#but words like me/my/I/etc. are all simplified to “mi” (I THINK) rather than having multiple versions

[gaydivorcetual]

Jamaican patois my beloved U are suxh a helpful referwnce

[jansegers]

pilin kepeken toki pona

*Thinking* in toki pona? toki! 2019

I have a question that I suppose is related to the validity of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Since toki pona is a rather limited language in terms of its capabilities to express complex, nuanced emotions, theories, ideas, etc., do any experienced/fluent toki pona speakers find themselves able to think in toki pona directly, or do they think in their native language and then attempt to translate/break it down into simpler toki pona sentences?

I feel like if I only knew toki pona, I would never be able to fully express myself... to myself. Inside of my own head. I am curious if those that experience a "stream of consciousness" directly in toki pona think that their own mode of thinking changes as well, and if this limited ability to fully express oneself is really a problem when speaking at all.

Hope that makes sense and isn't too ramble-y :)

Dresdom jan Tomen

Yeah we can think in toki pona. I don't feel limited when doing it, but it definitely "tastes" different.The Sapir-Whorf thing was already discredited in its strong form. It certainly has some effect, but nothing too big. Not having a word for "communism", for example, doesn't make you incapable of thinking about it, and having extra color words only makes you better at differentiating them by a very small margin (but makes it faster to communicate).

If any, thinking in toki pona makes you take some more time to express abstract concepts because you need to describe them instead of using a word as a precise code for them. I find it makes me understand my own feelings better. I can't just say I'm jealous, I have to say I feel bad because I saw my partner talking to another person an I'm afraid they'll love them more than they love me. Having to describe it makes me introspect more, or choose what not to say because I deem it irrelevant.

You don't have a word for the feeling of comfortable laziness that you have to battle when your alarm sounds in winter and your bed is warm but you know the hallway will be cold. That doesn't make you incapable of recognizing it, experiencing it, talking about it or dealing with it. You just need to take some more time to describe it to others than if we had, say, a word like "wakelayness".

Spanish has the word "sobremesa" for the space of time after a meal that you spend talking with friends and relatives over empty dishes before considering the meal "officially over". Not having that word doesn't make you unable to deal with the concept.

soweli

I like to pretend I am advanced :) I probably speak an older version of the language - toki pona majuna, if you will.

Yes, I can think in toki pona without translating from another language (or I could at one point). For my personal toki pona journey, I had to come to the realization that words in toki pona largely don't behave the same in other languages. In English, we have a separate word for good, a separate word for simple, yet another word for fixing something broken. In toki pona, we have 'pona'. I could be totally off-base here (but I don't think I am), but pona does not just mean 'good' or 'simple' or 'to fix', but rather all three simultaneously. Thus, the translation of 'toki pona' mentally transforms from 'the good language' to something more like 'a [good|simple|fixing] [language|speech-pattern]'. Thinking about toki pona was brought about by dwelling on the proverb 'ale li pona', which is still one of my favorite sayings because it is three words and 9 letters, yet it means so much. That isn't to say that one can't say specific things, however. 'pipi pi ma mama li lili' will always be 'the bug of the motherland is small'.

Also, when I learned toki pona, it was taught that ike li ike. It's good to take things, and break them down into simpler things. Obviously you wouldn't want to be communicating health issues to your doctor, or describing scientific theories in toki pona. This is not what the language is for, and if that is your goal then you're going to have a bad time. But talking about your day, why you are feeling what you are feeling, this is completely possible.

So, tl;dr, not putting toki pona words into small boxes but rather letting them be open, plus shying away from the complex in favor of the simple, greatly helped me express things in the way that I want to, and in a pona way.

[ANONYMOUS] That's a perspective I hadn't considered. I think I wasn't considering the purpose of the language or the benefits of having words with many, if not infinite, meanings. Thanks for sharing!

jan pi nimi ni wawa

I disagree, "pipi pi ma mama li lili" could mean "bugs from the land of parents are young"

I personally would never use ma mama, I would stay "ma pi open mi" but the rules on using multiple pi in a sentence aren't well defined so it's hard to use.

Continue this thread

SGP_Alpha-Centauri

toki!

Apart from the SW hypothesis (which may or may not be true, and I personally wouldn't intend to discuss it either)... it of course isn't impossible to think in toki pona, but there definitely are some difficulties.

Not an advanced speaker/learner myself. But I still did some thinking in it before, as a part of the learning process, and also because of wanting to try something new. As for very simple things like drinking water or eating some food, it was easy. Because even if any particular TP noun is highly ambiguous, one still knows the intended meaning.

But as for anything advanced, like "there is something I like to do now, but before I am able to start, I still need to finish something even more important"... how could that even be worded in TP in an easy way? Just saying. I am very aware of jan Sonja Lang's goals of TP and her intended scope.

For those of us who know something about programming/coding (like the thread starter, I suppose): some programming languages are "Turing complete", others aren't. And Turing completeness has got its human languages counterpart. Do you know what I am hinting to? But this isn't meant as a TP criticism. I do like utilizing that tongue for certain, although limited, purposes.

Dresdom jan Tomen

mi o pali e ijo pona la mi wile pini e ijo suli. pini ala la mi ken ala open e ijo pona.

jan pi nimi ni wawa

"there is something I like to do now, but before I am able to start, I still need to finish something even more important

Are you thinking this to yourself or explaining it for others?

To myself.

mi wile, taso ken ala. mi wili pini.

For saying it to someone else.

mi wile pali e ijo, taso mi ken ala open e ni. la mi wile pini e pali ante pi pona.

jan pi nimi ni wawa

mi pilin kepeken toki pona.

jan pi nimi ni wawa

mi pilin e ni: mi toki tawa mi la mi ken toki pona pona. mi toki e kasi taso. la kasi seme? sina wile ala sona taso mi wile sona a. ni li pona tawa mi taso.

I think of it like this, I can simplify when thinking to myself. I just think "kasi". Which plant? You wouldn't be able to know, but I would know. It would be clear only to me.

Basically, you can think in a language much easier than expressing yourself in a language. Any time you're had something on the top of your tongue or knew exactly what you wanted to say but couldn't find the words? You were thinking fine still, it was only communication that gets difficult. Education using toki pona is hard, theorizing and philosophizing is perfectly simple.

elmanchosdiablos

According to some, you can't be considered fluent in a language until you're capable of thinking in it.

I myself am not there (yet)

bashandy

Sapir-Whorf hypothesis may/may not be tested in monolingual people from different linguistic backgrounds. Toki Pontardawe was used to help jan Sona simplify her thoughts, not as a language to test Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis.

I guess what jan sona meant is that if one is struggling with complex idea then tries to put it in toki pona one would either simplify the idea or drop it. The third option is to drop toki pona itself.

Jan Sona is not claiming control over the language, so currently some try to work on the language to extend its abilities and to test it to discuss various topics. Others try to keep it as simple as possible. In both situations, the language has challenges if left to its own simplicity it may become stagnant as after a few decades people will exhaust its limits. If it becomes more sophisticated it loses its essence.

These are not problems with the the language, it's just a reflection of the complexity of our thinking and of the world around us. I guess it is interesting idea to try to simplify our thoughts for some time. The dilemma comes when takes toki pona out of context to be a way of life, or an ial or a proof of concept.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tokipona/comments/ay4vzh/thinking_in_toki_pona/

#TokiPona #thinking #pilin #anno2019