Part 1 (spoilers)

*Deep inhale*

*Long exhale*

THE TIME IS NIGH!!!

So to start,

I have to say I was utterly shocked that Jaania chose not sacrifice any more of her forces to buy her more time weave her spell but after giving it some thought it's an action that makes sense for her. As I mentioned in commenting on the Final Steps release, Jaania is finally able to see that our motivations we're always intended to strive for everyone's sake in the best of ways we knew how. As a result, she's hoping we can see and have faith in the good she's trying to bring about through her ascension.

As such, it makes no sense in her eyes to waste the lives of those who have been so loyal to her in helping her reach this moment when there's a chance their lives can be spared by us and they in turn be able to experience the world she seeks to achieve. Though those same troops would have been more than happy to lay down their lives for her so that world is brought to fruition. It's just a pity Jaania didn't give the order to retreat sooner otherwise the last of the Pelekoans might have survived.

What troubles me is the comments like these:

It's no secret to anyone that the last of Jaania's forces were those who were most loyal to her and her vision but what I find troubling here is the inevitable aftermath of these people once this conflict reaches its conclusion. As Hansa, pointed out to us in the Awakened Depths, Jaania became a beacon for those who had a simple wish to be achieved: to be free of any and all magical threats that Lore offers. However, it's not just these soldiers that want that, it's the nobles, the farmers, the little guys that have been supporting the Rose all these years across Greenguard and likely still do, sure that number has definitely taken a dive since the start of Book 3 but I doubt it's still insignificant. All of those people will soon find their dreams and the person who was meant to bring back a sense of uninterrupted peace in their lives is about to be dashed. We can only hope their response to this reality is constructive as opposed to the opposite.

What I've been saying all along folks :3

Miss me with that "we're not so different you and I" speech.

I like to think this is the Hero taking all they've learned about the ability to make choices in the Maleurous saga and is just throwing that much needed wisdom back at Jaania who feels the need to instill order in the world.

This comment is interesting to me because we have seen the Hero effectively try and be everywhere all at once for eveyone's sake, quite almost obsessively I might add, and I feel if Jaania hadn't recently just had a change of heart on her perspective on them, and taken the time to analyze the Hero's deal, she might have been able to more strongly appeal to their need, their desperation, in protecting everyone they can. Not that it would work either way, the Hero's distrust and deep-rooted fear of her, as seen in Fear, showed that getting us on her side was simply not possible.

If she was more predatory, of course, she would have used that aspect against us as every other villain that attacks our psyche has done before. A neat contrast here is what I'm pointing out.

*sigh* Every single new questionable scene with this woman continues to force me to find comfort in the fact that her and the other Magesters too dependent on the Mana Core Fragment will be dead eventually thanks to Roirr's actions. I truly want to believe there's a positive future for the Shapeless Empire that doesn't involve exploiting its citizens through this agreed upon cycle without violence but the rotting hands of the past never want to let go of control easily.

YOU GAVE THEM TRAUMA AND WEREN'T EVEN SORRY!!!

Okay technically this right here is the more sensible reasoning, but I stand by what I said! What I like most in this scene is that we simply reaffirm what we've been trying to tell her since this whole mess started with her organization. Everything we bring up about the harm the Rose has done thus far has been consistent and aren't negated by the fact that Jaania, at heart, wants to do what she believes is best for everyone's sake.

What I love even more however is how she averts her eyes the moment we bring up Akanthus because she knows she can't even reasonably, or delusionally for that matter, deny she has made a grave error in judgement in allowing Akanthus' abuses on, well, basically everyone, and soon everything, in his wake. It's that "Yeah, ya got me there look" that just sends warm feelings down my spine.

Now if you told me at the start of this saga Jaania was going to offer us a bargain to effectively play as the puppeteer god of fate alongside her, I definitely would have called you insane. It's moment I'm sure comes as a complete shock to everyone, it certainly did to me anyway. And honestly why wouldn't it? It's one thing to ask us to stand down and simply allow her to achieve apotheosis but it's a completely different matter to propose to come and play god. But it's one that sadly makes all too much sense.

Jaania has admitted that she has made terrible mistakes and has been too much of an imperfect being in her quest to achieve peace and prosperity for Lore. So better way to accommodate for her ham-fisted actions and judgement so far then to have someone like the Hero to hopefully keep her worse tendencies in check. As opposed to someone like Akanthus or Zadd who would, in all likelihood, make things worse had they been afforded the opportunity. There's another reason I believe she makes this offer but I'll get to that later.

Nothing else to say here beyond epic callback!

Out of all the Hero's moments in this quest, I believe this is where their experiences throughout the Maleurous saga shines through the brightest.

In a way, you could argue that, in spite of the obvious chaos that will come with it, Jaania's plan is to instill an eternal order, a Destiny, upon Lore itself, one in which she will insists never ends as she dictates. Yet the Hero knows the importance of others being able to decide the paths they choose to walk, I'd argue they've known that since Calamity, without some transcendental hand to yank them in another direction against their own will. So they certainly would not agree to be the one to dictate the fate of all those that live on Lore let alone allow someone as misguided as Jaania to do it.

Okay, I think we all knew that the void pearl was too easy a solution to deal with Akanthus and was likely not going to work but there's something absolutely amusing about Hesperrhodos being used a shield to be sent to the Void and then teleport immediately back to Lore without issue since, ya know, Elemental Spirits can just do that at any time. Hell I at least would have thought that thing would have let a monster through or something. The downside to seeing Zvezdana looking completely slack-jawed after these events unfolded is the fact that we still don't have a damned plan to take Akanthus out of commission...so yeah.

I have to say I love this final appeal Jaania gives to the trio of combatants because it shows a few things. First, that she still fails to understand that her organization was really only giving the illusion of peace to all those the dwelt within range of the Rose's reach and even then only really through the lens of normal humans. Second, it displays that she never truly had a proper grasp on the relationship she fostered with those she worked alongside. Lastly, she places too much hope that wanting the same things is not the same as agreeing ideologically how get those things.

Which inevitably leads to one option: Violence

I have waited 12. long. years. for this very moment. 12 years spent waiting since we broke free from that ice cap. 8 years I waited since from the first time we saw her again in Timelines. 7 years since the original Gala and our spat. 4 years since dealing with the second rift and I had a deeper appreciation for her mental state which motivates her.

And now I am finally here to fight Jaania one on one. So, you best believe I fought alone to prove which of us was could beat the other!

The following boss fight that ensues is perhaps one of the best thematic story fights in the entire game at this point, as it should be for the antagonist that is the face for this entire saga. I'm quite pleased that devs designed her to be difficult, hell I'm even glad that couldn't easily soul gambit my way out of this one.

In terms of mechanics, it's everything you could expect, Jaania does everything she can to debuff us and each time she fails and has her health cut down in bulk she commands even more strength to take us down, even attempting to go for the old freeze'em solid trick and when that doesn't draw any purchase thanks to Aegis she relies on her new found soul weaving arts to dispatch us. All the while we deal with the tragic music in the background tugging at the heart strings for a conflict that should have been avoided.

How far we've come since the Doom Amulet was our first real challenge in-game for year, eh?

And can I say how amusing it is that Jaania trapping us in ice is something that could only work once? Aegis apparently always had the means of unfreezing, he simply couldn't due to Draco keeping everyone away from where we were placed. So, with him already being close by to protect our soul from going poof, there's no way he's going to let us get trapped again. Even more amusing is to think about how Jaania is basically using the old ice soul weaver meta to take us on.

But after all of that we prove in the end, with or without aid, to be stronger than Jaania, at least in this exact moment.

It's a pity though that the moment does not last as expected Jaania will not let it end without fighting at her full potential.

This right here is the reason I believe Jaania made her initial proposal to us and why I bring up the Maleurous saga. For me at least, it's easy to see the similarities between Jaania and Notha. Both are exceptionally powerful accomplished mages that desperately sought out to change a world that gave them deep rooted traumas that they wished to change that world so that the suffering they experienced could not continue. However, where Notha wanted to bring about chaos to change the order of the world; Jaania is hellbent on imposing order on the chaos the world of Lore and its magic offers its inhabitants. Furthermore, I suspect, unlike Notha, that Jaania cannot bring herself to reconcile with the trauma magic has placed on her life and the people she cared about. Most defining of all though, which will likely be her downfall, is her need to be in control of everything so that she or anyone else might never hurt again.

Antagonists like Jaania are always left in a hard spot. They seek to rid the world of suffering and conflict forever and while that is a noble desire they fail to realize how unfortunately intrinsic those things are to existence. Thusly they bang their heads on a wall until they're bloodied and broken only for that dream they longed for to dissipate before their very eyes.

And so, her last option is to go full synchronization. I can't guess what happens next here with Jaania. Judging by the increased streaks of white in her hair, her soul is continuing to unravel though I think she's in no worse of a state than Tomix was when he was at the end. I was originally going to say synchronizing with a corrupt spirit created through forbidden magic would spell instant catastrophe for Jaania but then I remembered Aspar was created through the same means, although he was just a fragment, so she might pull off the effect with little issue.

I suppose we must simply wait and see what becomes of our troublesome Arch Magus and where the winds will turn for her ambitions.

And of course, there's still this asshole and the doom device.

[actually-factually-anonymous]

I don't know about the new MK1 storyline, but in regards to Miraculous powers being used for Fatalities...

Well, there's the obvious basic strength feats allowing any hero theoretically tear apart their opponent like a Piñata. There's also basic creativity, like Chat Noir could just grab someone, use his baton to rise 100 metres in the sky and drop the other person.

But in regards to specific powers being used for lethality:

Lucky Charm can be literally anything including (but not limited to) a machine gun, to a spotted anvil falling from the sky. You could make some downright loony-tunes esque fatalities if you wanted, and keep the guns for a "Shadybug" skin.

Cataclysm... well, there's not really much else you can do with it. Just have Chat smack the opponent around and have the disintegration be slow and agonizing if you want. (Maybe have it quick for ordinary Chat but drawn out for Claw Noir).

Subjugation/Action... well, once the opponent is Paralyzed you can do anything with them. For Chloe I'd have her throw them into a body of water to drown, if it was Vesperia: she and Pegasus seem to be used together quite often so maybe have her Sting, then let her opponent get sucked into a portal into space or something.

Voyage: You can literally just have Max send them anywhere lethal. Dropping them into the Sun would fit any opponent besides a Kryptonian.

Shellter: Well, there's no reason given that it can't be used to 'protect' spaces smaller than a person. Maybe have a protective shell form around the opponent's torso and have the energy shell separate their head and limbs off as it comes into being.

Mirage: Well, you could just have them distracted so the hero can land a killing blow, have them step off a cliff. But if you want to go full horror, you could have the opponent subject to some kind of mindbreaking nightmare of an illusion and have them off themselves.

(Just taking a moment to pause and say: going through these possibilities makes you appreciate how dangerous these magical Jewellery attached to cute superpowered bobbleheads are.)

Clout: Point-banc to the face and the enemy turns into the iconic ludicrous gibs. Easy.

Multitude: A hundred little Multi-mice reach up and beat the life out of the opponent like a colony of ants attacking at once. Alternatively: go full Thanus and have one Multi-mouse jump into the opponents mouse and have them cancel the power, causing them to reform at full size within said opponent and bursting them like a ripe grape.

Resistance: Not much to do here, maybe just have the bearer gore the opponent before crushing them underfoot like an enraged bull?

Perfection: Blown away into the sky to fall to their deaths, detonated via lightning-bolt or air-fried to perfection. Take your pick.

Burrow: Easy enough, kick them through a portal or two into a dangerous time period and have them killed there. Pretty sure something like it's already done in MK anyway.

Uproar: Perhaps the power can effect bodily functions to disorientate the opponent and just have the monkey's staff extend to the moon with the enemy trapped upon it- thus making a nice Dragonball reference.

Second Chance: Have the power used to instantly dodge any attack by the enemy and continuously get closer until the bearer can just beat the opponent into paste with the harp. I imagine with each turn-back the enemy grow more and more confused as to how every attack is being dodged until the lethal blow hits.

Fetch: Presumably this power doesn't need to take all of an object that it fetches. Have the bearer touch the enemy then dance back and 'Fetch' one of their vital organs like a spine to their hand. Probably a head with a spine but nothing else.

Genesis: More or less the same as the Lucky Charm. You literally make any conventional weapon or object have it used lethally. For pizazz however; maybe pull a Gabe and make a meteor and have it crash to earth on the opponent.

Sublimation: Literally too many possibility to count. But the most 'theatrical' move I can think of would be for the bearer to assume the powers of their opponent then beat them with a variation of their own iconic fatality.

Gift: Trap the opponent in a fantasy, which changes into a nightmare as their throat suddenly slits open, and other wounds appear. Then switch back to the real word where the bearer is dealing those wounds to the opponents helpless body.

Amokization: Presumably this power would equal the bearer summoning one of Mayura/Shadowmoth/Argos' established monsters and using their power to destroy the enemy.

Akumatisation: This one wouldn't be so much a fatality as the bearer presumably beating the enemy into submission and then using the Butterfly to force the weakened foe into becoming their Akumatised servant. Otherwise, just have Gabe/Lila pull out a sword from the cane or use whatever other weapon they have to good effect while the enemy is distracted by trying to fight off the Akuma.

Bonus!:

The Wish: Bug Noire presumably just uses The Wish to eliminate the Opponent. Or maybe have Gabe use The Wish to achieve his perfect world and use the opponent's life and loved ones as his price.

...

Well. That's half an hour of my life spent turning seemingly benign superpowers from a children's show into snuff proposals. I hope it was worth it.

With the new MK1 storyline out I have to wonder if the Miraculous can be used to commit Fatalities? Not that the Miracuclass would be prone to murder ofc but in a very ooc scenario. Like other than Chat Blanc point blank disintegrating.

What MK1 storyline? What does that mean?

[ariapmdeol]

a few more refs for the Dream SMP Parahumans AU! + updated connections chart! This au is written by both myself and @gavinom !!

Masterpost here, bonus info + rambling under the cut!

5UP - Stranger 4

he's a rogue! does information/breaking and entering/spying/assassination for hire! in his civilian identity, he works with wilbur at a bookstore

his power is that when in direct skin contact with plants, he becomes unnoticeable/undetectable

he has a crush on Fundy's villain identity! Fundy, however, has a crush on 5up's civilian identity which creates... shenanigans

here's a lot of flirting involved

yes this is a Miraculous-ladybug style love square

he's the first one to figure out tommy and tubbo's identities! They come in to the store all the time in civilian identities, so when he saw them running around trying to be heroes, he decided to keep an eye on them and help them out! They don't know that he's HIM, though, they just think he's a cape who wanted to help them out!

CLAY WASTAKEN | DREAM - Master 6, Striker 2

THE MASTERMIND. THE PUPPETEER. Dream has two identities! His Villain identity is Dream, Villain Leader of the Dream Team and ruler of the city! His civilian identity is Clay Wastaken, Cauldron employee and scientist

His power is a possession power! He can possess any object he has physical contact and Possess it! This transfers his consciousness completely into the puppet, leaving his body fast asleep. Possessed objects are enhanced by virtue of integrating his consciousness with it, which adds a bit more.... uncanny valley type enhancements. It's not a LOT but it's there

His civilian identity is what he uses to interact with Cauldron, who run experiments on how to gain powers and how to create them! He knew phil in this identity as coworkers, and had kept an eye on techno as well! Ranboo, however, was the result of the project he oversaw personally

as a result, he's looking for Ranboo, Phil, and techno! Technoblade, as a limitless tinker thanks to chat, is a GAME CHANGER. this man is OVERPOWERED so of course he wants to get him back under Cauldron/his control! He takes wilbur as an underling for this reason too - more access to information about philza

Schlatt is working for him as a spy! Schlatt's working for the Protectorate (hero organization) and Dream at the same time, and is acting as dream's (reluctant) man on the inside. in exchange, he asked for Dream to look out for Tubbo and ensure that he doesn't get hurt or involved in any of this. little does Schlatt know,,, his nephew has become a vigilante.

so dream is keeping an eye out for Tubbo, and quickly figures out that he's triggered and is trying to become a hero. this easy favor? has become a lot more complicated

he orders his puppets from sam, a rogue Tinker! (rogue meaning neither hero nor villain)

DreamXD seems to take a very similar form... i wonder how they're connected?

JACK MANIFOLD AND NIKI NIHACHU | NEMISIS - Breaker-Changer 5 + Brute 3 + Striker 3 And Blaster 6

ROCKETDUO ARE BEST FRIENDS

they triggered together!

Jack Manifold is a PHOENIX, BASICALLY

his power manifested as he was literally dying in a VERY VERY public place! Bursting into flames and coming back to life is a very noticeable power

as a result, he doesn't really have a difference between his civilian and hero identities? Hes just Jack Manifold, hero and also college student

He's actually STUPIDLY popular

the Protectorate loves him bc he makes heroes more relatable

in detail, his power is as follows: he can't die! He still feels pain and stuff, but if he gets too close to death he bursts into flames and comes back to life fully healed, but with some... changes the more times he dies, the more visible those changes become this is things like his eye color changing, and it almost looks like he has magma or lava glowing under his skin he can also create fire! It must be generated from his skin.

Niki's power is also flame based! Her flames have different effects based on how she feels towards the target. If she cares about them, the flames heal them! If she doesn't like them, it burns them

Niki is on a villain team with Wilbur and Fundy as Nemesis

both of them know that the other is on the opposite side, but promised not to fight each other or use inside info against each other

so theyll just wave to each other from across the battlefield and it's very entertaining

Niki and ranboo are siblings! She's looking for him

She actually joined wilbur and fundy in working for dream because it means more resources to look for him

she doesn't know about cauldron or that ranboo's been experimented on

dream also doesn't know that they're both looking for the same person

and tubbo and tommy ALSO dont know that this black and white horned guy they found is connected to all of this

shenanigans ensue

[lokiondisneyplus]

No character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe has the staying power of Loki. Portrayed with just the right amount of smarm and charm by Tom Hiddleston, the impish trickster with the ability to shapeshift and cast illusions is a favorite among fans despite the fact he's betrayed friends and family multiple times since debuting opposite Chris Hemsworth in 2011's "Thor." The most predictable thing about him might be his unpredictability. And yet no one thought the character would return to the MCU after being killed by the all-mighty Thanos (Josh Brolin) in the opening scene of 2018's "Avengers: Infinity War." However, we're now on the cusp of the character leading his very own show.

Debuting Wednesday, June 9 on Disney+, the six-episode "Loki" follows a past version of the character, though it's not a prequel. This Loki is the man who successfully stole the Tesseract, aka the Space Stone, when the Avengers traveled to the past in 2019's "Avengers: Endgame." His actions that day ultimately created a branched reality — the very thing the Ancient One (Tilda Swinton) warned the Avengers about when they attempted to gather the stones in the past. So when the show picks up, Loki will find himself being forced to work with the Time Variance Authority, an organization dedicated to protecting the proper flow of time, to help restore the main timeline he broke when he fled with the Tesseract in 2012.

It remains to be seen whether or not the series is one of the shows Marvel's Kevin Feige said was developed with additional seasons in mind. But with this particular setup — and assuming the show operates independently of the main overarching narrative of the MCU — this is the type of series that could easily run for multiple seasons should the people involved desire it. And given his comments over the years, Hiddleston definitely seems game to portray Loki until he's too old to do so.

But what is it about the character, a Frost Giant who was adopted by Odin (Anthony Hopkins) as a baby and raised as an Asgardian, that has allowed him to persevere – especially when Natasha Romanoff (Scarlett Johansson), Tony Stark (Robert Downey Jr) and even Steve Rogers (Chris Evans) have not? What gives Loki, a character who has been both villain and antihero, such longevity in the MCU? Is it Hiddleston himself? Is he nurturing goodwill with his enchanting performance? Is it the character's unpredictability keeping things fresh? Or is it the potential of a flawed man still searching for an identity and purpose?

Over the last decade, Hiddleston — whose name was once bandied about as a possible James Bond candidate after a stellar turn in "The Night Manager" — has won favor with Marvel and its fans thanks to his continued dedication to the role of Loki and his support of the extended universe. Some actors have been happy to say goodbye after fulfilling their contracts, but you'd be hard-pressed to find an actor who loves his job with Marvel more than Hiddleston. (Never forget the time he dressed up in character and took over Hall H at San Diego Comic-Con in 2013.) But in addition to his acting chops and commitment to the role of Loki, Hiddleston is also just an effortlessly charming individual, and some of that natural charisma bleeds into his performance, making the character a richer and more complex character as a result. And it's a good thing too because a character like Loki — someone ruled by his emotions, whose only allegiance is to himself, and who wouldn't think twice before double-crossing his own brother — runs the risk of becoming either very annoying or quite tired rather quickly. Luckily, Loki is neither.

After learning the truth of his origins in the first Thor film, Loki's anger toward his family and the betrayal he felt put him on a path to finding his purpose, which resulted in him becoming the mouthy and manipulative, power-hungry antagonist of the first Avengers movie. At the time, no one outside of Feige and other decision-making executives likely knew what was in store for the future of the MCU.

But now we can look back and see Hiddleston's captivating turn in "The Avengers," in which he attempts to take control of Earth using an army of Chitauri forces, was more than just the catalyst for the various heroes recruited by Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) to finally team up. It was also the beginning of what might be the best character arc in the entire MCU. No one save perhaps Sebastian Stan's Bucky Barnes, aka the Winter Soldier, has had a more complicated or effective emotional personal journey throughout the entirety of the Infinity Saga (and beyond). Perhaps that is why when Loki was eventually killed several films later in the middle of his redemption arc during the opening scene of "Infinity War," the heartbreak seemed to extend beyond the edges of the frame and into the real world.

The exceptionally fun 2017 film "Thor: Ragnarok," which immediately preceded "Infinity War," saw Loki forced to confront his past and make a decision regarding his future. The death of his father and the return of Hela (Cate Blanchett), the Goddess of Death and the sister neither Loki nor Thor knew existed, ultimately meant the end of life as he knew it. But rather than fleeing at the first chance like everyone assumed he would, Loki accepted his place in his family and returned to his brother's side after the destruction of Asgard. Of course, he also pocketed the Tesseract before the planet was destroyed, a seemingly innocuous decision that would unfortunately lead Thanos right to him. But learning to care about something more than his own immediate wants was a redeeming moment for Loki, as was his attempt to save Thor from Thanos, so his death was both an effectively heartbreaking moment that resonated with fans while serving as a harbinger of what was to come.

It also felt like closure, so when a past version of Loki popped up in "Avengers: Endgame" when Tony, Cap, and Scott Lang (Paul Rudd) traveled to 2012, it was a pleasant surprise. That the new series "Loki" follows this branched-reality version of the character and won't erase the character's original narrative arc is what makes the show such an intriguing new chapter. When the show premieres, Loki hasn't gone through any sort of character evolution. He is still the angry man who tried to force all of humanity to kneel before him in a desperate attempt to find his place in the world. He has yet to go through the events of his mother's death or the destruction of Asgard. He's a man out of time, a man without a home. And it's the chaotic, still-in-progress nature of Loki and the inability to guess what he might do when an organization like the Time Variance Authority, which is dedicated to order, tries to force him to do what they say that makes this new chapter so exciting.

Each episode of the show, which also stars Owen Wilson as Mobius M. Mobius and Gugu Mbatha-Raw as Judge Ravonna Lexus Renslayer, will see the character travel through time and space on a mission to restore order to the timeline. But will this Loki follow the same path as the man we know and love? Or will this version make different choices without Thor by his side? More importantly, will he find what he's looking for?

Loki is a man driven by insecurity and an ongoing struggle with his identity, though he deftly covers up his deficiencies with a devious wit and charm. The constantly shifting logo in the show's trailer represents both the character's shapeshifting ability as much as the idea that he doesn't know where he belongs or who he is yet. And although the beats of such a character arc are hardly new territory for Hollywood — you could argue they've even been done to death at this point — the potential for greatness still exists as Loki remains pleasantly unpredictable. It means anything can happen, and with Hiddleston promising a show that is unlike anything Marvel has ever done, there's no reason to believe Loki the man and "Loki" the show won't continue to endure and evolve even beyond this first season. After all, he certainly has the staying power.

"Loki" premieres Wednesday, June 9 on Disney+.

[autumn-foxfire]

I got a response for the Qs, theres so much I- they brought up the villain goes here for the manga cover are you kidding, funny they said twice reaching up to pull hawks down, when their thing is to fly free. I adore the twice and hawks scene partly because of the shadow-view shift, hawks face is shadowed showing how twice sees him but then it pulls back and shows what's actually happening, hawks doesn't like this. I dont see hawks kill one to save the many as a "huge big flaw" But. (1)

Shigaraki, ahh I love him but he's such a pain, they bring up his speech thing, he goes on about how the heros hurt their familys to save others, he brings some valid points about sweeping some things under the rug, I hate that they blame that on the heroes as if they have ultimate control over society and the way the system works. "heroes solve the problem by punching" what are they meant to do? Ask the murderer for same tea? i genuinelu don't know how I'm meant to react to these, (2)

Like yeah the system and society is pretty shit, something needs to be done, someone like shigaraki bringing this up is hilarious, he's caused so much pain and panic, he's not trying to reform the way shit works, him preaching about it like he's doing something to fix it is insane. (3)? next ones a long one cause I'm ranting lmfao

Because I'm petty and a lil shit, this person brought up minetas "weren't actually wrong were they, just like the heroes actions" and didn't give any other context, with just that quote and the shot of hawks obvi looks like it's condemning the heroes and hawks. Put it in context like its meant to be read and you get "out efforts, weren't actually wrong were they, just like the heroes actions, I mean just look at this in the end it was all just worthless" MAKES IT READ COMPLETELY DIFFERENT (4)

EDIT (I missed it off by accident XD): To sum up, I feel so lost, my mind hasn't been changed and I'm confused as to the point of all of that. I want to ask more questions and they were so polite but I just, I don't understand, the only thing I can focus on is "the villains have a point about hero society, them taking the mineta quote out of context to fit a narrative, just shigaraki as a whole lmfao, and them ignoring half the scene with hawks and twice. I don't ~ understand ~ but aight.

Kudos to the person being polite even if they are very misinformed (usually I’ve noticed people who hold similar views to be very defensive) but their points are still extremely weak at best.

Also... I want to apologise in advance about my long answer to this ask T-T

First thing first, I’ve already disproven the ‘villains are always in the top corner’ point in a previous post which I will link here. It’s not a thing that exists and is just something someone made up to support their narrative that Hawks was supposed to be the villain in that scene. Most likely Horikoshi was trying to show the fight and Hawks, having wings, would obviously be placed in the top of the cover. Sure we can see symbolism and similar poses in famous artwork but without knowing if Horikoshi had any inspiration from them, it’s all just speculation.

Also, the POV shift is such an important part in chapter 265/6 that it’s so frustrating that so many people ignore it. We were supposed to sympathize with Twice first, we know his trauma and how he feels about being betrayed and then to see Hawks look down at him so emotionlessly? It was supposed to hurt.

However, then the scene shifts and the shadows start to lift from Hawks face. The cold expression Twice thought he was seeing wasn’t a real thing, in fact Hawks was looking at him with an expression of sadness and regret. Personally I think the shadows were supposed to symbolize how far Twice had fallen into villain ideology that he was unable to see that his ‘enemy’ was just as broken up as he was about the confrontation. I think that’s why the cover called it ‘one’s justice’, Twice was blinded by his loyalty towards his found family that he was willing to commit atrocities in their name meanwhile Hawks had to confront Twice and treat him like a villain even though deep down he thought he was a good man and wanted to help him.

It’s not Hawks fault that Twice continued to try and kill people and he had to resort to the only way he could stop him before he was killed by Dabi himself. This is just speculation but I’m pretty sure Hawks had determined that stopping Twice was probably the last thing he would do and he wanted to at least protect the heroes and give them a fighting chance.

As for Shigaraki’s speech, I’ve also brought up in the past about how Shigaraki completely dismisses the villains and their role in modern hero society which was interesting to say the least. As much as Shigaraki can draw attention to some of the issues in hero society (the over-reliance on the heroes being a big one), as long as he continues to ignore what actually causes a need for heroes to exist (villains) there will be no changes made by him. Also, a villain can make valid points but still ultimately be wrong and needed to be stopped, in a manga I fell in love with (thank you again @tozhan XD) the antagonist had a genuine reason and logic behind why he was the villain, however he was still stopped in the end because killing a bunch of people, no matter your logic, if messed up.

And as you said, “heroes solve the issue by punching” except heroes only react to villains, they do not start the fight, they only put an end to it. You can’t expect people to not resort to force when a group of people are actively trying to hurt others. Also that’s just ignoring how many heroes do restrain villains instead of just ‘punching’ them (Best Jeanist is a big example of that but Hawks has shown to do the same by lifting villains up in the air with his feathers and waiting for the police to pick them up). Sure, heroes probably should give villains a chance to surrender however most villains we’ve seen in the manga/anime have already been in the middle of a crime and so asking them to stop would be useless (and the one hero that did try to give a villain a chance to surrender was demonized for it).

Shigaraki really shouldn’t be the mouth piece people use to show everyone society is shit considering he killed a bunch of people first before trying to preach to the heroes (and you can’t even use the ‘it’s self-defence’ logic considering Shigaraki was planning premeditated genocide basically).

Also, I find it hilarious how so many people, especially the people that hate Mineta, were quick to jump on his words to defend their narrative even though in the chapter before that we had Majestic tell the students to not doubt themselves and then afterwards we see Shigaraki’s body breaking down showing them that interupting his operation did have an effect and gave the heroes another fighting chance.

People really need to remember that a Gigantomachia rampage would have happened anyway. Sure we can question the heroes poor planning (I’ve been annoyed by it for awhile now) however all the heroes did was strike first before the villains could. This would have happened regardless of whether the heroes attacked or not so Mineta’s words don’t really mean much when you think of the PLF’s future plans.

The heroes aren’t wrong for responding to an obvious threat and I don’t know why people are acting like they are. The PLF wasn’t a group of innocent people, they’re essentially a terrorist organization planning to kill millions, the heroes needed to react when they were all in one location otherwise cities would have been doomed.

If you want, you could direct the person to this post and see how they respond to my points. I’m kind of curious how they would respond to everything I’ve addressed here to be honest.

[bambamramfan]

Same asker: I am trying to determine, on a narrative level, why the Big Other/Dark Other framework doesn't fit an attempt to describe society under ideology. As I understand your response, the reason my narrative doesn't fit into the schema the Others provide is that 1) society can't be the Big Other (for reasons I don't understand) and that 2) the Dark Other has to be an intelligent collective, not an impersonal force and that 3) the Dark Other has to explain every mistake that the (1/2)

Big Other makes, not just some of them. Is my understanding correct? (2/2)

Well society is getting conflated here.

In reality, society is the term we use to describe all the people who are connected in any way to us. Most of them don’t give a fuck about you. Most of them don’t agree with each other. It’s… just a bunch of people, who are united only be being effected by the same economic or political systems or cultural forces.

But sometimes we fantasize about society as “everyone who will hate us if we don’t follow the rules of propriety.” If you have fear of being judged as a selfish person for not sharing what you have with people you don’t know under the demands of charity, you would probably say it’s society you worry about judging you like that, rather than specific individuals. That collective doesn’t really exist. This would be a Big Other.

You’re right, getting rid of toxic memeplexes like “ideology” (or just ‘the bad ideologies’ if you haven’t bought into everything I’ve said) would probably be good for Real!Society, and make it more likely to have better culture and better political regulation of the economy. But I’m less concerned with these effects (which are indirect and I can’t guarantee) than I am with the personal relief not being under an ideological yoke will give people. I hope without the constant fear of judgment, people are just… nice to each other, and overall fun and creative people, because that’s what we want to be.

Ie, Nazism was bad for the world all over, but right now Nazism is mostly bad for neo-Nazis (who really do live in fear of jews and immigrants) and lifting them out of that would be good for them. It would also hopefully get them to stop voting for Trump. But it’s no real guarantee this would lead to better political results, just probably.

However, if you fear that BigOther!Society currently judges you harshly, then curing it of ideology may seem tempting, but it won’t do any good. You weren’t being judged (in an organized fashion), and you will still fantasize that judgment out of insecurity, even once the corruption has been eliminated. Everything here is a phantom, so real progress can not be made against it. Yes you can get *individual* people to stop judging you, but just by engaging them as individuals, with their own idiosyncratic reasons and motives.

It’s like asking “Why don’t women come to my party?” and answering with “because I must not be making a pro-woman enough environment from them” instead of saying “Why didn’t individual women, such as @girlcalledwasp , come to my party?” and realizing the answer is “Because she doesn’t like Lime Tostito’s which is the only snack I ever provide.”

(Your mapping *can* explain exactly what you think. But since ideological logic (ie anything using the Dark Other/Big Other sort of story) is automatically wrong and contradictory, then this meta-ideology is still itself wrong.)

***

Why does the Dark Other have to be an intelligent collective? (Hypothetically:) Because this is a story, and it needs a villain. We can’t really hate an earthquake, or even capitalism. We can’t build frameworks where those are not only responsible for everything, but actively planning how to infiltrate the smallest corners of our lives and steal from us. We also can’t fight them and feel gloriously triumphant over a wiley foe. The really powerful narratives (read: evolutionarily proficient memes) need that. There’s got to be a Princess to save, and a Villain to satisfying slay, and a way we can be the hero, etc.

(Or, I don’t even know why the ideology-narrative plays out this way, only that empirically, it does all the fucking time. All these political groups end up focusing on a conspiratorial, intelligent, omnipotent-yet-pathetic enemy that is actively deceiving the Good Authority against us. I’m less interested in explaining the why, than noting it keeps happening. Everyone left of Bannon and their brother knew that once Trump took office he would a) fail a lot and b) find some scapegoat to blame.)

***

By everything, I more mean “even the littlest bother about your day”. The everything as it pertains to the human level.

From Winnie the Pooh (when talking about a creature they made up who they fear has stolen Christopher Robin)

Owl: Hmm, what does the Backson do?I’m thinking, I’m thinking, I’m thinking, I’m thinking and now I will tell youThey sneak into your library and scribble in all your booksAll: The Backson, The Backson! We don’t like the Backson!Owl: When decorating your Christmas tree, they tangle up all the hooks!All: The Backson! The Backson! We’re afraid of the Backson.Owl: They spoil the milk, they stop all the clocks, they use their horns to put hole in your socksAll: The Backson’s the one who’s been putting holes in our socks!Roo: Tell us more about what Backsons doTigger: Yes more about what Backsons doOwl: More about what Backsons do? Why don’t we hear some thoughts from youTigger: Maybe they make ya sleep too late