#also aemond would never intentionally try to harm aegon

[ayrennaranaaldmeri]

welp since some of those shitty leaks turned out to be true, those rook's rest leaks are going to end up being true and from the very bottom of my heart i wish c*ndal a very never get work adapting anything again i hope by the end of this your reputation is worse than benioff's and weiss's because it's all you deserve.

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

what do you think of the rumors about Aemond's possible betrayal of Aegon in Ep4?

Oh do I have a lot to say about this one! So here's the thing. A possible Rook's Rest betrayal situation has been a long running theory among F&B readers even before the show. In the book, Vhagar slams into Sunfyre and Meleys from above while the two are locked together fighting, and they all crash to the ground. It's unclear whether Aemond slammed them both because Vhagar was too big to maneuver in a precise way, or if he was intentionally trying to harm his brother. It's ambiguous, but when Aegon is badly injured, Aemond becomes prince regent and declares the crown looks better on him than it ever did on his brother. In Aemond's favor, he did not declare himself king, but it's also the case that in the book, Aegon had a second son, so Aemond wasn't his heir either. Declaring himself king would have been a direct usurpation of Maelor even if Aegon himself died. We also know that at the end of the Dance Aegon wanted statues made of both his brothers, Aemond and Daeron, so Aegon himself likely did not believe Aemond was responsible for his injuries. But it is ambiguous, and book!Aemond does turn out to be not very smart and not much of a team player, so in and of itself, I don't actually mind the betrayal theory so much. But I would prefer it remain a theory, that is, keep it ambiguous, but even if it is an outright betrayal, it's the execution and motivation which concern me.

In the show, Aemond has a very clear second son syndrome. Whether it's true or not, he certainly thinks he's smarter, better, more dutiful, and of course on top of all that, he has the largest dragon. Show!Aegon, on the other hand, is insecure and struggling with depression, alcoholism, and a big case of imposter syndrome. He's impulsive and reactive, wasn't properly prepared to be king, didn't particularly want to be king, but now that he is king, he's desperate not to fail. In the events leading up to the war, Aemond kills Luke in a moment that seems more rash than calculated, and this ultimately leads to Aegon's small son being decapitated by Blood and Cheese in revenge, throwing him deep into grief and rage. On top of that, Aegon is feeling undermined by his council, including Aemond, and Larys is planting the seeds of mistrust between Aegon and his brother. It's absolutely reasonable for there to be some resentment between the two and some unresolved issues that might manifest on the battlefield. Would these issues lead to an actual attempted murder? Eh, I tend to think that, in the spirit of leaving it ambiguous, Aemond might have the passing thought that he could totally "accidentally" allow Aegon to come to harm. He might even hesitate just long enough that Meleys is able to seriously wound Aegon or Sunfyre before he joins in, causing him to feel a great deal of guilt. This is my preferred scenario.

The problem I have is with how the show is framing it so far. I've never been a fan of the way the bullying storyline seemed to humanize Aemond at Aegon's expense, but it now appears as if it's being used as a motivation or justification for Aemond betraying Aegon at Rook's Rest, as well as his general shift to a darker character, which I find cliched and disappointing. At this point Aemond is a grown man by all Westerosi standards, and despite their issues, we've seem Aegon display loyalty towards Aemond more than we've seen him "bully" him. They're siblings, they're going to fight and bicker and tease, but we've seen nothing from Aegon so far that would justify murder. Maybe if your brother is going through the worst thing a person can possibly experience, losing his son in a murder that, while not your fault, happened as a retribution for your actions, perhaps you could grant him some grace, even if he makes some obnoxious comments in a brothel. I've seen so many takes which basically amount to "Aegon had it coming" as if we haven't seen Aegon absolutely distraught over the death of his child, receiving no emotional support from his family, least of all Aemond himself, and spiraling back into alcoholism and reckless behavior. Now is really not the time to get pissy about teasing. It's not about you, Aemond. A child is dead.

And in fact, we've seen Aegon be supportive of Aemond on screen in ways that we generally haven't seen Aemond support Aegon. Aegon speaks up on Aemond's behalf, inviting him into the council when Alicent wants to shut him out, and we've seen him support Aemond's battle plans, even though we know Cole and Aemond have been planning behind Aegon's back. In S1 we've seen Aegon have Aemond's back at dinner with Rhaenyra's family, and going even further back, we've seen Aegon allow Aemond to throw him under the bus about the bastard comments, taking the fall even though he was not the culprit. There is certainly jealousy and rivalry there from both sides, but as much as Aegon is an ass, it is clear he loves his brother.

Also, I think some fans, perhaps because the well was poisoned against Aegon in S1 in ways that his character has struggled to recover from, tend to read everything Aegon does uncharitably and ignore some of Aemond's more questionable behavior, granting him grace that they do not grant others. I rarely see critical analysis about Aemond the way I do about Aegon, so I'm going to be frank here for a moment. Aemond is only the "good" brother to Aegon's "bad" brother because we haven't seen him at his worst yet, but the potential is there for him to be so much worse than Aegon could ever be. Show!Aemond is thin skinned, self-centered, and a bit of a "can dish it out but can't take it" type. Aemond's assholery is more subtle (for example, Aemond's patronizing little "that's a brave thought" to Aegon in council), whereas Aegon's is loud and obnoxious, but Aemond knows how to make his insults pointed and hurtful ("Strong boys" toast, you will die screaming in flames like your father). And look no further than his reaction to Blood and Cheese to see his egotism in action. In this moment when he's supposed to be showing some level of vulnerability with the madame, he's talking about how honored he is that sempai Daemon noticed him. Mind you, this notice is what resulted in the death of his four year old nephew. His "remorse" over killing Lucerys amounts to "I do regret that business with Luke," while immediately following up with his justification, citing how they used to tease him for not having a dragon. Sincere remorse involves examining your own actions without immediately justifying them or centering yourself, and in that moment I felt no remorse from Aemond, or even sympathy for what his killing of Luke might have unleashed upon the family. Aemond hasn't even mentioned Helaena once post-B&C, and you'd think that even if he doesn't feel sorry for Aegon, surely he'd show some sympathy for his innocent sister? And yet, nothing.

So while I can't say it would be necessarily out of character for the Aemond they've been giving us in S2, I don't really like this take on Aemond at all, and I just don't find this supposed grudge against Aegon a particularly compelling justification for attempted murder. While the bullying storyline humanized Aemond in S1 as a child, keeping it going now, as a motive for harming his brother and his brother's dragon, which, lets be clear, would absolutely fuck over his entire faction, is ridiculous and unnecessary, and really kind of saps any goodwill I might have had for Aemond. I don't have any sympathy for someone who was rather mildly teased and decides his brother deserves to die for it, and it makes me feel incredibly sad for Aegon who is just getting dumped on by his entire family to the point where it's honestly kind of hard to watch. There is plenty of drama inherent in the situation already as-is. If this happened because of tensions over Storm's End and Blood and Cheese, it would still be stupid for Aemond to do, but Aemond has never been as smart as he thinks, and it would frame the betrayal in the context of the ways Aegon and Aemond have hurt each other. However, if it is framed as Aegon's comeuppance for being an asshole, Aemond's Joker moment where he goes fully dark in some sort of bullying revenge plot that he decides to enact in the middle of a war? Honestly, forget building gigantic gold covered statues, I'd be burning effigies.

[nrilliree]

https://www.tumblr.com/thekinslayed/745892876790202368/anyone-else-think-rhaenyras-exhausting-wasnt?source=share

And here is the text in question in case you have blocked this user :

"anyone else think rhaenyra’s “exhausting wasn’t it? hiding beneath the cloak of your own righteousness” bit would’ve hit harder if show alicent was actually a vile evil person ? instead it came off as rhaenyra being mean to a mother whose son just got permanently disabled and was trying to seek justice for it???

not to mention this is the same woman who’s served a family she was forced to marry into and in return has been treated like nothing but shit by these blonde inbred idiots ? no? just me? ok"

Alicent fans really have a problem understanding...

Alicent was not trying to obtain justice for Aemond, but for herself and this is seen by the dialogue where she is full of her own fate. Not to mention the fact that she is using this horrible situation to continue what she has been doing for 10 years, namely trying to destroy Rhaenyra and her children, in particular by inventing complete lies like that Lucerys would have voluntarily tried to kill Aemond. She's literally trying to make Luke, a child under 10, look like a murder planner. How is this a manifestation of a mother seeking justice for her son ? I just see a woman using a horrible accident between children to try to gratuitously destroy the woman she declared war on 10 years ago. Not to mention that she is willing to intentionally mutilate a child as a so-called debt for her son's lost eye, as if it was appropriate ? We're talking about a fight between children that got out of hand. How is an adult asking for a child's eye supposed to be a symbol of justice for a fucking accident ?!

Also, how did Alicent faithfully serve the House Targaryen she married ? What dimension do Alicent stans live in ?! She is literally just following her father's wishes. Marry Viserys. Give him male heirs, and then try all these years to put the first born Aegon II on the throne in place of Rhaenyra, the legitimate heir designated by Viserys, the king himself. How does it serve the house you married to go against the decision of your husband and king ?! Not to mention trying to call into question the legitimacy of the Velaryon children, yet once again recognized as legitimate by the family she married. So once again, how has Alicent faithfully served the house she married ? On the contrary, she only goes against their wishes and plots against them, and has been doing so since long before her official entry among them via marriage to Viserys.

Once again, the Alicent stans and TG are delusional.

Surprisingly, I haven't blocked this person yet this time. I know. What a surprise 😂

Rhaenyra was talking to Daemon a few scenes earlier about how she didn't think Alicent was capable of murder, and Daemon replied to her something along the lines of she doesn't know what people are willing to do for power. These were not these words, but the meaning was preserved. And later, Rhaenyra sees that Alicent not only disobeys the king's order, but also tries to attack the child with a knife in such a way that if she had only mutilated him, it would have been lucky, because she would probably have murdered him. And Alicent did it in front of everyone. So what was she capable of when no one was watching? Rhaenyra became convinced that Alicent was responsible for the murder of Lyonel and Harwin. And that's what it says. That Alicent does shameful things in secret, but pretends to be honorable in public, and in this scene she showed her rotten face - someone who will not listen to her husband and king, who will not hesitate to hurt a child and take advantage of her own son's harm in order to achieve something in the name of her own harm. Because that's what Alicen was screaming about - herself.

Alicent never served the Targaryens. She only thought about herself, Otto and the Hightowers. It is as if Catelyn, despite being Ned's wife, still dressed her sons in Tully colors and was loyal to this family. But people are outraged when Alicent is compared to Cersei, and that's what she did…

[lemonhemlock]

I didn't think about him being a knight and having endangered himself before, you're right!

I was mostly thinking along the lines of one of the kids being directly attacked and him probably not jumping at the opportunity to get between that (I feel like he would/could but he'd probably think about whether it's the smartest decision/in favour of his goals whereas Aemond would act rather rash).

Maybe he would protect Alicent without further thought tho (but I am not knowledgeable, I just base my opinions on vibes).

What do you think?

Hi there!

I think Otto gets a little bit of a bad rep in general. He doesn't talk the talk without walking the walk, if you think about it. As I've said, he has already put himself twice in harms' way on the same bridge on Dragonstone - once against Daemon, once against Daemon & Rhaenyra, both times facing dragons, both times ready to throw hands if necessary. He's not hiding somewhere in the background, he's the first to fall if things go awry. Tywin Lannister, another Hand of the King, would have simply sent an envoy, for example, and it's not for lack of courage, as he fights in battle himself to save his family from Stannis.

Which is why I think it's the more notable that Otto went himself, on behalf of the Crown. If he is willing to do that for the institution, to perform what essentially is a ceremonial, albeit (unnecessarily, for him) dangerous act, why wouldn't he protect Alicent and his grandchildren if they were in the way of direct harm?

It's also important to note that he never intentionally placed his daughter in harm's way. In his mind, Viserys is a good man who would never mistreat her (in a way he understands as being significant).

Similarly, I think a lot of this confusion stems from the political climate not being relayed properly to the viewers. Otto fully expects Viserys to change his heir once he has a son. Fandom likes to believe this is evil machination from his part, plotting Rhaenyra's murder years in advance, but most other noble lords think the same thing. Does anyone think Corlys and Rhaenys were trying to get Laena and her future children killed by putting her forward as a potential bride? Does anyone think Rhaenys was secretly plotting to defenestrate Rhaenyra while they were sassing off on that balcony? Jason Lannister shows up from way out west and fully expects Aegon to be named heir as well. People are very confused when Viserys doesn't budge.

Otto is not so unfeeling as to reduce his daughter and grandchildren to canon fodder for his personal ambition. He wasn't expecting this problem in the first place. He is taken aback and has to recalculate and re-calibrate his strategy. That is why he starts insisting to Alicent in private that she also join him in pushing for Aegon as heir. That is why he suggests betrothing Rhaenyra to Aegon. That is why he tells Alicent her children will be in danger if Viserys doesn't switch. He wasn't tricking or trapping her in a future bloody war over succession when he sent her to comfort/distract the king. Viserys is the rogue element here, someone that we in the field of international relations would say is not behaving like a rational actor.

Which is what I think Otto was doing in the eye-gouging trial as well. Taking in information and making a cost-benefit analysis. Aemond's eye was already lost by that point and perhaps he thought there was nothing to be gained politically by further antagonizing Rhaenyra. Alicent was also the one with the knife; she had the upper hand in that moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Otto is flawless here - he is not Westeros' no 1 hugger and comforter. For example, he could have interjected himself in support of his daughter, instead of her slowly losing her mind. To further the Tywin comparison, for all his faults, he would have been raging there at the King alongside Cersei. Otto has a different personality - he works more behind the scenes. Nevertheless, I don't think he would have stood idly by if Viserys suddenly decided to start removing the tongues of his family members.

[navree]

I'm glad that other people noticed that Aegon is repulsed from physical interactions. And this the reason why i will never shut up about how much i hate the SA plotline that they have given to his character. I mean it's really clashes with his established characterization, and it's does make his character inconsistent.

but if I'm going to be honest i will not be mad if they actually have given him a mentality that would align with such behaviour. It will not make his character inconsistent. Book tyrion is one of my faves but let's all be honest here , book!tyrion is extremely misgonystic and an incel literally. So it didn't surprise me when he start raping sex workers in essos , thinking of raping his sister before killing her ... If the showrunners have given Aegon a similar personality/mentality to tyrion then it would make the SA plotline align with his character and nobody would be really shocked.

Very grateful that people actually agree with me that Aegon's got issues with touch and physical intimacy (if homeboy is getting blackout drunk before he can try having sex, then that's a problem that's literally self medicating) and that it wasn't just me going completely ham and talking out of my ass.

That kind of mentality that we see with Tyrion is the kind that, I think, works well in book form, but not in show form. Tyrion's misogyny, as I mentioned in an answer about my thoughts on House Lannister, can genuinely be hard for me to read, and part of the reason why some of the stuff he does and says was toned down as much as it was for the show, in spite of the problems it caused for the character, is that it would likely be harder to watch (I still don't think they should have done it, but the excuse for it isn't something completely unreasonable, just not good). And when you don't have the benefit that comes from books, narration and the character's internal voice and the time to expand on why someone feels that way, and all you can go on is what's done and said in front of you, it'd be a lot less excusable for an audience. Especially when that's how you're introducing a character, without the benefit of seeing the other facets of who they're like first.

It's also important to remember that a lot of Tyrion's issues that have made his misogyny become so outwardly expressive are borne of the fact that he is societally disadvantaged due to being a dwarf and the ableism that's followed him all his life. And while Aegon has his problems, he feels unloved and alone and is a deeply wounded person, emotionally, who needs to use substances to cope with living his life, he's got a lot of advantages and privileges in Westeros, the able bodied eldest son of the literal king. So having a Tyrion-esque mentality might not have been able to be sold quite as well.

I think what they should have done was find a middle ground, have Aegon be a drunkard who doesn't take things seriously and is irreverent and a bit of a jerk to people, but also acknowledge that a lot of that comes from the fact that he's in very real pain (and also touch repulsed), and he does still love his fam and rarely intentionally seeks to cause any serious harm, like how he was a bit of a shit to Aemond as kids, but he clearly didn't mean for it to escalate to the point where Aemond got injured, and when push came to shove immediately backed Aemond up on the Strong bastards thing. And if you wanna show how Alicent relates to a rape victim, just have Dyana's assailant be a Hightower guard, or a minor noble at court that we see Alicent berate, someone who would be in the position to do something like that but could still be yelled at by Alicent, and we'd still get that moment between women to see what she's like as both a woman and a queen.