#also same scenario but Sandor/reader

[devilanon]

one of my more longterm personal projects that I write one shots for occasionally is Simon/rescued cult victim who has no prospects and definitely can’t survive on her own after being raised in isolation. it’s a major crossing of boundaries but he keeps her at home in his flat like a pet because he can’t bear to watch her go through the system, thrown to the wolves and probably ending up homeless since she doesn’t even know how to drive a car or work an oven

[istumpysk]

Hello! Apologies if you're not the person who said this, but I seem to remember you expressing a similar sentiment; if I'm wrong, please disregard this ask. When you criticize the BNFs for persisting with "the same stale, outdated theories" and "not taking any new information into account," what new information are you referring to? All the BNFs I know of are strictly book fans, and when it comes to the books, we *haven't* had any new information in ten years. There have been TWOW sample chapters, and the occasional GRRM interview, but as far as I know, there hasn't been anything yet that disproves or changes the popular BNF theories. I'm not saying there won't be, just that I haven't seen any yet. I'm not arguing with you or disbelieving you, it's just I'm always a little flummoxed by the accusation that they keep sticking with these "ancient" and "outdated" theories, when we haven't had new book canon since 2011, or at least not any new canon that substantially alters anything. I don't agree with them on many things, but I also don't see why they should have to change their opinions if they really believe them and there hasn't yet been anything canonical to disprove them.

we *haven't* had any new information in ten years.

I mean no disrespect, but that’s flat out wrong. We have been inundated with new information over the last ten years.

1. The World of Ice and Fire (2014) / Fire & Blood (2018)

Both of these books establish historical parallels, and serve to foreshadow the current story. In some instances, these stories practically spell out what will happen in the main series.

Again, if you create a theory that incorporates the idea that dragons will cross the Wall, and a new book is released that instantly disproves that theory, it’s time to return to the drawing board, not dig your heels in.

2. The outline (2015)

Have major components of the outline changed? Yes.

Does it still give us insight into his original intention for the story? Absolutely.

Should we take note of the detail that Daenerys is painted as a threat similar to the Others? Perhaps.

Should we pay attention to the fact that the series was always named A Song of Ice and Fire, despite no relationship between Jon and Daenerys, and therefore we can infer it’s referencing dragon fire and icy dead people? Maybe.

Should we take a good long look at the original narrative purpose of RLJ and what storyline it’s meant to impact? There’s an idea.

3. Game of Thrones (2011-2019)

I’m sorry anon, regardless of the liberties they took adapting the story, it’s asinine to suggest we learned nothing from the show.

Whatever you may think of the execution, the writers of the show and the author of the books, are both on record as saying they attempted to remain as faithful to the books as they could.

Reality check, there’s not going to be a scenario where they deviated enough to the point where Daenerys was wrongly assigned antagonist duties. Give me a fucking break.

There’s nothing wrong with using the show to help support or strengthen theories for the books. Throwing out the entire television adaptation is silly.

4. George R. R. Martin

The show gave George a greater platform, and with that came more interviews. With more interviews, came greater insight into the story and characters. To simply ignore the things that he’s said about House Targaryen, Daenerys Targaryen, dragons, Sandor Clegane, Sansans, Jaime Lannister (and by extension Braime), Tyrion Lannister, Theon Greyjoy, etc. is willful ignorance.

It’s not hard to pay a little bit of attention to his words over the last ten years, and figure out a villainous peasant gravedigger, with overinflated importance, is not going to marry House Stark’s future matriarch.

5. The influx of new readers

Due to the show, the book fandom exploded over the last ten years. With that comes new perspective, new theories, and new ways to interpret the text. If someone is still stuck on the same terrible ideas from the 2000s, they’re hopeless.

I changed my mind about Tyrion’s ending yesterday. Today I received a message that made me entirely reevaluate Jaime and Cersei’s ending on the show. That’s the span of 24hrs in the year 2021, anon. I can’t even imagine the level of delusion and self-importance it would take to not budge on any major beliefs for years, despite conflicting evidence.

As for your last point, they don’t have to change their opinions. I don’t care what they do. They are more than welcome to be wrong about the story a second time. I actually really enjoy it.

[secretlyatargaryen]

Ugh asoiaf fandom is so frustrating. I'm so sick of people talking shit abt tyrion when their faces do literally all the same shit but they only hold tyrion accountable. Like multiple people have said that they dont shop tyrion with anyone because of his issues with women but then ship Petyr and sansa or sandor and sansa and its like,,,,, just say his dwarf dick makes you uncomfortable and leave oh my goddddddd

And like I have no issues with people shipping whatever the fuck they want, but if you cant bear to ship tyrion with anyone because his canon flaws make you uncomfortable then you should also be uncomfortable with people like petyr and sandor. It’s not a moral “this is how you should be” its literally a logical “this is how you should be” and the fact that they’re not just shows how fucking transparent they are

I’m far from an anti make no mistake it’s just the hypocrisy that pisses me off. I’m sick of the ableism and I want positive tyrion content I cry

It’s just plain ableism. I don’t care what people ship, and people have different tastes and tolerances and experiences, so some people might be able to handle, say, Sansan, despite the fact that he assaults Sansa, but not like Tyrion because the forced marriage makes them uncomfortable. That’s perfectly fine. What’s not okay is faking moral superiority or acting like your fave is objectively less problematic, or acting like it’s objectively worse for Tyrion to be in a situation with Sansa that he was forced into and which is also abusive for him vs Sandor acting of his own free will.

People also need to realize how ableism comes into play in the way fandom views Tyrion as a whole, even among Tyrion fans. I think a lot of people do this unconsciously because ableism is a learned institution that permeates our society and our thinking unless we actively question it. So when I talk about ableism I’m not saying people are sitting there going “grrr I hate people with dwarfism” (although there is a lot of blatant ableism in this fandom wrt Tyrion because people with dwarfism are largely seen as an acceptable target even among people who consider themselves sensitive to social justice issues), what I mean is that ableism is often present in our thinking even if we don’t realize it, so people do have to question WHY they see Tyrion’s sexuality as so much more threatening and uncomfortable. Shit like that post in, ironically, a livejournal group called “Sane ASOIAF Fans” where the poster was like “It’s a good thing Sandor’s cock didn’t betray him on the night of the battle of the blackwater!” to make some kind of disgusting comparison between a scene of a grown man assaulting a child and a child being raped by his father, in order to make the former seem better and to demonize the latter, is not okay, and a symptom of the ableist idea that even when Tyrion is being abused, he is a figure of disgust or somehow to blame. People are enthusiastic to ascribe malicious or immoral intent to Tyrion even in places where they would forgive others, and that IS a symptom of how we as a society collectively think about people with disabilities, disabled men and in particular men with dwarfism, who throughout history have been used as a symbol for disgust and a threat to idealized feminine purity. That’s why people are more inclined to, say, forgive Sandor on the grounds that he was drunk, but ascribe malicious intent to Tyrion despite the heavy coercion that he is under. It’s also why people are more willing to forgive Jaime for having abusive sex with Cersei, because he fits a masculine ideal and has sex within the confines of a relationship, and it’s easy for us to say that Cersei “wanted it anyway,” vs Tyrion who is both disabled and has taboo sex with women he pays for. There’s a lot of assumptions about how OBVIOUSLY no woman could actually want to have sex with him, therefore it’s somehow worse for him to have sex or think about having sex. This also comes out when people sneer at Tyrion for thinking that he wants Sansa or Shae or anyone to love him. There’s a perception in fandom that NO ONE could love Tyrion so anytime he thinks about wanting love it’s somehow wrong and a sign that he really wants to commit rape or that he’s imposing on women (specifically able bodied, idealized women) by even thinking about them. 

That’s why fanfic writers who want to imagine Tyrion being in a mutual relationship are sneered at, because there’s no way that could REALLY happen, right? Like, I can’t count the many times I’ve heard about how it’s somehow awful to imagine Sansa being in a mutual relationship with Tyrion because it’s “disregarding Sansa’s desires.” What bullshit. Sansa is a fictional character, and her story is far from over. If I write a story in which Sansa desires Tyrion, then it’s not Sansa’s desires that are being disregarded. It is the ableist reader’s perception of Tyrion that isn’t being catered to. Same with the insistence that Tyrion has to be portrayed as a sexual deviant or predator, and this goes for the show adaptation as well as fic. There is NO reason that Tyrion has to be portrayed the same way in the show, or in fanfiction, that he is in the books. No reason. Tyrion is a fictional character, and not a real person. So no adaptation is actually “whitewashing” him because there is no real Tyrion to whitewash. So when people are like, “but Tyrion did x thing!” Okay, great, but in my story he doesn’t. There’s no reason that should be a problem unless you’re really invested in seeing this character being portrayed a certain way, and being invested in seeing fictional disabled people be portrayed as villainous or immoral is not a good look.

Also, within fandom, even Tyrion’s moral behavior does not explain the lack of fic or fandom content. I have been told lots of times that it’s okay for me to write “dark fic” about Tyrion (which is bullshit anyway), but if that were the case, why are there not hundreds of dark fic about Tyrion? Why doesn’t he have a thriving fandom the way Thramsay does, if that’s the real reason people are uncomfortable?

I’ll tell you the reason why, it’s because Tyrion is a dwarf. That’s the reason people are more comfortable with like, all manner of sadistic torture porn but the idea of a person with dwarfism being portrayed as a sexual being, as a romantic being and an object of desire, makes people uncomfortable. That’s the reason Tyrion’s sexuality is exaggerated in fandom (which is so meta because this EXACT THING happens to Tyrion in the books and is used against him in his trial, to make him seem sexually deviant, when his sex life with Shae is, in reality, pretty vanilla.)

It’s also an interesting phenomenon to observe because the way Martin writes the story, Tyrion’s sexuality is on display for the reader. Sandor’s and even Petyr Baelish’s aren’t. Even though we hear about it, we don’t get the details and narrative closeness that we do with Tyrion. That’s why there’s a persistent fandom belief that Sandor doesn’t actually sleep with prostitutes or that his sleeping with prostitutes is somehow innocent, or why there are certain fans who make excuses for even Petyr. We’re told it happens in the books but we don’t see it, so it’s easy to idealize or imagine away. Meanwhile GRRM revels in the details with Tyrion and like, on one hand that’s part of what makes the character revolutionary, because the book deals openly with the sex life of a character who, because of his disability, would usually be portrayed as sexless in fiction, and does not apologize for it. But the flip side of that is that people with dwarfism have also, historically, been treated as an object of fetishism and sexual horror, and for all GRRM imbues Tyrion with humanity, there is something of a voyeuristic quality in the way he writes Tyrion. The reader is kind of like Oberyn going “oooh, tell me more!” and it also must be remembered that GRRM does not have dwarfism and is able bodied, so the way he writes Tyrion, especially with regard to sex, is not exempt from these stereotypes about people with dwarfism.

So like, when people cite x, y, and z thing as a reason Tyrion shouldn’t be shipped with *anyone*, maybe we should question why the story was written in such a way that the only POV character with dwarfism and a congenital disability in general can comfortably be excluded from shipping. Maybe we should question why we allow exceptions for other characters but automatically assume the worst about Tyrion, even when we aren’t in his head. 

And if it’s about Tyrion’s relationships with women, why aren’t there tons of m/m ships with Tyrion? I can probably think of like, ten possibilities off the top of my head which make more sense and have more canon evidence than most widely accepted asoiaf ships. Why is Tyrion excluded from even AU scenarios, if it’s really about what Tyrion does in canon? Why is there so much policing in fandom of even fix-it fics or noncanon fics that want to imagine Tyrion a different way? Fandom is about creativity, and insisting that this character with dwarfism HAS to be portrayed a certain way and nobody else can imagine him any different is extremely uncreative, and as I said before, it is NOT a coincidence that fandom suddenly gets uncreative when it comes to a character whose disability marks him as other.

[blogsmithelenablr]

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