#chapterhouse: dune

[the-gom-jabbar]

The whole genetics project of the Bene Gesserit may have been dubbed a failure because Paul wasn't a girl but there was nothing stopping Paul and Feyd-Ruatha acting on that sexual tension they had in both book and film.

Paul could have taken Feyd as a third Consort. Just imagine Paul with his Empress Irulan and his wife Chani sitting at his side and Feyd just sprawled on the dais steps just wearing something scandalous like

You were right Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, wasted potential.

[delfiend423]

love seeing everyone who enjoyed Dune Part 2 saying they've never read Dune Messiah and they'll have to read Dune Messiah. Yall are not ready.

I've read all six books. its an absolute mindfuck freak-show waxing-philosophical eon-sprawling walk in the park gang. Buckle the fuck up and plan to at least also read Children of Dune thank you

[sand-realtor]

[that-dinopunk-guy]

And finally the reason I went on a tear ordering old paperbacks on eBay in the first place, and why I ended up getting so many Herberts: I was feeling nostalgic for the old Dune paperbacks I had as a kid, with the Vincent Di Fate and John Schoenherr covers. (Well except God Emperor, I wasn't able to get that one back then, so it's cool to finally have it now.)

I'm not sure I like how scratched up this copy of Chapterhouse is and it's got a sticker on the back that doesn't want to come off without tearing the cover, so I'll probably try to track down a better one at some point. But it's neat to have for now.

[victusinveritas]

[polyamorousmisanthrope]

Might Be Relevant

“Wave the pretty cape. They’ll charge it and be confused when there’s no matador behind the thing. That dulls the electorate just as it dulls the bull. Fewer people use their vote intelligently next time.”

“And that’s why we do it!”

We do it! Does she listen to herself?

“Then you rail against the apathetic electorate. Make them feel guilty. Keep them dull. Feed them. Amuse them. Don’t overdo it!”

“Oh, no! Never overdo it.”

“Let them know hunger awaits them if they don’t fall into line. Give them a look at the boredom imposed on boat rockers.”

Thank you, Mother Superior. It’s an appropriate image.

“Don’t you let the bull get an occasional matador?”

“Of course. Thump! Got that one! Then you wait for the laughter to subside.” Chapterhouse Dune, Frank Herbert

Keep your eyes open, people. The bull just got one. Don't watch the damn cape.

[the-gom-jabbar]

AI Search Engines: Why won't you use us? 😭

Me:

[spockeye-fierce]

[sand-realtor]

[thestarlightforge]

Did Paul’s original vision-path eventually come true? Or did he fail in the end?

**DUNE BOOK SPOILERS TO FOLLOW: DISCUSSING FULL SERIES OF NOVELS**

I just got to the end of Dune: Messiah and then speed-read the Wikipedia summaries for the rest of Frank Herbert’s original novels, and I’m trying to make sense of it.

There’s a lot of plot, of course. But from what it seems like, by going into the desert blind, becoming the Preacher, and playing his parts in Alia’s death & Leto II trying & half-failing to enact his “Golden Path” (which Paul had foreseen also & avoided?), he eventually set the stage for the peace that the perfected Kwisatz Haderach—the thousands of times reborn Duncan Idaho ghola—achieves by bonding with the machine people from the original Butlerian jihad. The reawakened Paul & Chani gholas end up back on Dune, healing the planet for the Fremen; humans have found some semblance of peace with the machines; and a combination of super spice & machines are able to be used for navigation, so the universe is navigable without a melange monopoly that concentrates power & destroys native populations (i.e. the Fremen who got destroyed, except for the gholas of Stilgar, Chani & etc. eventually).

My understanding of the meta-narratives around these books were that Frank Herbert worked in Washington before he became a SFF writer, & he wanted to caution against treating political leaders (like JFK) as messianic figures. Messiah makes this pretty clear, all the way from Paul’s “I hate myself but basically I’m Space Hitler” speech in the 1st half of the novel. Eugenics (the breeding program that lead to his birth), fostering religiosity around it, are all bad ideas.

But if Paul’s original prescience did come true (in books published after Frank’s death) and/or the breeding program got restarted (even if it did have an explicit directive to avoid another Kwisatz Haderach this time)… Doesn’t that undermine the message?

OR did Paul actually escape his prescience when he wandered into the desert & went blind, thus finding himself on a different road because of the unforeseen birth of his son (only his daughter was in the visions)—and thus his paternal line being awakened in a similar way to Alia/Jessica’s maternal line awakening? Was him walking into the desert his final act of giving up, or did he actually foresee that if he adhered to Fremen ideologies that completely, that would be the way to be sure they kept following his path (which he believed to be the way to avoid the most violence) long after his death?

Basically: I don’t think I have it in me to binge all 8 of these lol, or until Paul (or almost any characters I recognize) comes back in the final 2. Where does this ending leave us, in y’all’s opinions? Was Paul a hero whose violence really was necessary to prevent something worse 5000 yrs down the line, or a fraud who sacrificed billions for nothing? Were his actions worthwhile? Did he foresee this ending? Did he break free when Leto II was born? Where do we go from here?

[that-dinopunk-guy]

More new books today.

I'm gonna finish this damn series if it kills me.

(I keep getting stuck on God Emperor.)

[victusinveritas]

Heretics of Dune:

now here's a bunch of clones and some domi-mommies from beyond the stars.

Chapter House:

[aiurarts]

[cloud3francois]

Dune: Why it is called Arrakis?

[385bookreviews]

1.36.2 Dune Messiah by Frank Herbert

SPOILERS

Pages: 282

Time Read: 5 hours and 52 minutes

Overall Rating: 4.5★ Storyline: 3.5★ Dialogue: 4.5★ Characters: 4★

Genre: Adult Science Fiction

TWs for the book: Death, war, violence, pregnancy, drug use, murder, injury, infertility, death of a parent, addiction, drug abuse, grief, colonization, genocide, adult/minor relationship, su*c*de, ableism, body horror, fire, incest, child death, psychosis, abortion, miscarriage, racism, slavery, cursing, cultural appropriation, classism, confinement, execution, religious fanaticism, religious bigotry

POV: Third person

Time Period/Location: 12 years after the events of Dune; On Arrakis/Dune

First Line: What led you to take your particular approach to a history of Muad'Dib?

The book begins 12 years after the events of Dune with a historian named Bronso of Ix being interrogated by a member of the Qizarate, Paul Atreides' religious order. Bronso is to be executed for committing blasphemy, while he argues that Paul committed religious sham in order to bring the Empire under his control.

Princess Irulan, Paul's wife, conspires on Wallach IX with Edric, a mutated Steersman of the Spacing Guild, the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, and a Tleilaxu Face Dancer called Scytale. They plot to remove Paul as Emperor. The Bene Tleilax play a grand part in their plan, as they took the body of Duncan Idaho and made him into a ghola, a remade being that has the body of the deceased person but none of the memories. Irulan reveals that Chani hasn't been able to get pregnant because she has been putting contraceptives in her food.

When Irulan returns back from Wallach IX, she demands Paul give her a child. Paul refuses, but Chani tries to make a case for it.

Scytale shapeshifts into Duncan Idaho to go and see a former Fedaykin warrior who is part of the conspiracy against Paul. Him and his son have kidnapped the daughter of another Fedaykin at Scytale's request. Scytale kills them both and takes the girl.

Paul welcomes Edric into his household, and he brings with him the ghola of Duncan Idaho, who has been turned into a Mentat/Zensunni philosopher with metal eyes called Hayt by the Tleilaxu. Paul and Alia, now 15 years old and a priestess to the people, are shocked by his arrival. Edric insists Paul take Hayt as a gift. Hayt discloses to Paul that Edric intends him to destroy Paul, but he doesn't know how. While he shows mannerisms of Duncan Idaho, he refuses to hold any of his memories or be the man that they once knew. Paul permits him to stay. The Reverend Mother was found aboard the ship that carried Edric, Hayt, and Scytale (disguised as a servant). Paul had banished her from Arrakis so she is placed under immediate arrest. Irulan visits her in her cell, and she reveals that Chani has changed her diet so she can't be drugged with contraceptive anymore, and that Paul has repeatedly denied Irulan's requests to have a child. The Reverend Mother says that Paul and Alia must have a child then to preserve the Atreides bloodline, and that if Chani becomes pregnant Irulan must find a way to abort the baby or kill Chani. Irulan protests and almost refuses, but the Reverend Mother gives her no choice.

The body of the girl that Scytale took from the Fedaykin is found in the desert. Alia and Hayt investigate, but find no clues as to who she is. They head home, and Alia tries to figure out if any of Duncan Idaho remains in Hayt. When they land back in Arrakeen, Hayt kisses her.

Paul is haunted by his visions as he searches for a way to end the Jihad. The only path he sees is for him to disengage, but he can't figure out how to. He meets with the Reverend Mother and makes her an offer: they can have his genes, and he will allow Irulan to be artificially inseminated by him (which is an atrocity to the Bene Gesserit), in exchange for Chani and his children's safety, as she is pregnant. The Reverend Mother insists she must discuss this with the Bene Gesserit before she accepts.

Scytale shapeshifts once again and becomes Lichna, daughter of Otheym, the Feydakin's daughter he killed and left out in the desert. Paul immediately knows that "Lichna" is a Face Dancer, but he feels he must act out exactly what has happened in his visions, as it is fate. Scytale (as Lichna) tells Paul he must go to Otheym's house, as he has a list of names who are involved in a Fremen conspiracy against him. She insists that Chani go with him, but he refuses. He has her confined and put under guard, and then goes to Alia's temple to be met by his guide. A Fremen leads him to Otheym's house, and he is greeted at the door by a dwarf, which goes against his vision. Otheym is immensely sick, and him and his wife are now poor due to the cost of medics. Otheym explains that the dwarf, Bijaz, is a Tleilaxu creation that has imbedded in his memory the names and locations of the scheme against Paul. They urge him to take the clearly prescient dwarf, and Paul leaves, knowing what is about to happen. An atomic hits Otheym's house, and burns out Paul's eyes along with all of his soldier's and guard's eyes. Paul, however, uses his prescience to "see", and he is further deified by his followers.

Korba, a member of Paul's Qizarate, is brought before the other Fremen Naibs and Alia, and is accused of treachery against Paul. He denies it, but Paul appears and reveals that the conspirators stole the atomic weapon from him, which was illegal for him to possess. He is sent back to his cell, and Alia was able to determine which of the Naibs were on Korba's side, further weeding out conspirators.

Hayt goes to interrogate Bijaz, and Bijaz traps him using vocal cues. He reveals that him and Hayt were made by the Tleilaxu together, and puts a command in him that when Paul tells Hayt the words, "She is gone," Hayt is to attempt to kill him. He also reveals that this is intended to see if Duncan Idaho's memories return to him, which if they do, then it will be the first successful attempt to return former memories to a ghola, and they can then use this to try and bribe Paul by offering to bring Chani back to life if he gave up everything and lived in exile. Bijaz then forces Hayt to forget the conversation.

Alia overdoses on spice in an attempt to look into Paul's future but is unsuccessful and is saved by Hayt.

Chani, Paul, Bijaz, Hayt, Stilgar, Alia, Irulan, "Lichna", the Reverend Mother, Edric, and the rest of the court go to Sietch Tabr for Chani's birth. Paul knows what is about to happen, but he stands outside. Hayt discovers that Bijaz has put a command phrase in him and he goes to tell Paul. While they talk, a Fremen comes to tell Paul that Chani is dead but his twin children are alive. He is shocked by the fact that there are twins, even though Chani told him about them, as he only saw his daughter in his future visions. He tells Hayt, "She is gone," and Hayt begins to fight the urge to kill Paul. He tells him to run, but Paul refuses, knowing he will resist. Hayt then remembers everything and becomes Duncan Idaho once more. They go to see the babies and Chani's body, but Paul's prescience begins to fail and he starts to go truly blind. Alia, distraught, brings in "Lichna", who has now revealed herself to be Scytale. Scytale holds a knife to the babies as a threat to Paul, saying the Tleilaxu will restore Chani and he will let the babies live, but only if he gives up his throne and CHOAM holdings and lives in exile. Paul then is able to use the eyes of his infant son, who is fully conscious, to see Scytale, and he kills him with a throw of his knife. Paul tells them to take Chani's body away, and names his son Leto II (not to be confused with his eldest son that died in Dune who was also named Leto II). He names his daughter Ghanima, which Stilgar's wife Harah insists is a bad omen. He then goes to his room, where Bijaz confronts him and Duncan and makes Scytale's offer again. Paul tells Duncan to kill Bijaz before he succumbs, and he does. After this, Paul is fully blind and unable to use his abilities anymore. As is Fremen custom, he banishes himself to the desert. Stilgar executes Edric and the Reverend Mother, and Irulan renounces the Bene Gesserit and vows to raise Paul's children. Alia mourns the loss of Chani and her brother, and begs Duncan to love her, which he says he does.

Paul Muad'Dib Atreides (Mahdi, Lisan al-Gaib, Emperor of the Imperium, Usul, Kwisatz Haderach): I loved Dune Messiah because it used all of the foreshadowing of Paul's fate from Dune. Paul's story is not heroic, but tragic, and while his internal battle could be a struggle to understand at times, it still all came together in a beautiful, heart-wrenching ending.

Chani (Sayyadina, Sihaya): While her death was awful, I loved what Frank Herbert did with Chani in this book and with her relationship with Paul. While everyone says that Chani in Dune is madly in love and blindly follows Paul, I think this book definitely gave her more of her own personality. She is practical and headstrong, and, especially when she is described from Paul's perspective, you can see how much he truly loves and respects her and her opinion.

Duncan Idaho (Hayt): Duncan/Hayt was such a strange part of the book for me, especially as everyone including himself was confused on his identity. He spouted a lot of mysterious vague dialogue throughout, and his relationship with Alia definitely raises some eyebrows.

Alia Atreides (St. Alia of the Knife, Abomination, virgin-harlot): Alia was also an odd character for me, as she is supposed to be an adult in a child's body and yet she acted like a child a lot of the time. I feel like the way she was described and the way she actually was were very conflicting, although I am sure that is part of the whole point.

Storyline: This book was largely dialogue, which could be tedious but I definitely did still enjoy it. While I wish we had gotten to see Paul's Jihad, getting a feel for how it went and how their worlds are now 12 years after the fact is almost like a puzzle. I definitely wish some things had been left out, like Paul and Stilgar walking in on Alia naked, the plotting of incest by Irulan and the Reverend Mother, and Duncan and Alia's adult/minor relationship.

Representation: Scytale is asked if he is a man or a woman, and he says that all Face Dancers are "Jadacha hermaphrodites", meaning that they can be whatever sex they wish to be. The term hermaphrodite is definitely outdated, but I was surprised that there was a gender fluid character who used he, she, and they pronouns throughout a book written in the 1960s.

Summary: I think that this book was essential in driving home Frank Herbert's intention with the original story of Paul Atreides. Dune and Dune Messiah were both broad critiques of capitalism, imperialism, climate change, genocide, colonialism, and, most obviously, religion as a means to control the masses.

Quotes: -"Have you considered what it meant for Alia to be born into this universe, fully cognitive, possessed of all her mother's memories and knowledge? No rape could be more terrifying."-Bronso of Ix (p.3)

-"You think Muad'Dib is yours because he mated with Chani, because he adopted Fremen customs. But he was an Atreides first and he was trained by a Bene Gesserit adept. He possessed disciplines totally unknown to you. You thought he brought you new organization a new mission. He promised to transform your desert planet into a water-rich paradise. And while he dazzled you with such visions, he took your virginity."-Bronso of Ix (p.4)

-"Muad'Dib's Qizarate missionaries carried their religious war across space in a Jihad whose major impetus endured only twelve standard years, but in that time, religious colonialism brought all but a fraction of the human universe under one rule."-Bronso of Ix (p.8)

-"A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation."-Scytale (p.22)

-"The Fremen are civil, educated, and ignorant... They're not mad. They're trained to believe, not to know. Belief can be manipulated. Only knowledge is dangerous."-Scytale (p.25)

-"Religion, too, is a weapon. What manner of a weapon is religion when it becomes the government?"-Edric (p.110)

-"...to endure oneself may be the hardest task in the universe."-Hayt/Duncan Idaho (p.130)

-"I think what a joy it is to be alive, and I wonder if I'll ever leap inward to the root of this flesh and know myself as I once was. The root is there. Whether any act of mine can find it, that remains tangled in the future. But all things a man can do are mine. Any act of mine may do it."-Hayt/Duncan Idaho (p.133)

-"If you need something to worship, then worship life--all life, every last crawling bit of it! We're all in this beauty together!"-Paul Atreides (p.255)

[the-gom-jabbar]